how do you think those filters get better flow while still having the same surface area?? because the tiny holes that the air flows through in the filter are much larger. since its larger it allows larger dirt particles to flow through the filter. on a normal gasoline engine the air fuel ration is 14.7:1 thats 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel, thats what those filters were designed for. a diesel engine runs as high as 100:1 100 parts air to 1 part fuel. i dont know if you have ever seen a powerstroke filter but this is one

 that whole thing is filled with filter media from front to back. now here is a k&n filter for the same truck (i am using an 03 6.0 powerstroke as an example)

now not only is the filter smaller than the original but its got much less surface area to use for filtration but it still claims to outflow the stock filter. theres only one way to do that and thats to have larger pores for the air to flow through in the filter media and that means larger dirt particles can get through. so to shorten this up a bit yes you will get better better performance but in my opinion much less quality filtration. and i used to think those filters were awesome until i started working at a dealership and saw the damage it does to those engines. and with an engine replacement cost of a 6.0 powerstroke around 10k (from a dealership) i would never want to take my chances with a filter like that. Remember i am only attesting to the diesel engines and that this is my own personal opinion.

Scary stats:

a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health &Human Services)

Then consider this:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (Yes... eighty million!).
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT:

NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR .

Alert your friends to this threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

You are only half right...........you have the theory correct but the particulars with regard to the filters is completely wrong.The K&N filter even though it's outside dimensions are smaller actually has a much greater surface area exposed to unrestricted air to intake flow and better "total" filtration. You would have to cut the K&N apart and unfold it flat to measure the intake area and it passes less PPM of contaminants than a stock filter. The stock filter(and yes I have seen then before) is physically larger with more media but this only affects the volume of contaminants it can "hold" thereby giving it a longer service interval than the K&N. Now if people neglect their equipment and don't sevice them properely that is a different story and not the equipments fault.

Restricted or unrestricted it doesnt matter. That air still passes completely through the whole filter to get through the other side. so yes the stock filter has more filter surface area than the k&n does. Can you prove me wrong? If you dont like that example that I used then lets go back to the original question of this post and look at some tests that a guy did for himself. http://http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm  here i think he tested 6 different filters. No this was not done in a lab but i feel like it gets the point across pretty well. The reason I used the diesel as an example is because the problem will be magnafied drastically because it uses a lot more air than a gasoline car does.

Scary stats:

a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health &Human Services)

Then consider this:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (Yes... eighty million!).
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT:

NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR .

Alert your friends to this threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

Tuna Man, what in the world are you pulling with your ram to get that bad of mileage?  My dad has 1996 2500 ram diesel 2wd 5 spd.  manual tranny and used to pull a 30' 5th wheel (weighed 7500 lbs) and got 16 mpg. on long trips  (flat land driving, not up mountains)  He gets around 20-22 mpg when he's not pulling anything.  How fast do you drive? I'd fly out there if I had to spend 1600 dollars in fuel!

16 ft. Avalon "Flat Bottom Girl"

Team Chunky Love member

Actually......yes I can. Think of it this way. You want to filter a dozen shrimp out ot a five gallon bucket of water. First using the material they use for the little bait nets I make a pillow case sized bag that will fit over the mouth of the five gallon bucket and dump the water and shrimp into the bag. Second I use 100 times the material and make a bag that will just fit inside a very long 2 inch pvc pipe. Funnel the shrimp and water into the pipe. Which one will flow water faster????? A little absurd but it conveys the issue. There is no difference in the ability of either one to remove the shrimp from the water. The first has greater unrestricted surface area and will flow more water the second has more filter media and can hold more shrimp but flows less.

This is the danger of listening to wannabe scientist and backyard engineers. I can immediatly see 2 fatal flaws in his work.......

1) Using color comparison.......the oiled filters are going to produce darker residue. He tries to dismiss this by saying K&N is trying to have it both ways but he misstates their answer to the issue. Oiled filters will pass an "insignificant" amount of oil into the system. Filtered particles and some smaller particle that pass the filter will be coated in oil and the will naturally be darker.

2)Now the second is a little different......he uses miles to do the comparison which will not actually measure a filter's ability to filter the air.You should measure the amount of air filtered. If a filter could be 40% more efficient but passed twice as much air it would still pass 20% more particulates into the engine. And this brings up a point that may partially reinforce your original statement......the K&N filtered truck may have their lifespan reduced but not because it is not a better filter but because by increasing performance via passing more air they are ingesting more particulates.

Last but not least if you want to improve your performance but are worried about high levels of dirt and sand or you want to extend you maintenace interval you should use this Filter for the Powerstrokes not the cone filter you showed earlier. Bottom line K&N makes a great product you just don't like them......Ford and Chevy.

2004 Dodge Diesel Auto Trans. Pulling a 37' 5th wheel (3 slides) with the kitchen sink if you catch my drift. Average in ALL terrain.

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I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat"  

Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 

“Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.”

 Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama    My Pictures

thats the main point i was trying to get across. i realize that guy that did his tests didnt have a perfect setup but i used it as an example because it showed real world results of what would really happen if the filters were used and maintained like a normal person. you just said the k&n filter passed oil, isnt that one thing that is supposed to avoid so that it doesnt coat the sensors and cause them to fail?? IE: mass air sensor. and dirt particles arent the only thing that will erode the turbine fluids will too(the oil from the k/n filter) the reason i bring all of this up is because i have seen the damage first hand. and you cant say that the k&n flows better than the ford until you have seen actual numbers (and im not saying it does). ford has their own version of a cold air box out and if i remember right it flows better than the k&n and uses the same style of filter. I am not against k&n like i said a few posts back id probably still use it in a gas vehicle just not in a diesel. i just prefer not to use the oiled type of filters if i can avoid it because of the oil passing through the filters and into the engine.

Scary stats:

a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health &Human Services)

Then consider this:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (Yes... eighty million!).
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

FACT:

NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR .

Alert your friends to this threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

Like I said this is probably going to have to be a Ford versus Chevy or E-tec versus Yamaha argument. Not to be inflammatory but you sound like you have been brainwashed by the Corporate Ford Motor Company Factory Certified Technician Training Instructor.

The amount of oil ingested by a vehicle using a properly seviced K&N filter is INSIGNIFICANT. Like a few ounces every 100,000 miles. Oil can cause a mass air sensor to fail but there are thousands and thousand of cars running around (like my wife's 2003 with 110,000 miles) with mass flow sensors and a K&N filter that have zero issues. The amount of oil they "NORMALLY" pass will not damage the sensors and make them fail. Now if you have someone coating them with a quart every 2,000 miles you might have a problem but like Ron White says you can't fix stupid.

I don't understand why you would use one on a gas engine and not a diesel......Many have turbos or superchargers, mass air flow sensors, higher compression(for gas), etc.... so you are going to have all the same issues. For years and years we have been using oil bath/oiled filters on all kind of engines, diesel and gas, with no problems and did you also know they use K&N Oiled air filters on AIRPLANES???? Extremely expensive and you don't want it to fail..............check it out.

http://www.avlab.com/challenger.htm

All performance comes at a price and will shorten the life of your engine so to a certain extent your right. But your only other choice is to not do anything and live with what you have. I will again suggest that K&N filters in and of themselves will not appreciably affect the life of your engine and in most cases are a "more efficient" filter than the stock configuration (keep in mind they also make stock replacements) in both fitering dirt and passing air. Most people who would put a K&N on their vehicles are looking for more performance. If they are taking their vehicle off road or pulling a 16,000# boat they will abuse their vehicle much more and it is the abuse of the vehicle and other perfomance "enhancments" (like remapping, increased boost, etc...) that are squeezing the life out of those engines.

http://home.stny.rr.com/jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

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I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat"  

Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 

“Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.”

 Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama    My Pictures

Once again Clueless Backyard Engineers conducting Pseudo Science (being kind).

At least they were dilligent enough about documenting their work to expose their FATAL FLAW.......Did you catch it???????????????

Answer: They not only used different batches of dust they used COARSE dust for the OEM and "Mainsteam" OEM replacements and used fine dust for the K&N.

Answer: They not only used different batches of dust they used COARSE dust for the OEM and "Mainsteam" OEM replacements and used fine dust for the K&N.  Go back and read the charts...they used BOTH course and fine on two filters one being K&N and AFE72

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I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat"  

Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 

“Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.”

 Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama    My Pictures

They did TWO different test on the K&N/AFE72....Course AND fine dust. Although they should of tested ALL filters with both medias.

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I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat"  

Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 

“Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.”

 Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama    My Pictures

that is all, carry on...

Exactly.......and I would have no evidence they "cheated" but it is a "classic trick" for this test and I suspect they did test the all with fine dust and didn't like the result. A dirty air filter(but not clogged) is actually a more efficient air filter than a completely clean one due to a thing they call "dirt cake". A  build-up of coarse residue on the filter acts like a prefilter and actually increases it's filtering ability . Coarse dust is a very poor representation of real world conditions unless you are running construction equipment or racing offroad. Some heavy equipment companies like Caterpillar have designed their filters to take advantage of the "dirt cake" effect. I also think ISO 5011 actually specifies that you should use fine dust for automotive engine tests and especially with diesel engines.  Now one can make the argument that the OEM filter is better because it takes advantage of the "dirt cake" effect and the K&N filters which are either a cone or a classic ring are not really designed to do so. But the reality is in the real world unless you are chasing bulldozers and earth movers eight hours a day you will likely never be able to take advantage of the difference.

Here is a little blog for you to read that might be interesting.

http://autoengineer.wordpress.com/

I also tried to link the Caterpillar site but apparently it is down. They have an interesting piece about their standard and high efficiency air filters with respect to the "dirt cake" phenomenon.

Would this not be true of any filter??????

"In the U.S. Chrysler markets factory-approved performance kits for some of its truck engines. The kit includes a K&N filter and the kit's use is covered under the factory warranty. Chrysler would not offer a kit such as that if the K&N Filter could not meet OE filter efficiency goals."

http://www.mopar.com/street/whatshot1000.htm

"In Japan Nissan markets similar factory-approved performance kits for a couple of models that are offered only in the Japanese domestic markets. Like the Chrysler, kits, the Nissan kits include K&N filters."

http://www.vettenet.org/knfilter.html

Keep in mind I haven't ever used a K&N filter....so I'm NOT on the bandwagon for them. Trying to get the FACTS and experience from others.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm a Sagittarius...If you don't want to hear the truth then don't ask my opinion!
Then again I'm a "Vacuous Asshat"  

Political Correctness:
A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 

“Tell me who your friends are and I will tell who you are.”

 Century 25' Mirada 350/260HP "ISLAND LADY" >>>> Calera, Alabama    My Pictures