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Trigger
 
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| To make a real long story short...I have a 2005 F225 that just up and stopped running one day. Cleaned out the fuel/water separator(very full of water and crap) and engine ran great for four more days and very long fishing trips. Coming back to dock on the last trip, motor stalled at low speed after slowing for traffic and then trying to throttle up. Had to get towed in. Got motor to run by squeezing primer bulb. Heres is what we were thinking...and did. Cleaned up fuel and tank, not bad,,,replaced entire fuel line including barbed fittings, hoses, new fuel water separator and Racor filter with water drain bowl, new primer bulb and clamps, new primary filter. Checked for good flow all the way to low pressure pump and have great flow. Engine starts and runs great until VST fuel supply is used up. Thinking low pressure pump is not working and also looks really rusty I replaced it. Suspected filter cartridge may have bypassed also and let trash through the line so I also remove VST and clean tank and parts and replace high speed pump filter...it was at least 60% clogged. Everything goes back together great. After priming empty system with bulb I turn on the ignition and hear the pumps charge the system. Could actually hear the low pressure pump run for about 10 seconds. Motor cranks and runs like a top for about 15 minutes then starts to slow and stutter then tried to stop. Sqeezed primer bulb and kept motor running. Motor runs now until VST empties. Low pressure pump does not seem to be coming on any more so I remove lines and again chase a good fuel flow all the way to the intake of the new LP pump. Nothing comes out of the output side of the new pump at all unless I squeeze the bulb. Its seems like whatever tells the VST is drained while running is not telling it to come on. I look at my manual and see that there is a low pressure pump driver in the wiring harness that seems to power th LP pump. Any of you techs out there have any good advice for someone who just spent damn near $1000 on cleaning up his fuel system and still having the same problem? PS Motor runs damn fine for the few minutes that it does run.
 
David T Navarre, FL  Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console 
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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White Marlin
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| Kenny at ECM is the Yammy man...
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Grouper
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Both fuel pump are controlled by the computer. Check for power to the pump. It should be constant when the key is on. The ground for the pump is controlled by the computer. Check the connections for the pump. I have seen the prongs not make good contact and cause things similar. You could hook up a ground wire to the connection by back probing the black wire from the connection and see if it will run. If it does, you have a connection, wire, or computer problem. I am saying this based on the information given. Note: did you double check the fuses on the engine on the upper port side top?
Davlor Marine, LLC mobile marine repairs, maintenance, and installations 850-777-7303 www.davlormarine.webs.com
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Trigger
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thanks double D for the input. I figured the ECM controlled both pumps but just found out today that after a yamaha 225 four stroke actually dies from water "inhalation" that the ecm has to be reset on a computer. drug the boat to the shop this morning...we'll see what happens next week. meanwhile ,,no fishing for me.
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Sailfish
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Pass Time (6/27/2009)
after a yamaha 225 four stroke actually dies from water "inhalation" that the ecm has to be reset on a computer. .Hey David,, never heard of that one,,, but the 225s are known for the electric lift pump to fail,, i have replaced lots of them,,,,
________________________________________________Kenny Mann Member NRA Almost Anything Computer Owner (co) computer repair and service
Ms Penny Fishing Team video and audio conversions
Emerald Coast Marine vinyl to cd,
4610 Saufley Field Rd
Pensacola, Florida 32526
ph # 850-456-8196
fax# 850-455-8318 Kenny_Mann-ECM@cox.net Sequoiha@cox.net Sales@emeraldcoastmarine.com www.emeraldcoastmarine.com 
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Trigger
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I have heard the same thing Sequoiha about the lift pumps failing. Some techs say that you need to use primer bulb "every" time you start your motor and to have your fuel lines as short and as flat (little lift) as possible. With what I just paid for a new pump and the time I had installing it I may be doing just that. Thanks for your input!
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Grouper
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Sequoiha (6/28/2009)
Pass Time (6/27/2009)
after a yamaha 225 four stroke actually dies from water "inhalation" that the ecm has to be reset on a computer. .Hey David,, never heard of that one,,, but the 225s are known for the electric lift pump to fail,, i have replaced lots of them,,,, I was going wait for the rest of the story on that one and see if something else came up as the problem. Can't reset a Yamaha computer, unless Yamaha has a new program, but we'll see.
Davlor Marine, LLC mobile marine repairs, maintenance, and installations 850-777-7303 www.davlormarine.webs.com
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Ruby Red Lip
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Because of the fact that the Lp pump is not submersed in fuel (unlike the Hp pump), it is a damn good idea to prime it everytime you cold start the motor. The fuel is what lubricates these pumps, they hate to be run dry. There is no way or need to "reset" the pump driver inside the ECM using YDIS. outbrdwrench.
The fix it man!
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Trigger
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Here’s the facts July 2005 Yamaha F225TXR Motor runs like a top since purchase in January this year. One day out of the blue motor stops running while underway at idle speed. Will crank over but not start. We eventually remove fuel/water filter and clean. Reinstall, pump bulb and motor fires up and runs again for three more days including 2 long days 35 miles out in the gulf…no problems…runs like a top. After getting inshore on the last trip we slowed to idle and then neutral to speak to some friends and when we tried to throttle up get back underway she hesitated then died. Once again we emptied the f/w separator but no trash or water. Pumped primer and she started but didn’t run for just a minute. Back at the dock we suspected fuel supply problems so we removed and replaced the anti-siphon valve at the pickup, the fuel line from there to the fuel separator, removed and installed new Racor bracket and filter with sight bowl just to make sure we weren’t pumping water, and new line from bracket to new primer bulb. Hose from bulb to motor already new. Checked connection inside conduit from the 3/8 A-1 fuel line to the smaller 3/8 line and from that line to the primary filter on motor. Changed out that filter as well even though it was clean and in good shape. At this point we pumped the primer bulb to make sure we had good fuel flow from tank and we did. We even changed the o-ring on the fuel filler cap. With everything hooked back up we try cranking her again and she starts and runs about 2 minutes at idle and starts stumbling again. Before it stops we prime the bulb again and she keeps running it seems, as long as we keep squeezing. OK now we suspect that the electric low pressure pump is not working so I purchase and install a new one and also purchase and install a high pressure pump filter just to make sure. Removed VST assembly and cleaned it good. Changed out filter and checked float and needle valve operation and it looked ok. Re-installed everything making sure all hose connections and wiring connections were good. Squeezed up primer bulb until hard and then fired her right up. She runs great for about 2 minutes and dies again. Primed her again and fired her up thinking we still may have had some air in the line we continued to squeeze the bulb. After a few minutes of this we stopped and the motor ran for maybe 20 minutes at idle and then stopped. Thinking we may have a fuel pickup problem we bypass everything and run the motor off of a remote tank. It doesn’t change a thing as it will still only run a few minutes. We primed her again and she ran maybe another 5 minutes at idle and then stopped. It seems that as long as we keep squeezing she will keep running, but sometimes the bulb will get firm and sometimes it is empty. We think this is the low pressure pump intermittently coming on and filling the VST. I speak to a mechanic at a local shop here in Navarre and he tells me that we have to clear any trouble codes before it will run right again as it is still sensing trouble so I take it to him. He discovers that this motor has only flash codes and that it shows no trouble. He claims that after “extensive time spent testing” that my problem is with fuel delivery (knew that already). He suspects the tank pickups are bad because he ran it all day on a remote tank. I go straight to the store and buy a new remote tank thinking ok, something may be wrong with my other remote tank. Nothing changes. Motor runs a few minutes and then quits. Only this time I couldn’t keep it running most of the time by squeezing the primer bulb. The bulb was still hard when the motor quit most of the time so and no fuel would go into the VST. I am wondering now if there is a float and needle valve problem. I will tear that back down again tomorrow and make sure its working ok. I do have another new o-ring! I am by no stretch a marine tech but something is telling me that the new low pressure pump is intermittently working. It seems that whatever tells the ECM to tell pump to come on and go off is maybe getting a bad signal. I know that there is a low pressure fuel pump driver but do not know exactly what its function is. I suspect it senses rpm to kick the pump on and off at low speed and keeps it on at higher speeds. Maybe I’m thinking in the wrong direction and something is wrong with the high pressure side too but right now I am only running it on the hose fitting so I am keeping the rpm’s at 6 to 7 hundred. I did put it in the water a few days ago and ran it at about 1200 to 1500 and it just would quit running sooner unless I squeezed the bulb. Does anyone on this forum have any advice other than taking it to a master tech, which by the way is what I will probably have to do?
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Cigar Minnow
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| As the service manager at a boat shop I can only give you a few ideas to consider. First, think of your motor as your teeth, and a master mechanic as your dentist. How much money have you spent trying to avoid a master machanic and still problem not resolved? At our dealership, we pay Yamaha and Mercury about $18,000 pre year for software, training and manuals. This is why you may find labor rates higher at dealerships. There is for sure a place in the world for non-dealership type shops, but in the long run a master mechanic is a master machanic. P.S. Try a product called 4-power in your fuel. Not HEET or something else. This is a very strong fuel system cleaner we use to clean clogged vst pumps, etc.
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Ruby Red Lip
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| Take it to Kenny Mann (Sequoiha) at Emerald Coast Marine, he will treat you fair. In fact my boat is there now. Good luck with the F250. Steve
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Grouper
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You will need to check for vaccuum in the fuel system, and check for air bubbles with a clear line to see if there ma be a leak. Also use a meter to check for the low pressure pump to come on and off. At low speed, the pump does cycle. When the engine is running faster, it will be on all the time. With everything you have said so far, it needs to be verified that the pump is cycling and pulling fuel, and that there are no leaks or restrictions. While the engine is running, you can hear the low pressure pump cycle every minute or two (can't remember the exact time). You can hook up a tank after the engine filter to see if the unit works after the entire fuel system before the filter has been bypassed ( by the way check this filter to be sure the bowl is on tight and the o-ring is not damaged- seen them not sealed and cause an air leak). Since the filter is after the primer and before the pump, it may be a cause of an air leak. This would be a reason the unit runs out of fuel, but runs when squeezing the primer bulb. I will be happy to look at it also. Check that and let us know what comes of it.
Davlor Marine, LLC mobile marine repairs, maintenance, and installations 850-777-7303 www.davlormarine.webs.com
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Ruby Red Lip
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| Do you have pressure out of the VST? What is the Vacuum before and after the fuel filter. Have you changed the small fuel filter above the VST. it sits between the low press pump and the vst.. Have you checked your fuel pressure regulator? I don't know of any new Yamaha motors that are winky blinky lights anymore all four stroke and HPDI's are to be hooked up to the computer and use YDS. Check all of these and if you don't find a problem then you might want to invest in a knowledgable marine mechanic. Doesn't have to be a Master Mechanic. That just means they have been to schools and been in the business for five years at a dealer.
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Trigger
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| I really appreciate all of the input guys. You all have been very helpful, but the facts are that I have trouble shot this thing for two weeks now and it all comes back to the low pressure pump is not being told to come on. Last local mechanic told me he showed no error codes and that my problem was a clogged pickup tube and dirty tank. Said he ran motor "all day" on a remote tank. I hooked it to a remote tank and moter would still run until the VST runs out of fuel. Again, low pressre pump (lpp) never comes on. Here is what I did tonite. Made me two jumper wires with alligator clips. Unplugged lpp and wired directly to power source one side at a time. First I only jumped the red wire...Lpp didn't run. Second I only jumped the black wire. Lpp never ran.Third I bypassed the entire power system to the pump and went directly to power. Bam. Pump comes on and motor fires off immediately and runs uniterrupted, albeit at idle (700 rpm) for the last two hours, (off of my boats fuel tank who the last mechanic said was clogged up). Again, something is not telling the lp pump to come on. It never comes on when you hit the ignition or any time while it is running. Here is what I have done up until now to eliminate all of the first check items on the troubleshooting chart: 1.new clean gas and clean tank 2.new anti-siphon fitting at tank 3. all new fuel lines and clamps. new fuel/water separator bracket and racor filter with sight bowl and drain valve 4. new primer bulb and clamps 5. new primary fuel filter (no air leaks) 6. new low pressre pump 7. removed and cleaned vst. and hpp, checked for proper float and needle operation 8. installed new hpp filter screen 9. new vst O-ring 10. motor runs great until vst is emptied. Will keep running as long as bulb is pumped. set boat in water at boat ramp and have no problem getting 5400 rpm until vst empties. 11. lpp fuse is good This doesn't seem to have been a dirty fuel issue at all in the beggining. It seems to be an electrical issue from the start whereby the ecm or lpp driver is not turning on the low pressure pump. Does anyone with knowledge of this condition know if there is a test to determine if the driver is bad? Last mechanic "said" he did a winky blinky test and got no codes. Then again he said the fuel pickups were clogged too!
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Sailfish
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It sounds like you may have a fuel pump relay issue,,, or ign. switch,,, I have a control box that we use to test situations like this.. it elimiates the keyswitch and wire harness from the boat.. you should hear the pump come on for a couple of seconds at key on... geve me a call monday and lets talk....
________________________________________________Kenny Mann Member NRA Almost Anything Computer Owner (co) computer repair and service
Ms Penny Fishing Team video and audio conversions
Emerald Coast Marine vinyl to cd,
4610 Saufley Field Rd
Pensacola, Florida 32526
ph # 850-456-8196
fax# 850-455-8318 Kenny_Mann-ECM@cox.net Sequoiha@cox.net Sales@emeraldcoastmarine.com www.emeraldcoastmarine.com
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Ruby Red Lip
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| I would change the driver than I think the part # is 69J-83306-01-00. It is on the bottom left hand side in the pan. If you checked everything else then change what controlls it. If you have a dual engines just swap out the driver from one engine to the other.
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Trigger
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Sequoiha (7/4/2009)
It sounds like you may have a fuel pump relay issue,,, or ign. switch,,, I have a control box that we use to test situations like this.. it elimiates the keyswitch and wire harness from the boat.. you should hear the pump come on for a couple of seconds at key on... geve me a call monday and lets talk....Thanks for the response Kenny. Checking the ignition was the next thing I was gonna try to do. I had my neighbor turn key switch on and off while I listened for lpp to come on. It does not. We ran the motor until it stalled from vst being emptied and then listened for pump to come on when switched on. It never did. When I actually connected it direct to power it was "very" clear that the pump was on. I would love to yalk to you monday and see what we can come up with. I feel like I am very close to finding what my problem is after eliminating so many of the "first checks". How many more things could there be to check? Damn...don't answer that. Hahaha
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Trigger
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metal11 (7/4/2009)
I would change the driver than I think the part # is 69J-83306-01-00. It is on the bottom left hand side in the pan. If you checked everything else then change what controlls it. If you have a dual engines just swap out the driver from one engine to the other.Thanks for the input metal11. That is what I was thinking for my next move...I just hate to spend a wad of money on something I may not need. I almost feel like I didn't need to purchase a new lp pump now. Through all of this I actually have never hooked up power to the old pump. I just assumed it was bad because it wasn't coming on. Reckon how much a driver is? If I had duels I would have swapped driver out already. I thought about trying to borrow one from a shop just to see if it works or not, or maybe buy a used one from scrap yard. Thanks again
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Grouper
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[quote]Pass Time (7/3/2009)
Again, low pressre pump (lpp) never comes on. Here is what I did tonite. Made me two jumper wires with alligator clips. Unplugged lpp and wired directly to power source one side at a time. First I only jumped the red wire...Lpp didn't run. Second I only jumped the black wire. Lpp never ran.Third I bypassed the entire power system to the pump and went directly to power. Bam. Pump comes on and motor fires off immediately and runs uniterrupted, albeit at idle (700 rpm) for the last two hours, (off of my boats fuel tank who the last mechanic said was clogged up). Again, something is not telling the lp pump to come on.quote]If what you are saying is you had the pump plugged in and jumped the wires to the connector and the pump did not come on, then it sounds like the connector is not making contact to the pump. Did you by chance hook a meter to the connector and see if it will cycle to 12 volts or if it shows 12 volts with the key first turned on? If you get power, it is the connection more than likely.
Davlor Marine, LLC mobile marine repairs, maintenance, and installations 850-777-7303 www.davlormarine.webs.com
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Trigger
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DOUBLE "D" & LV (7/5/2009)
[quote] Pass Time (7/3/2009)
Again, low pressre pump (lpp) never comes on. Here is what I did tonite. Made me two jumper wires with alligator clips. Unplugged lpp and wired directly to power source one side at a time. First I only jumped the red wire...Lpp didn't run. Second I only jumped the black wire. Lpp never ran.Third I bypassed the entire power system to the pump and went directly to power. Bam. Pump comes on and motor fires off immediately and runs uniterrupted, albeit at idle (700 rpm) for the last two hours, (off of my boats fuel tank who the last mechanic said was clogged up). Again, something is not telling the lp pump to come on.quote] If what you are saying is you had the pump plugged in and jumped the wires to the connector and the pump did not come on, then it sounds like the connector is not making contact to the pump. Did you by chance hook a meter to the connector and see if it will cycle to 12 volts or if it shows 12 volts with the key first turned on? If you get power, it is the connection more than likely. When both jumpers were used pump was unplugged from motor harness. When I jumped one at a time I had the motor harness wired to first just the black wire and then just the red wire, jumping the unhooked wire directly to battery connections. All of the connectors look well maintained with dielectric grease and look in to be in great shape . I did not hook up meter to red side to check for voltage. I have to assume that there is none there, although If pump is controlled by the ground wire I could still have voltage but just no ground. This why I tried the process mentioned above.
David T Navarre, FL Usually fishing out of East Pass Destin Triton 2486 Offshore Center Console
F225 Yamaha 18'6" Polar Fishmaster center console/merc 115 Please do not support any of the captains or vessels on the list below. http://saveoursector.com/supporters/supporters_full.aspx If you agree with the above, please copy and paste this as your signature as well.
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Cigar Minnow
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| David??? did you ever fix it.. and How did you fix it?? I have the same problem. Not sure if in my case it is the low pressure fuel pump relay. Larry
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Cigar Minnow
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| I had a similar problem, but mine was intermittent. VST would sometimes run out of fuel at low speed; ran great at crusing speed. The problem turned out to be the pressure relief valve on the return line to the low pressure pump. Some times it stuck open causing fuel to recycle through the low pressure pump and not go into the VST. The pressure relief valve can be found tie-wrapped to the low pressure pump(looks like a small check valve). The manual lists it as a check valve, but "online parts suppliers" list it as a pressure relief valve. If your problem is continous, remove it and try blowing air thru it against the arrow. If air goes thru, it's stuck open. You can replace or try cleaning and retest with air. Cleaning, soak and shake it in WD40 and or mineral spirits for 10-20 minutes to remove any build up. I cut my old one apart and found a slight build up of a white/gray substance that looked like fine beach sand. The solvents mentioned did remove the build up with soaking and agitation. This fine build up may eventually cause fouling of the injectors; if my top rpm starts falling, I'll pull the injectors, not a difficult job, and send them out for cleaning.
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Cigar Minnow
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| Pin Fish, I did think of that, but when I put a Voltage meter on the wiring harness to the low pressure fuel pump I got no reading when my partner turn on the start switch. Tried it countless of time still not reading Also when I bench tested the fuel pump I was able to hear the low pressure pump activated.. So, my thoughts is there is a problem with the relay.. Just wanted to see what happen to david?? did he ever fix the problem and how he solved it. Larry
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Sailfish
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Yes it is fixed,, he brought it to us,,, what we found was the ground wire in the connector to the vst fuel pump had a broken lock pin on it inside the connector,, when the connector was plugged in it would push the pin back, so no connection was made,,
________________________________________________Kenny Mann Member NRA Almost Anything Computer Owner (co) computer repair and service
Ms Penny Fishing Team video and audio conversions
Emerald Coast Marine vinyl to cd,
4610 Saufley Field Rd
Pensacola, Florida 32526
ph # 850-456-8196
fax# 850-455-8318 Kenny_Mann-ECM@cox.net Sequoiha@cox.net Sales@emeraldcoastmarine.com www.emeraldcoastmarine.com
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Cigar Minnow
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| Thanks so much for the conclusion.. ;)
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