# Black Snapper Clarification



## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

I see people catching "black snapper" around the piers, docks, etc. They all call them black snapper.

I look up black snapper on the FWC bag limits and it has "Snapper, Black and Wenchman", but no limits.

I look up black snapper on Wikipedia and it says "

*Black snapper* is a common name that may be used to refer to:<UL><LI>_Lutjanus griseus _</LI>[/list]

If you click that link you are taken to the "Mangrove Snapper" article.

On the FWC bag limits, there is also a "Snapper, Gray ( Mangrove )" with a 10" restriction

So can anyone tell me what the proper name is for the snapper commonly caught around here around piers and pilings and docks, called the "Black Snapper" and what is the limit if any? 

I would agree with the many posts that I have seen that say " You need to be a lawyer to interpret the Florida fishing regs". I would add that you probably need to have a degree in *ichthyology*


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

It is indeed a Mangrove Snapper.


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## bluffman2 (Nov 22, 2007)

> *lobsterman (7/14/2009)*It is indeed a Mangrove Snapper.


x2


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

So then Black, Mangrove, and Gray are synonymous I take it


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## Jhoe (May 4, 2009)

Yes. with all the talk I should probably look this up before post, but here goes.



I'm pretty sure Mangrove is 10" minimum, 5 bag limit.



Black Snapper is 10 bag limit no size limit?



the stuff we catch around here at piers in the bay, like Wayside, are Mangrove snapper. not black snapper.



There are plenty of people out there that will argue it and say they are black snapper and there is no size limit. I've also seen the FWC out there a few times. It's only a matter of time before one of them gets popped and I laugh.


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## Coryphaena (Oct 2, 2007)

This is a fish with probably more slang names than others..... the fish in question is the Grey Snapper, _Lutjanus griseus. _Grey Snapper is the AFS accepted common name for the species, and the name under which it is regulated. "Mangrove" is just a slang term, as is "black", "mango", and a new one I just encountered- on the west side of the bay, there are some who call the Grey Snapper "mingo" now. Slang terms can make things unnecessarily confusing.

There is a true Black Snapper, but it is NOT a Northern Gulf species. Thegenuine Black Snapper is _Apsilus dentatus, _and it is a deeper water Caribbean species, bright blue as a juvenile, shaped like a vermilion snapper ("mingo"), and of course black as an adult.

Call the fish whatever you want dockside, but the Grey Snapper and Black Snapper have slightly different regulations, and when it comes to ticket or no ticket, a proper ID of a fish can work in your favor.


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

Now that was informative. BIG THANKS


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

> *Coryphaena (7/14/2009)*shaped like a vermilion snapper ("mingo"),


Now, by mingo you mean mingo, right? Not Westside mingo meaning not a mingo?oke

Talked to Roger last night,I don't have any pictures or video that you were looking for. Sorry.


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## Coryphaena (Oct 2, 2007)

> *JoeZ (7/14/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Coryphaena (7/14/2009)*shaped like a vermilion snapper ("mingo"),
> ...


I mean vermilion, the real deal!!! LOL 

That's OK on the pix Joe- still looking!


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

no she means beeliners.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Oh beeliners. Why didn't you say so?


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

> *Coryphaena (7/14/2009)*This is a fish with probably more slang names than others..... the fish in question is the Grey Snapper, _Lutjanus griseus. _Grey Snapper is the AFS accepted common name for the species, and the name under which it is regulated. "Mangrove" is just a slang term, as is "black", "mango", and a new one I just encountered- on the west side of the bay, there are some who call the Grey Snapper "mingo" now. Slang terms can make things unnecessarily confusing.
> 
> There is a true Black Snapper, but it is NOT a Northern Gulf species. Thegenuine Black Snapper is _Apsilus dentatus, _and it is a deeper water Caribbean species, bright blue as a juvenile, shaped like a vermilion snapper ("mingo"), and of course black as an adult.
> 
> Call the fish whatever you want dockside, but the Grey Snapper and Black Snapper have slightly different regulations, and when it comes to ticket or no ticket, a proper ID of a fish can work in your favor.


there is no doubt that coryphaena is the authority on fish id on this or for that matter any other forum. 

i have lived here for more than 40 years and still called em black snapper wrongly so until just recently. 

they are grey or mangrove without a doubt


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## Florabama (Oct 19, 2007)

Coryphaena, is this a black or a cubera? I always have trouble telling the two apart.


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## Coryphaena (Oct 2, 2007)

That, my friend, is a grey snapper. If you ever shot a true black snapper this far north, I and every other fish biologist on the coast would want to know about it! LOL

The cubera snapper looks similar as a juvenile to a grey, but even as juveniles they are proportioned a little differently.... there is a whole slew of measurement percentage ranges that distinguish them and not everyone wants to sit and measure eye diameter and body depth. One of the easiest characters to see is the canine teeth- in greys the upper canines are well-developed and in cuberas BOTH upper and lower canines are well-developed. Cuberas just have a "bulkier" overall appearance to them. If you get to look inside the mouth of either fish, look on the roof of the mouth for a patch of teeth; in greys the tooth patch will be shaped like an arrow and in cuberas, it will be shaped like a triangle.


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## konz (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Jhoe (7/14/2009)*Yes. with all the talk I should probably look this up before post, but here goes.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Mangrove is 10" minimum, 5 bag limit.
> 
> ...


I've had discussions with people numerous times trying to explain to them that what they are catching are "Mangrove" snapper and not black snapper. I saw a guy fill a cooler once with them ranging from 8-10". I tried to tell him the regs and he argued with me. It took 3 other people to convince him that he might be wrong.


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## Florabama (Oct 19, 2007)

> *Coryphaena (7/15/2009)*That, my friend, is a grey snapper. If you ever shot a true black snapper this far north, I and every other fish biologist on the coast would want to know about it! LOL
> 
> The cubera snapper looks similar as a juvenile to a grey, but even as juveniles they are proportioned a little differently.... there is a whole slew of measurement percentage ranges that distinguish them and not everyone wants to sit and measure eye diameter and body depth. One of the easiest characters to see is the canine teeth- in greys the upper canines are well-developed and in cuberas BOTH upper and lower canines are well-developed. Cuberas just have a "bulkier" overall appearance to them. If you get to look inside the mouth of either fish, look on the roof of the mouth for a patch of teeth; in greys the tooth patch will be shaped like an arrow and in cuberas, it will be shaped like a triangle.


Thanks for the clairification.When you say "a true black," you mean the black you refered to eariler that looks like a vermillion snapper except black in color, correct? Are the three in this pic greys as well?


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## bluffman2 (Nov 22, 2007)

i would say they are grey,s


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## Coryphaena (Oct 2, 2007)

Yes, sir, those are all greys...... and yes the "true black snapper" I referred to is the one that looks like a black "mingo". I wish I had a good picture of a true black snapper- the few times I have seen them I have never had a camera, but this will have to do (though I don't put a lot of faith in line drawings to ID fish):










On the other hand, here's a comparison of a cubera and a grey:



















Cubera is the top picture, photographed on one of our meter-long measure boards. Grey is the bottom picture. Note the canines in the cubera, and though not the most reliable trait- a squared-off tail in the cubera as opposed to a slight fork in the grey (don't use the tailas the sole ID character!).


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

> *Florabama (7/15/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Coryphaena (7/15/2009)*That, my friend, is a grey snapper. If you ever shot a true black snapper this far north, I and every other fish biologist on the coast would want to know about it! LOL
> ...


She said blacks are a carribean species Apsilus dentatus shaped like a mingo, black as adults but blue as juveniles. Like this 

http://www.eol.org/pages/356304


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## Florabama (Oct 19, 2007)

It's amazing how much color variation there is. I've always called them "Blacks," mainly because, as the pics show, they're usuallybronze to almost black in color, but I'm gratefull for the clarification, thanks. Don't know if I can break the habit of calling them "Blacks," but I'll try.


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

I too am grateful and if everyone here talks toevery fisherman they know, thats a lot of people. I bet we could get a good start on wiping out the incorrect usage of "black snapper". At least we dont have them both here that would really be a mess good to know black snapis some weird carribean snapper


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## Florabama (Oct 19, 2007)

> *choppedliver (7/15/2009)*I too am grateful and if everyone here talks toevery fisherman they know, thats a lot of people. I bet we could get a good start on wiping out the incorrect usage of "black snapper". At least we dont have them both here that would really be a mess good to know black snapis some weird carribean snapper


Yes, but before we do that,we'll have todecidewhether it's really a *Grey *Snapper or a* Gray* Snapper.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

Karon, this what you want? Gray Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, "Black Snapper":doh, Mango Snapper.










Black Snapper


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## Coryphaena (Oct 2, 2007)

Grey vs Gray......Now that's funny!  

As I said before, it doesn't matter what folks call a fish between buddies, but regardless of what you nickname it, knowing the proper ID can be the difference between ticket or no ticket for the angler.

From another perspective, knowing a proper ID can help in good management. For example, I send my field aides out to interview anglers. The aides ID, count, and weigh fish that the anglers let them see. I have to rely on the ID skills of my aides in that case, and they are regularly trained and testedin fish ID so I know that their information is correct. The aides also collect information on fish that anglers throw back, and in that case, the aides have to rely on the ID that the _<U>angler</U>_ gives since obviously the aidesare not able to handle the fish themselves. If anglers give slang terms and mis-ID'sfor a fish,it can cause problems. The aides try to keep up on what the slang terms may be, and thenit is up to me when I compile their raw data to follow the paper trail and catch anything questionable before it goes off to Gulf States MFC and eventually NMFS.


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