# Read this is you use a rifled shotgun barrel



## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

I learned something new today. I have been taking a rather exhaustive and extensive class put on by the ATF to become a certified firearm specialist. One of the things that was covered was the legal definitions of shotguns and rifles. The instructor brought out a Remington 870 smooth bore shotgun. He then brought out one of the rifled barrels for the 870 that can be bought at Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, or any other sporting goods retailer and put it on the 870 and asked the class, "Now what do you have?" Everyone replied that it was a shotgun with a rifled barrel. Turns out, there is no such thing. By federal definition under the Gun Control Act of 1968, you are shooting a center fire rifle because of the rifling in the barrel. The instructor warned us hunters to be careful because if caught hunting during a season in which shotguns are allowed but center fire rifles are not (ex small game season on WMAs) a game warden could use the federal definition of a rifle to hem you up. It doesn't matter the ammo or caliber, as the feds don't use that to define a firearm although gun dealers often mistakenly think that a 12 gauge is always going to be considered a shotgun. Ya'll might have known this but I didn't so I thought I'd throw it out there as I have seen many pics in the hunting section of people using slug guns and rifled barrels to take hogs during small game season. If you want to read it you can google the Gun Control Act of 1968 and the section dealing with the definition of a rifle is Ch. 921(4)(c)(7)


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## speckledcroaker (Mar 23, 2012)

Wirelessly posted

I use dynomite lol


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## Five Prongs Of Fury (Apr 15, 2008)

Interesting bit of information.


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## cobe killer (Apr 13, 2008)

a friend of mine has one of those(baretta) and it's bad to the bone. accurate to 150+ yards in 12ga. with and ballistic round. I could see why it would be classified as a rifle.


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## Pushwave (Oct 6, 2009)

Yea, you can knock down a bear with one of those!


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## Jquinn5611 (Mar 28, 2014)

Even though it shoots a Shotgun Shell? I would think you'd have a good argument in court.


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## Chapman5011 (Mar 7, 2013)

Just one more rule we can be penalized for


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

Jquinn5611 said:


> Even though it shoots a Shotgun Shell? I would think you'd have a good argument in court.


If you're shooting a slug, then you no longer have a SHOTgun shell.


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## DLo (Oct 2, 2007)

What about shooting a rifled slug through a smooth bore shotgun during shotgun only period, IE small game season for hogs, someone told me that if it was one projectile and centerfire then you were considered hunting with a rifle, but I don't know if that's correct or not.


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

They use them all the time in the Midwest states that don't allow rifles with no issue. Don't think a game warden is going to push that one.


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## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

It doesn't matter what type of ammo you are shooting, it is defined by the rifled barrel. Even shooting bird shot through a rifled barrel would still be considered shooting a rifle. On the other hand shooting slugs through a smooth bore shotgun is still considered just a shotgun. It will hold up in court unfortunately, we also got a whole pile of case law upholding it. Its no different than a Taurus judge. You can fire .410 shells til Gabriel blows his horn but that is a handgun, not a shotgun.


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## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

Wharf Rat said:


> They use them all the time in the Midwest states that don't allow rifles with no issue. Don't think a game warden is going to push that one.


You're probably right, hell, a room full of 40+ LEO's were even thrown by that one. I'd like to think a game warden wouldn't bother, but I just figured I'd throw it out there for CYA.


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## welldoya (Oct 5, 2007)

Wharf Rat said:


> They use them all the time in the Midwest states that don't allow rifles with no issue. Don't think a game warden is going to push that one.


Exactly. Illinois doesn't allow center fire rifles but you can use a rifled slug barrel on a shotgun.
I think this is splitting hairs and extolling technicalities. I don't think any LEO would actually push this.


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

So if I shoot buckSHOT through a rifled barrel, they would call it a rifle cartridge? Did Bruce Jenner write that law? The shot always knew it was really a rifle cartridge on the inside.....


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## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

I would think that unless hunting on Federal land it wouldn't matter, that it would be up to the state to decide if you could use a rifled shotgun barrel on state lands. Frankly, I think that there are way too many areas the federal government has their hands in anyway. I would never arrest on this issue.


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## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

MrFish said:


> So if I shoot buckSHOT through a rifled barrel, they would call it a rifle cartridge? Did Bruce Jenner write that law? The shot always knew it was really a rifle cartridge on the inside.....


:laughing:Yup, the type of ammo does not matter, its the type of barrel that defines it as a rifle.


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

Wharf Rat said:


> They use them all the time in the Midwest states that don't allow rifles with no issue. Don't think a game warden is going to push that one.


What the gun is classified does not affect what is allowed for hunting by each state.

But I can see one of the Nazi park rangers on Johnson Beach arresting you for using a rifled shotgun barrel (no matter the load) when duck hunting out there.


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## Cynical (Apr 26, 2008)

The reason no one follows the instructor's logic is because shotguns with rifled barrels fit the generally recognized sporting use exception to the definition of a destructive device. In other words, they aren't rifles under NFA they are DD's falling within the sporting use exception.

The instructor arguing they are rifles - in my opinion - is a sad commentary on his level of knowledge. If they were rifles they would be illegal under NFA anyway because of projectile size.


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## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

The Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act are two different things. A shotgun would not qualify as a destructive device as defined in the GCA or NFA:

GCA definition of Destructive Device:
"(4) The term “destructive device” means— " (A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas— "(i) bomb, "(ii) grenade, " (iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, "(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, "(v) mine, or "(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;

The NFA definition of a large caliber weapon in the Destructive Device category and how it relates to shotguns:

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons. The second section of the definition states that any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter is a destructive device. THIS PORTION OF THE DEFINITION SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES A SHOTGUN OR SHOTGUN SHELL WHICH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FINDS IS GENERALLY RECOGNIZED AS PARTICULARLY SUITABLE FOR SPORTING PURPOSES. ATF has issued rulings classifying SPECIFIC shotguns as destructive devices because they have a bore of more than one half inch in diameter and were found to not be particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

The instructor is a 29 year veteran who is tasked with training new ATF agents and LEO’s on this stuff. He isn’t teaching his personal opinions; he’s teaching what the law defines a rifle as. If you put a rifled bore on a shotgun it becomes a rifle as designed above. And even though you can shoot bird shot through a rifled barrel, the purpose of rifling is for stabilizing a single projectile. Contrary to your post, a shotgun under the NFA and GCA definitions is NOT a destructive device. 
I promise I'm not trying to be an ass, I've often said tone is hard to relay when writing/typing. I'm simply trying to make folks aware of one of the many confusing firearms laws out there because I would hate to see a fellow sportsman jacked up over some silly technicality. Like I said above, it is up to the individual states whether or not to allow rifle barrels on shotguns on their lands. It just might be something a person would want to check on before heading off to the woods just in case the state they are in uses the federal definitions.


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## Cynical (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't care if he's Jesus, he gave you misleading information. State law defines acceptable weapons for hunting. No state supports his opinion and in fact, you couldn't even be cited by a state using his opinion.

There are also internal inconsistencies in his own opinion, which I noted. I understand your desire to play lawyer. I do it every day.


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## mongo (Apr 30, 2008)

Not playing lawyer at all, I simply cut and pasted the law for anyone to read that wanted to. You are the one posting your opinion of a person you have never met on a topic which you have probably never had to deal with much given how you just mis-classified a shotgun as a destructive device. I'm not saying I would ever try and arrest on this and I agree with you that as long as you are on state land they get to decide what's legal. I've never hunted on federal land-I don't even know where there is federal land to hunt on. Once again, I simply wanted to inform people that the federal government has a definition of a rifle that MIGHT get someone in hot water. At the end of the day, neither my opinion nor yours matters. If a person gets charged with possessing a rifle (there are other scenarios outside of hunting btw), the only opinion that would matter is that of a judge/jury. I mean if you think about it, the only difference between a rifle and shotgun is the rifled barrel.


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