# Charter Boats May Fish Grouper/Snapper All Year



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*http://www.thefra.org/CTA12.htm*​ 
*Does the sky belong to a pilot? Does the road belong to a limo driver? Can an angler claim ownership of a specific portion of a fishery? The truth is that the fish belong to the fishing public, not a boat owner with a captain’s license. *​ 
*Certain charter captains incuding some who are PFF members, have requested as part of a pilot study to be allowed to fish Grouper and Snapper all year. *​ 
*When you can’t go recreational grouper or snapper fishing on YOUR OWN boat, you WILL be able to pay one of them to take you on their boat. The truth is that the fish belong to the fishing public, not a boat owner with a captain’s license.*​ 
*Recommend you all remember this when and if you choose to charter a fishing trip and choose to charter with a captain that does not seek to "own" the rights to fish for a resource that belongs to the fishing public. *​ 
*http://www.thefra.org/L%20-%203%20EFP%20-%20Gulf%20Headboat%20Cooperative.pdf*​ 

*The Gulf Headboat Cooperative consists of the following members:*​

*a. Randy Boggs*
*27267 Perdido Beach Blvd.*
*Orange Beach, AL 36561*
*(251) 747-4171*​

b. Steve Tomeny
119 Constantin
Golden Meadow, LA 70357
(985) 637-0943​ 
c. Chad Haggert
PO Box 3008
Clearwater, Florida 33767
(727) 446-1653​ 
d. Johnny Williams
Williams Party Boats, Inc.
Pier 19
Galveston, Texas 77550
(409) 762-8808​ 
*e. Cliff Cox*
*P.O. Box 5037*
*Destin, FL 32540*
*(850) 259-2617*​ 
f. Eric Spaulding
Clearwater Marine Enterprises, Inc.
DBA Queen Fleet Deep Sea Fishing
P.O. Box 3746
Clearwater, FL 33767
727-410-8600​ 
g. Richard J. Castellano
Gulfstar Ventures LLC
607 Island Dr
Tarpon Springs, FL 34689
727-204-2601​ 
*h. Ed Simms*
*5405 Ornacoe Ave.*
*Orange Beach, AL 36561*
*251-747-6712*​ 
*i. Tom Steber*
*Zeke's Landing Marina*
*Perdido Beach Blvd*
*Orange Beach, AL 36561*​*251-981-4007*


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

*Although I don't think it would be fair for that to happen, I would be ok with at least some people have a chance to harvest those fish and keep their business open. If I were offered the ability I would jump all over it.*


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## tjwareusmc (Jul 10, 2008)

I dont know that I blame them for trying. Regulation has hurt so many small businesses.


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

Do you have more information? Like what is the ultimate goal of the study?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Turtle and TJ,

You gents are very generous. Wish that you could be generous with just your $$$ and fishing season and not mine. You do understand that these fish will come out of the snapper and grouper allocation that is currently provided to recreational fisherman (charter operators and private boat owning citizens) don't you?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

MrFish said:


> Do you have more information? Like what is the ultimate goal of the study?


 The intent is to better document the viability of a rights-based management strategy that could potentially improve the economic viability and performance of the headboat sector. 

Dear Dr. Bortone:
NOAA’s National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) requests the Gulf of Mexico Fishery
Management Council review the enclosed Exempted Fishing Permit (EFP) application at the
April 2012 meeting. The EFP proposal was submitted by the Gulf Headboat Cooperative (the
Cooperative). They are proposing a pilot study whereby selected headboats in the Gulf of
Mexico will examine the feasibility of an alternative rights-based management strategy.
Headboats in the study would be allowed to fish for red snapper and gag grouper, based on
allocations issued to them, outside the normal recreational fishing seasons. Currently, the
Cooperative consists of nine headboat owners/captains who operate 13 different vessels; more may be added prior to the start of the program. The participants will report daily catches,
working cooperatively with Harte Research Institute. The intent is to better document the viability of a rights-based management strategy that could potentially improve the economic viability and performance of the headboat sector. The EFP, if
approved, would be valid for two years beginning January 2013. I find this application warrants further consideration,​and will be submitting a notice to the Office of the Federal Register for publication to solicit additional public comment.​
Sincerely,
​​​​Roy E. Crabtree, Ph.D.​
Regional Administrator


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## Coastal Cowboy (Feb 12, 2012)

As a truck driver, I pay multi state reg fees, fuel tax fees, highway usage fees, extra money for a hazardous material license endorsement, extra fees for a twic card, and so on, and am inspected on a refular basis, just to drive the same roads you do. If you pay all the fees and taxes they pay, you would want to try to get something for it too.


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## tjwareusmc (Jul 10, 2008)

I will try to do some research for a better understanding of the issue.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Coastal Cowboy said:


> As a truck driver, I pay multi state reg fees, fuel tax fees, highway usage fees, extra money for a hazardous material license endorsement, extra fees for a twic card, and so on, and am inspected on a refular basis, just to drive the same roads you do. If you pay all the fees and taxes they pay, you would want to try to get something for it too.


So should truck drivers should own public access to a highway? 

Do you think that a person who flies down from kansas to vacation in gulf shores and goes fishing on a charter headboat should be able to catch and keep grouper and red snapper when a private boat owning citizen fishing from their own boat and who lives in the local area cannot?


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

The way I read it, it says *"** based on allocations issued to them"*, which to me means that they will have a certain share allocated to them. I can't see where it says that this catch would come out of the recreational catch share. If anything it should come out of the commercial share, IMO. Even if it does come out of the recreational catch share, as long as it is allocated proportionately and doesn't lessen the recreational share by a large amount I don't have an issue with it, it will be good for the industry I think.


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## Coastal Cowboy (Feb 12, 2012)

What i'm saying is the guys who do fly down from kansas and put their hard earned money into our economy instead of hilton head nc should be rewarded a bit. Don't take what i'm saying out of hand here. How much do you pay the fed, state, local, and even to slip your boat in order to go out. Those guys pay through the nose in fees and taxes, and are revenue producers for your local economy.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Ok, read it again. I see where it will come out of the recreational limit, still don't see a huge issue with it.

*On January 1, 2013, Cooperative members would be allowed to land red
snapper and gag grouper for the duration of the calendar year or until the Cooperative’s quotas for
red snapper and gag grouper are used up.*
To ensure 100% catch accountability and to enable a transparent monitoring system, the
Cooperative would adhere to strict protocols to track each fish caught and landed during a
headboat trip. As a participating captain is leaving the dock, he/she would "hail out" using a VMS
device or by calling in. The captain would receive a confirmation number for that particular trip.
This confirmation number would be entered into the iSnapper computer application (see section on
data collection below). Before returning to the dock, the headboat captain would enter the species
and number of fish caught into the iSnapper system, which will also collect approximate GPS
location to identify fishing zones. At the end of the trip, the captain would use the iSnapper data to
print out a receipt for each individual customer, which would include summary information such as
species and number of fish caught, the date of the trip, and the name of the vessel.


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## Bay Ranger (Aug 25, 2008)

I sent emails to all of the members of the council. Here is what I sent:


Sir/Ma’am,

I strongly oppose the Exempted Fishing Permit submitted by the Gulf Headboat Cooperative (Cooperative). 

The Gulf of Mexico fishery resource belongs to the the general public and should not be allocated to any specific group with special privileges granted to that group. Since this Cooperative purports to service the the recreational fisherman this cooperative should be subject to the exact same rules and regulations every other recreational fisherman must abide by - especially management closure of the season.

Further, I disagree with the benefit of the stated goals of the Headboat project, in particular goal 2. I fail to see how this meager data collection effort can effectively be extrapolated to assess the impact of the entire recreational fishing group on the overall Gulf of Mexico fishery.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

sniperpeeps said:


> The way I read it, it says *"** based on allocations issued to them"*, which to me means that they will have a certain share allocated to them. I can't see where it says that this catch would come out of the recreational catch share. If anything it should come out of the commercial share, IMO. Even if it does come out of the recreational catch share, as long as it is allocated proportionately and doesn't lessen the recreational share by a large amount I don't have an issue with it, it will be good for the industry I think.


 
It will come out of the recreational allocation. Understand that the below text is their write up and what they are stating....How do you know what a fair allocation would be and what assurance can you provide that the allocation will be fair to the local fishing public? 
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C. Since the headboat captains will be harvesting within the recreational quota, there will be no additional impacts to the red snapper and gag grouper fisheries. The recreational fishing seasons for non-participating vessels will not be affected by this EFP, because the participating vessels will catch the same proportion of fish under this EFP that they caught
during prior seasons. The recreational sector as a whole could benefit from reduced discards and accurate, real-time monitoring of catches by participating vessels, given that one management problem observed in that sector is frequent exceeding of catch limits. Moreover, the EFP itself could help reduce overages in the recreational sector because the
participating vessels would not be contributing to any excess harvests during the general recreational open seasons.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Bay Ranger said:


> I sent emails to all of the members of the council. Here is what I sent:
> 
> 
> Sir/Ma’am,
> ...


Thank you sir.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

The "Pilot" program is a very dangerous road to go. In New England NOAA used the "Pilot" program for the latest Catch Shares disaster to 'expand' it without the MSRA required 2/3 referundum.
The claim that the full fledged program was not a "New" program, but merely a expanded version of an existing program. As such ANY attempt to put a "Pilot" program into the Recreational Sector has every potential to be treated as NOAA has already set precident. It may start as a Headboat "Pilot", but at some time there would have to be a separation of sector allowances, and that of course comes along the permit lines. Allow this "Pilot" scheme to get its foot in the door, and NOAA if allowed will impose it against the clear majority, without vote as they have already done. The Gulf IFQ made it in with a vote.......only after eliminating the majority of permit holders from participating in a referundum. 
Any wonder why most people do not trust the NMFS, or the 
groups that have wormed their way into this process? ​


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Coastal Cowboy said:


> What i'm saying is the guys who do fly down from kansas and put their hard earned money into our economy instead of hilton head nc should be rewarded a bit. Don't take what i'm saying out of hand here. How much do you pay the fed, state, local, and even to slip your boat in order to go out. Those guys pay through the nose in fees and taxes, and are revenue producers for your local economy.


 
People like myself and you, if you own a boat, provide an income for the workers and support businesses such as local bait and tackle shops, local trailer manufacturers, boat builders, and marine engine repair shops on an annual basis.

Imagine if all Gulf recreational fishing had to be done from a charter boat, what then?


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## Bay Ranger (Aug 25, 2008)

During the time I was composing and sending my email to the list, I see that there were a number of posts stating that they really didn't see mch of a problem with the proposal. M perspective of this is it is the camel's nose under the tent". 

First, NMFS need to get away from of their "voodoo" science, including this one, (see goal 2) and get down to really managing the fishery as it should be. That means not according to the gospel of Dr. Roy.

Second, this pilot only begs another pilot submitted by another self interest group that seeks to further fragment the recreational fisherman. We should be coming together not fracturing.

Finally, why should a special group of headboats get special privileges? What about all of the other headboats? May-be we should expand the pilot to include them too? OOOOPS, kinda sounds like a sector separation "thingee" huh?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Bay Ranger said:


> During the time I was composing and sending my email to the list, I see that there were a number of posts stating that they really didn't see mch of a problem with the proposal. M perspective of this is it is the camel's nose under the tent".
> 
> First, NMFS need to get away from of their "voodoo" science, including this one, (see goal 2) and get down to really managing the fishery as it should be. That means not according to the gospel of Dr. Roy.
> 
> ...


Exactly they way "they" want it to go.


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

markw4321 said:


> Turtle and TJ,
> 
> You gents are very generous. Wish that you could be generous with just your $$$ and fishing season and not mine. You do understand that these fish will come out of the snapper and grouper allocation that is currently provided to recreational fisherman (charter operators and private boat owning citizens) don't you?


*The way I see it we won't have ANY access to Snapper in a few years so if there is a way to prove that the Snapper are not becoming exstint then go for it. As little as five or 6 years ago I remember having a 6 month or longer Snapper seaon and to be honest up to the last day of those seasons I was catch as big Snapper as the first day. I beleive the whole thing has to do with money just like most things if you follow the trail up. We have a total tonage limit for the fishery which we share with the commercial guys, IMO they are trying to eliminate the rec side so the export revenues increase. All about the money.*

*All in All a one month season is as good as none at all. Take the days your working and then factor in weather and how many days of fishing does the average rec fisherman get to harvest Snapper? I know I can go any day of that whole month and last year I was able to get out 6 times and thats more then most of my friends, and that whopping 2 fish per person is BS as well. For such a short season we should be able to keep at least 4. Hell , I know that maybe 50% of the ones released die anyway.:blink: Or get eaten by Flipper or Cudas.*


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Hmm*

*At one time or another, I've been on each side of this matter. I have to say, anchored next to a head boat, that is catching fish and keeping them;* *while I'm required to toss all of mine back, sounds kinda of bias.*

*Anyone up to date on those IFQ's on the commercial side? I do know that many of those IFQ's were bought up by a few individuals/corporations. Aren't they often the folks that have been in the fishing business* *for years? Those same folks may have owned or still own head boats/charter boats today???

Just some things to consider.
*


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## Bay Ranger (Aug 25, 2008)

C'mon folks, If you feel that this proposal is wrong send something the the powers that be". Make your voice known to them. Debating on this forum will have little effect on their decision. Perhaps enough email from the little people will cause them to stop and think.


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## Caddy Yakker (May 21, 2011)

Bay Ranger said:


> I sent emails to all of the members of the council. Here is what I sent:
> 
> Sir/Ma&#146;am,
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

TURTLE said:


> *The way I see it we won't have ANY access to Snapper in a few years so if there is a way to prove that the Snapper are not becoming exstint then go for it. As little as five or 6 years ago I remember having a 6 month or longer Snapper seaon and to be honest up to the last day of those seasons I was catch as big Snapper as the first day. I beleive the whole thing has to do with money just like most things if you follow the trail up. We have a total tonage limit for the fishery which we share with the commercial guys, IMO they are trying to eliminate the rec side so the export revenues increase. All about the money.*
> 
> *All in All a one month season is as good as none at all. Take the days your working and then factor in weather and how many days of fishing does the average rec fisherman get to harvest Snapper? I know I can go any day of that whole month and last year I was able to get out 6 times and thats more then most of my friends, and that whopping 2 fish per person is BS as well. For such a short season we should be able to keep at least 4. Hell , I know that maybe 50% of the ones released die anyway.:blink: Or get eaten by Flipper or Cudas.*


It is about the money but it has nothing to do with proving snapper are not "becoming extinct."


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## Austin (Sep 30, 2007)

I would think a year round1 1-2 per person per day regulation would be fine for both recreational and commercial fisherman, and would not put a dent in the snapper population. Those things multiply like rabbits. I don't know about you, but I like fresh fish. I don't like to freeze any of my catch. 2 good fillets is more than enough for a hearty meal for one person. Keep in mind the snapper is most likely not the only species that will end up in the box. If i have extra, it goes to family/friends the same day. The "rule makers" are @#$% idiots. But I have to admit that they did a great job with the redfish population rebounding over the years.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Captdroot said:


> *At one time or another, I've been on each side of this matter. I have to say, anchored next to a head boat, that is catching fish and keeping them;* *while I'm required to toss all of mine back, sounds kinda of bias.*
> 
> *Anyone up to date on those ISQ's on the commercial side? I do know that many of those ISQ's were bought up by a few individuals/corporations. Aren't they often the folks that have been in the fishing business* *for years? Those same folks may have owned or still own head boats/charter boats today???*
> 
> *Just some things to consider.*


Sir, you are sharp and on target.

If you follow the trail back basically what has happened is the the commercial fisherman who obtained commercial Gulf snapper/grouper IFQ's circa 2004/2005, some of whom are dual permitted as charter captains, have aligned with a group of charter fisherman who have formed an alliance to push for IFQ's and sector separation in the charter industry. 

Suspect that their planned endstate is to one day be able to trade commercial snapper/grouper Individual Fishing Quotas back and forth with newly minted charter snapper/grouper Individual Fishing Quotas if they are able to bring charter snapper/grouper Individual Fishing Quotas to fruition. 

http://www.charterfisherman.org/
[SIZE=+0]The Charter Fisherman's Association was formed by a group of Charter for Hire fishermen , for the Charter for Hire industry and the Millions of recreational fishermen who rely on the Industry across the Country.

[/SIZE]
The fundamental goal of the CFA is to achieve sustainable and accountable status for our fisheries in a way that will increase all user groups’ access to our nation’s natural resource.


This goal is essential for the long-term outlook of recreational fisheries and the businesses and communities that rely on recreational fishermen to come to their shores to fish on charter for-hire vessels.

Current fishing rules hurt anglers, fishing businesses, and our nations fisheries, by severely limiting fishing with short or even closed seasons, while promoting wasteful discards due to outdated management practices. Moreover, the rules also fail to manage the fishery effectively. The CFA will work to meet the mandates set by congress through the promotion of fishery management practices that are beneficial to the American public, the fishery in general as well as the fishing industry.

The U.S Congress and the Management Councils have created several ways for recreational fishing groups and others to advocate for new management options. The Charter Fisherman’s Association is working towards long-term solutions to increase fishing time, improve businesses, and ensure a sustainable fishery.



SECTOR SEPARATION INFORMATION AND DOCUMENT PAGE ADDED AND OPEN TO EVERYONE TO SEE - CLICK HERE TO GO TO THE CFA SECTOR SEPARATION DOCUMENT PAGE. If you have information you would like us to post to the sector separation information page you may email it to us with a request to add it.


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## redfish99999 (Feb 11, 2008)

The more i learn about charter boat captains, the more i dislike them....

Listen to them on the vhf bs channnel and you'll hear a bunch of jerks that think they own the seas, do not respect recreational fisherrmen and even have disdain for their customers......

Basically, glorified deckhands that have passed a very easy captains test....i did easily... and somehow think that qualifies them as masters of the seas


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

redfish99999 said:


> The more i learn about charter boat captains, the more i dislike them....
> 
> Listen to them on the vhf bs channnel and you'll hear a bunch of jerks that think they own the seas, do not respect recreational fisherrmen and even have disdain for their customers......
> 
> Basically, glorified deckhands that have passed a very easy captains test....i did easily... and somehow think that qualifies them as masters of the seas


I wouldn't let a handful of guys sway your opinion about a large group of Captains....

On another note, this just shows the true colors of some people. I understand survival financially, but the writing has been on the wall for over 10 years that regualtions were coming. I lose a lot of respect for someone who trys to take snapper from a recreational angler for their own benefit.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

redfish99999 said:


> The more i learn about charter boat captains, the more i dislike them....
> 
> Listen to them on the vhf bs channnel and you'll hear a bunch of jerks that think they own the seas, do not respect recreational fisherrmen and even have disdain for their customers......
> 
> Basically, glorified deckhands that have passed a very easy captains test....i did easily... and somehow think that qualifies them as masters of the seas


On the flip side, there are a lot of fantastic charter captains.


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## Bert (Apr 13, 2012)

Coastal Cowboy said:


> What i'm saying is the guys who do fly down from kansas and put their hard earned money into our economy instead of hilton head nc should be rewarded a bit. Don't take what i'm saying out of hand here. How much do you pay the fed, state, local, and even to slip your boat in order to go out. Those guys pay through the nose in fees and taxes, and are revenue producers for your local economy.


I would think that the local boat owners put way more into the local economy than a guy from Kansas, or a charter boat business.

Local Mechanic, local bait and tackle shops, West Marine, taxes and whatever else I'm missing.

Some boat owners may say it's not worth having a boat to fish anymore when we can't keep very many fish.


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## lbhuntley (Oct 6, 2007)

Mark, seems to me the question should be: "How can private recreational fishermen impartially allocate their quota?" If this can be accomplished, private recreational could fish year round.


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

markw4321 said:


> It is about the money but it has nothing to do with proving snapper are not "becoming extinct."


*I agree, that was a bit of sarcazm. There has never been a shortage of Snapper as long as I've lived.:blink:*


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## chicon monster (Mar 7, 2012)

What's the point in for paying 100 a person to catch. A few fish on aa charter boat when you can eat when you can go to joe partisan and spend $30 to get the same amount of fish.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

lbhuntley said:


> Mark, seems to me the question should be: "How can private recreational fishermen impartially allocate their quota?" If this can be accomplished, private recreational could fish year round.


LB, yea well certainly the allocation provided to the headboats will be completed impartially. 


If it has to be this way (which it doesn't), rather than allocate shares of the recreational fishing total allowable reef fish catch to headboat operators, why not allocate it to individual anglers? 

Then each person could decide which headboat they wanted to charter with, or if for example they wanted to just catch their fish from a kayak.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

What about charter boats witout a federal permit that fish and catch red snapper and grouper in Florida state waters. Will they get an allocation?


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*snapper*

bad idea all the way around it will be as corrupt as a Texas county sherriff in no time. How long will it take to shorten our season cause we are running out of snapper again? dont trust them one bit. The big head boats are part of the problem no the solution.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> If it has to be this way (which it doesn't), rather than allocate shares of the recreational fishing total allowable reef fish catch to headboat operators, why not allocate it to individual anglers?
> 
> Then each person could decide which headboat they wanted to charter with, or if for example they wanted to just catch their fish from a kayak.


I would imagine it has something to do with the ability to track and manage the effort. The charter boats have all the license and all a lot to lose if they screw it up….. The average rec boat owner just has his fishing lic. and his boat. How would the officials track and manage a kayak, ot a 20 foot rec boat? The honor system? I think not…..


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Realtor said:


> I would imagine it has something to do with the ability to track and manage the effort. The charter boats have all the license and all a lot to lose if they screw it up….. The average rec boat owner just has his fishing lic. and his boat. How would the officials track and manage a kayak, ot a 20 foot rec boat? The honor system? I think not…..


 
We are getting off base with repsect to the fairness of the issue described that is under consideration which is an allocation of fish to individual headboat operators, but Ok let's go there. 

here is a strawman system.

- any individual fisherman who desires to catch red snapper and grouper in the Gulf must purchase a stamp issued by the federal government.
- We know there will be an allocation in total pounds of allowable catch. the total pounds of allowable catch / average weight per fish = Number of fish to be allocated.
- Number of fish to be allocated / the number of individuals holding a stamp = number of fish tags distributed to individuals. 
- individuals who purchase the stamp recieve fish tags in the mail. 
- Fish tags distributed to individuals must have tag with fish caught or they are fined etc.

The accounting system pays for itself via the cost of the stamp. 

Why do the headboat operators need an allocation of their own? Should not "the people' get the allocation?


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

good idea, but this may be a way to relieve some of the pressure on the fishery over the 2 month period. Even the charter boats will not fish every day of the year. Just thinking outside the ole box. Who knows what the answer is, I know there is a mad rush starting 1 June and ending 40 or so days later. Parking lots above the structure. A lot of fish will be taken and a lot of the smaller ones will be eaten by flipper during the season, but if it were spread out over the entire year, I think there may me more breeder size fish. Heck, I am just typing, I don’t know anything. I do not think its fair, only if everyone could fish all year. but then you would see folks coming back in with full limits every day. the fishery would get raped until it was gone....


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## Bay Ranger (Aug 25, 2008)

In this thread I hear a lot of "belly ache en" about what should or should not be done, or what the feds intent is or is not! The simple fact is that the Gulf Headboat Cooperative has submitted a proposal that will be acted on by the council. I hear nothing from those folks opposed to the proposal that say that they have submitted an email to the council that they oppose the proposal.

*Get involved! *Take some time and voice your opposition to the proposal to those specified in the FRA ( http://www.thefra.org/ ) announcement.


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

*Take heed!*

EVERYTHING in the proposals of these people has been advertised to come out of the recreational fishermen and women's share. Don't let the smoke they blow fool you! Charter with Captains that realize that these resources belong to the public not a select few!


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Realtor said:


> good idea, but this may be a way to relieve some of the pressure on the fishery over the 2 month period. Even the charter boats will not fish every day of the year. Just thinking outside the ole box. Who knows what the answer is, I know there is a mad rush starting 1 June and ending 40 or so days later. Parking lots above the structure. A lot of fish will be taken and a lot of the smaller ones will be eaten by flipper during the season, but if it were spread out over the entire year, I think there may me more breeder size fish. Heck, I am just typing, I don’t know anything. I do not think its fair, only if everyone could fish all year. but then you would see folks coming back in with full limits every day. the fishery would get raped until it was gone....


No one is advocating the raping of the fishery.

You don't see or don't believe what is coming down the road out of this pilot program study?


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## Knockdown (Oct 26, 2008)

Fishing now is getting like hunting was back in the late 1800's when meat(commercial) hunters controlled the game and the individual(recreational) had little game to hunt.

What did they do? Did away with commercial hunting and gave it all to recreation. Didn't take long for farming to fill in the loss of game.

Just a thought!


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

I must not, I don't really don't feel like debaiting this right now.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

The head boat coop is way ahead of all other charter boaters IMO on getting there own sector or there own catch share. Why? Well they have at least 15 years of everyday catch data to back up there plan. Yes they fill out head boat survey data everyday on there catch and have been for many, many years. Myself as a charterboat owner/operator has 0 data for the 25 years I have worked on a charter boat just as you recreational guys have no data for the many years you have fished. 
I have about lost all faith in fish politics and no longer go to any gulf council meetings, I support some plans and don't support others, which I have found out that it really don't about to a hill of beans what I support or think.
I do wish that one day a for hire charterboat business man was recognized in some way other than recreational for hire. We are neither recreational or commercial. We are not recreational because we have to abide by the more stricter laws with our federal reef fish permits( meaning if grouper season was open in state waters but closed in federal waters we can not keep grouper). We are not commercial IMO because we don't sell fish, but we all do have commercial licenses from the state on our boats, but we have no commercial boat catch quota. The charterboats are all stuck in the middle and need there on sector there is no doubt about that.
One more thing you guys need to remember when you go bashing charterboats. We don't get to keep any fish! We take recreational fishermen that have no boats fishing, they/yall keep the fish. We are no more than a platform to take you guys fishing if you choose to go, a bus driver if you will. I also guarantee you that very, very few of us are getting rich. I have 3 paid for charterboats and I squeak by a living like any other hard working 40 year old with a college education, that has put everything that they have and are into there trade. One bad hurricane and I will be running a chain saw again trying to make slip rent and house notes.


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## Clayton_L (Jul 5, 2011)

tjwareusmc said:


> I will try to do some research for a better understanding of the issue.


That's not how we do things around here. Just pick a side and stick with it hell or high water!


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*some one,some how*

*Some one, some how has altered my post. When I came on the forum ten minutes ago, I did not sign in. It showed some links below the end of my post. I did not post them. I never post links. 

Now, after I have signed in, the links are some how gone from my post.

I will contact the administrator right now.
*


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

The sad thing is that it looks to me that in the end-

private boat owning gulf recreational fisherman are going to end up fighting each other in line at a local wal-mart trying to obtain a red snapper or grouper tag so that they can catch and eat one. 

Driven by $$ at the higher levels these regulatory actions and regulatory plans are related and coming in the next 10 years unless something changes in a big way. 

*http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/04/17/rob-walton-peter-seligmann-transcript/*

*ANDY SERWER:* I want to ask you, Rob, a little bit about your family foundation and the work that you all are doing, because I think it's under-known in this country. You guys fly below the radar, and I think you like it that way a little bit. You've increased your profile a little bit over the years. But can you talk about what you've been focusing on in terms of sustainability and conservation? What areas specifically have you been focusing on?

*ROB WALTON:* So, the family foundation is focused on three general areas: education reform largely where we are very active, our delta area of Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi, and our local region, that's the second, and then environmental, which is new within the last 10 years. It's been taken up by a third generation. We have eight young folks from 40-something, early 40s down to the mid-20s, and they really are the ones who are taking up certainly a great interest in that, all of us on the board.
So, in the environmental area we concluded that an area that's kind of underserved with the foundation interests was marine and freshwater, and so those are the areas we focused.
With CI we've done big projects in Raja Ampat part of Indonesia, that's the Papua Province of Indonesia in the Coral Sea, extraordinary area of marine diversity, and also a big project called the Eastern Tropical Pacific Seascape, which is four countries marine areas that includes Galapagos and Cocos and Coibas, Coiba Island off of Colombia, also activity in the Philippines and some others. So, CI has been supportive of us there.

_*In the U.S. we work in the water quality issues and other issues in the Gulf of Mexico and fisheries issues, sustainable fishing, largely related to catch share programs in the U.S., which have become very accepted over these five years or so that we've been working. I don't know how much we've been a catalyst for that but we certainly have been supporting it. *_And finally the Colorado River watershed is where we have quite a bit of activity.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> The head boat coop is way ahead of all other charter boaters IMO on getting there own sector or there own catch share. Why? Well they have at least 15 years of everyday catch data to back up there plan. Yes they fill out head boat survey data everyday on there catch and have been for many, many years. Myself as a charterboat owner/operator has 0 data for the 25 years I have worked on a charter boat just as you recreational guys have no data for the many years you have fished.
> I have about lost all faith in fish politics and no longer go to any gulf council meetings, I support some plans and don't support others, which I have found out that it really don't about to a hill of beans what I support or think.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

First off I don't like the idea of this poilt program,for just what going on right now. Someone said a local rec fisherman does more for the local economy, I have too call b/s A chater boat owner spends more money in expenses than most make in a year. The fisheries council wants sector separation,not charter owners. When it was first brought up for public comment, the rec sector was all about it until the charter boat owners told you that you wouldn't have much of a season at all thats what they wanted,private boat owners out number charter boats a thousand too one.We have been fighting this battle when the recreational sector didn't knew there was a battle too fight. WE are a platform for recreational fishermen nothing more.Most on this forum know who I am,I take offense to being called a ******* that think's I own the gulf,how rude we are that me getting my license is no big deal,that any person can do it. first you have to serve on a boat of over 30 ton more than 365 day's too get a hundred ton license.Two, you go threw a background check threw all law enforcement agencies. I think if we were, how we have been portrayed on a earlier post we wouldn't have a license., Like someone posted earlier,If you don't like the rules or proposals get involved I would like to have some help.Quite complaining and insulting the industry that I am in.


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

*Pilot program study!*

Realtor you are I assume a generous man who doesn't even have a dog in this fight and I respect that. I am telling you and others that your right to fish in YOUR GULF IS UNDER SEIGE!!!!!
You can't make anything out of it but what it is! These people want "for the betterment of their own business" to take away your rights to fish in the Gulf so they can make a living off a "public resource!" You know that isn't proper much less legal! But if you let them they will do it! I have MANY dear friends in the charter business and I cherish all of them but this is WRONG!!
The list posted above of Captains that still know that what I believe is right is one that anyone who calls me will get set up with a trip, the names not on this list although still friends of mine won't get hooked up and I get calls everyday!!!


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## Crab Man (Oct 21, 2011)

The headboat owners aren't the ones screwing us, it is the federal regulators.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

capt mike said:


> Realtor you are I assume a generous man who doesn't even have a dog in this fight and I respect that. I am telling you and others that your right to fish in YOUR GULF IS UNDER SEIGE!!!!!
> You can't make anything out of it but what it is! These people want "for the betterment of their own business" to take away your rights to fish in the Gulf so they can make a living off a "public resource!" You know that isn't proper much less legal! But if you let them they will do it! I have MANY dear friends in the charter business and I cherish all of them but this is WRONG!!
> The list posted above of Captains that still know that what I believe is right is one that anyone who calls me will get set up with a trip, the names not on this list although still friends of mine won't get hooked up and I get calls everyday!!!


Capt Mike, we all have a dog in this fight. anytime one group of "fishermen" tries to take control of the natural resource that all of us "fishermen" use/rely/enjoy on has a dog in the fight. thats all.


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## Ringo Redux (Jul 7, 2010)

Despite the fact that I'm a recent entry into the world of serious fishing (the last 3 years), I have grown up on the gulf coast my whole life. My dad was a commercial fisherman for a while, a diver for a while, and a recreational fisherman almost genetically. I agree with the sentiment that we all have 'a dog in the fight.' 

The pilot program sounds like a slippery slope. While it shouldn't be opposed that local businesses should be given every opportunity to succeed, those opportunities can't come at a cost to private, nonconcerned citizens. Whereas life isn't fair, there is real money and real opportunities for the recreational public at stake. That being the case, if the pilot program were to be amended such that the year-round harvest for headboats was to come out of the commercial catch, and the findings could be applied as evidence supporting a broader season for recreational fishermen, then I think more of us would support it. But, without those mandatory contingencies, I would stick behind the, 'why can't I go in my boat, but you can go in yours just because you charge people to do it?' line of thinking. It simply doesn't make good sense for the public at large. 

Also, it's a great way to make charter captains (down the road, were the program to expand) persona non grata among the fishing community.

-R.


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## dockmaster (Sep 27, 2007)

If this was truly going to be used as a study, the government should have used a LOTTERY system where all charter/head boats had the same chance of being chosen. After all, the government is after results. 
This cooperative smells of good old boy, back room politics and will taint what ever actual results are published. I guess this is another sell your buddy out and follow the money deal.

Billd


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

dockmaster said:


> If this was truly going to be used as a study, the government should have used a LOTTERY system where all charter/head boats had the same chance of being chosen. After all, the government is after results.
> This cooperative smells of good old boy, back room politics and will taint what ever actual results are published. I guess this is another sell your buddy out and follow the money deal.
> 
> Billd


Don't believe that a final decision has been made by the federal fishery regulators on the pilot program. 
My understanding is that the proposal was drawn up by the group that represents the listed head boat captains and that the headboat captains listed on the documentation are a part of that same group.

Pff member adrenaline out of orange beach is one of the captains on the list.
If he is not busy lobbying the gulf council tonight maybe he will stop in and give us all the what's and whys as to the groups intentions.

Again, i am sure the path to approval has been greased, but this not a done deal yet. That is why members here were urging others to email the gulf council in opposition.


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## gator7_5 (Oct 4, 2007)

I think its a great idea... if all of the profit from the out of season trips goes to RFA to fight Dr Crabtree.


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## Crab Man (Oct 21, 2011)

Realtor said:


> Capt Mike, we all have a dog in this fight. anytime one group of "fishermen" tries to take control of the natural resource that all of us "fishermen" use/rely/enjoy on has a dog in the fight. thats all.


But what everyone doesn't understand is that this is the federal governments relatively new approach to managing fisheries. Catch shares and IFQ's are all about allocating a natural reasorce to certain individuals. Most such fisheries don't even have recreational involvement (think alaskan king crab or gulf shrimp), but in the ones they are involved in they get hammered right along with most everyone else.

The commercial fishermen didn't want these type of regulations over all, and even the ones that do get blessed with huge IFQ's didn't set the sytem up that way. I see these headboat guys the same way, just fighting to keep a piece of their fishery that the feds are trying to take from just about everyone.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Crab Man said:


> But what everyone doesn't understand is that this is the federal governments relatively new approach to managing fisheries. Catch shares and IFQ's are all about allocating a natural reasorce to certain individuals. Most such fisheries don't even have recreational involvement (think alaskan king crab or gulf shrimp), but in the ones they are involved in they get hammered right along with most everyone else.
> 
> The commercial fisherman didn't want these type of regulations over all, and even the ones that do get blessed with huge IFQ's didn't set the sytem up that way. I see these headboat guys the same way, just fighting to keep a piece of their fishery that the feds are trying to take from just about everyone.


It ain't new. Been used in commercial industry for years and put a lot of the smaller commercial operators out of business wherever it has been applied.

This pilot study would be the first step toward recreational catch shares and that is new for the gulf fishery. Bottom fishing Charter captains without an allocation would go away out of business or work like share croppers using the allocation provided to them at a cost by larger share holders resulting in a smaller charter bottom fishing fleet. The
Private fisherman would get what is left over.

You state these guys are fighting to keep a piece of their fishery. Looks to me like they are fighting to get a piece of everyone's fishery. After all they are the ones making the proposal not the government. How is your WW II history ever hear of the Vichy French. Look it up if not you will enjoy the read and the analogy.


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

Guy's we are recreational fishermen in the same boat.For years have been trying to get people too stand up and fight for our rights.we had a motion before the council to make from the beach to 20 miles of shore a exclusive area where you couldn't fish with more than two hook rig's,to push the commercial boat out further because they can keep snapper 12 inchs, after a commercial boat work's a reef public or private how many 16 inchers can you catch afterwards. I was at this meeting in new Orleans with another capt. we were the only two there too support this,but there were in excess of 40 commercial capt.s there too oppose it. The commercial sector has legal representation at every meeting. that's in part why they have a IFQs and get 51% of the yearly quota. less than 600 boat get 51%. There one that I know that if he could get the rec. sector closed he would,he s already on of the biggest share holders in the IFQ program. It was the commercial sector mostly responsible for over fishing. They stick together attend most meetings. Everybody that fish has a dog in the fight, I encourage all my customers too get involved right letters get on the nmfs mail in list. There alot of people who come here too fish and hate all these new regs.Nothing will change until the public outcry is so great that it can't be ignored. Fighting among are selves is exactly what then want,I know you have heard the old saying divide and conquer.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

tbandit said:


> Guy's we are recreational fishermen in the same boat.For years have been trying to get people too stand up and fight for our rights.we had a motion before the council to make from the beach to 20 miles of shore a exclusive area where you couldn't fish with more than two hook rig's,to push the commercial boat out further because they can keep snapper 12 inchs, after a commercial boat work's a reef public or private how many 16 inchers can you catch afterwards. I was at this meeting in new Orleans with another capt. we were the only two there too support this,but there were in excess of 40 commercial capt.s there too oppose it. The commercial sector has legal representation at every meeting. that's in part why they have a IFQs and get 51% of the yearly quota. less than 600 boat get 51%. There one that I know that if he could get the rec. sector closed he would,he s already on of the biggest share holders in the IFQ program. It was the commercial sector mostly responsible for over fishing. They stick together attend most meetings. Everybody that fish has a dog in the fight, I encourage all my customers too get involved right letters get on the nmfs mail in list. There alot of people who come here too fish and hate all these new regs.Nothing will change until the public outcry is so great that it can't be ignored. Fighting among are selves is exactly what then want,I know you have heard the old saying divide and conquer.


How do you feel about the head boat captains pushing for the program?


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## Crab Man (Oct 21, 2011)

markw4321 said:


> It ain't new. Been used in commercial industry for years and put a lot of the smaller commercial operators out of business wherever it has been applied.
> .


That's why I said "relatively," as in the last 30 years. It's the management system they are using from here on out. I personally hate it, but recognize what is going on.


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't like it at all. they are trying too make us fight one another.We are stronger together than apart.Talking about a insult I can't keep a fish too take home for table far at all. Run a boat have for many years, can't keep anything to take home too the family,guess there's always joe patti.


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes bad management, have told the council they are going too have to break the gulf down in zones and manage it right. we could say that the yellow tail population has been badly overfished. I have fished all my life and have caught one in all these year's. Truth is they are native too this area, that why we don't catch them here. But our fishery is managed gulf wide. Responsible management put's them out of a job.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

tbandit said:


> I don't like it at all. they are trying too make us fight one another.We are stronger together than apart.Talking about a insult I can't keep a fish too take home for table far at all. Run a boat have for many years, can't keep anything to take home too the family,guess there's always joe patti.


I feel you and nderstand where you are coming from. 

I can't wait till I can sit next to a head boat with a tourist who wouldn't know what a gag grouper was if it bit him on the arse and he gets to keep them and I have to throw mine back.


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

I understand. how do you like the fact that in state water in south florida, grouper are open right now? But you can't keep on here.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Crab Man said:


> That's why I said "relatively," as in the last 30 years. It's the management system they are using from here on out. I personally hate it, but recognize what is going on.


Did you read the post where I mentioned the Vichy French in WW II? An extreme over the top analogy I know as no one is dying, but a way of life with reapect to the gulf fishery as compared to WW II but what do you think about the parallels?


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

They got what they wanted, because of legal rep. threat of a law suit.They messed up when starting to moritorem on charterboats,had to reopen the open access till they got everything right,me and one other capt. made that happen. they were going to put alot of people out of the fishery. We were the only ones to go too the meeting in new orleans. Lack of representation is all of our problem. I started too feel like the little boy with his finger in the damn long ago.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

tbandit said:


> They got what they wanted, because of legal rep. threat of a law suit.They messed up when starting to moritorem on charterboats,had to reopen the open access till they got everything right,me and one other capt. made that happen. they were going to put alot of people out of the fishery. We were the only ones to go too the meeting in new orleans. Lack of representation is all of our problem. I started too feel like the little boy with his finger in the damn long ago.


Captain I for one appreciate you fighting the good fight. As you can see even here on a recreational fishing forum half of the posters don't see any problem with what is being done by regulators. 

All it will take is for a generation or two to come and go and there
Will be few left that remember what it was like to access the gulf fishery with some level of personal freedom. 

From here on a much larger national scale who knows where our society is headed.
There are local city governments in Oregon for example that are passing laws that you have to own a minimum of five acres of land before you can build a house on your property. The intent is to force everyone who cannot afford 5 aces into the cities so they have to live in a condo situation. I can't imagine that happening in the south but look what we as a people are letting the government do with OUR the people's fishery.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*This is no different than any else, "Fellas, follow the money". Who owns the biggest fishing boats? Who owns more than one boat?* *Do the marinas own more than one boat? I doubt that this is coming from owner operator captains. Sadly, many are jumping on the band wagon. They need a pay check twelve months of the year. If you can afford a $250,000+ fishing vessel, you are not likely to be* *on that boat taking tourists fishing.* *These folks are corporate, and probably number less than 50. Not hard to grease some palms with 50 x $2500= $175,000.

And so it goes throughout this great USA.
*


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Captdroot said:


> *This is no different than any else, "Fellas, follow the money". Who owns the biggest fishing boats? Who owns more than one boat?* *Do the marinas own more than one boat? I doubt that this is coming from owner operator captains. Sadly, many are jumping on the band wagon. They need a pay check twelve months of the year. If you can afford a $250,000+ fishing vessel, you are not likely to be* *on that boat taking tourists fishing.* *These folks are corporate, and probably number less than 50. Not hard to grease some palms with 50 x $2500= $175,000.
> 
> And so it goes throughout this great USA.
> *


I will respectfully say that you don't know what your talking about.


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## Dragsmoker (Aug 15, 2011)

Hopefully they will see there is a abundant amount of snapper. I wish the desk warriors will live our freedom alone!


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*OK*



Fairwaterfishing said:


> I will respectfully say that you don't know what your talking about.


*Just what is so "incorrect" with that comment?*


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

Game Fish Status


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

There are local city governments in Oregon for example that are passing laws that you have to own a minimum of five acres of land before you can build a house on your property. The intent is to force everyone who cannot afford 5 aces into the cities so they have to live in a condo situation. I can't imagine that happening in the south but look what we as a people are letting the government do with OUR the people's fishery. 


this is already happening in the south and has been for over 25 years it is very common in the Carolinas and in VA moutains. this is inacted to prevent destruction of the veiws and stop the random trailer parks from poping up all over the place. 


as far as the snapper fishery its a dead issue recreational fisherman will be the first to suffer the loss. Followed closely by the commercial guys who will be working for minniumum wage being paid by purdue seafood or conagra groupers.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I will respectfully say that you don't know what your talking about.


*Hmm, I see your web page indicates/states that you own THREE charter boats. One 40 Footer and takes up to 22 passengers*, *one 38 Footer that takes up to six, and you also own and operate a bay boat for charter.** Again, what is **so "incorrect" in my comment. You surely don't operate all the three on the same day.

The above represents a small piece of Roy Crabtree land. This will come down to, "Money talks and bull shit walks". Sadly, it always does.

You sporties are in his way. Pull aside and let the big operators through. Guess that also applies for the 21-30' boat industry, too.
*


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

*pilot programs*

Some history;

EDF created the Cape Cod Hook and Line Fishermen's Association (Hookers) in 2003 and got a "pilot" IFQ program approved for them to try out. The Magnuson 2006 hijack stated that any "new" catch share programs were required to have a referendum. NMFS/EDF pointed to this pilot as an "existing" program, thus exempting it from referendum status. They also created multiple sectors - one for the IFQ participants, and another for everyone else called the Common Pool. I believe within 2 years, they slashed the allocation of the common pool to almost nothing, and those fishermen were eliminated from the fishery. 

In any case, they have succesfully established Catch Shares all over the NE region WITHOUT any required referendum. There is an appeal going on as we speak;
http://www.gloucestertimes.com/fishing/x611952330/Cities-fishing-suit-says-NOAA-ignoring-law

EDF created the Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders Alliance, the Gulf Fishermen's Association, and the Charter Fisherman's Association - ALL of these entities were at the Gulf Council meeting pushing for these 2 pilot programs. Both of these programs are designed to get their foot in the door to implement Catch Shares in the Gulf of Mexico recreational fishery, and to replicate here in the Gulf what they did up in the NE - *to get Catch Shares implemented without the required referendum.*

Days At Sea will require Sector Separation, which is crucial to Catch Share implementation. They may start out with DAS, but history has shown that down the road they will claim it is not working and switch to IFQs. Jarvis, Hickman, and other CFA leaders are salivating at the potential $$$$ to be made from the inter-sector trading that is bound to happen. Miglini, another CFA officer, owns every possible type of commercial IFQ possible - he leased out 30,000 pounds of his red snapper quota last year for $3.25/pound - that's close to $100,000/year just brokering the fish. *It does nothing for the resource, creates an un-needed layer of cost to the consumer, but sure creates a substantial revenue stream for those in the system. *

For those of you who have been following the SOS Plan/CFA leaders, they have claimed all along that Sector Separation has NOTHING to do with Catch Shares, yet it is they, the CFA, who are sponsoring this headboat Catch Share pilot program which requires Sector Separation. *Can you say doublespeak?*

The outgoing Bob Gill and Kay Williams got Sector Separation on the agenda for tomorrow to get approval to go out for scoping - EVERYONE needs to weigh in on this, if it indeed does go to scoping, and state their opposition to this very bad idea.

The headboat IFQ pilot is totally illegal, as the 2nd year of this pilot allows inter-sector trading of quota between the headboats and commercial snapper people. The law is very clear that ANY catch share program would require a referendum and approval by 2/3 of the headboat permit holders, but they are attempting to implement this IFQ program anyway, WITHOUT the required referendum. I don't believe the law exempts "pilot" programs from this requirement, and when I brought it up, Crabtree and his atty could not come out and say it WAS legal.

This is even more damning when considering that the Gulf Council/NMFS was given last year, *as part of the record*, *signed, notarized affidavits* from *95%* of all Texas headboat operators, *100%* of the Missippippi headboat operators, *50%* of Alabama and LA headboat operators, and a few of the FL headboat operators (although I understand that the large majority of them are also against IFQ implementation). These captains UNDERSTAND what IFQs are designed to do - REDUCE the number of boats on the water. So, *75%* of the headboat permit holders from TX to AL weighed in on being AGAINST IFQs, pilot or no pilot program, and all that is need to kill it is *35%* to vote AGAINST it. 

These affidavits stated;

Regarding the proposed Pilot IFQ program for federally permitted headboats in the Gulf of Mexico,
I would like to make the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council aware of the fact that no individual or entity has questioned, polled, or surveyed me to find out if I am in support of this proposed Pilot program.

Not only do I oppose the formation of an IFQ Pilot program for Headboats, I am opposed to any IFQ program for the Gulf of Mexico Headboat industry .

Name of responsible party (owner or representative)

printed name : _______________________________________________

signature : _________________________________________________

name of headboat : _____________________________________________

USCG Documentation number : ____________________________________

Reef Fish Permit number : __________________________

Date : __________________________

Name of Notary Public

printed name : ________________________________________

signature : ______________________________________________

Expiration Date of Commision : ______________________________

Seal :


*YET, Roy Crabtree and the NMFS is totally ignoring those affidavits and moving forward with promoting this IFQ project despite having full knowledge that the overwhelming majority of headboat operators are against IFQs. *

So much for the requirement to use the best available information.

So much for the rule of law.

Roy Crabtree was even putting words in people's mouths who were doing their public comments by suggesting that the IFQ pilot program was more economically viable when the guy was lamenting that it gave the participants in the EFP an unfair advantage. Disgusting.

I believe it is time for the headboat operators to obtain the public record of the meeting where these affidavits were presented to the agency last year to document the knowing and willing actions by Crabtree and Co. to attempt to circumvent the law, and put it in front of some attorneys. 

That time has apparently come. 

If they were to simply perform the required referendum, which requires a 2/3 majority to pass IFQ implementation, we could cut to the meat of the matter and kill this bad idea. But, that is exactly why they do NOT want to do a referendum as they already have been informed of what the outcome would be....

David Krebs, a Shareholder Alliance officer sneered yesterday that "private recs just don't want to be held accountable", yet when I explained that we have submitted plans for exactly that he exclaimed; "That will never work"! How could he possibly know whether it would work or not? He doesn't - he spouts this propaganda to make himself look good when it is HE doesn't doesn't want the private recs to be accountable.

Hickman stated that the CFH fleet is getting killed and that they need relief NOW and cannot wait for this private rec accountability to work. Yet, it is this same Hickman who claimed that he was "thinking about" purchasing a headboat (in order to qualify to serve on the ad hoc headboat AP). Why would anyone want to make such a large investment in a failing industry that has no time? Perhaps he is saying one thing when convenient, then saying another when that helps his sales pitch.

We don't need (and certainly don't want) sector separation, days at sea, or IFQs in the recreational sector. Compare what we are doing to what the DOI did with duck hunting and the duck stamp. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE HUNTING WITH A GUIDE OF ON A PRIVATE BOAT, IF A GAME WARDEN CHECKS YOU, YOU HAD BETTER HAVE THAT DUCK STAMP!

That duck stamp doesn't require duck hunting guides and outfitters to get a separate sector, it doesn't create a duck hunter's retirement program from the trading, selling, or leasing of those stamps, nor does it EXCLUDE any hunters who wish to access the American duck resource. We can do the same thing here in the Gulf fisheries, especially noting emerging technologies such as the iSnapper Program that can track the number of fishermen fishing out of what ports on what day and catching how many fish.

If there is a will at the Council level, (and there are those who are willing) I have no doubt in my mind that we could accomplish this, but I am afraid that there is no will for the majority to do anything other than what Crabtree and his attorney tells them to do.

The Gulf Governors came together a while back and voiced their opposition to Catch Shares in the Gulf recreational fisheries. It is these same Governors who appoint the Gulf Council Members, and I do not believe it is prudent on their part to ignore the will of those who appointed them in the first place. 
I can assure you that these Governors will be keenly aware of the actions of each and every Gulf Council Member regarding these pro-Catch Share pilot programs.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Captdroot said:


> *Hmm, I see your web page indicates/states that you own THREE charter boats. One 40 Footer and takes up to 22 passengers*, *one 38 Footer that takes up to six, and you also own and operate a bay boat for charter.** Again, what is **so "incorrect" in my comment. You surely don't operate all the three on the same day.
> 
> The above represents a small piece of Roy Crabtree land. This will come down to, "Money talks and bull shit walks". Sadly, it always does.
> 
> ...


Excuse me if I misunderstood you, but you think that there are up to 50 corporate charterboat operations, that dont take tourist fishing, that have $250,000 boats, that have enough money to "greeze" people in the gulf council or who ever? 
Yes I own 3 boats, I sit here tonight hoping the weather is going to be decent this weekend so I can make the house and car note! There are people making livings in this business but there are a bunch losing there ass. My family has charter fished for 31 years and it has taken every bit of luck and hard work to stay afloat in this business.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom Hilton said:


> Some history;
> 
> EDF created the Cape Cod Hook and Line Fishermen's Association (Hookers) in 2003 and got a "pilot" IFQ program approved for them to try out. The Magnuson 2006 hijack stated that any "new" catch share programs were required to have a referendum. NMFS/EDF pointed to this pilot as an "existing" program, thus exempting it from referendum status. They also created multiple sectors - one for the IFQ participants, and another for everyone else called the Common Pool. I believe within 2 years, they slashed the allocation of the common pool to almost nothing, and those fishermen were eliminated from the fishery.
> 
> ...


Thank you for
The complete history. For those of us out here in "tv land" and not at the meeting what is or best hope in turning back this pilot program? Emailing council members by tomorrow morning?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

billin said:


> this is already happening in the south and has been for over 25 years it is very common in the Carolinas and in VA moutains. this is inacted to prevent destruction of the veiws and stop the random trailer parks from poping up all over the place.[/
> What views and what vistas? They may say it is about protecting the views but the city planners in Oregon also say that there is no reason for suburbs to be created as it is a waste of the land and causes the need for infrastructure roads etc to be built to support a suburb. They see nothing wrong with having everyone living on top of each other in a little box in the city and they will justify it by saying it is about the vista view.


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## Bean Counter (Nov 15, 2010)

These allocations are what the NMFS wants. Commercial, head boat, and charter captains seem to have their ducks in a row and are trying to do what they can to lobby for a bigger piece of the pie. If we, the recreational fishermen, don't get some kind of organized group we are going to get less and less each year. Not trying to slam any particular group it just appears that quotas and shares are what the NMFS has wanted for a while. I am just like others that sit here and post comments on this board and it is not my job nor do I have time to go to meetings and lobby for I have to work to support my fishing habit. I would however give money/support to an organization that would promote and protect the recreational side of fishing. If the recreational sector does not do something we are going to be left behind no matter how much bitching we do among ourselves about how bad "they" are. The NMFS makes the rules and each sector has to protect its own interest with the rules they have made. Seems like an organization to protect recreational interests would be in the best interest of the boat manufacturers, tackle/gear manufacturers, repair/parts businesses, as well as the general fishing public. It just takes someone with the ability create it and get the recreational guys behind it, then maybe we can have a voice that matters because it obviously does not make a difference going to their meetings as an individual.


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## k-p (Oct 7, 2009)

There is an organization that promote and protects the recreational sector....it's called CCA-Coastal Conservation Association. They're essentially going to be our DU for the Gulf only if you help support them. I up'd my contribution to them this year and will probably continue to up it as NMFS continues to sell our public resources for to private interest for profit. CCA was instrumental in the net ban and this will be their next big challenge...help them win!


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## gator7_5 (Oct 4, 2007)

k-p said:


> There is an organization that promote and protects the recreational sector....it's called CCA-Coastal Conservation Association. They're essentially going to be our DU for the Gulf only if you help support them. I up'd my contribution to them this year and will probably continue to up it as NMFS continues to sell our public resources for to private interest for profit. CCA was instrumental in the net ban and this will be their next big challenge...help them win!


The CCA couldn't give a rat's fart about the Florida panhandle. Not enough money. They sided with the Feds when the snapper regs came out in return for lighter restrictions for grouper in the southern region where all of their money comes from. Gotta be an organization better than them.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Excuse me if I misunderstood you, but you think that there are up to 50 corporate charterboat operations, that dont take tourist fishing, that have $250,000 boats, that have enough money to "greeze" people in the gulf council or who ever?
> Yes I own 3 boats, I sit here tonight hoping the weather is going to be decent this weekend so I can make the house and car note! There are people making livings in this business but there are a bunch losing there ass. My family has charter fished for 31 years and it has taken every bit of luck and hard work to stay afloat in this business.


*I do understand this fishing for " a living business". Making a living farming or fishing is often a family affair, handed down from generation to generation. I have spent countless hours trying to stay on my feet, trying to stay in a cot/bed while most folks stay ashore.

I just have a problem with this type of intervention. Since it's inception, the fisheries regulators have considered recreational fishing as simply recreational fishing: "People spending money on a recreational activity." How is it fair that, once you hire someone to facilitate your recreation, you are allowed to "have fun catching fish" and another guy who spends money owning his own boat is not allowed to have the same opportunity....... to have fun?

I do understand the situation of your check book. I am not trying to be mean spirited, but this fishing business has been headed down hill for quite some time. You yourself, have seen this happen during the past 31 yrs of more and more regulation. Just because you choose to be heavily invested in this endeavor, does not give you and others the right to take away the rights of private boat owners. I suspect private boat owners make up 90% **of the boats involved in sport fishing on the ENTIRE GOM.


 How is it fair that 10% of the participants get what they want? It is not fair, it is about money. This would straighten itself out if capitalism was allowed to work. It is no different than "Tire Stores, Hair Salons, Restaurants, etc." Some people in the business would fail and get out, leaving more customers for the few that stayed.

As for greasing palms, how else it that 10% may have it their way, while 90% are left out in the cold? Some one, some where is benefiting and the money must be coming from ..........?


I got out of the fishing business gradually, due to health reasons. Am I one of the lucky ones? 
 *


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation Capt. Hilton, I can know have a firm understanding of why this would be a terrible thing.


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## 20simmons sea skiff (Aug 20, 2010)

Bull shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. A charter boat friend from orange beach told me yesterday that lousinia said they were going to keep their state waters open and the gulf council said if they did they would shut down whole gulf. time to mount a couple 50,s on bow of each boat. Im working on a drug smuggling/snapper sub as we speak. I might not be on here a while, going to live on a lake with a view for a while(lakeview)the government has drove me bonkers, corrup bunch of hoodlums should be out by time new motor out shop, 3 trips 3 bad motor


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## Chet88 (Feb 20, 2008)

So will the election this fall change who is in charge of the NMFS? Does the President appoint this person? Just wondering because we are getting screwed in so many ways here. I pay out of control property taxes and insurance rates to have a place here to enjoy. Now it appears my boat will be used for cruising instead of fishing. If you objectively stand back and look at all this over the last 4 or 5 years can anyone tell me one rule/law change that benefited the Rec. angler?


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## slabhunter (Jan 21, 2012)

Hmmm....classic case here of Regulation gone exactly where it always does: to those who finance those issuing them!

Pure Politics folks. No Science whatsoever supports it, so by using what passes today as 'facts', which are solely derived arbitrarily by the bureaucrats, who answer to NO BODY, use THEIR EDICTS as such. Quaint, ain't it, just like somebody holding up a piece of Wood and claiming termites will soon devour it.

These headboat clowns are entitled to NOTHING. THEY CHOSE TO FISH and CHOSE UNWISELY, so to undo this they seek BENEFIT from REGULATORS to alter the MARKET TO THEIR PROFIT.

Any other thought process is bankrupt and the poster should be forever tagged as a shill for the Political Elites.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Capt Hilton, I don't see so well, so it has taken me a couple of times to read* *all of your post. Thanks for your post. You have named a few of the crooks. There are obviously many others. Some in the NOAA group and some in private sector. I am also aware that for the past 15yrs, much of our fishing rules/regulations have been following New England*. *There are just so many dishonest people in this system, along with many* *misguided bureaucrats.

I'll never forget when a NOAA scientist announced at public meeting, "There are no more red snapper in the South Eastern fishery that are over 20lbs. They are extinct." Shit did hit the fan. That area covers over 12,500 sqmi. I had caught four in the previous week!
*


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

The last meeting I attended in New Orleans, there were almost no guys (or ladies) there who fish from privately owned boats. Where were you? As Tbandit said, "divide and conquor." I did notice that there were many commercial folks there, and I noticed how "thankful" they were to the council for preserving the "Goose that laid the golden egg" for them in the form of the "Catch Shares" that they fish, and lease out for enough money to keep them in brand new trucks and trips to Ruth's Chris. I also remember distinctly how many of us stood up against "Sector Seperation". Before the council adjouned, they took a vote to prepare the scoping document for beginning this process, even with all of the opposition. This council is not representing us, they are representing the Pew Charitabla Trust, and the EDF. SCREW THE FISHERMEN! This "Sector Seperation" will require that us charter operators with federal permits put the same VMS monitoring devices that the commercial people bowed to. I'll put one on my boat when kayaks are also required to have them. As it stands, the Feds mandate my every move I make. I pay $800 a year to the State of Florida for a fishing license that's not worth the paper it's printed upon. Florida is OWNED by the Feds. 
As Fairwater said, "we're all just bus drivers for the people that choose not to buy a boat" Not his exact words, but you get the point. I used to respect Gary Jarvis and some of the SOS people, but no more. And... How dare some of you say that any of us Charter people bribed anyone. That's really "out there."


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## Crab Man (Oct 21, 2011)

Burnt Drag said:


> The last meeting I attended in New Orleans, there were almost no guys (or ladies) there who fish from privately owned boats. Where were you? ."


Working for a living.


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## lbhuntley (Oct 6, 2007)

Seems to me if private recrerational and charter don't do something different, both are going to continue to have 40 day seasons.

Before Florida required everyone to have a fishing license, I did a little research and found that approx 17% of Floridians had a permit. Most were boaters, those able to catch red snapper. Eighty-three percent depended on the commercial fishery for their fair share of the sustainable natural resource.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

lbhuntley said:


> Seems to me if private recrerational and charter don't do something different, both are going to continue to have 40 day seasons.
> 
> Before Florida required everyone to have a fishing license, I did a little research and found that approx 17% of Floridians had a permit. Most were boaters, those able to catch red snapper. Eighty-three percent depended on the commercial fishery for their fair share of the sustainable natural resource.


Gulf Recreational Fishermen support many people working in businesses in Florida that depend upon the recreational fishery for their livlihoods. 
These men and women are seeing their livlihoods tampered with by the NMFS. Many options have been put on the table for recreational data collection, yet NMFS runs its own course. 

The only thing NMFS has seemingly given attention to is what the smallest group is pushing, Catch Shares. This certainly highlights the lack of trust most fishermen have rightfully gained with the NMFS. What we see and are fighting for is for federal regulators to stop making policy without the science to support it. Basic fishery data is missing in nearly 75% of NMFS managed fisheries.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

It's incredible that so many are ready to take what crumbs fall from NMFS's table. We should be ashamed of ourselves.


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## Ozeanjager (Feb 2, 2008)

*this is a load*

This is a load. I do not share the philosophy that one mans investment is more important than mine.If the powers to be are to offer this type of " special " licsence and it is taking from the genreal allotment of grouper and snapper-IT SHOULD BE OFFERED TO ALL FISHERMEN THAT IT EFFECTS.What i read into this is that the amendment is a loop hole in the making for circumventing a flawed fishing regulation.I am as i have said before sick of people treating the "private /indavidual angler like some group of lowly no impact bunch of misfits.How many boat sales are there in our state for commercial /charter fishing compared to private boat owner? Look at the gross reciets of Bass pro shops - a 6 BILLION dollar a year company- and see how many sales they have tax exempt( for resale/charters commercial) compared to the rest of sales to walk in fishermen.Private fishing lic alone -there are 8 million in florida comapred to 2500 comercial lic . The commercial guys would have to pay $48,000 a year each to equal our contribution just for a comercial lic.I know thats not what they pay.We , the private anglers who take our friends and family fishing contribute so much more to the economic field on every level from fuel comsumption to bait and tackle to even ice purchases than commercial and charter industry that its absurd to even compare the two.Yet five commercial boats in pensacola will harvest more than 500 private non commercial boats this year.And every time a regulation is drawn up the family angler gets the short end of the stick. I am pleased with the results of the snapper and red fish regulations. I think ALL data should come from the fishing fleet -comercial and non commercial.But i also think the regulations are only bringing us to the alter and we are not talkin to jesus. We have achieved over abundant levels of snapper in our area.To the point that we have run out other species of reef fish that used to be abundant here. We no longer have strong populations of Vermillion snapper ,trigger or anything else smaller than the red snapper on near shore wrecks.To me once the stock levels have reached this amount for a zone the State and Fed should increase the limit or season or both- provided a hatchery release an equal number to the harvest of smaller fish to replenish and restock the fishery. I mean , when you harvest corn you dont just til the ground and hope it all grows back next year... you plant seeds. We are harvesting snapper-why is it so hard to understand you must seed the crop?Fish farming to a small fry size is CHEAP . Releaseing 4 to 6 inch snapper represents millions of of hatchlings in the wild that wont be eatin .This should be the proactive method on ALL species . Even before they get to this level.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Word is that the gulf council approved the program discussed in this thread.

Looks like we are truly truly done...


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

markw4321 said:


> Word is that the gulf council approved the program discussed in this thread.
> 
> Looks like we are truly truly done...


Mark, I got a call from Captain Randy Boggs this afternoon. He explained alot about this program and dispelled some myths. He promised to start a thread to tell you what he told me. I'll not disclose what he told me, because I did'nt record the conversation and I don't think I can accurately
relate (exactly) what Randy told me. Let's hear him out, because from what I recall of the conversation, there was more myth than fact. I still dis-agree fundamentally with the whole thing. But, if you grasp how elated the commercial side is with their "deal" you'd know why recreational's would like to get that same fuzzy feeling.


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## tbandit (Oct 4, 2010)

I got the same call jim the long and the short is,we would get the same amount of day's on snapper as anyone else, at abount 70 to 60 % of our passenger capacity on the day we caught snapper, but we could get them when we wanted, if we chose to participate in the program. Then we would have to get VMS on our boats to file fishing reports daily trip logs.For those of you who don't know what VMS is, it's a tracking device that cost in excess of $5000.00 to install,with a monthly monitoring Of about $45.00, just that they can track our boat's 24/7. Just another expense which most of us can't afford to pay for. For the people out that think we get rich doing this,that is a far cry from the truth. I have more paper on one boat, than a person that owns 5 houses,Normally each paper come with a fee. Back to my earlier post,we are were we are in this rec fishery because of the lack of people standing up for there right's to fish. Ive heard so many excuses why people can do there part,(it just comes down to what's important.) These meeting's are scheduled month's in advanced,plenty of time too plan or put in for a day off.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

The problem with all of this is that "someone" will be responsible for determining who is eligible to paticipate and who is not - this is a system of "haves" and "have nots".

Take the commercial IFQ program for example, and which the Sector Separation is patterned after; a large percentage of commercial permit holders got eliminated prior to the required referendum so they could not vote. "Somebody" made the determination that the smaller, part-time operators shouldn't have a say whether or not IFQs were implemented in the commercial sector, so they didn't.

Now, we have a group of CFH/headboat captains pushing for these CFH/headboat pilot programs that will require Sector Separation, which is the foot in the door for Catch Shares in the recreational sector. 

Guys like the Charter Fisherman's Association's Scott Hickman are claiming that the Mississippi headboats listed on the Beaufort Headboat Survey are not actually headboats for example;

Miss Hospitality - 51' COI vessel that takes up to 30 passengers
http://misshospitalityfishing.com/ 

Keesler Dolphin II - 50' COI vessel that takes up to 22 passengers $100 each
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3582582&type=1 

Silver Dollar III - 52' x 20' COI vessel that takes up to 44 passengers
http://www.biloxicharterfishing.com/

Skipper - 40' COI vessel that takes up to 22 passengers
http://www.skipper4fish.com/ 

They LOOK like headboats, charge people by the "head", have the necessary USCG C.O.I. documentation, yet Hickman claims they are NOT headboats. I'm sure the owners of these operations will be interested to know that their headboat operations that they advertise and operate as such are indeed NOT headboats, according to some EDF operatives. *It is EXACTLY this type of parsing of what "is" is, that will be the death knell for many of our current Gulf headboat and CFH captains, and will be the tool to eliminate them from the fishery.*

This is the same Hickman who stood up at the LAPP AP and pushed for this headboat pilot program (he is CFH) - when it was pointed out to him that this LAPP AP had no headboat representatives, the move was made to create an Ad Hoc Headboat AP.

Hickman then later claimed that he was "thinking about buying a headboat" and got his EDF cronies on the Council to get him placed on this Headboat AP. BTW, supposedly "thinking about buying a headboat" in no way qualified Hickman for placement on this AP, but there he was. The ONLY reason he wanted on that AP was to use his loud obnoxious mouth to stack the vote and to push the headboat pilot forward, yet he continues to deny that very clear fact to this day.

If IFQs/Catch Shares are implemented as a result of Randy Boggs/Scot Hickman's/EDF's pilot programs, there will be a sizable number of headboats/charterboats excluded from the fishery as has been the case in other fisheries where IFQs/Catch Shares have been implemented. 

What they are not telling you is that there will not be "3" sectors created, but more likely "6" or more, as was the case up in the NE when they instituted cooperatives, sectors, and the like. The different sectors will each have its own allocation and rules of fishing with great advantages given to certain sectors over others. A year or two after creation, NOAA Fisheries will slash the allocation to certain sectors, basically forcing these captains out of the fishery, and their quota absorbed by the EDF-funded guys.

Conspiracy theory? Science fiction? Or, as Boggs refers to it - Myth?

Nope. It has already happened up in the NE and they are trying to repeat it down here in the Gulf. Google is your friend - check it out for yourself.

Bottom line - we are in the information age. We don't need to be corraled and separated in order to manage our fisheries - the need for us to be corraled and separated is simply to privatize our fisheries for the personal profit of select individuals and corporations. *The need to corral and separate us instead of allowing us to roam on the open range is to send some of us to the slaughterhouse.* 

It is not mandated by the law for us to use Catch Shares or IFQs, but it *IS* mandated by law to improve the data pertaining to our fisheries. Strangely, our EDF-led fisheries managers have that backwards, as they are pushing Catch Shares at all costs, including taking monies away from cooperative research to do so.

The time is coming soon for the American fisherman to stand up and simply put these corrupt bureaucrats out on the street where they belong and put fisheries management back on track for the benefit of the American fisheries, the American fishermen, and American coastal communities - NOT for the benefit of the extreme anti-fishing environmental corporations and their minions.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Burnt Drag said:


> Mark, I got a call from Captain Randy Boggs this afternoon. He explained alot about this program and dispelled some myths. He promised to start a thread to tell you what he told me. I'll not disclose what he told me, because I did'nt record the conversation and I don't think I can accurately
> relate (exactly) what Randy told me. Let's hear him out, because from what I recall of the conversation, there was more myth than fact. I still dis-agree fundamentally with the whole thing. But, if you grasp how elated the commercial side is with their "deal" you'd know why recreational's would like to get that same fuzzy feeling.


ThankS.

I am ready to learn the true details.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*After reading ALL these past three days of posts, it still appears to me, that the folks with the most money tied up in their "recreational fishing businesses" are the ones steering and yes, greasing this new regulation. If this goes through, it will be just another example of how government listens to cooperate America.*

*Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any vessel that takes more than six fare paying passengers, called an inspected vessel? Aren't all fishing head boats called inspected vessels? Doesn't this mean that head boats are fishing vessels that carry 7-100 passengers?* *

I'm just trying learn who's who*.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1392257.html

Interesting read, reconize a name?


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/archive/index.php/t-325348.html

I think it is part of the charter/headboat IFQ program.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I am surprised that someone with a conviction of this type would be allowed on the ground floor of such a pilot program.

Just a bunch of "professionals" seeking "accountability" for "their sector".


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Outside9 said:


> http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1392257.html
> 
> Interesting read, reconize a name?


 
I am surprised that someone with such a conviction would be allowed on the ground floor of such an important pilot program. Just a bunch of "professionals" seeking "accountability" for "their sector".


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Captdroot said:


> *After reading ALL these past three days of posts, it still appears to me, that the folks with the most money tied up in their "recreational fishing businesses" are the ones steering and yes, greasing this new regulation. If this goes through, it will be just another example of how government listens to cooperate America.*
> 
> *Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any vessel that takes more than six fare paying passengers, called an inspected vessel? Aren't all fishing head boats called inspected vessels? Doesn't this mean that head boats are fishing vessels that carry 7-100 passengers?* *
> 
> I'm just trying learn who's who*.


On a Federal fisheries permit application you are asked what kind of business best describes you, which do you do he most of. Charter or Head boat, I check charter because I mostly do private charters with families, for example it cost $1400 for a 6 hour trip and you can have 10 people for that price. Capt Boggs boats do mainly per person or head boat trips, for an example $65 to $85 per person. He is required to fill out a daily catch survey, which I am not required to do. This daily catch survey data for the year of 2011 will give them the information on how many American Red Snapper he catches on a given year and will be the basis of how many Snapper his boats will be able to catch in this program. Not saying that they will give him all of the fish, they may not give him %60 of the fish but he will be able to use them anyway he wishes thats best for his business. For an example you and I will still be in a derby and will have 40 days make or break to catch all the snapper at 2 per person we can. Randy can run a few trips in the spring/Fall and be able to keep a few nice snapper that will surly die if released while Jack or grouper fishing in deep water. Randy will also be able to make his own catch limits on his boats like 1 snapper per person instead of 2 and be able to stretch his summer business out to maybe 60 days of snapper fishing instead of 40. Also if there are back to back tropical weather in June and we can't fish due to weather he will be able to catch snapper in July and August and still make a great season out of a bad weather first half. He will have total control of his business.

If the charter for-hire got to use there fish any time or way they wanted and the recreational guys didn't lose any days fishing, how would that effect anything that you do? As of right now were all done in 40 days. If all the charter for hire boats could use theres when they wanted then you still could go catch a few snapper on a charter boat when the recreational season is over. Really whats the difference in your daily expenses and wear and tear on your own boat and paying me to take you on mine?

If I had an allotment of Red snapper I would use/catch them as by-catch only while I was fishing for other fish, you know there are other fish in the gulf, kind of like the commercial guys do. This is way more efficient and I will waste way less of this resource. I really can't stand killing an animal that somebody isn't going to eat or use. Its against everything I believe in.


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## Bean Counter (Nov 15, 2010)

It's not my daily expenses. It is my daily *experiences* with my friends and family, on my boat, with my ability, and my rules. How many days would we, the recreational fishermen, have had to fish in the past 40 days? Yet other, smaller, groups get more days fishing, since they can choose their days, due to the fact they call it a business.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Yes, beancounter, that is what it appears. Lets see if, you get down in your back, blow out a knee, have a bout with pneumonia, or perhaps have a kidney stone in June of July, I guess you are totally screwed..... unless you are in the recreational fishing business. Better tell your dad, "Tough it out, don't have that surgery until after "SNAPPER SEASON". Oh that's right, we can go do that anytime.......... just as long as we leave our perfectly good boat, with a perfectly good registration, and then pay some other fella to use his boat and his registration.


Fellas, none of this is fair. Of course, it is not designed to be. 

The folks that are going to get special treatment make up less than 5% of the boats that are recreation-ally fishing and they account for less than 50% of the recreational fish caught in the entire GOM. 

Anyone want to argue those numbers?

All of you fellas know where and who the crooks are. I hope the check book can over come the rising fuel. That problem will be harder to infiltrate........ or grease.

*


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Bean Counter said:


> It's not my daily expenses. It is my daily *experiences* with my friends and family, on my boat, with my ability, and my rules. How many days would we, the recreational fishermen, have had to fish in the past 40 days? Yet other, smaller, groups get more days fishing, since they can choose their days, due to the fact they call it a business.


Yep I "call" it a business. Last year just my two offshore boats fished over 200 trips and took about 1500 true recreational fishermen fishing. 

Sounds like most your commits are more about being pissed about the 40 day derby fishery. Why be pissed at charter boats for trying to better our business. You should be lobbing a better management plan for yourselves, statics quo will have us at under 35 days next year.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*You have made a gross*

*You have made a gross misjudgment. I could give a fu%$ about what I catch. I just hate to see that self centered as$%les like you get bailed out..... at the expense of the majority of others.

Do some real research and learn just how many boats are fishing recreationally in the ENTIRE GOM. There are tens of thousands from from Key West to Brownsville. Damn few of them are charter or headboats. 

Yes, there are no crooks...... but you like to reference the "term lobbyists". 

If things were so bad (as you state) in your check book, why didn't you scale back, sell out, and find another way to pay your bills. That is what 50 million other Americans are doing! Just screw someone else, that is how you fix YOUR PROBLEM.
*


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Why be pissed at charter boats for trying to better our business.


Because you are trying to better your business at the expense of the majority of the recreational fisherman to put a dollar in your own pocket. Seems a little selffish to me. Why not unite and fight the fight together with everyone instead of just looking out for yourself? Some of the last couple of comments on this thread are pretty harsh, but I have to admit that I agree 100% with them.... When you asked what the difference is in fishing on our own boats or paying you to take us, that tells me right there you have lost touch with the reality of being a recreational fisherman.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Like I said before, if it doesn't change your season then what would it matter? I guess you would be jealous that a group come up with a plan and was able to catch a smaller amount of snapper but anytime of the year they wanted. There would be way less waste, no derby fishery, way better accountability. Why not unite and keep with the statics quo? Dude I was united and fighting the good fight when you were in diapers, I can see where this is all going, straight down hill fast. Snapper season 6 months then 4 then 2 then 48 days then 40 days next year probably 35. States threating to go non- complaint which will shorten federal days or even shut off snapper season all together , and could even shut down all bottom fishing in the gulf, when red snapper catches in state waters start going over the tac. Statics quo is not working, been time for a while to try something else. Is that how you want me to unite? Like most on here wanting florida to go non-complaint because they have there own boats and can fish in state waters? What about the thousands and thousands of people that come here to fish and keep our economy alive? Who's going to take all of them fishing if there is no federal fishery? All of this is closer to happening right now than ever before.


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## Starlifter (Feb 24, 2011)

*CFR Title 50 Part 622.38 Landing Fish Intact*

:thumbsup:I don't know about anybody else....??? I'm just going to buy a grill, and *grill and comply* while out at sea.

Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries
PART 622—FISHERIES OF THE CARIBBEAN, GULF, AND SOUTH ATLANTIC 
Subpart C—Management Measures 

§ 622.38 Landing fish intact...

(2) Legal-sized finfish possessed for consumption at sea on the harvesting vessel are exempt from the requirement to have head and fins intact, provided—

(i) Such finfish do not exceed any applicable bag limit;

(ii) Such finfish do not exceed 1.5 lb (680 g) of finfish parts per person aboard; and

(iii) The vessel is equipped to cook such finfish on board.

e-CFR Data is current as of April 19, 2012
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=50:10.0.1.1.2.3.1.9&idno=50


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## Starlifter (Feb 24, 2011)

*CFR Title 50 Part 622.38 Landing fish intact*

By the wording of consumption at sea; it states that as long as the fish to be consumed does not exceed any applicable bag limit then it is allowed to be consumed.

In legal terms, one way this can be construed is even if said species season is currently closed you would still not exceed the bag limit; because the bag limit in question would not be "applicable." :whistling:

Lawyers do this mumble jumbo, twisting and turning, of our federal regulations all the time, so it's looking like it's about time I start it as well. My family said when I was a little child, I should become a lawyer due to wanting to state my point and stand firm in my view.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Like I said before, if it doesn't change your season then what would it matter? I guess you would be jealous that a group come up with a plan and was able to catch a smaller amount of snapper but anytime of the year they wanted. There would be way less waste, no derby fishery, way better accountability.
> --------------------
> Tom
> 
> ...


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Fairwaterfishing said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said before, if it doesn't change your season then what would it matter? I guess you would be jealous that a group come up with a plan and was able to catch a smaller amount of snapper but anytime of the year they wanted. There would be way less waste, no derby fishery, way better accountability.
> ...


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

One thing the NMFS _has _seemingly achieved is that they now have recreational fishermen and the people who take people fishing recreationally at each others throats. Nice.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Like I said before, if it doesn't change your season then what would it matter? I guess you would be jealous that a group come up with a plan and was able to catch a smaller amount of snapper but anytime of the year they wanted. There would be way less waste, no derby fishery, way better accountability. Why not unite and keep with the statics quo? Dude I was united and fighting the good fight when you were in diapers, I can see where this is all going, straight down hill fast. Snapper season 6 months then 4 then 2 then 48 days then 40 days next year probably 35. States threating to go non- complaint which will shorten federal days or even shut off snapper season all together , and could even shut down all bottom fishing in the gulf, when red snapper catches in state waters start going over the tac. Statics quo is not working, been time for a while to try something else. Is that how you want me to unite? Like most on here wanting florida to go non-complaint because they have there own boats and can fish in state waters? What about the thousands and thousands of people that come here to fish and keep our economy alive? Who's going to take all of them fishing if there is no federal fishery? All of this is closer to happening right now than ever before.


*Dude??? 

Junior, fellas from my generation* *don't use the word, "dude" ........... and by the way, fellas from my generation have all the grand kids that will never, ever go fishing on any of your boats. 

This advice is free, take it or leave it. You are in a people oriented business. More so each year, because it is harder and harder to catch a boat load of fish. When you can't help from being an asshole, you might not want to advertise that fact to so many people. This thing called the internet has a way of coming back and biting people in the ass. 

My days and hours on the ocean are almost over, I'm afraid I'll snicker if I hear you on the radio calling for assistance. Perhaps I'll turn the volume down. Wonder how many other folks will feel the same way........ after this email is forwarded?
*


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Dude, you have some major anger issues you may want to look into.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> What about the thousands and thousands of people that come here to fish and keep our economy alive? Who's going to take all of them fishing if there is no federal fishery?


Guys who don't hold federal permits will take them fishing. Probably catch more fish and do it cheaper too. If the tourist dont want to do that then they can buy their own boat and store it here and fish when they want to. You not being able to fish will not affect the tourist fishing. I know you know this. There are plenty of captains who don't hold federal permits who will take them fishing. Business close every day. I am sorry that yours may be next. No matter how hard you try to hang on. The writing has been on the wall for over 10 years. Karma is a bitch and it will come back to haunt all of you guys. I will sit back and watch. May be 2 years, may be 10, but the guys who are being selffish will get theirs in due time...:thumbsup:


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

And you wonder why were not united? Very smart boy you are.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> And you wonder why were not united? Very smart boy you are.


Did I say something that wasn't true?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

About me going out of business yes. About any state water able to sustain a fishery with as many tourist we have, see i'm thinking about La, Miss and Al also with the 3 miles that will not work, all the business there would suffer without a federal season, and Florida's would too, and Im not talking about the fishing businesses im talking about the total local economy, you know tackle shops. That Federal permit is not tattooed to my arm, I can do with it as I please but it would just be way stupid to jeopardize a Federal fishery.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Are you thinking about MS, AL, and LA recreational anglers, or just your buddies who have jumped on this bandwagon? Florida can absolutely sustain a state season with the tourist. You are the one using the excuse that you can't fish in state waters because you hold a federal permit. So which is it, you are screwed cause you hold a federal permit or you can live without it?? I am well aware what you can and can't do with that permit.


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

at this point only one solution.

i figure recs will get 10 days of actual fishing during this snapper season. they will have an average of 4 anglers. their total harvest of snapper will be 80 fish.

so the owner of the boat takes his/her boat registration to the tag office. they get 80 red snapper tags assigned to their boat registration. each red snapper they keep will require a tag attached to fish. once the tag is used it is designed so it cannot be used again. if checked by FWC or USCG their tag must match to their boat registration and must be attached to red snapper. penalty for breaking law...$5000.00 and no more red snapper fishing for that year.

You the rec angler can go anytime during the year to harvest your snappers. Also all tags used and unused to be returned the next year to get your new tags plus a survey to be done on time of year...size and weight of each fish. this will now show how many rec anglers are fishing and how many snapper are being caught.

charter boat industry will work with state and federal governments to determine how many anglers they take on average during the snapper season for years 2011 2009 and 2008. this will determine how many snapper tags they get. they can fish when ever they want as well.

the charter boats turn in their used and unused tags each year to receive their new tags. surveys are done as well. break the law $10,000 fine and no more snapper fishing that season.

what say ya'll?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Are you thinking about MS, AL, and LA recreational anglers, or just your buddies who have jumped on this bandwagon? Florida can absolutely sustain a state season with the tourist. You are the one using the excuse that you can't fish in state waters because you hold a federal permit. So which is it, you are screwed cause you hold a federal permit or you can live without it?? I am well aware what you can and can't do with that permit.[/QUOTE
> 
> I am talking about total local economies hurt from La to Fl that if the states go non complaint. When the feds consider the snapper way overfished and shut down ALL bottom fishing in the federal waters you will then see the uproar. The damage would be huge. I have a feeling that you believe that it will never happen. As far as my permits go I can make a living either way. My point is that it would be stupid to do so. The 9 miles of Florida will not and can not withstand that kind of pressure and every one will go to not catching crap again, it would not take long.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

captwesrozier said:


> at this point only one solution.
> 
> i figure recs will get 10 days of actual fishing during this snapper season. they will have an average of 4 anglers. their total harvest of snapper will be 80 fish.
> 
> ...


 I would be all in for a Tag system if that was on the agenda. You know why? I have a for real business, and will fish many days with many people, and get many tags. The part time charter for hire would get very little if any.
If I had tags to use when ever that would be great! There are a lot of people against tags, I would love for them to chime in and tell me why that would not work.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I would be all in for a Tag system if that was on the agenda. You know why? I have a for real business, and will fish many days with many people, and get many tags. The part time charter for hire would get very little if any.
> If I had tags to use when ever that would be great! There are a lot of people against tags, I would love for them to chime in and tell me why that would not work.


I am all for a tag system, as long as it is fair. I am talking about fair for recreational anglers. As for your "for real" business...that is the 2nd time I have heard you refer to part time guys as if you are better than them. Just FYI I no longer run my part time charter business. There are some full time guys on here who are truly looking out for the recreational anglers though and not trying to commercialize a public resource to pad their pockets. I am smart enough to know that the charter business is not stable enough to support my family as a full time job. I hope you can see that before its too late for you.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks for worrying about my family and my business Jon, but I have been lucky enough to take enough recreational fishermen fishing for the last 30 years to be "ok". Pad my pocket is what you try to do when you have a business Jon, maybe thats why you didn't make it. Its a business yes nothing new been going on around here for what about 50 or 60 years. It takes in money, gives a service, everyone happy. What are you now mad that I am successful? Is that somehow not fair that some are and others are not?


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Pad my pocket is what you try to do when you have a business Jon, maybe thats why you didn't make it. What are you now mad that I am successful? Is that somehow not fair that some are and others are not?


 Not that I did not make it Tom, the reason I don't run my charter business anymore is because I took a job on a Private boat making more money and less wear and tear on my boat...Some consider that a "promotion"...I consider it fortunate for me... BTW, I was giving away more trips than I was running when I was "part time"....3-4 a week is all I could handle then... I wouldn't blame you for being sucessful, I don't want to see anyone fail. However when you decide to take away from my son's ability to fish so you can make money off the same fish is something I don't like... One day your grandkids won't be able to fish for snapper because you will have retired and they will be recreational anglers...but thats your decision.


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## Seminole1 (Dec 22, 2007)

I find it very hard to support anything that Roy Crabtree is behind. He's done nothing to help our fisheries. Quite honestly it makes me sick. The best thing that has happened to our fisheries in the last 20 years was the net ban and that had to be voted on by the people or it never would have happened. It's bad when you have to go over their head (our appointed fisheries managers head) to get something positive for our resources.Marine scientists like Dr. Bob Shipp seem to be ignored when they give undeniable scientific evidence of snapper abundance...sickening.It's like they have absolutely no common sense. To the OP , I've sent my letter against this proposed "pilot program" and thanks for the heads up. To Capt Pinney , you are right, karma will get the selfish and kudos for speaking your mind.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Nope the Bollweevil will always be in my family, will be my sons boat and then he can decide what he wants to do with it. Thats a promise I made to my dad before he passed. Your not the first Captain that chose to go private, this business is not for everybody, and I don't blame that decision at all. I have been there and done that, it did not work out for me, I like to work for myself. About tired of beating this dead horse.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

captwesrozier said:


> at this point only one solution.
> 
> i figure recs will get 10 days of actual fishing during this snapper season. they will have an average of 4 anglers. their total harvest of snapper will be 80 fish.
> 
> ...


Capt,

The government fishery lawyers are fond of stating that the fishery belongs to all US citizens not just gulf state private boat owning recreational fisherman. That is the same quote that the charter captains that seek to have their own allocation like to throw around to ensure no one forgets that the family from Kansas has just as much right ,or in this case depending on how you look at it more rights,to access and catch gulf red snapper as a private saltwater boat owner living in a gulf state.

Given the above federal legal position I don't believe that federal regulators wold allow tags to be provided just to boat owners along the gulf, in other words the ability to obtain a snapper tag would have to be less restrictive and tags would have to be available to more citizens than those who are boat owners.

But just to explore that option, using state data it would appear that there are 1 million registered boats in the state of Florida alone. The entire snapper recreational allowable catch in pounds is somewhere around 4.5 million ponds total for the entire gulf. and the charter captains are going to want at least 50 percent of that 4.5 million pounds leaving private citizen 2.25 million. Given that the average snapper weighs minimum of 5 pounds doing the math that is 450,000 snapper to be allocated to boat owners all across the gulf states. 

Using only the Florida (not considering TX, LA,MS,AL) estimate of 1 million registered boat owners and using a conservative estimate that only 10 percent or 100,000 of those boat owners access the gulf fishery that means 
450,000 snapper/100,000 boat owners = 4.5 snapper TOTAL allocated per boat owner per year not 80 snapper per year.


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## Bean Counter (Nov 15, 2010)

Only it probably won't be allocated per boat. Would probably end up being like other game seasons with at best a call on X date and get your per person tag before they are all gone or a lottery. Either way we get screwed. I like the tag idea I just think the government will find a way to screw that up worse than what we have now. Did not mean to start this sh*t storm a couple of pages ago and run. It just pissed me off when I read don't worry about your short season, you can leave your boat at the dock and pay me to take you fishing. Why are charter fishermen part of the recreational sector? It seems to me when you get paid to do something it is no longer recreational. And no I am not trying to spread hate. As I said earlier I wish there was someone up there at the NMFS who had the true recreational sector's best interests at heart or an organized group that would support us at that level. As with others I get to go fishing when the weather is good and I am not at my chosen profession trying to pay bills and earn a little extra so I can go fishing. I just hope there is a season to fish for something when I can.


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## Starlifter (Feb 24, 2011)

Fairwaterfishing,

Your the opitomy of an ignorant self-centered vain corruptable sell-out; for one your forum handle has fair, though you obviously got confused in grade school what fair means.

fair
- adjective

1.*free from bias or injustice. 2.*proper under the rules. 3.*moderately good or large. 4.*(of the weather) fine 5.*having light-colored skin and hair 6.*attractive. 7.*likely; promising

You sir only categorize groups of people that affects your outcome as to what is fair and unfair; though in actuality....it is not "FAIR" when a small select few are given special treatment to fish under the guise of scientific research.

What is not "FAIR," is when only a very small aggregate of people will be allowed to harvest yearly from the federal list of reef fish that will normally be closed out for the majority of the year for the rest of the "holders" of a recreational saltwater fishing permit.

What is not "FAIR," is when a small group of charter boats are already chosen to do this so-called research study; when there should of been an actual application process open to every registered federal permit holding charter business in the entire Gulf of Mexico EEZ. Instead as.....usual in today's society it is seen as acceptable for a small group of shady, corrupted individuals to always determine the outcomes through backhanded deals; looks like the good-ole boys club continues to prevail once more!

On a side note, one difference from fishing from a person's own boat and having to fish from a/your charter boat is the fact I don't have to shell out around a $1,000 dollars for a 6 hour trip when it only costs me an investment of around $150 for a 12+ hour trip from my own vessel.


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## Har5da43 (Apr 23, 2012)

Regulation has hurt so many small businesses.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Good morning Capt Wer.......*

*Enjoyed your post. 

That "Tag" situation is long over due. It would solve some issues, particularly who is catching what and how many fish are being harvested. I wonder why that was never attempted on the east coast of Florida, in the South East fisheries area? It has been 17 months since anyone (rec, rec charter, or commercial bottom fishermen) has harvested a red snapper on the east coast. An old friend of mine had been catching more red snapper for 12 months before the total ban. He had down sized his commercial bottom fishing to a 28', 18-20 knt boat.** His total annual catch was way up from the previous five years. The charter fleet was also having a good catches, too. 

When the two fish, 20 inch limit went into affect in 1994? it was very unpopular. Fifteen years later, it was producing very positive results. Sadly, the regulators did not seem to recognize this.

I'm not against any one group. I want everyone to have a fair opportunity to enjoy the resource. At the age of 62yrs, sometime or another, I have participated in every ocean fishing endeavor, except shrimping. I hate regulators, but I understand the fisheries have been near collapse, but over regulating without accurate data seems "anti scientific". "The best available data" should not come from throwing at a dart board or phone surveys. 
*


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

hey mark

can we safely say that most if not all sailboats will be eliminated from the group of boats that will target red snapper?

can we safely say that all the cruisers and jet skies will be eliminated?

can we say that most of the freshwater fishing boats will be eliminated?

i thought you were looking for solutions but maybe you just want to take as much of the snappers as you can haul out of the water when you want.

your last post to me and only me shows why the federal government is winning the war against all fisherman whether they are rec or commercial.

the fact here is that the red snapper do not belong to you or I. there is nothing in the constitution that says you have a right to those snapper. because the snapper fall into U S territory the federal government has the control. you want to change that control elect the men and women who will change the laws.

now your real fight should be with the state of florida. they are keeping you from the red snapper inside 9 miles. you will find it easier to fight for your right to catch red snapper in florida waters than in federal waters.

just my opinion


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Hey Capt. Wes,
Speaking of the US Constitution, I don't believe there is anything in there that gives the right to manage the fish to the feds at all - *"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."* The Magnuson was created to protect US waters from foreign fleets, but the feds have since turned the cannons towards us.

Fish tags or lotteries are bad ideas - you are implementing Catch Shares by putting a price on the fish and auctioning it off to the highest bidder. We ALL already own these fish - NOBODY has the right to these fish over other Americans.

The NMFS has manipulated the numbers (cooked the books) to coerce all of us into accepting Catch Shares. It's inconceivable that they claim that we were somehow able to catch as many red snapper in 2011 as we averaged in the years 1995-2006, despite having 196 LESS days to do so, 50% LESS daily bag limits, and 20% LESS charter boats. It's a physical impossibility, yet this is what they are hanging their hat on to force a 40 day season on us this year.

It won't matter what "Plan" is put into place as long as the current, corrupt federal fisheries management regime is still in place.

All the best,
Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Starlifter said:


> Fairwaterfishing,
> 
> Your the opitomy of an ignorant self-centered vain corruptable sell-out; for one your forum handle has fair, though you obviously got confused in grade school what fair means.
> 
> ...


Sir,
With all due respect, this rhetoric is un-called for. Maybe if you'd planned ahead and attended the public comment sessions @ NMFS meetings with all of us who did, we may have overwhelmed them. As it stood, one man from a small Texas organization showed up and spoke. Other than that, it was the Commercial People, and those of us Charter
people of whom 95% were opposed to this "Catch Share" and Sector Separation. Calling names at people you don't know is non-productive at best. I'll bet if you were broke down with a dead battery 20 miles offshore and saw Tom, you'd be singing a different tune.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*I can't see so well*

*Did some one say what the these tags would cost?

With all the expense's of private recreational fishing in the GOM, $1/fish (RS) seems reasonable: $200 for 200 red snapper, with a 2/person limit. Perhaps have a 200 tag limit/year?? Now, if they are planning on an additional charge for tags on other species........ no thanks.

For example: Four fishermen on board could catch eight fish and could participate at that rate for 25 trips/yr. 

This does sound like an easy/accurate way, each year, to learn how many fish are being caught. This would also be good for a more balanced flow of other fishing related businesses. None of this fishing derby nonsense.

If the they want to really increase the stock, why don't they close the season to everyone (commercial, too) when the fish spawn. When all species spawn, they gather into larger groups. This is very true with red snapper. Fishing during those times is always more productive. Determine when these fish spawn, then close the harvest of all red snapper for 4-8 wks each and every year. If that includes the 4th of July weekend, too bad, Fish for something else.

As for the constitution, states rights have been getting trampled as soon as the ink dried.
*


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Captdroot said:


> *Did some one say what the these tags would cost?*
> 
> *With all the expense's of private recreational fishing in the GOM, $1/fish (RS) seems reasonable: $200 for 200 red snapper, with a 2/person limit. Perhaps have a 200 tag limit/year?? Now, if they are planning on an additional charge for tags on other species........ no thanks.*
> 
> ...


Capt 

respectfully. the *math on the amount of snapper that private recs are allowed to catch and keep *won't work like that, see my next post.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

CAPT Wes,

respectfully. sorry I took what you stated at the end of your post "what say ya'll? literally and I responded to your post.

regarding the numbers in my math please recheck them and tell me where i am wrong. note that i attempted to* not include sail boats and or jet skis* in my caculations.

there are *1 million registered* boats in the state of Florida alone. The entire snapper recreational allowable catch in pounds is somewhere around 4.5 million pounds total for the entire gulf. and the charter captains are going to want at least 50 percent of that 4.5 million pounds leaving private citizen 2.25 million. Given that the average snapper weighs minimum of 5 pounds doing the math that is 450,000 snapper to be allocated to boat owners all across the gulf states. 

*Using only the Florida (not considering TX, LA,MS,AL)* estimate of *1 million registered boat owners* and using a conservative estimate that *only 10 percent or 100,000 of those boat owners access the gulf fisher*y that means 
*450,000 snapper/100,000 boat owners = 4.5 snapper TOTAL* allocated per boat owner per year *not 80 snapper per year.* 

--------------

Cat Wes please tell me where i went wrong on my math. thank you.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> markw4321 said:
> 
> 
> > If you are asking me if I know that all of this is true, then I will have to say that I do not know, maybe yes, but I really don't know all.quote]
> ...


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Ok ???*

*Sounds like many of those "private boat" owners would not be interested in paying .......... lets say $200 for 200 RS tags.*

*I know that the data is there.* *Wonder how many people have salt water fishing licenses**? Also, wonder how many of that group have a title to 19-40' boat?* *That would include some pontoon boats, some large jon boats, and some flats boats.*

*That is getting closer to the number of boaters that might participate in buying $200 worth of tags. My guess is....... and this is just MHO, there would only be 30% of the above mentioned group that would want to buy those tags for GOM red snapper. Damn few folks are going to run over 40 miles out to catch 4-8 red snapper. That takes away the ports from Carrabelle, Fl to Hudson, Fl. ........ and that is about 25-33% of Florida's gulf coast.*


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## Starlifter (Feb 24, 2011)

Burnt Drag,

I'm not calling names at nobody, for I am only stating an observation. I have been following this post since it's inception, and from Fairwaterfishing's "train of thought," my observations seek true. If it rubs you the wrong way, maybe that says something?

The truth hurts, so they say.

If you'd start at Page 1, Post 1; and follow along until you come back to my post; and you still don't understand my response then I don't know what to say? Because my entire response is based off every single response Fairwaterfishing has given. Something tells me that I doubt you will start at Page 1, Post 1 because it would nullify this STRAWMAN Approach.

If I had a dead battery I'd tie into my secondary, and get my Seatow Account rolling; then if I could not get anyone on the horn, I highly doubt "FEW" charter boats would even flinch to helping a recreational boat by towing him in, and wasting "their" fuel that port in the Destin Harbor.

(for I've witnessed the attitude of, "this is my fishery" from more than just one charter boat running out the East Pass. It's easy to see, for it's all in looking a captain in the eyes as they pass and wave, and I have yet to see one take the time to wave back, as if it takes any time at all.)

If this attempt would not work either; I'd radio the USCG; if that still failed I'd activate my distress signal through the use of DSC. If by some mere chance both my batteries, even when they are on separate circuits failed at the same time. I'd wait to see who would respond to my visual distress signal, and if all else failed then I'm switching on my 406Mhz beacon.

Clearly I wouldn't be all giddy as a whore would be on her knees because he'd show up. Because if he says with his boats and the amount of charters he ran; and still barely scraped by why would he tack on an extra expense by giving somebody charity???

Lastly, if I would have known ahead of time what was going on I'd take the time to attend, so if you want to play the blame game; I'll join in and say....clearly you should have let me know that this was taking place.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

There is a move afoot to implement Sector Separation by the Gulf Council.

If the recreational sector is divided, it will be divided into multiple cooperatives and sectors. One suggestion is to create a recreational catch share pool, where tags would be required to fish this pool. The idea would be to limit the number of tags in order to EXCLUDE recreational anglers without tags. 

There will parsing about who is eligible to participate in the various cooperatives and/or sectors - if you are not in the cooperative, you will be forced into the "open" sector which will be managed under different management seasons, rules, and limits.

This is a system of "haves" and "have-nots". If you are a "have", you will love it - if you are a "have-not", as most of us will be, you will not love it.

Sector Separation / Catch Shares are not mandated by law to be implemented, nor are they wanted by the majority of stakeholders in the recreational fishery.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

hello capt tom

we will have to agree to disagree on the tag plan...also i said nothing on paying for the tags.

as for who owns the fish looks like it is the feds outside 9 miles. may be you can put a law suit in and it will go the supreme court and the supreme court can tell us who owns the red snapper.


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

mark we both know there is a small population of boats that actually fish the red snapper. those are the same boats that are fishing them now. how many of the 1 million boats went snapper fishing last year?


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

I don’t think I want to “pay” for a friggin fish or a friggin tag…………


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Realtor said:


> I don’t think I want to “pay” for a friggin fish or a friggin tag…………


I would not mind paying $5 for a "stamp" sort of like some of the hunting stamps, but im against paying for tags for a certain amount of fish. This way they could better keep up with how many people are actually snapper fishing. Nothing is going to be perfect, but its a start.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

[
Capt wes.

respectfully I did not state 1 million boats went snapper fishing in the gulf.

The math I used was 100,000 private boat owners could seek tags to snapper fishing in the gulf. 

I do not think that it is to far fetched to believe that there are 100,000 boat owners with a boat that is Gulf fishing capable from brownsville TX to FL who would want to have tags.

using 100,000 boats (not 1 million) each boat would get 4.5 snapper a year.


In any case BEFORE WE DIVIDE ANY MORE SNAPPER CATCH UP. Think that regulators Must do below plan in order to identify the effort and harvest of red snapper in the gulf by private boat owners. 
create a data base for survey uses that will be limited to the actual people who intend to harvest
reef fish. 


*ORANGE BEACH, AL 36561*
*850-814-8001*
*FAX: 850-763-3558*
*EMAIL:[email protected]*
Florida saltwater recreational anglers are faced with continued fishing restrictions and shorter fishing seasons for several key reef fish species. These restrictions and shorter seasons are being
forced on the State by the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) due to requirements of the Magnuson Stevens Fishery and Conservation Management Act (MSA) as reauthorized in 2006.A critical reason for the increased restrictions and shorter seasons is the lack of accurate and
dependable saltwater recreational, including for-hire, fishing effort and harvest data. This data is collected through the NMFS Marine Recreational Fishing Statistical Survey (MRFSS) whichincludes the For-Hire Survey (FHS).

While there is an ongoing effort to improve the MRFSS and FHS by the federal government called the Marine Recreational Information Program (MRIP), this process is slow and will require years of study and comparison with the current data system before any change is affected. As a result, many saltwater recreational anglers and for-hire vessel owners are looking for new ways to improve the data and improve the accountability of saltwater recreational angling. This proposed *reef fish stamp* is one effort to do this. The Florida Reef Fish Endorsement (FRFE) would be required as an addition to the Florida saltwater recreational fishing license and saltwater for hire license and could be purchased at all locations and by all methods that the current licenses are purchased. The FRFE would be required if a saltwater recreational angler and/or for-hire vessel intended to harvest reef fish off
Florida. Since Florida’s federal fisheries are managed by two different councils with two
different sets of federal requirements, the FRFE may need to be identified as FL east coast and FL west coast and may also need to have both purchased if the saltwater recreational angler and for-hire vessel owner intends to harvest reef fish off both coasts.
The FRFE should also have a place to check for the major reef fish species to harvest. Examples are RS (red snapper), GG (gag Grouper), RG (red grouper), GA (greater amberjack), and VS (vermilion snapper). You could also just check G (groupers) instead of the individual species. The purpose of the species checks is to help identify the effort on those species. The cost of the endorsement should be minimum as the purpose is to help identify the effort and harvest also to create a data base for survey uses that will be limited to the actual people who intend to harvest reef fish. Since the state can dedicate funds received from the issuance of a stamp/endorsement, *Page 2*
we suggest that the funds be used for administrative costs (minimal), enforcement (minimal), artificial reef development (minimal), improved effort and harvest data (maximum), dedicated research for enhancement of the species (maximum).
Since the stamp will be purchased and added to the saltwater recreational fishing and for-hire fishing vessel licenses, the data base will include the contact information for the angler and the for-hire vessel owner. By placing the species sought, the data base can be further reduced to include only those anglers and vessel owners who wish to harvest the particular species. This will provide more accurate and timelier data for the particular species. Since saltwater recreational anglers and for-hire vessel owners fishing off Florida are required to obtain a state license regardless of where they are fishing this will provide data from all areas fished, state waters and/or EEZ.
A web based saltwater recreational angler and for-hire vessel owner fishing data reporting system is in a pilot study now. Anglers and for-hire vessel owners should be required to report their fishing experience (for-hire vessel owners would be required to report the number of angler fishing), license number, hours fished, area fished, harvest information with disposition, and any other data deemed necessary. This web based system should include other voluntary data sets that will be helpful to the anglers and for-hire vessel owners such as being able to keep their own records (private), on the site. While this proposal is very simple and we believe it should be kept as simple as possible, there may be other data requirements that the state resource managers may need. This proposal is provided for discussion and we are willing to work with the FWC staff and other interested parties to further develop this endorsement. We will also be presenting this concept to the other Gulf States as we feel that a compatible system created by each Gulf state will further enhance the accurate effort and harvest data for the reef fish species in the Gulf. [For any questions or comments on this issue, please contact Pam Anderson, Operations Manager of Capt. Anderson Marina at [email protected] ]


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

Then buy a stamp for kings, red snapper, black shapper, white snapper, bonita, gag grouper, black grouper all the groupers, Blackfin tuna, yellow fin tuna, greater amberjack, lesser amberjack, hardtails, cigar monnows, spanish macs, ladyfish, bluefish, blah, blah.... This is big money and government. what it rammed up your a$$????????? get ready.

This is just another effort to regulate people out of the fishery.... and give it to the people with the money..... Nope, I'm not falling for this one.......


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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm not pissed I can't catch red snapper, I'm pissed other people can


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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm all for conservation wether I think a species is being overfished or not, What Pisses me the F off is that if I can't catch something that is being "OVERFISHED" what the F gives someone else the rite?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Realtor said:


> Then buy a stamp for kings, red snapper, black shapper, white snapper, bonita, gag grouper, black grouper all the groupers, Blackfin tuna, yellow fin tuna, greater amberjack, lesser amberjack, hardtails, cigar monnows, spanish macs, ladyfish, bluefish, blah, blah.... This is big money and government. what it rammed up your a$$????????? get ready.
> 
> This is just another effort to regulate people out of the fishery.... and give it to the people with the money..... Nope, I'm not falling for this one.......


What about just one stamp for the gulf table fair or reef fish you mentioned above?

I man heck the current plan seems to be going so well for private boat owners why would we want to do anything else?


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> What about just one stamp for the gulf table fair or reef fish you mentioned above?
> 
> I man heck the current plan seems to be going so well for private boat owners why would we want to do anything else?


Hell no….. that’s what a “fishing license” is for….. it’s a money grab. 

Buy a worthless stamp so you can catch and keep a fish that you used to be able to do with your fishing license. Oh, you have to have your fishing license in addition to the stamp. No thanks.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Capt. Wes,
No problem. I respectfully submit however that once you establish a tag per fish system, it will evolve into a pay per tag scenario, and may be the reasoning behind Rob Walton's (Walmart CEO) interest in "securing vital natural resources and protecting ecosystems and the essential services they provide..." It may very well evolve into a scenario where you would have to go to Walmart to purcahse tags for the species desired. It also sets the stage to "limit" the number of stamps available as is currently being studied by the NMFS with recreational catch share pools.

Capt. Jon,
I agree - the federal duck stamp is a model of success in managing a wildlife resource. It doesn't matter if you hunting on a GUIDED hunt or from your PRIVATE boat, if a game warden checks you, you had better have that duck stamp. The feds know EXACTLY how many hunters are hunting and can get a pretty good handle on how many ducks they kill. The stamp also funded the purchase of millions of acres of duck HABITAT, which was extremely successful in helping rebuild their populations.

I would be in favor of a similar Reef Fish Stamp, which would be priced similar to the duck stamp or HMS Permit. The duck stamp, BTW, does not exclude hunters from hunting the resource, limit how many ducks they could shoot in a year (within daily bag limits/seasons), does not convert our Public Trust Resource to private ownership, and is a one-time annual cost - not pay per duck killed. Catch Shares / Sector Separation, BTW, DO ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Sector Separation / Catch Shares are not needed nor wanted.

All the best,
Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

One thing is for sure if you had a reef fish stamp and that followed up with a survey of what and how many you caught on each trip, including discards at least you will have a start on finding out who is actually using the resource. The charter for hire side has been wanting a way to show this for a while and no one has given us a way that is recognizable. 
If you had a tag system on the Recreational side, with survey for each trip. Then the for hire side had some kind of electronic or paper accountability measure followed up by law enforcement with a stiff penalty for cheating. You would be able to see just how many boats are actually using the resource and you would have way better management data. I don't know the exact number but its around 1170 federal permitted boats I am willing to bet that less than half of them are actually like me are full time. As of now there is no real way to know, so they get counted in full in the survey count of fish, which is a pretty crappy way to count fish.


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

I was one of the "chosen ones" for the fish surveys. I had (mandatory to renew my permits) to do the electronic log book. They also have me on the phone survey and call to check if and when and what i caught.
It was the FWC doing the calling.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> *One thing is for sure if you had a reef fish stamp and that followed up with a survey of what and how many you caught on each trip, including discards at least you will have a start on finding out who is actually using the resource. *The charter for hire side has been wanting a way to show this for a while and no one has given us a way that is recognizable.
> *If you had a tag system on the Recreational side, with survey for each trip. Then the for hire side had some kind of electronic or paper accountability measure followed up by law enforcement with a stiff penalty for cheating. You would be able to see just how many boats are actually using the resource and you would have way better management data. *I don't know the exact number but its around 1170 federal permitted boats I am willing to bet that less than half of them are actually like me are full time. As of now there is no real way to know, so they get counted in full in the survey count of fish, which is a pretty crappy way to count fish.


 
^^^^^^^^
True That!
-----------

In the end if the federal governemnt is hell bent creating a charter sector with it's own fish allocation, all I am asking for at this point is for the federal govenrment, *start first by accurately accounting for and finding out who is actually using the resource* including fisherman using their own boat, before they allocate. 

The method described above would work and the prorgam would pay for itself if the cost of the stamp was used to pay for the data collection, and any additional employees necessary etc. If funds were available you could place more artifical reefs and to further develop reef fish hatchery science.


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Thanks for the info*



LITECATCH said:


> I was one of the "chosen ones" for the fish surveys. I had (mandatory to renew my permits) to do the electronic log book. They also have me on the phone survey and call to check if and when and what i caught.
> It was the FWC doing the calling.


*Can you share your opinion with us? 
Is this a satisfactory system? 
Would you grade the questions and forms as "Painting a good picture of as to what you are or are not catching?" 
Would you say that it is taking way too much of your time?

Is the electronic log book monitoring your vessels location?

Thanks
*


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

markw4321 said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> True That!
> -----------
> 
> ...


*:thumbsup: Sounds good 

Fish hatchery??? Why not at least stop harvesting them while they are gathering to spawn?* *Then explore more about hatcheries.*


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

I am not sure what they are doing with the data collected. The electronic log book was just catch info entered on the computer. No vessel monitoring. (yet). They also want to know each time i leave the slip for any reason. They have also come down to the slip to make sure the boat was in the slip when i said it was. (invasion of privacy?)


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## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Thanks for the info. I don't like any of this either. I often wonder does it make any difference, or is it just a "what have you done lately" thing. Bureaucrats, plus lobbyists, and money seldom lead to the truth about anything.* 

*Again thanks for your time and good luck.*


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

LITECATCH said:


> I am not sure what they are doing with the data collected. The electronic log book was just catch info entered on the computer. No vessel monitoring. (yet). They also want to know each time i leave the slip for any reason. They have also come down to the slip to make sure the boat was in the slip when i said it was. (invasion of privacy?)


Now thats "BIG BROTHER" right there.....


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