# Need help ASAP.....



## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

WELL fellas I shot a Buck this morning from my honey hole and I can't find him. I've got great blood but it dries up after 300yds. Anyone in the Panama City, Marianna or surrounding areas have a dog and wouldn't mind helping. Thanks.

MARCUS 

859-819-8732


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## Reelfun27 (Oct 4, 2007)

Call this guy:

drifterfisher- (Jared) 850-537-2045 North Okaloosa County


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## ABailey (May 25, 2010)

Good luck on finding him, if he stopped bleeding, he should be within a 50 radious.


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

I appreciate the info. I managed to get ahold of a dog. So let's hope it works out. It would be awesome if I find this guy. My little brother shot a stud 9pt 10min
s before I shot mine. It'd be kewl if we cash in on trophies together.

Also there is insane blood....I'll keep you guys posted.


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

keep us posted please!!!
send pics when ya smell him up!!


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## tyler0421 (Jan 10, 2008)

Hope yall get/got em before the rain. Been raining here in fwb for a bit now..


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## Travis12Allen (Jun 1, 2011)

Goodluck buddy. Glad you found a dog. Let us know how it goes, and pics pics pics.


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## Rocko (Jul 8, 2010)

Good luck w the search...sounds like he didnt make it far


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

Rocko said:


> sounds like he didnt make it far


Tracked fer 300 yards then lost blood.....How far do you normally track your deer:whistling::shifty:

Hope you find your buck brother!!!! Rain should already be too ya, so keep us posted!!!:thumbsup:


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## Grassflatsfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

Well, did you find him?


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

Well fellas I wasn't able to find my buck....I got ahold of a great dog but just couldn't find him...

Here is how everything went down. I was sitting on my 1 acre honey hole and at 6:30 I had a large dark deer zig zagging through my property. I would see him for a second then he would disappear then reappear. Well the last time he came out he was 15yds from me broadside. So I put the crosshairs of my 30-06 behind the shoulder and boom. He fell down then jumped up and ran directly under my stand. Looked like is front leg was flopping around as he ran. 

He ran 40-50 yds and sounded like he folded up in the bottom, loud crash, little bit of flopping around and then complete silence. I waited 30-40mins to go get him, the only reason I waited for such a short period of time was because my brother smoked a stud. So as I got down and found a pile of white hair. So I went to get my brothers deer than we came back and trailed about an hour and a half later. So we started trailing and not much to show for for the first 70yds. Then all of a sudden we crossed the dirt road and BLOOD IS EVERYWHERE. Looked like a butcher shop for the next 150yds. So we trailed and trailed and the blood ran dry, so we got a dog and trailed for an additional 1000yds with no success. I am not so much mad, but upset that I wounded a nice buck.

HERE IS THE CRAZY PART:
I shoot a 30-06 with 150grain fusion hot round....this round has always done me very very well. So my stand is 24ft high and the deer was 45ft away, by the pathagorean theory the shot was only 51 feet with roughly a 34*angle. With that being said, I am almost positive that at that angle, I hit top of one lung and the bullet came out in the sternum. I really don't know what happened...this is the only deer to ever run when Ive shot it with this gun.

Also when I looked at the hair it was blown downward not outward so the shot wasn't low. I'm guessing the bullet exited out of the sternum. No clue. Any ideas?

Thanks.


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## Slip Knot (Apr 24, 2009)

Based on your description of how the deer ran and his reactions, I would say you hit him high in the front leg somewhere just below the brisket area. I highly doubt you hit him in the body with that caliber and bullet type and him not be dead within 300 yds. A high leg wound bleeds really good for a ways and then shuts off just as you described. Good thing is, if it is a leg hit, he should live.


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

Yeah Slip I would usually agree with you but....his front shoulders where behind a tree. So I don't really know what happened. I think I need a bigger gun. lol


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

From 24ft up taking a 45ft shot (15yds you said). That was a very bad angle. With only a small area like that to cover, your stand doesn't need to be more than a few feet off the ground...

Sorry you lost your deer, but that's a bad set up.


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

Its my transitional setup. The deer ALWAYS walk a ridge and I am somewhat in a draw. So needless to say, to hunt this particular area you have to be up that high. Just one of those things. I should have just waited for him to put some distance between us but I was scared he would not offer me another shot.

Also there are far too many deer on this piece of property to have a stand any lower than 20ft. Lets just say its very very very common to see 5-7+ deer every hunt on this piece of property. So its a required evil.


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## Grassflatsfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

My buddy did the same thing this year. Same kind of blood. We went over a mile or more before we pulled off due to property line changes. Blood was every where the entire trail. He even jumped the road and blood was all over the road and embankment on the other side. Only thing we could figure is he hit the deer forward in the brisket. It left good blood and most likely the deer is dead but he still had some running left in him and thats what he did. My buddy's shot was less than 30yds also. We ended figuring out his gun was not shooting right. He had the scope remounted and the stock refitted and it's shooting under an inch again. He's still sick over losing him.


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

Sorry to hear that. For this very reason I started shooting front shoulder. That seems to demolish the organs and keep the trailing to a minimum.


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

I appreciate it guys. I always always always shoot them in the shoulder but I didn't this time because his shoulder was right behind a tree. Damn.

However the only thing that made today the best day ever hunting for me is 10mins before I shot is my brother killed his biggest buck ever. It's was a 200+lb 9pt with a 16.5in inside spread. That made my day. This Buck was for sure a trophy. Once I figure out how to post pics from my Droid I'll put them up.


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## haybill (Oct 15, 2007)

The only solution I see is to put me in your hunny hole while you search for your deer just to make sure it doesn't circle back... ;-)


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## Catchin Hell (Oct 9, 2007)

Sorry to hear you lost him...


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

Make sure you scope your rifle!!! You may knocked it off a bit....Sorry fer loosing it!


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## BuckWild (Oct 2, 2007)

kaferhaus said:


> From 24ft up taking a 45ft shot (15yds you said). That was a very bad angle. With only a small area like that to cover, your stand doesn't need to be more than a few feet off the ground...
> 
> Sorry you lost your deer, but that's a bad set up.


From the limited amount of info he posted 1ac and 24' up, you surmised he was in a bad setup? 

OP, sorry you lost your deer!


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

CRAP! sorry. it happens


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

BuckWild said:


> From the limited amount of info he posted 1ac and 24' up, you surmised he was in a bad setup?
> 
> OP, sorry you lost your deer!


Yes I did. did you read the post? A 45ft shot from 24ft up..... that's a horrible angle in anyone's book. Never mind the bore to scope center line offset at that short range.

Sight your rifle in for 100 or 200 yds and then go take a 15yd shot! I think you may be surprised where the bullet hits... add a compound angle to that and you have a much bigger problem.

An acre is a incredibly small space... my house sits on two and I can throw a rock at least half way across it....


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## Rocko (Jul 8, 2010)

damn man, sorry to hear you couldnt locate...hopefully he will least live for another chance


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## Catchin Hell (Oct 9, 2007)

I agree to disagree...

This is what Big K is refering to when he's talking about shooting at angles:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

While it's certainly true for long range shooting, it holds little weight with shots less than 100 yds. If it held any weight, just think how many squirrels, snakes, and turtles you would have missed with your .22 when you were a kid stalking the woods from the river bank. Up close, the main thing the shooter needs to keep in mind is did I sight in 1", 2", or 3" high at 100 yds and then compensate accordingly. Your thoughts...

Please pardon the derail...


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

Catchin Hell said:


> I agree to disagree...
> 
> This is what Big K is refering to when he's talking about shooting at angles:
> 
> ...


The "error" is in the close shot with a scope likely mounted 2" or more from the bore centerline while being sighted in at a much further distance. 

the "trajectory error" from the "angle" is miniscule. The problem with the "angle" is bullet path through the animal. 

Next time you're at the range try that short shot of 15yds and see where the bullet hits....just sayin.

With iron sights none of it means anything. Very close in shots with a scope can mean several inches off the mark.


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## BuckWild (Oct 2, 2007)

kaferhaus said:


> Yes I did. did you read the post? A 45ft shot from 24ft up..... that's a horrible angle in anyone's book. Never mind the bore to scope center line offset at that short range.
> 
> Sight your rifle in for 100 or 200 yds and then go take a 15yd shot! I think you may be surprised where the bullet hits... add a compound angle to that and you have a much bigger problem.
> 
> An acre is a incredibly small space... my house sits on two and I can throw a rock at least half way across it....


My point is he never said what type of terrain his 1ac piece of land was. Maybe it has a huge draw in the middle of it and the only trees to climb are in that draw. He may need to get 24' up so the deer dont look him in the eye. Just busting his balls about his setup after he lost a buck, was probably an opinion better kept to yourself. Hell, maybe he farted when he pulled the trigger and pulled down on the shot. You never know.


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## MikeG (Oct 5, 2007)

I look at it like this...Its deer hunting and you take the best shot you feel comfortable with, no matter where you are. You never know where a deer is coming from or how far away he may be when rifle hunting. doesnt mean you still dont think you can take an ethical shot. If your waiting on perfect trajectories and shot angles , then your hunting season will be much more boring than most. Sounds to me like he took a small peice of property and did what he could. I agree , bustin his balls about his stand when you havent seen it, is a little much.


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

Buckwild and donedeal thanks for the backup.

Gun is dead nuts on. I'll check again tomorrow just in case.

Guess it just wasn't meant to be.


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## Travis12Allen (Jun 1, 2011)

Sometimes you just can't get them all Black. That's why its called hunting and not killing. Go where you lost last blood and make some hundred yard circles. That area is where I would focus if I has good blood for a really long time.


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## toma (Oct 10, 2007)

kaferhaus said:


> The "error" is in the close shot with a scope likely mounted 2" or more from the bore centerline while being sighted in at a much further distance.
> 
> the "trajectory error" from the "angle" is miniscule. The problem with the "angle" is bullet path through the animal.
> 
> ...


If the scope is as you say 2" off the bore the that should be the maximum off the mark you can be at close distances. And that is at the muzzle. The bullet should converge on your scopes line of sight at around 50 yards and then start shooting higher. Then be about 1.5-2" high at 100 yards. Then the bullet should start falling and cross the scopes line of sight for the last time at around 200 yards. See a ballistic chart. Most start at -1.5" at the muzzle.
It seems to me the angle really only makes the target a lot smaller (i.e. margin of error). Guess I could be wrong but I don't think the angle has any effect on the trajectory of the bullet at this distance.


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## toma (Oct 10, 2007)

Oh yeah, 45ft shot from 24ft up: Sounds like a great setup to me.


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## ScullsMcNasty (Oct 4, 2007)

I just read a hunting thread about shooting a good buck and the phrase "based on the pythagorean threorem" was used... And someone else, based on said theorem, scolded the shooter for having a bad hunting setup, without ever stepping foot on the property or even seeing a picture of it. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

> Guess I could be wrong but I don't think the angle has any effect on the trajectory of the bullet at this distance.


Never said it did.

What he had was a aiming error caused by both the acute angle (small target area) and the fact that his point of aim vs where the point of impact was going to be add up to a serious error.

Again, go to the range and try it. I have. The results will likely surprise you..... His shot was way low.


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

ScullsMcNasty said:


> I just read a hunting thread about shooting a good buck and the phrase "based on the pythagorean threorem" was used... And someone else, based on said theorem, scolded the shooter for having a bad hunting setup, without ever stepping foot on the property or even seeing a picture of it. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.


Then you should change the channel.


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

I dont needs no fancy book learnin' nor do I need to "go to the range and try it" or acute pythaga-whatever to know that if my "point of aim" and my "point of impact" dont match up - I didn't make a good shot.


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## BANKWALKER (Aug 26, 2009)

Try'n Hard said:


> I dont needs no fancy book learnin' nor do I need to "go to the range and try it" or acute pythaga-whatever to know that if my "point of aim" and my "point of impact" dont match up - I didn't make a good shot.


x2- Well said.


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## WACKEM&STACKEM! (Dec 9, 2008)

the 9 point black's brother killed


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## skullworks (Oct 2, 2007)

Black said:


> Buckwild and donedeal thanks for the backup.
> 
> Gun is dead nuts on. I'll check again tomorrow just in case.
> 
> Guess it just wasn't meant to be.


The only confusion I had was that you said you aimed behind his shoulder because his shoulders were hidden by a tree. I don't know why he would be dragging a leg if you aimed behind his shoulder. Sounds like a leg hit to me also. I shot a doe like that one time and it bleed forever and just stopped...found leg bone from that one but never the deer.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

ScullsMcNasty said:


> I just read a hunting thread about shooting a good buck and the phrase "based on the pythagorean threorem" was used... And someone else, based on said theorem, scolded the shooter for having a bad hunting setup, without ever stepping foot on the property or even seeing a picture of it. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.



Haha!


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## AUtiger01 (Oct 17, 2007)

Wirelessly posted



Try'n Hard said:


> I dont needs no fancy book learnin' nor do I need to "go to the range and try it" or acute pythaga-whatever to know that if my "point of aim" and my "point of impact" dont match up - I didn't make a good shot.


The man is getting flamed for making an educated and very logical explanation to the problem. I don't get it. But I do hate the guy did not find his buck.


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

His shoulders were behind a bush/tree but I could still see parts of his shoulders so I aimed back just a little bit.

As far as the Pythagorean theory, I was just trying to figure out what happened that's all.

Everyone thanks for the thoughts and comments, kjhaus--not your comments. BTW my brother killed the Buck on the previous page out of my stand....guess it was another bad setup.

Thanks for posting Michael.


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## bagged06taco (Apr 7, 2010)

Pythagorean theory only comes into play if said shooter is using linear distance to calculate his shot rather than horizontal distance. If said shooter knows horizontal distance, which I'm sure he's stepped it out to every bush or dirt mound on his one acre honey hole, than the trajectory of the round will be effected little to nothing at all.
Let's just say that said shooter did use linear distance. 45ft was the linear distance (hypotenuse) and he is 24ft high, the horizontal distance would be 38ft, that's a difference of 7 ft. The difference in trajectory is less than .25 in on a 150 gr round between 50 and 100yd when zeroed at 100yd. If the difference is only .25 in over 50 yds than I'm willing to bet that it's little to nothing at all over 7 ft. http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/ballistics.aspx


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

Bagged---I was just trying to make any and every bit of sense that I could on what all went wrong. It hypotenuse was 51ft, with roughly 34* angle. Just trying to figure out how I managed to screw up such an easy shot. Guess it just wasn't meant to be. 

Your idea about the trajectory changing over 7 feet is right. The main part that I question was the angle at which the bullet entered the deer. Was the angle to steep and didn't hit any vitals? Was the shot a little low and blow out the bottom of the chest with no major damage? Damn I hate not knowing.


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## BuckWild (Oct 2, 2007)

Black said:


> Bagged---I was just trying to make any and every bit of sense that I could on what all went wrong. It hypotenuse was 51ft, with roughly 34* angle. Just trying to figure out how I managed to screw up such an easy shot. Guess it just wasn't meant to be.
> 
> Your idea about the trajectory changing over 7 feet is right. The main part that I question was the angle at which the bullet entered the deer. Was the angle to steep and didn't hit any vitals? Was the shot a little low and blow out the bottom of the chest with no major damage? Damn I hate not knowing.


There are some major blood vessels on the inside of the brisket, way in front of the heart/lungs. Could be the shot busted this out and bled like a stuck hog without being a fatal wound. Thats hunting, better luck next time


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## minkmaster (Apr 5, 2008)

56 deer and counting to my credit and I have killed them from a dugout duck blind to about 18 foot in a tree. Only time I ever hunted higher was very uncomfortable with what I perceived as the angles for kill zone and that was a 25 foot tripod that some guy fabricated and left on our lease. Story was he couldn't kill any deer so he gave up. We slaughtered them there tho.


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## ajbell (Dec 28, 2011)

I have let some easy shots get away too, dont feel too bad.


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

Gun...Check
Binoculars...Check
Camo...Check
Scientific Calculator....Check??


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## Catchin Hell (Oct 9, 2007)

bagged06taco said:


> Pythagorean theory only comes into play if said shooter is using linear distance to calculate his shot rather than horizontal distance. If said shooter knows horizontal distance, which I'm sure he's stepped it out to every bush or dirt mound on his one acre honey hole, than the trajectory of the round will be effected little to nothing at all.
> Let's just say that said shooter did use linear distance. 45ft was the linear distance (hypotenuse) and he is 24ft high, the horizontal distance would be 38ft, that's a difference of 7 ft. The difference in trajectory is less than .25 in on a 150 gr round between 50 and 100yd when zeroed at 100yd. If the difference is only .25 in over 50 yds than I'm willing to bet that it's little to nothing at all over 7 ft. http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/ballistics.aspx


Precisely the thought I was trying to convey. The hold over at 100 yds would have more impact on the shot than any other variable because it determines how fast the bullet will cross the line of sight plane. I've attacehd a paint brush picture to help visualize what I'm talking about. If the gun was on, he should have connected well either way. I wouild suspect a small limb played a part in this particular instance as the bullet should have been getting closer to the line of sight plane and not further away at 45'. A mistake many shooters make is to hold three inches lower since they sighted in 3" high at 100 yds. :yes:


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

> Was the angle to steep and didn't hit any vitals? Was the shot a little low and blow out the bottom of the chest with no major damage? Damn I hate not knowing.


Guys are having trouble getting their minds around what happens in this situation. I tried to explain it but perhaps not in a way they understood.

yes the angle was too great.

the average white tail down here (small) has about a 8" kill zone. That angle reduced yours to about 3". Imagine that circle on a target at ground level and then rotate the circle up 30 some odd degrees without moving the deer.... see where I'm going??

You had at least a 2" sighting error due to the range of the shot compared to your sight in range. this has nothing to do with trajectory... your cross hairs and bullet impact don't converge until 100yds. At the muzzle, the center line of your scope is likely close to 2" from the center line of the bore. That distance is not going to close up much if at all at 15yds.

There's also parallax error. Unless you have a AO scope that was adjusted to that range or very close too it there was also a compounded error due to parallax.

Now assuming you had a perfect bench rest quality rest up there and used your best technique to squeeze off the shot, you're still set up to miss the now very tiny vital zone.


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## saltwater redneck (Aug 8, 2011)

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink..... but you can drown him in it .:thumbsup:


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## ScullsMcNasty (Oct 4, 2007)

MrFish said:


> Gun...Check
> Binoculars...Check
> Camo...Check
> Scientific Calculator....Check??


Hahahahahaha


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## bagged06taco (Apr 7, 2010)

"your cross hairs and bullet impact don't converge until 100yds." 
That's funny because in the marine corps we sight our m16's in at 36 yds, it hits the exact same point on the target at 300 yds. That is where you are wrong.


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

bagged06taco said:


> "your cross hairs and bullet impact don't converge until 100yds."
> That's funny because in the marine corps we sight our m16's in at 36 yds, it hits the exact same point on the target at 300 yds. That is where you are wrong.


Man you guys are hard headed.... how the heck does does your iron sight sight in at 36yds and back on target at 300 have ANYTHING to do with what we're talking about?

My original opinion was it was a bad setup. It was and there's just no getting around it. Sorry the guy lost his deer but it was about inevitable under those conditions. A clean kill would have either been shear luck or he'd have been sitting there dialed in for a 45ft shot with a AO scope.

In this graph, two loads are displayed. The green trajectory is a 308 load zeroed at 100 yards. It starts 2" low, rises to the LOA at 100 yards, and then drops off the graph 8" low at 267 yards.


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

In the graph above look where the bullet is at 15yds....the blue line is your POA.

Anyone else?


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## BuckWild (Oct 2, 2007)

kaferhaus said:


> In the graph above look where the bullet is at 15yds....the blue line is your POA.
> 
> Anyone else?


I don't care about the graph and where the POA and POI is. I just thought it was in poor taste that you say it is a bad setup. Is it a bad setup that he is sitting in because he is 24' up, or is it a bad setup that the deer happened to present a clear shot at 15yds? by your earlier quote, it is because he is 24' up on a 1 ac piece of property. Next time he should make sure and tell the deer to refer to the chart and present him with a POA + POI convergence shot opportunity. It's hunting- crap happens and sometimes they walk right under you and sometimes they walk 100 yds out. Thanks for the ballistics information though, I've never really thought too much about it until now. :thumbsup:


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

BuckWild said:


> I don't care about the graph and where the POA and POI is. I just thought it was in poor taste that you say it is a bad setup. Is it a bad setup that he is sitting in because he is 24' up, or is it a bad setup that the deer happened to present a clear shot at 15yds? by your earlier quote, it is because he is 24' up on a 1 ac piece of property. Next time he should make sure and tell the deer to refer to the chart and present him with a POA + POI convergence shot opportunity. It's hunting- crap happens and sometimes they walk right under you and sometimes they walk 100 yds out. Thanks for the ballistics information though, I've never really thought too much about it until now. :thumbsup:


It's a long thread, you probably didn't read all of it and I don't blame you. 

It was a "bad setup" because he was too high up to take a shot that close. The angle marginalized his target area and made a good hit less than certain.

Had he been on ground level or even 8ft up he never would have made the post in the first place because he'd have killed the deer and found it.

Obviously for some guys "losing a deer" is just part of hunting. It isn't for me. I have more respect for myself and the game I hunt to take a marginal shot. I've never had to track any animal I've shot. Yes I've let some trophy's walk away. 

That to me, is part of hunting. There's no trophy out there that's worth taking a risky shot and allowing the animal to run off and die a slow painful death. And I do my best not to associate myself with folks that think that behavior is acceptable.

Anyone can make a bad shot. A limb or branch that wasn't seen etc. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the guys that see horns and have to pull the trigger no matter what.


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## lastcast (Oct 12, 2007)

3 boxes of popcorn $4.50
1 dead horse $250
3 broken shovels Priceless


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## Catchin Hell (Oct 9, 2007)

LOL... This is a trainwreck now and I'm in the middle of it. I believe Big K may have inadvertantly solved the mystery. "Parallex" more than anything probably kept this deer on his feet. Most scopes are parallex free at 100 yds, at 45 feet, there's no telling where those cross hairs were. Black, you can test this yourself. Put your rifle in a vise and position something to aim at approximately 45' from you position. Then move your eye around behind the scope and see if your cross hairs move at that distance. I would think it would be very difficult to hold your rifle in the exact same shooting position as you had it when you sighted in. If you have a parallex problem, the crosshair will move around on the target as you move your eye. Even high end scopes suffer from some parallex up close, but excess parallex will wreck havoc on close in shots and that's all I'm saying... Again, sorry you lost your deer.


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

> I believe Big K may have inadvertantly solved the mystery. "Parallex" more than anything probably kept this deer on his feet.


Nothing was inadvertant, LOL many of these guys were having enough trouble with POA vs POI and the tiny target area left by the acute angle the poor guy was trying shoot.

In manufacturing there's a concept called "error stacking". You can have a product of several small parts that individually are all in "spec" but once put together the thing won't work.

In this case everything worked against this guy.


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

"SET-UP" at least to me - would be an overall picture of your hunting area involving many factors, prevailing wind, deer entrance/exit direction, stand height, cover, etc
Any "set-up" where deer get within range.... is a good setup. As with anything else - sometimes - a good setup can go wrong, ie deer comes in too close. Sometimes they just dont read the script and I say THANK GOODNESS!!
The guy had a good setup - (perhaps a few things need to be re-evaluated... maybe) - just a deer that didn't follow the plan. 
In any case the proper response would have been - "Sorry you lost it better luck next time" rather than "youve got a bad setup"...just my opinion


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## WACKEM&STACKEM! (Dec 9, 2008)

lastcast said:


> 3 boxes of popcorn $4.50
> 1 dead horse $250
> 3 broken shovels Priceless


:thumbup::yes::whistling:


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## lastcast (Oct 12, 2007)

4 broken shovels - WORTHLESS!


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## Black (Jan 24, 2011)

Khaus- you're right.....anytime deer try to climb in the stand with you it's a bad setup. I've taken the same ME courses as you. I know all of the theories and concepts you are applying. Doesn't mean they are right. Still to many factors. So sit back and continue being a keyboard cowboy while I enjoy the outdoors.

Black out.


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