# Recreational Angler Participation



## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

Hey all, 
I just want to remind everyone that I, on behalf of the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council, will be hosting Recreational Angler Participation (RAP) Sessions in Florida. 

On January 11th from 9 a.m. – 12 p.m. in Destin at the Destin Community Center. 

On January 22nd from 6-9 p.m. in Pinellas Park at Bill Jacksons.

On January 23rd from 6-9 p.m. at the Bass Pro in Fort Myers. 

The Council wants recreational fishermen to identify issues they are having with federal fisheries management, and they want to hear your solutions to those problems. 

These workshops are not going to be like your typical public hearing/ scoping meeting. We’re going to facilitate an open ended discussion that aims to identify problems and potential solutions. 

Please join us, and bring your fishing buddies. 
If you have any questions don’t hesitate to email me at [email protected]. 

Your Chum, 
Emily


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## 20simmons sea skiff (Aug 20, 2010)

*ha ha*

best joke all week:thumbdown:


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Why? So ya'll can tell us how you are gonna screw us in person? You are already bought and paid for.


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

Your "chum"? Perhaps not. You and your organization are another layer of the problem while contributing very little to the solution.


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## johnboatjosh (May 19, 2008)

Downtime2 said:


> Why? So ya'll can tell us how you are gonna screw us in person? You are already bought and paid for.


Right on!


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

You can bet your bottom dollar that the owner of Sweet Jodi and the other two boats that are fishing for Red Snapper today will be there to make their voice heard. Shooting the messenger solves nothing. If you know what some problems with the system are and have workable solutions to solve them and you don't go and put it out there then you just shoot yourself in the foot. If I'm not fishing that day I will go and listen to what people have to say about how they view things.


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## amarcafina (Aug 24, 2008)

*Email I sent !
*
("These workshops are not going to be like your typical public hearing/ scoping meeting. We’re going to facilitate an open ended discussion that aims to identify problems and potential solutions.")





Problems are Emily is the Head boat program starting Jan 1st ... The thousands and thousands of Real Recreational fishermen will have to travel 25-30 miles out to catch a RED Snapper when our June 1st season opens.. These "Cattle Boats 50- 60 person each will have the closer public and private reefs Fished OUT by then.
I can see that is your peoples intension's for the last several years so the Money Guys don't have to spend so much on Fuel to make their Greedy living from our Natural Resources ..
When there is a problem arises, always " Follow the Money " and you can find the reason behind the problem .
Thanks for introducing these Workshops but no one believes you group will help or listen to Anything we say..
Alan M.
Orange Beach Al.


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

Nevermind...not worth the effort..


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

amarcafina said:


> *Email I sent !
> *
> ("These workshops are not going to be like your typical public hearing/ scoping meeting. We’re going to facilitate an open ended discussion that aims to identify problems and potential solutions.")
> 
> ...



*Boink* Right on the nose!


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

amarcafina said:


> *Email I sent !
> *
> ("These workshops are not going to be like your typical public hearing/ scoping meeting. We’re going to facilitate an open ended discussion that aims to identify problems and potential solutions.")
> 
> ...


Alan, I got your email. Thanks!!

The head boat collective was allocated 5.4% of the red snapper quota and 2.8% of the gag quota (Gulf wide). 
We constantly hear how abundant red snapper are and I hope that the minor percentage being caught between now and the recreational season does not put a noticeable dent in the population on close reefs.


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> Alan, I got your email. Thanks!!
> 
> The head boat collective was allocated 5.4% of the red snapper quota and 2.8% of the gag quota (Gulf wide).
> We constantly hear how abundant red snapper are and I hope that the minor percentage being caught between now and the recreational season does not put a noticeable dent in the population on close reefs.


You are as blind as your bosses....wake up! It's not about them putting a dent in the population, it's about them having access to the population while we do not!!!!!


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

Wharf Rat said:


> You are as blind as your bosses....wake up! It's not about them putting a dent in the population, it's about them having access to the population while we do not!!!!!


But you do. Without taking away from what you already have (the regular season) this also allows you an additional chance to go out on a head boat catch red snapper and gag when the normal season is closed.


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

GandyGirl said:


> But you do. Without taking away from what you already have (the regular season) this also allows you an additional chance to go out on a head boat catch red snapper and gag when the normal season is closed.


Why should I have to pay them for access to a PUBLIC resource? If you don't see how wrong this is, then you never will or don't care to.


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

That makes perfect sense. Pay head boat captains for access to a public resource outside of recreational seasons. Great idea:thumbdown: 

Floors me that you actually belive in this shit.


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

MrFish said:


> Why should I have to pay them for access to a PUBLIC resource? If you don't see how wrong this is, then you never will or don't care to.


You don't have to. You can wait until the regular season. But, if you want and extra opportunity you're welcome to pay for it.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> But you do. Without taking away from what you already have (the regular season) this also allows you an additional chance to go out on a head boat catch red snapper and gag when the normal season is closed.


How can you post that? Seriously? You want us as rec anglers with our OWN vessels and gear pay these leeches to take us out? Lady, you have truly lost your goddamn mind! I'm not giving those rapists a damn dollar! Your response show just how far out of touch you and the rest of the "council" are!


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

Downtime2 said:


> How can you post that? Seriously? You want us as rec anglers with our OWN vessels and gear pay these leeches to take us out? Lady, you have truly lost your goddamn mind! I'm not giving those rapists a damn dollar! Your response show just how far out of touch you and the rest of the "council" are!


I own my own boat and fish recreationally. I also pay to take head boat and charter trips.


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

GandyGirl said:


> You don't have to. You can wait until the regular season. But, if you want and extra opportunity you're welcome to pay for it.


Why are they the only ones that are allowed to bestow this "extra opportunity" on us?


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

amazing...


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

MrFish said:


> Why are they the only ones that are allowed to bestow this "extra opportunity" on us?


Because they applied for, and were granted, an Exempted Fishing Permit. Private recreational anglers can also develop a program and apply for a permit that would grant them allocation as well.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

With your responses, it just shows how much disregard you and the rest of the council have for the rec angler. Unbelievable. Buy a boat, buy tackle, then have to charter? *derp*. Everyone "gets it" but ya'll. so much for unbiased representation.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Money talks!


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> Because they applied for, and were granted, an Exempted Fishing Permit. Private recreational anglers can also develop a program and apply for a permit that would grant them allocation as well.


Bullshit


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

Downtime2 said:


> Bullshit


Yep, it would be a cold day in hell before they approved one for the regular folk.


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

Downtime2 said:


> With your responses, it just shows how much disregard you and the rest of the council have for the rec angler. Unbelievable. Buy a boat, buy tackle, then have to charter? *derp*. Everyone "gets it" but ya'll. so much for unbiased representation.


Have you done much reading about the Council members themselves? The following three articles are biographies about our Chairman, Vice Chairman, and the Chair of the Reef Fish Committee.

http://gulfcouncil.blogspot.com/2012/12/meet-council-chairman-doug-boyd.html
http://gulfcouncil.blogspot.com/2013/03/meet-council-vice-chairman-kevin-anson.html
http://gulfcouncil.blogspot.com/2013/11/meet-council-dr-bob-shipp-reef-fish.html


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## startzc (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you for that completely useless information. To quote a line from batman, "It's what we do that defines us" Any rule that keeps me from being able to go out and catch dinner for my family but allows people to profit off of the same thing is bad no matter how you try to "church" it up.


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## Caddy Yakker (May 21, 2011)

Makes my blood boil just reading this BS!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Getsome (Sep 28, 2007)

Is this thread for real? I came in late on this but is this GandyGirl a real person? The way she is defending what has been done, I thought this was one of those trolling threads. You know, the ones so erroneous just trying to get a rise out of everyone.


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

She is real:

http://www.gulfcouncil.org/about/staffbios/Muehlstein.pdf


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

Sure I'm real.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

GandyGirl said:


> Because they applied for, and were granted, an Exempted Fishing Permit. Private recreational anglers can also develop a program and apply for a permit that would grant them allocation as well.


So did "they" develop a program? Did they then "apply" to their program? Why do "they" have access to a program that "private recreational anglers" do not? Please explain, because I honestly do not understand.


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

grouper22 said:


> Yep, it would be a cold day in hell before they approved one for the regular folk.


As far as i know the 'regular folk' haven't ever submitted a proposal.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

Please also define to me how "their" 5.4% of snapper and 2.8% of grouper are being measured? Is it exact, or is it a presumptuous measurement like recreational weights are calculated?


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

SaltAddict said:


> So did "they" develop a program? Did they then "apply" to their program? Why do "they" have access to a program that "private recreational anglers" do not? Please explain, because I honestly do not understand.


A group of head boat captains out of Orange Beach, Alabama formed a cooperative and applied for the Exempted Fishing Permit to "test and alternative management system for the head boat industry." 

Here is a link to their application: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...rafz_oyS2FrP7e2vEzNKclw&bvm=bv.58187178,d.cWc

I'm not totally familiar with the application process because it's handed through NMFS not the Councils. If you're interested I can follow up with you on how to do it email me [email protected]


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

SaltAddict said:


> Please also define to me how "their" 5.4% of snapper and 2.8% of grouper are being measured? Is it exact, or is it a presumptuous measurement like recreational weights are calculated?


The allocation for the program was based on historical catch. The head boats in the Gulf have been required to log their daily catch since 1986. There is also a dockside intercept program where biologists sample head boats at docks and compare their logs. 

These numbers were used to estimate how much those boats had caught historically and that's what they were given for the pilot program.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

GandyGirl said:


> A group of head boat captains out of Orange Beach, Alabama formed a cooperative and applied for the Exempted Fishing Permit to "test and alternative management system for the head boat industry." Here is a link to their application: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CEIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Forangebeachintranet.novusagenda.com%2FAttachmentViewer.aspx%3FAttachmentID%3D13535%26ItemID%3D8226&ei=Z_nKUtrFJsXNsQSl4ILgDQ&usg=AFQjCNFFgACrafz_oyS2FrP7e2vEzNKclw&bvm=bv.58187178,d.cWc I'm not totally familiar with the application process because it's handed through NMFS not the Councils. If you're interested I can follow up with you on how to do it email me [email protected]


Why not follow up here, where you can reach a larger audience? 

What is "an alternative management system for the headboat industry?" Is this a management of the "headboat industry," or this delicate resource that the council you represent claims to be so endangered? I'm confused. And so that I am not misunderstood, I do want the charter businesses to thrive, but not at the expense of many to benefit the few.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

GandyGirl said:


> The allocation for the program was based on historical catch. The head boats in the Gulf have been required to log their daily catch since 1986. There is also a dockside intercept program where biologists sample head boats at docks and compare their logs. These numbers were used to estimate how much those boats had caught historically and that's what they were given for the pilot program.


So it is an "honor system" with intercept sampling. 
Can you provide the data (or a link to this data) from this "intercept sampling?"


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> As far as i know the 'regular folk' haven't ever submitted a proposal.


In your professional opinion, why do you believe that is the case?


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

SaltAddict said:


> Why not follow up here, where you can reach a larger audience?
> 
> What is "an alternative management system for the headboat industry?" Is this a management of the "headboat industry," or this delicate resource that the council you represent claims to be so endangered? I'm confused. And so that I am not misunderstood, I do want the charter businesses to thrive, but not at the expense of many to benefit the few.



Red snapper isn't endangered.
The pilot program tests if the head boat industry can utilize their historical portion of the catch in a more effective manner. 
I'm not sure how this program is 'at the expense' of anyone. 
Here is an example: 
Lets say every Friday you and I order a pizza. Every friday when the dinner bell rings at 7 pm. you eat 4 pieces and I eat 4 pieces. One day I ask for permission to eat my 4 pieces when I want them - rather than when the dinner bell rings. You still get your 4 pieces when the dinner bell rings… 
Why/how does that hurt you?


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## Snapperking (May 30, 2009)

SO which Chum will show up to tell us how FAIR this wonderful program Crabby has ok'ed for the Select few charters/head boats to catch Snapper/Gags year round??? I can't even imagine how you can tell us its good for those of us NOT good enough or special enough to qualify for that previledge.Maybe you will employee a used car salesman or lawyer??? Snake oil salesman?? Yeah I want to be there for that!!


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

GandyGirl said:


> Red snapper isn't endangered.
> The pilot program tests if the head boat industry can utilize their historical portion of the catch in a more effective manner.
> I'm not sure how this program is 'at the expense' of anyone.
> Here is an example:
> ...


Because you are secretly lobbying the pizza man to give you the whole pie. Most of us know exactly where this is heading, sector separation with the honest to goodness rec guys losing.


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

grouper22 said:


> In your professional opinion, why do you believe that is the case?


My opinion is one that is both as a private citizen and a professional: I think it's similar to why I don't see tons and tons of private recreational fishermen at meetings and commenting. 

Because fishing is a hobby for recreational folks, not a livelihood. 

Putting together an Exempted Fishing Permit is a lot of work and it's confusing. I think, and understandably so, that it's too much effort and that most people fish recreationally for enjoyment and recreation of fishing - not to get politically involved.

I've been at the Council for 3 1/2 years now - doing everything I can to get people more involved by making it easy and accessible. We've made this webpage with each issue Council is considering and added guides, video tutorials, and comment forms… http://www.gulfcouncil.org/fishery_management_plans/scoping-thru-implementation.php


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

So when the "dinner bell rings," is a reference to the opening of snapper season?
And, when this "dinner bell rings," I can go to the docks and be assured that the headboats in this "cooperative" will be bringing in zero red snapper??


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

MrFish said:


> Because you are secretly lobbying the pizza man to give you the whole pie. Most of us know exactly where this is heading, sector separation with the honest to goodness rec guys losing.



So you agree that the program itself may not harm you as is? You're worried that down the road they will try to take your portion of the fish that they haven't historically caught?


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## startzc (Feb 4, 2013)

Because pizza like fish do not just appear when you want them to. If the head boats are sitting on the closer(cheaper to get to) spots and catching their 4 slices for months before the open season recreational anglers can't just walk up to the table and eat their "4 slices" they would have to drive to the pizzeria and make it themselves.


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

SaltAddict said:


> So it is an "honor system" with intercept sampling.
> Can you provide the data (or a link to this data) from this "intercept sampling?"


The folks I work for are not responsible for the data systems. 
Here is a link to a description of the program: http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/download/SEDAR24-RD56_Brennan2010.pdf?id=DOCUMENT

And a link to the office of the folks who conduct the survey. I bet you can contact them and they'll give you the info you want.

http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/labs/beaufort/sustainable/headboat/


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

startzc said:


> Because pizza like fish do not just appear when you want them to. If the head boats are sitting on the closer(cheaper to get to) spots and catching their 4 slices for months before the open season recreational anglers can't just walk up to the table and eat their "4 slices" they would have to drive to the pizzeria and make it themselves.


The head boats in the pilot were allocated 5.4% of the recreational quota. Will this make a major difference?


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

SaltAddict said:


> So when the "dinner bell rings," is a reference to the opening of snapper season?
> And, when this "dinner bell rings," I can go to the docks and be assured that the headboats in this "cooperative" will be bringing in zero red snapper??


You can be assured that if they do bring in snapper it is counted against their 5.4% of the quota. Each boat in the program will be equipped with an electronic Vessel Monitoring System that tracks it's every move 24hours a day. They must submit a pre-landing notification 1 hour before landing at a pre-approved landing site. And they must electronically log their harvest by the end of each day.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

GandyGirl said:


> You can be assured that if they do bring in snapper it is counted against their 5.4% of the quota. Each boat in the program will be equipped with an electronic Vessel Monitoring System that tracks it's every move 24hours a day. They must submit a pre-landing notification 1 hour before landing at a pre-approved landing site. And they must electronically log their harvest by the end of each day.


With such a small cross section being used as a pilot program, one would think accuracy would be very simple to calculate. Here is "the start of something." So let's just use the same old methods of measure. A best guesstimate with only the honor system to back it up.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

I apologize if your "assurance" doesn't keep me warm and cozy on such a chilly day.


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## blzr (Oct 23, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> Red snapper isn't endangered.
> The pilot program tests if the head boat industry can utilize their historical portion of the catch in a more effective manner.
> I'm not sure how this program is 'at the expense' of anyone.
> Here is an example:
> ...




Why/How does that hurt the private guy??? Easy answer...

The "catch share" charter can own and catch fish anytime they want.. This practically guarantees their catch.

With the private boat owner it is only six weeks. Most of us work full time so we are only able to fish in our spare time, mostly weekends. If we have a few weekends of bad weather or other family obligations with the kids, then we get next to nothing!! 

The catch share owners can just wait until next week and catch the #$%* out of em.... 

They get the luxury of fishing when they want and I don't.

Sad that the feds would use force to take a natural resource from one group of citizens by force and give it to another.

Just wait until the catch share owners start leasing out their catch so they can be the chosen few to sit back and profit from this program at the public expense.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> You don't have to. You can wait until the regular season. But, if you want and extra opportunity you're welcome to pay for it.


Its already been said here, but I will say it again, You can take that statement and shove it up your ass! The day I pay a charter boat captain who sold his soul to steal a natural resource that belongs to everyone will be the day that hell freezes over. 

Your true colors are finally coming out. Crabtree better find him a new PR person because you can't hold your tongue any longer and continue to piss on us and tell us its raining, you are finally telling us how it really is. 

Karma will eventually catch up with the captains who sold out, and prison will catch up with everyone involved in the corruption at the gov't level. Someone will eventually be able to follow that money trail and you all will go sit in a cell!


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## spike (May 25, 2008)

Folks, why do you think the NRA works so well. They attack the Senators and Congressmen and they are relentless. They don't give an inch, because if they do they become weak and will be defeated. The NRA does not care what your positions and on all of the other issues (gay, immigration, ObamaCare, etc) The recreational fishermen need a fishing NRA. These meetings mean nothing. I know fishermen that have been to state capitals and protested, they have been to all of the meetings, they have been to D.C. and protested, it was a waste of time. The ONLY this that will work is to go after politicians with votes. Let them know that no matter what their position is on all of the other issues are, if they do not come through for the rec fishermen then will will get them out of office, no matter what. You try this any other way and you will slowly loose the battle. Once again, anything less and you will loose and this applies to all fisheries (yes, if you feel safe with speckled trout, on day it will be you too and you better not wait until that happens)


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

spike said:


> Once again, anything less and you will loose and this applies to all fisheries (yes, if you feel safe with speckled trout, on day it will be you too and you better not wait until that happens)


That's 110% accurate. Anyone who has been around long enough remembers when all this started with JUST the red snapper. Next was grouper, then triggerfish, Amberjack then Mingos.... Hell I remember people on THIS FORUM joking years ago saying "haha, next they will try and restrict mingos"... Well, they did, and are going to restrict more and more of OUR fish based on bad science. I also agree with needing a NRA type organization. People say CRA, RFA etc, but what have those groups accomplished? They may have won a battle here and there, but they are definitely not winning the war.

The only thing keeping the inshore fish out of danger for now is the fact that they are not federally managed fish. However, once the EDF feels they have completely taken over the federal fishery and have won the war, I assure you they will move into the states fishery the same way, with MONEY... This is a fishermans fight, not an offshore/inshore/blue water fight.. 

I am not inclined to join any of the current organizations due to their inability to make any progress over the last 15 years. I would however give to an organization that had the goals, intentions and plan to fight similar to the NRA...


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

It's not about the fish folks. It's about who can make the most money off said fish. Plain and simple. The fish is a commodity and people want to make money and monopolize the commodity for themselves. It's been this way since the beginning of time. If it was truly about the resource, then all charter and commercial fishing would cease to exist. Just like they have done with hunting most species on land. Take the commercial incentive away and watch the species survive and flourish without any other necessary measures.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Telum Pisces said:


> It's not about the fish folks. It's about who can make the most money off said fish. Plain and simple. The fish is a commodity and people want to make money and monopolize the commodity for themselves. It's been this way since the beginning of time. If it was truly about the resource, then all charter and commercial fishing would cease to exist. Just like they have done with hunting most species on land. Take the commercial incentive away and watch the species survive and flourish without any other necessary measures.



Dead on!!!


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## spike (May 25, 2008)

It's about CONTROL (like everything else that is happening in the country today) Once you have the CONTROL then it's easy to decide who, how and how much money. The only way to combat it with the votes. Again, the NRA is very good at it and it works. I have not seem any other way be successful.


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## jjam (Dec 9, 2007)

GandyGirl said:


> You don't have to. You can wait until the regular season. But, if you want and extra opportunity you're welcome to pay for it.


You are too generous!

Disgusted is all I can come with at present!

Jimmy


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Telum Pisces said:


> It's not about the fish folks. It's about who can make the most money off said fish. Plain and simple. The fish is a commodity and people want to make money and monopolize the commodity for themselves. It's been this way since the beginning of time. If it was truly about the resource, then all charter and commercial fishing would cease to exist. Just like they have done with hunting most species on land. Take the commercial incentive away and watch the species survive and flourish without any other necessary measures.


Two sides to this, The EDF side and the commercial side...

With the EDF it is all about the fish. They want to shut down fishing. They are the PETA nutjob types...

With the commercial guys it is all about the money. Make your money and screw everyone else...

The truth is, the commercial guys are too dumb to realize they are only pawns in this game. They are the middle part of EDF's plan and like the rec guys, once EDF feels like they are making progress towards their ultimate goal, the commercial guys will get the screwing


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

This is off another forum.

Talked to Roy today - many of the snapper landed so far are much larger than the 5 pound average used to determine the number of fish each boat gets in this IFQ program - more like 10 pounds, or double the weight. When asked, Dr. Crabtree said the boats were allocated a certain number of fish, so even if the poundage is doubled, they would not shut down the EFP....so, the question begs; Where is this additional poundage overage going to come from? *It will be subtracted from the recreational quota, taking fish and fishing days from the rest of the Gulf's recreational fishermen.
*
The concept of allocating quota to a group of boats, such as this Headboat Cooperative, has been done before up in the NE when the NMFS approved Amendment 16 regarding sectors - here is a court briefing of what happened when they tried to fight it; http://www.nero.noaa.gov/sfd/Amend16...led.3.2.11.pdf

My point here is that the Gulf recreational red snapper fishery stakeholders include the recreational fishermen who fish aboard the for-hire vessels as well as private vessels. If and when it comes time to move forward with this Headboat (and upcoming charterboat) cooperatives, they will simply implement it without any referendum at all, and the fishermen will be shut out of the process. I believe this circumvents Congressional will; "Except as provided in clause (iii) for the Gulf of Mexico commercial red snapper fishery, the New England and Gulf Councils may not submit, and the Secretary may not approve or implement, a fishery management plan or amendment that creates an individual fishing quota program, including a Secretarial plan, unless such a system, as ultimately developed, has been approved by...... a majority of those voting in the referendum among eligible permit holders with respect to the Gulf Council."

The current EFP is clearly an IFQ, but since it is the cooperative divvies the quota to each boat and not the government, it circumvents the Congressional mandate for a referendum. Even if they decide to do a referendum, the fishermen actually catching the fish will be excluded, and only federally-permitted captains will have a vote. *Since when does owning a federal charter permit entitle one to exclusive access to a Public Trust Resource? *

Here are some numbers to ponder; Alabama and Florida overall red snapper landings are +_80% of the total Gulf landings, yet Texas headboats, (comprising about 1/4 of the Gulf headboats), account for 58% of the total Gulf headboat landings? Doesn't make sense, but since they use the privacy excuse, we cannot see the actual numbers as they relate to each vessel. Also, they were slip-sliding around the idea that their office is responsible for using viable data - 39,000 pounds for the entire Texas CFH fleet equates to only 16 out of 200+ CFH vessels went fishing in 2012? No, entirely bogus, but Crabtree said they HAD to use those numbers. No they don't.

The 17 headboats comprise about 23% of the total Gulf headboats and when you multiply that by the Gulf wide headboat landings average of 14%, you come out with what should have been 3.2% of the total Gulf red snapper quota - not 5.4%. 5.4% - 3.2% = 2.2% difference. 2.2% / 3.2% = 69% increase given to the 17 boats over the Gulf-wide average. It is clear that this headboat EFP has been given unrealistic numbers of fish based on 60% to 70% *OVER* Gulf headboat average in addition to the ability to fish from January 1st onward. This creates a distinct and onerous disadvantage to the boats not participating, with serious financial and business ramifications in the 2 year time frame for those non-participating vessels - *a classic Mafia-style strong-arm coercion tactic designed to force their will*.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

I've asked it before and very few respond. What groups are out there and what have they done? I know about CCA, but what other options? You need someone that is already established like them to hit the ground running, but what would it take to get them to jump in aggressively? Post up some ideas. Let's come up with something.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

If I pay a hunting guide to guide me as a deer hunter, do I get to go off of some special bag limit. NOPE!!! Why is that? Because I am a recreational hunter taking the resource. It's no different compared to a recreational fisherman on his own boat or on a charter boat. They are guides and taxi drivers. Plain and simple. They do not get a special permit to take a resource because the recreational person is doing the actual taking of the resource. Somehow these lobby groups have convinced the powers that be that there should be a special group for some reason.


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## Caddy Yakker (May 21, 2011)

telum pisces said:


> if i pay a hunting guide to guide me as a deer hunter, do i get to go off of some special bag limit. Nope!!! Why is that? Because i am a recreational hunter taking the resource. It's no different compared to a recreational fisherman on his own boat or on a charter boat. They are guides and taxi drivers. Plain and simple. They do not get a special permit to take a resource because the recreational person is doing the actual taking of the resource. Somehow these lobby groups have convinced the powers that be that there should be a special group for some reason.


exactly!!!


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

Very good parallel!


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## spike (May 25, 2008)

"I've asked it before and very few respond. What groups are out there and what have they done?"

Unfortunately I do not think there is a group out there today. Definitely not the CCA. The advantage the NRA has is the 2nd amendment (thank you constitution). We do need a group (RFA is better than the CCA but still is not what is needed) that can do the job and stop trying to be nice and politically correct.

The other thing that makes me angry is that: Skeeter Boats, Grady White, Shimano, Pelagic, Berkley, etc and every other company out there we are buying fishing stuff from are doing NOTHING to help us.

I hate to wish anything bad on any fishing group, but. The most unified group out there is bass fishermen. If they ever get attacked the way saltwater is then maybe they will put together a strong organization. Saltwater is way to fragmented.

Until every one and every company involved in recreational fishing joins together as "1" group, we have a problem.


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## JoeyWelch (Sep 25, 2009)

Here's my question,..Why not just ban this NUT from the forum instead of letting her show up every couple of months and rub all the other forum members faces in shit. She does nothing but add more insult and injury to an already bleeding wound.

It is obvious what the situation is and what the real purpose is. Her post are nothing but another way of saying " Wake up and Scream Motherfkre's" "We just got y'all again".

What else has she ever contributed to this Forum???......Anybody???


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## johnboatjosh (May 19, 2008)

Ever noticed how "the council" always invites rec. angler input? 

Only problem is that the only thing they ever ask is:

"How would you like to get screwed?"

A) Without Lube
B) Without Lube
C) Without Lube
D) All of the above


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## PoolBoy074 (May 2, 2012)

jlw1972 said:


> Here's my question,..Why not just ban this NUT from the forum instead of letting her show up every couple of months and rub all the other forum members faces in shit. She does nothing but add more insult and injury to an already bleeding wound.
> 
> It is obvious what the situation is and what the real purpose is. Her post are nothing but another way of saying " Wake up and Scream Motherfkre's" "We just got y'all again".
> 
> What else has she ever contributed to this Forum???......Anybody???


She doesn't come around THT anymore  .... The endangered fish is nothing more than $$$$$$$..... And we will soon be paying for our "own" shares to catch recreationally..... Some will sale their catch shares.... Some will buy other catch shares.... And some will buy as many unwanted shares as they possibly can.... Then will turn around and "lease" these shares to recreational fisherman and fisher woman.... Kinda sounds like the commercial side of fishing. :whistling: if we the people can ever take back "OUR" fish and "OUR" G.O.M. I will still hold to my promise of a job for you in my pool business after we fire y'all :thumbsup:


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

jlw1972 said:


> Here's my question,..Why not just ban this NUT from the forum instead of letting her show up every couple of months and rub all the other forum members faces in shit. She does nothing but add more insult and injury to an already bleeding wound.
> 
> It is obvious what the situation is and what the real purpose is. Her post are nothing but another way of saying " Wake up and Scream Motherfkre's" "We just got y'all again".
> 
> What else has she ever contributed to this Forum???......Anybody???


 Joey, as much as a POS as I think she is, her message is good for people to know. I think a majority of people here only get their information here, so if she didn't post it I think some people would never know what the issues are. Heck, there was a local charter boat captain on here the other day that didn't even know that some of the headboats were allowed to snapper fish as of Jan 1...


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

Emily,

It is obvious you have an agenda. Given your responses, it is even more obvious that you have very limited knowledge of the agenda you are pushing. You also appear to have zero knowledge of any thing pre 3.5 yrs ago. I wish you the best and hope you enjoy your pizza. 

It is not wise to have a debate with someone such as yourself. To have a proper debate, you must be prepared.


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## JoeyWelch (Sep 25, 2009)

Thanks for editing Wade. I shouldn't have used the C word here. The whole situation just set's my ass on fire and there's really nothing that any of us can do. And it will only get worse. Bad as I hate to say it.

Capt. Jon I understand what you mean. Guess I'm just not that tolerant. But you are right.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

Telum Pisces said:


> If I pay a hunting guide to guide me as a deer hunter, do I get to go off of some special bag limit. NOPE!!! Why is that? Because I am a recreational hunter taking the resource. It's no different compared to a recreational fisherman on his own boat or on a charter boat. They are guides and taxi drivers. Plain and simple. They do not get a special permit to take a resource because the recreational person is doing the actual taking of the resource. Somehow these lobby groups have convinced the powers that be that there should be a special group for some reason.


Exactly!

I've gone out on other folks private boats fishing, given them gas money, went where they decided to go, and even taken their fishing advice. And I had to buy an individual license to do that.

Now I've never been a guided deer, elk, etc hunt .... but do hunting guides provide the license for their customers? Do they get special seasons and bag limits? Not to my knowledge.

My fair solution would be do away with "boat" licenses & consider each and every person catching fish to be an _individual_ recreational angler subject to the same seasons & limits regardless of whose boat they go out on or gear they are using. Wal-Mart is open 24 hours - let 'em buy an_ individual_ license before they get on the boat. 

But _that_ ain't gonna happen, is it?


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

GandyGirl said:


> Red snapper isn't endangered.
> The pilot program tests if the head boat industry can utilize their historical portion of the catch in a more effective manner.
> I'm not sure how this program is 'at the expense' of anyone.
> Here is an example:
> ...


How is that not fair are you stupid!!!! If my competitor can fish when i can't that is not fare!!!!! if my competitor gets to fish when he wants to pick and chose the good days to fish and i cannot i have to fish the time i am given rain wind or sine that is not fair!!!!!! if my competitor gets the full quota because he can fish when ever he wants and i have to hope for good weather or lose my quota due to bad weather or i have inshore trips for other species that is not fair!!!!! if my competitor can fish in the off season meaning fall and winter and spring he will suck up all the business in a crucial time of year the tourist will go in the summer any way they do not know the fish are in or out of season but in the offseason fall winter or spring it's mostly locals or snowbirds they know that i can't keep fish and will not fish with me but chose to fish on the boats that can keep those fish!!!!! i have already lost people to the head boats that can keep the red snapper in a time of year that i need to fish to stay alive and feed my family!!!!!! let me use the same reasoning you did thinking we are stupid when in fact you are the stupid one here!!! If we both get 4 pieces of pizza a week and i can only eat pizza on friday and saturday but we can't eat pizza when it rains or the wind blows to hard and you can eat pizza when ever you want to you are going to eat way more pizza than i am!!!! and if only limited number of pizza show up in the winter and the pizza like you better then the pizza will go to your house to get eaten by you!!!!!! it's hard to explain that to a government employee because you get paid every day rain or shine you don't have to worry about when the money will be there and when it won't be!!!! I can not believe you or anyone can not understand this!!!!!!


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## Caddy Yakker (May 21, 2011)

madfish said:


> How is that not fair are you stupid!!!! If my competitor can fish when i can't that is not fare!!!!! if my competitor gets to fish when he wants to pick and chose the good days to fish and i cannot i have to fish the time i am given rain wind or sine that is not fair!!!!!! if my competitor gets the full quota because he can fish when ever he wants and i have to hope for good weather or lose my quota due to bad weather or i have inshore trips for other species that is not fair!!!!! if my competitor can fish in the off season meaning fall and winter and spring he will suck up all the business in a crucial time of year the tourist will go in the summer any way they do not know the fish are in or out of season but in the offseason fall winter or spring it's mostly locals or snowbirds they know that i can't keep fish and will not fish with me but chose to fish on the boats that can keep those fish!!!!! i have already lost people to the head boats that can keep the red snapper in a time of year that i need to fish to stay alive and feed my family!!!!!! let me use the same reasoning you did thinking we are stupid when in fact you are the stupid one here!!! If we both get 4 pieces of pizza a week and i can only eat pizza on friday and saturday but we can't eat pizza when it rains or the wind blows to hard and you can eat pizza when ever you want to you are going to eat way more pizza than i am!!!! and if only limited number of pizza show up in the winter and the pizza like you better then the pizza will go to your house to get eaten by you!!!!!! it's hard to explain that to a government employee because you get paid every day rain or shine you don't have to worry about when the money will be there and when it won't be!!!! I can not believe you or anyone can not understand this!!!!!!


Nailed it!!!!


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Joey, as much as a POS as I think she is, her message is good for people to know. I think a majority of people here only get their information here, so if she didn't post it I think some people would never know what the issues are. Heck, there was a local charter boat captain on here the other day that didn't even know that some of the headboats were allowed to snapper fish as of Jan 1...


There are a lot of charter boat captains out there that don't know anything about this. I walked the docks the other day in panama city telling them and only 1 out of 15 that i talked to know this is happening the only thing saving us is there is not one head boat operator in panama that will screw his fellow fisherman like that yet!!!! but they know if they don't they will go out of business just like the rest of us will!!!! I feel that if they do join them there boat might find its self at the bottom of the ocean or on fire!!!! and i will just feel bad for the traitor NOT!!!!


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## KingCrab (Apr 29, 2012)

G= indigo Girl,, Do u actually believe U & Yours Cares 1 bit about recreational fishers? Do u understand how much more money is spent / Poured back into the economy by us? Tourist don't keep local businesses open, We do. Tourist don't have to buy a license, We do. Tourist don't do anything for the state of fla except Keep hotels in business. They do go fishing & pay to do that. But, They don't care about any of our problems as you all don't. U don't Need to limit the fishery from rec fishing. U need to limit it commercially. Simple as that is they have pull when we obviously don't. So I'm all in on a NRA style 1 group for us . You all Are in the pockets of the corrupt. Heads should roll Just as the rest of the Gov regime in office now should. If u fish from your own boat, Spend a lot of money every year to do it, u would understand & prolly wise up & quit your job understanding the BS coming from maybe not u but your Nazi organization. Please understand I kinda think u meal well but if u mean well u would be offering us good real futuristic info helping Rec fishers. I know in the future whats going to happen. each fish caught in the state of Florida Will have a pre purchased tag from you . That way all fish caught will be taxed accordingly. Who cares about the conservation side. As u can tell I'm not no college Grad paid for by (US), The Gov Or daddy. We are discussing your future, Not ours. Tell Your Dad I said hey & Move to Fla, Buy a boat, & go recreation fishing. Then u would understand. Kayak Fishing Should require A special permit due to the Plastic chemicals It seeps into The water. Also a Registration. Just kidding, That's only if u work for the Nmf. Gotta ask, Are u getting paid to report on here? We're Not.


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## hsiF deR (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm going to be splitting up my 6 weeks of snapper fishing up throughout the entire 2014. It is likely i will only get maybe 3 trips in during the normal season. I will likely be utilizing one of my days after church.

I thank you for the opportunity to take some of the kings fish!

Good work comrade.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

https://www.facebook.com/GulfCouncil

Take a few minutes and at least visit the page and leave a comment or 3...


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

Downtime2 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/GulfCouncil
> 
> Take a few minutes and at least visit the page and leave a comment or 3...


Do they ever respond or will they just take down the comments?


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

They typically respond, but the person in charge of maintaining the page is a 9-5er. Doubt you will get a response over the weekend. As for getting an educated response...


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

They responded...

Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council Some Council members do and some don't. The 'about us' section of the page explains that the primary purpose of the FB page is not to collect comments: " this page will not constitute an official record, and although Council members and staff may read the page, any opinions expressed will not be submitted as official testimony. " This is a great format for announcements to be made and for dialogue, but it's not the best place to leave your official comments for Council consideration. This is where you should comment: http://www.gulfcouncil.org/fishery_management_plans/scoping-thru-implementation.php...


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

Yea, I saw the response for those of us that don't live on the coast. Has anyone used that Gotomeetings.com, lately? I used it years ago, when it first came out, and if it hasn't changed, then it would be a nightmare for a public event like this.


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