# Proposed changes



## billyb

I got this e-mail today. Proposed changes coming to Zone D. How can they enforce this? If you have a deer in your truck how do they know if it was killed north or south of I10?

For immediate release: August 15, 2013

Changes would improve deer management in northwest Florida’s Zone D

Following months of meetings and evaluations of public preferences, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) has formulated possible changes to deer hunting in northwest Florida for the 2014-15 hunting season. The changes are intended to improve hunter satisfaction.
Under the proposed changes in Florida Zone D, in northwest Florida, the FWC is looking at antler-point regulations in Deer Management Unit (DMU) D-1 that would require that antlered deer have at least one antler with two or more antler points on one side to be eligible for harvest. DMU D-1 is south of Interstate 10. In DMU D-2, which is north of Interstate 10, antlered deer would need at least one antler with three or more points on one side to be eligible for harvest. 
Hunters under the age of 16 would be exempt from the proposed antler-point regulations on private lands and on some wildlife management areas.
Zone D stretches from Tallahassee west to the Florida-Alabama state line.
“The purpose of the antler-point regulations, both in DMU D-1 and DMU D-2, is to protect the majority of 1.5-year-old bucks from harvest while allowing the harvest of 2.5-year-old and older bucks,” said James Kelly, Assistant Deer Management Program Coordinator. “During our outreach efforts, we heard a lot of support for increasing the number of bucks in the population, improving buck-to-doe ratios and increasing the size of bucks harvested.”
Other changes under consideration are to shift the antlerless deer season on private lands in DMU D-1 from the current seven consecutive days to four weekend days during the general gun season. In DMU D-2, antlerless deer days would increase to eight weekend days. Three weekends would occur during general gun season, and one weekend would occur during the muzzleloading gun season. 
“The proposed change in antlerless deer days in DMU D-1 is to fulfill the stakeholders’ goal of maintaining or increasing the deer population while also increasing the flexibility of antlerless deer days during general gun season,” Kelly said. “Deer-herd density and productivity is higher in DMU D-2, which is why we are recommending more antlerless deer days for this unit.”
Kelly said the regulation proposals are based on detailed input from hunters, landowners, farmers and others during a series of public meetings, public webinars, surveys and technical assistance group meetings.
The proposed changes are recommendations by FWC staff and have not yet been presented to Commissioners for consideration and action. More detailed information and the opportunity to provide feedback on both proposals can be made at MyFWC.com/Deer.


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## 706Z

Total utterly BS!


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## Telum Pisces

3 point or better north of I-10 is ridiculous. Sorry, I don't eat horns. I miss SC hunting more and more.


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## 706Z

This really pisses me off!!!Some where along the line,folks decided they wanted to trophy hunt in FLORIDA,..........IN FLORIDA!!!!DUDE go to TEXAS or MISSOURI or ILLNOIS etc.......It should go back to (AND IT USE TO BE)1/2",THATS 1/2" ABOVE THE HAIR LINE!!!!Of course FWC has held meetings,and done surveys,and got imput from JOE BLOW and HIS BROTHER!!!Did they ask you???


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## Tightline

They are giving us more opportunity to harvest does. That should offset it some. Think about it.


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## Baker8425

Wirelessly posted

I got this email today too. I'm on the fence with this one. I've hunted where point restrictions do help out after a few years, but then again In my young days hunting down here if it was brown it was down...getting old and harvesting some big midwest deer kinda changed me... Having more opportunities for Does makes me happy though!


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## MikeG

Well everyone in zone D had the opportunity to go to the public meetings and give input. I did!


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## p3bowhunter

I think its great. to many ppl bragging about killing 13 spikes in a year. The genetics are here for some really nice bucks. Plenty of high quality food around here ( crops/ and browse) , lots of water, and like above stated decent genetics. ....If we could allow more bucks to reach maturity and harvest more does to get the buck to doe ratio closer. We would have a much more intense rut and many more quality bucks harvested. Just saying I've seen some studs come out of black water. These deer aren't " genetic freaks" they are simply bucks that weren't shot as soon as they lost their spots.


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## MikeG

p3bowhunter said:


> I think its great. to many ppl bragging about killing 13 spikes in a year. The genetics are here for some really nice bucks. Plenty of high quality food around here ( crops/ and browse) , lots of water, and like above stated decent genetics. ....If we could allow more bucks to reach maturity and harvest more does to get the buck to doe ratio closer. We would have a much more intense rut and many more quality bucks harvested. Just saying I've seen some studs come out of black water. These deer aren't " genetic freaks" they are simply bucks that weren't shot as soon as they lost their spots.


I agree. If you want to hunt for just meat, then kill a doe. if where you hunt doesnt allow it , then theres a reason.


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## panhandleslim

For those of you who don't 'eat horns' you have an extra doe day in the D-2 proposal and every doe day is moved to the weekend. Should be able to get more meat under these new proposals. 

Frankly, I like the new proposals.....I just don't think they go far enough. I think it should be 4 points on two antlers. Even my 14 year old niece won't shoot anything smaller than an eight point.


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## armyguardus

We need about two more weeks of doe days


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## 706Z

Well,I guess we see where FWC got there input from.I'm going to guess that you all belong to clubs,lease,or private land because you all shoot doe's.And you are right saying that deer don't get old in BW.With 1800 quotas all allowed to bring a guest bringing the total to 3600 hunters on opening day if a deer farts somebody's gonna smell it!There's no room for a deer to get old except on private,or club land.


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## 706Z

panhandleslim said:


> For those of you who don't 'eat horns' you have an extra doe day in the D-2 proposal and every doe day is moved to the weekend. Should be able to get more meat under these new proposals.
> 
> Frankly, I like the new proposals.....I just don't think they go far enough. I think it should be 4 points on two antlers. Even my 14 year old niece won't shoot anything smaller than an eight point.


Yeah, that's what I want to eat,a 3 1/2 year old 8 pt. instead of a spike.I only hunt WMA,They don't do doe days.


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## 706Z

DoneDeal2 said:


> Well everyone in zone D had the opportunity to go to the public meetings and give input. I did!


But do you hunt public land,WMA?


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## John B.

I'm all for it. I get all my meat from does during archery anyways... as I type this, I keep lookin up at a florida deer I killed (on private land but 200 yards away from a WMA) that is 106 3/8ths... I'd let 20 spikes walk to be able to shoot another florida deer like that. 

I'm hunting strictly WMAs this year too, and personally if I'm gonna bust my ass to drag a buck out during rifle season, I'd prefer to drag him by the horns, not the legs. I'm all for 3 on one side.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## 706Z

John B. said:


> I'm all for it. I get all my meat from does during archery anyways... as I type this, I keep lookin up at a florida deer I killed (on private land but 200 yards away from a WMA) that is 106 3/8ths... I'd let 20 spikes walk to be able to shoot another florida deer like that.
> 
> I'm hunting strictly WMAs this year too, and personally if I'm gonna bust my ass to drag a buck out during rifle season, I'd prefer to drag him by the horns, not the legs. I'm all for 3 on one side.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


Saw pics of that deer,if you wanted,you could book a hunt say in texas and pick out a bigger one to shoot.They gotem.


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## John B.

706Z said:


> Saw pics of that deer,if you wanted,you could book a hunt say in texas and pick out a bigger one to shoot.They gotem.


Nah I'll just hunt here for cheap... it's kind of like going fishing an catching a 4lb red snapper every time you go... for some people, that tickles their pickle... but I'd rather have the chance to shoot a nice deer. I'd rather kill a doe than a spike.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## Grassflatsfisher

About time. Glad their making the change. Like was said above, you can't eat the horns so why shoot one with horns. Kill a doe instead.


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## 706Z

Ever wonder why FWC doesn't have doe days on WMA?Only takes 1 buck to breed a bunch of doe's.Keep shootin doe's.That argument is lame.Doe days only apply to clubs,lease,or private lands.


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## MikeG

706Z said:


> But do you hunt public land,WMA?


I did for many years and i went by whatever rules were in place. Didn't bother me. That's the price of hunting so cheap. Hunting is not an inexpensive sport, and if your going to want better opportunities than you have to pay more money. That's the clear facts about it. In reality there are guys who kill only nice bucks on public land. They don't all kill spikes and are still successful.


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## nastukey

706Z said:


> This really pisses me off!!!Some where along the line,folks decided they wanted to trophy hunt in FLORIDA,..........IN FLORIDA!!!!DUDE go to TEXAS or MISSOURI or ILLNOIS etc.......It should go back to (AND IT USE TO BE)1/2",THATS 1/2" ABOVE THE HAIR LINE!!!!Of course FWC has held meetings,and done surveys,and got imput from JOE BLOW and HIS BROTHER!!!Did they ask you???


No one is talking about trophy hunting in Florida. All this is about is trying to manage the population of deer we have so the population is sustainable while also providing a quality hunting experience for those of us who enjoy the opportunity to harvest a quality buck and people like you who feel inclined to kill every deer that walks under your stand. Somewhere there has to be a balance. You can not manage deer in Florida the same way you can in other places and you surely cannot harvest them at the level of some of our neighboring states and still sustain a population over the long term. 

The meetings leading up to these decisions were open to the public on three occasions in march. You should have attended and voiced your opinion. Many people attended the meetings and some of us were also a part of the group that came up with the objectives of which these two PROPOSED changes were derived.


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## fisheye48

706Z said:


> This really pisses me off!!!Some where along the line,folks decided they wanted to trophy hunt in FLORIDA,..........IN FLORIDA!!!!DUDE go to TEXAS or MISSOURI or ILLNOIS etc.......It should go back to (AND IT USE TO BE)1/2",THATS 1/2" ABOVE THE HAIR LINE!!!!Of course FWC has held meetings,and done surveys,and got imput from JOE BLOW and HIS BROTHER!!!Did they ask you???


sounds like you need to find better places to hunt in blackwater! ive seen many rack bucks come out of there on a consistent basis. also know a guy that killed 4 bucks in one year that were 6pt or better in blackwater...so might wanna patch up that case of butthurt you have and scout a little harder


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## 706Z

nastukey said:


> No one is talking about trophy hunting in Florida. All this is about is trying to manage the population of deer we have so the population is sustainable while also providing a quality hunting experience for those of us who enjoy the opportunity to harvest a quality buck and people like you who feel inclined to kill every deer that walks under your stand. Somewhere there has to be a balance. You can not manage deer in Florida the same way you can in other places and you surely cannot harvest them at the level of some of our neighboring states and still sustain a population over the long term.
> 
> The meetings leading up to these decisions were open to the public on three occasions in march. You should have attended and voiced your opinion. Many people attended the meetings and some of us were also a part of the group that came up with the objectives of which these two PROPOSED changes were derived.


You can make up any horn restriction you want on your club or lease,what pisses me off is you all are so happy to have more doe days,yeah THATS DEER MANAGEMENT,guess you missed the part about 1 buck can breed the herd.Shooting doe's decreases the herd!Just like snapper,regulate to death!Once they make it rule ITS GONE!


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## 706Z

fisheye48 said:


> sounds like you need to find better places to hunt in blackwater! ive seen many rack bucks come out of there on a consistent basis. also know a guy that killed 4 bucks in one year that were 6pt or better in blackwater...so might wanna patch up that case of butthurt you have and scout a little harder


There prolly isn't any where in BW that I haven't left boot tracks.I've hunted florida prolly more than any of you,I've seen whats out there!Theres more spikes and trash horned deer in BW than a lot would believe.My living room is full of shoulder mount RACKED BUCKS some from BW so BUTTHURT isn't my description,sounds like some of ya'lls.Might as well shoot a real RACKED BUCK while your in TEXAS,they gotem.


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## scbass

Tightline said:


> They are giving us more opportunity to harvest does. That should offset it some. Think about it.


They are only giving more opportunity for private land. That is not where the doe problem is. It's the WMA's.


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## scbass

DoneDeal2 said:


> Well everyone in zone D had the opportunity to go to the public meetings and give input. I did!


They only listen to the land owners not the rest.


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## scbass

p3bowhunter said:


> I think its great. to many ppl bragging about killing 13 spikes in a year. The genetics are here for some really nice bucks. Plenty of high quality food around here ( crops/ and browse) , lots of water, and like above stated decent genetics. ....If we could allow more bucks to reach maturity and harvest more does to get the buck to doe ratio closer. We would have a much more intense rut and many more quality bucks harvested. Just saying I've seen some studs come out of black water. These deer aren't " genetic freaks" they are simply bucks that weren't shot as soon as they lost their spots.


I am all for the point change but for the doe taking it will not help on BlackWater since there was no change to the rule. At least that is what I read.


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## fisheye48

706Z said:


> There prolly isn't any where in BW that I haven't left boot tracks.I've hunted florida prolly more than any of you,I've seen whats out there!Theres more spikes and trash horned deer in BW than a lot would believe.My living room is full of shoulder mount RACKED BUCKS some from BW so BUTTHURT isn't my description,sounds like some of ya'lls.Might as well shoot a real RACKED BUCK while your in TEXAS,they gotem.


then quit your bitching and go find some deer to kill....you didnt participate in the meetings so you dont get to vote so STFU about the changes! you are the only one to blame here not everyone else....should have went to those meetings and let your voice be heard now huh?:no:


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## Telum Pisces

The fact of the matter is that everyone hunts different and wants to shoot different things.


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## p3bowhunter

You can make up any horn restriction you want on your club or lease,what pisses me off is you all are so happy to have more doe days,yeah THATS DEER MANAGEMENT,guess you missed the part about 1 buck can breed the herd.Shooting doe's decreases the herd!Just like snapper,regulate to death!Once they make it rule ITS GONE!/QUOTE/),,,,.................


First of all , 1 buck cannot breed the herd. Further more most of the breeding is done BY your 2.5-3.5 year olds. If you'll notice the doe comes flashing by with the little dinks in hot pursuit. Then about 15-45 min later ol big boy comes slippin by. ( they keep the territory and do the fighting and the faster more eager sons do the breeding). But of course you wouldn't know that because I'm sure as soon as the doe passes , you start throwing buck shot at any thing behind her.................. And also Snapper gone really???? (A) you must have some terrible numbers , the gulf and Bay are over loaded with snapper. Actually the point where they are eating many other juvenile fish. ( grouper/trigger.etc etc.)..( B)....or you don't dive . I could shoot a legal snapper on Bob Sikes ANY DAY if I wanted. ............ If you have so many issues with current regulations and obviously don't even know what your talking about. Maybe you should stop participating in either, delete your forum profile, and get a Facebook .:thumbsup:


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## 706Z

p3bowhunter said:


> You can make up any horn restriction you want on your club or lease,what pisses me off is you all are so happy to have more doe days,yeah THATS DEER MANAGEMENT,guess you missed the part about 1 buck can breed the herd.Shooting doe's decreases the herd!Just like snapper,regulate to death!Once they make it rule ITS GONE!/QUOTE/),,,,.................
> 
> 
> First of all , 1 buck cannot breed the herd. Further more most of the breeding is done BY your 2.5-3.5 year olds. If you'll notice the doe comes flashing by with the little dinks in hot pursuit. Then about 15-45 min later ol big boy comes slippin by. ( they keep the territory and do the fighting and the faster more eager sons do the breeding). But of course you wouldn't know that because I'm sure as soon as the doe passes , you start throwing buck shot at any thing behind her.................. And also Snapper gone really???? (A) you must have some terrible numbers , the gulf and Bay are over loaded with snapper. Actually the point where they are eating many other juvenile fish. ( grouper/trigger.etc etc.)..( B)....or you don't dive . I could shoot a legal snapper on Bob Sikes ANY DAY if I wanted. ............ If you have so many issues with current regulations and obviously don't even know what your talking about. Maybe you should stop participating in either, delete your forum profile, and get a Facebook .:thumbsup:


Maybe YOU should have been a FWC biologist,no,wait,a MARINE BIOLOGIST!REALLY!


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## espo16

This is good....


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## 706Z

Good luck to all you HORN HUNTERS,hope ya kill 20 , 20pts. Have a great season,DOE SEASON!


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## p3bowhunter

The other PFF members voted.....and What we have here boys is a Obama lovin, tree humpin, close minded Douche Bag.


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## fisheye48

706Z said:


> Good luck to all you HORN HUNTERS,hope ya kill 20 , 20pts. Have a great season,DOE SEASON!


looks like your gonna be horn hunting too there smart guy...or all the deer you kill have the squinty eyes?


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## Tightline

Can't you shoot does with archery in WMA's ?


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## fatpossum

Yes. Does allowed during archery on BW.:thumbsup:


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## scbass

IMO I don't mind the point change but the FWC should have listened to the people that hunt the WMA and give at least 2 doe permits per Quota.


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## HisName

I smell a Rat.
when Alabama started its kill more Does program it was found out that the Insurance agencies were behind the legislation because it is does who generally get hit by cars.
yes the meat hunters will get more meat easily
for a year or 2 then new changes will have to be made because the deer population will be depleted JMO


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## 706Z

Tightline said:


> Can't you shoot does with archery in WMA's ?


Yes, I do,but, it makes more sense to shoot these.These are life time cow horns.I firmly believe that a cow horn like this will always be a cow horn and will only breed back a life time cow horn.Its in the DNA of the FLORIDA deer!BW is full of THEM!!If this new horn restriction be comes law these deer will go unchecked!!!This = MORE COW HORN!!!They will become dominate and will breed unchecked.Good luck finding a rack buck then!!!THINK ABOUT IT!!


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## saltgrass

706Z said:


> This really pisses me off!!!Some where along the line,folks decided they wanted to trophy hunt in FLORIDA,..........IN FLORIDA!!!!DUDE go to TEXAS or MISSOURI or ILLNOIS etc.......It should go back to (AND IT USE TO BE)1/2",THATS 1/2" ABOVE THE HAIR LINE!!!!Of course FWC has held meetings,and done surveys,and got imput from JOE BLOW and HIS BROTHER!!!Did they ask you???


 
They sure did. There was meeting here in our area. I did not go to!!! And there was also a place on there site with a form you could fill out and give your input witch I did. it also allowed you to make your own commits on any issues you wished to bring up. witch I did, on the current laws on the dep permits. 

So every one had there chance to put in the 2 cents...


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## Splittine

706Z said:


> Yes, I do,but, it makes more sense to shoot these.These are life time cow horns.I firmly believe that a cow horn like this will always be a cow horn and will only breed back a life time cow horn.Its in the DNA of the FLORIDA deer!BW is full of THEM!!If this new horn restriction be comes law these deer will go unchecked!!!This = MORE COW HORN!!!They will become dominate and will breed unchecked.Good luck finding a rack buck then!!!THINK ABOUT IT!!


After reading some of your posts it's very evident your knowledge of deer genetics and breeding is far from accurate. Pretty much every statement about the issue is off and very muddy. Anyways good luck in your endeavor.


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## saltgrass

splittine said:


> after reading some of your posts it's very evident your knowledge of deer genetics and breeding is far from accurate. Pretty much every statement about the issue is off and very muddy. Anyways good luck in your endeavor.


xxxxx 10000000000!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BOGIA

Splittine said:


> After reading some of your posts it's very evident your knowledge of deer genetics and breeding is far from accurate. Pretty much every statement about the issue is off and very muddy. Anyways good luck in your endeavor.


 what he said.


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## 706Z

Everybodys got there own opinion,and unless you hunted in black water WMA for the last 25+ years (or at all,because some of you haven't,ever obviously) not in a club in ALA.,it's just that,an opinion.Anyways,no endeavor here except trying to keep huntin with out ridiculous restrictions for a area that I use to hunt.RIDICULOUS RESTRICTIONS!!!


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## Splittine

706Z said:


> Everybodys got there own opinion,and unless you hunted in black water WMA for the last 25+ years (or at all,because some of you haven't,ever obviously) not in a club in ALA.,it's just that,an opinion.Anyways,no endeavor here except trying to keep huntin with out ridiculous restrictions for a area that I use to hunt.RIDICULOUS RESTRICTIONS!!!


Fair enough, your opinions that you are trying to portray as fact are highly incorrect. No I haven't deer hunted Blackwater for 25 years but I do hunt it as my house is surrounded by it on 2 sides so I do know a little about the ecosystem and deer population. Also genetics and breeding is basically the same on Blackwater as it is 20 miles off BW so your argument on how it only pertains there is ridiculous as well. Anyways have a nice day, I'm done with this thread as seeing its not gonna changed anyone's opinions/fact on the ACTUAL truth of deer.


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## John B.

If there can only be cowhorns on blackwater then shouldn't there only be cowhorns on surrounding private land?

There's clubs all around blackwater that kill giants. Fact.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## fatpossum

That spike is a young deer. Probably a 1.5 yr old. Very few deer retain spikes throughout their life.


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## skullmount1988

A cowhorn will not always be a cowhorn ive seen a cowhorn go to an 8 point the next year. I do think they should have made the restriction to atleast two points on one side and not three but certain parts of eglin have a three points on one side and they kill some good bucks out of those sections. Its gonna be hard killing good bucks the first two or three years but after that you should start seeing and killing more good bucks.


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## fisheye48

706Z said:


> Yes, I do,but, it makes more sense to shoot these.These are life time cow horns.I firmly believe that a cow horn like this will always be a cow horn and will only breed back a life time cow horn.Its in the DNA of the FLORIDA deer!BW is full of THEM!!If this new horn restriction be comes law these deer will go unchecked!!!This = MORE COW HORN!!!They will become dominate and will breed unchecked.Good luck finding a rack buck then!!!THINK ABOUT IT!!


HOLY GREASED UP BABY JESUS YOUR IGNORANT! maybe you shouldnt spend so much time on the interwebs and spend some more time reading about deer! i have never seen or heard of a 5 year old spike/cowhorn. If your retarded ass statement were true dont you think there would be biologist all over it trying to figure out what causes it? im starting to think your comment about jim bob and his brother is more like you and your brother/cousin bobby ray...do us all a favor and just stop with your "opinions" because with your "opinions" it makes all of hunters look like they come from the hills have eyes family


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## Telum Pisces

What I don't like about this is the fact that there are some clubs north of I-10 that have been managed for eons as 4 point (total) or better. Why, because that's what the club and the members have wanted. Now, the state is going to come in and say, "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" anymore on your private land that you manage. It's crap!!!!!!!!!

Not everyone hunts for big antlered deer. Some just like to eat the dang things. The club I joined this year is one of those clubs. Heck until this year, there were no antler restrictions on this club. And I have some dang big deer on camera that I hope to get a shot on. But I will shoot smaller antlered deer just the same. I like older, bigger deer just for the sheer fact that they have more meat on their bones than a younger deer. I have a few VERY wide 8 points on camera. And this land has been managed as a club since the late 80's. It backs up to Blackwater as well. 

Does do not have much meat on their bones. Especially around here. I am trying to get the meat to feed my family. Not put horns on the wall. We don't eat any store bought red meat. Deer is it for red meat in my family. So for them to tell me that I can't shoot this or that is taking meat off my table etc...

Hunting is not just a sport for some. It puts food on the table for some as well. 

And yes I did provide input to every survey and request for info that went out from FWC. So I have the right to complain a little.


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## TatSoul

DoneDeal2 said:


> I did for many years and i went by whatever rules were in place. Didn't bother me. That's the price of hunting so cheap. Hunting is not an inexpensive sport, and if your going to want better opportunities than you have to pay more money. That's the clear facts about it. In reality there are guys who kill only nice bucks on public land. They don't all kill spikes and are still successful.


that is a NO BS statement.i got 30k tied up in hunting crap this year so far,9,000 for the lease(No memebrs) just me,diesel fuel,seeds,lime,ferterlizer,fuel for 5 hr trip every weekend since april,wood for shoothouses,ice food drinks for helpers,box blade,tiller,4x4 4 wheeler,repairs to jeep to get it up there,4 trips hauling trailer load of crap,1300 in tractor repairs and maint,1850 for club membership on border lease + 450 and 350 assesment and camp fee,Man it goes on and on not counting climbers and stands and shit but in the end it all pays off when u get in that shoothouse on opening morning,
Just the fuel cost and ice and food everytime i make a trip up there cost me 300 dollars.Thats 300 a week x5 weeks a month already gone.not to mention cameras,lithium batterys,cards,shit i cant even rember half the list


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## lettheairout

This isn't any different then fwc changing fishing regulations


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## fla_scout

lettheairout said:


> This isn't any different then fwc changing fishing regulations


My problem with this rule is that if you kill a buck south of I-10 then it just has to have a fork on one side which I am good with. But if you are north of I-10 the it has to have 3 points on one side????? Let's have it the same both sides of the interstate instead of dividing the zone. See we are all in zone D with the way the FWCC has partitioned us so let's be one zone not a sub-zone. 

I personally see a lot of deer being left in the woods to rot and become coyote food because of this rule. 

What do you do when you see a nice deer with forks and you get down out of your tree stand and find it doesn't have a brow tine like a lot of the Blackwater deer do? Do you try and get it snuck out or do you leave it lay? Most will leave it lay and find somewhere else to hunt for a week or two.

There is no difference between north or south of I-10 for our deer only a ticket for the FWCC.


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## panhandleslim

I'm good with raising the standards for both north and south to three points on one antler or four points on two antlers. 

If you aren't doing any better job of identifying your targets so that you don't know if it is a fork horn or a three point then you will probably be a guy that ends up shooting somebody.


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## Telum Pisces

panhandleslim said:


> I'm good with raising the standards for both north and south to three points on one antler or four points on two antlers.
> 
> If you aren't doing any better job of identifying your targets so that you don't know if it is a fork horn or a three point then you will probably be a guy that ends up shooting somebody.


If you have ever hunting public land where you don't have bait to hold a deer still for you to sit there and study it, you would know that trying to judge a moving deer can be difficult. And when they stop just enough for a shot, you are not focused on telling whether it's got an extra point or two. And that does not mean that you can't tell the difference between a dang human and a deer. 

Sometimes the comments on here are just crazy.:whistling:


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## Splittine

Telum Pisces said:


> If you have ever hunting public land where you don't have bait to hold a deer still for you to sit there and study it, you would know that trying to judge a moving deer can be difficult. And when they stop just enough for a shot, you are not focused on telling whether it's got an extra point or two. And that does not mean that you can't tell the difference between a dang human and a deer.
> 
> Sometimes the comments on here are just crazy.:whistling:


How's that different than hunting in Alabama. Same scenario there as public land. You could say in Al you have food plots but that's only if you hunt them which unless I have my boy I normally don't.


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## Telum Pisces

Splittine said:


> How's that different than hunting in Alabama. Same scenario there as public land. You could say in Al you have food plots but that's only if you hunt them which unless I have my boy I normally don't.


Not too different I suppose. Other than if you are on a club, you have chosen to join said club with antler restrictions etc... You have a choice. Not everyone trophy hunts. I don't know why people that are older and further along in their hunting career don't remember when they were young and enjoyed shooting deer. Every deer that I shoot is a trophy in my book. And it puts food on my table.:thumbup:


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## Splittine

Telum Pisces said:


> If you have ever hunting public land where you don't have bait to hold a deer still for you to sit there and study it, you would know that trying to judge a moving deer can be difficult. And when they stop just enough for a shot, you are not focused on telling whether it's got an extra point or two. And that does not mean that you can't tell the difference between a dang human and a deer.
> 
> Sometimes the comments on here are just crazy.:whistling:





Telum Pisces said:


> Not too different I suppose. Other than if you are on a club, you have chosen to join said club with antler restrictions etc... You have a choice. Not everyone trophy hunts. I don't know why people that are older and further along in their hunting career don't remember when they were young and enjoyed shooting deer. Every deer that I shoot is a trophy in my book. And it puts food on my table.:thumbup:



Guess it all varies from person to person. There is not a person on this forum that likes to kill deer more than me but I have never really gotten much off killing spikes and such. I've always been that way, I have killed way more rack bucks than small deer but I have also put a hurt on the does over the years. After a year or 2 of killing smaller bucks I got over it real fast. And by no means am I saying killing small bucks wrong, it's all personal preference and a deer is different in people's eyes. But I will say I'd rather kill a trophy deer than a 1.5 year old spike. And the way I determine trophy deer is not by horns but by age. I would be just as happy killing a 5.5 year old cow horn as I would a 5.5 120" class. It's about outsmarting a mature deer to me than the size of their horns. If you can hunt and kill a mature deer you can kill anything.

Hell kill you a big ol mature 5.5+ maden doe. Then you have done something. It's about the hunt more than the killing to me.


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## HisName

I am a Meat hunter period. I purchased hunting land for investment and also to provide meat for my family. this takes the strain off many of you who do not eat much deer as I don't buy red meat thoughout the year. My land has approx 30 fawns born each year and I shoot 2 young bucks each year and never shoot Doe's I know many of you think this is bad practice but your probably out there hunting for horns and in a club or lease.Private property owners and meat hunters have a different opinion and I understand this.
many of you want to shoot a big buck with a big rack to hang another dead animal head on the wall where I am older and don't have great teeth anymore.
I want a tender piece of meat instead of the tough gamey tasting piece of testosterone injected piece of meat from constantly chasing Doe's during the Rut.
as a result I let the big Deer go and take two spikes or 3 to 4 points during the year which leaves plenty of young bucks to grow.
this is an old pic from 2 years back but I no longer use cameras or plant food plots. just feed the deer corn and take 2 young bucks. this new rule if adopted with decrease the amount of deer we have and I believe will have no effect on antler growth as genetics is genetics.
I did shoot this 8 point and it was so tough I will not shoot another one , the antlers went to the dump
in 2 years many of you will sit in a tree for a whole day and see nothing once the Doe's start being wiped out JMO - yours may differ


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## fisheye48

HisName said:


> I am a Meat hunter period. I purchased hunting land for investment and also to provide meat for my family. this takes the strain off many of you who do not eat much deer as I don't buy red meat thoughout the year. My land has approx 30 fawns born each year and I shoot 2 young bucks each year and never shoot Doe's I know many of you think this is bad practice but your probably out there hunting for horns and in a club or lease.Private property owners and meat hunters have a different opinion and I understand this.
> many of you want to shoot a big buck with a big rack to hang another dead animal head on the wall where I am older and don't have great teeth anymore.
> I want a tender piece of meat instead of the tough gamey tasting piece of testosterone injected piece of meat from constantly chasing Doe's during the Rut.
> as a result I let the big Deer go and take two spikes or 3 to 4 points during the year which leaves plenty of young bucks to grow.
> this is an old pic from 2 years back but I no longer use cameras or plant food plots. just feed the deer corn and take 2 young bucks. this new rule if adopted with decrease the amount of deer we have and I believe will have no effect on antler growth as genetics is genetics.
> I did shoot this 8 point and it was so tough I will not shoot another one , the antlers went to the dump
> in 2 years many of you will sit in a tree for a whole day and see nothing once the Doe's start being wiped out JMO - yours may differ


they all taste the same when you run them through the grinder! what are you gonna do when you have 500 does and 2 bucks?


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## lettheairout

There are many public land places that have antler restrictions. Eglin has a three point on one side as does the Hutton unit. Good deer killed out of those areas every year. As for it being split sections divided by I10 it should be the same for both areas. The doe weekends probably will only take place on private land anyway, so if people think all the doe will be gone they probably won't change that part but for private land. It will be interesting to see if the changes even get voted in.


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## HisName

fisheye48 said:


> they all taste the same when you run them through the grinder! what are you gonna do when you have 500 does and 2 bucks?


well that wont happen because I have neighbors who shoot anything that walks and will balance things out in your favor. the point is if my estimate is correct then 13 or the 15 bucks born on my land will walk each year and I shoot 1 1/2 YO deer anyway. that is a pretty good balance in IMO besides what happens is the bucks get smart very fast. I am sure everyone here will agree on one thing and that is a buck gets very smart very fast and Doe's not so much.
I am backed up by 6500 acres of International Paper co land and the bucks generally stay in there. The Doe's hang out at my place all the time and during the Day where they are away from the Yotes and I film the bucks coming in at night. the not so smart young bucks who hang with the doe's end up as cubed steak on my dinner plate so I am breeding a smarter deer and the doe's have a place to have their fawns and protect their fawns from the Coyotes in the IPC land. I have completely wiped out the Yotes with a light and gun permit legally. when I bought my land my wife was freaked out because we had a pack sound off by our Camper the very first night. now we stay there and here none at all. so far I have killed 9 . So a refuge nursery has been established and I give more that I take. how many hunters really give back more than they take?
I could post 20 different pics of the growth of one set of twins on my land as I followed these two for a year and may or may not have eaten one the next year. I take pride in my deer management but I go about it differently than every single person will appreciate. who agrees on everything anyway? 
this does not work for everyone but I am a good steward of my land and hope the new rules do not take efect. once again JMO


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## Brad King

I like the proposal as well!!! Nothing wrong with trying to manage a better herd on our WMA's!!!


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## scootman

Personally, I will abide by whatever laws are established by the state. Not a fan of some of them, but I will abide. My concern goes back to the original post's question.....separate standards for hunting areas north and south of I-10....How are you gonna prove to the game wardens north of I-10 that you shot the deer south of I-10 and you're simply transporting the deer for butchering? Seems like a lot of opportunity for citations and fines.

Scoots


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## fairpoint

The only way a buck gets big horns is if he LIVES long enough to grow them....I'm ALL for the new proposal...I have hunted Eglin and BW all since 1980....I have in the past two years hunted the still hunt/3pt rule on one side area....have killed 7 RACKED bucks and have not seen any immature bucks....The older ones run them off....
Barbour county in Alabama has a 4pt.on one side rule..guess where some of biggest
deer live in Alabama.....For all the whiners here go out shining and kill what you want.
For me I prefer to kill mature deer......


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## hyco

Why do you prefer to kill a mature deer?


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## fairpoint

It gives me more satisfaction/gratification of outsmarting an older deer than just killing a yearling that doesn't know he's being hunted....I used to shoot anything that walks....but now I'm more into hunting mature bucks....its a challenge....
Back on the subject....just think if we were only allowed 1 buck a year like most northern states are....we have the longest hunting season ,the most liberal limits of any state...
were lucky to have what we have...this proposal can only IMPROVE the age class of bucks IMO.....


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## hyco

How are you outsmarting? Does he know he's being hunted? No being a smart [email protected]@ but why does your preference outweighs the preference of others. Plus even if anybody could legally kill any deer, couldn't you still hold out for a mature deer. Everything else in nature except man targets the small/weaker prey. We are they only ones with an ego... I guess Mother Nature don't know best


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## fairpoint

At Eglin you have a choice of hunting in the 3pt rule areas and not....I PREFER to hunt in the 3pt rule areas because there are more deer in them and I have a better chance 
of seeing an older age class deer in them....The yearling bucks that I have seen anywhere are pretty dumb and pretty EASY to kill...sure they taste good ..but not much of a challenge to a hunter.....Not being a smart a$$ but why does others preferences outweigh mine???? And if people killed all the young bucks there would be NO mature buck to hold out for....It used to be that way at Eglin...very few bucks and the ones that were there were young....


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## hyco

People are not killing all the young bucks now. If they were then there wouldn't be any big bucks now. I hunt 2 clubs in bama . 1 is 3 on a side and the other is 6 Pts. My place in Florida is 6pt or better. We've killed some good deer on our clubs. People join them clubs because they want to. They have a choice. Just like you hunting the 3pt side of Elgin. You are asking to take the choice away from some folks because of what you want.


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## fairpoint

They kill the young ones at eglin and BW now and have been for a long time....that's why when a big deer gets killed from either place its a big deal and doesn't happen that much.....I do see your point.....different strokes for different folks....if the proposal is adopted the eglin hunters ain't going to like it for a few years but after that I think people will see what a difference it makes......


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## HisName

under the new proposals this deer could live and breed its entire life with no legal season to shoot him.
it is much larger than the 8 point I pictured and would be a Cow horn all his life.
a lot of these Cow Horns in Molino and not shooting them will make even more Cow Horns


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## fairpoint

In that case,IMO the better genetic deer are going to be able to get old enough to compete with and show dominance to these inferior racked deer ....which will in turn give them breeding rights over them.....I'm quite sure the eight point you showed earlier would whip this cowhorn but....given the chance.....


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## saltgrass

l his fuss over having to kill a deer with 3 pt over 2. There are plenty of states that have been doing this for years and have much better deer than we do, MS for one has been 4pt for years. I don't see nothing wrong with trying to make things better. 

Yes the people in clubs have a choice, but you can bet not all the members want there rules in place but stay in. There is a club in Walnut Hill that use to shoot every thing from a 4pt up. When they went to a 6pt 12'' spread there was a lot of folks pissed that where out voted but they stayed in and are now killing a lot better deer. One of them guys would kill 8-15 4pts and 6pt a year . plus his does. just to be able to say he killed that many.

I do think they need to work on the doe days on the wma's, BW , eglin along with the whole area. But up where I hunt they are killing the hell out of them at night with night vision. That is BS , but I don't disagree with they protecting there lively hood. but with the laws they have to follow.

If you don't like what they are doing now. Wait tell the go to a tag program , we have been told that is the way they want to take it. And was told the $5 deer stamp we have to get is how they are paying for the research to decide on they program they go with.


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## John B.

Given the theory that some of y'all are proposing that the cowhorns would take over.... why haven't they yet? Seriously... look at the key deer in south florida (I know, apples and oranges) all I ever see down there is rack bucks... by y'alls theory shouldn't there be an overwhelming majority of cowhorns?

Just something to ponder...

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## Ruger7mmmag

I've had the opportunity to hunt Florida and Alabama all my life and the last 8 years I've been able to compare my lease in Alabama (Atmore) to that of my family's lease near the intersection of Highway 77/hwy 20. Since they started letting the little guys walk and taking does, they've been able to SIGNIFICANTLY enhance their hunting experience. Does are healthier so they are more fertile (dropping two vs. 1) so they actually see more deer per hunt than they did when the were going "brown it's down". Due to letting the deer grow, they've actually been able to get some absolute giants in there where before it was thought it wasn't possible due to "bad genetics, no foodplots, bad soil (sand), too much hunting pressure" etc. 

They also thought they had a "cow horn" problem. In reality, some deer just take longer to "pop". On camera we've seen a deer be a "cow horn" for a few years and then "bam" the next season he's a big 8!

On another note, the majority of deer I've seen people call "cow horn" are actually young deer and it makes them feel better than saying "spike". 

I don't have a dog in this fight so I don't care one way of the other, but managing the buck to doe ratio and age structure will mean when you do see a deer, buck or doe, it'll be a higher quality deer more times than not. 

On our property in Alabama, we've already had a good situation for deer, but since we've been shooting more does and whacking more hogs, the deer population has never been better. 

I can understand the concern, but the research is out there and yes, the first few years will be rough, probably for about 3 years, but after that, you'll wish it would've been managed like this sooner. If meat is what you're after, a doe eats better than the youngest of spikes any day and there's plenty of those out there.


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## HisName

Very good debate so we will see how it turns out. I know my brother in Alabama killed the crap out of doe's when they first became legal just like everyone else in his club. then a few years later he quite the club because there wasn't many deer left.
I still wish the changes would be for public land and leave private owners alone but I doubt that will happen. 
one of the reasons I do not like shooting doe's is some of their fawns are just way to young to be without their moms in the early season IMO


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## Ruger7mmmag

HisName said:


> Very good debate so we will see how it turns out. I know my brother in Alabama killed the crap out of doe's when they first became legal just like everyone else in his club. then a few years later he quite the club because there wasn't many deer left.
> I still wish the changes would be for public land and leave private owners alone but I doubt that will happen.
> one of the reasons I do not like shooting doe's is some of their fawns are just way to young to be without their moms in the early season IMO


That's a very good point, which is how shooting does can be a challenge as well. If they have a small one with them, we don't shoot them. Often, they'll have two with them if the population is "healthy". One thing I've learned by not shooting the first deer I see is that often they come out in this order...fawns/mama does/yearlings/young bucks/mature bucks/wall hangers.

Last season I had a food plot where I saw the same group of deer come out (about 12 in all) an without fail the progression above was followed every time, but always stopped with a small spike. However, in the rut that progression then went further (4pts, 6 pts) and in the last day of the season one year my dad had a 10 point join them (missed him!). 

Here's the what I wouldn't have known if it wasn't for 2 cameras I had back in the woods watching trails to that plot. The bucks and "big boy" were always there, but they would always skirt the plot during daylight hours. It wasn't until the rut that they made their appearance though I had them on camera since before bow season not 200 yards from where all this action took place. 

That's why the next season, I moved a ladder stand about 500 yards into the thick woods behind this plot so I could catch him coming back or going to that plot and that's when I busted this guy just a few minutes after daylight...









If I wouldn't have had cameras and had only hunted that food plot, I would've swore we only had does and "small bucks". Heck the only deer I would've been able to shoot was the small ones. There's always big bucks, you just have to work harder and get more creative to get them.


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## chaddd

I love the changes.


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## Biller48

Telum Pisces said:


> 3 point or better north of I-10 is ridiculous. Sorry, I don't eat horns. I miss SC hunting more and more.


+1, Iloved hunting in SC when I was stationed there, every other weekend was doe weekend after November, therefore I never had a reason to kill a young buck for the freezer.

I also love hunting in my home state of Florida, but I am tired of the powers that be trying to make it a trophy management state. We have excellent herd numbers as a state, but in my opinion our sex ratio is out of wack. We need more nanny's taken, and stop focusing on buck management.

I agree with Telum, horns do not go good with taters and trying to grow trophy bucks in Florida is BS, we need to follow the states that kill a lot of doe's, look at their herd for an example. AL, GA, SC, NC, ETC..


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## Telum Pisces

Biller48 said:


> +1, Iloved hunting in SC when I was stationed there, every other weekend was doe weekend after November, therefore I never had a reason to kill a young buck for the freezer.
> 
> I also love hunting in my home state of Florida, but I am tired of the powers that be trying to make it a trophy management state. We have excellent herd numbers as a state, but in my opinion our sex ratio is out of wack. We need more nanny's taken, and stop focusing on buck management.
> 
> I agree with Telum, horns do not go good with taters and trying to grow trophy bucks in Florida is BS, we need to follow the states that kill a lot of doe's, look at their herd for an example. AL, GA, SC, NC, ETC..



When I was there two years ago, every weekend was doe days. And you were allowed to purchase 4 doe tags at $5 a piece to use on other days. And somehow that state has plenty of deer. Both big and small for everyone. :whistling: Really hate that I didn't get a shot at a velvet deer while I was there.


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## Biller48

Yeah Man, I was there in the mid to late 90's and hunted MCAS Beaufort and all the local WMA's. What a blast. We always filled our freezers early then looked for horns. No wall hangers or velvet, but plenty of deer. SC is got to be the best area to get a velvet legally. We piled up the doe's and still seen plenty every year.


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## fisheye48

HisName said:


> under the new proposals this deer could live and breed its entire life with no legal season to shoot him.
> it is much larger than the 8 point I pictured and would be a Cow horn all his life.
> a lot of these Cow Horns in Molino and not shooting them will make even more Cow Horns


you do know that not all bucks in their first or second year with horns arent gonna be a 4pt or better right?yes it may have been a bigger bodied deer but how do you know that he would always be a cowhorn? did you cut out the jaw bone and age him? guessing no. so with that being said how do you know this want a 2 year old that has been eating very good? Do some research about deer before you start saying things are are no where near true!


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## HisName

fisheye48 said:


> you do know that not all bucks in their first or second year with horns arent gonna be a 4pt or better right?yes it may have been a bigger bodied deer but how do you know that he would always be a cowhorn? did you cut out the jaw bone and age him? guessing no. so with that being said how do you know this want a 2 year old that has been eating very good? Do some research about deer before you start saying things are are no where near true!


I gave a point of view and an opinion in a debate so where is your proof that all Cow Horns turn into big racked bucks? show us some of your kills and the laboratory results of getting their jaws checked. my analysis had to do with size and toughness of the meat which was much tougher than the 8 point so what did your bite of this deer taste like?
perhaps you should be the one to do the research before you decide who can have an opinion and express it.
I have listened to land owners on other forums who say they have had 4 1/2 year Cow Horns. so with these new rules the two year old 3 ,4,5 and 6points will be harvested and the 4 year old cow horns will mate

this sight has an open question just looking to be answered by a know it all professor like yourself 
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_a_whit...ear_old_cow_horn_will_it_always_be_a_cow_horn


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## fisheye48

HisName said:


> I gave a point of view and an opinion in a debate so where is your proof that all Cow Horns turn into big racked bucks? show us some of your kills and the laboratory results of getting their jaws checked. my analysis had to do with size and toughness of the meat which was much tougher than the 8 point so what did your bite of this deer taste like?
> perhaps you should be the one to do the research before you decide who can have an opinion and express it.
> I have listened to land owners on other forums who say they have had 4 1/2 year Cow Horns. so with these new rules the two year old 3 ,4,5 and 6points will be harvested and the 4 year old cow horns will mate
> 
> this sight has an open question just looking to be answered by a know it all professor like yourself
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_a_whit...ear_old_cow_horn_will_it_always_be_a_cow_horn



You are trying to prove a point using wiki answers? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

let me make up something and put on there and that means its real too right...becasue if its on the interweb its the troof right? please use creditable sources next time! If there are 4-6 year old cowhorns running around then why is there nothing published about it? ive have been looking for the last 30 min and cannot find anything saything this other than your famed wiki...but hell i can make up a page saying anything on that site!


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## HisName

fisheye48 said:


> You are trying to prove a point using wiki answers? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> let me make up something and put on there and that means its real too right...becasue if its on the interweb its the troof right? please use creditable sources next time! If there are 4-6 year old cowhorns running around then why is there nothing published about it? ive have been looking for the last 30 min and cannot find anything saything this other than your famed wiki...but hell i can make up a page saying anything on that site!


No , Wiki has no conclusion on the matter or even a post. that is why i hoped you could enlighten all the world with your vast knowledge since most Farmers don't waste time on Cow horns and just wipe them from the herd when possible because of genetics. and cow horn genetics was what I was debating including they now can not be culled.
why are you deciding from Texas what people in Florida can and can not have a opinion on anyway ? don't the Texas guys want your approval before they post an opinion ? post up your credentials and some of your own jaw bone studies instead of running your jaw bone insulting people with opinions you disagree with !
tell us about your property and how you manage the deer population with such scientifically established knowledge of what is right and wrong because even this program we are discussing is just theory and being debated. what University do you teach at anyway?


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## John B.

HisName said:


> No , Wiki has no conclusion on the matter or even a post. that is why i hoped you could enlighten all the world with your vast knowledge since most Farmers don't waste time on Cow horns and just wipe them from the herd when possible because of genetics. and cow horn genetics was what I was debating including they now can not be culled.
> why are you deciding from Texas what people in Florida can and can not have a opinion on anyway ? don't the Texas guys want your approval before they post an opinion ? post up your credentials and some of your own jaw bone studies instead of running your jaw bone insulting people with opinions you disagree with !
> tell us about your property and how you manage the deer population with such scientifically established knowledge of what is right and wrong because even this program we are discussing is just theory and being debated. what University do you teach at anyway?


Actually I'm pretty sure he's half a world away in the sand box... stationed in texas, and is from pensacola. ..

But I digress.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## p3bowhunter

Damn y'all..... Even Micheal Jackson didn't leave this many boys ButtHurt


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## p3bowhunter

I have personally killed a 175 lb 5.5 year old cow horn and a 110 Lb 2.5 year old basket 10 point off of the same property in Florida! There are genetic extremes everywhere ! Look at Shaq and someone with dwarfism. However most of us gall somewhere in the middle.


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## John B.

p3bowhunter said:


> Damn y'all..... Even Micheal Jackson didn't leave this many boys ButtHurt


That's funny.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## HisName

John B. said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure he's half a world away in the sand box... stationed in texas, and is from pensacola. ..
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


regardless of what he is doing it is getting pretty old to be told you cant have an opinion without doing research on things that have little to no research on before you can have an opinion.
I have an opinion about congress and don't need to meet any ones required amount of research to have that opinion. if someone else differs then we should debate the facts verses personal insults
he could have countered my opinion with facts but choose to go the other route


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## p3bowhunter

BOTTOM LINE. The people that dont support this are probably immature, uneducated, trigger happy, egotistical, close minded, Obama lovers . That can't see how not shooting a spike is a good thing.! LMFAO


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## John B.

p3bowhunter said:


> BOTTOM LINE. The people that dont support this are probably immature, uneducated, trigger happy, egotistical, close minded, Obama lovers . That can't see how not shooting a spike is a good thing.! LMFAO


Lol.

Lord knows I've shot spikes. Mostly out of frustration of not killing a buck yet. I am excited and hope the proposed rule passes... it may suck out there for a year or 2, but look at the hutton unit for example... it's 3 on one side and arguably the best WMA in NW florida... there's a reason big deer get killed out there.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## HisName

p3bowhunter said:


> I have personally killed a 175 lb 5.5 year old cow horn and a 110 Lb 2.5 year old basket 10 point off of the same property in Florida! There are genetic extremes everywhere ! Look at Shaq and someone with dwarfism. However most of us gall somewhere in the middle.



and this is why I threw out this observation and opinion to discuss.
some Cow Horns stay Cow Horns and if they are not culled ' [ which this law would forbid ] then their genetics will be passed onto the herd at an increasing rate while the young rack bucks are being culled. I do not see why this possibility can not be discussed and wonder if the people making these decisions think of such things. JMO


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## p3bowhunter

I see where your coming from H.N....however it still is a inferior genetic strand and not the norm. So yes if your theory was implied to a high fenced section ( meaning no other deer could enter the pool ) and you only shot bucks with nice racks and didn't cull the cow horns. Then yes eventually you would have more and more cow horns. However a cow horn CAN father a deer that becomes an 8 point, I have seen this. And in Florida where the population is so dense and new deer are constantly moving in, the odds of that inferior strand taking over is highly unlikely.


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## HisName

p3bowhunter said:


> BOTTOM LINE. The people that dont support this are probably immature, uneducated, trigger happy, egotistical, close minded, Obama lovers . That can't see how not shooting a spike is a good thing.! LMFAO


LOL that is funny but what we have here is the classic divide.
those who hunt public lands and leases for horns and the private property owners who hunt for food.
would be great if they pass this for all public and lease land since this is what most want and even make it 4 or 5 points on one side depending on what side of the road the deer is on. that would mean even bigger deer right?
then leave the private property owners alone as they will be hard to police anyway.


edited to say - I also agree the odds of that inferior strand taking over is more than highly unlikely but entirely impossible.
I just think their genetics will become more common with less throw back genes to make 8 points.

and Fisheye - no hard feelings man , just a little Key Board Sparing at each other.
I can tell you that it is a thoroughly investigated scientifically proven fact that the buck I posted was in fact a Cow Horn his whole life!


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## Telum Pisces

John B. said:


> Lol.
> 
> but look at the hutton unit for example... it's 3 on one side and arguably the best WMA in NW florida... there's a reason big deer get killed out there.


Look at the statistics out of that WMA and you will see that not many deer are shot there at all. In fact only 14 bucks were shot out of there this past year. 4 of those were during the Mobility impaired hunt. So only 10 bucks by the general public off of 7500 acres of land. That's pretty low numbers. 

And again, not everyone cares about shooting "BIG" deer. I agree that this will eventually allow more deer to grow a bit bigger antler wise. But it takes a lot of years for that to come to frutition on a good managed club where everyone is following the rules. It's going to take a lot longer on public lands. Hunter satisfaction on those little surveys that FWC sends out is going to fall big time if these new rules are put in place.

Also, how the hell are they going to allow dog hunting and enforce these new rules. Dog hunters most of the time can't tell if a deer has two or three points when they are shooting at a running deer. :whistling:


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## rab1

Here in Mississippi they went to a 10 inch spread or a 13 inch main beam for most of the state with slightly larger restrictions in the delta.im not really in favor of it but the deer sightings and average size of bucks we kill has gotten better.its tough to judge a bucks size sometimes and those I have any doubt on I let walk.i would rather see them go to a tagging system with a 2 buck of any size limit with stiff penalties for violations.also we get about a 3 week period in the southern wmas to shoot does with a firearm.i don't think you get that in Florida.it will make for better hunting in the long run but doe harvest will need to increase.


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## p3bowhunter

If your eyes are so bad that you can't tell if a deer has a fork at a quick glance then its probably not safe that you have a gun around other hunters .LOL. How many dogs have they buried? Haha


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## John B.

Telum Pisces said:


> Look at the statistics out of that WMA and you will see that not many deer are shot there at all. In fact only 14 bucks were shot out of there this past year. 4 of those were during the Mobility impaired hunt. So only 10 bucks by the general public off of 7500 acres of land. That's pretty low numbers.
> 
> And again, not everyone cares about shooting "BIG" deer. I agree that this will eventually allow more deer to grow a bit bigger antler wise. But it takes a lot of years for that to come to frutition on a good managed club where everyone is following the rules. It's going to take a lot longer on public lands. Hunter satisfaction on those little surveys that FWC sends out is going to fall big time if these new rules are put in place.
> 
> Also, how the hell are they going to allow dog hunting and enforce these new rules. Dog hunters most of the time can't tell if a deer has two or three points when they are shooting at a running deer. :whistling:


I see what you're getting at... but also take in to consideration how many people get drawn for the hutton unit... and then out of that number, how many of them know what they're doing? What was the weather like during that quota period? Hot, cold, windy? 

Not sure how dog hunting will work.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


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## fairpoint

Telum Pisces said:


> Look at the statistics out of that WMA and you will see that not many deer are shot there at all. In fact only 14 bucks were shot out of there this past year. 4 of those were during the Mobility impaired hunt. So only 10 bucks by the general public off of 7500 acres of land. That's pretty low numbers.
> 
> And again, not everyone cares about shooting "BIG" deer. I agree that this will eventually allow more deer to grow a bit bigger antler wise. But it takes a lot of years for that to come to frutition on a good managed club where everyone is following the rules. It's going to take a lot longer on public lands. Hunter satisfaction on those little surveys that FWC sends out is going to fall big time if these new rules are put in place.
> 
> Also, how the hell are they going to allow dog hunting and enforce these new rules. Dog hunters most of the time can't tell if a deer has two or three points when they are shooting at a running deer. :whistling:


 Telum...FYI only 30 quotas are available for the Hutton unit which 7629acres....That's over 220acre/per hunter.....14 bucks out of 30 hunters AND they met the antler requirements.....That's pretty damn good harvest ....Think about it....


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## fisheye48

you people bitching about the changes and what a deer's first horns is what they will always be....remind me of this


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## HisName

I wonder if we will not have many young bucks shot as they are moving through brush only to find out afterwards in a -" field inspection" that they are 1 less point than originally thought and be left behind rather than getting caught with an illegal deer in possession. 

unless your hunting a food plot it will be much harder to tell all the legalities before the opportunity to shoot no longer exist in the Florida scrub.


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## Splittine

HisName said:


> I wonder if we will not have many young bucks shot as they are moving through brush only to find out afterwards in a -" field inspection" that they are 1 less point than originally thought and be left behind rather than getting caught with an illegal deer in possession.
> 
> unless your hunting a food plot it will be much harder to tell all the legalities before the opportunity to shoot no longer exist in the Florida scrub.


If you don't know what you are shooting you have no business in the woods with a gun. Amazing how people hunting woods in clubs in Florida and South Alabama can seem to know what they are shooting. Guess Blackwater has different woods than everywhere else?


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## Telum Pisces

Found a little more info on the proposal here:

http://myfwc.com/hunting/by-species/deer/dmu/zone-d/

Looks like the doe days change is only going to be private lands.

Full report here:

http://myfwc.com/media/2584170/fwc-public-outreach-dmu-report.pdf

Read it then make some educated comments.

I guess my biggest complaint is implementing these rules so strict so fast. Going from a 5" minimum on one antler to 3 points on one side in one season is a bit harsh. I think I would be more in line with something that implemented stricter antler regs over a gradual period so that hunter satisfaction does not simply drop off the face of the earth next year. Implement a forked rule then wait a few years. Then go to 4 points total. Then wait a few more years till you implement a 3 point minimum.


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## Splittine

I love how everyone things FL can't produce good quality deer. FL will never put up numbers like the Midwest but if managed like some other southern states could see an improvement in a few years. I'm not saying the projected changes is the way to go by no means but neither is killing every buck that walks and little to no does. Anyone that's has a clue about how a deer herd works knows that. 

I would love to see FL to do something like AL. But with change to the does, you can't kill does in NWFL like you can in Bama. NWFL has unique circumstances do to the actual small area it is compared to other States.


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## Splittine

Telum Pisces said:


> Found a little more info on the proposal here:
> 
> http://myfwc.com/hunting/by-species/deer/dmu/zone-d/
> 
> Looks like the doe days change is only going to be private lands.
> 
> Full report here:
> 
> http://myfwc.com/media/2584170/fwc-public-outreach-dmu-report.pdf
> 
> Read it then make some educated comments.
> 
> I guess my biggest complaint is implementing these rules so strict so fast. Going from a 5" minimum on one antler to 3 points on one side in one season is a bit harsh. I think I would be more in line with something that implemented stricter antler regs over a gradual period so that hunter satisfaction does not simply drop off the face of the earth next year. Implement a forked rule then wait a few years. Then go to 4 points total. Then wait a few more years till you implement a 3 point minimum.



Why would you drag it out. Seems to me that would be confusing to the less mentally talented. Hell Bama for years was a buck and does a day. They then changed it to 3 bucks a year. That's more dramatic than what FL is trying to do. Since that time there has been better quality deer killed in the state.


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## HisName

Splittine said:


> If you don't know what you are shooting you have no business in the woods with a gun. Amazing how people hunting woods in clubs in Florida and South Alabama can seem to know what they are shooting. Guess Blackwater has different woods than everywhere else?


at 100 - 300 yards you must have eagle eyes if you can see and count small points on a moving buck even if it isn't in the brush , much less if he is crossing a road or trail sideways . how do you see the other antler so well when one is hidden by the other? 
until now I have been able to tell how long a single spike is on a legal deer at a distance while on the move.


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## Splittine

HisName said:


> at 100 - 300 yards you must have eagle eyes if you can see and count small points on a moving buck even if it isn't in the brush , much less if he is crossing a road or trail sideways . how do you see the other antler so well when one is hidden by the other?
> until now I have been able to tell how long a single spike is on a legal deer at a distance while on the move.


Like I said how is this any different from any other state with points rules. If you don't know what you are shooting don't pull the trigger. Somehow I along with thousands of other hunters manage to do it in Alabama.


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## HisName

Splittine said:


> Like I said how is this any different from any other state with points rules. If you don't know what you are shooting don't pull the trigger. Somehow I along with thousands of other hunters manage to do it in Alabama.


OK so no one else thinks the possibility exist of people taking rushed shots in brief opportunities only to find the deer had 1 less point than originally thought. I got it.
ether way this ruling will have little effect on me and I will take 5 points if needed as I see plenty of them .


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## BLACKWATER_BOUNTY

Been waiting on a change like this to happen for a long time now. I've hunted Blackwater WMA for over ten years now and have let a lot of young bucks walk on by hoping they make it to the the next year. Sometimes it pays off sometime it doesn't. I have bucks on my wall to prove that Florida can produce decent racked and mature deer. The key to success is to hunt hard and do your homework. There is a reason it's called hunting.


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## Telum Pisces

Splittine said:


> Why would you drag it out. Seems to me that would be confusing to the less mentally talented. Hell Bama for years was a buck and does a day. They then changed it to 3 bucks a year. That's more dramatic than what FL is trying to do. Since that time there has been better quality deer killed in the state.


Because in BW and other WMA lands, going from a 5" minimum to 3 points on a side is going to make it hard to find a legal deer to shoot for quite a while. It will get there eventually I suppose. There are some nice deer in BW and other WMAs. But they are hard to find and hunt. 

And not everyone's idea of a "quality" deer is the same either. A quality deer to me is one in the back of the truck no matter the antler size. A doe is just as good as a buck to me. It's got red meat that I love to eat. Every deer is a trophy to me. I am thankful for every deer that I see and get to shoot. I've got two deer on my wall. I am proud of them. But I am more proud of the meat that they provided to feed my family. 

I may one day get into the crowd that enjoys growing bigger deer. But I am not there yet at least. And when I do get there, I will definately remember the way I felt earlier in my hunting career and not judge others that want to shoot so called "smaller" deer. Everyone enjoys hunting in different ways and enjoys shooting different size deer as well. 

Not going to please everyone. But I think other than the way does are handled in NWFL, I like the way it is right now as far as deer regs go. 

Great topic of discussion here. Always a lively one because there's a wide range of thoughts on the matter.


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## fisheye48

Telum Pisces said:


> *Because in BW and other WMA lands, going from a 5" minimum to 3 points on a side is going to make it hard to find a legal deer to shoot for quite a while.* It will get there eventually I suppose. There are some nice deer in BW and other WMAs. But they are hard to find and hunt.
> 
> And not everyone's idea of a "quality" deer is the same either. A quality deer to me is one in the back of the truck no matter the antler size. A doe is just as good as a buck to me. It's got red meat that I love to eat. Every deer is a trophy to me. I am thankful for every deer that I see and get to shoot. I've got two deer on my wall. I am proud of them. But I am more proud of the meat that they provided to feed my family.
> 
> I may one day get into the crowd that enjoys growing bigger deer. But I am not there yet at least. And when I do get there, I will definately remember the way I felt earlier in my hunting career and not judge others that want to shoot so called "smaller" deer. Everyone enjoys hunting in different ways and enjoys shooting different size deer as well.
> 
> Not going to please everyone. But I think other than the way does are handled in NWFL, I like the way it is right now as far as deer regs go.
> 
> Great topic of discussion here. Always a lively one because there's a wide range of thoughts on the matter.


if you cant find quality deer in BW then you need to get a little further than 100yds off the road!


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## Splittine

HisName said:


> OK so no one else thinks the possibility exist of people taking rushed shots in brief opportunities only to find the deer had 1 less point than originally thought. I got it.
> ether way this ruling will have little effect on me and I will take 5 points if needed as I see plenty of them .


Now you are putting words in my mouth. And if I'm not mistaking you can kill all the 5 points you want. It's 3 on 1 side not 2 sides. So not really seeing your point in killing all the 5s you want.

Y'all girls have fun debating on your "facts".


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## 192

Thanks for posting the changes---the rest of it, well


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## HisName

Splittine said:


> Now you are putting words in my mouth. And if I'm not mistaking you can kill all the 5 points you want. It's 3 on 1 side not 2 sides. So not really seeing your point in killing all the 5s you want.
> 
> Y'all girls have fun debating on your "facts".


I guess we do not understand each other but my observation over the years has been this.any buck with 3 points on one side generally has 2 , 3 , or 4 points on the other side. I understand I can kill all the 5's I want but I restrict myself to 2 deer each year. even though Doe's can be killed so far I have only killed one and it was by mistake.
no it was not poor eyesight but from walking up on a legal spike who was with a doe . I shot the spike at no more than 30 yards with a ballistic tip in a 270. the spike took one huge leap into the brush as if not hit and the doe that was down range and well to the right dropped like a rock.I couldn't believe my eyes as she was well clear of the spike 
for the sake of legality lets say this was Doe weekend but I just don't like shooting Doe's
anyway I get over to her and she is going in circles on her side.
I almost threw up having to finish her off with my knife and still wondered what went wrong as i thought my scope must be terribly off or loose but what happened was the jacket of the ballistic tip separated and hit her in the spine after a perfect heart shot on the spike who turned out to be pilled up in the brush 20 yards away. really sucked for me and I almost gave up hunting but we need the meat so I had my two deer for the season with 1 shot and did not hunt again that year. that is the only doe I ever killed and will not be shooting my doe's regardless of how legal it is.

I do not hunt for fun , excitement , sport , trophy's , or even the challenge. I did when I was young but now it is just a harvest.


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## Telum Pisces

grouper22 said:


> Thanks for posting the changes---the rest of it, well


Just a proposal at this point. :thumbup: 

But let's all get out there and do what we all love to do. I think it's just the anticipation getting to everyone. I can't wait to be out there on a cool morning watching the sun come up and waiting for that first deer to step out. My heart starts racing the minute I see any deer. I just love that feeling and rush.:thumbsup:

Can't wait for all the adventure posts in the hunting sections.


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## John B.

Telum Pisces said:


> Just a proposal at this point. :thumbup:
> 
> But let's all get out there and do what we all love to do. I think it's just the anticipation getting to everyone. I can't wait to be out there on a cool morning watching the sun come up and waiting for that first deer to step out. My heart starts racing the minute I see any deer. I just love that feeling and rush.:thumbsup:
> 
> Can't wait for all the adventure posts in the hunting sections.


X2

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## HisName

X3 , just watching them is fun


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## John B.

HisName said:


> X3 , just watching them is fun


Heard that...regardless of whether I drop the hammer or not, as long as I see deer, I'm happy happy happy... 




















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## HisName

I will always be odd man out on this forum as I look at everything in life differently but hope there is always room for a different point of view.
pics from my campers porch. some new fawns are out


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## Telum Pisces

Biller48 said:


> Yeah Man, I was there in the mid to late 90's and hunted MCAS Beaufort and all the local WMA's. What a blast. We always filled our freezers early then looked for horns. No wall hangers or velvet, but plenty of deer. SC is got to be the best area to get a velvet legally. We piled up the doe's and still seen plenty every year.


Season is already open where I lived in Charleston. They are already putting some good velvet on the wall.


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## HisName

very impressive Telum.
I hunted Camp Lejeune and MCAS Cherry point [ Havelock ] in the 70's and never saw a rack like that. weyerhaeuser owned most of the land.


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## fla_scout

My only complaint is still allowing bucks killed south of I-10 to only have a fork on one side but north of I-10 having to have 3 points on one side. It just does not make good sense to me. Make it the same for the entire NWFL D Unit.


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## Ruger7mmmag

A few more thoughts bc admit it, this is a fun thread no matter what side you are on. 

If it's all about the harvest, allowing the deer to grow BIGGER means you are more efficient. I shot 6 deer last year (3 bucks, 3 does). When you shoot a buck that is 180-190lbs, you get as much meat as you do in two 110lb does/spikes. 

When you start shooting those does, the big bucks have to move. Those big bucks are already there, they just have no reason to leave when they have tons of does sitting all around them. Same reason i hate feeders and can't stand Alabama is starting to allow that practice. Right now, those who know how to hunt can kill all the deer they want bc the deer have to move more to get the food they need.

edit: PS-the rules need to be the same on both sides of I-10. That's just retarded.


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## lettheairout

Well since a lot of people don't think there will be Any deer to shoot then that's means a bunch of people not hunting. That just made my odds even better.


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## ABailey

lettheairout said:


> Well since a lot of people don't think there will be Any deer to shoot then that's means a bunch of people not hunting. That just made my odds even better.


Amen, should open up a lot of room in the woods. Wont have to worry about driving by 10 trucks on a 1/4 mile trail. These proposals are not new. Many knew that they were in the works. Every year for the last 8 years i have received a phone call shortly after the end of season for a survey of how my hunting season went and how could it be improved. The I-10 boundry is dumb, should have just made it the same. Also, I think we should be able to by doe tags for the wma's. I would gladly pay $10-20 a tag.


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## fairpoint

fla_scout said:


> My only complaint is still allowing bucks killed south of I-10 to only have a fork on one side but north of I-10 having to have 3 points on one side. It just does not make good sense to me. Make it the same for the entire NWFL D Unit.


 Were they distinguishing the two different subspecies of whitetail that we hunt.....IMO eglin deer are of the coastal.....and closer to Alabama you start getting the Virginias...?


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## llllllllll

fairpoint said:


> Were they distinguishing the two different subspecies of whitetail that we hunt.....IMO eglin deer are of the coastal.....and closer to Alabama you start getting the Virginias...?


 
Fairpoint,
I think the difference is not so much subspecies of deer in zone D
but the fact that there is much more agriculture activity North of the I-10 corridor. Deer from around these agg areas tend to get more nutrition than the deer south of I-10 that is mostly sand hill pine forest, which yields more natural food sources that is not as nutritious as the fertilized grounds to the north. The well drained sandy soil just doesn't hold the nutrients as well as the soil found North. It is a very defined boundary that separates two pretty different habitats. THIS is only a theory, based on zero fact and lots of imagination (no animals were harmed while forming this opinion) 
peace.


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## JoeZ

You also can't just look at zone d in relation to where we live because it stretches way east. Look at Appalach, Tate's Hell and those areas over there that are part of it as well. 

These recommendations were not made in a vacuum. There are real people, hunters and public land hunters at that on these advisory panels.


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## nastukey

706Z said:


> You can make up any horn restriction you want on your club or lease,what pisses me off is you all are so happy to have more doe days,yeah THATS DEER MANAGEMENT,guess you missed the part about 1 buck can breed the herd.Shooting doe's decreases the herd!Just like snapper,regulate to death!Once they make it rule ITS GONE!


I hunt on private land not a lease. And yes I do set my restrictions on the deer I harvest. Feel free to check out the pictures I posted last season. I am doing pretty good for a 100 acre tract. This new proposal if passed by the commission will do well for everybody in NW Florida particular those of us on small acreage that would like the chance of seeing that spike that frequents our property, but does not stay there all the time, actuall grow up to be a mature buck. 

As for the doe harvest proposal I am not particularly crazy about the change to a 4 day season south of I-10. I liked the week long season because it provides you with a bit more leeway and more of a chance to adjust your approach whereas on weekends I only hunt on Saturday due to church obligations on sunday. No way do I support over harvesting doe as it can cause populations issues very quickly in the poor habitats we have in Florida.

As for the one buck breeding the entire herd.......I guess it is possible depending on what you consider a "herd".....but I would submit that it is very unlikely.


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## nastukey

scbass said:


> I am all for the point change but for the doe taking it will not help on BlackWater since there was no change to the rule. At least that is what I read.


A point was made in the technical advisory group meeting that part of the problem on some of our WMA's is that the buck harvest has been so high over the years with the liberal regulations that fewer bucks are being seen by hunters. The perception is that the doe numbers are very high when in fact they really are not relative to habitat conditions and if we had restrictions on buck harvest it would help to eventually balance out what would appear to be an "unbalanced sex ratio". Technically, it could be said the ratio is unbalanced but when ratio is skewed in favor over does due to buck over harvest you really can not address the issue with an increase in the doe harvest because the population would likely suffer in the long term.


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## nastukey

706Z said:


> Yes, I do,but, it makes more sense to shoot these.These are life time cow horns.I firmly believe that a cow horn like this will always be a cow horn and will only breed back a life time cow horn.Its in the DNA of the FLORIDA deer!BW is full of THEM!!If this new horn restriction be comes law these deer will go unchecked!!!This = MORE COW HORN!!!They will become dominate and will breed unchecked.Good luck finding a rack buck then!!!THINK ABOUT IT!!


No research that I am aware of has ever shown that a cow horn spike is always a cow horn spike. If you have it please post it.


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## nastukey

saltgrass said:


> l his fuss over having to kill a deer with 3 pt over 2. There are plenty of states that have been doing this for years and have much better deer than we do, MS for one has been 4pt for years. I don't see nothing wrong with trying to make things better. .


Better check on those MS regs again. MDWFP made serious changes to the states deer management regulations about 4-6 years ago...going from the 4-point rule to a minimum inside spread or main beam length depending on the region of the state you are hunting.


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## nastukey

Biller48 said:


> +1, Iloved hunting in SC when I was stationed there, every other weekend was doe weekend after November, therefore I never had a reason to kill a young buck for the freezer.
> 
> I also love hunting in my home state of Florida, but I am tired of the powers that be trying to make it a trophy management state. We have excellent herd numbers as a state, but in my opinion our sex ratio is out of wack. We need more nanny's taken, and stop focusing on buck management.
> 
> I agree with Telum, horns do not go good with taters and trying to grow trophy bucks in Florida is BS, we need to follow the states that kill a lot of doe's, look at their herd for an example. AL, GA, SC, NC, ETC..


No one has ever mentioned tropy management or trophy hunting accept the people who are complaining about change. Every state you mentioned has excellent habitat conditions for deer and therefore the population can handle a more intense doe harvest. Here in Florida we don't have the luxury of doing that and furthermore we would be without a deer population or at least a huntable population in a short time if we went that route.


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## HisName

nastukey said:


> No one has ever mentioned tropy management or trophy hunting accept the people who are complaining about change. Every state you mentioned has excellent habitat conditions for deer and therefore the population can handle a more intense doe harvest. Here in Florida we don't have the luxury of doing that and furthermore we would be without a deer population or at least a huntable population in a short time if we went that route.


 very good post astukey and I certainly agree with that.


I am sure there is no concrete evidence that all cow horns remain cow horns all of their lives and some will not , but we can look at traits in humans that have been well studied.

dwarfism comes to mind. much has been studied about this genetic condition in humans without any real concrete predictions on outcome.
many dwarf's produce full grown children and these full grown children still carry the gene and may have dwarf children.
without any hard evidence I theorise that this is most likely the pattern we will see in white tail deer.


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## saltgrass

nastukey said:


> Better check on those MS regs again. MDWFP made serious changes to the states deer management regulations about 4-6 years ago...going from the 4-point rule to a minimum inside spread or main beam length depending on the region of the state you are hunting.


That is good to know bout that change. I was just making a state ment. they where 4pt or better for years tho. There regs are still better than what ours are as of rite now.


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## 706Z

nastukey said:


> I hunt on private land not a lease. And yes I do set my restrictions on the deer I harvest. Feel free to check out the pictures I posted last season. I am doing pretty good for a 100 acre tract. This new proposal if passed by the commission will do well for everybody in NW Florida particular those of us on small acreage that would like the chance of seeing that spike that frequents our property, but does not stay there all the time, actuall grow up to be a mature buck.
> 
> As for the doe harvest proposal I am not particularly crazy about the change to a 4 day season south of I-10. I liked the week long season because it provides you with a bit more leeway and more of a chance to adjust your approach whereas on weekends I only hunt on Saturday due to church obligations on sunday. No way do I support over harvesting doe as it can cause populations issues very quickly in the poor habitats we have in Florida.
> 
> As for the one buck breeding the entire herd.......I guess it is possible depending on what you consider a "herd".....but I would submit that it is very unlikely.


Well folks, there you have it!This guy hunts on a private piece of property where he feeds HIS deer 6 months out of a year,not unlike over half the people that have posted on this thread.He sets his own limits but he and his posse want to make choices that effects the entire panhandle so he can see HIS little spike reach MATURITY!Kinda selfish I think.Love the part about not being happy about not shooting being able to shoot does but 4 days south of I-10.Poor BABY!Sir, I invite you to come hunt BW WMA, where there are no doe days and if you let a small buck walk it is killed by one of the 1800(3600 with guest)sometimes while still in sight.Where you show up at the spot you want to hunt at 4:00am and there is already two trucks parked there as is the next 5 spots you go to where you've killed bucks before.And where when you do get in a tree some one comes and trys to climb a tree in sight of you, or they start man driving the section your still hunting or run a pack of dogs through!! YOU have no CLUE!!


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## 706Z

AS far as Seeing your deer pics,feel free to look at mine from BW.


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## gastonfish

I have hunted WMA's in Florida for over 25 years, don’t shoot small bucks and haven’t for many years ( WMA or my private land). I probably let 15 to 20 small bucks walk some years. There is nothing wrong with killing a young buck if that is what you feel like doing, but most of the small buck killers will kill as many as they can shoot. I know of a few that will kill 15 or more deer a year. They don’t even clean them they take the Back hams and back straps and the rest is a waste. 
I usually Kill 4 or 5 Racked bucks a year...Why? Because I can’t eat any more than that. And try to keep it at 6 point or better. As far as not being able to see points on a running deer I don’t see where the ethics are in doing that anyway.


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## John B.

Why don't you just get in a lease then, Mike?

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## 706Z

nastukey said:


> A point was made in the technical advisory group meeting that part of the problem on some of our WMA's is that the buck harvest has been so high over the years with the liberal regulations that fewer bucks are being seen by hunters. The perception is that the doe numbers are very high when in fact they really are not relative to habitat conditions and if we had restrictions on buck harvest it would help to eventually balance out what would appear to be an "unbalanced sex ratio". Technically, it could be said the ratio is unbalanced but when ratio is skewed in favor over does due to buck over harvest you really can not address the issue with an increase in the doe harvest because the population would likely suffer in the long term.


Sir,again you hunt in a sheltered world.There is no PERCEPTION that there are too many does in BW,there are to many,again you are invited to see for yourself and I think it should be required of you before you FIX the problem by raiseing the point regs.


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## cobiaphil

HisName said:


> very good post astukey and I certainly agree with that.
> 
> 
> I am sure there is no concrete evidence that all cow horns remain cow horns all of their lives and some will not , but we can look at traits in humans that have been well studied.
> 
> dwarfism comes to mind. much has been studied about this genetic condition in humans without any real concrete predictions on outcome.
> many dwarf's produce full grown children and these full grown children still carry the gene and may have dwarf children.
> without any hard evidence I theorise that this is most likely the pattern we will see in white tail deer.


Just a thought -- if that is the case with whitetails, the genes are not only passed on by the father (buck) but also by the mother (doe) so by not shooting the does you are letting that gene pass on to her yearlings if she is carrying that gene (which the does do play a big role in horn genetics of their off breed and probably more than we think). 

As far as Blackwater I think it is more liability than anything. Just wish they would issue individual doe tags to be used anytime during Black powder and gun season. In 5 sits during Blackpowder in B.W. saw 39 does (some where the same, different day) and 1 little buck. I know where I be during bow season.


----------



## 706Z

nastukey said:


> No research that I am aware of has ever shown that a cow horn spike is always a cow horn spike. If you have it please post it.


This is based only on my personnel hunting experience.There are others that have posted about this too,must be something to it,huh.Again talking about BW CHAMPION WMA


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## 706Z

John B. said:


> Why don't you just get in a lease then, Mike?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner.


Because i'm a cheap bas#$%^,you know that JOHN.:yes:


----------



## 706Z

706Z said:


> This is based only on my personnel hunting experience.There are others that have posted about this too,must be something to it,huh.Again talking about BW CHAMPION WMA


I really don't see how everybodys crying about killing a cowhorn,the regs say it has to be over 5 in.This protects most of the young 1 1/2 year old bucks like its suppose to do.I see a lot of young spikes with less than 5 in.


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## 706Z

cobiaphil said:


> Just a thought -- if that is the case with whitetails, the genes are not only passed on by the father (buck) but also by the mother (doe) so by not shooting the does you are letting that gene pass on to her yearlings if she is carrying that gene (which the does do play a big role in horn genetics of their off breed and probably more than we think).
> 
> As far as Blackwater I think it is more liability than anything. Just wish they would issue individual doe tags to be used anytime during Black powder and gun season. In 5 sits during Blackpowder in B.W. saw 39 does (some where the same, different day) and 1 little buck. I know where I be during bow season.


AGREED! Something must be done about the doe population or the will never be balance in the herd in BW


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## hyco

there aint no way the state is going to allow doe tags in blackwater. i was at the meeting too. we stayed long after and talked with the guys putting in on. pretty much his exact words were; you have 1800 quotas for stillhunt and 800 for doghunt plus the guest permits. that could total 4400 hunters killing a doe. it aint going to happen. we did talk about a doe day on one of the blackpowder days. sure more folks would get a muzzleloader but not everyone would kill a deer on that day


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## nastukey

706Z said:


> Well folks, there you have it!This guy hunts on a private piece of property where he feeds HIS deer 6 months out of a year,not unlike over half the people that have posted on this thread.He sets his own limits but he and his posse want to make choices that effects the entire panhandle so he can see HIS little spike reach MATURITY!Kinda selfish I think.Love the part about not being happy about not shooting being able to shoot does but 4 days south of I-10.Poor BABY!Sir, I invite you to come hunt BW WMA, where there are no doe days and if you let a small buck walk it is killed by one of the 1800(3600 with guest)sometimes while still in sight.Where you show up at the spot you want to hunt at 4:00am and there is already two trucks parked there as is the next 5 spots you go to where you've killed bucks before.And where when you do get in a tree some one comes and trys to climb a tree in sight of you, or they start man driving the section your still hunting or run a pack of dogs through!! YOU have no CLUE!!


First of all you are being an idiot. I hunt on private land. I maintain supplemental feeding on the property 12 months...that's foodplots and/or pellets, corn, and soybean. As for the "posse" to which you refer that would be myself, my nephew, and sometimes my brother but most of all me....hardly a posse by any stretch of the imagination...just a few guys that enjoy the outdoors whether we are able to drag a deer out of the woods or simply enjoy our time in the field. Either way it is exciting.

Where did I whine about not being able to shoot doe? If anything I said I was against over harvest of doe because it can and will negatively affect the population. 

Seems to me like you are the one "without a clue". Maybe some basics in wildlife management would help you. You should purchase deer management 101 by dr. Grant woods. He will show you how pretty much all that has spewed from your mouth is garbage in regards to wildlife management. Than perhaps you could follow up with some lessons in social skills...maybe dr. Phil has a book you can read to help you there.....your personal attacks are out of line. 

On a final note, one of the basics of wildlife management is you manage the resource at the population level. Sure there are some variations in how some WMA'S are managed in relation to others but the majority of decisions are made at the population level and that is ultimately what the state is trying to do with these proposals.

One more thing, how much of your tax dollars have gone to help me with managing the habitat on my private land. That's right....not a red cent!!! This is why private land hunters and non-hunters and for that matter anti-hunters have a right to comment or question what goes on in our state's WMA's and other conservation areas. It is a publicly owned resource supported by public tax dollars not just license and deer permit purchases.

Have a good day!!


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## TatSoul

Man some people are really upset about this antler restriction.Its not this guy is the only person that has to shoot a 3 on one side.Alot of the tiny deer being shot will eventually be 6 point deer.I cant see how this is that big of a deal..Maybe the ones crying about it should push for a spotted fawn season to offset the difference.


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## 192

The younger the meat the sweeter the treat. I betcha some people would be ok with that. Not me though.


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## 706Z

Sir,I don't tell YOU what to hunt(SHOOT),please explain why you feel it is your duty to decide for me(the rest of the panhandle).DO you hunt, fish,bike, ride horses,camp,swim,walk the nature trails on any of the WMA's?You seem to be such an authority on WMA's deer management,have you ever been to one?You really think anybody that does not hunt in FL but,pays taxes in FL gives 2 @#$%s about your point regs.Oh,and as far as my tax dollars going to feed your deer on your private land so you can kill a "QUALITY BUCK",well,you know.


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## fairpoint

I got an idea....the proposal won't go into effect till next year...why don't we shoot ALL of the big cowhorns THIS year ....It'll take a lot of ammo ,but it can be done,lol.....


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## Telum Pisces

fairpoint said:


> I got an idea....the proposal won't go into effect till next year...why don't we shoot ALL of the big cowhorns THIS year ....It'll take a lot of ammo ,but it can be done,lol.....


Stack em deep:


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## p3bowhunter

What a D-bag Lmao! You can shoot more does ( of any age) for your " tender " meat. I mean damn!


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## TatSoul

706Z said:


> Sir,I don't tell YOU what to hunt(SHOOT),please explain why you feel it is your duty to decide for me(the rest of the panhandle).DO you hunt, fish,bike, ride horses,camp,swim,walk the nature trails on any of the WMA's?You seem to be such an authority on WMA's deer management,have you ever been to one?You really think anybody that does not hunt in FL but,pays taxes in FL gives 2 @#$%s about your point regs.Oh,and as far as my tax dollars going to feed your deer on your private land so you can kill a "QUALITY BUCK",well,you know.


Its no different than putting sizes on fish.The state sets the regs.Alot of folks dont agree with it but in the long run it definitely makes the overall health of the resource better so whats the big deal here?I really do not think a few unchecked cowhorn deer are gonna breed a bunch of crappy deer into oblivion.I know private clubs that are 12 inch inside spread 6 point and better and there is no shortage of studs on there land.Im sure alot of old ass cowhorn deer probably die of old age..To me deer hunting is not all about the deer or meat its about being in the woods and seeing the outdoors.If i was really hunting all the meat i could take the 30 thousand i got wrapped up in this years hunting project and buy a shit load of double cheeseburgers and steaks.Maybe you just like to see a deer and shoot it and with these new regs you may have to watch alot of deer walk.


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## 706Z

Yeah,your right man.I guess the powers that be are gonna do what they do.Still I don't like it,there's a lot of WMA's that have the same 3 pt. on one side that I hunt during quota hunts like Hutton unit,Pine Log,Joe Bud,but I could always hunt other places.It will diffently take years for the ones with 5 in rule to catch up.When and if this becomes rule it will make 90% of the bucks in BW illeagal the first year,but that don't matter if you hunt places that have a 3pt on one side already in place.Oh well,24 days till bow season!


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## fla_scout

hyco said:


> there aint no way the state is going to allow doe tags in blackwater. i was at the meeting too. we stayed long after and talked with the guys putting in on. pretty much his exact words were; you have 1800 quotas for stillhunt and 800 for doghunt plus the guest permits. that could total 4400 hunters killing a doe. it aint going to happen. we did talk about a doe day on one of the blackpowder days. sure more folks would get a muzzleloader but not everyone would kill a deer on that day


Hyco not trying to bust your chops but there are actually only 400 permits available for the first phase of dog season and 400 for the second phase of dog season not 800 at one time. I know this is a cumulative total of 800 but only 400 per phase. I know your total was 4400 but the 800 is a little misleading.


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## TatSoul

706Z said:


> Yeah,your right man.I guess the powers that be are gonna do what they do.Still I don't like it,there's a lot of WMA's that have the same 3 pt. on one side that I hunt during quota hunts like Hutton unit,Pine Log,Joe Bud,but I could always hunt other places.It will diffently take years for the ones with 5 in rule to catch up.When and if this becomes rule it will make 90% of the bucks in BW illeagal the first year,but that don't matter if you hunt places that have a 3pt on one side already in place.Oh well,24 days till bow season!


i think the first 2 years might not be as good but after a couple years theres gonna be good opportunity to shoot some nice deer in blackwater.Bigger deer = more meat.


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## hyco

Scout, if they give out a doe tag with each quota then that's 800. There is No way they will let that many does get killed. I know it's only 400 each phase but that's 400 each times2. 800 no matter how you slice it. I have 5 dog hunt quotas in my family and a still hunt. That would give my family 6 doe tags. That would be sweet but I ain't holding my breath....tony


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## fla_scout

Ok I see what you were saying Tony. I thought you were saying 800 quotas. I don't believe they will ever give doe tags in BW. I personally thnk they should allot a certain number of doe tags like they used to do at Champion and give them out as a random draw. That would limit the number of does taken. If your guest killed a doe then that would fulfill that one doe tag you have as the recipient of the original tag.

They could then somewhat regulate the amount of does allowed in one season and help with what I believe is an over population of does. JMHO since I am not a biologist only a first hand observer of the amount of does that are in that WMA.


----------



## TatSoul

fla_scout said:


> Ok I see what you were saying Tony. I thought you were saying 800 quotas. I don't believe they will ever give doe tags in BW. I personally thnk they should allot a certain number of doe tags like they used to do at Champion and give them out as a random draw. That would limit the number of does taken. If your guest killed a doe then that would fulfill that one doe tag you have as the recipient of the original tag.
> 
> They could then somewhat regulate the amount of does allowed in one season and help with what I believe is an over population of does. JMHO since I am not a biologist only a first hand observer of the amount of does that are in that WMA.


They should issue 1 tag for every hundred acres..thats how fwc does it On private land.have a drawing and than give the tags out.


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## MikeG

During the FWC meeting I questioned why private clubs are issued a certain number of doe tags and the data and the jawbone of each one of those does is recorded and submitted to FWC, yet depridation permits have no monitoring of how many kills are conducted. The FWC biologist acted like I was nuts and said that FWC has nothing to do with the issuance or monitoring of that data. I though now how can that be when every doe tag I had was numbered by FWC. We also submit the data and the deer are aged by them. I'm all for the antler change but I do believe that BW hunters should get a few doe tags, even if it is a lottery. Years ago they did that. I'm not sure they exactly know what the deer herd is like up there.


----------



## TatSoul

hyco said:


> Scout, if they give out a doe tag with each quota then that's 800. There is No way they will let that many does get killed. I know it's only 400 each phase but that's 400 each times2. 800 no matter how you slice it. I have 5 dog hunt quotas in my family and a still hunt. That would give my family 6 doe tags. That would be sweet but I ain't holding my breath....tony


Depending on the total acreage but 1 doe per 100 to 150 acres is not that much


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## TatSoul

If blackwater is really 200000 acres like it says and they gave out 800 tags that would equate to one doe per 250 acres.would actually be a good thing.they would have a healthier deer herd overall and a better rut.


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## skullmount1988

TatSoul said:


> If blackwater is really 200000 acres like it says and they gave out 800 tags that would equate to one doe per 250 acres.would actually be a good thing.they would have a healthier deer herd overall and a better rut.


They need to keep all the does I like having something to shoot at during bow season. Id rather shoot does with my bow than shoot good bucks with my rifle any day.


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## Blake R.

I would like to see something resembling a rut. Our bucks have it easy... It's like being the only guy let in the bar on ladies night.


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## Biller48

nastukey said:


> No one has ever mentioned tropy management or trophy hunting accept the people who are complaining about change. Every state you mentioned has excellent habitat conditions for deer and therefore the population can handle a more intense doe harvest. Here in Florida we don't have the luxury of doing that and furthermore we would be without a deer population or at least a huntable population in a short time if we went that route.


That's funny, coastal NC (Camp Lejeune), Coastal SC (MCAS Beaufort), Savannah River WMA, GA look damn near identical to many habitats I have hunted in Florida. The average size of deer, fairly the same. The actual river bottom and hardwoods seem better throughout Florida, as to all states mentioned, in the specific areas are a majority pine flats. So I have a hard time seeing where the ability to take a doe or two off Fl Public land during gun or muzzleloader is an issue that would cause the state to loose a hunt able deer herd.


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## fairpoint

A doe tag lottery would be the ticket IMO.....Now at Blue springs they have been allowing either sex hunts for awhile now and I feel that they have killed too many out of there....For me ...deer sighting have gone done in the last 5 years Buck or Doe.......If I see any deer on a sit I feel
that I have had a good day....I don't have to kill to enjoy myself hunting...


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## don147

nastukey said:


> First of all you are being an idiot. I hunt on private land. I maintain supplemental feeding on the property 12 months...that's foodplots and/or pellets, corn, and soybean. As for the "posse" to which you refer that would be myself, my nephew, and sometimes my brother but most of all me....hardly a posse by any stretch of the imagination...just a few guys that enjoy the outdoors whether we are able to drag a deer out of the woods or simply enjoy our time in the field. Either way it is exciting.
> 
> Where did I whine about not being able to shoot doe? If anything I said I was against over harvest of doe because it can and will negatively affect the population.
> 
> Seems to me like you are the one "without a clue". Maybe some basics in wildlife management would help you. You should purchase deer management 101 by dr. Grant woods. He will show you how pretty much all that has spewed from your mouth is garbage in regards to wildlife management. Than perhaps you could follow up with some lessons in social skills...maybe dr. Phil has a book you can read to help you there.....your personal attacks are out of line.
> 
> On a final note, one of the basics of wildlife management is you manage the resource at the population level. Sure there are some variations in how some WMA'S are managed in relation to others but the majority of decisions are made at the population level and that is ultimately what the state is trying to do with these proposals.
> 
> One more thing, how much of your tax dollars have gone to help me with managing the habitat on my private land. That's right....not a red cent!!! This is why private land hunters and non-hunters and for that matter anti-hunters have a right to comment or question what goes on in our state's WMA's and other conservation areas. It is a publicly owned resource supported by public tax dollars not just license and deer permit purchases.
> 
> Have a good day!!


 I read some of your post's like you suggested - found that you feed your deer year round - only 3 people hunt your private property, so you can enjoy & watch your deer grow -- You really don't have anyone to bother you -- so no hunting pressure -- I'm glad you can afford to do that -- but most people can't and don't hunt that way.  
(I'm not trying to offend anyone) but I don't consider that hunting, you feed deer all season to keep them in your private area, use camera's to inventory your stock (that's really all they are) and find out what time your trophy buck is going to show so you can get that great shot on video. I've never done it, I just don't think it would mean as much to me as a buck I had to hunt for on Blackwater or Escambia River. 

Genetics & Diet determine horn size (you're a Graduate Student in Wildlife Science so I'll just take your word on that) -- but it's illegal to BAIT DEER on a WMA, I'm guessing it's probably illegal to plant food plots too, we can't plant high protein food plots or give them the mineral blocks they need to grow trophy size racks like you do -- so how long would it take to grow our bucks to your specifications? 

Lets just say this would put at least 90% of our deer off limits. (I think it would be higher) -- after several bad seasons as you predicted to improve the herd, what % increase of legal bucks would you expect? The 10% (maybe) we have now to what 20%, 30% ??? -- it would never equal the % of legal deer we have now -- so for thousands of hunters we just raised the odds of success against you. 

I may be an idiot like I'm sure you'll call me, I don't have a degree, but just consider this from an old ******* -- I don't really like it but I think it would be better than your idea. 

Instead of 3 pts to the side forever -- one season shoot spikes only -- next season 3 pts or better -- next season spikes only -- this should clean up the gene pool, leaving more of the older bucks with better genes to breed. 

Your way would reduce the % of bucks 3pts or better, leaving more of the younger bucks some with bad genes to breed --- the way all hunting clubs around here do it. (a$$backwards) sorry about that!!! Over the years I have seen a lot of older deer killed that would never be 3 pts or better. I have hunted St Regis-Champion before the hunting clubs on Escambia, St Regis Pasture, La Florista Perdido, Blackwater, Eglin, T R Miller, and other parts of Alabama. 

If you want to grow horns, I suggest you do a little research on T R Miller, Al. to find out how they did it. There always seemed to be more rack bucks there than anywhere in this part of Fla. -- just ask anyone that ever hunted there -- if I remember right, anything above the hairline was legal.


I'd really like to hear why you think you deserve TAX MONEY to help you manage the habitat on your PRIVATE LAND. 
Please explain that to me. 

Have a good day!! :notworthy:


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## 706Z

DANG.....Finally someone that really see's what is really going on!Couldn't have said it better myself.I've hunted all these places and more,you don't learn that s$%t in school,don147 I'm sure our trails have crossed and prolly looked at some of the same deer!I know like you know ,not so easy to kill deer with out the corn pile,thats all a lot of these so called "HUNTERS" know!They hunt in a "sheltered world"!I know some are gonna wish later "prolly for the next 5 years"they would have taken a stance against these horn restrictionsThis "wanna be fwc biologist"is pushing this for his own personal horn ego,must be lacking some where else!I'm thinking his private bait hole butts up to Ecofina CAT CREEK WMA.How convenient!He wants the entire panhandle to raise horn limits so he can bait the deer across the fence to kill a "BIG BUCK",How "PATHETIC"I'm sure with the character and name calling ,he wouldn't mind"STEALING DEER "from the mobility impaired hunters just across the road sence he baits year round and WMA's can't!!He should have just hunted his bait hole and STFU about horn restrictions and what go's on on WMA's!I'm sure theres more than a few that hunt WMA's and feel like we do.I mean....come on....If you can't have a quality hunting experience sitting on a corn pile on private land pullen deer off a WMA.....IT MUST SUCK TO BE YOU!!!!!


----------



## don147

706Z said:


> DANG.....Finally someone that really see's what is really going on!Couldn't have said it better myself.I've hunted all these places and more,you don't learn that s$%t in school,don147 I'm sure our trails have crossed and prolly looked at some of the same deer!I know like you know ,not so easy to kill deer with out the corn pile,thats all a lot of these so called "HUNTERS" know!They hunt in a "sheltered world"!I know some are gonna wish later "prolly for the next 5 years"they would have taken a stance against these horn restrictionsThis "wanna be fwc biologist"is pushing this for his own personal horn ego,must be lacking some where else!I'm thinking his private bait hole butts up to Ecofina CAT CREEK WMA.How convenient!He wants the entire panhandle to raise horn limits so he can bait the deer across the fence to kill a "BIG BUCK",How "PATHETIC"I'm sure with the character and name calling ,he wouldn't mind"STEALING DEER "from the mobility impaired hunters just across the road sence he baits year round and WMA's can't!!He should have just hunted his bait hole and STFU about horn restrictions and what go's on on WMA's!I'm sure theres more than a few that hunt WMA's and feel like we do.I mean....come on....If you can't have a quality hunting experience sitting on a corn pile on private land pullen deer off a WMA.....IT MUST SUCK TO BE YOU!!!!!



On another thread - he suggested that I should read some of his posts so I would understand where he was comming from. I guess I just don't have enough education to comprehend what he was trying to say. I have run across a lot of educated people thru the years -- very smart people -- I respect that -- they put in the time & money for a 1st class education. -- but I have met a few that were over educated -- what I mean is they have too much book smarts -- it just wiped out the little bit of common sense they may have had -- but thats just something that I have come to believe about a few people thru the years -- I don't have statistics or studies to back it up with -- so I guess its really just an opinion -- hope I didn't offend anyone -- if so -- sorry 
Have a nice day!! :notworthy:


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## 706Z

I gotta agree with ya,but he was smart enough to go get on the (TAG)technical assistance group to make recommendations to further his own agenda by raising the point restrictions and claiming making it better for all,ya right.I hope serveral hunters set up camp right across the fence when they find out where his feeders are,maybe then he'll start minding his on business after they cut the herd on him!!


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## gastonfish

Telum Pisces said:


> Because in BW and other WMA lands, going from a 5" minimum to 3 points on a side is going to make it hard to find a legal deer to shoot for quite a while. It will get there eventually I suppose. There are some nice deer in BW and other WMAs. But they are hard to find and hunt.
> 
> And not everyone's idea of a "quality" deer is the same either. A quality deer to me is one in the back of the truck no matter the antler size. A doe is just as good as a buck to me. It's got red meat that I love to eat. Every deer is a trophy to me. I am thankful for every deer that I see and get to shoot. I've got two deer on my wall. I am proud of them. But I am more proud of the meat that they provided to feed my family.
> 
> I may one day get into the crowd that enjoys growing bigger deer. But I am not there yet at least. And when I do get there, I will definately remember the way I felt earlier in my hunting career and not judge others that want to shoot so called "smaller" deer. Everyone enjoys hunting in different ways and enjoys shooting different size deer as well.
> 
> Not going to please everyone. But I think other than the way does are handled in NWFL, I like the way it is right now as far as deer regs go.
> 
> Great topic of discussion here. Always a lively one because there's a wide range of thoughts on the matter.


Sorry but this is far from true. I have hunted WMA's for over 25 years and haven't shot a spike in over 15 years in one. And have killed plenty of mature bucks. There are plenty! You just need to become a better hunter. I don't have a problem with people shooting a spike just don't shoot everyone you see.


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## nastukey

don147, the reference to "being an idiot" was directed to 706Z and his personal attacks toward me. Not you. However, you guys can say what you want about me...attack me...whatever. I am sure you both are probably alot better people than your personal attacks on me would indicate. I would imagine you both also are little bit over confident sitting there behind your keyboard. People often say things at there computer that they would not be man enough to say to a man in his face. It's almost like a drug or alcohol to some people. But that's okay....I know it probably makes both of you feel like more of a man when you talk all this nonsense from the safe confines of your parent's basement. I just wanted to say one thing.....you guys (especially 706Z) really have absolutely no clue about me...where I hunt....and except what I have mentioned on here exactly how I manage our private property. By the way, it's completely surrounded by other private property.....not a WMA. The nearest WMA is about 10 miles away. I'm not "stealing" deer as one of you put it from the mobility impaired. That's a ridiculous accusation. I do not hunt over a corn pile as one of you suggested nor do I "trophy" manage our property. Do you even understand the concept of "trophy management"? I highly doubt it. Another thing, I have not said any thing in any of my previous posts that is so complex that even the most simple-minded person like yourself could not follow and understand. Simply put...I do not harvest every deer that I see. Furthermore, I believe that there are many true sportsmen and woman on this forum that feel the same way as I do and they want the quality of deer hunting experience to improve all across the state of Florida. So get on board or get out of the way......the train is moving!!!


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## bcbz71

I'm probably a fool for entering this discussion, but there is so much bad information in just one post that it needs to be countered with facts so other readers realize why the FWC is doing this.

If you read nothing else of my post, read this article published by Steve Shea when he was the biologist at Tyndall AFB. He went on to work for St Joe Timber and now he is working for the state (I hear). He was incredibly diligent in studying whitetails in the Panhandle as much of what you see on TV (like shoot every doe you see) doesn't apply here. Why? Our soil sucks!

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/090698/spo_1c22spik.html



don147 said:


> (I'm not trying to offend anyone) but I don't consider that hunting, you feed deer all season to keep them in your private area, use camera's to inventory your stock (that's really all they are) and find out what time your trophy buck is going to show so you can get that great shot on video. I've never done it, I just don't think it would mean as much to me as a buck I had to hunt for on Blackwater or Escambia River.


Until you have done it, you might want to rethink your position as killing any free range mature buck is a challenge. Deer are wild animals and do what they want, when they want. You may be able to pattern a buck in the Midwest, but it's near impossible in Florida. The bucks you have in velvet will most likely be different from the bucks on your property in January/February. We have captured many bucks on cam in Aug/Sep and have never seen them during the season. Providing food plots and corn feeders doesn't guarantee succes with a mature buck....in fact, they tend to only visit green fields at night and I rarely get a mature buck pic at a feeder. Spikes and forks are a different story, as I would say they are probably some of the dumbest deer in the population and are quite easy to kill on public or private land...in many cases easier than a doe. I think fawns are smarter. 

Bucks have a home range about 1sq mile, so if your land doesn't include all of his home range, then he is not in your "stock". Their core area is smaller...typically 200 acres or less, so if that is part of your lease, you can consider him "your" buck until the rut, in which case, he can roam up to a 5 miles in one day (or really, one night). Add some hunting pressure and he may never move during the day. My point? You can't stock pile bucks on your property without a fence.



don147 said:


> Genetics & Diet determine horn size.


This is 66% true as *AGE* is the most important factor for horn size. A buck reaches it's potential around 5.5 y/o, but not many get there because they get shot when they are young and dumb. This year's spike is next year's fork and the third year's 8pt in much of the Gulf Coast. I've watched bucks transition through these phases and usually they end up going nocturnal by 4.5, but gotta let 'em walk to see their antler potential. It's simple biology. There are millions of dollars poured into this research by all the states and private individuals. Check out www.qdma.com as it's a great resource for learning about whitetails. It's not anecdotal data like you find on this forum....it's facts.

Genetics are important though as my two "trophy" bucks in the FL Buck Registry for Bay County were both taken off public land where there is very little to eat except acorns and whatever else grows in sand....my private land buck last year ate good but only scored 88. 



don147 said:


> but it's illegal to BAIT DEER on a WMA, I'm guessing it's probably illegal to plant food plots too, we can't plant high protein food plots or give them the mineral blocks they need to grow trophy size racks like you do -- so how long would it take to grow our bucks to your specifications?


I've seen some very nice bucks posted on here from BW, so you don't need to plot/corn for the bucks there to have respectable racks. :thumbup: The nice ones I have seen posted were not young deer...they were able to make to 4.5 and 5.5 y/o and reach their antler potential. So to answer your question: 5 hunting seasons from birth will grow any buck to as big as he will most likely get...antler wise. Besides, a BW spike is about a 90# deer and at best yielding 25# of meat...let 'em grow and even if you don't care about antlers, you will get more venison. Plus, the FWC took lots of comments from hunters and found a greater percentage of hunters wanted bigger antlers than to shoot spikes. Sometimes it's hard to be on the losing side of the argument...I'm still trying to get over the last election.



don147 said:


> Instead of 3 pts to the side forever -- one season shoot spikes only -- next season 3 pts or better -- next season spikes only -- this should clean up the gene pool, leaving more of the older bucks with better genes to breed.


Is this a serious deer management suggestion? All you will do is remove one year's worth of pipeline bucks; thus creating a void in age structure down the road. The goal is a balanced age structure: You want a bunch of 1.5s, which gives you a few less 2.5s, which gives you a few less 3.5s, etc... 
Clean up the gene pool?  That notion is at least 20 years out of date. You cannot "clean up the gene pool" of free ranging bucks. It's impossible. Most Panhandle bucks are going to be spikes their first year...read Steve Shea's article. Also, Google "culling bucks" and you will find reams of data countering your position.



don147 said:


> Your way would reduce the % of bucks 3pts or better, leaving more of the younger bucks some with bad genes to breed --- the way all hunting clubs around here do it. (a$$backwards) sorry about that!!! Over the years I have seen a lot of older deer killed that would never be 3 pts or better. I have hunted St Regis-Champion before the hunting clubs on Escambia, St Regis Pasture, La Florista Perdido, Blackwater, Eglin, T R Miller, and other parts of Alabama.


All of this is simply untrue. You CANNOT affect the gene pool in free ranging (non fenced deer). A simple way to understand this is to recognize 50% of any buck's antler genetics come from the doe...just like you got some of your genetics from your mom. How will you know which doe to kill that has the "bad antler" gene? I don't know where all these bucks that you have seen dead that were "old" forked horned bucks, but I have poor genetics (even in my older bucks) and poor food (except for our 9 acres of plots) and we never see "old" bucks that are not at least 3pts on one side....that is only a dang fork with a brow tine. :no: The only way to tell the true age of a deer is to pull it's jaw bone, so I would have to see all those jaw bones and forked antlers of "old" bucks to believe it.

This was not an attempt to rub anyone's nose in their mis-statements or criticize how they hunt. If it's legal, take it if it makes you happy. But if you really want to understand the science of whitetail biology, there is lots of research out there. These new GPS collar studies are fascinating and every year we learn more about bucks and why they do what they do.

Good luck this season to all. I think in 5 years we will be glad these changes were enacted and the FL deer herd will be even stronger!


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