# Few Speargun Facts



## Clay-Doh

Well, I have done a few things to my Riffe, and thought I would share em.

OK,first thing I did to my gun that I love.........Riding Rig. JoshH had posted a youtube video a while back about this, and I finally got around to doing it. Not everybody may like this idea, butfor me, I have about doubled the amount of fish I shoot, just because this thing makes it so easy to get the fish on the stringer, and reload, that I take a lot more shots. 

Also, you never have to worry about losing your gun if a monster fish starts yanking you to the bottom, or worse, to the surface to fast. Or if a 7 foot bullshark grabs your snapper that you just shot and your shaft along with it, and starts dragging you all over the place, you dont have to be an idiot and hold because you dont want to lose your gun, instead all you risk losing is a shaft. In case you havent seen the helmet cam video of that happening to me...heres the you tube link.... (click on "watch in high quality" below the screen when it opens)






OK, heres the pics of the riding rig set up...










And heres a close up of the connection...










I think it was the Hell Divers who invented this, for spearfishing in 3000 feet of water on the oil rigs. They didnt want to risk losing there gun if a monster gave em more fight than they had in em, plus, they could use the rope for leverage by using one of the cross members of the rig as a "pulley so to speak.

Basically, were your shock cord connects to your gun, the lil yellow loop at the top that is usually tied on or looped thru, you undo it, and just hook it on up there. A simple little stainless D-ring like in the picture, and a length of rope long enough to reach back so you can hold it in your left hand, and your done! 

The other important part of it is to have a way to clip the gun to you after you shoot. When you shoot this, the shaft leaves the gun, and the shock cord comes right off the "hook" at the end of your gun that it was simply looped onto, and your shaft is now completely disingaged from your gun. I personally have the rope and clip at the butt end of my gun long enough to keep it constantly clipped to a shoulder D_ring on my BC, and still have my gun-arm outstretched and be able to swing my gun around to aim. That way, as soon as I shoot, I can instantly let go of my gun with my right hand, let it float up above my head, and use both hands to pull in my fish!

Why do I like this? Several reasons. NO MORE LINES TANGLED IN YOUR BANDS OR AROUND THE END OF YOUR GUN! Your gun is right above your right shoulder, out of the way! Its great! Also, you have a rope and line to pull your fish in, instead of an akward gun gettin yanked around by the shockcord at the end.

Also, if you really got a monster on, (or a shark), and you are getting dragged to the bottom of the Oriskany, or up to the surface, and you just cannot get the fish under control, you will not have to quickly deside in your head if you are willing to risk your life to save your gun. The only thing you will lose if all hell breaks lose and its beyond you to salvage the situation, is a shaft.

ALso, as in DK's story bout his sweet cobia on the "O", had he had a rig like this, he could wrapped that rope around a railing, tower, or something to give him leverage, an slow that fish down.

Also, you just shot a fish, your pulling it in, and in comes a shark for your fish. Normally you got a hand full of line, and if you do it like most people, your gun is either floating up above you 10 feet, or you are still holding the gun and havent grabbed the line yet, so your gun is worthless to use as a weapon to jab with, because the end of it is gertting yanked all over by theat sweet fish you got on. But with this, your gun is free and clear, with the handle straight abouve your right shoulder to reach up and bring down to jab a cuda or shark, without a fish yanking your gun in different directions.

But I still gotta say, the absolute best reason I love it, is because NO MORE TANGLED UP LINE IN YOUR BANDS AND AROUND THE END OF YOUR GUN!! Sweeeeeet.

OK, next thing...It's time for me to buy new bands, its been bout 6 months, and I did a little math...:withstupid

Follow me here...you will definately feel like you slept at a holiday inn. 

standard 9/16th bands that nmost guns, even Riffes come stock with, are 14.2875 mm thick. 

5/8th bands, wich I always recomend people to upgrade too, are 15.875 mm thick

3/4 inch bands, wich are just plain STUPID are 19.05 mm thick.

SO, PieR sqaured to figure out the actual amount of rubber you are pulling in square mm is

Three 9/16" bands = 480.72 mm2

Three 5/8" bands = 593.49 mm2

THATS OVER 23% MORE POWER. Pretty sweet. So now I'm thinkin..what about 3/4" bands???

dig this here.........

Two 3/4" bands = 569.76 mm2 !!!!!

Almost the same exact power out of only TWO 3/4 inch bands as compared to THREE 5/8th! AND....that is still almost 19% more power STILL than the three stock 9/16th"!

So...I habve ordered two 3/4" bands, and if I don't blowone of mycohones out to the size of a grapfruit while loading the gun, then I will be happy. Most fish can be takem with only _one band, _and for longer shots, or a bigger fish, I can load just one more band, and basically have almost the same power I have now with my already upgraded bands!! I'll keep you posted....and if one of the jewels does blow up like a grapefruit...I promise NOT to post pictures of the atrocity.

OK...another thing.....if your losing fish off your tip...go to MBT and buy one of the Spearfishing Speciaties tips....its almost an entire extra 1 inch wide wingspan when it opens up...and has been 100% better! It really makes a difference. 

And speakin of tips...heres a tip for your tip...feel free to take them bad boys to a bench grinder once in a while. Some of you guys have such dull and bent over blunt, mangled tips, I wonder if your tryin to knock the fish out with the impact instead of penetrate it! And you guys know who you are! :moon I personally resharpen mine every time before I go diving.

Next thing..and these are for sale...is an addition of a kill spike. 

I have got to say this is awsome. IT serves several great purposes.

1. When you got the fish close in, and he is goin apeshit on you, and trying to fin you, or you just need to get him pinned againts something to get him on a stringer, instead of reachin down for your knife, and risking the finning, you can just jam him in the head with this, pin him againts something, and make much easier work out of him!

2. If you have a fish on, a lot here have had sharks decide to come in THEN, and all you have to jab em with is the blunt wooden end of your gun. Which usually doesnt do that effective of a job (at least for me it hasnt), and they keep comming back for more, However, a jab with something sharp usually does the trick! And when your gun is empty, the kill spike is perfect for convincing them to permanantly leave! (Cudas too).

3. If it gets ever gets REALLY crazy with an agressive shark, yet your gun is empty from just having shot a fish, the BECO pwerheads will slip right onto a kill spike, and you can ram it into the shark to permanantly ruin his day!

4. You have just shot a fish, pull him in, and then there in the sand below you is a doormat flounder, or a big dinner size plate trigger comes up to check out your struggling fish, but your gun is empty...:doh Haa haa..not with the kill spike its not! You can still nab that second fish who gets too close and is just too dumb to know better.

5. Your dive buddy is being a total ass, and shootin every fish that you are takin aim at, over your shoulder, between your legs..ect. With the kill spike...a quick jab into his BC bladder...and by the time he realizes something is wrong, and ditches some weight and gets his bouyancy under control...you can have 3 fish on the stringer!! :moon

*Ok...heres the pics. They are 100% stainless steel,TIG welded. $35 normal, or $40 highly polished to a mirror finnish on my buffing wheel. Includes 3 stainless steel screws, ready to mount.*














































And heres with a BECO .223 powerhead slipped onto it if your gun is empty and you cant put the powerhead over the tip of your spear.










I dont shoot awhole lot of fish, or big trophy fishwhen I go diving, but these things have helped me get the ones I have got!

I got one more trick up my sleeve for the ol Riffe that I havent got around too. Ill post pics when I do. Will make a Riffe as easy and fast to reload as a Biller or JBL, or no need to restring at all!

Anybody who wants a Kill Spike same as in the pic let me know!


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## need2fish

Wow. Thanks for all that info/insight - that's a mouthful.


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## craasch210

Clay I love all of the additions, except for the spearfishing speacialties tips. I was a big fan of them also because of the large wings. The only problem is that they tend to break at the point where the wings are mounted to the head. I have broken two of them now on large fish. Never had that happen before, but apparently its pretty common with these tips. I now use the slip tip, which has worked out better for me.


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## Stressless

Great stuff Clay. \\ Here's the rigging of the gun...



http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?sw...se_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=en



Going to get Nitrox cert as soon as I get back from Sandland and start getting out again. Good Stuff!



:mmmbeer

Stressless


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## Clay-Doh

Here ya go Bob...the youtube video showing how to rig one...Personally I feel he overcomplicated it a bit.






Chris, I have never had the tip itself of ANY tip break...yet. Seems my point of fAILURE ENDS UP BEING THE SHAFT AT THE THREADS. OOps..caps.


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## TONER

Thanks for the great ideas please give us an update on the 3/4 bands and if they work where to get them Thanks Chad


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## Clay-Doh

I will, they should be in any day now. If they arent to difficult to load, it will be great having the same power with only 2 bands!


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## lastcast

Clay-Doh, I have a stupid question. I watched your video of the shark and was wondering if they make a blunt tip shaft, or something that you might use to deter the shark from taking your fish ?



Skip


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## bmoore

*Ha you put a bayonet on your gun!*

Now that I do like........


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## Clay-Doh

Used it first time a week and a half ago out with Crash...Loved it man! the big black goin nuts in a pile of rubble, I didnt have to try and reach in there and get finned to grab him, just pinned him againts the concrete with my "bayonet" as you say!

Then the nice size AJ, the tip only made it HALF way thru his fat monster head...even with all 3 bands cocked on the "monster hurniater super macho 3500" speargun....but with the kill spike? BAM! Before I woulda even had time to pull out my knife, and try to grab him and risk him shakin the shaft lose...I just pinned him againts the wheelhouse with the spiek, and jammed the stringer thru his eyes before I even took the shaft or kill spike out!










Worked like a charm!!!

If we dive togetehr sunday....you might get a kick outta it! Crassh said if I can get one made by then, he wants it.


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## IanR

Awesome idea! I took a look at the prototype at mbt a few weeks ago.



Was wondering, does the spike interfere with the bands at all? Poke them or tangle them at all?



Thinking how it could fit on a biller with the plastic tip...



Where did you get the stainless steal? I might try and put one together...


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## Bigg J

Hey Clay good tips man. I have a riding rig on one of my guns, it definately has its advantages. I did notice one thing though, in the pics it looked like you had tied a<U>goober</U> knot to your quick link and your snap.I thinkweshould have a little session on how to do and eye splice......:moon


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## Clay-Doh

Hey lastcast...Not sure I understood the question you asked? Bout detering the sharks? when the shaft is still in the gun, before you have shot....a good jab with that sharp tip sends the sharks on...but when the gun is empty, and just a wooden stick so to speak, they seem to keep comming back.

Hey over....I know...I dont know how to do that, :dohbut sniper spirit is gonna hook me up this weekend and show me how

Hey Ian...I got the stainless from somebody else. The prob is welding it, and I got a buddy to tig weld it for me.


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## Pierce07

> *IanR (11/20/2008)*Awesome idea! I took a look at the prototype at mbt a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Was wondering, does the spike interfere with the bands at all? Poke them or tangle them at all?
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking how it could fit on a biller with the plastic tip...
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get the stainless steal? I might try and put one together...




Just get some washers and longer screws and have the washers in there like shims


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## flyingfishr

Hey Clay, I like what you've done with the Riffe. Can you mount that kill spike on a biller with the plastic muzzle? I'd be interested in something like that. Also, haven't been around much recently so I've been out of the loop, NICE fish in those last few pics. Now that I'm back, hopefully we can get back out there a bit. Take it easy, great tips.


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## Clay-Doh

Dang Josh!! I ben wondering were you been man? Hows Neva too? You ready to get out and slay em? I heard rumor the grouper are getting stupid!!

Hey man..yes, you can put em on a biller, but I would have to make the plate smaller, or bend/curve it, since the biller has a skinnier stock than a Riffe. You would want to mount it rear of the bands. like I did.

By the way...only reason I only got 3 fish on that last trip was cuz we had no less than a total of 5 sharks during the dives! 2 on one dive, and 3 on another. Had the powerhead ready, and safety pin pulled....bastards stayed just oughta range.

But the trip before that with DK...check it out..










8 fish man! I am loving that riding rig!!!:letsdrink:letsdrink:letsdrink

Makes the reload so easy, and them black snapper in the background, 2 of em were dang nice size! I dont think Ive ever shot 8 fish while scuba, only freediving.


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## UnderWater Angler

Good post my friend. I am really digging that riding rig, I have something that I rigged up myself but am liking this a little better. I may have to get with you on it as I still have a few questions.


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## cape horn 24

Pretty neat rig, like the idea of the shaft being independent of gun, However; the kill spear is with out a doubt the coolest idea I have seen in a long time. It can be of so many uses as you have stated and is ready at a moments notice.

I know what I will be making at work at my first opportunity!!

BA


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## Clay-Doh

UPDATE ON 3/4" BANDS.

Well, they cam in and I instaled em tuesday night before the elusive 150 or more pound record breaking"Ghost" cobia hunt. So I have used them wednesday and friday diving.

I gotta say, I love em!

Heres pics of em isntalled.










They are fat! They look like there about as thick as a garden hose! That is a 5/8th band next to em for comaprison. If you have already been using the 5/8th, these really arent that big of a jump. If you have only been using sdtock 9/16th, you may want to try 5/8th first.

I can load em no problem. It is great, cuz one band is enough for almost all fish within decent range. And I only gotta put on one more for bigger or farther fish!You see how just 2 of em fill the whole slot in the Riffe.

So there you have it! Jery and Paul and Brandon were down when I was reloadin em quick as heck and nailin them triggers one after another. Love em!


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## BADBOY69

Clay has his Riffe rigged right! Alot of R&D went into that setup and I gotta sayI was impressed! He was re-loading faster than the shooters with two bands on the SS guns! He is also actually designing a semi-enclosed track for the Riffe, I am looking forward to that!


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## CootCommander

Clay, Any chance you still have the pics from your original post? I want to rig a Riffe this way and I think your illustration would help greatly.


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## flappininthebreeze

Clay,
Great write up. I can't see the pictures. Videos are fine, but the pics are X'd out. Can you re-post the pics?


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## no woryz

Great post Clay, very informative to us all... With the riding rig, kill spike, big bands and powerhead mounted on the gun is there any room left to mount a clock?


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## Clay-Doh

Here's the link to a post on spearboard.com with pictures.

http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=126295

On page 2 starts the details, good pics are on page 3.

If you can't see the pics let me know and I'll repost em. Just don't have time right now.

If you spear, you oughtta sign on there anyways. Some good knowledge on there.


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## coolbluestreak

Would you recomend the setup for a noob? I've never spearfished before but, I am planning on going Saturday, I can see how your rig could be a real benefit, but maybe it's too much going on for a first timer?


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## Clay-Doh

Hey Cool. the riding rig and kill spike I would definately recomend for someone new. Kill spike is way easier to use then trying to hold the fish, not get wrapped in the line, and reach down and pull your knife. You got more leverage this way, and more reach, without having to manage another "item" (knife).

I got another spearfishing vid in the works, one more day out diving I'll have enough footage to finsih it. Got about a dozen fish maikin the sacrifice so far.

As far as the riding rig, I can't think of one good reason to have your line attached to your gun. Not one. But plenty of bad reasons.
CONS:
1.If something goes wrong, fish is too big for you too handle, shark grabs your fish and shaft (have video of that happening to me), you lose your gun too.

2.If your pulling your fish in by the line and your gun is floating up above you, and then the fish takes a run and line slips through your hand, you get popped in the head with your gun.

3. you aren't able to use your gun (or a kill spike mounted on it) for anything because it is basically an underwater fishing pole now because your line is attached to it and the fish is controlling your gun.

4. If something goes wrong, either with you, another diver, or whatever, your stuck dealing with that fish unless you want to lose your gun. You can't just clip the rope around a part of the wreck and then do what you need too.

That's just my opinion. The only extra "going on" so to speak with a riding rig is you have to remember to hold it and not let go of it. Which if your new is not hard. But if you are always used to holding your gun after you pull the trigger, you may just be prone to first time out drop the rope and hold your gun. (I did...funny as hell). But being new you don't have that instinct yet. Either way you do it, you gotta hold something, either your gun or the rope loop. To me the rope is a lot easier.

Even though there is no good reason anybody can come up with to have the line attached to the gun, I still get teased about it. When I first made a kill spike about 4 years ago and mounted on my gun some of the guys at MBT gave me hell and made fun of it and said it was ridicoulous.

Until Spearfishing specialties designed one for there gun.:whistling: Now there sold in the store, and some of the guys have em and talk about how great they are. Go figure.

I guess riding rigs will still be ridiculous and just for silly yankees like me who don't know what there doin.

Until Riffe or JBL start manufacturing them, and offer them as a $100 option on your new gun. ha ha.:thumbup:


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## captken

*I got in way too late to see the pics.*

Why not carry a gaff? When a fish gets way back in a hole, a gaff will get a lot of them. About a million years ago, I gaffed a bunch of big bugs too.

Cool video Clay. I noticed the brown stuff coming out of the leg of your wetsuit.


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## MillerTime

I am a little confused on the way the rig is set up. Do you just attach a length of rope to the end of your normal line attached to the shaft? Also if that is the case then with your riffe (I have a C2X) you still have to wrap the line like you normally would since that is what holds the shaft onto the gun?


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## DropB

clay, im seriously thinking about swapping over to the rider rig. however i got a question.
how does the overlapping cord (keeping the spear in place) keep its tension while your re loading. in other words, you send the spear back home, slide the cord over the top back to the trigger mechanism, back to the top loop on the under side and finally back home to the rope to hang onto. 
BUT.....then you need 2 hands to load the bands..... is there a slack issue that the cord up top comes loose ?

i know old thread...... but damn good info.... riffe 3XS by the way....


thanks brother!


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## CootCommander

MillerTime said:


> I am a little confused on the way the rig is set up. Do you just attach a length of rope to the end of your normal line attached to the shaft? Also if that is the case then with your riffe (I have a C2X) you still have to wrap the line like you normally would since that is what holds the shaft onto the gun?


The wrap ends with attaching the bungee loop to the front line loop instead of ending at the trigger line release.




DropB said:


> clay, im seriously thinking about swapping over to the rider rig. however i got a question.
> how does the overlapping cord (keeping the spear in place) keep its tension while your re loading. in other words, you send the spear back home, slide the cord over the top back to the trigger mechanism, back to the top loop on the under side and finally back home to the rope to hang onto.
> BUT.....then you need 2 hands to load the bands..... is there a slack issue that the cord up top comes loose ?
> 
> i know old thread...... but damn good info.... riffe 3XS by the way....
> 
> 
> thanks brother!


 
The line is the same length so there is the same amount of tension. You do not have to hold on to the riding rig to keep tension on the line. If you have a heavy clip on the end and you point your gun staight down and let the riding rig hang free it can come loose, but I dont find myself doing that very often.



Here are a couple pics for illustration. Dont mind the munchkin prints on the door or the wheel bearing grease on my fingers lol


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## CootCommander

Clay-Doh said:


> The only extra "going on" so to speak with a riding rig is you have to remember to hold it and not let go of it. Which if your new is not hard. But if you are always used to holding your gun after you pull the trigger, you may just be prone to first time out drop the rope and hold your gun. (I did...funny as hell).


 

Been there done that...First time I was actually happy I missed lol


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## DropB

evilsrt said:


> The wrap ends with attaching the bungee loop to the front line loop instead of ending at the trigger line release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The line is the same length so there is the same amount of tension. You do not have to hold on to the riding rig to keep tension on the line. If you have a heavy clip on the end and you point your gun staight down and let the riding rig hang free it can come loose, but I dont find myself doing that very often.
> 
> Here are a couple pics for illustration. Dont mind the munchkin prints on the door or the wheel bearing grease on my fingers lol




Thanks mane! Just like that it all makes sense! might give it a shot on Sunday.:thumbsup:...........


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## WhackUmStackUm

Hey Clay. You've made a believer out of me. I'm going to setup a riding rig and kill spike. Losing one Riffe CX2 and almost losing another this year also helped convince me. :yes:

I see some of the Hell Divers use stainless steel cable. Do you think is a good idea or a bad one? I'm trying to decide which way to go myself.

Thanks,
Bryan


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## CootCommander

WhackUmStackUm said:


> Hey Clay. You've made a believer out of me. I'm going to setup a riding rig and kill spike. Losing one Riffe CX2 and almost losing another this year also helped convince me. :yes:
> 
> I see some of the Hell Divers use stainless steel cable. Do you think is a good idea or a bad one? I'm trying to decide which way to go myself.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bryan


I used the stock rigging on my riffe and it does fine. I rigged up a cable rig for my buddy and he shot a pretty good size AJ with no problem. I think I'm going to keep the stock rigging, shaft and tip for snapper and the like and put together a cable setup on a shaft with a break away tip for the bigger boys after seeing the shaft a good size AJ turned into a coat hanger while we were at the Tenneco. It's pretty easy to set up with the cable as long as you have a swagging tool and make sure you use two ferrules per connection and heat shrink and coat the frayed ends to keep them from scratching up your gun and cutting your bands


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## markhsaltz

Riding rigs are great.Been using em for 30 years. I'm amazed at how many people 1) use mono 2) tie the guns to themselves. Great video Clay and what took you soo long to switch?


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## Clay-Doh

Sorry I haven't been on here in a while. I'll throw my speargun i my truck and will be at Gilligans Tiki Bar behind Hampton Inn on P-Cola Beach tonight as usual for free oysters around 6:30 if anybody wants to take a look at it, and shoot the crap and tell spearfishin storys (lies!)


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## Clay-Doh

Wakum, my tuna gun Riffe "W" model, the biggest they make with 4 bands and 72" long 3/8" thick shaft with breakaway float line, has stainless. I tried it on a regular gun, and I am againts it.

1. If you still end up getting wrapped, a lot harder to cut (keep those diving shears on you handy).

2. It gets permanant kinks in it.

3. It frays when when it rubs hard on something and gives you "splinters".

I don't use mono. I use dynema or spectra, not sure which it is, the same thing that are used for band wishbones for finned tab. The stuff I use is incredible! I tried kevlar, didn't like it. This stuff doesn't have memory, and get kinks, and mine has been rubbed tight againts wrecks plenty, and I can't believe there are no abrasions. Mono would have already shredded what mine has been through.


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## coolbluestreak

Bump for a good read.


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## Clay-Doh

Wow this is an old one Jeremy!

The shooting line I have been using for 3 years now is 550lb. 1.9mm Spetra/Dynema. I love this stuff. I've used stainless cable, mono, the standard stuff JBL and Biller has on there guns, and Kevlar. This stuff never dies. Abrasion resistance is awesome, and it doesn't kink like mono.

Here's some pics of the close ups of the terminal connections on the riding rig. I like the little stainless steel threaded chainlink for the connection so that I can undo it the shaft and line from the rope if the shaft goes all the way thru the fish and I can't get it back through and just want to pull the line through the fish.

And what Coot said about a heavy clip on the loop, I used to have one of the big brass clips on the hand loop of the riding rig, but found it was overkill, and like he said, the weight of it could pull hard enough and I did have a couple times it pulled the loop end of the bungee off the "line anchor". I know use one of those aluminum caribiner clips which is plenty of strength for if you loop your rope around something with a fish on to clip it to itself.

Here's some pics.
1st is overall gun with lines stowed for on the boat or whatever. Riding rig loop around the handle, and other end on my kill spike (can go over your spear shaft too if you don't have a kill spike.)









2nd and third are close ups of how I attach my riding rig to the shock cord, and how the shock cord attaches to the line anchor on your gun.
















4th picture is the gun in "shooting mode. The bottom rope and clip I attach to the top right D-ring on my bc, and the loop is what I hold in my left hand. Notice the light aluminum caribiner clip on the riding rig loop. Great for wrapping the rope around part of the wreck or a railing and clipping it to itself and making sure your fish and going to get away. Also great for clipping to an anchor line if your on your safety stop or on an accent from a deep dive over "open water" and a big cobia or AJ begs to get shot but you don't want to be in the middle of the water column dragged any direction. 









Last pic is overall gun with it ready to go.


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