# Home defense 45ACP ? And test results



## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

*I have a question that I hope a LEO can answer if not one of the many other experts on here. I shot a motorcycle helmet with two Steel case PXI ( I think I'm not looking at the box but the expensive ones at Walmart in the black box with silver writing) And as you can see from the pic's did not perform the way I thought they should expansion wise. I can hardly tell the difference between the entry and exit holes. I would think and hope for more expansion then this. Any explanation would be appreciated. The pic's are in order, first entry and exit from first shot then the second in and out at bottom. As you can see I would think even if bone was hit this projectile would stay intact for the most part. I dug one out of a 14" cypress stump that was almost re-loadable ( Not really but you get what I'm saying) Not mushroomed like I thought it should be. I get much more expansion with cheap ammo.*


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

The answer is very simple. Don't use those bullets for self defense. Try some totally different ammo.

That being said. Millions of folks have been killed with FMJ ammo... and thousands with 45ACP ball. A torso shot with a large caliber pistol is usually gonna end up with the "shootee" dead. And almost certainly incapacitated. 

And even "good" bullets can perform poorly under some circumstances. Some HPs will "clog" with bits of clothing and not expand at all. Years ago we shot up a class II vest with a bunch of different bullets from 9mm to 45. None of the 9MMs expanded well at all. The only 45s that did were the Speer 200gr HPs. We pulled bits of cotton (the overly) out of all of them. A couple years later I shot a freshly killed hog with the same bullets.... ALL of them opened up. The 124gr Hornady 9MMs did the best in 9MM and again the Speer 200gr did the best with the 45 with a perfect mushroom.

Shooting a piece of plastic/fiberglass as a test isn't a very good test in my opinion. The bark of the tree could have plugged the HP on the other test...neither item is anywhere close to the soft tissue of a animal or human.


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## timc (Oct 19, 2009)

I may be wrong, but hollowpoints are designed to expand upon impact with "soft" targets, i.e. skin, tissue, etc.
As stated above, I am sure your bullet got clogged up with plastic, fiberglass, etc. 
This site has some good tests on bullet penetration and expansion.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/


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## rob883 (Oct 3, 2007)

it is a very strange thing that takes place with bullets upon impact.People die from one shot from a 22 while others are shot many times with a 45 and still beat the hell out of the cop that fired the rounds into him.That being said shot placement is best a miss with a 44 mag is not as good as a hit from a 22 short.A hollowpoint bullet is designed for expansion upon impact of material that will enable expansion.The motorcycle helmet is not that at all.I have shot many many different objects in my day and what you think should happen and what really does are different about 80% of the time.That being said such object being shot if it does not have the ability to fill the cavity in the hollowpoint then expansion will never occur.Something meaty somewhat liquid with hardness such as a piece of meat will often have the most realistic outcome of defending ones self against another.So just pull out yo dayummmmmmmmmmmm Glock and busta cap in dat [email protected]@@@ and keep it fo reel !!! Shoo dawg it works in da movies


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

kaferhaus said:


> The answer is very simple. Don't use those bullets for self defense. Try some totally different ammo.
> 
> That being said. Millions of folks have been killed with FMJ ammo... and thousands with 45ACP ball. A torso shot with a large caliber pistol is usually gonna end up with the "shootee" dead. And almost certainly incapacitated.
> 
> ...


*I may have wrote the title wrong but this was not a test of any kind, pure fun. The questions started after inspection of the victim ( The helmet in this case) I think we all thought it would have turned out with a bigger exit wound. I completely agree about the cavity being filled with plastic or fiberglass and basically becoming whole again.*

*We did do some test with .22 mag vs 17 HMR which were ridiculously in favor of the 17 HMR in all categories from penetration to total destruction of soup cans from the high speeds the projectile was moving.*

*I keep Glaser Safety Slugs* *in both my wife and my bed guns for this reason. I don't want to kill one of my kids trying to protect them. But man are they pricey, don't use them for practice.*


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## Crab Man (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't trust prefrags like glaser's and magsafe's. Then again I don't have kids in the house either.


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

Crab Man said:


> I don't trust prefrags like glaser's and magsafe's. Then again I don't have kids in the house either.


*There is nothing like 200gr's of lead but I have to use those with a kid in about every direction.*


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## chasin-tail (Oct 8, 2007)

I like to say that a 9mm or a 40cal "may" expand on contact, but a 45acp will never shrink!!


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## helo_hunter (Oct 2, 2007)

Always wanted to get 3 to 6 old phone books, 2-3inches thick each, soak them in water then shoot to see the pentration and expansion.

Ballistic gel would be fun too - just very messy to make.


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## GFish (Jan 2, 2012)

Has anyone shot a .45 GAP.


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

helo_hunter said:


> Always wanted to get 3 to 6 old phone books, 2-3inches thick each, soak them in water then shoot to see the penetration and expansion.
> 
> Ballistic gel would be fun too - just very messy to make.


*Thats exactly what we use to test penetration of different rounds. It's not the same as gell and doesn't let you know anything but which round goes deeper and expansion patterns. Just turn the pages and look at the page #. Cheap and easy.*


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## florabamaboy (Nov 18, 2011)

Hydro-Shocks any caliber! Just sayin......


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## mekell (Sep 27, 2007)

*Hydro's*

All three.... my truck,carry,and bedside all have handloaded hydro shocks. I hope I never have to use em.


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

would be willing to bet you would have better expansion on the exit hole if there was a head inside that helmet.

just sayin


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

I thought the purpose of a hollow point was to take advantage of the principle/physics of hydraulics ?
The cavity gets impacted/filled and thus pressurized as the bullet travels thru.
Liquids do not want to be compressed and thus the pressure blossoms out the bullet via expansion from the hydraulic pressure.
Entering plastic or fiberglass or wood just defeats that as those just fill the hollow until the material goes around the bullet.


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## barebones1 (Nov 24, 2009)

place mellon or pour jell in helmet try to duct tape helmet shut. and repeat test. Back of skull explodes because its a liquid filled solid. I believe the shock wave is translated thru the liquid to produce the large hole. The bullet of any design, didnot expand to 3 inches. Please let me know what happens

tom


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

you guys are so silly....


there's no such thing as knock down power

the first thing you all have to realize is lethality comes from depth of penetration not width.

your going to miss, so have as many rounds as is convenient to carry 

and nothing else should be considered for home defense before a 20 gauge shotgun is purchased, then a handgun...the governor

expansion is really not important


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

TURTLE said:


> *I have a question that I hope a LEO can answer *


Most LEOs are not exited or as knowledgeable about firearms as we are. They really just think of their gun as just another piece of equipment. Many of them poke fun at, "gun nuts" in LEO circles calling them, "gun ****" With that said they really don't know about wound ballistics.



timc said:


> I may be wrong, but hollowpoints are designed to expand upon impact with "soft" targets, i.e. skin, tissue, etc.
> As stated above, I am sure your bullet got clogged up with plastic, fiberglass, etc.
> This site has some good tests on bullet penetration and expansion.
> http://www.theboxotruth.com/


He's about the only DIY tester that I can trust when it comes to barrier shots and debunking many myths. He still only does waterjug testing which shows potential maximum expansion. In a more perfect world it would be nice for him to use ballistic gel which, but that stuff is expensive and very time consuming to make, calibrate and transport.



TURTLE said:


> *I may have wrote the title wrong but this was not a test of any kind, pure fun. The questions started after inspection of the victim ( The helmet in this case) I think we all thought it would have turned out with a bigger exit wound. I completely agree about the cavity being filled with plastic or fiberglass and basically becoming whole again.*
> 
> *We did do some test with .22 mag vs 17 HMR which were ridiculously in favor of the 17 HMR in all categories from penetration to total destruction of soup cans from the high speeds the projectile was moving.*
> 
> *I keep Glaser Safety Slugs* *in both my wife and my bed guns for this reason. I don't want to kill one of my kids trying to protect them. But man are they pricey, don't use them for practice.*


I think the helmet showed less than the stellar performance that you wanted due to it's elasticity. If you've ever shot a wood post the entrance and exit wholes are quite tiny due to its elasticity. I've seen photos of exit wounds in persons and the same effect is seen. The skin around the exist wound shrinks back to it's original size near the hole.

Fast and light bullets like the .22 mag or 5.7 is actually quite impressive in in my opinion. They don't rely on expansion, but rather fragmentation for effectiveness.

Please avoid using Glaser Safety Slugs. They do not work as intended and are actually more lethal after exiting drywall. Even if you don't miss and hit your attacker they only penetrate about 7-8 inches which is bellow the 12 inch minimum the FBI set. Anything that is sufficient for use as defensive ammunition is lethal through many barriers. The same can be said for frangibles and birdshot.



chasin-tail said:


> I like to say that a 9mm or a 40cal "may" expand on contact, but a 45acp will never shrink!!


Notice that they are all similar in the temporal and permanent wound cavity. Even the +P high velocity stuff is similar to every other load.











I prefer 9mm 147gr because it has favorable wound ballistics while maximizing the number of rounds in a magazine. If 9mm, .40 and .45 are all about the same in wound ballistics it doesn't make sense to carry something with less capacity and heavier recoil. If you really want to, "kick it up a notch" then go with 10mm.


GFish said:


> Has anyone shot a .45 GAP.


The .45GAP is a nice round is you want a bullet in .45 diameter, but have small hands to where the typical larger than normal double stack .45ACP handguns are too large. The round is merely a shorter .45ACP case that is loaded to a higher pressure.

I talked to a long time veteran (mid 1980s) of the FHP last Sunday and the transition to the .45GAP has been well received. Scores have went up and the armorers are pleased at the ease of maintenance compared the the Beretta 96Gs they had. Glock was really trying to field their .45GAP and basically gave FHP a super deal. The trooper and I concur that a G22 would have been better for compatibility with other agencies since nearly every LEO around here carries the G22, but he's not the one who gets a say in that.



helo_hunter said:


> Always wanted to get 3 to 6 old phone books, 2-3inches thick each, soak them in water then shoot to see the pentration and expansion.
> 
> Ballistic gel would be fun too - just very messy to make.


Phonebooks and waterjugs are a cheap way of doing it, but I would never hold them to the same standard of construct validity and reliability that the FBI uses for their standard. However, for the average Joe who doesn't want to go through the significant time and expense it makes a good, "field" test.



florabamaboy said:


> Hydro-Shocks any caliber! Just sayin......


Hydro-Shocks are an old outdated mid 70s design. They and Black Talons have been surpassed by newer designs. They have crummy expansion compared to modern bullet designs and are easily clogged by clothing. My favorites are Speer Gold Dot and the new Federal HST. Frankly, I never understand why people like to hold on to and carry older bullet designs. Do they believe that development stopped a while ago or that somehow lawyers made a certain bullet so evil that production had to cease?



johnsonbeachbum said:


> I thought the purpose of a hollow point was to take advantage of the principle/physics of hydraulics ?
> The cavity gets impacted/filled and thus pressurized as the bullet travels thru.
> Liquids do not want to be compressed and thus the pressure blossoms out the bullet via expansion from the hydraulic pressure.
> Entering plastic or fiberglass or wood just defeats that as those just fill the hollow until the material goes around the bullet.


The way to win in a gunfight is to shutdown the central nervous system. The expansion of hollow points maximizes the permanent wound cavity and thus increases our likelihood of damaging these vital areas.

My favorite concise page on wound ballistics can be found here.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

It includes ammo recommendations that have been tested and vetted by the pioneer and leading researcher in wound ballistics Dr. Garry Roberts.

Flame suit on.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

Nice Gravity! Puts it all in perspective!....Ive looked at those gel prints before, and its just amazing how a firing multiple calibers and different speeds just doesn't matter to a fluid.....it pretty much equals them out. The faster they travel, the more drag is incurred, the bigger they are the slower they travel....= nearly the same effect in the end. 
It might be a hard concept to wrap a mind around, but a picture is worth a thousand words!

As for newer designs...check out Cor-Bon Pow'r Ball ammo.....nylon insert in the hollowpoint design helps penetrate outer layers, and then helps even deformaton at the right depth of penetration!


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## kaferhaus (Oct 8, 2009)

> Most LEOs are not exited or as knowledgeable about firearms as we are. They really just think of their gun as just another piece of equipment. Many of them poke fun at, "gun nuts" in LEO circles calling them, "gun ****" With that said they really don't know about wound ballistics.


I learned that lesson years ago. It's actually a bit shocking how little most of them know about guns in general including the one they're carrying. And most are horrid marksmen... Now there are indeed plenty of knowledgeable officers around and obviously there are some that are marksmen. But the average cop... no way.


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

I typically load my own. Tried some Hornady Critical Defense in my Sig P220 and they performed great. I wrapped an old Carhartt jacket around a watermelon and cracked off a few rounds. I now have those in my carry pistol.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

Firefishvideo said:


> As for newer designs...check out Cor-Bon Pow'r Ball ammo.....nylon insert in the hollowpoint design helps penetrate outer layers, and then helps even deformaton at the right depth of penetration!


I'm too skeptical about Pow'r Ball ammo. They are in the lightweight and very fast category. When you push a bullet that is designed for expansion your going to possibly get fragmentation which is detrimental to the expansion of a hollow point design. Bullets are designed to expand within a certain velocity window.

Here are some results from Dr. Gary Roberts on Pow'r Ball.



> Originally Posted by *DocGKR Industry Professional*
> _
> *9 mm Corbon 100 gr +P PowerBall 1555 f/s from G17*
> BG: pen=10.9”, RD=0.60”, RW=93.9gr
> ...


The penetration fails to meet the 12 inch requirement and the expanded diameter isn't as good compared to other bullet designs. Also, the barrier performance sucks. Interestingly Hornady's use of a plastic tip in their FTX and Critical Defense ruins barrier performance as well. While I probably won't have to shoot someone behind a windshield as a civilian carrying concealed it's nice to have the option in case I have to.


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## Tippin Slow (Nov 21, 2007)

kaferhaus said:


> I learned that lesson years ago. It's actually a bit shocking how little most of them know about guns in general including the one they're carrying. And most are horrid marksmen... Now there are indeed plenty of knowledgeable officers around and obviously there are some that are marksmen. But the average cop... no way.


A good test is to ask a LEO if it is legal for you to have a gun in your car. If their response starts with "Well, as long as you follow the 3 step rule". Do not trust that the LEO knows what he is talking about.


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## RockB (Oct 11, 2007)

Tippin Slow said:


> A good test is to ask a LEO if it is legal for you to have a gun in your car. If their response starts with "Well, as long as you follow the 3 step rule". Do not trust that the LEO knows what he is talking about.


That is the same question I ask. I have never been told the correct answer. That is why I keep a copy of the pertinent part of the 790 in my vehicles with me. I am not bashing the guys. There is no way that they can be intimately familiar with all the laws that they are expected to enforce. 

_*790.25 Lawful ownership, possession, and use of firearms and other weapons.*--

(3) LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 ( Open carrying of weapons ) and 790.06 ( License to carry concealed weapon or firearm )do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes: 

(l) A person traveling by private conveyance when the weapon is *securely encased* or in a public conveyance when the weapon is securely encased and not in the person's manual possession; 

(17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access. _


3 steps are not mentioned anywhere.

Disclaimer: If you leave the state of Florida all bets are off. Don't be like the lady from TN who tried to check her loaded handgun at the NYC tourist location. If you are leaving a free state and going to a communist state know what the laws are there *BEFORE *you go.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

GFish said:


> Has anyone shot a .45 GAP.


Yes, I frequently carry a G39 as a CCW. My load of choice for self defense is the same as being used by the FHP -- the Speer 200gr Gold Dot JHP. :thumbsup:


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

*A couple of comments made I don't understand. One was about shooting a wood post and the entry and exit holes being similar. It may be alot different for faster traveling rifle rounds but I have shot a 8" diameter pine tree down with one shot with my 308, it simply blew the entire back of the tree away and it fell down. Been so long ago I can't tell you what round I shot. The other is about penitration, If the projectile does not pas through the target does that not mean that 100% of it's Kenetic energy stayed in the target? This is why I would assume the saftey slugs would be a hell of a hit since they don't exit and weigh the same as many hollow point and travel similar speeds.*

*I know my topic was home defense 45 rounds not rifles so I understand it's off topic. I know that speed can do some serious damage in any size projectile. That little 17 HMR is very distructive on vermin and soup cans, lol.*


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

TURTLE said:


> *If the projectile does not pas through the target does that not mean that 100% of it's Kenetic energy stayed in the target? This is why I would assume the saftey slugs would be a hell of a hit since they don't exit and weigh the same as many hollow point and travel similar speeds.*
> 
> *I know my topic was home defense 45 rounds not rifles so I understand it's off topic. I know that speed can do some serious damage in any size projectile. That little 17 HMR is very distructive on vermin and soup cans, lol.*


It's kinda goofy, but Glaser Safety Slugs are actually more lethal after going through walls.

High velocity ammo like the 17hmr, 22 mag and the 5.7 depend on fragmentation of the jacket rather than expansion to do their work. The 5.7 is showing good performance and I like it better than the .22 mag for being centerfire versus rimfire. I would hold off on getting one until some new bullet designs come out though. The Barnes TSX meet the 12 inch FBI depth and offers good cavitation.


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