# Why some people shouldn't be allowed to own a gun...



## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Or, be permitted to reproduce! :no:

Utterly stupid! Darwin would say this young fool should have been eliminated from the gene pool...video attached (click image to view)


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## yallwatchthis (Oct 3, 2007)

argument number one for the legalization of euthanasia these idiots should be removed from the gene pool.


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## BuckWild (Oct 2, 2007)

What an idiot.


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Bet his momma is damn proud of him.. its dumbass people like this that give responsible gun owners a bad name.


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

I saw that several years ago. It's too damn bad the vest worked.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

Pretty funny......if its real.....it IS too bad the vest worked.....most videos like this are fake. The weapon was off camera for several seconds between the demonstration of the live round and the presentation of the weapon......just saying.


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## MULLET HUNTER (Oct 3, 2007)

Wish my vest would have worked as well as that idiots......


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

scubapro said:


> Or, be permitted to reproduce! :no:
> 
> Utterly stupid! Darwin would say this young fool should have been eliminated from the gene pool...video attached (click image to view)




Guys, you crack me up...Do you even think for a second that that was real? watch it....again Darwin just might be making fun of you guys for believing these guys! The kid didnt move on the shot and the other kid punched him to break the blood pack after the shot. I shoot bullet proof vests almost every day in my ccw classes. I know exactly what a vest looks like when it's impacted, especially by a 9mm. The vest would have a massive dent in it wher eit impacted and the kid would be on the ground, especially a skinny kid like him.

I must eat some words...upon further review and more evidence supporting the apparent idiot I'm starting to doubt my post. Although I do believe my explanation was plausible based on the video. You guys still crack me up!

Just simply shows how important shot placement is even with a little drunk guy. I suppose that was a stunned response to, oh wow was I really shot?


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## deersniper270 (Apr 29, 2009)

It can't be real. He didn't even flinch after the shot. He should've been knocked back a little bit at least. If it is real, that's just stupid! lol And why would you aim a gun at someone you know and why would you aim right at his heart!? At least if you hit him in the lung he has a chance to survive!


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## MULLET HUNTER (Oct 3, 2007)

I was hit right below my sternum with a 9mm and my vest didn't leave any impression, and it did not hurt at all, it could be real... Just saying.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Capt Ron said:


> I know exactly what a vest looks like when it's impacted, especially by a 9mm. The vest would have a massive dent in it wher eit impacted and *the kid would be on the ground*, especialy a skinny kid like him.


Really? On the ground - from a wimpy 9mm?

For all the nay sayers...

"Don't believe everything you see on TV, in the movies, in videos games (or from self-proclaimed firearm "experts")..."

These are professionals:


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## SAWMAN (May 24, 2010)

*Really ???*

Capt Ron, may I ask,is your experience with a vest and a 9mm, with the vest WORN by a human or HUNG on a coat hanger ?? I would also like to say(respectfully),do not try,and you cannot,train anyone to a higher level than you have been trained yourself. 

I will admitt,I do not have any expierance with being hit while wearing a vest,although I do have many hours wearing one when in the military and shortly afterward.

My vest(I do believe that I still have it) is the older Point Blank. The level of protection that It provided was minimal. Back in that era NO vest would stop a 7.62X51 Ball rd. The older flack jackets that they tried to make me wear in SE Asia would not stop most anything excepy flack. Many soldiers were killed when a 7.62X39 rd slipped thru and completely thru their body.

I am not a scientist but I have a theory. The stopping power of a vest is dependent on several things. First,the frontal diameter of the bullet. A wider bullet disburses the impact over a wider area. Second,bullet makeup. A FMJ(especially pointy)will penetrate more redily. Speed,this obviously helps to slip thru the weave with shear power(inertia). I would like to see a test done with a M855 NATO rd. I have personally seen them slip thru all kinds of "stuff". 

Additonally.....I believe that the vid posted by scubapro is valid. I have no proof. I am making this(my)determination from reading,studying,and from personel expierance. 

Let's all stay safe out there. --- SAWMAN


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

As for the original subject video -- here is a news interview with the young man who was wearing the vest while shot:





 
Alcohol and firearms don't mix!


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## Gnwdad (Oct 14, 2007)

Wirelessly posted

Idiots!


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

I would have shot him in the face...


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

I can't believe that he thinks he should be hired as a LEO. Yeah, give him a gun.


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

MULLET HUNTER said:


> I was hit right below my sternum with a 9mm and my vest didn't leave any impression, and it did not hurt at all, it could be real... Just saying.


II guarantee when *YOUR *vest was hit, there was an immediate impression as the Kevlar *CAUGHT* the bullet before the Kevlar relaxed back to position, unless the bullet goes right through the vest as some full metal jacket rounds can do and may have actually happened in this case. (still hard to believe it's real) Kevlar is a net. All nets move when they *Catch *something. 

I'll put a video together for you guys of me shooting B.O.B with a vest on and you can see what a Kevlar vest does when its hit.

I have shot straight through a Kevlar vest with monarch ammo, the Russians/Monarch use more steel in their full metal jacket than copper and the monarchs stay hard and deform very little. They wiggled/slid through the Kevlar like a rifle round.

Kevlar doesn't get any weaker with age. Less effective when wet, and when repeatedly shot, and can be destroyed if exposed to direct ultraviolet light. But most vests only expire because of warranty, not quality or effectiveness.

Did the kid ever show his scars from any surgery?

The more I watch the video..that kid is a great actor or he did get hit. He looks hurting bad so I'm rethinking it may very well be real. I did see the vest move even though it was hard to tell in the shade of the camera angel.

As far as it not hurting...I can't comment on that. If hit in a trauma plate I imagine you wouldn't feel much unless the bullet deflected off the plate into your chin.


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

SAWMAN said:


> Capt Ron, may I ask,is your experience with a vest and a 9mm, with the vest WORN by a human or HUNG on a coat hanger ?? I would also like to say(respectfully),do not try,and you cannot,train anyone to a higher level than you have been trained yourself.
> 
> I will admitt,I do not have any expierance with being hit while wearing a vest,although I do have many hours wearing one when in the military and shortly afterward.
> 
> ...


SAWMan,
I'm going to have to respectfully argue your statement _*"you cannot,train anyone to a higher level than you have been trained yourself." *_

All Gold medalist Olympians have coaches that help get them there. I'm the only stress-fire instructor around and you can't stress train yourself very effectively without a coach. You may not understand exactly what I do with more experienced shooters in my training. Firearms training is really the simplest of many instructions because there are really no "advanced" techniques, he who wins is he who masters the fundamentals and turns a drill in an automated response under pressure. I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever lost their life in a gun fight or shooting competition because they failed to use an "advanced technique". That's the great part of coaching and instruction I still get to shoot through shooters with better eyes, faster reflexes, and greater endurance than I have. The secrets are in the methods of instruction and that is what makes every instructor uniquely different for better or for worse.

As far as testing Kevlar vests, I have sold nearly 500 used Kevlar vests in the past 3 years of various brands and ages which I have tested using numerous realistic backings to simulate the human body. I have found with every vest, that out of using 9mm, .40. .45 .357, 9mm penetrates through the most layers of Kevlar consistently. .45 understandably, rarely makes it through one or two layers of the vest. However, Rarely tested the 357 SIG, is a penetrating round!


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

scubapro said:


> Really? On the ground - from a wimpy 9mm?
> 
> For all the nay sayers...
> 
> ...



SCUBAPRO,
I'm not sure what you mean by a "wimpy 9mm". The round the kid was shot with appeared to be aluminum cased low powdered economic range ball ammo, but I'm willing to bet he would have left you alone if he had just demanded your wallet or was trying to break into your house.

All guns and ammo are job specific. I dont chase bad guys with my .380 Kahr. It's simply "A get the F%$# off me gun", so I can get home to my car, for a bigger gun, so I can get back home for my shotgun. 
CCW = Conveniently Carried Weapon.

I use a centurian B.O.B, with a Kevlar vest to display how there's no such thing as knock down power. My training emphasizes 1. having a gun on you to start with and 2. shot placement.
I used to use an old tired with the vest, but now I have several BOBs. 
I typically have the student knock BOB over with one finger using as little effort as possible and I then should BOB with various Calibers, including 12gauge shotgun at nearly point blank range...he rocks but never falls over. I'm using Level 2A very light body armor, so you can imagine the trauma damage is deep behind the vest. Vest ratings are measured on 2 factors for their rating. Ability for bullet to penetrate AND depth of trauma damage measured by the indent in the clay behind the vest after being shot. Europe and America have different standards and ratings for ballistic vests.
Although my vest can easy stop a 12 gauge slug from penetrating through all 14 layers of Kevlar, the slug would easily shatter a rib or explode your sternum bone right through your heart cavity...hence trauma plates and stiff Kevlar of higher rating.

I also use BOB to display what happens when your shove a semi-auto into a person and try to shoot.

Please not to anyone using the S&W Sigma series, once trigger is squeezed while slide is out of battery the slide has to be racked and round ejected to reset the trigger to shoot again. This is not true for Glock, 1911, and most other guns..


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Capt Ron,

My statement about "wimpy 9mm" was in response to your initial reaction and post that the kid would have been "on the ground"...

ALL handguns are inherently weak -- all of them. But, they are what we currently have available to conveniently carry as self defense weapons -- and are certainly better than a pocket full of rocks to throw at an aggressor.

I'm very familiar with body armor -- and the limitations it provides. Rather than spout "knowledge & facts" from years of consulting with law enforcement agencies throughout the country (my paying profession), I'll simply state that all that has been said or claimed in this thread needs to be viewed through a correct "lens" to reveal the facts.

I've not taken a course from you, but I have from the likes of Randy Cain, Louis Awerbuck, Steve Tarani, Bill Jeans, and Pat Rogers. That training has included "stress fire" training. I don't know what your definition of a "stress fire instructor" might be -- but I know that it isn't simply yelling at students, putting them in precarious positions, and possibly slapping them around while they try to shoot -- as some have described such training experiences to me that they have encountered with some instructors...

I'm not trying to attack your intentions, or even your techniques -- and I certainly can't even offer a true eveluation without having seen them first hand. I can only make a personal evaluation based upon what you have on your website, the content of your posts, and the one experience I had to observe you in a training environment under the instruction of another.

There is much to be learned about a potential instructor -- by observing that instructor candidate under the instruction of another. All I'll say about that is that I saw enough to know that I'll stick with the instructors and training facilities that I have used previously for the present time.

I suspect that your intentions are well meaning -- and that you honestly want your students to improve their shooting skills, as well as develop a proper mindset to act instinctively should they ever find themselves in a self defense situation. I believe that some of your methods and techniques might benefit from the evaluation and fine tuning from other well trained instructors, and I encourage you to seek that opportunity out (go take some courses at other well known facilities) -- to make sure what you are doing would be considered a "best practice" and generally safe routine for your students.

Based upon previous statements that I've read in your posts such as "no one can out shoot me", etc. (as well as my only observation of you in the earlier mentioned training environment) -- I'm not sure that you are willing to make that kind of investment in your professional development (or that while taking such a course, you would be content to just "be the student").

I know that after I hit the "post reply" button and I read this post in the thread, it is going to sound harsh. I am tempted to leave things well enough alone and not post the reply, but out of concern for others on this forum -- I just can't. Again, my exposure to you and your methods are extemely limited - but I do have concerns for those here on PFF that might take everything you say and do in a course as being "shooting gospel" without the benefit of comparing it to other training environemnts or instructors.

As for me, I have plenty to learn from others. Even after taking some courses multiple times to the point where I know what is next without looking at an agenda, I still learn something new and make improvements each time. Although I look forward to different and more advanced courses (advanced doesn't necessarily mean that you shoot a bunch more, or faster), I also know that I need to return periodically to the entry-level Handgun 101 course beginning with the basics in order to maintain proficiency.

Finally, I hope that you have liability insurance in place for your courses and students. Yes, it is a significant business expense for a one-man operation like yours -- and the underwriters may not even touch such a policy for you -- but it, as well as a well developed and tested emergency action plan, are important elements that I would want to know exist before I were to take a course at any location.

Regards.


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

scubapro said:


> Capt Ron,
> 
> My statement about "wimpy 9mm" was in response to your initial reaction and post that the kid would have been "on the ground"...
> 
> ...


SCUBA,
Like you, I am always continuing my education. I also appreciate the time you take to write your replies.

So many people are turned one way or another by bravado

Although, there's no law requiring liability insurance, I do have it and it's very affordable as a solo instructor. Significantly cheaper than my SCUBA instructor insurance. An instructor really has to be negligent to be successfully sued. Waivers help, but a person cant sign their rights away to sue for negligence in the US like they can on Italian cruise ships.
If i worried about getting sued, I'd pick another line of business. 
Firearms training falls under calculated risk taking sports. Safety always comes first, but no one is perfect and there's always a chance something very bad can happen. My classes are small in numbers typically 1-2 students. I'm the one most likely to suffer a serious injury. It's the nature of the game. 
I keep praying that God watches over my students during and after my training.


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

Ive read the same thing in one of his posts, that "no one can out shoot me for money"? Just curious Capt., if we were to stand 15 yards back from a rack of five eight inch plates, me drawing and shooting two handed and you one handed, how much money would I have to wager to get you to play?


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## K-Bill (May 14, 2009)

Az-Vic said:


> Ive read the same thing in one of his posts, that "no one can out shoot me for money"? Just curious Capt., if we were to stand 15 yards back from a rack of five eight inch plates, me drawing and shooting two handed and you one handed, how much money would I have to wager to get you to play?


Just curious, why would it not be the same - either two hand or one? Seems like you'd want it the same if you're gonna call somebody out.


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

I wasn't trying to be contentious or unfair Bill. The captain made the statement that one handed shooting is better than two, claiming he can shoot stronger,faster and with more control one handed versus two, and that "no one can out shoot me for money". 
He is obviously very passionate about using one hand, conversely, Im just as passionate about wrapping two around the gun. When Ive been asked by other shooters why do I like two hands on the gun, my pat answer is because, I don't have a third, or Id have three mitts on the gun.
I think one will always shoot stronger,faster and with more control and accuracy using two hands instead of one, so the wager seemed made in heaven?


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

Az-Vic said:


> Ive read the same thing in one of his posts, that "no one can out shoot me for money"? Just curious Capt., if we were to stand 15 yards back from a rack of five eight inch plates, me drawing and shooting two handed and you one handed, how much money would I have to wager to get you to play?




Make it 50 feet, ( I don't want to have to reset my station)
9mm or you can choose any larger pistol caliber for yourself
(10) eight inch plates/10 shots on shot timer with a 5 second penalty for each plate not knocked down/off (must hit at least 5 plates)
fastest time wins
$25.00 per round/ 10 rounds?
I don't mind winning, I don't mind losing. I like playing!
For Clarification:
I didn't mean shooting one handed was better at 45 feet. ANY experienced instructor will tell you that a two handed grip is confusing for a new shooters in a stress fire situation. I meant using one hand was better for new shooters learning to shoot in self defense situations at close distance so that they wouldn't get confused with using both hands. Does anybody on this forum need two hands to kill a bad guy at six feet when the other hand can be used to open doors, push your child out of the way, grab a knife, throw a trash can in front of you or just simply run while shooting?


I still accept the challenge my one hand against your two, simply because I'm that good!


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

Wirelessly posted

I'd like to see this!, hell, I need to go back out to your range and shoot some more Ron!


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

Appreciate your competitive spirit Ron,and your creativity, but the scenario, I all ready laid out; much simplier, without needing a calculator to tally score. Im one of those dinosaur roundgun shooters(revolver), so I'd be clicking on four empty chambers with a ten plate rack. A five plate rack, shooter at 50 feet(five more feet makes no difference to me), hands at side, draw and knock down all five plates on the timer. No need to calculate misses, they are in and of themselves the penalty, for one has to make up time with extra shot/shots, time ends on last shot fired.
Im good with 10 runs at the rack, 25 bucks a go. Like you I just love to play, sounds like a hell of a fun little match!


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

Az-Vic said:


> Appreciate your competitive spirit Ron,and your creativity, but the scenario, I all ready laid out; much simplier, without needing a calculator to tally score. Im one of those dinosaur roundgun shooters(revolver), so I'd be clicking on four empty chambers with a ten plate rack. A five plate rack, shooter at 50 feet(five more feet makes no difference to me), hands at side, draw and knock down all five plates on the timer. No need to calculate misses, they are in and of themselves the penalty, for one has to make up time with extra shot/shots, time ends on last shot fired.
> Im good with 10 runs at the rack, 25 bucks a go. Like you I just love to play, sounds like a hell of a fun little match!


Az-Vic,
uh...if we don't add a time penalty to missed plates then the person who can pull the trigger the fastest whether he hits his target or not wins.? or am I missing something? I was under the impression that a round is won with the overall fastest time with a minimum hit required or no shooter wins the round. 
I did sheriff Morgans fundraiser that way and it worked out nice and simple.

So am I shooting a revolver also or do I get to use one of my Glocks or 1911's? Let me know so that I can practice accordingly. 6 plates six shots make sense? right? Why five, do you have medical endurance issues?
I love revolvers as well, but we must shoot double-action only, no sissy single action sighted shooting. Single action at 50 feet is like shooting slow moving Zombies, not very sporting or challenging. 
I have a crap taurus .38spec six shooter I use in my security officer training and a sweet 10 shot S&W .22 cal K frame sized like the .357 magnum.


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## drifterfisher (Oct 9, 2009)

I want to witness this "shoot out"!!!:thumbup:


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

drifterfisher said:


> I want to witness this "shoot out"!!!:thumbup:


Az-Vic,
If we sell tickets to this shoot out it may pay for all the rounds you lose


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## MULLET HUNTER (Oct 3, 2007)

This went from some idiot getting shot in a vest, to a call each other out shoot off....... I love this forum.......


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

I now understand why Ron can puff out his chest on an internet forum and proclaim; "no one can outshoot me for money".......... I don't know what kind of instructor you are Ron, but I can promise you one thing, you'd of made a hell of a politician, you can crawfish and obfuscate with the best of em.


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

Az-Vic said:


> I now understand why Ron can puff out his chest on an internet forum and proclaim; "no one can outshoot me for money".......... I don't know what kind of instructor you are Ron, but I can promise you one thing, you'd of made a hell of a politician, you can crawfish and obfuscate with the best of em.



Oh come on brother, I have been practicing standing on one leg on an upside-down bosu ball with one hand shooting plates at 50' just for you.
I admit, I was cheating using a 1911, not a revolver


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

You can use any flavor you like, pistol or revolver, doesn't matter to me. No need for the usual captains flair for various gymnastics, physical or rhetorical. Just stand on your hind legs, draw and shoot one handed (because you can shoot faster,stronger and with more control), and mow down five 8" steel plates as fast as you can,with five shots or twenty. 
Practice this simple format until you get down to around three seconds, the give me a shout and we will do a few runs so I can take your money.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Think you guys should sell tickets -- and donate the proceeds to a worthy charity... I'd pay to come see a shoot-off!


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

:fishslap: someone make the popcorn!


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

OMG, there is no friggin way I would let anyone shoot me in the chest. even if I were standing behind a tank and the guy had a bb gun. wow, wow


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## Seanpcola (Jun 27, 2011)

scubapro said:


> Think you guys should sell tickets -- and donate the proceeds to a worthy charity... I'd pay to come see a shoot-off!


I'm in.:thumbsup:


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## K-Bill (May 14, 2009)

yall just agree on a format and let's do it. better yet, let the fans - i mean forum -decide what format the contest will be. that way neither has an advantage. obviously each of you has a particular routine you're good with. i vote the contest should not be either of your routines. i do like that a missed shot results in a penalty. anyone can go out and blow thru a magazine and probably hit some plates.


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## TraderDan (Jul 25, 2009)

*missed plates*

In the case of 5 plates and no penalty senerio, the timer does not stop until all 5 plates are down, and it is the standard type of plate shooting I have seen. By far the simplest and fairest way to judge, speed & accuracy combo. Git er Done. However you hardly ever see the man that can Walk The Walk , Talk The Talk????


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## K-Bill (May 14, 2009)

TraderDan said:


> In the case of 5 plates and no penalty senerio, the timer does not stop until all 5 plates are down, and it is the standard type of plate shooting I have seen. By far the simplest and fairest way to judge, speed & accuracy combo. Git er Done. However you hardly ever see the man that can Walk The Walk , Talk The Talk????


fair enough - let's do it that way then. see how easy that is?? haha. i would hope that a guy who's living is made around firearms and his own range would be pretty good (not saying you have be a great shooter to teach safety courses). and i would hope that the guy who calls him out is pretty good as well. so i'm hoping both agree on something and come with their A game.


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## MikeH (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't see how this contest is relevant to someone getting shot in the chest, or even how it is relevant to capt rons training..unless the plates are shooting back.


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## K-Bill (May 14, 2009)

MikeH said:


> I don't see how this contest is relevant to someone getting shot in the chest, or even how it is relevant to capt rons training..unless the plates are shooting back.


it's not. but check back to post #22 to at least give an idea of how it came up.


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

Trader Dan is absolutely correct; that how falling plates are shot. There is no need to make extraneous penalties, the very fact all plates must be hit for the time to end takes into consideration that an extra shot or ten makes a built in penalty. 
It's as simple or complicated as you want to make it I suppose? It's just a straight forward simple test of both speed and accuracy.


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## drifterfisher (Oct 9, 2009)

scubapro said:


> Think you guys should sell tickets -- and donate the proceeds to a worthy charity... I'd pay to come see a shoot-off!


+1!!!


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## Capt Ron (Aug 12, 2008)

Az-Vic, if you want to shoot spray and pray plates, I'm good with that too I have a 33 round magazine for my Glock!

I just figured six bullets for six bad guys. It puts more emphasis on accuracy under pressure. 
How many of you carry more than 6 or seven rounds when you carry?
And don't bs me about how you all carry at least two mags...
Think of it like this, if you miss a bad guy you don't lose, you just die!


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## Marine Scout (Nov 18, 2007)

There are some real dumbasses in this world!!


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## aaronious45 (Dec 15, 2011)

How has this not made it to tosh.0???


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## Seanpcola (Jun 27, 2011)

aaronious45 said:


> How has this not made it to tosh.0???



I would say send it in and see if he show it but I think we don't need to advertise idiots like this. Just stirs up the Lefties and Anti-gun bunch.

I wasn't too happy to see Tosh show the video and interview of the guy that shot himself during a quick draw. I think the guy's first name is Tex. It really put normal Americans in a bad light.


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## bama99 (Dec 20, 2009)

On a lighter note: The stupidity of the guys in the original video can't hold a candle to the Super Troopers. 

How you shooting today?.....That little guy....oh I wouldn't worry about that little guy!....


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## MikeH (Jul 14, 2009)

if I'm not mistaken this video, was on tosh.o last season.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

So, last time something like this happened we ended up eating a ton of hot sauce and donating the winnings to Jimmie to help him with medical expenses and so on. If you guys really decide to get at this then I would suggest a repeat of the hotsauce challenge. Then you guys can compare penises AND it can benefit a fellow PFF'r.


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## aaronious45 (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the tards in the video are members of the commi left...they look like fine young dope smoking eminem listening idiots to me...I'm a tosh-a-haulic but I haven't seen it on there..not to say it wasn't.. There will be no comparing of penises on PFF haha


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