# Antler Restriction... Another View...



## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

_****Diaclaimer*** all of the following is strictly the semi-educated opinion of one ******* country feller. *_

I fully understand the intention in the concept of various antler restriction plans.

But I think it can or does have potential to cause far more harm than good to the overall quality of the herd.

Now hear me out...

In an ideal management plan, You would be dealing with mostly quality genes.

You would also have full control over all aspects of the land, herd, food, predators and human interaction.

In this situation, you would be able to prevent the take of the young bucks until their full "trophy" potential is realized. Then you could, in theory, expand the restriction to an 8 point minimum...

And if you seen a deer with only 2 on one side at 3 years old, you would want the cull removed from the gene pool...

Here is how I see them...

First off, they limit my potential meat harvest... If I were in a payin' club, I would abide by their rules and prefer fewer restrictions on public lands...

I care naught for antlers and really want barely legal "drag handles".

I think antler restrictions without age restrictions are absolutely no help at best and harmful to the herd at worst.

I can't tell much about a deer except buck or doe and with a scope, I can tell if he is legal spike at a hunert yards..:whistling:

I never studied age estimation and if I had I would want young bucks.

Now here is where I think we have good intentions gone wrong. 
If we have a 3 on one side minimum, I am gonna shoot 'em... What if that is first year growth? A nice wide and tall 6 pointer his first year with twigs...

Wouldn't he be one you would want left to live until 4, 5, or 6 years old?
Ain't he the "Gene Pool Lifeguard" you want?

There are a fair number of us that will be forced to take more of the better quality "trophy" prospects that are the genetic minority in a diverse population of genetics.

What I have gleaned in goin' on 43 years of watchin' wildlife is that a 2 year old with 4-6 inch spikes isn't a B&C contender at all... He is gonna be decent little rack his whole life at best or a cowhorn cull at worst... 
On the other hand, a 2 year old with a wide tall 3 per side is a warrior prospect.

Some of ya'll has worked for the skills and abilities to judge that and can see the crucial potential... It is this buck that you see and say to yourself, "I sure hope he lives to 4 or 5.... I hope some yay-hoo don't see this gem, he will make a great breeder later not a trophy today..."

With a 3 per side rule, All them cowhorn spikes get to live protected from man to breed "junk deer" genetics into the herd, further slowing any improvement.

Well, I promise that if I see a big rack and a spike together with current regs, I always level on the little one... I want an easy tote of my gutted buck back to the truck and I don't make 2 trips so deer on my back and gun in my hands...

I am pretty sure that those of you who care about trophies and know all the nuances of aging deer and such are far in the minority to those of us who are either total meat gatherers or just slob weekend deer slayers.

I ain't hatin' on restrictions... just throwin' this in there for consideration.

Brent


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

does eat just as well and you have a week to kill them so it makes no sense to kill young bucks unless defective. My solution take 2-3 does maybe a trophy Fl buck and all the hogs I can eat!


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

But Frank, I ain't allowed to hunt does as many days so scheduling conflicts often cause logistics snafu's causing me to miss many season days...

And 2 other reasons for taking youngsters is vision capability and target presentation time constraints... If I had the ability to "age" live deer, I would likely not have time to do so on many of the deer I have taken. I do not stand hunt and my idea of still hunting is really many walks with many short breaks. 

One more reason for taking young bucks is simply, they don't get old by bein' stupid... I hunt with non of the major advancements in hunting "products".

Nothin' "scent free" about me.:whistling: 
The older ones do not present me a broadside near as often as younger ones.

I do feel there is better table fare potential on a younger specimen if all other life aspects were equal... 

And as I already said, I am 100% positive that an older more mature buck is a denser more muscular animal and looks deceivingly easier to tote while viewed through the irons sights of a .30-30 Marlin...

Brent


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

> does eat just as well


why does the word does and does have to be spelled the same???

the doe does doe things and the buck does buck things?
Brent


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

Brent, that is why they call it Huntin' not Killin', want quality deer you cannot kill all the young ones at 2 yrs old. If Hunters are not careful there will be a 1 or 2 deer limit in FL and that is it. Wanna feed the family, kill hogs, no limits, no age restrictions.


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

But here in lies the crux... If there is only a single spike limit, as is, then you are not protecting the junk deer do breed junk cowhorn genetics into the herd. Cowhorns do not promote a quality "trophy" herd.

Most of your "trophy" quality prospects are showing more than a spike or 2 their first time with head gear... 

Most of your barely par or sub par herd members are not sporting a whole lot of head gear their first time or 2 with antlers...

These are just my findings over the years.

But I feel that a "publicly accessible" population suffers where a "fully managed" population can see awesome improvements. But as I said before, in a fully managed herd, the cowhorns die with a quickness...


Brent


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

I said you can take defective deer out of the population. Ours is an 8 point club but we do take bad genetics out of the population. With a doe tag and doe week, bad genetics, my only legal buck would have to be a 10-12 pointer, otherwise I will not take one ...


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

As for hogs... Yeah, I love them too... But a guy has to eat deer often so he appreciates the pork even more...:thumbup:

I really am not only speaking of me I am speakin' for the average guy... Deer huntin' is so much easier than hog hunting. If not on a lease ($$$) with plots ($$$) , slingers ($$$), hog toys ($$$)... hoggin' with a gun can be a BEAR!!!

I do not worry with promoting larger antler growth, I am a meat killer, I see a bunch of CHEAP meat in a genuine fur grocery sack...

My ultimate goal is FREE meat but if I can keep it hovering at $.10# I and wifey are happy.

This includes EVERY expense including the gloves i bought last spring on clearance sale. Gas to and from, extra gatorade... all of it... I can't do many "dry runs" passin' on shots and maintain this level of spartan savings.

Brent


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

> I said you can take defective deer out of the population. Ours is an 8 point club but we do take bad genetics out of the population. With a doe tag and doe week, bad genetics, my only legal buck would have to be a 10-12 pointer, otherwise I will not take one ...


Well first, I agree a lease should do what they agree to with rules regarding their "semi-managed" (they can come and go if they wish) herd...

I really meant the whole thread at state imposed antler restrictions such as a 3 on one side or various others already in place in the nation or considered... as state regs.

Brent


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

It seems the end goal is based purely on the size of antlers and very little else.
as a meat hunter I must say , I have never gone into a butcher shop or restaurant and ordered the oldest , toughest , gamiest tasting piece of meat they have.
my neighbors are meat hunters also. any deer I let walk , they will take.
I only shoot young bucks and have a ton of doe's , thus each year I have a lot of fawns and perhaps half become young bucks which goes into the freezer the following year if they hang around.
the smart young bucks quickly move into the surrounding wetlands , deep forest , or International paper land which boarders mine.
during the rut , they come back and I get my chance at them and there are a lot of them
in the 3 years I have owned my land the deer population has doubled and if my puppy didn't chew the freezer wire I wouldn't be buying red meat now.
I know this is contrary to the way many of you think but I am not interested in large antlers and tough smelly , gammy meals. 

I only take 4 deer each year and it is so easy to do , I do not own enough land to start a huge antler growing program JMO


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

Depending on where you hunt, you worry bout size. BW is anything legal but they do not have a doe week like on private land. Doe to buck ratio in BW is all outta whack. I do believe in having a point regulation on public lands like BW. I wish it was forked rule so maybe more bucks will be given a chance. I wish the state would allow folk to BUY doe tags and be able to shoot them until late December. If the state would chage 25 a tag folks would buy them. As always that will just work fer the legal hunters, you will always have the small percentage of illegal hunters. 

I'm living in a dream world though!!!


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

WOW - You guys said alot.... and I didn't understand half of it... Let me sum up the parts I understood.
#1 Hogdog don't like any restrictions especially antler 
#2 Hogdog likes to eat tender deer 
#3 Frank likes to shoot & eat hogs & does
#4 Hogdog works to much during doe week
#5 Hogdog thinks that young deer are easy to kill
#6 Frank thinks Hogdog should stop killin' young deer & start killin' hogs
#7 Hisname agrees with Hogdog
#8 Hisname may have a puppy for sale
#9 Jason doesn't like to type the whole word "Blackwater"
#10 Try'n hard don't have a lot to do


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

Try'n Hard said:


> WOW - You guys said alot.... and I didn't understand half of it... Let me sum up the parts I understood.
> #1 Hogdog don't like any restrictions especially antler
> #2 Hogdog likes to eat tender deer
> #3 Frank likes to shoot & eat hogs & does
> ...


:yes::yes::yes: Bout sums it up!!!!:laughing:


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

Come-on guys it was better before you summarized, who is where, what is when and George went that way!


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

so, who's on first?


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## imkilroy (Oct 27, 2007)

Try'n Hard said:


> WOW - You guys said alot.... and I didn't understand half of it... Let me sum up the parts I understood.
> #1 Hogdog don't like any restrictions especially antler
> #2 Hogdog likes to eat tender deer
> #3 Frank likes to shoot & eat hogs & does
> ...


That's some funny $&!* right there!!

I think the FWC does a horrid job of deer management. They say they want a better deer herd, but they don't allow proper herd management on public land by the way of doe harvest, and they do not have any regulation to promote antler growth or a better buck population. If you went to a forked horn rule the number of bucks harvested would only be impacted for a year, maybe two. After the 1st year most of the spike that walked the year before would be fork horned by year two. As far as cull bucks go, it does the herd no real benefit to take them out. It mainly serves to leave more resources for other deer with better genetics. If a buck and doe fawn twins are born and the buck is a 170 lb cowhorn at 3 years old, doesn't his twin sister have the same genetic's? How do you tell a cull doe? 
I agree with Jason that if the state wanted to sell doe tag's on a limited basis for state management land it would be a good way for the state to raise money. I think $25 a tag is a little steep, but that's just me. As far as private land owners and clubs having to buy tag's I would strongly disagree. On large clubs that get 100 to 200 tags for proper herd control it would break the bank. Of course all this is just a poor ol crackers opinion.


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## PanhandleBob (Mar 16, 2011)

Doe week?

Grab a bow and get a month 1/2 of doe hunting....come on guys think outside the box 

And for even more fun hunt with it all year and stick a nice ruttin' buck


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## Stumpknocker (Oct 3, 2007)

PanhandleBob said:


> Doe week?
> 
> Grab a bow and get a month 1/2 of doe hunting....come on guys think outside the box
> 
> And for even more fun hunt with it all year and stick a nice ruttin' buck


 
I agree!!

As for Blackwater, yes, the buck/doe ratio is out of whack, but compare Blackwater to most other FL management areas and it has way more deer and much better hunting (that, of course, is a matter of opinion). It might help if a limited number of doe tags were given out during the quota drawing, but that would probably just get abused and create all kinds of problems. 

I'm with Jason, I'd love to see an antler restriction out there. Honestly, I think that's all it needs.


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

*PLEASE keep in mind I am not arguing... Rather simple debate. 

*_By the way, kilroy, excellent post!_


> I think the FWC does a horrid job of deer management.


AMEN!!! 


> They say they want a better deer herd, but they don't allow proper herd management on public land by the way of doe harvest, and they do not have any regulation to promote antler growth or a better buck population.


Well, they do have public land doe season. They just don't require WMA's to honor their season.

I don't see a reason why it is my state's job to manipulate the herd. whether it costs me or my state... it has to cost somebody... Management ain't free and more management is more $$$...

If you (the sporting deer hunter in general) want wild racks and big bucks, there are places where that is naturally occurring.


> If you went to a forked horn rule the number of bucks harvested would only be impacted for a year, maybe two. After the 1st year most of the spike that walked the year before would be fork horned by year two.


I do not have any way to speculate either way on a time frame.
But you want "better antlers"... 
What you suggest still only assures that some of the spikes will eventually be average little bucks as we already have. The deer you want to protect, as I already said, is a 4-6 point 2 year old! He is tomorrow's "trophy". And he needs alot of food. But you limit the take of the culls where we get to this...


> As far as cull bucks go, it does the herd no real benefit to take them out. It mainly serves to leave more resources for other deer with better genetics.


I would say that leaving more resources for deer with better genetics is a quite real benefit to herd management.


> If a buck and doe fawn twins are born and the buck is a 170 lb cowhorn at 3 years old, doesn't his twin sister have the same genetic's? How do you tell a cull doe?


Yes, and I wish we had a way to judge them and cull them too. But the ability for everyone to do a part in herd management to suit there needs is better than none. We have a short doe season anyway. With Bucks, if I had enuff people in line wanting deer I would try my best to "limit out" on our gracious "2 per day" limit. 
I think that my targeting little spikes and dinky forks (I rarely shoot more than a 4) Leaves more and better deer for individuals such as ya'll on here to select from. 
I honestly let what I can obviously tell is a youngster (bright coat, little head, not overly cut and defined) who has a WIDE 4 or any form of 5 or more points gets a pass from me. I see his potential in a few years to a rack hunter.


> I agree with Jason that if the state wanted to sell doe tag's on a limited basis for state management land it would be a good way for the state to raise money.


They would save money during the deer seasons if they eased our doe restrictions... 

They NEED TO REDUCE DOE POPULATIONS!!! Let us have a more liberal doe take and force the WMA's to honor state doe season and limits until they can prove it needs changed.


> I think $25 a tag is a little steep, but that's just me. As far as private land owners and clubs having to buy tag's I would strongly disagree. On large clubs that get 100 to 200 tags for proper herd control it would break the bank. Of course all this is just a poor ol crackers opinion.


I simply cannot justify much more expense. I hunt for cheap protein source. Nothing more... Nothing less... It don't take much to offset my projected cost per pound. 
If it nears commercial meat cost, my guns have to go in the closet.
Brent


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## Collard (Oct 23, 2007)

A problem you never see addressed is the impact horn restrictions have on a lot of the local poulation of people where most of us go to hunt. We take for granted all the nice available lease land in the best areas and call for more restrictions so we can see a MONSTER ,or have a chance at seeing one, everytime we go out. The indigenous people of these areas largely rely on Venison to get them through the year. By placing more and more horn restrictions on the herd the more chances are taken away for some of the locals. Now Alabama has helped tremendously with their liberal doe season, Florida could take a hint from them. 
Hunting used to be just that, hunting. Now it's so commercialized it's ridiculous. Thank Jackie"jerkoff"Bushman for that. He started the landslide with his show years ago and it still gaining momentum, but I digress. Horn restrictions place the emphasis on something hunting is not about. Yeh we all want to kill a big one, but that's supposed to come by doing your homework and finfding one. Not growing one like a tomato and picking it when it's ripe. I can't see watching a deer 4-6 years and finally saying,"Ok, he;s big enough now.....BLAM." HUNT, and the big ones will come. It's supposed to be a surprise and a payoff for doing your homework, putting out the effort,not effort of building a shooting house and toting sacks of corn,but effort in scouting and putting your time in the woods to good use. I hate horn growing, I LOVE hunting. Sadly Hunting is drifting away to shooting houses and corn feeders and most kids today think that is the way you're supposed to do it.....the easy way. ....................Ok I'm done.......FLAME ON!!!


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## Stumpknocker (Oct 3, 2007)

Collard said:


> A problem you never see addressed is the impact horn restrictions have on a lot of the local poulation of people where most of us go to hunt. We take for granted all the nice available lease land in the best areas and call for more restrictions so we can see a MONSTER ,or have a chance at seeing one, everytime we go out. The indigenous people of these areas largely rely on Venison to get them through the year. By placing more and more horn restrictions on the herd the more chances are taken away for some of the locals. Now Alabama has helped tremendously with their liberal doe season, Florida could take a hint from them.
> Hunting used to be just that, hunting. Now it's so commercialized it's ridiculous. Thank Jackie"jerkoff"Bushman for that. He started the landslide with his show years ago and it still gaining momentum, but I digress. Horn restrictions place the emphasis on something hunting is not about. Yeh we all want to kill a big one, but that's supposed to come by doing your homework and finfding one. Not growing one like a tomato and picking it when it's ripe. I can't see watching a deer 4-6 years and finally saying,"Ok, he;s big enough now.....BLAM." HUNT, and the big ones will come. It's supposed to be a surprise and a payoff for doing your homework, putting out the effort,not effort of building a shooting house and toting sacks of corn,but effort in scouting and putting your time in the woods to good use. I hate horn growing, I LOVE hunting. Sadly Hunting is drifting away to shooting houses and corn feeders and most kids today think that is the way you're supposed to do it.....the easy way. ....................Ok I'm done.......FLAME ON!!!



Well said!


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

I would say the locals living on venison all year long are poachers, none of us hunters are starving and between your gun/ammo, license, gas and everything else it would be cheaper to buy meat. I know some leases give away tremendous amounts of meat each year, it is a shame they are not allowed to accept hogs too.

It is called hunting not killing for a reason.


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

Collard, that is basically one point I was tryin' to make.

Frank, I am sorry you have such an opinion. I am not a poacher. I struck out last season but luckily that was mostly due to not getting out.

I do hunt legal and I do rely on the deer meat. I am trying to get my venison to under fifty cents per pound each season and with care and luck i can get to under $.25 per pound. I do eat swine too. But I am not a sport hunter. I only ran enuff corn in my "birdbath" deer feeder so I can legally shoot over it so I don't even have to burn gas to go to the woods or buy eglin pass.

I am "Team FoodStamps Huntin". 

And your ideals of deer hunting are purely "Sporting" and I can respect that but I expect the same when folks realize I am hunting as our forefathers did. I don't go lookin' to kill when I am fine with other food. I don't care about racks... I have no use for them any way. I never found one decent use for one other than a hat rack but I use only 2-3 hats at a time and they are on my key rack at the door...

Brent


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

It's just like fishing. Some like to take their time and go for the big ones. Others would be happy to go out and come in with a cooler full of white trout. It's all preference. If you want to do antler management on your land/lease, then I doubt someone's opinion on this forum will change that. I hunt for meat first and foremost, and when the freezer is stocked, then I look for the wall hangers. It's worked for me for the last 17 years.


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

Brent, in no way was I implying you or anyone here was a poacher, I said those that hunt deer all year long are. I can appreciate those hunting for food that have no choice, yes our forefathers did that and there was not a grocery store on every corner. Just the Gas alone makes any meat I get much more than you are talking about so I don't know how you do it and drive more than 5 miles.

Regardless Brent and others I am not and did not intend to offend you, just saying if you care about proper deer management, care about the condition and age of the deer, you should kill does and mature buck. I pay to be on a club that manages deer and no one has to hunt for food, Thanks God!

I made an offer on GCFC, guess I will repeat it here, yes it is restrictive for some and I am sorry for that...

* Free pork *

Ok looking for folks to take killed hogs..this is the hard part...I am not cleaning the damn thing for you, I am hunting Panama City close to the new airport turn off on Hwy79. I am not gutting, cleaning, taking to the processor for you. I will call and tell you I am going out to hunt, then call if I get a hog, then meet you at the gate or if it is on my way home, I will do that. The hog will be dead, on my tailgate to roll onto your tail gate, we try to take head and neck shots especially in this heat and the fact it is going to take 30 or so min after the kill to get it to you. Usually in the evenings to 9-10PM, every once in awhile AM time period. We can kill many more than we can ever eat but I am not killing them if they will not get eaten. I will sort of target a size range for you, we have choices between 50 and 250 lbs. Churches, Charities, individuals, especially those having a hard time are all eligible. I know the tough thing is the coordination, location and the fact you will not get free pork, processed and in freezer wrap...but that is the deal...write if interested.​


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

> and drive more than 5 miles.


This is one of my exact intentions:thumbup:
Brent


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

All joking aside - We're not going to solve this debate on this forum but it is great when we disagree and still remain civil. Some of the shade tree game biologist on here have really gone way out on a limb with their theories. I will say that "collards" post was one of the best I've seen, and I think if Hogdog can get venison for under .50 a pound he should run for office... figure it up yourself. 
I like to kill deer, I do all my own game processing and have bought enough equipment over the last several years to make a full time butcher jealous. I like to eat deer - everything from cured smoked venison hams to jerky & my favorite - venison salami!!
Our club is 7 pt or better with as many doe tags as you want... and because we have few members & pay through the nose - the huntin' is easy. most years I kill two three does & a couple of bucks.... nice deer but very seldom wall hangers. I did kill three very nice bucks this year & I can tell you that killin' big deer is more fun than killin' little deer! The one thing I've learned is that hunting is supposed to be fun - worry about yourself & kill what you want as long as it is allowed by the state or your club. Don't worry or get upset about what others do - RowRowRow your boat & not my boat & I'll try & do the same.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm going to say this and it isn't going to popular with some.

People who use the excuse "meat hunter" to kill every legal deer they see drives me nuts. You will see the same guys each year at the local stop and rob, he will have a six point one day and the next he will have a small spike.

Do you really need/want the meat that bad?


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

Collard said:


> A problem you never see addressed is the impact horn restrictions have on a lot of the local poulation of people where most of us go to hunt.
> 
> The indigenous people of these areas largely rely on Venison to get them through the year. By placing more and more horn restrictions on the herd the more chances are taken away for some of the locals.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

> I think if Hogdog can get venison for under .50 a pound he should run for office... figure it up yourself.


$22 for huntin' lic. with deer stamp
$5 per 5 20 ga. slugs (really it is less than that)
$4 for 1.5 round trips worth of gas
$.75 for 2 peanut butter and honey samiches
$5 for enuff gatorade for a couple trips at least
So for $36.75 I am pretty set for my first deer and should have some of the above to roll over into subsequent kills.

I keep every ounce of meat I can find including the neck, belly and between the ribs. Conservative guess... Just meat only I am sure to put away 30-40 pounds of meat. So my second deer only requires (if I am fully lucky) a few cents for samiches, a shell out of the existing box and a splash of gas and a drink so a second kill should have me at about .50 cents per pound.:thumbup:


> People who use the excuse "meat hunter" to kill every legal deer they see drives me nuts. You will see the same guys each year at the local stop and rob, he will have a six point one day and the next he will have a small spike.
> 
> Do you really need/want the meat that bad?


What irks me is a guy who claims to be a meat hunter but he buys the newest camo every year. All the scent blocker stuff. Shoots ammo at $40 a box and uses 4-5 boxes each season to get "sighted in" and never fires off a single round but rather unloads the .300 BAR in rapid fire at every runnin' deer he sees.

The guy who drives 60+ miles one way after work to put in an hour on stand before dark...

They are probably at or above $700.00 per pound if they broke it all down...:whistling:

Brent


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

hogdogs said:


> $22 for huntin' lic. with deer stamp
> $5 per 5 20 ga. slugs (really it is less than that)
> $4 for 1.5 round trips worth of gas
> $.75 for 2 peanut butter and honey samiches
> ...


Haha - You proved my point - Please run for County Commish. so they can put you in charge of the budget.... 
On the other hand - If you can get your first deer of the season for less than $100 - I would be surprised, also with the young, small deer you
hunt your not going to end up with much more than 25 to 30 pds of meat. I doubt you will kill a deer until your tenth trip, if you kill one at all based on post 23 above which states you didn't kill anything last season. Which by the way you need to figure all of last years cost into your first deer this year - just to get a fair cost estimate of a per pound price. Glad you raised your cost estimate from .10 per pound (earlier in the thread) to the above .50 per pound but I still think you will be way better off (money wise) to put the guns in the closet and buy T-Bone steaks every night! I estimate my cost per pound to be - I wouldn't dare estimate it! 
Hunt because you enjoy it and...
Again, you row your boat & I'll row mine.


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

TryNHard, I am scared to figure the per pound cost, the gun, ammo, all costs and poundage of the meat would be a scary # even if averaged for 5 years...I know I could have eaten very well and made a couple of house payments!


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## ScullsMcNasty (Oct 4, 2007)

Outside9 said:


> I'm going to say this and it isn't going to popular with some.
> 
> People who use the excuse "meat hunter" to kill every legal deer they see drives me nuts. You will see the same guys each year at the local stop and rob, he will have a six point one day and the next he will have a small spike.
> 
> Do you really need/want the meat that bad?


im gonna agree. especially the ones that are "meat hunters" and get in hunting leases. if youre just hunting for meat, save up a few dollars each paycheck and by the time Sept rolls around you can buy yourself a crossbow. that means, no more excuse about not being a bowhunter. now you can bowhunt with a gun.. go to blackwater the first 2 weekends and youll have a full freezer for the rest of the year. 
personally i could care less cause what you do on public land doesnt affect me a bit. heck, what you do on private land doesnt affect me either, as long as youre not hunting the property next to mine.

now getting back to the subject, yes antler restrictions has pros and cons. the reason antler restrictions are the norm for deer management is because the vast majority of hunters havent seen enough live MATURE bucks to be able to destinguish between a young 8 and a old 8. the majority of people see 8pts and down it goes. BUT you have to have some sort of management procedure and antler restrictions is the easiest one to save the vast majority of young deer. yea youre gonna have a few beautiful young 8pts killed every year that would have developed into great trophy FL bucks but you have to take the good with the bad. What really hurts is when you let that beautiful young 8 walk half the year to have the kid next to you blast him come Jan..


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## PanhandleBob (Mar 16, 2011)

You can be a "meat hunter" and manage your deer herd at the same time...just saying, best of both worlds. I am a "meat hunter"....

I would say there are few people out there that eat deer meat like I do....I do not buy red meat at the grocery store (unless it's been a very bad season). Anything I eat at home that would normally call for beef I use deer....so dang near every day I'm eating deer meat.

I say all that to say this...you can fill the freezer without killing spikes  I do it every year. 

I agree with Sculls....antler restrictions for most is the only way to try and take a mature buck...if you use antler point restrictions, mass restrictions, beam length, spread, and body weight you can come even closer to killing mature bucks (not perfect though).


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

FrankwT said:


> TryNHard, I am scared to figure the per pound cost, the gun, ammo, all costs and poundage of the meat would be a scary # even if averaged for 5 years...I know I could have eaten very well and made a couple of house payments!


AINT IT THE TRUTH... BUT, I got the rest out in enjoying the hunting & fellowship... money well spent!!


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

cost per pound becomes irrelevant when your wife has a inherited genetic problem with small arteries and has already had a heart attack and two stints.

I know I can buy wild game at the " Butcher Shop" at Lilian and Fairfield but have no way of knowing any of the history to the meat , besides price per pound is WAY up there.


when I was young I did Bow hunt. It was a " Challenge ", plus I had scared the deer pretty bad by the time gun season came in.

now i prefer comfort and a quick hunt


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

Guys, I am really the exception to the rule...



> On the other hand - If you can get your first deer of the season for less than $100 - I would be surprised, also with the young, small deer you
> hunt your not going to end up with much more than 25 to 30 pds of meat.


Many people are surprised at my meager ways and low buck (pun intended) venison.
And even at 20# per deer, I am still not far from .50# with just a few deer.


> I doubt you will kill a deer until your tenth trip, if you kill one at all based on post 23 above which states you didn't kill anything last season.


Last year was a fluke. I tend to trend for a dry dun on my first trip but better than 50% kill on my second trip out.
The details man... the details... Last year I was out only 3 times... TOTAL during general gun and 2 of those days was a feeble attempt to show a forum member a hog caught by my hog dogs... All 3 trips were in a dog zone hopin' to pick one off in front of one of Junior's buddies beagles.


> Which by the way you need to figure all of last years cost into your first deer this year - just to get a fair cost estimate of a per pound price.


Yes, I do this each year... Last years costs to my wallet to hunt are my license and ammo... I still have the ammo so I will be adding the $17 for sure... 


> Glad you raised your cost estimate from .10 per pound (earlier in the thread)


Actually I changed nothing... $.50 is the mark have to beat to stay under chicken leg quarter price... 
Under a dime per pound is the real goal of my cheap ass intentions...


> but I still think you will be way better off (money wise) to put the guns in the closet and buy T-Bone steaks every night! I estimate my cost per pound to be - I wouldn't dare estimate it!
> Hunt because you enjoy it and...
> Again, you row your boat & I'll row mine.


Yeah, at $7.00 per pound, I couldn't afford to deer hunt and that is fun... I doubt wifey is gonna find the funds to buy store bought "pre-kill" meat...

Frank says,


> TryNHard, I am scared to figure the per pound cost, the gun, ammo, all costs and poundage of the meat would be a scary # even if averaged for 5 years...I know I could have eaten very well and made a couple of house payments!


The gun I own and use cost me under $150 22 years ago... The ammo costs under .65 per round and 2 or 3 is all I fire to make sure I and my gun are ready to to do one shot kills...

I burn no gas to scout etc. I do not work plots, own tractor, buy corn (except a few bags this year so I can hunt them in the front yard to save gas) or other "supplements"...

But really, guy... To each his own and I respect everyone's approach to the use of our resources. Just don't holler at me when you see me "sneaky snakin' " along a trail in the afternoon... I am just headed to a shady spot for the dusk movement hours...:thumbup:

Brent


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## PanhandleBob (Mar 16, 2011)

Try'n Hard said:


> AINT IT THE TRUTH... BUT, I got the rest out in enjoying the hunting & fellowship... money well spent!!


Amen!


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

Let me add to my statement. I say this every year. Florida has a screwed up doe season, especially on Blackwater and Eglin. I can't figure out why the don't allow more does to be taken during hunting season, that way a guy wanting meat would be able to take a doe vs a young buck.







Outside9 said:


> I'm going to say this and it isn't going to popular with some.
> 
> People who use the excuse "meat hunter" to kill every legal deer they see drives me nuts. You will see the same guys each year at the local stop and rob, he will have a six point one day and the next he will have a small spike.
> 
> Do you really need/want the meat that bad?


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

> Let me add to my statement. I say this every year. Florida has a screwed up doe season, especially on Blackwater and Eglin. I can't figure out why the don't allow more does to be taken during hunting season, that way a guy wanting meat would be able to take a doe vs a young buck.


I agree... I was even wondering if a one doe per day would be sustainable or how it could be liberally increased with understandable sustainable rules.

Brent


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

there is one positive factor to the " price per pound " situation.
Hunting is expensive to get into but if you take care of most of what you invest in then it will last you a life time.
I never intend to replace my Tikka Rifle or the scope that is on it.
the land is paid for and I am building what will probably be my last hunting house. I certainly see every ones point about concern for the deer herd and I hope you can see mine. My family means more to me than a deer herd and 20 - 25 lbs of tender non gammy meat will be enjoyed a lot more than 40 - 45 lbs of tough gamy meat that will set on the plate and go to the dogs.

my concept of never shooting doe's , results in a lot of doe's , giving me a lot of young deer which fills the freezer for a year [ this year not included ] and eliminates the need to buy red meat.

25 lbs of deer equals 25+ meals for my wife and I . eaten 3 times a week , that is over 2 months of meals. the 8 point I killed last year became sausage nether of us liked it so the dogs ate it. 

I do enjoy the thrill of the hunt but not like I once did. I no longer will sit in a tree all day freezing my butt off hoping to kill a big deer . I threw the 8 point antlers away. no amount of boiling or baking could have made them into a meal

I have never hunted black water so i have no idea. I hunted Jone's swamp for 20 years on motorcycles until it became a dumping ground for stolen cars and now there is more cops than deer


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## PanhandleBob (Mar 16, 2011)

HisName: "my concept of never shooting doe's , results in a lot of doe's , giving me a lot of young deer which fills the freezer for a year [ this year not included ] and eliminates the need to buy red meat."

That is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why Alabama went to a tagging system with antler restrictions.....Alabama DNR went through several years of writing letters to Alabama hunters begging them to kill does, increasing the doe week to 2 weeks and eventually the entire season and still had folks that wouldn't kill a doe, rather should a spike....next thing you know tags and antler restrictions....those of you that don't want the tag and antler restrictions are you own worse enemy....

I saw this in Alabama and I see this very same thing in Florida, private or public land.

There are more deer today in Florida or Alabama than there was in the USA in 1950...not managing this resource and keeping it balanced is poor stewardship if you ask me.

JMHO...


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

was the Auto Insurance companies who were behind the "kill the doe's all season " in Alabama. my brother just gave up his place in a large hunt club because of the overall decline in deer population.
he now hunts private land that he can manage himself and shoots very few doe's

yes , there are still more deer here than in the 50's we each manage what we can in the way we benefit most.
my grandfather raised pigs for the US Government during WW2 . he had a lot of sows and only a couple of boars and the population skyrocketed


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## imkilroy (Oct 27, 2007)

PanhandleBob said:


> HisName: "my concept of never shooting doe's , results in a lot of doe's , giving me a lot of young deer which fills the freezer for a year [ this year not included ] and eliminates the need to buy red meat."
> 
> That is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why Alabama went to a tagging system with antler restrictions.....Alabama DNR went through several years of writing letters to Alabama hunters begging them to kill does, increasing the doe week to 2 weeks and eventually the entire season and still had folks that wouldn't kill a doe, rather should a spike....next thing you know tags and antler restrictions....those of you that don't want the tag and antler restrictions are you own worse enemy....
> 
> ...


I agree with the fact that it is poor management of resources and and poor stewardship in game management, but I think in Florida it falls on the FWC. Florida is stuck on a 1 week doe season. Sure opening up bow season to crossbow's may account for a few more doe being shot, but not to the extent that is needed. Plus management area's do not use doe week. They do however manage to put more deer on the roadways. I am constantly dodging them while driving thru Blackwater.


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

Anyone know that for proper deer management you must harvest does, every biologist will tell you it is the right thing to do and will pollute the gene pool if you don't. Otherwise people who don't take does should have their license revoked and before you can take a buck you must harvest a doe. No arguing, you are misinformed and need to educate yourself if you believe differently...good grief.


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## Grassflatsfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

This thread is like a bad episode of the "View"...gezzz

Here's your $ per pound break down...


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## BOHUNTER1 (Feb 18, 2008)

Man you could scrap those cars for 200 bucks a piece! Thats instant savings on any deer lease fees! If you were my old buddy he would take those cars off that land sell them take the money and spend it on himself then make you pay to have the opportunity to hunt with him!! LOL Grassflats knows where that comes from.....

Just hunt and be happy. Dang, if you went out and killed 33 deer in 33 days then there is an issue. If you shoot 5 deer a year and all are bucks or does who cares, I dont think its gonna matter that you possibly took 2-3 does or bucks more than your management accounts for. I think deer are survivors, they send the dumb ones out first. If one is harvested then next year 1-2 will takes its place. Deer move around. Yeah some stay in an area but they always look for friends and lovers as humans do. 

Biggest thing in any lease or partnership is to be freaking HONEST. If you are just there to hunt pay a fee and move on, if you are there as a partner then you split it all up. If you have a jerk like I had then let them hang the stands, drive the trucks, bring the gear and you get your own room and split nothing with the scumbag. 

I learned a lesson on that. I trusted the wrong person for 25 years. Make sure your on the lease, or you are just a hunter. Job description! Im not hanging your stands!

Steve


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

That Jeff Foxworthy clip is good! Typical of so many hunters... 
Since I happened to own a few offshore boats over the years I know where that is coming from.
I would have to limit out for months on end, if not years, of "foot fishin" before I get my seafood cost to anywhere near $800 per pound.

Brent


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## scbass (Feb 1, 2008)

FrankwT said:


> I would say the locals living on venison all year long are poachers, none of us hunters are starving and between your gun/ammo, license, gas and everything else it would be cheaper to buy meat. I know some leases give away tremendous amounts of meat each year, it is a shame they are not allowed to accept hogs too.
> 
> It is called hunting not killing for a reason.


Let me try to understand this; If you pay your money every year, do your homework, spend countless hours in the woods to find the game an then hunt them as you should (not sitting in a shooting house over corn) and you kill does and bucks of any legal size (12-15 a year) you are a POACHER.


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## FrankwT (Jul 25, 2010)

scbass said:


> Let me try to understand this; If you pay your money every year, do your homework, spend countless hours in the woods to find the game an then hunt them as you should (not sitting in a shooting house over corn) and you kill does and bucks of any legal size (12-15 a year) you are a POACHER.



obviously you misunderstood: Try shooting deer(off season) all year instead of living off venison all year...and there is no reason in the world for someone to take 15 deer a year for themselves...In my humble opinion.


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## scbass (Feb 1, 2008)

FrankwT said:


> obviously you misunderstood: Try shooting deer(off season) all year instead of living off venison all year...and there is no reason in the world for someone to take 15 deer a year for themselves...In my humble opinion.


Well my wife, 2 girls, and my self says different. What my goal is is to save money and eat better meats than what you spend all of the $$$ for. I killed 13 last year and we may have enough left to last until bow season comes in, and I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## PanhandleBob (Mar 16, 2011)

I don't see a problem with legally taken deer no matter how many, as long as the meat doesn't get wasted. Nothing at all wrong with wanting to eat deer over beef every day.


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