# Charter Days-at-Sea-(catch shares) scoping



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

the charter for hire days-at-sea pilot program is going to scoping....in my opinion the days-at-sea prorgam is another name for recrational catch shares... 




Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council Schedules ​​​​The Gulf Council has scheduled scoping workshops around the Gulf of Mexico to get public input on a proposed amendment that examines a days-at-sea pilot program for the red snapper for-hire fishery. Scoping workshops are the first and best opportunity for you to make suggestions or raise issues and concerns before the Council begins developing an amendment. ​
​
​​Issues to be discussed include, but are not limited to, the purpose and need for this amendment and the potential management actions that may be considered. Management actions range from the selection of program participants to the establishment of effort and catch validation methods and criteria for program evaluation.​Eight scoping workshops are scheduled around the Gulf. All workshops begin at 6 pm and conclude at the end of public comment, but no later than 9 pm. The workshop schedule is as follows:​​*March 25, 2013*
Courtyard Marriott
1600 E. Beach Boulevard
Gulfport, MS 39501
*April 1, 2013*
Hilton Galveston Island
5400 Seawall Boulevard
Galveston Island, TX 77551
*March 26, 2013*
Fairfield Inn & Suites
3111 Loop Road
Orange Beach, AL 36561

*March 27, 2013*
Destin Community Center 
101 Stahlman Avenue
Destin, FL 32541

Courtyard Marriott
3250 US 41 North
Naples, FL 34103
*April 2, 2013*
Hilton St. Petersburg Carillon Park
950 Lake Carillon Drive
St. Petersburg, FL 33716

Hilton Garden Inn
6717 S. Padre Island Drive
Corpus Christi, TX 78412
*
April 3, 2013*
Crowne Plaza New Orleans 
2829 Williams Boulevard
Kenner, LA 70062

Copies of the scoping document and other related materials will be available two weeks prior to the first scoping meeting and can be obtained by calling 813-348-1630 or can be downloaded from the Council's website at http://www.gulfcouncil.org/fishery_management_plans/scoping-thru-implementation.php.​​These meetings are physically accessible to people with disabilities. Requests for sign language interpretation or other auxiliary aids should be directed to Kathy Pereira at least five working days prior to the meeting.​​*About Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council*
The Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council is one of eight regional Fishery Management Councils established by the Fishery Conservation and Management Act of 1976. The Council prepares fishery management plans, which are designed to manage fishery resources within the 
200-mile limit of the Gulf of Mexico.


----------



## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Ill be at the Destin meeting


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Program Design​

The Panel used the design features and objectives outlined in the agenda as a guideline to develop a Days at Sea Pilot Program. Some features overlapped while others were difficult to address at this stage in the program design. Key themes from the discussion and the Panel’s motions are presented below. 

Program Duration
The discussion primarily focused on whether the program duration should be for one or two years. Concerns were expressed that if the duration was too short, the results may not reflect accurately whether or not the program was useful, as such programs usually involve a period of acclimation during which the parameters for evaluation may not accurately reflect success or failure should the experiment be given more time . On the other hand, if the timeline was too long, its ultimate implementation might come too late to help the industry effectively. 

*Motion: That the pilot program would have a duration of one year with the option for a second year after review. (Motion carried.)*


Registration and selection of participating vessels
Dave Donaldson discussed approximate sample sizes of vessels that would be necessary to provide statistically valid results as to the viability of the program at the evaluation stage. He noted that a sample of at least 10% of the population typically participated in several pilot programs. This raised issues including (1) how to define the population of participants (only those who hold a charter for-hire permit, or to include those who also possess commercial permits, or include headboats), (2) how to represent geographical areas should voluntary participation be distributed unevenly, and (3) the weaknesses of an analysis based on volunteer participants only. To this point, it was noted that it would be difficult to require participation in a pilot program. 

*Motion: The pilot program would be restricted to vessels that hold a federal charter for-hire reef fish permit. (Motion carried with one opposed.)*

*Motion: That the participants be a statistically valid sample greater than or equal to 10% of the federally permitted charterboat fleet representative of the geographic range and of vessel capacity and business models in the red snapper fishery. The sample will be drawn from a pool of volunteers. (Motion carried.)*

Proportion of the Recreational Quota Assigned to the Pilot
Panelists found this topic difficult to discuss before talking about the number of days at sea that would be designated to program participants. While a panelist noted that the quota assigned to the program should be proportional to the program participants’ past landings, it was pointed out that there are no reliable catch history data for charter for-hire vessels. Also, Panelists recognized that the number of days at sea would need to restrict effort compared to the regular recreational season, because program participants would be able to maximize their effort given the flexibility of planning their days at sea. Ultimately, the Panel decided that the proportion of the recreational quota assigned to the pilot would be determined by the design of the pilot – the statistically valid sample representative of vessel capacity and geographic area. 

Number of Days at Sea per Participating Vessel
This discussion focused on how effort would be measured in the program. Each of the two main ideas explored by the Panel offered both pros and cons: 

(1) _Vessel Trips_ (in full day or half day values). This is the simplest interpretation of ‘days at sea’ where one day equals a single trip, regardless of the number of anglers. Effort creep is more likely as captains tend to use days only with maximum passenger capacity.
(2) _Angler Days._ This approach counts the number of anglers aboard each trip and is more complicated to monitor and enforce (especially if relying on self-reporting). Effort creep is less likely as captains are not encouraged to maximize passenger capacity on each trip. Dave Donaldson noted that recreational data collection is based on angler days, but added that there are benefits and drawbacks to this approach.

Further discussion on these options raised the following issues:
· Variation in passenger capacity of participant vessels. 
· Enforcement issues should be considered but still accommodate flexibility for program participants. 
· The effort metric should be fair to participants across the Gulf , recognizing that Texas charterboats generally make one trip per day while Alabama charterboats can make two or three trips per day. 
· Effort creep must be factored into computing the days at sea for participating vessels. This refers to program participants only using their allotted days at sea when they could maximize the use of that day. As Nick Farmer pointed out, in computing the number of days at sea per vessel, the assumption would be made that participants would only use a day at sea when their boat is at maximum capacity and they have the possibility to limit out. Because the goal of a charter for-hire participating vessel would be to take as many trips as possible, by extension, maximum effort must be assumed. 

*Motion: That one day at sea be defined as a trip where red snapper is declared to be harvested. (Motion carried.)*

*Amendment: That the effort metric for the pilot program be angler days. (Amendment failed due to a tie.)*
Ultimately, the Panel did not agree on which effort metric should be used for the program. The Panel returned to the issue at the end of the meeting (see below).

Data reporting requirements and equipment needs & Monitoring and enforcement
Panelists discussed data reporting and equipment needs alongside issues of monitoring and enforcement. A major theme in this discussion concerned finding a balance between maintaining privacy for businesses and customers and the need for enforcement mechanisms that would be difficult to circumvent. The discussion focused on two tools for data reporting and program enforcement. 

(1) _iSnapper_: Several panelists were familiar with the iSnapper application used to collect charter for-hire data during the 2011 red snapper recreational fishing season. Other panelists asked about the data that were collected, where the data went (Gulf States Marine Fisheries Commission), and who is using it. 
· Pros: can collect data from anglers, socio-economics and angler satisfaction data fields could be added, useful for program evaluation.
· Cons: device can be turned off by operator; relies on honest and accurate self-reporting.

(2) _VMS:_ Some panelists have issues with using VMS, principally articulated as cost, an inherent distrust in government, and a fear of having fishing spots stolen. Those opposed to the use of VMS felt that self-policing would be sufficient. One member noted that he had no room on his vessel to put additional hardware. Those supporting use of VMS felt it was mandatory to enforce compliance, with one Panelist noting that the freedom and flexibility that would be granted with the program required responsibility. He argued that the pilot program was an opportunity for charter for-hire captains to fish outside of the recreational season and with that benefit, they should expect a tradeoff and be willing to provide data on the experience.
· Pros: better for monitoring and enforcement than iSnapper.
· Cons: resistance to government monitoring of location.


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*Motion: To recommend to the Council that iSnapper be the preferred mechanism for data collection, and that the required data include the fields currently reported in iSnapper. (Motion carried.)*

*Motion: To request that the Council develop socioeconomic metrics and reporting requirements to evaluate pilot success in achieving the objectives, including passenger anglers’ evaluation of the pilot program. (Motion carried.)*

*Motion: To participate in the pilot program, the vessel must have a transponder or VMS to verify vessel activity. (Motion carried with two opposed.)*

*Motion: That port samplers and/or observers be utilized to verify catch and discard data regarding the trip. (Motion carried.)*
This motion raised the issue of observers affecting the compliance of program participants. Dave Donaldson noted that observers are used for collecting data on discards rather than enforcement. 

Other enforcement issues
Another issue concerned how to distinguish trips for red snapper (included in the program) versus other charter trips conducted by program participants, especially during the open recreational season. Would it be possible to prohibit program participants from fishing for red snapper during the open season unless they utilize their allotted days at sea? Panelists recognized that they would need a way for law enforcement to know if program participants were going on a red snapper trip; they could not rely on honest self-reporting. Furthermore, the program needs to be designed in such a way that prevents participants from cheating the system. 
One panelist pointed out that charter captains who do not want VMS on their boat would not likely volunteer to participate. 

In discussing how to handle issues of cheating by program participants, the Panel felt restricted in not knowing the legality of imposing penalties within a pilot program when the program exists outside of regulatory statutes. Panelists also discussed what to do about program participants who want to leave the program before the start of that year’s open recreational season. 

*Motion: That legal counsel define penalties for noncompliance in the days at sea program to be severe enough to discourage reoccurrences. (Motion carried.)*

Initial start-up costs and maintenance fees
Based on previous pilot programs, Dave Donaldson indicated that initial start-up costs could approximate $1,000 per vessel. The idea behind the following motion was to pursue funds for program expenses from grant money set aside by BP. 

*Substitute motion: To request that the Council propose all components of the pilot days at-sea program for funding as an early restoration project. (Substitute motion carried with one opposed.)*


Evaluation of the pilot program
Panelists discussed how the pilot program would be evaluated and the metrics needed for evaluation. Panelists returned to the objectives identified at the last Panel meeting for use in identifying what a successful pilot program would look like. Then, they discussed how metrics could be derived to measure the objectives, focusing on being able to evaluate the program with the data collected during the pilot program. There was concern that if the program evaluation goals were defined narrowly, or if all goals were not met completely, the entire program would be declared a failure rather than examining the parts that worked and identifying ways to improve the program for implementation. Another issue raised concerned the necessity to have a control group in order to measure program success. Assane Diagne noted that an initial sample could be selected from eligible participants to provide for a control group. The panel ultimately arrived at the following list:

Criteria for evaluating success of pilot program:
· % of allowable days at sea fished compared to % of number of days fished during open season by geographic and vessel capacity strata
· The pilot sub-sector does not exceed specified mortality target for pilot (both harvest and discards)
· Increase of profitability per unit of effort (dependent on control group)
· Majority of pilot participants have acceptable level of satisfaction
· Pilot data reported in real time and available electronically
· Data verification and analysis would follow in 1 to 2 months
· Improved returns on expenses for red snapper trips in each strata: by geographic region, vessel capacity, etc.
· Technology is scalable. Law enforcement is scalable. Data analysis is scalable.
· Very high percentage of participants are compliant with requirements
· Start-up and equipment costs for pilot participants are cost effective
· Majority of anglers surveyed have acceptable levels of satisfaction

Additional motions
The Panel returned to some issues previously tabled and passed the following motions. The question of how to determine how much quota could be designated to the program should be determined after the design of the pilot is further along and the size of a statistically valid sample is determined. 

*Motion: To have the days at sea charter for-hire pilot program up and running as of June 1, 2012. (Motion carried.)*

*Motion: To request that the allocation of the for-hire pilot program come from the recreational sector. (Motion carried with one opposed.)*

*Motion: That the pilot program participants are reflective of the makeup of the existing federally permitted charter for-hire sector by percentages of six-pack and multi-passenger vessels. (Motion carried.)*
The preceding motion followed a discussion on how to address the diversity of charter for-hire operators throughout the Gulf of Mexico. There were differing opinions whether to lump all vessels together under the program or to stratify the sample in ways to proportionally include vessels of differing passenger capacities, in order to evaluate the program’s objectives accordingly. There was concern as to whether there would be sufficient volunteers across stratified groups. This motion was similar to and consistent with an earlier motion on the selection of participating vessels. 

*Motion: That the days at sea pilot program will have equal distribution of red snapper fishing days to participants regardless of passenger capacity of the vessels. (Motion carried with one opposed.)*
The preceding motionaddressed the issue raised earlier concerning whether angler days or vessel trips should be used as the effort metric for days at sea. However, based on a lack of data concerning landings history, the Panel found it difficult to determine the number of days that could be available to program participants and the proportion of quota that would be earmarked to the program. 

The meeting adjourned at 4 p.m.


----------



## submariner (Oct 2, 2007)

thks for the info hard to tell what it will mean in the end


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Based on the results of the pilot program work we could see the program move from the pilot phase to the reality phase, where the pounds of red snapper recrational allocation would be split annually in some percentage format between federally permitted gulf charter boats and state permitted charter boats /private recreational fisherman. 

Charter boats with allocated poundage could allow their customers to fish for and keep red snapper any day of the year they choose (oustide the established federal recreational snapper season). 

There are arguments on all sides of this issue for and against, but the problem I have with the pilot/plan is why should a charter boat customer have the right to catch and keep a red snapper on a day when i cannot do so from my own boat. 

We are both recreational fisherman right?


----------



## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

Should be a fun meeting!


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

@Mark, I believe you will see soon that everyone else will have the same chance at something like this, like it or not its coming, full accountability measures for everyone that fishes in the gulf. 27 day "season" just doesn't work for anyone the 5 year projection is even worse. There HAS to be a better fish management plan, the one we have right now isn't working, its broke. I for one am not for a days at sea program at all, it was just the first thing that was thought up, back when we had a 65 day season. Now we just want to be able to fish a set number of fish anytime we want. We are finding out with tourist, we don't need even one fish per person to sell trips, most of them have no way of even keeping any fish and I know a bunch goes to waste. My freezer was full last year with red snapper and I did not catch a one of them, they were all given to us by our charters. On these short trips these days if we could just keep a few all year long would be way better than catching 200 pounds a day for one month, hell with the ability to run two trips a day Im catching more like 400 pounds a day and with two boats more like 700 pounds a day. So as it was last year being able to fish 44 days we caught a lot of fish, I would be happy with half of that amount if I could spread it out through out the year. The IFQ pilot program has not even been drawn up yet so were looking at a couple of years for that to be even talked about I would guess. I would go as far to say by the time anything was set in stone, IF IT EVER IS, the guys that are still in business will not be depending on red snapper at all. By that time any program will be just fine, tags, days at sea, angler days, or IFQ. Everything is in the works now for the rest of the recreational fisherman I would say in a couple of years, you will be talking about different ideas for the private boat owner and guide boat.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

According to the Sector Separation Scoping Document, cfh boats accounted for about 19% of the red snapper landings and the private recs accounted for about 67%. 

Soooo, the Plan here is to keep those 67% of the fishermen on the docks so that the 19% can pay to go fishing on a for-profit boat, all year long? Hardly a fair and equitable plan as required by the law, now is it? 

Nobody begrudges charter fishermen from taking their customers fishing, but the large majority of Gulf fishermen do resent being shut out of the fishery for the sake of individuals/corporations being able to make profits on catch share ownership/leasing.

Anyone else notice how these EDF-funded captains such as Ard don't want to address the REAL problems and want to stay the course with status quo management? Don't you think getting REAL assessment numbers on the amount of fish swimming in the water combined with REAL numbers on the amount of fishermen is a PREREQUISITE to ANY plan moving forward?

What you guys are doing is wanting to push ANY plan that gives you ownership of our Public Trust Resource FIRST, then we can take a look to see if that was viable or not LATER. 

Not the best course of action for our Gulf fisheries, Gulf fishermen, or Gulf communities.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


----------



## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> There are arguments on all sides of this issue for and against, but the problem I have with the pilot/plan is why should a charter boat customer have the right to catch and keep a red snapper on a day when i cannot do so from my own boat.
> 
> We are both recreational fisherman right?


This is my biggest complaint and why I am against any type of seperation. A charter boat is a taxi. Plain and simple. Their service is to get people on the water that cannot get on the water. Just as a person takes a taxi when they don't have a car available. 

The person on the boat is no different than myself or any other recreational fisherman. When you create special classes of people that can gain access to a "PUBLIC" resource, IT'S WRONG. If I want to catch and keep RS, I should not have to go pay a taxi service to do it. If a person comes from out of town to fish here, they pay for a taxi service to get them on the water. All fine and dandy. But you cannot give that person more rights just because they paid a person to get them on the water.

That would be like me being able to go shoot elk out of season just because we don't have elk here. The SOS people claim that they provide fish to those that can't/don't live here and that the resource belongs to everyone in the country. Well then they should be with us to fight the crazy Feds. They are basically trying to create a special circumstance for themselves and their customers outside of the current law. This is politics at it's finest. If we don't like a law, let's make exceptions for certain people instead of changing the law for the better of ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Hilton do you really think that we believe that this and this alone is going to fix the problem? We are all for better data, which is in the plans to be active first, starting this year many members of the OBFA are starting voluntary i-snapper on there boats because we know this is the best way for a charter boat of account for there day, and we are deciding this is what we want. Second, I for one will be lobbying hard for better wording of the M/S act when it gets reauthorized, that will help us all out. Third, I have a letter in my hand from Senator Shelby thanking me for coming to his office to talk about fishery issues, one of which was the stock assessment. So really your showing you don't know me and you have no clue what I am all about. Do you really think that CFA is the only organization I am a member of? Im a member of NACO also, if they actually had ANY thing going to help the CFH in the gulf I would be on board, but at this time they don't. As slow as everything moves all issues have to be working at the same time to ever get anywhere, and yes its in the works that the DATA is coming first, there already has been a two year pilot on I-snapper. 
Don't worry guys, effort cap, better data and accountability is coming to the recreational side, there is no way around it. We the CFH side are being proactive and designing ours to fit our needs, I would suggest you do the same to fit yours, instead of sitting on your computer and bitching about what we are doing or waiting on RFA or CCA to do it for you. Those two organizations are lobby groups that make there living off of confusion and conflict, they don't make there living on the water, they need this to drag out as long as possible.


----------



## hsiF deR (Oct 4, 2009)

I would love to see all of the captains supporting catch shares(or any derivation) go out of business. 

The elite'ist(sp) mentality just rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes Capt. Ard - I DO have a clue.

HERE'S WHY YOU WENT TO WASHINGTON D.C. CAPT. ARD - STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH - I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THERE ABOUT "THIS ISSUE OF BAD DATA AND BAD SCIENCE" BUT I SEE PLENTY ABOUT PROMOTING THE IMPLEMENTATION AND FUNDING OF CATCH SHARES. EDF PAID YOUR WAY AS WELL AS THE REST OF THOSE USEFUL IDIOTS TO PUSH THEIR CATCH SHARE AGENDA.


February 13, 2013

Contact: 
For Environmental Defense Fund: Matt Smelser, [email protected], 512.731.3023 
For Chef Rick Moonen: Ken Langdon, [email protected], 773.234.2865 


(Washington, D.C. February 13, 2013) – More than one hundred fishermen, chefs and seafood distributors from around the country are traveling to the nation’s capital today to ask members of Congress to give them the tools they need – namely to give fishermen the ability to catch fish sustainably through a fishery management tool called catch shares.
Teams of fishermen and chefs will meet with their members of Congress and ask them to fully fund catch share programs. Catch shares help eliminate overfishing and restore fish stocks by dividing the total scientifically approved allowable catch among the fishermen and ending short seasons and derbies. Catch shares have been proven to recover fish populations, increase compliance with catch limits, reduce waste, stabilize revenue and increase business efficiency. 
More than 65% of all fish landed in United States federal waters are landed under a catch share fishing program providing a healthy ecosystem, fishing jobs, and a consistent supply of sustainable seafood.
Recently, catch shares have been under fire by some in Congress and special interests who have sought to take the authority to implement the tool out of the hands of local fishery managers. 
The group of chefs is being led by Chef Rick Moonen, who is delivering a letter supporting catch shares management signed by notable chefs from around the country. Moonen has been a tireless advocate for sustainable fishing.
“Embracing the idea of serving my customers sustainable seafood has been a primary focus over the past 25 years of my professional career as a chef,”said Rick Moonen, chef/owner of rm seafood in Las Vegas. "Catch share programs naturally create an incentive for environmental preservation and species stewardship by the fishermen who rely on their health to succeed. Restaurants will then get to experience a more consistent supply of properly handled fish, more stable prices, longer seasons and more species diversity. Most importantly we need to provide the fishermen with the tools they need, like fully funded catch share programs.”
Currently, more than 87 percent of the world’s fisheries are overfished, and much of the fish consumed in the United States – roughly 90 percent – is imported. A recent survey by the National Restaurant Association found that fresh, local seafood is becoming increasingly important to consumers.
In their letter, the chefs say that catch shares have a proven track record of restoring fisheries and creating valuable sources of locally-caught sustainable seafood in the United States. 
“Catch shares allow us to better utilize the fishery. We can fish year-round, earn higher prices for what we catch and provide consumers with a quality product,” said John Schmidt, a commercial fisherman from Palm Harbor, Florida. “Congress needs to know that many fishermen strongly support catch share management. And the reason we do so is because catch shares work. Congress needs to keep catch shares on the table and leave management decision to regional fishery management councils.”
Environmental Defense Fund (EDF) is committed to ending overfishing and is currently working with fishermen and fishery managers around the United States and the world to implement catch shares. “EDF believes that catch shares offer a solution that not only ensures the long-term sustainability of our oceans’ fisheries, but can help to preserve the business and sport of fishing for future generations,” said Matt Rand, Senior Campaigns Director for EDF’s Oceans Program. 
Fishermen and chefs will meet all day Wednesday on Capitol Hill and then gather to recognize Sen. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Rep. Chellie Pingree of Maine’s First Congressional District as “Fishing Families Champions” for their service in pursuit of responsible management of our nation’s fisheries and their tireless advocacy for fishermen.


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

@Tom Ard,

I believe in your private meeting with Senator Shelby as his constituent you covered all bases with him including better stock assessment science. 

I also respect you continuing to post on the forum regarding your position on various topics. Often times I cannot agree with you, but I give you props for continuing to post and take the slings and arrows.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

When I went to D.C. I told the guys from CFA that I was going to talk about what "I" thought was important, and that probably it would be the last time EDF would ever sponsor me on any trip. The promised me that it wasn't going to be like that and to just come have a good time and speak freely. I was very surprised how the whole thing was ran, basically we were there to talk about sustainable, and accountable fisheries. I felt as ease and just spoke my mind. Never once was I told what to say or how to say it. We were broken into groups not all from the same port but we all had the same issues, some a little different than others. All the appointments were made for us in advance and we rolled thru the halls of Congress with ease. I could not have done that on my on. Yes there was talk about CFH fish management plans, but also talk about the State of Alabama new 3 mile reef zone, which we are getting 276 concrete pyramids put down, we talked about regional management, and stock assessment, we talked about counting fish on reefs, we talked about ending the "idle iron" government waste project, we talked fish tags, we talked about catch and release,(pros and cons), we answered many, questions about fishery issues along the coast. Not one time did we bad mouth any user group, commercial or recreational, we talked about state noncompliance, we talked about the reauthorization of the M/S act. Mainly we talked about the mess we are in down here, and how there has to be some relief somewhere in the future for us. You see Hilton you really don't have a clue, you just have your hard headed beliefs about what you think myself and many in the CFH are all about. I will put it to you this way EDF is a train for us we ride it to get to places we need to be and when we are done, we get off. They got me in the offices to talk to the rule makers themselves. On the issue of sustainable fisheries we are on the same page at this moment. I feel the whole thing went really well and will go back with them in a minute to do it again, and probably will when the reauthorization stuffs starts to heat up, might have to do that on my dime, if we don't see eye to eye but I will.


----------



## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Hilton do you really think that we believe that this and this alone is going to fix the problem? We are all for better data, which is in the plans to be active first, starting this year many members of the OBFA are starting voluntary i-snapper on there boats because we know this is the best way for a charter boat of account for there day, and we are deciding this is what we want. Second, I for one will be lobbying hard for better wording of the M/S act when it gets reauthorized, that will help us all out. Third, I have a letter in my hand from Senator Shelby thanking me for coming to his office to talk about fishery issues, one of which was the stock assessment. So really your showing you don't know me and you have no clue what I am all about. Do you really think that CFA is the only organization I am a member of? Im a member of NACO also, if they actually had ANY thing going to help the CFH in the gulf I would be on board, but at this time they don't. As slow as everything moves all issues have to be working at the same time to ever get anywhere, and yes its in the works that the DATA is coming first, there already has been a two year pilot on I-snapper.
> Don't worry guys, effort cap, better data and accountability is coming to the recreational side, there is no way around it. We the CFH side are being proactive and designing ours to fit our needs, I would suggest you do the same to fit yours, instead of sitting on your computer and bitching about what we are doing or waiting on RFA or CCA to do it for you. Those two organizations are lobby groups that make there living off of confusion and conflict, they don't make there living on the water, they need this to drag out as long as possible.



You went to D.C. with the "Environmental Defense Fund".........I think that tells us about all we need to know.

You think you're the one using them to push your agenda, I'm afraid it's the other way around...


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Whatever Matt, your entitled to your opinion.


----------



## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Whatever Matt, your entitled to your opinion.


Tom I understand you guys are desperate to save your business, but do you really not see what EDF is all about? I just cannot believe that as educated as you guys are on the topic that you really believe EDF has your best interest in mind...


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Jon I'm not disparate to save my business, my business is thriving. We are trying to find better, smarter ways in which to do business. Spreading out our days or having some sort of IFQ, having the flexibility for our fishery is what we are all about. A "season" on any fish just don't make good sense to us. We all should have the ability to fish when we want to and not when they tell us we can. We can achieve this through accountability measures and not over fishing our given TAC. There are many battles to fight along with management issues, were going after all of them.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

*EDF PROGRESS REPORT
*
Nothing has changed in regards to the Plan they have laid out - these captains such as Ard should just stand up and say; "We represent The Environmental Defense Fund", but they don't. They take their money and their guidance yet portray themselves as an independent group of fishermen when nothing could be further from the* TRUTH*.

Excerpts from the EDF Progress Report;

"...In June, at our urging, the Gulf Council established a new advisory panel to explore a catch share plan for all remaining reef fish, including three subgroups: commercial, recreational for-hire and private anglers. * EDF and key allies have secured voting positions on the panel.* We expect that the commercial sub-group will easily move forward with a plan to add all remaining reef fish (19 more species in total, including amberjack and gray triggerfish) into the existing IFQ program. *The for-hire and private angler sub-groups will explore catch share and accountability measures for reef fish, including red snapper and grouper.* The recreational discussions will undoubtedly be long, heated and challenging. *Part of their charge is to discuss intersector trading.*

The work we are doing with a core group of for-hire recreational fishermen, *whose movement we helped develop and continue to support*, called SOS (Save Our Sector), *will be important to continue to move catch shares forward in the for-hire sector of the recreational red snapper fishery.* SOS now has over 200 supporters across all five Gulf states. This membership, which includes boat owners and crew members, reflects a significant portion of the 1,100 licenses in the for-hire fleet.* The group’s work was a key factor in the Gulf Council’s October decision to consider separation of the recreational sector into for-hire and private angler sectors *in the generic Annual Catch Limit/Accountability Measures amendment, which will be subject to public hearings in either December or January and likely voted on next summer. *The amendment will form the foundation for a for-hire IFQ and harvest tags for private anglers.*

To demonstrate that vessel monitoring systems and electronic logbooks can work in for-hire recreational fisheries and provide the accountability necessary for catch shares, EDF is conducting a two-year pilot project with SOS (iSnapper). Internal discussions with NMFS officials indicate strong agency support for the SOS management plan, which includes use of electronic logbooks, and is resulting in meetings and dialogue among the group, NMFS officials and key members of Congress. While working with key for-hire leadership to develop an IFQ concept design for-hire catch share, *we funded and worked with SOS leadership* to launch an SOS web site to serve as a consistent source of information for interested parties.

*EDF continues to encourage and support fishermen who provide the leadership to advance catch shares. The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders' Alliance, which we helped create, continues to expand its membership of commercial and for-hire fishermen. *Its executive director and members are serving on federal advisory panels, *have met with members of Congress*, and are engaged in helping guide other EDF Oceans regions through challenges.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

I will give it to you Hilton, your a paste and click master.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

As long as it gets the message out, does it really matter if I type it one letter at a time?


----------



## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

What the CFH guys like you Ard, don't understand, is that you are all being used as pawns, by EDF and others, to push all of the agendas. You will not benefit from all of this, multi million dollar commercial fishing companies will. It all comes down to simple math really, put the fish in the GOM into catch shares and NONE of us will benefit. I don't care if your business is thriving or not, you and the rest of the CFA/EDF minions will get a token kiss on the head, and nothing more... You won't and don't have near enough money or clout. There is the other side of it it that it will become an all out war between all of the idiots that pushed this stuff in the first place...


----------



## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for the input Capt. Hilton


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

The message is just old. Now theres over %85 of Texas permit holders, %90 of Orange Beach permit holders, %75 of Destin permit holders, and still only %35 of PC permit holders ready for there on FMP, in the charter for hire industry. Thats way more people than the 200, your paste and click message. That message seems to be a little out dated. I would venture to say that with-in two years over %75 of all "Active" permit holders will be all for there on Fish Management Plan. Referendum Vote


----------



## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

So which one is it Tom??? Is your business *thriving, *or are you hurting so bad you can't pay your bills or afford to shop at every store in orange beach that you have an account in?? 

So you are either so desperate you are willing to sleep with the devil, or you are so greedy you want even more of the pie than what you already have with a _*thriving*_ business?? And you want people here to trust what you say??



Fairwaterfishing said:


> I promise you buddy I have no funds for any payoffs. I don't know many if any charter captains that have much extra left to pay anybody, if you don't believe me just ask about every store in Orange Beach that I have an account in.





Fairwaterfishing said:


> Jon I'm not disparate to save my business, my business is thriving.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*corruption at it's finest*

Let's get this straight you buy a permit and place a moratorium on them so no one else can get one then complain and moan until the federal government gives you your very own little cach of fish so you Don't have any competion. Answer this fair-weather is your last name Saprano werent you guys in the garbage business up in Jersey? I mean come on manyou are going to exploit a natural resource for your own personal gain and then turn around in the same statement and claim to be in favor of better fisheries management really you don't think we caught that?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Jon its March, that was posted in Feb. I have not had a paycheck since October. I hunted Kansas, Kentucky, was in two hunting clubs in Mississippi, and One in Alabama, went on two family vacations. Yea I have a hunting problem and it sometimes effects my checkbook. The spring time with two boat haul outs, engine maintenance, tackle maintenance, topside boat maintenance, and coast guard inspection maintenance, spent a smooth grand at Tommys sale today, doing my best keeping my helpers lights on with a little extra on the side, yea the springtime money is a little tight. Every year for the last 20 I have went into the spring in the hole a little bit, sometimes I'm in the hole a bunch, this year just a little bit. The stores that I have accounts know this and I have always paid my bills so they have no problem with it. I have 20 trips booked in March going to start catching up, pretty much same as the last 20 years, I catch up in the spring and start saving during the summer. I still have no money for any payoffs, I drink and hunt way too much for that.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

billin said:


> Let's get this straight you buy a permit and place a moratorium on them so no one else can get one then complain and moan until the federal government gives you your very own little cach of fish so you Don't have any competion. Answer this fair-weather is your last name Saprano werent you guys in the garbage business up in Jersey? I mean come on manyou are going to exploit a natural resource for your own personal gain and then turn around in the same statement and claim to be in favor of better fisheries management really you don't think we caught that?



I did not place a moratorium on anything. We were capped by the federal government. The same way they will soon be capping y'all, just wait and see. I have never been a fan at all of any moratorium and somewhere Im on record saying that at a gulf council meeting.


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

For those that have not read this article. Read the comments posted to the right side of this article. It doesn't sound like those catch shares are working out to well for NOAA now that people are catching on to what it's really all about.

http://www.gloucestertimes.com/fishing/x1525015376/Fed-IG-auditing-NOAA-policies


----------



## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Jon its March, that was posted in Feb. I have not had a paycheck since October. I hunted Kansas, Kentucky, was in two hunting clubs in Mississippi, and One in Alabama, went on two family vacations.


Good on ya Tom...and here I am working two jobs to pay my bills while hoping that my son will continue to be able to catch red snapper with me on my boat without having to pay to go on a charter boat or settle for catching white snapper while watching you keep a load of Red Snapper.... With all that money you make you still want to take from the private boat guys? So it does boil down to greed? 

BTW, you won't convince anyone here that you did not try to make it out like you were going bankrupt in your first quote, then you are a thriving business owner in your next post.... keep up with your lies, it makes for better conversation :thumbsup:


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

What ever Capt. maybe you should have stayed in college.


----------



## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Whatever Matt, your entitled to your opinion.


Can you please tell me why I should pay you as a taxi to go catch a fish when I can't do it myself on my own boat. Please answer that for me!!!!! I have yet to have any charter captain on the face of the planet give me an answer that remotely makes sense to a logical person. Take fish stocks out of the equation? If the fish is open to recreational fishing at all, why should I as a recreational fisherman have to pay you if I want to go catch a red snapper? Am I not a recreational fisherman on your boat?

You can't use the whole argument that it's because you make a living doing it. There were plenty of people that made a living hunting buffalo in our past. Guess what, there are no more commercial buffalo hunters. You see, it's not about the sustainment of the resource. It's to make a minority of people rich off of a "public" resource. Because if it was about sustainment, you would already be out of a job. It's sustainment of a resource to make people rich off of it and to drive out the competition that also uses that resource. Meaning rec fishermen. 

Catch shares in the north east have all but wiped out every little family fisherman and made a minority of fishermen rich. If you think for one second that you will not become that little man and get driven out anyway, well, good luck with that. EDF and others are going to scew you over after they are done using you to get to their end game.:thumbsup:


----------



## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> What ever Capt. maybe you should have stayed in college.


:thumbup: Doesn't take a college degree to figure out the obvious..


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Telum Pisces said:


> Can you please tell me why I should pay you as a taxi to go catch a fish when I can't do it myself on my own boat. Please answer that for me!!!!! I have yet to have any charter captain on the face of the planet give me an answer that remotely makes sense to a logical person. Take fish stocks out of the equation? If the fish is open to recreational fishing at all, why should I as a recreational fisherman have to pay you if I want to go catch a red snapper? Am I not a recreational fisherman on your boat?
> 
> You can't use the whole argument that it's because you make a living doing it. There were plenty of people that made a living hunting buffalo in our past. Guess what, there are no more commercial buffalo hunters. You see, it's not about the sustainment of the resource. It's to make a minority of people rich off of a "public" resource. Because if it was about sustainment, you would already be out of a job. It's sustainment of a resource to make people rich off of it and to drive out the competition that also uses that resource. Meaning rec fishermen.
> 
> Catch shares in the north east have all but wiped out every little family fisherman and made a minority of fishermen rich. If you think for one second that you will not become that little man and get driven out anyway, well, good luck with that. EDF and others are going to scew you over after they are done using you to get to their end game.:thumbsup:



Can you tell me why your still holding on to a management system that has us fishing such short seasons. Basically were asking for tags to use anytime we want, if I had a recreational boat that is what I would want so I could fish anytime I wanted or some other system that allowed me to fish my boat anytime I wanted. Why isn't the true recreational person looking for any ways to fish federal waters in a different way?

Well If what we are doing puts us out of business, that will be on us, you guys will have your wish and all CFH will be gone. I guess then I could just go get a private boat gig and get a paycheck every friday.


----------



## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Can you tell me why your still holding on to a management system that has us fishing such short seasons. Basically were asking for tags to use anytime we want, if I had a recreational boat that is what I would want so I could fish anytime I wanted or some other system that allowed me to fish my boat anytime I wanted. Why isn't the true recreational person looking for any ways to fish federal waters in a different way?
> 
> Well If what we are doing puts us out of business, that will be on us, you guys will have your wish and all CFH will be gone. I guess then I could just go get a private boat gig and get a paycheck every friday.


Again, no answer to my question. Why is that such a hard answer to give??????? 

Why are you fighting to become a part of the system that will eventually throw you out with the garbage. All that's going to happen is some bigger operation will come in and offer to purchase your catch share. And you seeing dollar signs will gladly get out. But it's not going to be enough to retire on. So guess what, you'll have to get another job. And then the system will pan out just like those pulling the strings want it too. A few people WILL become rich off this scheme. Will you be a part of it, more than likely not. So good luck. If you wanted to stay fishing as a job, you would band together and fix the problem at the top, vs trying to get on a ship where the captain will make you walk the plank eventually.

And why should we try to make a better accountability system when the snapper are doing just fine. It's about the fish right? If the fish are fine, why change?????? Unless you believe their crazy idea that RS are endangered. I'll tell you why they want accountability. They want control. It's something that they don't have control of right now. IF they don't have control over it, they can't exploit it or make money off of it.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Can you please tell me why I should pay you as a taxi to go catch a fish when I can't do it myself on my own boat. Please answer that for me!!!!!

answer is, by the time this goes thru, years down the road, you will have the same thing, get it. Whats going on right now with the seasons like they are, there probably on the way out. Understand nothing is going to happen anytime soon, even if a pilot program goes in its for %10 of the user group. I would say by the time things change for us they will also be changing for you. Im just doing my best to be a part of the process instead of just letting it happen me.


----------



## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

I don't think any of us are trying to hold on to the MISMANAGEMENTsystem we have in place. Ard, you and your EDF/CFA ilk are the ones reponsible for our shorter seasons, and GREED is at the heart of it, period. You try to spin stuff, and forget what you say and when... Get off the bottle, quit drinking the kool-aid, and maybe when you are sober, things will be different.


----------



## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

I bet if the 10% of the CFH guys in the Pilot Program were unable to charge people to fish. and/or sell their fish, all hell would break loose and nobody would want any part of it... Chop logic


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Catch shares is nothing more than a scheme to steal the resources out from under us. It has absolutely nothing to do with accountability of fish. Just read the article that Tom Hilton posted. It’s all about the billions of dollars that can be made off the fisheries. When Chef’s start going to DC to lobby for catch shares it don’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. 
It goes back to what I posted several days ago. We have got to get our legislators attention and get a bill passed to stop outside funding and grants to NOAA. All this outside funding is doing is lining the pockets and pushing agenda to sale out our resources in the name of conservation by NOAA.


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Anybody got a line in to rubio's office to a staff rep in pensacola that is willing to listen?


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Mark you need to fax letters . Print these articles that I am posting and fax along with your statement so they can see what has happened in the North East with catch shares.

Fairwater you should be reading these articles here is another as to what is happening with these catch shares again read comments off to the side of article.

http://www.gloucestertimes.com/fishing/x1503760647/NOAA-to-try-to-cover-monitor-costs


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

The LaJess II said:


> Mark you need to fax letters . Print these articles that I am posting and fax along with your statement so they can see what has happened in the North East with catch shares.
> 
> Fairwater you should be reading these articles here is another as to what is happening with these catch shares again read comments off to the side of article.
> 
> http://www.gloucestertimes.com/fishing/x1503760647/NOAA-to-try-to-cover-monitor-costs


Yea I read the articles about that commercial catch share deal up there, looks like the whole mess was not thought out very well. sounds like some big operators that were forced to go way out, were able to stay close in and crush the inshore fishery and the small inshore boats were basically put out of business and there fishery closed down.

You know if anything like that was going to happen in the gulf it would have already happened with the red snapper commercial ifq. It has not, they are actually still going offshore still trying to catch vermillion, ******, and smaller red snapper, they need 13 to 18 inchers. Put a go pro down on our spots and see what size snapper are down there, most are 8 to 15 pounds, and no commercial interest. 

I will tell you that is one thing that bothers me, where are all the small snapper, you know the ones that are to replace the big ones when they move offshore in a few years, and they will move believe me. You put a camera down on the I-10 bridge rubble and its like a desert on the bottom, big snapper and jacks swimming up above. Its really like that all over the gulf. I have heard that recruitment rates for 2009,10 and 11 are at historic lows. I actually have seen nothing to disprove this.

Trying to compare the NE cod and ground fish fishery to our reef fish fishery is about like comparing apples to pineapples, nothing similar with the fishery at all. Spreading out days or Ifq or fish tags will do nothing to hurt our fish stocks, it will actually make fishing better than it is today. Why cause I know your going to call BS on that. Well spreading snapper fishing out all year will stop in its tracks everyone rushing out by the boat loads and overfishing our public wrecks, like what happens every calm day off of our coasts. Last year I counted 75 boats on our trolling alley, Ive counted up to 15 boats on one set of I-10 rubble, most all the charter boats are trying to do as many trips in a day as they can, sometimes as many as 3. Fuel cost are so high that everyone is staying as close as possible. Hell last year I found that by the end of snapper season lots of the fish that were on the I-10 rubble had moved away from the big stuff that was getting pounded and loaded up on small spots on both sides of it. The last week of the season last year I was crushing some major fish with-in hollering distance from boats on the rubble. I checked all of this stuff too before the season and it was all pretty much dead and the majority of the fish was on the rubble. Pressure did this.

Don't you just hate it when we get a increase in TAC and the commercial guys that are on ifq, get a pay raise and we get less days? That means the system is broken. Taking the commercial TAC and putting it on the recreational side is NOT going to fix this problem. The only thing that will is a better fish management plan. Accountability and not overfishing the TAC will lead to more days on the water.

TAC increases and better stock assessments are coming, we need better way to manage what we get. The really bad thing is, is that we are one bad hurricane away from losing it all. Ivan blew most all of our red snapper out of here, most of these fish did not come back, another bad one will do the same thing.


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom Ard,

Since you are in the know. How are we recreational fisherman going to be capped? Fish Tag lottery?


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*business*

If your business is that good why even go to the meetings ,why do you fish snapper at all???? Seems to me as a business owner if money were that easy to make without fishing snapper I wouldnt waste my time on there managment or going to the meetings. As far as the recreational sector being banned from fishing unless they ride on a charter boat Well all I can say is good luck with that. We outnumber you 100 to 1 and politicans need votes


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Tom Ard,
> 
> Since you are in the know. How are we recreational fisherman going to be capped? Fish Tag lottery?


No way to know really, but they are working on the "reef fish permit" like an HMS permit, for you guys to have. That will be the first step finding out, who and how many are using the resource. Kinda like registering your guns I guess. 

On the accountability side it probably will have to be a catch card idea like Hiltons plan at first and on down the road I bet it will be some sort of Tag system. Thats just my thoughts tho, no facts here.

You just have to know how things have worked in the past and how things have been laid out over the last 20 years, to see whats coming down the pipe. First they had the federal commercial and CFH permits then they quit making them. Put both under a moratorium and capped both sides from ever growing. Like I said don't know how they are planning on doing it on the recreational side but I will be willing to bet in the next few years, you will start hearing talk of "ideas" and "plans". Just like your hearing about the ones on the CFH side.


----------



## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> No way to know really, but they are working on the "reef fish permit" like an HMS permit, for you guys to have. That will be the first step finding out, who and how many are using the resource. Kinda like registering your guns I guess...


Excellent comparison. Both examples of situations where the government needs to mind their damn business instead of making it harder (and more expensive) for the average American.

Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

John B. said:


> Excellent comparison. Both examples of situations where the government needs to mind their damn business instead of making it harder (and more expensive) for the average American.
> 
> Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner



It is what it is, John. For probably the last 15 years the Federally permitted charter boat has had to deal with Government interference every year and every day that cost us thousands, and takes away access to the public resource. (Not whining here just stating fact) It was just a matter of time that it spilled over onto the recreational side. I have a feeling its coming.


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom,

Well if the government can't decide that the snapper fishery is in no trouble based alone on the exponential growth of the average size in lbs of the fish caught between 2007-2012 and relax regulation and expand the season, i guess a permit plan is good. I know I would feel more comfortable with tac allocation changes if the true effort of red snapper recreational fisherman in the gulf was accounted for. Would feel more comfortable if the government used better science and accounted for the numbers of snapper existing in the gulf first.

Funny though. If the snapper season was longer more people might spend money and target them. With a short season and 2 fish many people have either sold their boats and or don't bother with them. I am sure it is the same for the charter industry- longer season equals more customers equals more effort. When you look what we have lost in the past 8- 10 years with respect to gulf fishing "privileges" it's enough to make your head spin. Some of it driven by people who would never dream of leaving a major metropolitan city lifestyle and their high rise apartment home to live like we have lived and to have seen what we as a group of gulf fisherman have seen...I pity them.

My hope is that somehow as a group all our sons and daughters, grandchildren and relatives not yet born can experience the freedom we once had as gulf fisherman. Not much chance of it but I can hope.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*CFH vessels*

well thanks for pointing out another problem why do you guys run 2-3 trips a day? A head boat running two trips a day will harvest 160 snapper a day for 44 days. No wonder we have a problem privately owned vessel dont harvest that in 10 seasons.

You are correct in your assesment of the NE fishery in compairsion to the GOM with one gloming exception the CFH vessel north of the Chesepaeake primarly run a catch, Photo, Release business model that is promoted by the states as the offer free citations for any outstanding catches(nice plaque ETC.) So maybe the solution to this whole mess is the CFH vessels should practice catch and release and only harvest upon demand of the clients and only harvest half the federally mandated limit once a day not 3 times. If you guys are in it for the fishery prove it stop harvesting fish catch photo release. 

I am still baffled as to why you would run farther to fish snapper when you are making a good living trolling the pass for kings. I guess you get fuel for free or something?


----------



## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I will tell you that is one thing that bothers me, where are all the small snapper, you know the ones that are to replace the big ones when they move offshore in a few years, and they will move believe me. You put a camera down on the I-10 bridge rubble and its like a desert on the bottom, big snapper and jacks swimming up above. Its really like that all over the gulf. I have heard that recruitment rates for 2009,10 and 11 are at historic lows. I actually have seen nothing to disprove this.


Seriously.....About a month ago myself and Capt Droot caught about 40 short snapper in about two hours on the same spot in 90'.


----------



## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Yep*

I believe it was around Jan 19, not to far off, it was a nasty day. Plenty of double headers, plenty of fish, we came back around 12:30. As peeps said, "That is not bull shit"! 

Fairwater, your motives and integrity have been shown before. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. No, I would never encourage anyone to fish with you..... I don't give a damn about your "time in the business", it does NOT speak for your character.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

wonder why he wont answer my questions?????? They are legit why dont you guys set the example for the rest of us You guys want to save the fishery then do it you are killing more fish than the commercial guys. I dont understand your solution to the fishery managment created BS crisis you want the public to allow you to fish more days running 2-3 trips a day so you can kill more of the very thing you claim to be trying to save. 
The truth of the matter is you are in this for personal gain nothing more nothing less you have no vested intrest in saving the fishery you have already stated twice your business doesnt need snapper it is flursing without them...... So again if you can make a living laping the C-bouy catching mercury missles why on earth are you burning all that fuel in June??????


----------



## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Hello*

Ard, they're calling you........ Boll Weevil


----------



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

billin said:


> wonder why he wont answer my questions?????? They are legit why dont you guys set the example for the rest of us You guys want to save the fishery then do it you are killing more fish than the commercial guys. I dont understand your solution to the fishery managment created BS crisis you want the public to allow you to fish more days running 2-3 trips a day so you can kill more of the very thing you claim to be trying to save.
> The truth of the matter is you are in this for personal gain nothing more nothing less you have no vested intrest in saving the fishery you have already stated twice your business doesnt need snapper it is flursing without them...... So again if you can make a living laping the C-bouy catching mercury missles why on earth are you burning all that fuel in June??????


I can answer the 3 trips a day question. 

1. Snapper are an iconic fish in the gulf. When tourists come to bottom fish they think about that iconic red snapper coming aboard (despite the fact they are average table fare). 

2. The Feds will find it necessary to look at federally permitted charter boats logbooks to determine allocation of red snapper in pounds in any scenario where the charter industry moves to a catch share allocation. The more historical poundage you have caught the more poundage you are likely to be awarded if catch shares are initiated...

This past summer I swear I saw an orange beach resmondo build charter boat throwing a rooster tail it was moving so fast to pick up its next load of passenger.
Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Sounds dead on*

:thumbsup: How would you like your neighbor to behave that way? Get out of my way asshole, hooray for me and screw you.

good night gentlemen.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*Mark*

you hit the nail on the head...... But I still dont understand why a business would invest in a venture with no expected return why travel to farther to fish if its like to good captain stated he doesnt need the snapper to support his business so why spend the capital to go to DC and fight for his own little private stock of fish. I have no doubt they will end up with some sort of an alotment similar to the commercial side and this will fund a rather comfortable retirment for you and all of your CFH colleauges the question is will anyone buy the tags


----------



## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Yesterday there was too many small snapper and that was a problem

Today there are too many big snapper and that's a problem....

Interesting game we're playing....almost makes you think somebody might be benefiting from "problems"...


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Wow just got in from dinner with my wife. Lots of activity here.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Bunches of questions too me, who do I start with first? Mark your the most fun on this site to debate with. I will start with yours.

"Well if the government can't decide that the snapper fishery is in no trouble based alone on the exponential growth of the average size in lbs of the fish caught between 2007-2012 and relax regulation and expand the season, i guess a permit plan is good. I know I would feel more comfortable with tac allocation changes if the true effort of red snapper recreational fisherman in the gulf was accounted for. Would feel more comfortable if the government used better science and accounted for the numbers of snapper existing in the gulf first".

I agree!


"Funny though. If the snapper season was longer more people might spend money and target them. With a short season and 2 fish many people have either sold their boats and or don't bother with them. I am sure it is the same for the charter industry- longer season equals more customers equals more effort. When you look what we have lost in the past 8- 10 years with respect to gulf fishing "privileges" it's enough to make your head spin. Some of it driven by people who would never dream of leaving a major metropolitan city lifestyle and their high rise apartment home to live like we have lived and to have seen what we as a group of gulf fisherman have seen…I pity them."

Ok well with a shorter season you actually see more effort. (people going because they think they have too) Reason for all of the two a days on the charter side. When we fished a full season we had days off in the middle of the summer because no one was in a rush to go. Now that everything is so shortened up its a damn mad house. On both sides.

"My hope is that somehow as a group all our sons and daughters, grandchildren and relatives not yet born can experience the freedom we once had as gulf fisherman. Not much chance of it but I can hope".

Don't see that happening on any aspect. I used to bring shotguns and rifles to my school in the window of my pickup truck. Yea I'm from JAY. Thats long gone too. Times have changed.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Still with Mark.
#1 very true.

2. "The Feds will find it necessary to look at federally permitted charter boats logbooks to determine allocation of red snapper in pounds in any scenario where the charter industry moves to a catch share allocation. The more historical poundage you have caught the more poundage you are likely to be awarded if catch shares are initiated"

Only the head boats are under a log book system, the rest have no accountability, just like you. So running double trips in a day is just to make more income in a small season. We used to run long trips at more money now we run cheaper shorter trips but we have to run more of them to make the same. 

3. This past summer I swear I saw an orange beach resmondo build charter boat throwing a rooster tail it was moving so fast to pick up its next load of passenger.
Correct me if I am wrong.

You may be really because most of the big Resmondos still run full days and two days. Its really the smaller charter boats running the short double trips, and the head boats of course but they always have. Maybe that Resmondo was the Necessity and Capt. Ben was late for a date.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Billin. 
No wonder we have a problem privately owned vessel don't harvest that in 10 seasons."

Hell man Hilton himself said that the CFH only catches %19 of the TAC and y'all catch the rest. So which is it?

"maybe the solution to this whole mess is the CFH vessels should practice catch and release and only harvest upon demand of the clients"

If we wasn't doing this we would be out of business! Been doing it for quite sometime. I have a 5 hour in the morning and the cameras will be out.

"I am still baffled as to why you would run farther to fish snapper when you are making a good living trolling the pass for kings. I guess you get fuel for free or something?"

Unlike Pensacola Charter boats we are right next to our pass, I don't run anywhere anymore. Don't have too. we idle to the pass and put the trollers out and troll offshore and then hold up and bottom fish then troll home. We catch our bait trolling and actually burn less fuel on a bottom trip than a all trolling trip.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

My hope is that somehow as a group all our sons and daughters, grandchildren and relatives not yet born can experience the freedom we once had as gulf fisherman. Not much chance of it but I can hope".



Well didnt think i would ever say this but i am in 100 percent agreement with you on this. 

Things will change regardless of our actions. I hope you understand I have nothing against the industry nor you. I am trying to make sense of all of this and you seem to be open enough for discussion I just dont understand why you guys are so interested in sticking it to the little guy but I guess in todays society it is to be expected. 

Why dont you lobby to seperate the commercial TAC and take part of that you are running a business that isnt non-porfit same as the commercial boats. That at face value atleast makes sense


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Captdroot, your an idiot like always and I will not respond to you. Is there an ignore button on this thing?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Sniperpeeps. I can show you some video I took, but I'm sure I would photoshop that too, huh?

"Seriously.....About a month ago myself and Capt Droot caught about 40 short snapper in about two hours on the same spot in 90'."

Seriously two hours on the same spot? Your kind of new to this charter thingy huh? You actually hang out with Capt Droot? WOW, That says a lot. With comments like that Im going to have to ignore you also.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

Hell man Hilton himself said that the CFH only catches %19 of the TAC and y'all catch the rest. So which is it?


really you admit you guys have no accountability then you throw that out. 


There is no way the private boat owner currently fishing the GOM harvest more snapper than you guys it isnt possiable if you havent noticed we are in a recession and many have homes in forclosure and have been layed off or furloughed atleast once over the past few years boat ramps are not as crowded as they used to be and you dont need a tub of grease and a shoe horn to get out the pass in the morning anymore. You guys are still by your own admission running like never before. The number you quoted above would have been more accurate in 04-08 when everyone had the money and time to fish and the boat dealers couldnt keep a decent ride on the lot almost everyone owned a boat back then


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*fairwater*

no need for rudeness if you dont wont to discuss the issues then dont but name calling and taking a condesending tone with another charter captain does nothing but make you look bad.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Billin> "I just don't understand why you guys are so interested in sticking it to the little guy but I guess in todays society it is to be expected." 

In time you will see that "we" are not sticking nothing to no one. "we" are trying to find a new fish management plan. Soon your recreational guys will have a new fish management plan. Will you be a part in creating it or will you just let some one else do it for you?

"Why dont you lobby to seperate the commercial TAC and take part of that you are running a business that isnt non-porfit same as the commercial boats. That at face value at least makes sense"

You know, when it all comes out in the wash we might get some commercial TAC, but we would have to be accountable before any of that talk can happen. You know the American consumer still wants there fish too, its a bunch of fish buyers out there. Whole nother user group to consider.

Billin you do know we are catching these fish right now and have been for many years. They have % numbers of what we catch every year. If we took these % numbers that we have historically caught and use them in a different way, how is that stealing anything that we are already using? I just don't get that argument.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Billin, the issues to discuss is what they have on paper. I say hell man all the time, its not meant to be rude, sorry. I just want you to know what has been said. Hilton has been sating facts all week all over the internet how the CFH catches %17 or %19 of the red snapper. You guys all respect his opinion take that out with him i guess.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

There is no way the private boat owner currently fishing the GOM harvest more snapper than you guys it isnt possiable if you havent noticed we are in a recession and many have homes in forclosure and have been layed off or furloughed atleast once over the past few years boat ramps are not as crowded as they used to be and you dont need a tub of grease and a shoe horn to get out the pass in the morning anymore. You guys are still by your own admission running like never before. The number you quoted above would have been more accurate in 04-08 when everyone had the money and time to fish and the boat dealers couldnt keep a decent ride on the lot almost everyone owned a boat back then[/QUOTE]


Actually I agree with this, but under mrip or what ever there static quo means of collecting data is they say that this is just not true. Thats what we are really mad about. The data collection right now is just garbage.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

Thats what we are really mad about. The data collection right now is just garbage. 

you got that right. 



i now better understand your argument as you havent increased your harvest over the past few years and dont want to in the future. If the stock is improving you shouldnt have too. I understand you guys do release fish when out of season same as the rest of us My question was do you guys practice catch and release when they are in season. I have fished alot of different places as a charter client and its generally the first thing I discuss when booking a trip and most captains will open encourage catch and release fishing and activly discourage harvest. I feel this is a prudent resource managment technique. Most of the fish harvested will end up with freezor burn and get tossed out anyway. Most people that enjoy catching what they eat and when i say eat i mean more than 5 times a year own their own boat or fish with friends when fishing at home i mean after all they live there


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

billin said:


> Thats what we are really mad about. The data collection right now is just garbage.
> 
> you got that right.
> 
> ...


 I agree with all of this, but in the end its the customers trip, and they have there limit if they want it. Now on the other hand I can not really catch red snapper on my own. I am making a living taking people fishing during this time so if they don't want there fish, I actually keep them and freeze them for the winter and myself and my deck hands split them up to eat during the offseason. Last year we was able to get a good mess. 

The main reason for wanting an IFQ system is that most of our customers really just want to kill enough to eat so instead of killing thousands of pounds of fish in one or two months, we want to be able to spread this out thru out the year. It just makes since, and it fully agrees with your argument.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

The main reason for wanting an IFQ system is that most of our customers really just want to kill enough to eat so instead of killing thousands of pounds of fish in one or two months, we want to be able to spread this out thru out the year. It just makes since, and it fully agrees with your argument. 


That makes sense and if the IFQ program is the answer so be it. I agree that wiping the reefs clean in June is a bad idea for all and I feel it hurts the fishery. i ofcourse am no marine biologist so i have no proof but it makes logical sense to me. My main objection to the IFQ program is the allocation of the snapper I would be alot more open to it if the gulf concil would come up with a decent honest plan that doesnt leave me and alot of other people buying tags or poundage from private induviduals at a jacked up rate. This almost came to be at the Destin rodeo last year. iIhave a hard time beliving that atleast some of the CFH group actually wants that to happen more money for less work. who doesnt like that idea. I would be ok with tags if they were sold like a duck stamp not transerable or for resale


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Your pretty smart on this stuff. Yep allocation is going to be the biggest issue but we will take a much smaller % if we are able to inter-sector trade, and have our on sector. Actually if the recreational side could come together on this you guys would probably have more % of the fish than you have now. Win, Win. You see we want our on Sector pretty bad.

Current lease rate is about $3.25 per pound, we would have to set up a pool of fish which could be leased, and It would have to be fair so a corporate boat owner just would not lease up all the quota or a commercial/charter guy that already had 10000 pounds would not have an unfair advantage over me that has none. So if any commercial side quota is used is MUST be used equally and fairly between all charter boats no matter if its leased or already allocated to the business as commercial. Its all be talked about and it can work under some short of shareholders alliance or something of that nature.

The thing is, is that fish markets want no part of this and most commercial guys want no part of this. Lease rate may $3.25 but they get over $4 at the market. The charter guys will stand tall and not pay a dime over market price thru the share holders alliance . Well you get the idea, lots and lots of details to work out to make it all fair for every one. But the commercial guys do want us to have our on Sector so Im sure they will be willing to help but probably no more than %25 of there TAC probably less.

Anyhow something like this could work for us, mean while you guys could decide how your new fish management plan would work with your extra % of fish that we have given up.

Oh yea and I have heard nothing about y'all having to pay or lease any tags or fish. If you read the fine print last year that money they wanted for the few red snapper tags was for charity and I think that was a good idea, I don't see the reason for the uproar. No one was to profit, it was going to a good cause. They gave away a few tags for the Alabama Deep sea rodeo also, I think you will see this at more and more tournaments getting a few Snapper tags each year, and if they auction them off to help some cancer kids or the homeless or something I feel that would be great.


----------



## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Sniperpeeps. I can show you some video I took, but I'm sure I would photoshop that too, huh?
> 
> "Seriously.....About a month ago myself and Capt Droot caught about 40 short snapper in about two hours on the same spot in 90'."
> 
> Seriously two hours on the same spot? Your kind of new to this charter thingy huh? You actually hang out with Capt Droot? WOW, That says a lot. With comments like that Im going to have to ignore you also.


Wasn't a charter, just some fun light tackle fishing and we stayed on the same spot, only a couple miles from the beach, because it was rough as hell and we didn't want to get banged up. And there was a never ending supply of juvenile snapper. I know of probably 10 spots off the top of my head loaded with juvenile snapper I could go to right now, there is no shortage I don't give a crap about a video you took on one spot on one day sounds like you and NOAA use the same kind of "science". Keep trying to convince people you're just a good old charter capt with good intentions, it's working:no:

I would say I will ignore you but it is impossible to ignore the amount of BS you are able to will your fingers to type. What's kind of funny is to go back and read some of your threads and just see how many times you contradict yourself....you habitually contradict yourself. Yea, I can see why you could have an issue with droot, he does call you out on your crap on a regular basis.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Our extra % that you are giving up? CFH vessels accounted for 19% of the red snapper landings according to the Sector Separation document - private recs accounted for 67%. Somehow I don't think your figures will reflect those percentages Capt. Ard. In fact, I know they won't.

This is how inter-sector trading will work;

The charter captain charges his usual charter fee to take his customers fishing.

If you catch a nice 20 pound snapper however, Capt. Ard will ask; *"Hey, do you want to take that fish home? If so, the going rate is $4/pound, so it will cost you an additional $80 for that fish. If not, that's OK, I will simply get my money back that I paid through inter-sector trading back at the dock when I sell it to the local fish house - either way, I get my $4/pound."* If you want to fish catch and release only - that's fine too - in fact, that falls in line with the Vision 2020 document - to encourage the "recreational fishing experience" instead of taking the fish home.

IFQs are simply a way to create a revenue stream where one doesn't now exist.

The upcoming reauthorization needs to address this egregious flaw - if they want to assign allocation to fishermen, then those fishermen should lease that quota directly from the government.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Billin, the issues to discuss is what they have on paper. I say hell man all the time, its not meant to be rude, sorry. I just want you to know what has been said. Hilton has been sating facts all week all over the internet how the CFH catches %17 or %19 of the red snapper. You guys all respect his opinion take that out with him i guess.


This is my opinion now?

Wrong captain - it's what is stated as fact in the Sector Separation Scoping Document - page 15.

If the private rec vessels are accounting for an increasing % of the landings, then it's called free enterprise - the American way. 

What you guys are proposing is a form of Socialism, where the government decides who gets what based on some cherry-picked historical numbers.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Opinion was used in reference to "what you say" you know this.

"If not, that's OK, I will simply get my money back that I paid through inter-sector trading back at the dock when I sell it to the local fish house"

Pure fantasy, I don't have a commercial license, I can't sell fish. Commercial/charter boats can't sell fish with charter customers on board.

I don't believe Allocation will be based off of any cherry picked numbers. It will be picked off of real numbers of who actually reef fish. Soon all Charter for hire will be on i-snapper and the small boat owners will have a reef permit, as soon as they implement a way to tell how much the small boats are fishing, then allocation will be easy and it will be fair.

"Hey, do you want to take that fish home? If so, the going rate is $4/pound, so it will cost you an additional $80 for that fish".

What does that matter your not a charter customer, wait do you even fish? Ive got customers from Oklahoma that have more since than you on whats going on. You sound like nothing but a Professional internet blogger/paste and click king. 

The more you talk the more clueless you sound to me. That or you smoke a bunch of pot. I do see you like to spin fear, you and Zales must be big buddys.


----------



## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

The LaJess II said:


> When Chef’s start going to DC to lobby for catch shares it don’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.


You guys can keep arguing, but I don't really see a problem with restaurant owners and chefs getting involved. Why shouldn't they? They almost killed one fishery before. Most of the "real" chefs I know are very interested in this kind of stuff and keep themselves informed.

I am happy to sit back and watch all of this unfold. What sucks is the nastiness, the personal jabs, calling people stupid, etc. that some folks bring out. Broken record playing an old, old song.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Typical of these EDF-funded/scripted captains to resort to personal attacks instead of addressing the real issues. One of the CFA leadership tried that tactic a while back, trying to discredit me saying that I must be smoking pot. When I mentioned that he was observed smoking pot in a parking lot, he shut up, REAL fast.

So, I am a pot-smoking, clueless, fear monger. Great. You may want to consult with an attorney regarding slandering a person's reputation before you proceed any further down that path Amigo.

At least I have enough "sense" to know how to spell "sense" - how ironic. 
Hint: definition of since;
*adverb* 
1. from then till now (often preceded by ever ): He was elected in 1978 and has been president ever since. 
2. between a particular past time and the present; subsequently: She at first refused, but has since consented. 
3.ago; before now: long since. 
*preposition* 
4. continuously from or counting from: It has been warm since noon. 
5. between a past time or event and the present: There have been many changes since the war.

OK, so why don't you educate all of us Capt Ard, *SINCE* you are obviously so very smart. 

Of course it's not legal to sell fish with charter customers aboard right now, but we don't have inter-sector trading right now either, do we? What happens when CFH captains start leasing/buying IFQ shares from the commercial guys Ard? As you yourself said, there would be a lot of tweaking of the current laws to make it work. 

Couldn't that law be tweaked as well if inter-sector trading was approved? Yes/No?

Those fish would still technically be commercial fish.

Also, please explain the economics of how it would work if it didn't work like the scenario that I presented. Let's say your normal charter price is $2,000/trip, and you lease 200 pounds of red snapper shares from a commercial operator to use on this charter for $4/pound ($800). Let's say your customers catch and want to take home all 200 pounds of red snapper. *How do YOU handle this?*

Do you simply add $800 onto the cost of the trip upfront, even if they caught just 1 red snapper and regardless if they catch all of those pounds or not? Yes/No?

Do you simply eat the $800, and let the customers take home their fish, thus netting only $1,200 for the trip? Yes/No?

Please explain to us uneducated ones how *YOU* see it working.

How is that $800 figured into your business plan? Is it an expense item, an income item, or what? 

Thanks in advance,
Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


----------



## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

For those of you keeping score ...
Tom ard - 0
Tom Hilton - 1

Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

yawn, clueless is that spelled right? Growing bored with you go crawl back up Zales ass you win.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> yawn, clueless is that spelled right? Growing bored with you go crawl back up Zales ass you win.


Wow.

Again, typical EDF-funded captain who reverts to name calling instead of answering simple questions about how YOU would handle inter-sector IFQ trading.

Since this will affect YOUR customers Ard, your refusal to explain how inter-sector will affect THEM speaks VOLUMES.

Looks like it is THEM that you want to remain clueless.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

BTW, I don't have anything to do with Zales and haven't talked to him in months, so don't see the connection, although he does have extensive experience dealing with the NMFS and how they have gone back on their word several times. You may want to contact him regarding that, since you are hanging your hat on them being honest with you.


----------



## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*Subect*

This is the thread that just won't stop but then again why should it I understand both sides of the argument but it still seems to be one glaring issue Where does all the money go from the allocation who gets those funds and why


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

No Fairwater you are clueless. When the economy and the housing market went south I was not up in DC trying to throw my fellow American under the bus so I could keep the doors to my business open. I had to close the door to my business as so many others had to do. I didn’t deserve a bigger piece of the pie than anyone else.Instead I chose to support the ones that was still struggling. The way I looked at it was one day the market will come back and I will come back if God is willing. I did not try to destroy others business just to try to save my own. You guys would rather see all these States economy go to hell just so you and many, many, others can line your pockets. You guys don’t even begin to bring a fraction of the revenue into the Gulf Coast States as to compared to the private rec fisherman. 


Do you really think that *when and if this does go through* that all these Governors & Senators along the Gulf Coast are going to sit back when the billions of revenue start screaming out the window that was being generated by the private sector is going to last just because a fraction of you guys can count fish?


I don’t think so. We down here in the South are not going to stand by and let our resources get sold out from under us like the East & West coast. 


Another thing do you speak to people at these meetings like you have to Hilton when they say something you do not like? 

Most people get that upset when the truth hurts and they start making accusations against ones character.


----------



## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Careful LaJess, when you start talking about realistic and factual information he gets his panties in a bunch and starts whining about other things to change the subject........


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

sniperpeeps said:


> Careful LaJess, when you start talking about realistic and factual information he gets his panties in a bunch and starts whining about other things to change the subject........


 
Well then he should really talk to me about getting panties in a bunch because I'm legit. As a woman I can give him info how to take care of that problem.


----------



## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

The LaJess II said:


> Well then he should really talk to me about getting panties in a bunch because I'm legit. As a woman I can give him info how to take care of that problem.


Wait you're a woman!?!? Totally thought you were a dude. Lol. Touché ma'am!

Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

John B. said:


> Wait you're a woman!?!? Totally thought you were a dude. Lol. Touché ma'am!
> 
> Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


Touche to you. You are very polite.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

NA, just getting tired of beating this dead horse. If y'all have any legit questions about fish politics that have nothing to do with fear spinning just shoot me a PM. Ive pretty much answered all legit questions to me. The rest of the questions are mainly fantasy dreams along with the fear spin to keep everyone in a uproar. I will be at all 4 days of the gulf council meeting in April, if you get to go come find me and we will talk, if its your first time there, I will try my best to show you how the game is being played and who are all the players. Till then, peace out.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fantasy dreams? No, legit questions regarding hard reality.

Ard is doing some serious dodging, trying to avoid answering some very simple, pointed *ACCOUNTING* questions relative to the IFQ inter-sector trading debacle.

He claims that he tired of beating a dead horse, or that he has already (pretty much) answered the "legit" questions, or that he's bored, or whatever - *ANYTHING* except provide the sordid details of how inter-sector trading will affect his customers.

*You see, he would then have to snap out of his fantasy dream (or is it outright deception?) and face hard reality of the fact that he would then be charging his customers a PRETTY PENNY for something that they currently get for FREE - our fish.*

For someone who constantly harps about bringing *ACCOUNTABILITY* to the table with the EDF Plan, it's ironic that he himself refuses to provide an *ACCOUNTING* of how the already acknowledged inter-sector IFQ $$$ transactions will play out.

Not surprising, really.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


----------



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> NA, just getting tired of beating this dead horse. If y'all have any legit questions about fish politics that have nothing to do with fear spinning just shoot me a PM. Ive pretty much answered all legit questions to me. The rest of the questions are mainly fantasy dreams along with the fear spin to keep everyone in a uproar. I will be at all 4 days of the gulf council meeting in April, if you get to go come find me and we will talk, if its your first time there, I will try my best to show you how the game is being played and who are all the players. Till then, peace out.


We already know the players and you are a pawn in the game why you don't see that I don't know.


----------



## JoeyWelch (Sep 25, 2009)

Ard I do believe you have shit in your bed here..... Nice work:thumbsup:


----------



## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Oh yes, I'm the idiot*



Fairwaterfishing said:


> Captdroot, your an idiot like always and I will not respond to you. Is there an ignore button on this thing?



That's why you are the fella that is dancing the two step. I was in the fishing business when you were six years old. I know some folks that are still in the fishing business from Cape Lookout, NC to Carrabelle, Fl. 

Yes, I'm an idiot because I don't mix words. You are not popular with many folks; some in the fishing business and others who simply see you for what you are. When describing you, I suspect they would choose a term much more derogatory than an "idiot". 

Many folks on here; and else where, recognize that it is all about what is good for" Tom Ard". Doubt that you would be asked to umpire a ball game, sit on a jury, or count the offering tray! 

Yes, I'm the blind idiot.


----------



## southbound (Mar 10, 2010)

Straight from EDF website; 

In fact, two iconic fisheries — Gulf red snapper and California salmon — had collapsed completely by 2003, and only about a quarter of American fish stocks were considered sustainable. Fisherman were going broke. Conventional management had failed to stop the decline.

I dont remember the Red Snapper fishery being completly collapsed?

Now EDF is already claiming success for restoring the Red Snapper Fishery with catch shares.

Each new catch share program provides more evidence of success. A red snapper program we helped develop in the Gulf of Mexico has cut the wasteful discard of non-targeted fish by 50% since 2006 and is helping snapper populations to rebound and fishermen to work more profitably. 

Why are you captians dealing with the enemy???


----------



## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

southbound said:


> Straight from EDF website;
> 
> In fact, two iconic fisheries — Gulf red snapper and California salmon — had collapsed completely by 2003, and only about a quarter of American fish stocks were considered sustainable. Fisherman were going broke. Conventional management had failed to stop the decline.
> 
> ...


Politicians and those involved in politics are the only people on the face of the planet that create a problem out of thin air and then campaign against said problem and then clam success that they fixed the problem that did not exist in the first place. 

All in the name of lining the pockets of a few on the backs of a public resource.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't think you'll be seeing Capt Ard back on this thread - I'm sure his EDF handlers have put the muzzle and leash on him by now. After all, the LAST thing they want is an open discussion regarding the real, tangible effects of Days At Sea / for-hire IFQ intersector trading.

Capt. Thomas J Hilton


----------



## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

Tom Hilton said:


> I don't think you'll be seeing Capt Ard back on this thread - I'm sure his EDF handlers have put the muzzle and leash on him by now. After all, the LAST thing they want is an open discussion regarding the real, tangible effects of Days At Sea / for-hire IFQ intersector trading.
> 
> Capt. Thomas J Hilton


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Yes, keeping him spouting has perhaps helped......... expose those who stay behind the scene. Glad I could help.

Thanks Capt Hilton


----------



## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

Just a thought about the CFH guys wanting their own IFQs, DAS, inter/ intra sector trading, how this system would be monitored and funded? The commercial sector pays a tax, which does not even begin to cover the cost of their IFQ program. The CFH guys, as I understand will report via the isnapper app (if it happens). Is this easier to monitor and more cost effective than the VMS system? Whatever the case I do not want to see the taxpayers pick up the tab as it is being done on the commercial side.


----------



## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

DI 310 said:


> Just a thought about the CFH guys wanting their own IFQs, DAS, inter/ intra sector trading, how this system would be monitored and funded? The commercial sector pays a tax, which does not even begin to cover the cost of their IFQ program. The CFH guys, as I understand will report via the isnapper app (if it happens). Is this easier to monitor and more cost effective than the VMS system? Whatever the case I do not want to see the taxpayers pick up the tab as it is being done on the commercial side.


the for-hire customers will be paying $4, $5, or whatever price per pound that the captain wants to charge for any fish they want to take home. remember, these fish are ALREADY owned by those fishermen, as they are our Public Trust Resource and are currently FREE.


----------



## Captdroot (Jan 18, 2012)

*Di31*

Good points and I believe you are correct about monitoring. Commercial fellas are having to pay for monitoring..... and I *believe??* there is more monitoring coming.

I also should add, I don't here _*any*_ of those fellas holding "enough quotas" complaining about: can't find any fish, can't sell my catch for a good price, or can't make any money.

How many small businesses in this country will say, "They don't have complaints about making a profit"? Hm?


----------



## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*I just can't*

Since my wife, kids, and I moved here in 1991 from Gulfport,MS, we've made many friends. Most of those fish. Many are charter boat captains and their wives as well. But there are just as many of my friends who are recreational fishermen. They know who they are. 

The main reason I can't support either catch shares, days at sea, or IFQ for the cfh industry is that It Can't Be done Fairly. 

I don't care what formula is used, there is no fair way to slice the pie. Most of us agree, we'd rather not screw over our friends. My small boat is the only way I get fish. Unlike Captfairwater, its rare for customers to give us fish. If they do the deckhand ususally gets them. With Florida going to 44 days, I'm now pitted against rec. fishermen who'll be blessed with a 44 days while my fantastic Federal permit keeps me following state regs.


----------

