# FL SBR or Can info?



## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Hey guys just curious if anyone here has a SBR or can and if so what route they went to make it all legal.. (form CLEO sign off, Trust etc..) just curious


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## rob883 (Oct 3, 2007)

well unless you are a SOT you cannot cut any rifle or shotgun down or build a slinecer or suppressor and make it legal.you may buy them through a class 3 dealer.The home builds are illegal.There is no way i know that an individual may produce anything that requires an NFA tax stamp.If you have any questions call Larry Blackburn at 477 2223


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## MikeG (Oct 5, 2007)

*Sbr*

Any normal citizen can have an SBR and/or silencer as long as you get your 200 tax stamp. I have a legal one right now. You must complete the correct paperwork with fingerprints and have the paperwork autographed by the Sheriff in the county in which you live. You then send it in with a 200 dollar check and in about 60-90 days you will have a tax stamp in the mail and you can then put the rifle together as one piece. Go to AR15.com and there is a whole section that tells you the process. I know alot of people with them and I work for the Sheriff, so the paperwork comes in constantly for new applicants.


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

rgr that thanks for the info. I did not know if the new sheriff was "class 3" friendly.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

I have both an SBR (yes you can do a build yourself and submit it on a Form 1) and a B&T can (that I purchased FTF from an individual in a Mc Donald's parking lot on a Form 4). Both have papers and tax stamps. I went the individual ownership route and had Ronnie Mac signed off on both sets of papers. I've not asked Sheriff Morgan to sign off on any NFA stuff yet -- but my understanding is that he is very pro-2nd amendment rights.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

rob883 said:


> well unless you are a SOT you cannot cut any rifle or shotgun down or build a slinecer or suppressor and make it legal.you may buy them through a class 3 dealer.The home builds are illegal.There is no way i know that an individual may produce anything that requires an NFA tax stamp.


This is not exactly correct. You can build things and submit them for registration on a Form 1 (actually - you submit the Form 1 first and get it approved, then you can perform the build). I might add that you shouldn't buy all the pieces and have them in the same place until you get the approved and stamped Form 1 back -- lest you fall into the trap of being guilty to possession with constructive intent...


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Thanks Scuba and just to clarify if I wanted a SBR w/can I would need a 200$ stamp for each one correct?


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Correct - a tax stamp for each individual item (unless you wanted to pin the can to the SBR and render it useless on other firearms)


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Rgr that's what I thought
thanks


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

Yes, Sheriff Morgan will do CLEO signoffs with a background check. Which is sorta redundant and potentially allows the sheriff to deny someone for things that are of higher criteria than the requirements found in the NFA act and GCA act. I don't necessarily agree with the CLEO signoff requirement in the entirety since it can be used arbitrarily and is no longer needed in the 21st century. The origional intent of the CLEO signoff in 1934 was for local law enforcement to attest to the federal government that you were not wanted locally. In today's society of information sharing it's no longer necessary.

I highly recommend anyone looking into NFA to go with the trust route as it is very flexible and does not require any CLEO, fingerprints or photos.


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## rob883 (Oct 3, 2007)

i stand corrected .I wan under the impression on the cans that you were not able to build them yourself without a license for manufacture.Rereading the post on the SBR angle yes totally anybody can buy the uppers and then put them together.


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## MikeG (Oct 5, 2007)

Actually CLEO sign off now days is not for the Sheriff to approve or disapprove but he signs acknowledging that he knows you home the weapon in his county. Either way..you can always send it to ADCO and they will cut it down for you cheap,and make sure it shoots good


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

I don't know about FL, but in AL the CLEO in the county is the coroner. In some of the counties where the sheriff won't sign off, typically the coroner will.


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Thats one of the reasons I brought this topic up is to get all the sides of the subject to make a informed decision.
Also from what I understand in a trust you or whoever is listed as a trustee may have possession of the weapon and if something happens to you you can leave it to your kids.. or whoever you designate


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## bobinbusan (Feb 16, 2010)

Need more details on this TRUST ,Also from what I understand in a trust you or whoever is listed as a trustee may have possession of the weapon and if something happens to you you can leave it to your kids.. or whoever you designate ??
How many trustee can be listed and would they have to get a back ground check?
Thanks


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## RockB (Oct 11, 2007)

I have been considering this myself. 

How difficult is it to set up the trust? 
What are the costs involved? 
Are there recurring costs to keep it up?

What about storage of the CLASS III item, are there requirements for how it is stored?

Can it be brought into another county in FL without notifying anyone?


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## timc (Oct 19, 2009)

Has anyone in Santa Rosa County done a Form 1? How receptive was the Sheriff?


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

flcaptainbill said:


> Can it be brought into another county in FL without notifying anyone?


You are free to move within the state with no special notification.


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

Sheriff Lowman did mine.
if you are building one it is best to buy a virgin receiver and not assemble the weapon until the paperwork comes back.
or dead pin a barrel extension onto the short barrel which makes it a legal length barrel before assembly, then after and only after the paperwork comes back do you drill out the dead pin and remove the barrel extension / can


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

DoneDeal2 said:


> Actually CLEO sign off now days is not for the Sheriff to approve or disapprove but he signs acknowledging that he knows you home the weapon in his county. Either way..you can always send it to ADCO and they will cut it down for you cheap,and make sure it shoots good
> 
> The CLEO signoff concept was put into the NFA act because in 1934 when the act was passed law enforcement communication wasn't like it is today. The federal government simply had no way of knowing if you were wanted locally and would have no legal prohibitions to owning such item in the locality where the person lived. Toady, it is useless for its original intent and it largely used to deny people for capricious reasons or political reasons. The most insidious thing about the CLEO signoff is that many CLEOs will charge ridiculous fees or create requirements for a signoff that are in excess of the requirements of posses a firearm found in the GCA68/NFA34.





bobinbusan said:


> Need more details on this TRUST ,Also from what I understand in a trust you or whoever is listed as a trustee may have possession of the weapon and if something happens to you you can leave it to your kids.. or whoever you designate ??
> How many trustee can be listed and would they have to get a back ground check?
> Thanks
> 
> ...





flcaptainbill said:


> I have been considering this myself.
> 
> How difficult is it to set up the trust?
> What are the costs involved?
> ...






timc said:


> Has anyone in Santa Rosa County done a Form 1? How receptive was the Sheriff?


I do not know if Sheriff Hall will do CLEO signoffs. I have met him before and I really don't feel that he is entirely enthusiastic about firearms. I don't see the glow in his eyes that many people have when talking about firearms or the 2nd A. Also, he is anti college campus carry.


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Great info Gravity thanks for that


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## timc (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks Gravity. Appreciate the info. I would love to build a SBR AR, and this info helps.


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## MikeG (Oct 5, 2007)

*Cleo*

Sheriff Hall signs off on these just as easy as the rest do. I have mine in Santa Rosa and wouldnt hesitate to send more paperwork to him for another one. Its just an acknowledgement that you own it in his county. Can he deny signing it? YES , but more than likely he wont if you meet all the requirments.


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## Dixie (Oct 12, 2011)

I've been thinking about going the suppressor route and had talked to a couple of friends in the milton area about the paperwork issue. A buddy has done two form1 for sbrs. He said the first he got back the next day and the second one it took four but there weren't any problems. He did say the hardest part was getting the finger prints. I guess they only take prints at certain times and the lady doing it can have a bit of an attitude.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

DoneDeal2 said:


> Sheriff Hall signs off on these just as easy as the rest do. I have mine in Santa Rosa and wouldnt hesitate to send more paperwork to him for another one. Its just an acknowledgement that you own it in his county. Can he deny signing it? YES , but more than likely he wont if you meet all the requirments.


"I have no information indicating that the maker will use the firearm or device described on this application for other than lawful purposes. I have no information that Possession of the Firearm described in Item 4 on the Front of this Form would place the maker in Violation of State or Local Law."

That's the wording that is used for instructions for the CLEO. It seems to me that CLEO signoff based upon the above instructions is to make sure that there is nothing legally prohibiting you from possessing an NFA firearm. In today's technology with NCIC this is redundant and can lead to denials for capricious reasons. Furthermore, one can easily bypass using the trust, corporate route or have a type 07/02 FFL/SOT. In other words they really don't have any reason to know and bypassing the signoff has caused no problems that I'm aware of for the NFA community at large.


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## ouija (Oct 11, 2011)

I havent had a problem with Morgan signing anything in Escambia County. Also if you go through a trust it is only good in the state that you started it from what I understand. So if you move to another state you will have to do it all over again. Form 1 is probably the easiest and cheapiest way to do the SBR route. My SBR form 1 had been pending since July 29th and I am still waiting. And dont forget if you transport your SBR across statelines you will need permission.


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

Since there is a gun board that is ALL GUNS and has an NFA section loaded with guys doing the NFA thing for decades...
I refer all questions to them.

There are LEO's Lawyers judges, feds and more using the site.

They can walk you thru every step of all things NFA including the "trust" method which I would prefer...

NO CLEO sign off required and he won't even know you have your NFA toys!

Also, with a trust, you can use a secondary address for the "trust" and this is where the "toys" will be stored.

Also with a trust, all of the "board members" listed on the "trust" can be in possession without the "main guy" present... So if 4 or 5 folks want to chip in and do this, it reduces costs to all and with a trust being located remotely, you retain ALL of your civil rights regarding search and seizure at your primary address...

The NFA section...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Their main page...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/index.php

Brent


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

> So how do you do a background check on a trust?


EXACTLY!!! This is one of the benefits of a trust...

It don't much matter what ATF or any other law agency thinks about it... It is legal... it is done everyday and until things change... STICK IT!!!

Brent


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

ouija said:


> I havent had a problem with Morgan signing anything in Escambia County. Also if you go through a trust it is only good in the state that you started it from what I understand. So if you move to another state you will have to do it all over again. Form 1 is probably the easiest and cheapiest way to do the SBR route. My SBR form 1 had been pending since July 29th and I am still waiting. And dont forget if you transport your SBR across statelines you will need permission.


Not really, David Goldman who is a respected trust lawyer specializing in NFA firearm trusts states that the ATF and other entities will accept any trust as long as it was legally executed in the state where the grantor resides. Furthermore, FL uses the Uniform Probate Code (UPC) and it is the most widely accepted format in the U.S. for wills and trusts. Moving to state such as Alaska would be seamless since their trusts are also UPC which means that they are a mirror image of FL trusts.

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2011/04/what-happens-with-my-gun-trus.html

A Form 1 and Form 4 both cost the same at $200. Some prefer a Form 4 SBR since they don't have to pay the cost and the potentially ugly job for an engraver. Also, it's usually cheaper and less labor to have a factory SBR than to buy a spare barrel and install it yourself. Addmitidly a Form 1 is sometimes attractive when you can't find a factory SBR.


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## Dixie (Oct 12, 2011)

I e-mailed the gun trust lawyer site about a month ago asking how much it would cost. They said it'd be $500. I've heard of people setting it up through Quicken too. I like the idea of no CLEO signature or fingerprints.


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## ilintner (Jun 9, 2011)

I have 2 form 1's and 5 form 4's on my quicken trust, no problems what so ever.


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## Dixie (Oct 12, 2011)

Is quicken just 'fill in the blank'? I've not ever used quicken but I assume you pay for the software, there's a standard form, you populate it with your info then notarize it. How much is there to it?

If you already have form 1s or 4s can you put those on a new trust without paying another $200?

Just wondering. The individual seems straight forward but I can see the benefits of the trust.


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## ilintner (Jun 9, 2011)

Dixie said:


> Is quicken just 'fill in the blank'? I've not ever used quicken but I assume you pay for the software, there's a standard form, you populate it with your info then notarize it. How much is there to it?
> 
> If you already have form 1s or 4s can you put those on a new trust without paying another $200?
> 
> Just wondering. The individual seems straight forward but I can see the benefits of the trust.



It walks you through the entire process and it pretty painless. 

I will note that at the time I did mine they had removed the trust software from the subsequent versions of the program, so if you are going that route make sure that the version you get includes the trust software.

As far as transferring existing items tax free, you can't. As I understand it, the trust is the entity that owns the goodies, and you would have to pay to transfer it just as you would with an individual sale.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

ilintner said:


> It walks you through the entire process and it pretty painless.
> 
> I will note that at the time I did mine they had removed the trust software from the subsequent versions of the program, so if you are going that route make sure that the version you get includes the trust software.
> 
> As far as transferring existing items tax free, you can't. As I understand it, the trust is the entity that owns the goodies, and you would have to pay to transfer it just as you would with an individual sale.


From my sources, the BATF doesn't allow a tax free Form 5 transfer. This is weird since Form 5s are used for estate transfers and a trust is an estate planning tool. Currently they only allow an individual transfer under a will or intestate estate.

Make sure you get the latest version of Quickin. FL made substantial changes a few years ago when they decided to go to Uniform Probate Code in the entirety. I don't think you need to update your current trusts since it only matters if you were conforming to the trust code at the time of execution.


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