# The Invasive Flathead



## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

After 40 years the results are in


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

With the Yellow as low as I have ever seen it makes sense that all fish are congregating in the few deep holes that are found. Believe me between Holt and Ginhole those deep spots are few. If a big flathead joins the crowd it will eat everything there. The other species have few places to hide as shallow as it is. I know from experience that sucker fishing in my stretch of the river is poor this year and I think it is because of the flatheads. Same reason you rarely catch a mudcat in the river anymore.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

I v got buddies who bow-fish the Yellow River and they have nearly filled boats this year with suckers with plenty of photos and videos showing them doing it. The Bluegill and Shell cracker fishing in both Escambia and Yellow river is world class right. I'm catching almost 50 in 50 cast with many well above hand size. Here is a video from today of me doing it. [URL="http://www.facebook.com/FloridaCatHunter/videos/1444711702210417/"]http://www.facebook.com/FloridaCatHunter/videos/1444711702210417/[/URL]

As far as the bullheads go (mudcats) they also have adapted. They have moved into the backwaters. Easy pickings there too. 

Always remember, if flatheads were mindless eating machines they would be easy to catch for everyone. If a big flathead moves into a deep hole occupied by sunfish he may eat 1-2 fish then go lay down for the next 24 hours with 0 movement. Tracking studies show this type of behavioral patterns. It's science.


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## k-dog (May 15, 2013)

Awesome clip


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

Bream fishing on the upper Yellow is not world class. Maybe suckers can be found in certain parts of the river too, but they are not coming to our baited holes like in the past. Also the mudcat are few and far between when fishing in the main river. You and I will never agree on the damage the flathead has done to our local rivers.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

We just had a rally on Yellow River not long ago. My guys had no problem filling their live wells with Bluegills and sunfish in less than an hour, every one of my members caught their limits of sunfish. Say what you want, assume as you will the facts dont lie. The only thing we had a hard time catching was flatheads.

Our Yellow River rally yielded the worst results of any River we have been to this year. ll agree with you, there is a problem with Yellow River, and its not a lack of baitfish but a lack of flatheads. Here are the results from our Rally that night.


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't know how many members you have, but I don't believe every one of them caught 50 panfish in less than an hour in Yellow River. I know many people who bream fish weekly and rarely catch 50 fish a day. Ask fishwalton if he has ever caught a limit of panfish in an hour.


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## SurfRidr (Apr 24, 2012)

Interesting video. Clearly perspectives vary heavily.

Invasive species are almost always virtually impossible to eradicate. In North Carolina Reservoirs it is the Spotted Bass that people love to hate, due to effects on the largemouth populations. But they reach equilibrium in most cases, and a lot of lakes are better off for it in some ways at least. Patterns that once worked for a given species might not anymore, but those who adjust their tactics often end up with good catches.

The fish will adapt. The anglers have to do the same thing. One can debate the positives or negatives all day, but the fact is that like the Spotted Bass in Piedmont North Carolina, the Flathead will not be eradicated in rivers where it's been established, so it becomes more about learning to adapt to the new reality.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

SurfRidr said:


> Interesting video. Clearly perspectives vary heavily.
> 
> Invasive species are almost always virtually impossible to eradicate. In North Carolina Reservoirs it is the Spotted Bass that people love to hate, due to effects on the largemouth populations. But they reach equilibrium in most cases, and a lot of lakes are better off for it in some ways at least. Patterns that once worked for a given species might not anymore, but those who adjust their tactics often end up with good catches.
> 
> The fish will adapt. The anglers have to do the same thing. One can debate the positives or negatives all day, but the fact is that like the Spotted Bass in Piedmont North Carolina, the Flathead will not be eradicated in rivers where it's been established, so it becomes more about learning to adapt to the new reality.


Many people have been using the same methods for decades. When they no longer work they must find a culprit. As you said, the anglers who adapt tend to have great results.


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## Al.remoraking (Aug 20, 2016)

Glenn, are you suggesting the FWC stock flathead catfish for your benefit in area rivers?


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## Prowler (Apr 26, 2011)

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 769
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I don't know how many members you have, but I don't believe every one of them caught 50 panfish in less than an hour in Yellow River. I know many people who bream fish weekly and rarely catch 50 fish a day. Ask fishwalton if he has ever caught a limit of panfish in an hour.

Thanks Billyb...I spit coke all over my computer screen when I saw that!! I would sure like to find a whole like that right in the center of the river no less!!


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

I am so glad to hear that some tournaments are no release. I talked with a FWC biologist a while back and he said they were trying to make it illegal to release a flathead back into the river. Of course people like Cathunter are fighting that legislation. I have my own kill tournament every time I set lines. There won't be no flathead released by me when so many people I know would like to have a mess to eat.


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## jcoss15 (Oct 11, 2010)

IMO the flathead population on yellow river has plummeted in the last ten years, they used to be easier to catch especially on hooks. The main stretch of river we fish used to be loaded now it can be slim pickings for the elusive flathead. I enjoy fooling with them at times but I'm obviously not good enough at it to devote all my fishing skills to one fish...too much fun to be had with others...


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

Joss you are a very good river fisherman. Have you ever caught your limit of panfish in less than 1 hour? Every one of Cathunter's members have done it.


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## gastonfish (Mar 24, 2012)

Bream fishing yellow river is better than it has been in many years. I know this river as good as anyone and will tell ya there is no shortage. Also know of many holes full of bullhead. Same with bass, plenty. What that river needs is a good amount of high water during the summer to keep the outlaws and shockers off of it.


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## gastonfish (Mar 24, 2012)

How come no one hates striper? There actually stocked in the yellow river and are eating machines. I've caught plenty in the 20lb range. What do y'all think there eating??


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## jcoss15 (Oct 11, 2010)

billyb said:


> Joss you are a very good river fisherman. Have you ever caught your limit of panfish in less than 1 hour? Every one of Cathunter's members have done it.


No, not in one hour.


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## jcoss15 (Oct 11, 2010)

gastonfish said:


> How come no one hates striper? There actually stocked in the yellow river and are eating machines. I've caught plenty in the 20lb range. What do y'all think there eating??


They just never seemed to gain traction in YR, I have never caught one but that's not saying much.

Also, I don't hate the flathead at all, I like the idea of having a chance to catch a giant fish every now and then, but I'm not ready to honor them as some trophy gamefish either...


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

gastonfish said:


> Bream fishing yellow river is better than it has been in many years. I know this river as good as anyone and will tell ya there is no shortage. Also know of many holes full of bullhead. Same with bass, plenty. What that river needs is a good amount of high water during the summer to keep the outlaws and shockers off of it.


Iv taken guys up to Yellow River bream fishing and the look on their faces when I show them what they have been missing is priceless. Some of these cats have been fishing yellow river for years. One after another as fast as we can sling them.

Flatheads & bluegills have been my target all week.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

Al.remoraking said:


> Glenn, are you suggesting the FWC stock flathead catfish for your benefit in area rivers?


Why would you ask such a question? Why would they need to stock a fish that's self sustaining?


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

sI have been at Talquin since Thursday and moving to Seminole tomorrow for a week. Catching up on reading emails and forum news this afternoon.

When I get home I'll post some scientific evidence from other states that have studied catfish. Florida has some studies as well but they do not get to the real question of whether flats and blue and the public would be better served with new regulations. 

I have posted reference to specific official evidence in the past from the Carolina area, and asked Cathunter for his input on this information, but he never responded . He promotes his cause with a very narrow focus and without considering alternatives, compromises, or simply backing off and let nature take its course. There is certainly nothing wrong with advotating, but there is nothing wrong with enjoying how it is as well. 

In fairness it is understandable when a person or group becomes impassioned about their cause and can't see the forest for the trees.They think they alone have the answer and seem oblivious to anything different. What they offer promotes their way of thinking or advocacy. That's just the way it works. Personally, I have been there and been in this same situation. Then one day something came along that changed the whole game and a three year struggle came to an end with a just outcome. 

I believe the current law reads that no non-native fish of any kind can be stocked or caught and released in Florida waters. This is even printed on the FWC brochure about catfish. But due to the vagueness how it is written some pay it no attention and the state puts no effort into enforcement. What they need to do is clearly define the law and put some teeth into it or do the proper studies to determine the impact of flats and blues. When that is done then the public and advocates will have something to hang their hat on or not. 

A good example of the confusion for instance the big catfish tournament on the Apalachicola River each year near Wewahitchka clearly states in the advertising brochure flatheads and blues will not be released. On the other hand Cathunter clearly states in his rally advertising that anything over 15 pounds will be released. Is this confusion, or what? 

See the Wewa Flyer: http://www.floridacatfishclassic.com/pdf/Catfish%20Classic%20Flier%202016.pdf

There is certainly nothing wrong with promoting a particular fishery. There are a number of well attended catfish tournaments in the Florida Panhandle. Catching a big catfish is cherished by many and an industry has developed in some parts of the country where flat and blues are regulated. However, that does not mean the same thing is good for other states. With no regulation the industry seems to be doing very well in the Panhandle, but the state needs to clarify the current rules until they may be changed. 

So let the debate begin so we can all flap wings and crow about what we 
we think is best for flatheads and blues. Maybe FWC will eventually take enough interest and exert due diligence on the matter, and then everyone will have something credible to chew on.


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

Fishwalton I want to thank you for stating your opinion. Good luck next week at Lake Seminole.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

fishwalton said:


> I have been at Talquin since Thursday and moving to Seminole tomorrow for a week. Catching up on reading emails and forum news this afternoon.
> 
> When I get home I'll post some scientific evidence from other states that have studied catfish. Florida has some studies as well but they do not get to the real question of whether flats and blue and the public would be better served with new regulations.
> 
> ...


I followed Dan Dobbins and his research from 2000-2008 as they worked our NWF rivers doing samples and surveys. He would often send me their findings. They gave up the program. But today we have nearly 40 years of data and patterns to look back on. 

You will notice a change in the Apalachicola Tournaments rules this year. There will now be a voluntary release of catfish instead of all kill. I'm also good friends with Don who runs the tournaments, Id love to tell the whole story on how these events got started back in 1996 but that's for another debate.

This video is based on years of research and field studies by not only me and my people but biologist and researchers from coast to coast.

FWC was a big help in collecting data. It’s all public information for those who even care to read it.

I remember not long ago Bass fishermen would chunk Bowfin (Mudfish) onto the banks claiming they could wipe out populations of bass and bream. Without even considering bowfins are among the oldest fish that swims in freshwater.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

And through my research this is how Flatheads made their way into Escambia River. Nature did this.


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

gastonfish said:


> How come no one hates striper? There actually stocked in the yellow river and are eating machines. I've caught plenty in the 20lb range. What do y'all think there eating??



Maybe the question on this one is knowing the history of stripers in Florida waters. How did they come about and how were they viewed and treated by the legacy Fl Fish and Game Commission. I don't have a clue. 

Some years ago my brother-in-law was Chief of the Fisheries Division. I wish he were still around to discuss Florida fisheres.


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

Prowler;664956it9 said:


> Join Date: Aug 2012
> Posts: 769
> Default
> I don't know how many members you have, but I don't believe every one of them caught 50 panfish in less than an hour in Yellow River. I know many people who bream fish weekly and rarely catch 50 fish a day. Ask fishwalton if he has ever caught a limit of panfish in an hour.
> ...


No, I have never caught 50 bream anywhere near 1 hour....maybe 20 or 30, but not 50. Even 20 to 30 is very fast catching in my book. In fact it's very rare to get a limit, but I don't really try. If it happens, it happens, but usually I have a buddy adding his to the box as well. We got 54 keepers a while back and that took us all morning. 

Right now bream fishing is very good on the Choctawhatchee. I don't know anyone who baits and/or fishes for suckers, but there are probably a few.


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

My research shows:
Flatheads are invasive and need to be controlled. Bream fishing is not world class but barely so-so
You can't catch 50 bream in an hour. And I wish fishwaltons brother in law was still around to talk fishing


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## Al.remoraking (Aug 20, 2016)

fishwalton said:


> Maybe the question on this one is knowing the history of stripers in Florida waters. How did they come about and how were they viewed and treated by the legacy Fl Fish and Game Commission. I don't have a clue.
> 
> Some years ago my brother-in-law was Chief of the Fisheries Division. I wish he were still around to discuss Florida fisheres.


JB , your bil Dennis (Smokey) Holcomb was the Freshwater Fisheries division director( Tallahassee,Fl.) who hired me in 1982, for a position working at the Blackwater Fish Hatchery , Holt,Fl. Current , Blackwater Fisheries Center. 
He, Forest Ware , Dave Yeager , myself and several other fisheries biologist, fisheries technicians... have stocked area rivers of north Florida with striped bass fingerlings., since spring of 1990. 
It has been a long journey ,career working with this species of fish and hybrid Striped Bass., spawning adult fish , propagation of fry , fingerlings , adult fish.


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

Al.remoraking said:


> JB , your bil Dennis (Smokey) Holcomb was the Freshwater Fisheries division director( Tallahassee,Fl.) who hired me in 1982, for a position working at the Blackwater Fish Hatchery , Holt,Fl. Current , Blackwater Fisheries Center.
> He, Forest Ware , Dave Yeager , myself and several other fisheries biologist, fisheries technicians... have stocked area rivers of north Florida with striped bass fingerlings., since spring of 1990.
> It has been a long journey ,career working with this species of fish and hybrid Striped Bass., spawning adult fish , propagation of fry , fingerlings , adult fish.[/QUOT
> 
> ...


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## gastonfish (Mar 24, 2012)

Al.remoraking said:


> JB , your bil Dennis (Smokey) Holcomb was the Freshwater Fisheries division director( Tallahassee,Fl.) who hired me in 1982, for a position working at the Blackwater Fish Hatchery , Holt,Fl. Current , Blackwater Fisheries Center.
> He, Forest Ware , Dave Yeager , myself and several other fisheries biologist, fisheries technicians... have stocked area rivers of north Florida with striped bass fingerlings., since spring of 1990.
> It has been a long journey ,career working with this species of fish and hybrid Striped Bass., spawning adult fish , propagation of fry , fingerlings , adult fish.


I worked with Dave Yeager on the striper program years ago and am in no way complaining. My issue is that the Striper are no more a native fish than the Flathead. In fact the striper were actually stocked and the flathead made there way here naturally. I enjoy catching both and I do appreciate all the work these guys do.


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

gastonfish said:


> I worked with Dave Yeager on the striper program years ago and am in no way complaining. My issue is that the Striper are no more a native fish than the Flathead. In fact the striper were actually stocked and the flathead made there way here naturally. I enjoy catching both and I do appreciate all the work these guys do.


I think the controversy centers around the habits of flatheads and blues and whether it's a good idea or not to protect them by regulation. I'm not aware of any similar concerns on strippers. The matter on the cats will remain an issue so long as FWC fails to clarify their inconsistent approach. 

Such inconsistency does nothing but promote speculation, opinion, and emotions by whoever chooses to participate in any given discussion

Regulations prohibit release of flats and blues, but there is no enforcement. Some want to change the rules and others want to keep them as they are. So, due to bureaucratic indifference we have a controversy. 

FWC needs to come forward with their official position and how they will manage their position so everyone can understand and move on to follow whatever that might be.


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

I wasn't aware that you can't release a flathead. If that is so then why do tournaments release them.


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

billyb said:


> I wasn't aware that you can't release a flathead. If that is so then why do tournaments release them.



Two things. 1. FWC does not enforce the rule nor encourage compliance.
2. Knowing this those who advocate release are free to do as they chose.

Otherwords...to each his own!


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

Post the regulation that shows where it says its prohibited to release flatheads. Ill wait.


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

CatHunter said:


> Post the regulation that shows where it says its prohibited to release flatheads. Ill wait.


I'm not aware of a specific regulation on flatheads by name. The problem is they are non-native and therefore invasive. You can't release non-native species in Florida without a permit. You can catch them, but you can't release them. That's spelled out in a FWC brochure on flatheads. As I have stated before FWC needs to clarify the issue. That's the only way to settle the question. 
I will be in a FWC office later this week and will get the brochure and discuss what it means on releasing, and post the results.

In the meantime if anyone cares to read a report on the Choctawhatchee River this is the latest I could find. It does not address the overall impact of flatheads on native fishes in north Florida waters.

http://sites01.lsu.edu/faculty/smidway/wp-content/uploads/sites/115/2014/03/Dobbins-et-al.-2012.pdf


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

CatHunter said:


> Post the regulation that shows where it says its prohibited to release flatheads. Ill wait.




I woulda made you wait a lot longer


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

fishwalton said:


> I'm not aware of a specific regulation on flatheads by name. The problem is they are non-native and therefore invasive. You can't release non-native species in Florida without a permit. You can catch them, but you can't release them. That's spelled out in a FWC brochure on flatheads. As I have stated before FWC needs to clarify the issue. That's the only way to settle the question.
> I will be in a FWC office later this week and will get the brochure and discuss what it means on releasing, and post the results.
> 
> In the meantime if anyone cares to read a report on the Choctawhatchee River this is the latest I could find. It does not address the overall impact of flatheads on native fishes in north Florida waters.
> ...


If you read that PDF, it was written by Dan Dobbin, a biologist who I have been in-contact with throughout their investigation of flatheads in Florida before abandoning that program. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a few comments back. 

Bottom line Flatheads are an American Catfish- I don't care if they aren't native to this river vs that river evolution has been changing and moving these fish since way before we arrived.

What’s not American is Peacock bass and Grass carp who have been regulated by the state of Florida. It is prohibited in the state of Florida to kill a Grass Carp that's from thousands of miles away. Can you see what’s wrong with this country yet?


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## TFRIZZ30 (Jun 26, 2014)

CatHunter said:


> Can you see what’s wrong with this country yet?


I think there are much more important things wrong with this country than if it is illegal or not to release a catfish. Just my opinion




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

TFRIZZ30 said:


> I think there are much more important things wrong with this country than if it is illegal or not to release a catfish. Just my opinion
> 
> 
> From where I stand its all that matters. :thumbsup:


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## FishWalton (Jul 22, 2010)

Visited the FWC Regional Office today since I was already in the area. Picked up a copy of their brochure, "River giants of North Florida".Scanned only a small portion since the full brochure is way too large for PFF. If anyone wants a full copy send me a PM with your regular email address.


Now I'm moving on as well and plan to snatch a mullet tomorrow.


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## billyb (Aug 22, 2012)

Looks like this law is like those for illegal immigration, it is on the books but is not enforced. If it is illegal you shouldn't do it whether it is releasing a flathead or baiting trotlines with gamefish. In my opinion you are a lawbreaker if you do either one.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

fishwalton said:


> Visited the FWC Regional Office today since I was already in the area. Picked up a copy of their brochure, "River giants of North Florida".Scanned only a small portion since the full brochure is way too large for PFF. If anyone wants a full copy send me a PM with your regular email address.
> 
> 
> Now I'm moving on as well and plan to snatch a mullet tomorrow.


Once again that's not a rule. That's a quote from Dan Dobbins. Nowhere is it an official rule and Ill argue tooth an nail Flatheads are native to Florida. Trying to find the official rule is like trying to catch a flathead on Yellow River. Ive been on this quest for years only to come to the conclusion its never actually been official. And if it was it was over turned years ago.

Iv talked to old guys who tell me they remember seeing Flatheads in Escambia before the 60s. 

Remember when this was enemy? Rumors spread of how they decimate bass populations so tournaments were held to eradicate a fish that had been here for billions of years. We have to stop this way of thinking.


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## CatHunter (Dec 31, 2008)

I managed to get in-contact with some people that know the laws very well. 

They inform that it is illegal to transport flatheads from one body of water to the next. 

Its also illegal to commercially sell blue cats and Flatheads in Florida. 

It is illegal to cross state lines with Live Flatheads & Blue cats.

It is (not) illegal to release flatheads or blues after you catch them. They must only be released in that body of water.


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## JoeyWelch (Sep 25, 2009)

This isn't turning into one of those Pier vs Boat threads is it??


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## SurfRidr (Apr 24, 2012)

CatHunter said:


> I managed to get in-contact with some people that know the laws very well.
> 
> They inform that it is illegal to transport flatheads from one body of water to the next.
> 
> It is (not) illegal to release flatheads or blues after you catch them. They must only be released in that body of water.


That's actually how I would have interpreted the rule that was referenced. Would be weird to require people to harvest fish by law, but it does make sense they don't want people introducing species from one body of water to another. Too much bucket stocking goes on already as it is.


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## Try'n Hard (Oct 23, 2008)

jlw1972 said:


> This isn't turning into one of those Pier vs Boat threads is it??




River raper!


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## skiff89_jr (Apr 1, 2011)

Try'n Hard said:


> River raper!


River Roach :starwars:


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## sureicanfish (Sep 30, 2007)

I aspire to be a river raper, tired of the river raping me!


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