# Was it a permissible Warsaw grouper or Goliath/Jew



## FLbeachbum (Jul 17, 2008)

Click the link to Northwest FL daily news.

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/possible-18959-blooper-probes.html


----------



## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

Damn even a professional "But Dr. Christopher C. Koenig, an *expert *on goliath grouper who teaches at the Florida State University Coastal and Marine Laboratory in St. Teresa, said he has studied the picture and *believes:doh:doh* the fish was legal." has a problem identifying the fish...let alone four fisherman. Any questions at this point would be moot if it was me. What Grouper??? I don't have any Grouper.:doh

So if an *EXPERT* on Goliath believes it *is legal* then let it go. Think of all that money they will spend on the investigation when they can use it toward post cards about rule changes.


----------



## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

I saw this article but it is worthless w/ out :takephoto:takephoto:takephoto If they were talking about seeing the pictures then they should have added it to the story!!!:banghead

Purty dern funny though.....:letsdrink


----------



## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

http://www.apalachtimes.com/sports/daniels-7208-bay-fishing.html


----------



## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

> *Tuna Man (7/16/2009)*Damn even a professional "But Dr. Christopher C. Koenig, an *expert *on goliath grouper who teaches at the Florida State University Coastal and Marine Laboratory in St. Teresa, said he has studied the picture and *believes:doh:doh* the fish was legal." has a problem identifying the fish...let alone four fisherman. Any questions at this point would be moot if it was me. What Grouper??? I don't have any Grouper.:doh
> 
> So if an *EXPERT* on Goliath believes it *is legal* then let it go. Think of all that money they will spend on the investigation when they can use it toward post cards about rule changes.




:withstupid


----------



## Death From Above (Sep 28, 2007)

Either or I it is I bet it taste like shit.


----------



## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

In the picture the tail looks like a Warsaw to me. Straight, not fan like.


----------



## Couzin_It (Oct 6, 2007)

http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=87885&highlight=warsaw



Scroll down about 3/4 of the way and check out the comparison pic's of a goliath and warsaw grouper. Looks like a goliath to me.


----------



## Travis Gill (Oct 6, 2007)

Doesn't look like any warsaw I have seen


----------



## Yaksquatch (Mar 23, 2009)

Back off on the biologists. That kind of a picture is a pain in the butt to work with since body parts and proportions get messed up when fish get hoisted vertically like that. Also, not being able to look at the fish in person can be tricky or even looking at it after it has started to decay and/or loose colors/patterns. With fresh specimens in person you can spread the fins, look at their outline and count fin rays and spines. From the picture, all of those things are impossible or difficult to tell for sure.



Warsaws' first dorsal fin is distinctively taller at the front and as it goes back towards the second dorsal gets shorter. While goliaths' first dorsal is the same height off the fish's back the whole length till the second dorsal. The dorsal in the picture is laying down so you can't tell either way. The tail fin is partly folded so you can't tell if it is really round like a goliath's or more square like a warsaw's. Same for the pectoral fins on the sides, partly folded so can't tell for sure if it's rounded like a goliath or slightly pointed like a warsaw. Also, the colors/patterns that are very distinctive between the species when juveniles will fade with the age of the fish.



I do agree that it will be a waste of time and money if it turns out to be a legal fish. Ditto on more training on proper fish ID by fishermen on the water is always a plus.



Somebody should have skeletonized it. That would look pretty awesome displayed in an aquarium or something.



Alex


----------



## Yaksquatch (Mar 23, 2009)

> *Couzin_It (7/16/2009)*http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=87885&highlight=warsaw
> 
> 
> 
> Scroll down about 3/4 of the way and check out the comparison pic's of a goliath and warsaw grouper. Looks like a goliath to me.








Beat me to the comparison pics. Nice find man.



Alex


----------



## Tyler Massey (Oct 2, 2007)

Im no expert on grouper or anything but im gonna say from the pics on the other forum that its a goliath..


----------



## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

> *Couzin_It (7/16/2009)*http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=87885&highlight=warsaw
> 
> Scroll down about 3/4 of the way and check out the comparison pic's of a goliath and warsaw grouper. Looks like a goliath to me.


Here's the photo. Thanks for finding it. After looking at the photos, it appears to be a Goliath.


----------



## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm sure that this one will be debated until the cows come home or the DNA tests come in. If I was a betting man, I would have to bet that them fellows have caught themselves a Goliath Grouper not a Warsaw. Nobody counted gill rakers on the stud nor the number of spines but based on shape of the fins, the tail looks kind of iffy, shape of the head and coloration, that bad boy is a Goliath. So odds are they will be looking at a $600.00 fine from the state of Florida. Only God knows what the Federal Government will do but I'm sure those guys may end up donating funds to Uncle Sam for the next stimulus package.

Kim


----------



## Chris Couture (Sep 26, 2007)

I received this in a e-mail several days ago and said to my friend who sent it "That's a Jew Fish and is illegal to keep".


----------



## rauber (Oct 10, 2007)

there is a reason they didnt weight it..... i bet is was like: mmmm maybe its no warsaw after the second look... ohhh lets cut em up so nobody from fwc can tell....

if you are not 100 procent sure what it is.... let is swim unless its from so deep down that it is dead anyway.


----------



## Jhoe (May 4, 2009)

I thought it was a Jewfish at first look but i'm no expert and i wrote myself off. I also thought it funny that the guys felt the need to immediately clean a potentially world record fish.


----------



## Hot Reels (Oct 3, 2007)

Looks like a largemouth to me. LOL

Sky


----------



## fishn4real (Sep 28, 2007)

> *Orion45 (7/16/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Couzin_It (7/16/2009)*http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=87885&highlight=warsaw
> ...


How do we *know* that the fish labled as Warsaw in correctly identified?


----------



## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

I talked to a few of my fishing mentors this morning, aside from sounding like some extremist group (fishing regulations) they were all in agreement that the fish was a Goliath. I'll take their word for it. They also told me that 40 years ago you could catch a stud Warsaw like that in shallow water, 100 - 150 feet. None of them recall anyone ever catching a Warsaw in that size range in 80 feet of water. I was nice to have breakfast with a bunch of old geezers who have forgotten more about fishing than I know. They should write a collective fish tale book. Some of their stories will make you laugh until you cry.

Kim


----------



## bluffman2 (Nov 22, 2007)

> *fishn4real (7/17/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Orion45 (7/16/2009)*
> ...


Mitch.all warsaws 2nd dorsal spine is LONGER than any other...look in the picture and you can see that....also the flat tail is a indication...


----------



## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

I think the flat tail gives it away as a Warsaw. Look at the rounded tail of the Goliath as they are hanging. The Warsaw tail hanging to the left is also flat.. Warsaw


----------



## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

Body shape and depth along with coloration are all wrong for it to be a Warsaw. Tail shape on goliaths can vary slightly enough to where if "pinched", like it looks in the picture, it will have a flat appearance. I would say it was a goliath from the photo.


----------



## Eastern Tackle (Jul 6, 2009)

I think a new species of grouper has been uncovered.........the elusive Jewsaw Grouper.


----------



## lbhuntley (Oct 6, 2007)

*<U>ANGLER'S GUIDE TO FISHES OF THE GULF OF MEXICO</U> "d*ead give-away to identification of a warsaw grouper is that this is the only grouper in the Gulf of Mexico with 10 spines in the dorsal fin."


----------



## King Crab (Dec 28, 2008)

Goliaths, jewfish have that green yellow color! Its a jew fish! Can fwc tell by the fillets? Is the meat different between the two?:hungry


----------



## Sea-r-cy (Oct 3, 2007)

Either way, I would release a living fish of this size. Why kill such a great creature? Sea-r-cy


----------



## Nat-Light (Oct 9, 2007)

Here is another picture of the fish in the water. I think it's a jew fish. 












and a picture of Warsaw in the water.


----------



## Jhoe (May 4, 2009)

> *Sea-r-cy (7/17/2009)*Either way, I would release a living fish of this size. Why kill such a great creature? Sea-r-cy




for buckets and buckets of foodage? probably tasted like crap though to be honest.


----------



## bamachem (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Sea-r-cy (7/17/2009)*Either way, I would release a living fish of this size. Why kill such a great creature? Sea-r-cy


Me and you both. It's not like somthing that OLD is going to taste all that great anyway. Throw in the potential for a mis-identification leading to some VERY heavy fines and publicity that you simply do NOT want, and it should swim away.


----------



## Fiver (Nov 6, 2008)

> *bamachem (7/17/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Sea-r-cy (7/17/2009)*Either way, I would release a living fish of this size. Why kill such a great creature? Sea-r-cy
> ...


even small 30 lb warsaws aren't that great to eat in my opinion. They're much tougher than gag, snowy, yellowedge, scamp, etc.


----------



## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

Nat-light, is that picture on top a picture of the fish being questioned? If so then there is no doubt its a goliath grouper.


----------



## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

Capt. Ken you out there? You're expertise is needed....


----------



## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)




----------



## P-cola_Native (Feb 5, 2008)

It's obviously a jewfish. The only one in the story dumber than the fishermen is the "specialist." They need to fire that guy.:doh

Leave it to a professor at a college to get it wrong because he can't count the dorsal fins. Uh, how about just looking at the big dead jewfish hanging there. It doesn't look anything like a warsaw.


----------



## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Nat-Light, that is an awesome pic of a Warsaw and holding the dorsal spines in your right hand like that is perfect for identification because you can clearly see the longer second dorsal spine. BZ buddy, way to go.

Kim


----------



## deepsixrich (Oct 31, 2008)

Warsaw


----------



## cobe killer (Apr 13, 2008)

thats a jewfish all day. just look at the size of the mouth. the warsaw has a small mouth and headfor his size, thats why they are called polywogs cause of their funny shape.you coulg nearly crawl in the one that they caught. the mouth is HUGE! the dorsil would have been a foot long and kept for a trophy.


----------



## hebegb (Oct 6, 2007)

Uh, people...we have AN EXPERT on here.....





why do we not bow to her expert opinion?



(once it is given of course :letsdrink )


----------



## Brant Peacher (Oct 4, 2007)

Jewfish all day! There is no doubt....


----------



## stargazer (Oct 6, 2007)

For sure a Jewfish.


----------



## rauber (Oct 10, 2007)

it ended cut up not even being weighted... wonder why? the stress relief 2 out of destin used to have a jewfish pic on their webpage. they weighted it at haborwalk and got it through as a warsaw:banghead:banghead


----------



## 69Viking (Oct 30, 2008)

Without scientific proof nobody can say for certain what it was based on the picture. It has a flat tale like a Warsaw but coloring like a Goliath. Without something scientific to prove for certain these guys better not be charged with any crime. The fish was brought in with several people identifying it as a Warsaw, pictures taken for the newspaper, and then the fish cleaned. Nobody tried to hide anything. So they didn't weigh it, my guess is they had to clean it before the meat spoiled because we all know their boat didn't havea cooler big enough for it. 

This is just like the FWC to go after somebody after the fact based on a picture. Hell, halfof you on here could work for the FWC based on your snap judgements that it's aGoliath you came to by looking at comparison picturestaken many years apart. Imagine how this guy must feel. He goes from proud man to investigated man with all kinds offellow fishermen quick to judge him and send him to jail based on a picture.I remember back in the day when fishermen use to support oneanother, these days it's everyone for themselves and damn you if you catch something bigger thanme, it must be illegal! Geez people, let science solve it before making judgement on the poor guy and even then look at the fact several people might have mistaken it's identity, not just one guy.


----------



## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

> *69Viking (7/23/2009)*Without scientific proof nobody can say for certain what it was based on the picture. It has a flat tale like a Warsaw but coloring like a Goliath. Without something scientific to prove for certain these guys better not be charged with any crime. The fish was brought in with several people identifying it as a Warsaw, pictures taken for the newspaper, and then the fish cleaned. Nobody tried to hide anything. So they didn't weigh it, my guess is they had to clean it before the meat spoiled because we all know their boat didn't havea cooler big enough for it.
> 
> This is just like the FWC to go after somebody after the fact based on a picture. Hell, halfof you on here could work for the FWC based on your snap judgements that it's aGoliath you came to by looking at comparison picturestaken many years apart. Imagine how this guy must feel. He goes from proud man to investigated man with all kinds offellow fishermen quick to judge him and send him to jail based on a picture.I remember back in the day when fishermen use to support oneanother, these days it's everyone for themselves and damn you if you catch something bigger thanme, it must be illegal! Geez people, let science solve it before making judgement on the poor guy and even then look at the fact several people might have mistaken it's identity, not just one guy.


+1 :letsdrink:usaflag


----------



## captken (Feb 24, 2008)

Jewfish/Goliath--100%. Take a look at the Jewfish pic above posted by Tuna Man. Its tail isn't exactly round. Compare body shape of Goliaths vs Warsaws. 

In the summer, it is not very common to catch a big Warsaw in 60-80' where I can catch a half dozen big Jewfish/day in 30' or less in the summer. Well, I could if my back would take it.

If you want to see what A Goliath/Jewfish looks like under water and along side the boat, check this out. 

http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/video/Ken_and_Goliath.htm


----------



## Scotty_Zissou (Feb 14, 2016)

*Warsaw grouper*

It is very clearly a juvenile Hyporthodus nigritus, Warsaw grouper - see FishBase. Goliath grouper have a completely different color and shape of body, head and tail. Goliath grouper have a more rounded caudal (tail) fin. Chris would have no problem with this ID. Can confirm with shape of long dorsal spines. SBV NOAA Fisheries

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/fish/warsawgrouper.htm
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=1207&AT=WARSAW+GROUPER

http://www.fishbase.org/summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=16&AT=goliath+grouper


----------



## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Five and a half years later ...


----------



## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

Scotty_Zissou said:


> It is very clearly a juvenile Hyporthodus nigritus, Warsaw grouper - see FishBase. Goliath grouper have a completely different color and shape of body, head and tail. Goliath grouper have a more rounded caudal (tail) fin. Chris would have no problem with this ID. Can confirm with shape of long dorsal spines. SBV NOAA Fisheries
> 
> http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/fish/warsawgrouper.htm
> http://www.fishbase.org/summary/SpeciesSummary.php?ID=1207&AT=WARSAW+GROUPER
> ...


Digging deep. Trying to find some old threads saying that snapper are hard to catch?


----------

