# BAFFLED - let's the flames begin



## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

So a couple weeks ago I took my father and brother-in-law out fishing and ended up with a ticket for an oversized redfish. Those few of you who know me know that I practice catch and release 95% of the time, mostly fly fish, and rarely even keep fish. On this particular day we got into some slot reds and decided to keep two of the 20 or so we caught for the table. One of the two keepers was mis-measured and with the tail pinched (thank you FL WRD) was over 27" - they measured it closer to 28.

So today was my court date for being in possession of the single oversized fish. I thought I would walk in, pay my fine, and move on... not the case.

I've been advised that I must hire an attorney - can anyone recommend one?


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

asago said:


> So a couple weeks ago I took my father and brother-in-law out fishing and ended up with a ticket for an oversized redfish. Those few of you who know me know that I practice catch and release 95% of the time, mostly fly fish, and rarely even keep fish. On this particular day we got into some slot reds and decided to keep two of the 20 or so we caught for the table. One of the two keepers was mis-measured and with the tail pinched (thank you FL WRD) was over 27" - they measured it closer to 28.
> 
> So today was my court date for being in possession of the single oversized fish. I thought I would walk in, pay my fine, and move on... not the case.
> 
> I've been advised that I must hire an attorney - can anyone recommend one?


What is the fine for an infraction like that?

Edit: And who told you to hire a lawyer? Sounds like bad advice to me.


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, did they really tell you that you couldn't represent yourself? Talk about a quick way to turn a little fine into a major one...geez.


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## joebuck (Oct 1, 2007)

asago said:


> So a couple weeks ago I took my father and brother-in-law out fishing and ended up with a ticket for an oversized redfish. Those few of you who know me know that I practice catch and release 95% of the time, mostly fly fish, and rarely even keep fish. On this particular day we got into some slot reds and decided to keep two of the 20 or so we caught for the table. One of the two keepers was mis-measured and with the tail pinched (thank you FL WRD) was over 27" - they measured it closer to 28.
> 
> So today was my court date for being in possession of the single oversized fish. I thought I would walk in, pay my fine, and move on... not the case.
> 
> I've been advised that I must hire an attorney - can anyone recommend one?


Sounds strange. I am not an attorney, so maybe I just don't understand, but why can't you just represent yourself, possibly plead no contest, and have the judge levy your fine. Like I said, I know nothing about this and as logical as that seems, I am sure it is not that easy, even though it probably should be .......

I do not know of any attorneys who would take on that kind of case but I'll ask around and if I can come up with someone I'll send you a PM.

Best of luck to you.


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

According to the judge it was a misdemeanor and my brain was so baffled at the time I don't even remember what she said the maximum fine was but I do recall the officer who issued the citation saying $50-$500 I believe. (BTW - the officer also told me that someone from the court would be calling me to settle this prior to my court date which never happened and when I tried to call the court they told me I had to appear - he simply lied to me). The judge (Judge Kinsley) however made it quite clear that I must obtain an attorney and also made it clear that I could NOT use a public defender due to my monthly income. Now I KNOW why there are so many lawyers in this town.


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## ucf_motorcycle (Jul 12, 2008)

You must have plead not guilty then, correct?

If you plead no contest or guilty the judge would have told you the fine and it would have been over with....I think an attorney is going to cost more than the fine to begin with.

You don't need and attorney to plead not guilty they are probably just highly recommending it. But you better come up with a good defense and some evidence too.

But based on your story it sounds like you should have plead no contest. The fish was oversize you not measuring it properly is not a defense.


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

No opportunity to plea was given. This was an arraignment - it wasn't even an option to discuss the case or enter a plea.


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Something doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, I never trust anything that a ticketing officer tells me.

What was the measurement of the fish according to them? Did they take pictures or something as evidence?


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

The officer B. Pierdi kept the fish (put into a cooler on his boat). When we re-measured it it was close to 28 with the tail pinched. I don't mind at all admitting I mis-measured and screwed up here - I just can't believe how this is playing out and I have to believe it's a money grab on behalf of the city. BTW - there was a private lawyer waiting for me outside the courtroom with pen and paper in hand ready for my business.


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## Austin (Sep 30, 2007)

http://www.eregulations.com/Florida/fishing/saltwater/

Does not state in the regulations for Redfish to pinch the tail. Maybe that will help in your defense...


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## joebuck (Oct 1, 2007)

asago said:


> The officer B. Pierdi kept the fish (put into a cooler on his boat). When we re-measured it it was close to 28 with the tail pinched. I don't mind at all admitting I mis-measured and screwed up here - I just can't believe how this is playing out and I have to believe it's a money grab on behalf of the city. BTW - there was a private lawyer waiting for me outside the courtroom with pen and paper in hand ready for my business.


Sounds like an honest mistake and you are getting "hosed" by the system. Makes no sense to me that here we have a man that is willing to admit to his mistake, pay his fine and move on and the court system will not allow that to happen. No, why don't we just bog down the already "overloaded court system" by making this citizen, who wants to pay his fine and be done with this, hire an attorney and drag this thing out ... this might be one of the dumbest things I have heard of recently.

Keep us posted as to what happens and once again, best of luck to you.

BTW, I applaud you for being willing to man up and admit to making a mistake. IMO, if we had more people in society that had this kind of attitude we would be in a much better place.


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## joebuck (Oct 1, 2007)

Austin said:


> http://www.eregulations.com/Florida/fishing/saltwater/
> 
> Does not state in the regulations for Redfish to pinch the tail. Maybe that will help in your defense...


Unfortunatley, in the regs, it does say to compress the tail while the fish is laying on it's side. It is at the end of the chart on the next page.


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## Austin (Sep 30, 2007)

Ah, yep, you are correct... It sounds like they are just trying to make some money, or just trying to make you pay more than a simple fine (which it should be). Requiring you to hire a lawyer doesn't make sense for something like this.. Best of luck, let us all know what happens


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Sounds like the OP is getting hosed by the system.


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## sniper (Oct 3, 2007)

I didn't think they could require anyone to hire an attorney. There were people who represented themselves for murder cases. Seems stupid. Maybe see if you can talk to the judge.


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## Patoz (Oct 12, 2007)

Sounds to me like they might be planning on charging you with something more than a simple misdemeanor, and that's why they are saying you need a lawyer. I would double check and verify the exact charges. :whistling:


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## FishGolfDrink (Apr 19, 2011)

That sucks.. are you the same Asago from NGTO?


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

FishGolfDrink said:


> That sucks.. are you the same Asago from NGTO?


Yep that's me ... of course this would happen now that I live in Florida. If it was in Georgia I could certainly get a little help here after 15 years of dedication to conservation in Georgia and god knows how much time and $$ donated to the Georgia DNR.


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*Fwc*

You mean a FWC officer didn't tell you the truth wow that's never happened before


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## Instant Karma (Oct 9, 2007)

If the facts are what you say, & I believe they are, the FWC was on a power trip. Typical Barney Fife.

What a croc. This kind of thing really pisses me off..


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

How can you scientifically/accurately pinch the tail and measure a fish in circumstances like that on a boat if you are FWC?

I guess that I should make my personal slot limit 19-24" if I want to keep a red?


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## traqem (Mar 10, 2009)

I hate this for you. An honest guy trying to do the right thing who made an error. Also trying to take resposibility for it and the system won't let you. 

You have an absolute, unqualified right to represent yourself in any court in the land. Don't let them buffalo you into a lawyer if you are confident you can handle it. While I'm not a lawyer, I've spent lots of time in courtrooms all over the country and I've seen some unbelieveably stupid people represent themselves in very complicated matters they couldn't begin to understand, but the judes were forced to allow them to do it if they insisted.

Something is very wrong with this.


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

You have the RIGHT to representation but not the OBLIGATION...

No one can foce you to hire representation. I would go ahead and try to find a fair lawyer with a great plan of defense if he will do the case for less than the max fine... Lord knows if you have a lawyer, the state has to waste more dollars to build a better case...

Brent


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks for the advice... checking on laywers they all seem to say the same thing and have about the same price... they are all saying the fine should be minimal but all of their prices are 10x the fine.. seems silly to get a lawyer although this judge certainly did give me the impression I HAD to get one.


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## Sailing_Faith (Mar 11, 2009)

I wonder if it is POSSIBLE that the judge is tired of this FWC officer writing bogus tickets over such a small discrepancy?

Maybe the judge knows something that you are not seeing?

It seems strange that the judge would say such a thing without a reason.


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

You need to talk to a good honest lawyer (chuckle, chuckle) that will shoot you straight and not just tell you what it takes to get you to hire them. I'm sure in a 5-10 min conversation with a friendly lawyer and he would tell you exactly how to handle it w/out need for a lawyer.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Seems like you should be able to call or go in and talk to the prosecutor or the judge to straighten it out. Hiring an attorney for a fine like that sounds ridiculous.


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## 82whaler (Sep 28, 2007)

Something wrong here....Call Legal Aid of NW Florida Hotline 850-385-0029


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## FishnLane (Oct 1, 2007)

surely someone on here has had same experience..... I hate to hear that Asago. I know one was weighed in at a tourney. As it got warm, it expanded and was over 27inches. Guy said Oh well...too large. talk about holding one's breath.


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## gameon (May 19, 2010)

not to get off the subject but when it comes to the fwc good luck. 2 years ago I was hunting on wma [ escambia river ] was motoring back to the boat [ been hunting here 25 yrs. ] ramp fwc jumps out of the bushes like it was some kind of raid , it was dark anyway they told me i was night hunting [was bow hunting,no gun in the boat] their explanation was i shinned my spot light on the bank,and yes i did how the hell else you gonna find the ramp long story short $4500 12 court dats over a year ,was finally thrown out. GUILTY UNTIL YOU PAY FOR INACENT


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

What happens with a case like this, re: your fishing license?

Do they suspend it for a few years or something?


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## sig226 (Feb 7, 2011)

20 years ago when i worked at landfill i was in charge of some community service workers, serveral were there for redfish some paid fine and had about 100 hrs community service. ive also seen a guy ist day caught a tub of 10 in redfish didnt even know what they were game warden said have any luck boy smiled said i sure did showed him all fish game warden turned red told him to carry them all out to bay and throw them away and let him go. i also saw a game warden measure one with tape measure to curve of fish, not right had to go to court, game warden was wrong, not right should give you leeway ist time, it can happen to anyone with all regulations, some times i throw back legel fish cause im scared of wardens, some have been very nice and let me go with a warning for expired fishing, didnt know it, they like all people some good some think they are king of country, good luck you can get free consulation usually. we ought to start a fund to help people with honest mistakes, those with power rule even if you are right, call senator nelson just isnt right


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## sig226 (Feb 7, 2011)

next time carry a pair of clippers, cut tail shorter


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

i knew someone who had 5 undersized red snappers on his boat and fwc wrote him up and kept the fish. we were all tripping out that he would lose his licence and maybe his boat with a big ole fine. he went to court and pled guilty and the judge fined him like $200.00 and that was the end of it. something does seem amiss here. especially with the fish being so close and it being an obvious mistake in mearsurement technique.:no:


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## finfever61 (Oct 5, 2007)

Contact the State Attorney's office and find out who it is assigned to. Ask to make an appointment and let them know you would like to settle this before it goes to court. Odds are he/she is so overloaded they would most likely like to settle this. I wouldn't hire an attorney prior to talking to them.


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## capt'n slim (Feb 8, 2008)

Buddy got a ticket for nwrong size jack supposedly a greater aj and wasn't or something to that extent judge told him as he was about to plead not guilty that he was not a bioligist and he was gonna take the fwc's word cause he knew no diifernt between a bass and a snapper. Just sayin


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

If you check the symbols listed with Red Fish in the Florida 2011 Saltwater Fishing Regulations you will see that one of the symbols listed calls for measurement with the tail pinched.

Unfortunately pleading ignorance of the law usually does not work so well. In this case the regulations state that you are responsible to make yourself familiar with the regulations and to abide by them same as on your fishing license. 

Like the one guy said, your best bet would be to call the State Attorneys Office and see if you can just plead no contest and pay the fine. A lawyer would cost more than the fine itself in all probability.


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## axman (May 11, 2011)

In your defense this fish was within the slot limit when it was boarded and fully alive.The eventual death and deflated swim bladder, relaxation of the fish caused an additional .50 in total length in the fish. Question is to the court is the law of slot fish for live fish or dead fish . This case is thrown out.


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## MGlover54 (May 11, 2011)

Can someone explain WHY Florida is the only state within 3 states of us that does not allow *1* oversized fish to be kept per day?


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## Framerguy (Oct 2, 2007)

Fine or not, lawyer hired or not, innocent or guilty, I would do my best, between now and your court date, to make this as public as possible! If length is an issue regarding whether a fish is legal or not, it seems to me that the original length fish in question should be presented as evidence of the true measurement. After a month or so of lying around in a freezer, I wonder if that fish would still measure whatever it was when freshly caught??

I would also contact the FL Attorney General about this matter. It sure doesn't hurt to explore each and every avenue of defense and lines of help in the matter. The worst they can say is "No" and that is a very small word to use by a very small minded lawyer to foist the problem off on someone else.

We have politicians who, throughout the years to benefit their careers and ego, have passed one law after another, piggybacked laws concerning one thing onto a more important bill concerning something entirely different so it gets passed with little or no question and now we are left with so many stupid redundant laws that the average person doesn't know half the time if he is legal or not in the eyes of the courts!! I find it entirely possible that somewhere in our legal system there may well be some vague law that states that, if you catch a fish that is over slot size, on a Thursday afternoon, and the ambient temperature is above 82° F., you will be required to hire an attorney to represent you if you are caught by a member of the fish police who had a cheeseburger and fries for lunch!! That doesn't sound much more ridiculous than your situation when it comes to using a bit of common sense on the judge's part.

Good luck with it and keep us aware of the outcome. Sounds like the whole bunch of us who took time to respond to your story should just march into court with you and act as character witnesses for you. Maybe that judge will take note of a dozen irate and pissed off fishermen standing in front of his/her bench wanting to know which Johnny on the Spot he/she scooped their brains out of!! :thumbdown::whistling::thumbdown:


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## Emerald Ghost (Mar 11, 2008)

First question : Have you ever been fined for a similar offense ?
If not, then I find this most troubling to me. The Judge is ordering you to hire an Attorney for an M-2 ?
And SHE knows that your legal fees will far outweigh the fine.
Very troubling, and all over one fish that was possibly one inch too long.


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

Just an Idea that may help.

Chinese Tape Measures are not regulated and have considerable variations in them. I have seen this personally.

I wonder if you could politely ask the judge what Nation Built the measuring device that was used to find you in the wrong with such a small difference in measurement , what tolerance variations are acceptable from the manufacturer 
I would be happy to represent you for free and even wear my other shirt.


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## whyworry (Aug 17, 2010)

Your citation should have, on your ticket, a reference to the exact statute you are charged with violating. Have you compared the statute to the charge? It sounds like the judge MAY be trying to give you a hint of a technical error by either the officer or the state's attorney. Also, do you have the actual charges as written up by the state's attorney? Make sure those charges, if you have them, match the statute referenced in the ticket, not just the statute numbers but the content also.


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## hogdogs (Apr 19, 2010)

HisName has a great point... If the device does not have a certain degree of accuracy, it cannot be used in commerce. If the measuring devices used by fish cops are not either state issued or on a list the officer can choose to buy, there is no way it can be construed as accurate.

These parameters should be considered before writing a man a ticket in excess of 20X the price of a good tape measure... let alone a chinese toy that can be off as much as nearly a quarter inch per foot!:thumbup:

Brent


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

Emerald Ghost said:


> First question : Have you ever been fined for a similar offense ?
> If not, then I find this most troubling to me. The Judge is ordering you to hire an Attorney for an M-2 ?
> And SHE knows that your legal fees will far outweigh the fine.
> Very troubling, and all over one fish that was possibly one inch too long.


Thanks for all the advice guys - I'll let you all know how this plays out. To answer your question though - I've NEVER been fined for anything like this or anything else as a matter of fact aside from a couple speeding tickets. This will be the first time I have ever been "on trial" for anything in my life.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

asago said:


> this judge certainly did *give me the impression* I HAD to get one.


Ok, So did Judge Kinsey ORDER you to get a lawyer or did Judge Kinsey SUGGEST you get a lawyer? It is her job to make sure you understand all of your rights, and one right you have is to be represented by a lawyer. If she failed to advise you of that she failed in her performance of her job.

Like others have said, I would simply call the State Attorney's office, find out which prosecuter will handle your case and tell them what the situation is. You will have to formally show up to court again to make your plea, but if thats what you want to do, I am sure that will be the end of it.

The only other scenario I can think of is if you were on some kind of probation and this violated that probation and you were looking at prison time. I think its pretty obvious this is not the case though :thumbsup:


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## SHunter (Jun 19, 2009)

Pinched tail sounds like a nebulous rule. I bet a lot of folks are making mistakes and getting caught on this one. The lawyer bit is strange. She might have had a headache from her case load that day too and just not want to deal with it. If that Law Line is on BLAB tonight why don't you call them.


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## Nitzey (Oct 9, 2007)

Unfortunately, I have been the victim of over-zealous FWC. Pinch the tail and you are 1" over. Well, pretty close. By now you have been arraigned, right? My suggestion is to take the easy way out; it will cost you about $200 but you will have no record. If you hire a lawyer, you may be able to get off, but it will probably cost you a lot more. You can defend yourself, but basically the law was broken, and so what is your defense? Pinching the tail is stupid, but in my opinion many fishing regulations need to be simplified.


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## SteveFL (Aug 2, 2010)

It's a shame we have to learn like this. Here's a link showing methods of measurement: http://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/regulations/fish-measurement/


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## CurDog (Nov 14, 2010)

Just a couple of tips: 
"IF" you plan on pleading "Not Guilty". 
On the day of your court hearing, (NOT your plea day),

TIP #1 - Bring the measuring device that you actually used to measure your fish with on that day, to court.
TIP #2 - The issuing (ticket) Officer will testify 1st, after which time, You or your Attorney will be able to ask questions of this Officer.
Your Question to him should be " Officer, did you measure my Redfish that you've stated was over-sized"? (If this isn't the Officer, nor is he in the court room, Ask for a Dismissal).
Your next question should be " Can you describe to the court How you measured this fish"? 
Then, after he answers, You ask him "IF" he has the measuring device he used with him in court "Today" ? 
If he says "NO", then after you finish questioning him, You/Your Attorney should ask the Judge for a Dismissal, as the Officer can not prove "Today" in court, that the measuring device he used to measure your fish with, "is or was" an accurate measuring device. (You argue that your ruler is correct and you measured 27").
The ASA (aka. Prosecutor), may ask the Judge for a "Continuance", and the Judge will then ask you if this is Okay/Agreeable to you. 
You should say "No your Honor it isn't". Then tell him how it would be a Burden on you and your family (money,time, loss work), to come back. Then Say, "I'd like to proceed today, and if the State is not prepared, I like to request a Dismissal."
Provided, it goes this way, and You Do Not Accept a continuance, the Judge, 99% of the time will dismiss your case. 

BUT, if the Officer brings the measuring device, prepare for a max. of $500.00 fine, and loss of Fishing License for 1-3 years. 
Unless you can get a Dismissal from something else, like if he's had Special Training on measuring fish, and he didn't bring that document to court to prove it. Or you could stress to the Judge that the Officer has had special training to measure fish and you've not. 
Or if the Officer just can't remember this particular incident. Or he remembers, but gets the weather way off, like he "Testifies" it was a cloudless day, when actually it was cloudy with rain or visa-versa. But be prepared to bring in a True copy of the weather for that day, such as one from the weather bureau. Newspaper dated the day of the ticket and the following day, showing the discrepancies. 

Good Luck with it..


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## Bullshark (Mar 19, 2009)

Something like this happened to a buddy of mine and another one a few years back. They both got lawyers and both have family clout and both had to pay huge fines anyway. I would check your charges and make sure they won't put you in jail and just bring a check book for the massive fine they will throw at you. That's just what I would do. Down south they have been taking away fishing rights for a year plus a fine.


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Not to derail this conversation, but what is the point of pinching the tail to measure a redfish or a snapper?

Edit: Is there a real reason for doing that or is it a way to catch unsuspecting people like the OP and make money off of fines?


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## Bobc5269 (Feb 10, 2011)

*not measuring up*

Seems to me there should be one method of measurement for all the applicable "V" tails. Simply adjust the slot to accomodate what ever rule the fish rule gods feel is adequate for the species. I know the "read the rule" response will be regurgitated here, but we working folks that only get to go every other week or so usually just jump in the boat when we can. Ain't a whole lot of planning; we just see an opportunity and seize it. Seems unfair to require the average JoeBlow to have to know whether to 'pinch' or 'V' measure. Personally, the "V" seems more manly. We've always been measured from there anyway...................


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

It's obvious that everyone sympathizes with you in your circumstance here. However you did get stopped and you did get cited. So for what ever reason you kept the fish you will have to pay the fine and have done with it.

To all the nebulous thinkers, when you buy your fishing license and sign it, you are agreeing to abide by the regulations. Those very same regulations tell us all what we can catch, when we can catch it and how to measure it as well as the condition of the fish when it is landed. Those same regulations also tell us to check for changes to the regulations so we remain in compliance with them.

A few of the posts offer methods to make a fish "legal" and it makes me wonder how they came up with the solutions. It also makes me wonder about the character of the poster.


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## H2OMARK (Oct 2, 2007)

I must be missing something here. Seems like the OP was/is trying to find out why he needs an attorney to pay the ticket. Do you need an attorney to pay a speeding ticket in florida? Maybe that's the difference between a traffic violation and a game law, albeit they are both misdemeaners. He has already said he has done wrong and wants to get it behind him by paying the fine.


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## SteveFL (Aug 2, 2010)

Kim said:


> It's obvious that everyone sympathizes with you in your circumstance here. However you did get stopped and you did get cited. So for what ever reason you kept the fish you will have to pay the fine and have done with it.
> 
> To all the nebulous thinkers, when you buy your fishing license and sign it, you are agreeing to abide by the regulations. Those very same regulations tell us all what we can catch, when we can catch it and how to measure it as well as the condition of the fish when it is landed. Those same regulations also tell us to check for changes to the regulations so we remain in compliance with them.
> 
> A few of the posts offer methods to make a fish "legal" and it makes me wonder how they came up with the solutions. It also makes me wonder about the character of the poster.


Wow. So I guess we can be assured you've read all the regulations and are up to speed on them all. Have you read every statute... and understood every statute.... take a long hard look at the following link. Understand, once you click on a single text doc, there are many more levels of regulations that follow.

http://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/regulations/rules-by-species/ 

They've already created a regulation monster that I bet even confuses the authors and editors. Then we come along as stand up citizens to have fun, enjoy the resources and ........ oh well.


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

Hey Kim, when I have to explain to the FWC officer what the law actually says, the law is too difficult. Most people fish for recreation. It is hard to recreate when literally every time you go fishing you have to re-read the law just to be sure you are compliant. It is asinine. Pinch the tail, don't pinch the tail, stand on one foot and rub your stomach. Give me a break. Why not adjust the law so that you measure a fish only 1 way and the size limits are adjusted accordingly. Oh, nevermind, that would be too simple.


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

It'd be an interesting defense to try to use "jury nullification" in this case.

I'm not sure if a defense lawyer can even bring it up before a jury though.

The "law" doesn't like it, but it basically says "Yeah, he's guilty, but the law itself is BS,(measuring fish differently) so we think he's not guilty..."

It's a LEGAL opinion, the courts HATE it because I think it is on the fringe of the legal system.

I've been told if you want to get out of jury duty, simply ask the judge about "jury nullification", you'll be dismissed post-haste.

Jim


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## 20simmons sea skiff (Aug 20, 2010)

thats about like my son getting ticket yesterday for 34 in a 25, should be just a talking to offense ist time, makes you scared to even keep a close size fish, cause they can find a way to measure them and get you. i have had quite a few stop me and i say im sorry i didnt know and they say ill let u off this time, i think it was a honest mistake, feel for u, even if you are right its hard to beat the system


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## 20simmons sea skiff (Aug 20, 2010)

we should all pitch in and have a forun lawyer for member of forum, ill pitch in 20 to help, if every gave a little it would help him, it could be anyone of us.


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## asago (Nov 11, 2008)

Following up on this...

I had my second court date this morning. Different judge (thank god). The funny thing is, they had me on the docket for ANOTHER arraignment (to set another court date). If I hadn't spoken up the saga would have continued. 

Anyway... this Judge was completely different from Kinsley. I advised him that I was guilty, told the story about the fish measurement, that it was a single fish and I just wanted to make things right. He let me do a "pre-trial diversion" in which I was able to pay $50 to the court and $150 to another entity (Escambia corrections?) - anyway, I had to drive there to pay with a money order which I didn't mind at all after the first court date fiasco.

So - I got it taken care of today and I DIDN'T get a lawyer like Judge Kinsley told me I had to do (thanks for the advice).

I did however speak up although I was told not to by the judge - and if I hadn't, I would have been back in court in June.

so here's what I have learned:

1. Don't screw around w/ the FWC. If a fish is within 2 inches below or above slot don't keep it, it's just not worth it and it doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

2. The officer who issued the citation is a liar - he told me I could pay a fine and avoid court. That was simply not true at all

3. Judge Kinsley is not a fair judge and I think it was even wrong for her to ask everyone "how much money do you make" to determine if they can use a public defender. Having to disclose my salary in front of everyone in the court made me very uneasy. The Judge today instead asked "can you afford an attorney" which seems much more reasonable to me. Also Judge Kinsley did not allow any explanation whatsoever as to the situation. Judge Simon (today's judge) did and he was fair in my opinion. Also Judge Kinsley advised me that I had to have an attorney - this simply isn't true.

4. Speak up. If you follow the rules of the court and don't defend yourself you will never resolve your case.

5. All of the parking near the courthouse is one hour maximum only. Court takes longer than that. As far as I can tell it is another way to collect money from taxpayers (I saw several tickets issued). I did NOT get a ticket because I parked in a private lot (I figured after this mess I would rather fight with a private entity rather than the county) - and I lucked out and didn't get a ticket although I saw 4 tickets on cars in the one hour spots as I walked to mine.

Glad this is over and thank you all for your advice.


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

glad you got it taken care of...so, the total fine for 1st time offender single oversize redfish is basically $200??


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## joebuck (Oct 1, 2007)

Glad you got it all put to bed and that you decided to speak up. Thanks for sharing your saga with us, it may help someone else in the future.


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## mdrobe2 (Oct 12, 2007)

I think that was the judge I had to see- asked me how much money I made (a hell of a lot more than most of the people in court that day- maybe even the judge herself). It does suck. I got a ticket for putting a beer can in the water- I was in a no wake zone following the no wake rule driving a 14 ft john boat with a tiller steer motor. I would NEVER put a beer can in the water, but I freaked out because I thought they were going to ticket me for open container- did not know it was OK to drive a boat with an open container if you were not over the limit- .08. I think I had to go to court twice because the idiots at the court did not know the law themselves. The second time I went to court they still did not know the law, sent me downstairs to pay a fine, then called me back to court again after that. It ended up being a fine of like maybe $150- who cares. I would have donated a good five hundred or so to litter clean up efforts just out of a sense of personal accountability for making a bad decision. It's a freaking joke. I had already contacted a friend who is a prominent local attorney and he told me not to waste his time or my money hiring him to defend me. Bottom line, getting a ticket from FWC is tough. No less than getting one from a state trooper.


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