# Lets talk about fish fighting techniques for bottom fish



## Rampage (Apr 10, 2008)

I know everyone has there own "Way" of fighting fish. I am not talking the just legal size of each species. I'm talking about the ones with shoulders. So I have the hardest time with amberjacks. As an example this summer I was throwing big Yo-Zuri poppers to AJ's in the 40+LB range and getting hookups and I would end up pulling the hooks or the fish would take me in the wreck and cut me off. So in my mind I am doing something wrong. I was using a Penn 850SS spinning reel loaded with 65lb braid and I tried with the drag tight as I could get it..Pulled hooks.. then let the drag off a bit.. cut me off in wreck.. Just couldn't win.. I have no problem with just legal jacks and a little over. Just get butt handed to me every time by these big boys... any suggestions for next time???


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## panhandleslim (Jan 11, 2013)

You need to really understand what your drag is doing. Only way to know is to 'scale' it with a scale that registers to the point that the drag 'breaks'. Scale doesn't have to be outrageously expensive but it has to have a marker ring on max. weight achieved. I've used Catillon (USA made) and some cheaper models but it should not be too cheap. You can make the marker ring by just splitting a piece of PVC pipe if your scale doesn't have one. Hook your hook on a wooden handrail or tie the line on; warm the drag with a few practice 'rips' and then see what you are looking at. Crews that hardly ever have a line or knot failure, 'scale' the reels every day. Once you tell me what tackle you have, we can talk drag settings. 

Are you using braid or mono? In what depths are you hooking these fish? Even if hooked at the surface what is the depth to the wreck. What rod, reel and line are you using? (OK. You have mentioned the reel and the line.) What rod? Exact number on the rod. How many times has this happened and do you have an idea of the general size of the fish?

Mono is going to be more forgiving but with 10% stretch you could end up in the wreck while thinking you still have a cushion. Jacks have to be allowed to run but you need to have a discouraging amount of drag on them. I like rods that take care of some of that surge. Lots of backbone but a somewhat forgiving upper section.

The reel is fine. I mean, you could go to a Stella but for general use at a good price your reel is adequate. Braid is not so forgiving of the quick surge. Knots with braid have to be 'tight'. And by 'tight', I mean tied correctly. Actually all knots have to be correct but braid just doesn't forgive. 

I've beat 90+ lb. Amberjacks senseless with reels in that range (10000 Stella) and 65 lb. braid. Rod just an inexpensive 7'0" Oceanmaster Light Tackle Series. Rod is designed for Tarpon but for the little money that I paid it has what it takes for a Bass Pro Shop rod.


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## TeaSea (Sep 28, 2013)

deleted -- after I re-read, it didn't make sense.


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## rustybucket (Aug 18, 2011)

Step 1: Get them away from the wreck...

Sometimes they naturally run away from the wreck, let them run and follow them with the boat. Once you get them away you can play/work them. Worst thing you can do is fight the fish on the wreck. If you're anchored drop a ball and come back and re-hook after the fight.

A mono leader or flouro leader may help you as well as it gives a little shock absorber, will reduce the pulled hooks when you crank the drag.


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## Lyin Too (Aug 31, 2009)

Wish I could help, I have the same problem. I guess thats how they get to be bigguns! When I do occasionally do land a big jack, grouper and sometimes snapper, they routinely have broken hooks in their mouths. So I guess its just not you and me!


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## Tim_G (Feb 22, 2008)

There are several ways, but this is the easiest that I've found and doesn't hurt my back at all:

Step 1: Hop on Recess in the morning. Bring plenty of snacks to share.

Step 2: Once at the spot, break out a mingo rod or flyline (this step is critical).

Step 3: Holler words of encouragement such as "Get em Tim!" or "Get em Cliff!" once the grouper or AJ is on. 

Step 4: Watch the big grouper or AJ come to the surface.


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## recess (Oct 8, 2007)

TIM_G said:


> There are several ways, but this is the easiest that I've found and doesn't hurt my back at all:
> 
> Step 1: Hop on Recess in the morning. Bring plenty of snacks to share.
> 
> ...


Lol !!!! Haha to funny . Thanks buddy .


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Which poppers were you throwing? Sashimi or Sashimi Bull ? If you were using the Sashimi did you upgrade the hooks? What size hooks did you use?

What length and type of leader?

Has the Penn 850 SS drag been upgraded? Out of the box the max drag was about #11. Did you go max drag and then palm the spool?

What make of rod and what are the manufacturer specs on it?


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Big jacks need big tackle to land consistently. I prefer to let the rod holder do the work with super heavy line and tackle.


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## RMS (Dec 9, 2008)

sniperpeeps said:


> Big jacks need big tackle to land consistently. I prefer to let the rod holder do the work with super heavy line and tackle.
> 
> 
> You can't expect to use poppers with treble hooks to pull 40+ pound AJs away from wrecks. You need 3x or 4x strong single hooks to have a reasonable chance of not pulling or breaking the hook with the drag necessary to pull the fish away from the wreck.
> ...


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Rampage likes the thrill and excitement of watching a big AJ blow up on his popper/lure and the ensuing battle and that's a different kind of fishing than dropping a big live bait down on heavy gear.

Starting with your reel, #65 braid is more than adequate for popping big AJ's. Knowing that you have been broken off on the wreck means that you are aware of where it's at in relation to where you are fishing distance wise. Keeping in mind how far you cast, how much you reel in prior to hook up gives you an idea of how much line the fish needs to wreck you. Using metered braid makes keeping track of how much line is going out easier. Terminating the mainline with a Bimini Knot (60 - 100 turn) will let you use loop to loop connections. You may want to consider upgrading the drag disks to HT100 if not already done or check with Ocean Master to see if there is a better alternative for the Penn 850SS.

Not sure what kind of rod you are using but since you have wrecked a few times and it has held up to all that, it appears to be adequate.

Yo Zuri Sashimi poppers have a flimsy treble hook for big AJ's so it would be better to change them out for something like Owner ST66 4X 2/0 or even a ST76 5X 2/0. The Sashimi Bull popper come with a ST66 2/0 so that should be fine unless you want a bigger treble hook. On the other hand you might want to opt for the Owner Raptor type hooks (8/0 thru 10/0 depending on lure size), also called inline hooks because of how the eye is in relation to the hook shank. Many people prefer the Raptor type hook even with the occasional missed hook up because they cause less damage to the fish, easier to remove and safer for the angler handling the fish. Some people like using a single assist hook to fight the fish directly from the main line removing the lure as a lever for a hooked fish.

Williamson J5, Rapala Subwalk 15, OTI Komodo and Maguroni, Yo Zuri Orca are also productive lures for AJ.

A leader is a handy thing to use, not so much for it's "shock absorber" characteristics but rather for abrasion resistance against chaffing and structure. For AJ I prefer a double wall wind on with #80 fluorocarbon leader, where the loop to loop connection is off the spool. On a seven foot rod this would give me about a 10 foot leader. 

For terminal connection tie the leader to a ball bearing swivel using the AG Chain Knot. Bearing swivels with grommets for the terminal connection are even better. Connect your lure to the bearing swivel with a #150 split ring. 

Once you are hooked up, #11 of drag will wear down a #40+ AJ eventually if you didn't have to worry about getting wrecked in structure. Knowing where the wreck is in relation to where you are will let you know how much line you can sacrifice to drag. Easing the boat away from the wreck upon hook up is a good idea (do you have one or two more guys throwing to the AJ's on the surface, might make a difference on moving). Multiple hook ups can make easing away not the easiest thing to do if not impossible.

To wear the fish down to where you can stop and turn it, it will take some line but make it earn it in effort. Big AJ's are called reef donkeys for good reason and that means strong and stubborn. A TV show screaming drag is not what you want, if that's what is happening it is time to palm the spool. Let it take some line but make it pay for every foot of line but you will pay for it too. Boat handling can make a big difference here by running down the fish to gain line. If the fish takes the line under the boat don't be afraid to dip the rod into the water (rod/line angle) until the run is stopped and you can walk it around or the boat is maneuvered to give you better position. 

You have one advantage over the guys fishing the high end reels with #45+ drag available at the twist of the knob. That is, you won't have to worry about having so much drag on that you get pulled to the gunnel, bend the bail and loose the fish because you can't reel in any more line. Tight lines to you!


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## Rampage (Apr 10, 2008)

THANKS guys for all your suggestions!! I will put them to use next time I am hooked to a submarine.  As for the rod and reel I do have a new drag ht-100 drag stack on the reel and it is smooth as butter. The rod on that reel is a older Penn boat/spinning rod that has a lot of back bone with the sashimi bull poppers. Maybe next time I will grab the Stella/Terez rod that was right next to it in the T-top holders.. I just like my old 850SS. I probably was a little outgunned every time.

I do love to see big fish swimming with there backs out of the water and crushing a popper. Nothing like it

I will make up a few of those popper rigs KIM and give them a shot. Maybe my odds will go up and land a few of those donkeys!


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## foxtrotuniform (Nov 11, 2013)

Kim said:


> A leader is a handy thing to use, not so much for it's "shock absorber" characteristics but rather for abrasion resistance against chaffing and structure. For AJ I prefer a double wall wind on with #80 fluorocarbon leader, where the loop to loop connection is off the spool. On a seven foot rod this would give me about a 10 foot leader.



How do you tie your braid to you leader? I've tried various loop-to-loop connections, and lately I've been using a super glued Yucatan Knot. But with heavy tackle I have a hard time keeping the knot small enough to feed cleanly through the rod guides. Any suggestions?


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## Dynamic (Oct 3, 2007)

I like the Red Phillips knot.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

foxtrotuniform said:


> How do you tie your braid to you leader? I've tried various loop-to-loop connections, and lately I've been using a super glued Yucatan Knot. But with heavy tackle I have a hard time keeping the knot small enough to feed cleanly through the rod guides. Any suggestions?



I like tying a Bimini 25-30 twist is all you need in the braid then a reverse Albright connecting the flouro to braid. I have never had that connection fail.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

A knotless loop to loop connection is the most streamlined connection you can use. A knotless loop to a bimini twist loop is the second most streamlined (braid). 

The following video shows how to make a dual walled wind on leader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYBYRY0pgyk

The Palusjustfishing site is a great reference source for the breaking strengths of various braid and monofilament lines as well as knots tied with them (as well as how to tie the best knots with them). If you want o see what your lines, leader, made leaders or knot breaking strength really are, he has instructions for how and what to send to him for testing on his website.
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/contact.htm#1

Sometimes challenges arise from the it has never failed me knot as shown in the following video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezmzjoXmtzg


To borrow a page from the fly fishing world to make a really tough leader for jigging or live bait fishing around structure known for big fish and cut offs, check the following videos on how to make the twisted leader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IofvuXnmRNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ereGGMEAsa8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4zp3mBwFOk


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

I like reading knot tests and line ratings.....but I like experience better


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

All that complicated and time consuming stuff is great....until you have to rig it on the boat after you get broken off. 

My challenges with my "it has never failed me knot" is that no matter how hard I try, I just can't get it to fail me. 



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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Guys like Paul and Basil save us a lot of time and money by giving us information that can be applied immediately to help answer questions that are asked concerning different types of lines, leader materials and terminal connections. Kind of like the questions people ask here on the forum about what braid or knots to use. Some people like specific data to help make a better selection.

A simple example could be; "What hollow core braid should I spool my tuna popping reel up with"?

On Paul's site they would find that the Jerry Brown white 12 strand #40 has a breaking strength of about #69, the #60 about #95, the 16 strand #80 at about #140 (which just happened to be more than the 12 strand #100), the white 16 strand Power Pro #40 has a breaking strength about #58, the #60 about #76 and the #80 about #120 (which is about the same as the #100). The diameters of the lines are also listed which will let you get a fairly accurate estimate of how much line will fit on your reel. This is the kind of information that helps people choose what will fulfill their needs and help make a better selection. 

On top of that someone could send line, leader material and wind on leaders for testing with state of the art equipment and he doesn't charge you for it. So for the cost of postage he could test the bargain line you bought online, the rigs you use to fish with or the new leader design you came up with and send you the results if you were interested in that kind of information. At the same time it expands the sites library of tested brands and weights which is made available to the public.

Sometimes you just have to use common sense and realize that something like twisted and wind leaders must be made in advance and packed with your gear because it would be very difficult to do on a boat. Most people will try different rigging methods and terminal connections until they find the ones that they feel confident with and once they do, tend to stick with it. What works well for one person doesn't mean that it's going to work for everyone else. That's the great thing about having a lot of different information available about what we can use because it doesn't limit our choices, enables us try out new things and perhaps find something we have more confidence in.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Good grief.....


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

I have seen, (and used), International 80 on a standup broomstick with a 3# Egg sinker and 5# bonita for bait. 130# Mono for line. Hook fish, drive away from wreck and land fish. Point being, don't under size tackle near structure. RMS up there is dead on. Match your tackle to your target. Don't need a 20 paragraph explanation for that...


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Downtime that's a great description of how to do it using heavy tackle but it's not in the same category as throwing a popper with spinning gear, which is what the OP was asking about. The post about the leaders was in response to Foxtrotuniform's question in his leader connection post and the four paragraph post gives an example of how available information can answer questions we may have about line, leader material, leaders, knots and terminal connections, which also applies to his question.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

No, that was an example. He is getting beat from wrong tackle for the job. He asked how to fix it. Get appropriate tackle. Simple answer.

Open water over rocky bottom where you can play the fish forever, spin tackle may be fine. 
Wreck fishing, it ain't gonna cut it on large fish.


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

If the question was "let's talk popping AJs around structure" then my answer is simple. Do not use a leader and tie the braid straight to the popper. It's make-or-break and if that fish gets you in the structure then it's not going to matter much what the leader is unless it's 130lb or better. I used to make fancy popping leaders and stuff for Tunas and AJs but not anymore. My popping rods are rigged with my braid straight to the lure. 

Your local shops can help with this stuff too.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

The OP and I admit myself derive great pleasure from throwing surface lures at big fish, even if they are around structure. Some people enjoy the excitement from catching a glimpse of the fish breaking the surface just before it smashes your lure or the total unexpected white water blow up from below followed by a battle that pits the angler's skill against the strength and endurance of the fish. It may be on the learning curve but it sure is fun.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Rampage said:


> I'm talking about the ones with shoulders.
> 
> As an *example* this summer I was throwing big Yo-Zuri poppers to AJ's in the 40+LB range and getting hookups and I would end up pulling the hooks or the fish would take me in the wreck and cut me off.
> 
> ...


Why I answered the way I did...


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

There's the beauty of an open public forum because it allows a lot of different information to be given, just like this post and all of the information and preferences' may be found useful by some and just portions of it by others, so in the end it's all good.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Some people give advice on experience with what works, what doesn't, and what is practical. Some are good at using Google and the Internet to find a lot of info that, while sometimes ok as an information source, often is not practical. It is also very obvious when one recommends advice on a subject they have very little real experience with. You can't get good at fishing by surfing the Internet.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't known you nor have I ever fished with you. Your post make it obvious that you are one of the pros whose opinions are the only ones that are acceptable. It has got to be an incredible experience to know sight unseen what I have actually tried out,have done and what my experience is. You posted it online so it must be true, but then what the heck is all this stuff?

Rampage I'm sorry for the derail on your post, I didn't intend for it to become a personal affront thread, same thing to all the rest of you PFF members.


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

Umm... I'm not on anybody's side here in ya'lls "argument", but posting a picture of how much tackle you own doesn't really prove anything Kim.

Show pics of fish for that purpose. 

I whole-heartedly agree that links such as the ones you posted are helpful suggestions, but some of you guys hang on to every word written in them as if they were "law". As far as I'm aware of, any fisherman who puts his gear to the test out there on big fish has just as good of an opinion as one who makes the tackle that is being used. Real life situation is all that matters, not a line hooked up to some machines that slowly pull tackle apart and say it took "this many" pounds to do so. I fish 200 days a year for everything from Bass to Blue Marlin and I have a lot of very serious and demanding customers who bring tackle to us and trust in our connections and experience in rigging. Many leaders, splices and other forms of rigging I've done for customers have gone through some of the most extreme tests there are including fish over 1000lbs and fights exceeding 10 hrs. I agree with many things these sites address with rigging but there are many "rules" so-to-speak I've read that are just not true or incorrect altogether.

Loop to loop connections are super strong and I do use them for many purposes, but for the scenario the OP posted, having all that additional tackle will be that much more lost if he doesn't actually stop the fish. I've caught AJs to just over 100lbs and up to nearly 90lbs with spinning gear. It takes brutal gear around structure and if popping is the tackle desired, then it can be done, but I would cut as many connections out of the equation as possible and test one connection that goes directly to the source. AJs are hardly line shy and the main line connection will not spook a fish. I understand and agree with the general application of a mono/fluoro leader and its resistance to abrasion compared to braid, but if a large AJ gets into structure with any kind of momentum, its going to break you off with anything shy of 130lb leader. Heavy line and go straight to the plug, lock it down and show that bastard who is at the top of the food chain.

Anyway, going back to lurking. Carry on.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Kim said:


> I don't known you nor have I ever fished with you. Your post make it obvious that you are one of the pros whose opinions are the only ones that are acceptable. It has got to be an incredible experience to know sight unseen what I have actually tried out,have done and what my experience is. You posted it online so it must be true, but then what the heck is all this stuff?
> 
> Rampage I'm sorry for the derail on your post, I didn't intend for it to become a personal affront thread, same thing to all the rest of you PFF members.



If the shoe fits wear it pal. I named no one in my post. Also, I'm not some kind of guy that thinks my way is the only way at all. In fact, I learn something new every time I go fishing with others. That's how you get better, you watch what successful fisherman do and apply it to what you do. Your problem is that you are so obsessed with Internet factoids and videos coupled with not having your own boat so you end up doing way more Internet surfing and not enough fishing. It shows in your posts and advice.

But since you want to make it personal, how about stop giving your "expert" opinion on stuff that for the most part you have only read or tried in your garage. Every single one of your posts where you give "your advice" is always a long post with a ton of references regarding YouTube videos and knot tests and never from experience. No, I have not fished with you but I have heard how you fish and your level of expertise as long ago as 3 years ago and know of 6 people off the top of my head who have been on a boat with you. Newsflash, the reviews weren't good. Don't get me started on the slew of erroneous and bad advice given via posts on this forum. The first two that come to mind are the upside down pin rig and the "rigged swimming mullet" that was actually a threadfin herring. Now I don't particularly like to get in a pissing match about this kind of thing but for the love of God, stop trying to be an expert on everything and just go fishing. 


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## recess (Oct 8, 2007)

What what !!! 
Everything on the internet isn't true???? Crap gonna have to start all over.


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

...


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## Dynamic (Oct 3, 2007)

:thumbup:


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## scott44 (Aug 17, 2013)

I connect my leader to my braid with a swivel via a double wrapped 9 twist clinch knot. Sometimes she fails so I retie it and then loosen the drag a little.:shifty:


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## JoeyWelch (Sep 25, 2009)

Everybody here is wrong!!!

I'm Right!


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

What the hell are you smoking up there Joey?!?! You know damn well you learned everything you know from watching Mark Sosin


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## ashcreek (Oct 4, 2007)

We met Mark Sosin at a Mardi Gras Parade when I was like 13 and then went to a saltwater sportsman seminar in west mobile, super nice guy. He and my dad stayed in touch for years and he fixed my horrible form with a fly rod. You would be surprised how nice that guy is and how much time he will spend with someone who is willing to listen... LOL totally not relevant but neither was the majority of this thread! Just made me smile when chris mentioned his name!


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*AJ*

the best way to catch them is at Joe Patties my Master card Knot never fails and if it does I just throw a Visa at them


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## baldona523 (Mar 2, 2008)

This has not been mentioned that I saw, but there is no reason to pull hooks on Big Ajs you need to improve your tackle and most likely your hooks. Guys regularly use 80w and 130w reels with 130lb mono and just gun the boat away from the structure, if they can do that and not consistently pull hooks then you are pulling hooks for a reason outside of having too stiff of drag. As said, potentially change your hooks first. 

I also think your Penn 850ss is not adequate tackle for big AJs over structure. As mentioned, they have max drags of 11-15lbs when newer high end spinning reels have max drags of 25-60lbs.


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## panhandleslim (Jan 11, 2013)

And so, we come full circle. I don't think anybody is throwing poppers with a 130W reel. Just an opinion. 

Everybody is correct regarding an AJ in structure. When he gets there, it's game over. If you really want to be successful in the game of Poppers around structure, stay AWAY from the structure. AJs tend to roam around a wreck and they will wander off from time to time. Just keep a ways away from the wreck and like Chris said, tie direct to the Popper. With all the water blowing up, they are looking at the splash not the line. Plenty of huge AJ, GTs and 70+ lb. Roosterfish have been beat this way. The last part is to set your drag right at the limit until you are sure you are well clear of structure. Finally, trebles are going to pull because they can be hooked anywhere in the head, mouth or body. Like stated before, change to singles and when you hook up it will usually be positive.


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