# tank O2 cleaning



## dsar592 (Oct 12, 2007)

I need to get an aluminum 100 O2 cleaned. I'm new to nitrox diving. I have not called any dive shops so I thought I would ask here first. Do all dive shops in the area do this and what is the going rate for this service. The tank is in hydro but will need to be vip. Thanks Ken


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

This is a crock. 

If a tank is going to have less than 40% o2 there is really nothing that needs to be done.

If you plan on putting more than 40% 02 I would take the valve off and apart, soak it in simple green and replace the o-rings with vinton and use 02 acceptable grease.

I have two ponies that hold pure 02 which I also scrubbed out the inside with simple green, rinsed and dried. 

Next time your driving down the road take a look at a welders o2 setup. Not quite immaculately clean and he is putting flame to it!

Holy Sh** this is what the dive pros charge 

<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 293.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid" vAlign=top width=391><P style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Cylinder & Valve Oxygen Cleaning *(does not include parts)*</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; WIDTH: 1.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid" vAlign=top width=144><P style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">$60.00</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

O2 cleaning is not terribly complicated, but there are some areas that require more care.

At MBT, we require all NITROX tanks to be O2 cleaned because we "partial pressure" fill - meaning, we start with 100% O2 in the tank and then "dilute" it with air. Every mix is a essentially a custom mix.Wecharge $35 for the cleaning, VIP, and Fill with up to 40% - including parts. 

Shops that bank premixed nitrox don't need to worry as much about O2 cleaning because the tank isn't exposed to O2 above 40%(althoughsome of these shops will still require the cleaning).

Once a tank is O2 cleaned, it doesn't have to be re-cleanedunless it has gotten contaminated. You can still use the tank for air as long as you get the fill from a clean compressor and fill station.


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## dsar592 (Oct 12, 2007)

thanks for the replys. they did help.


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

Good point EvenSplit. If you are throwing pure 02 in an empty tank to partial pressure fill, it is proabably good idea.

More on this later.


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## Clay-Doh (Oct 2, 2007)

Haa haa Brian...You said "probably a good idea"!

*Not *sticking your toung in a light socket is probably a good idea too! oke Just kidding buddy.

If I'm not mistaken, most shops use the partial fill method, where you are getting 100% pure O2 pumped in! And I don't think any shop will fill without that punched sticker. $35 is a great price, since that includes you VIP too!


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## SCUBA Junkie (Oct 2, 2007)

Dive pros uses bank mixing, and will put nitrox in a non-stamped cylinder. They will not go over 40% or pump pure O2 in one not cleaned.


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## jameswirth (Feb 12, 2008)

Dude,

Just take the valve off, put some simple green in there.. wash it out a few times. Flush some of that through the valve too. Look in the tank, it should be clean.. no particles, scale, white powder from the AL,or anything. Now you're good to go. People get really **** on this O2 clean garbage. It is a way for dive shops to charge you more money every year. You know, there is no law that tanks have to be hydro'ed or VIP'ed every year. smoke, mirrors, more money out of your wallet, etc. If you do the above you're good forpartial presure fill nitrox or pure O2.

If it is banked Nitrox, you could put it in a rusty tank half full of gasoline and you'd be fine...


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

> *jameswirth (7/16/2008)*Dude,
> 
> Just take the valve off, put some simple green in there.. wash it out a few times. Flush some of that through the valve too. Look in the tank, it should be clean.. no particles, scale, white powder from the AL,or anything. Now you're good to go. People get really **** on this O2 clean garbage. It is a way for dive shops to charge you more money every year. You know, there is no law that tanks have to be hydro'ed or VIP'ed every year. smoke, mirrors, more money out of your wallet, etc. If you do the above you're good forpartial pressure fill nitrox or pure O2.
> 
> If it is banked Nitrox, you could put it in a rusty tank half full of gasoline and you'd be fine...


As long as you don't put more than 500 psi of pure O2 into a tank before putting air into it you are fine. As for the hydro of a tank it MUST be hydroed at least every 5 years to be LEGAL its the law. As for the VIP you are correct but try and get a tank filled at a shop without a VIP it's an unwritten law so to speak. As for the **** about O2 here's what can happen if you have a dirty or contaminated line in the charging system of pure O2. Charge that cylinder with pure O2 very slow or it will make a very very big booming sound!!!


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

I think I read somewhere..(I will have to find the exact reference), that the laws of tank hydro only applies to vehicles transporting cylinders across a state line.

Im not 100% sure on this and will see if I can find the book/article which stated it.

Of course you might have trouble with a dive shop filling the thing.........


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## jameswirth (Feb 12, 2008)

You're correct Brian.

There are no laws about recreational use of SCUBA tanks and filling them out of hydro. If you are commercially transporting them on a state/federal road then yes, you must address it. If you're a dive shop or just an individual with your own tanks...then fire away.

Dive shops need to make money, that is what keeps them in business and useful for us. Hydros/VIPs help out with that. You also don't need any sort of cert to dive, but it is a good thing to have.

Most people's insurance companies will require them to hydro, VIP and check certs before a dive.. so they may be bound that way, but not by the law.

-james


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

Found it:

According to Vance Harlow's

Oxygen Hacker's Companion..

"It is completely legal, according to the DOT, for an individual(or a shop,for that matter) to fill privately owned tanks which do not have a current hydro! Nor are the tanks in a stationary cascade required to be hydroed. That isnt to say it's a good idea, just that, by the letter of the law, it's not required."

I am not condoning this practice. Just searching for the truth.

"Just the facts ma'am"

Tunis


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

The "truth" is that the DOT will change the rules as they see fit on the spot if it suits them. If there's not a rule that specifically says "YOU DON"T HAVE TO ....", then assume that they'll apply the rulesas they need- or want - them to be.

DOT, FBI, NCIS, EPA, and especially Dept. of Homeland security have taken a new interest in SCUBA, including cylinders. If DOT finds a way to make money, stand by..... DOT fines for a single "minor" hydrotest related offenseSTART in the tens of thousands of dollars.

I can't speak for other shops, butthe revenues we see coming from VIP's, Hydros, and O2 Cleanings don't amountto much, especially if you consider theresources involvedin doing them. 

As for the "Truth", our shop policy states that we will not fill a cylinder that has not been properly inspected or hydro tested, nor will we put O2 in a cylinder that's not O2 clean. It's a safety issue, and it has directly prevented injury and/or death at our store on more than one occasion. We VIP our 145+ rental cylinders at least once a year (usually more often), and we usually condemn a few of our own tanks each year.


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## jameswirth (Feb 12, 2008)

I think Bmoore is going to get a chubby over this one.


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

Im not busting chops here. 

I have a simple question. It has nothing to do with policies. It has to do with the law of the United Sates or the State of Florida.

Is it illegal to fill a scuba cylinder if it does not have a hydrostatic test stamp less than five years old?

What constitutes a "minor" hydrotest related offense? Or a major one?

Better yet what contitutes ahydrotest related offense?


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

Im not busting chops here. Sure you are, but I'm game...

I have a simple question. It has nothing to do with policies. It has to do with the law of the United Sates or the State of Florida.

Is it illegal to fill a scuba cylinder if it does not have a hydrostatic test stamp less than five years old? To my knowledge it's not an illegal act to fill. It is however illegal to transport in public. I'm not going to waste my time digging through the DOT regs and notices or CFR's- it won't change anything in my world. You're welcome to if you'd like.

What constitutes a "minor" hydrotest related offense? Placing the hydro stamp in the wrong location on the cylinder, making a clerical error in a logbook - i.e. wrong date, Getting the stamps out of order.

Or a major one? Illegally transporting full untested cylinders via a public road. Not properly labeling the transport vehicle or cylinders. Exceeding the maximum alloted transport weight without a permit.

Better yet what contitutes ahydrotest related offense? Illegally stamping a cylinder that has not been tested. Making a bogus stamp on a cylinder.

We are very lucky that SCUBA cylinders and diving in general has been largely left alone by the feds. This has allowed the sport to grow and stay reasonably affordable for us. It's the folks looking for a conspiracy that will eventually lead to the DOT and others making things difficult. They have graciously left us alone-let's not piss them off.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Evensplit, You are 100% correct I beleive your dive shop and all the dive shops are doing an excellent job with cylinders because of the safety history of the local area shops. I can't remember one incident with cylinders. As for the initial question in the first post, Just take your tank and have it O2 cleaned at a dive shop, get it filled with Nitrox of your choosing and prey that the vis offshore improves so we can ALL go diving and stop nit picking something we cannot and doesn't need changing.


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

I am not attacking any dive shop, MBT or otherwise...with the exception of one that I found online researching this question. 

They stated "It's against the law to fill a tank out of hydro". I emailed them and asked them to give information on which law and actually got a response. They did not know of any such law. I do admire their honesty but would not be posting such a thing on a web site without knowing it is the truth.

Evensplit, I guess you know my mind and intentions better than myself. I am not looking for a conspiracy but in all honesty I am just trying to find out the exact LAWS GOVERNING THE FILLING AND TRANSPROTATION OF HIGH PRESSURE CYLINDERS. They have not been easy to find. 

You stated that checking/testing a tank prevented an injury or death. This is conjecture. Unless you have a time machine you cannot know this for a fact. Then again..."just the facts ma'am".

Yes, you should not waste time researching the Dot regulations and the laws concerning hydrostatic testing of high pressure cylinders. You, after all own a dive shop and handle thousands of tanks a week. No need to know what laws govern these procedures. 

I'll do it for you. (Then I can be doing contract labor for MBT and stand a chance at winning the Guns and Hoses Tournament, not a dig on you Rich or Rich SR.)

How do you know if it is illegal to transport a tank out of hydro via a public road if you do not know the regulations?

Did someone tell you this? What was the source of this information?

According to Mr. Harlow, "I should mention here that the DOT regulations only apply to tanks used in interstate commerce." I take this to mean transporting them across state lines.

Now I did find some information about miss-labeling tanks. Stamping them without actually hydrostatically testing them. Which appears to be a no-no but I have not verifed this with any authority. Sounds reasonable enough and hopfully the DOT will have some answers. I have the number for the Federal Dept of Transportation and the State of Florida Dpt of Transportation and intend to contact them today.

And actually the vis is not that bad. You just have to go long and deep and get under the crap on top. It opens up nicely about 50-60 feet.
But boy is it dark after the sun gets lower than high noon!


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

txtPostI am not attacking any dive shop, MBT or otherwise...with the exception of one that I found online researching this question. 

They stated "It's against the law to fill a tank out of hydro". I emailed them and asked them to give information on which law and actually got a response. They did not know of any such law. I do admire their honesty but would not be posting such a thing on a web site without knowing it is the truth. 

Evensplit, I guess you know my mind and intentions better than myself. I am not looking for a conspiracy but in all honesty I am just trying to find out the exact LAWS GOVERNING THE FILLING AND TRANSPROTATION OF HIGH PRESSURE CYLINDERS. They have not been easy to find. 

You stated that checking/testing a tank prevented an injury or death. This is conjecture. Unless you have a time machine you cannot know this for a fact. Then again..."just the facts ma'am". We have found and condemned tanks that had bondo on them,had been welded, had visible cracks in them, tanks that had silicone caulk in the threads, tanks with stripped threads in the neck, etc. etc. etc. If that's what you're going to call conjecture, then I guess you're right.

Yes, you should not waste time researching the Dot regulations and the laws concerning hydrostatic testing of high pressure cylinders. You, after all own a dive shop and handle thousands of tanks a week. No need to know what laws govern these procedures. 

I'll do it for you. (Then I can be doing contract labor for MBT and stand a chance at winning the Guns and Hoses Tournament, not a dig on you Rich or Rich SR.) I don't remember seeing you there, and your statement is pathetically childish.

How do you know if it is illegal to transport a tank out of hydro via a public road if you do not know the regulations? 

Did someone tell you this? What was the source of this information?

I've spent more time than I'd care to recall studying the legal guidelines of this business, and I'm not going to waste my time re-researching the CFR's - I get periodic updates to changes in the regs. The CGA guidelines can be bought for a significant amount of money. I did it once, don't need to again. If you follow the trail long enough, it will lead also to the EPA and OSHA. Don't forget local codes and ordinances. Homeland Security is also involved (lightly for now thank god). For a little extra fun add a little extra oxygen (24% or so), and the rules change, especially for aluminum cylinders.

According to Mr. Harlow, "I should mention here that the DOT regulations only apply to tanks used in interstate commerce." I take this to mean transporting them across state lines. 

Now I did find some information about miss-labeling tanks. Stamping them without actually hydrostatically testing them. Which appears to be a no-no but I have not verifed this with any authority. Sounds reasonable enough and hopfully the DOT will have some answers. I have the number for the Federal Dept of Transportation and the State of Florida Dpt of Transportation and intend to contact them today. 

Let me know what they say. Just keep in mind that you may not want to ask questions that you don't really want to know the answer to. I hope you don'tbring attention to something that will screw things up for the rest of us.The best advice I can pass down came from someone in the compressed gas industry - "Don't f*** with the DOT. When they're done taking all of your money they'll through you in jail."


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

I owe everyone an apology. I was wrong. It IS illegal to fill a cylinder out of hydro.

CFR Title49 Sec. 173.*34* Qualification, maintenance and use of cylinders.

(a) General qualification for use of cylinders. (See Secs. 173.1 
through 173.30 for requirements applying to all shipments.)
(1) *No person may charge or fill a cylinder *unless it is as 
specified in this part and part 178 of this subchapter.


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

Ok finally I foundtheanswer I was looking for. 

Sorry, but it took me a few days to get all the information.

The above quote is from DOT *Regulation 173.34*. *section a-1* This is just a small piece of the *PAGES of legalese*.....:banghead


The entire regulation can be found here:

http://hazmat.dot.gov/sp_app/approvals/regs/173.34.htm

"1) No person may charge or fill a cylinder unless it is as 
specified in this part and part 178 of this subchapter. A cylinder that 
leaks, is bulged, has defective valves or safety devices, bears evidence 
of physical abuse, fire or heat damage, or detrimental rusting or 
corrosion, must not be used unless it is properly repaired and 
requalified as prescribed in these regulations."


So....we have to now reference the "subchapter, part 178"


so we scroll down through the legalese..

Our tanks are Dot-3A, DOT-3AA (steel) and DOT-3AL (Aluminum)

Retest and Inspection of Cylinders \1\
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minimum retest
Specification under which pressure (p.s.i.) Retest period
cylinder was made \2\ \3\ (years)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*DOT-3A, 3AA.................... 5/3 times service 5, 10, or 12 (see
pressure, except Sec. 173.34*


*Well fud!* What is it?* 5 years 10 years or 12 years?:banghead*

12) A cylinder made in conformance with specification DOT-3A, DOT-
3AA, DOT-3B, DOT-4BA or DOT-4BW (Secs. 178.36, 178.37, 178.38, 178.51, 
178.61 of this subchapter) having a service pressure of *300 psi or less* 
that is used exclusively for methyl bromide, liquid; mixtures of methyl 
bromide and ethylene dibromide, liquid; mixtures of methyl bromide and 
chlorpicrin, liquid; mixtures of methyl bromide and petroleum solvents, 
liquid; or methyl bromide and nonflammable, nonliquefied compressed gas 
mixtures, liquid; that is commercially free of corroding components, and 
that is protected externally by a suitable corrosion resistant coating 
(such as galvanizing or painting) and internally by a suitable corrosion 
resistant lining (such as galvanizing) may be tested every 10 years 
instead of every five years, provided that a visual internal and 
external examination of the cylinder is conducted every five years in 
accordance with CGA Pamphlet C-6

Well our tanks have a working pressure *over 300 pis..so more legalese*..


(16) DOT-3A or 3AA cylinders. (i) A cylinder made in conformance 
with specification DOT-3A or 3AA *with a water capacity of 125 pounds or 
less* that is removed from any cluster, bank, group, rack or vehicle each 
time it is filled, may be retested every ten years instead of every five 
years, provided the cylinder complies with all of the following--

(B) *The cylinder is used exclusively for air* (GOOD SO FAR)


10 years perhaps...*NO!*

(E) The cylinder is not used for *underwater breathing*; *(BAM! FIVE YEARS*)


*But wait! Who do these regulations actually apply to?*


TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER I--RESEARCH AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF 
TRANSPORTATION

PART 173--SHIPPERS--GENERAL *REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS *AND PACKAGINGS
--Table of Contents

Soooo more research is required....


According to Brian D. Basura of http://brianb.org/ whom I contacted, a do it yourselfer in the diving industry..

" Brian,

It?s a *CGA and/or DOT regulation governing the ?Interstate Transport of Compressed Gas Cylinders?. It?s not a ?Law??
*
The dive industry has adopted this regulation as a guideline and their liability insurers have mandated they abide by it as a defendable standard in court cases."

A little legalese so I asked him the direct question:

*So in other words I cannnot be charged with a criminal offense for having a full "out of hydro" cylinder and a dive shop cannnot be charged for any type of offense for filling a tank out of hydro. Correct?*


His reply.."*That is my understanding?"*

*A little vague for me...lets confirm his statement....*


so....

I called Washington DC, the *Federal Department of Transportation*.

According to the* DOT* their regulations apply to *commerce*. *Tanks transported for business purposes*. *Not to me in my Toyota Highlander unless I am conducting commerce. And not to the guy filling the tanks. He is not transporting them on public roads. Unless he picks up and delivers the tanks and charges for the service. (commerce)*

I asked them these questions specifically. The response, "These regulations do not apply to a group of guys out to have a good time." 

This Cameran fellowspoke in laymen terms. He cut out the legalese....


*DOT in Washignton DC, 202-366-4000, spoke with Cameran Satterthwaite. He was quite familar with the above referenced regulation.*


Mr. Vance Harlow is* partially* correct. *There is no law*, *and the regulations apply to vehicles transporting cylinders on public roads for commerce purposes.*


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

OK Brian. You can play sea lawyer all you want.If you get busted, I hope the judge will see things your way.

I'm still not filling out of date tanks.In black and white it'sultimately a safety issue. But I guess I can send everyone over to your house to get them filled?

And there are 2 "D's" in *Fudd*. 

:letsdrink


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

LOL Evensplit!

Dont send em my way! I have no compressor YET!

But I dont think FUD has two D's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

Computer term coined by IBM.

But I'll consult my attorney!

Anyhow's I understand the safety concerns and especially the insurance aspect. Just wanted to get the low down on how the actual laws and regulations applied.

over and out!


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

> *bmoore (8/1/2008)*LOL Evensplit!
> 
> But I dont think FUD has two D's.
> 
> ...


This is why he is called FUDD with two D's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd


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## bmoore (Oct 10, 2007)

I wasn't calling anyone FUD I was using it interchangeably with FU**.

It stands for fear uncertianity and doubt.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

> *bmoore (8/1/2008)*I wasn't calling anyone FUD I was using it interchangeably with FU**.
> 
> It stands for fear uncertianity and doubt.


That's funny. Because Evensplit's nickname is Fudd.:doh


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## Evensplit (Oct 2, 2007)

But for an entirely different reason....:letsdrink


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## jameswirth (Feb 12, 2008)

tunis


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