# Lionfish invasion



## Nitzey (Oct 9, 2007)

I am posting this from Marina Management: 

I want to alert you to an issue with potentially devastating impacts on our fisheries, and therefore, our local and state economies. My comments are focused on the situation in the Panhandle, but this crisis exists in the entire Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean.

The attached fact sheet provides information on *Red Lionfish,* an invasive non-native species that has recently infested the waters of the Panhandle. Right now, they are decimating the juvenile fish population on our natural and artificial reefs. Local divers are reporting that the lionfish population has gone from nearly non-existent to exploding over the short course of approximately three years. At some locations this invasive species has totally eradicated native fish populations. 

As one diver stated_, “Lionfish are a threat of biblical proportions. Like water-breathing locusts, they eat and eat, swarm and multiply, leaving decimated reefs and fisheries in their wake”. _

This threat is very real – the native fisheries and reef ecosystems in several Caribbean counties have already been destroyed, even though their governments started addressing the problem years ago. Here in the United States, we have been slow in addressing the problem, even though the impact of the lionfish epidemic was overwhelmingly evident in other countries. In Florida, besides funding some limited research, the only action taken was to remove the bag limit on the lionfish for divers. And yet, some regulatory fishing limitations still exist that don’t allow some technical divers to spear or otherwise take lionfish in state waters. It has been demonstrated in other countries that the lionfish can be controlled with an aggressive and continuing spearfishing program. However, there must be a motivation for divers to actively spear these invasive fish, given the inherent risk of receiving a venomous sting and the cost of boat trips and diving. In addition to the divers on the frontline, a portfolio of incentives for the many marine and tourism-related businesses and other stakeholders are needed right now to facilitate optimal removal/control efforts of this invasive species from our coastal environments to protect our native marine ecosystems and numerous coastal economies.


‘We must take on the challenge to control the lionfish population, before they wipe out our native fisheries. Although we are still unaware of any long-term effects of the BP oil spill, the Lionfish threat could dwarf the oil spill’s ecological and economic impacts to Florida’s native fisheries. Further, left unmanaged, the lionfish threat increases exponentially over time. The potential negative impact to our marine related businesses, to tourism and to the general welfare of our citizens both immeasurable, and far-reaching:


*Decline in game fish means less fishing by locals*: hurting marinas, fuel providers, boat sales, mechanics, tackle shops, commercial fishermen, dive charter boats and dive shops 
*Decline in game fish means less fishing by tourists:,* hurting hotels, restaurants, gift shops, taxis, airlines, charter fishing boats, dive charter boats and dive shops 
*Seafood could become not only much more expensive, we could be presented with far fewer fish choices on menus:* hurting restaurants, seafood markets and the average citizen’s pocketbook
 
Governor Scott has recently proposed a budget with $1.4B to “Protect and Preserve Florida’s Environment”. Nowhere in the budget is a mention of the lionfish issue and the need to implement control measures. In addition, there is not a single proposal to fund lionfish control in any of the submitted projects for NRDA or RESTORE funds from BP – yet this is a larger challenge to our fisheries than the oil spill itself.

Local divers and interested individuals have started to form a coalition to bring attention to this issue. They currently do not have a website, but they do have a FaceBook page at

https://www.facebook.com/gulfcoastlionfishcoalition

If you are interested, the following article looks at the challenge in more depth

http://lionfish.co/why-are-lionfish-a-problem/

I have attached a one page fact sheet on the Red Lionfish

As an illustration, I have attached a picture of one divers’ catch of 91 lionfish of on Friday January 17th, here in our waters just outside Pensacola Pass. He stated that he estimated that there were another 500 remaining on the wreck.

I would be happy to share additional information on this dire situation and the threat that facing our state. That being said, I would ask that you not only educate yourself on this unfolding calamity, but that you share this information with other businessmen, and our politicians. Please feel free to forward this note, so that we can start to educate each other on this crisis. We must act now, before our fisheries are irreparably damaged. Quite frankly, the on-going debate on bag limits for Red Snapper and Grouper is meaningless, if we do not control the lionfish population. Unless we want our future “Seafood Festivals” to turn into “Lionfish Festivals,” we must act now. 

Leo Cyr
President 
Marina Management Corporation

Director
NorthWest Florida Marine Industry Association









2 Attachments


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## BananaTom (Feb 16, 2008)

*Thanks for posting Leo.

There are several threads on here about this subject, and a solution has been discussed, wherein, a market is needed for Lion Fish.

Chef Chris at Flora Bama Yacht Club has already added Lion Fish to his menu, as a result. We need more restaurants to follow Chef Chris' lead, and help create a market for them.

Then we need Gov. Rick Scott to make it all so easy for any and every diver to become Commercial Lion Fish Harvesters. The red tape needs to disappear fast so a supply can be easily had to meet the demand that local restaurants will create.

I hear they taste great.

Know anyone over Oar House way?

I call Joe Patti's every now and then and ask if they have any forsale.
*


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

Should we all start calling a few places and inquire about the lionfish on the menu or for retail/wholesale? If we find a place, lets post it and increase the market demand!
I might have to start on that lionfish vacuum dredge sooner than I thought!


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## BlackJeep (Jun 13, 2010)

Maybe somebody can post some good links or resources for buying or building those shorter lionfish spears and the catch buckets/bags that several diehards on this forum use.

I plan to start lionfish spearfishing this year myself.


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## BlackJeep (Jun 13, 2010)

I guess I can start...

Mini spear with lionfish tip
http://www.leisurepro.com/p-aqulfs/lionfish-mini-spear-with-tip
Lionfish catch bag
http://www.leisurepro.com/p-armlfb/armor-lion-fish-catch-bag-134
Lionfish polespear pole only
http://www.leisurepro.com/p-aqulfp/lionfish-pole-spear-only
Lionfish polespear
http://www.diversdirect.com/scuba-diving/lionfish-polespear-2-foot/
Lionfish cookbook
http://www.diversdirect.com/scuba-diving/lionfish-cookbook-by-reef
Lionfish catch bag
http://www.diversdirect.com/scuba-diving/armor-lion-fish-catch-baghttp:


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

WhackumStackum is doing his part. I hope to get some meat from him at some point so that I can try it out.


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## Fisherdad1 (Oct 4, 2007)

It occurred to me too this week that not taking advantage of the BP funding to address this problem was a real missed opportunity. But I think when the funding process started, the scope of this problem was not clear on most peoples radar. Those of us that pay attention on this forum realize that there is a Lionfishpocalypse in progress. I'm glad to hear that there is some discussion of some organized political activity to address this issue and bring it into focus for decision Makers.


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## goheel (Feb 3, 2011)

How come I don't hear the commercial fishermen doing anything about this?


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## hjorgan (Sep 30, 2007)

*Cause you can't catch the bastards on hook and line*



goheel said:


> How come I don't hear the commercial fishermen doing anything about this?


It's a diver harvest only sport. Hell if every diver just would stab as many as they can it would help. Somebody had an idea about a lionfish vacuum device. Sounds like a good idea!


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

I found a post by Harbison where they are catching the Red Lion Fish on baited hooks. First one I catch is getting it's spines clipped off and going back down as bait, if nothing bites, it becomes butterflied bait.

Thanks for asking:
We have been catching lion fish while fishing for mangrove snapper. We have caught them both on cut Spanish sardines & small pieces of squid. We were fishing 80 miles West of John's Pass in 130-150 feet of water. We use a # 3-5 hook depending on the size of the fish we are catching. We seem to be catching more all the time. At first it was 1 ever few trips. Now it's a regular thing. We caught 5 or 6 on this trip. Did you know that it's against the law to return a live lion fish to the water?


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## chad403 (Apr 20, 2008)

The talk about this is getting old. There is really nothing we can do about it


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

chad403 said:


> The talk about this is getting old. There is really nothing we can do about it


Not the sentiment we need if we are going to have anything to fish for in the future.
I'd suggest you shut your computer and tv off if you can't handle difficult problems and their solutions.


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

chad403 said:


> The talk about this is getting old. There is really nothing we can do about it


No, there is nothing YOU can do about it, especially with that attitude.


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

chad403 said:


> The talk about this is getting old. There is really nothing we can do about it


 
defeatism is a terrible thing.

but were Americans and our great thinkers will have new Ideas , invent new products and many will take risk to solve this problem like we always do.

*USMC General **Chesty Puller* "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now.We've finally found them and We're surrounded.
That simplifies our problem of getting to these people then killing them and they can't get away from us now"


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

History says that Chad is correct. Harvest, eat and sell them they are here to stay forever. A license to legally sell them is 50$ so go get them and make a little gas money.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Several people have brought up selling Lionfish commercially. Anyone of you can do that by purchasing a $50.00 Saltwater Products License from the FWC. Robert Turpin has nothing to do with that or any of the regulations connected with commercial fishing.

Before you decide to become a commercial fisherman you should to check with your boat insurance and your towing insurance carrier. You may need to pay increased insurance premiums for your boat and you may not be allowed to keep your cheap $150 per year policy with Sea Tow or Tow Boat U.S.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

sealark said:


> History says that Chad is correct. Harvest, eat and sell them they are here to stay forever. A license to legally sell them is 50$ so go get them and make a little gas money.


I hope you are wrong. 
My 2 person team is bringing in 340 to 370 fish per day ( 3 dives each).
That is about max with current technology....and at $4 a pound it would be a loosing proposition if it wasn't funded by a scientific grant.
I don't ever see it being a money making thing unless you could easily trap thousands of them at a time....or if the price went up higher than comparable other species.
I don't think we can really look to history here...since this is a bit different than anything we have experienced before.
At least in this area....the density and growth rate has exceeded all known data....and is many times more dense than they are in their native areas.
All bets are off as to what will happen.
I'll keep killing them....others will keep on giving up....we will see what happens.


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## HisName (Nov 29, 2009)

OK so let's start a new designer line of swimwear


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Here is the problem with commercializing the lionfish:*
A lionfish that is big enough to make a good sandwich is probably 2 ½ -3 years old. The restaurants will not be interested in paying for lionfish that don’t have enough meat to make it worth their time to clean and cook. (They have to make money.)

So, if people are focused on selling lionfish, they will only target the large lionfish, leaving the smaller ones in the water to reproduce for one or two more years.

*Why is that so bad? Well, let’s look at the math:*
Assume that ½ of all eggs are female and no predation 
Year 1 – a single lionfish reproduces releasing 2 million eggs
Year 2 – 1 million and 1 lionfish release 2 million eggs each
Year 3 – 1 billion, 1 million and 1 lionfish each release 2 million eggs

By leaving the smaller fish in the water, we are insuring that our native fishery will collapse. 

I have a better plan. Go here: http://www.ecreef.org/Lionfish_Pages/Documents/Lionfish Population Control Proposal 12-11-13.pdf


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Candy Candy. You dont even need a boat for the 50$ license. A boat license is 200$ . Yes i am talking about a salt water products license.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

*Here is the problem with commercializing the lionfish:*
A lionfish that is big enough to make a good sandwich is probably 2 ½ -3 years old. The restaurants will not be interested in paying for lionfish that don’t have enough meat to make it worth their time to clean and cook. (They have to make money.)
So, if people are focused on selling lionfish, they will only target the large lionfish, leaving the smaller ones in the water to reproduce for one or two more years.

*Why is that so bad? Well, let’s look at the math:*
Assume that ½ of all eggs are female and no predation 
Year 1 – a single lionfish reproduces releasing 2 million eggs
Year 2 – 1 million and 1 lionfish release 2 million eggs each
Year 3 – 1 billion, 1 million and 1 lionfish each release 2 million eggs

By leaving the smaller fish in the water, we are insuring that our native fishery will collapse. 

*I have a better plan. Go here: *http://www.ecreef.org/Lionfish_Pages/Documents/Lionfish Population Control Proposal 12-11-13.pdf


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

400 lionfish caught divided by 10 fish per pound of fillets = 40 pounds.
40 pounds x $4 = $160.
Gas cost $200
Tank fills $50
Net= $90 LOSS.
I'd say it would be a good way to help pay for the fun diving you would be doing anyway.....but bringing in that many dangerous fish is NOT THAN MUCH FUN.....it's more like HARD work.
.....just my experience....yours may vary.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

I could be wrong but when you sell fish to the fish house, I believe you are considered a commercial fisherman. If you are a commercial fisherman and you use your boat to get to the fish you are going to sell, then it would seem that the insurance company may consider your boat, a commercial boat. I haven't checked into this but it is something people considering going into the lionfish selling business might want to check into. 

I can't speak for how people are getting to their dive locations in Pensacola but in Okaloosa County, we have to have boats to get to the high lionfish concentrations, they haven't populated the inshore reefs to the same extent as the offshore reefs.

What we have seen over here is: The further out you go and the deeper the water, the more lionfish you see. I'm sure that will change as the lionfish population continues to go uncontrolled but, as of last fall, that is what we saw and that is what the people that participated in our tournament told us.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Firefish, do you really think anything can be done to eradicate the lionfish? The more thats killed the more that will hatch and take there place. If none are taken they will reach equilibrium and survive along with the native fish. The native fish will do exactually the same thing. A good example is grouper. Did you know that grouper change from males to females back and forth in accordance with breading requirements. Lionfish eat a lot of small grouper males change into females and produce millions more. 

So go kill, sell and eat them and keep suporting some multi $$$ grant some one has thaught up. Al gore comes to mind.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

sealark said:


> Firefish, do you really think anything can be done to eradicate the lionfish? The more thats killed the more that will hatch and take there place. If none are taken they will reach equilibrium and survive along with the native fish. The native fish will do exactually the same thing. A good example is grouper. Did you know that grouper change from males to females back and forth in accordance with breading requirements. Lionfish eat a lot of small grouper males change into females and produce millions more.
> 
> So go kill, sell and eat them and keep suporting some multi $$$ grant some one has thaught up. Al gore comes to mind.


You know I respect your diving experience, but I'm unaware of your scientific background. No offense intended, I don't have one....I just avoid saying things as truth, unless they are born out by scientific research. 
..also.....I believe that one or two things HAVE come of scientific studies!
Divers killing them will not make a dent overall....just to specific reefs.
My intent is to draw attention to a hole in the boat that has been ignored long enough that the situation IS now very much not in our favor.
Many complex and seemingly impossible things seem easy and simple after someone comes up with the solution.
If you are wrong....the gulf coast will only be a pretty beach.....nothing more.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

I have no Scientific background hell i can't even spell it. I just know that lionfish have lived in normal numbers in the med and red sea for i assume millions of years. If your scenario of doing nothing would result in barren sand beaches i wonder logically how. After the lionfish eat all the native fish how would they survive buy eating thare young. Then what? Nature just doesn't work that way. They will in time reach a sensable level with the local fish. Next time you spear one kill it and take it off the spear. Reef fish will come and eat it. I did that down in key west. Stuck one with a long pole spear held him up yanked him off and wham a big mutton snapper came in and ate him in one bite. So they will learn to eat them. 
Im glad to see you guys and myself spear them. I eat them and love em. If you can't get rid of them i will gladley take them and clean them. I have checked into selling them but not found anyone wanting to mess with them. They are so small and the spines are the problem. Have fun with them just don't expect to even dent them.


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## 301bLLC (Nov 23, 2013)

Maybe the best thing we can do is kill every lionfish we can and throw them back for other fish to eat, hopefully getting them used to eating lionfish?


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

> If none are taken they will reach equilibrium and survive along with the native fish.


^This.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Back when I was a child, I watched the Jetsons and Star Trek. Old timers will remember watching those science fiction shows that introduced us to idea of cell phones, blue tooth, microwaves, video phone calls, etc... back then a lot of people still had black and white tv's with just 3 channels. Most people still had party-line phone service and 1 rotary dial phone in their home. I could go on but, you get the picture...

Back then, most people thought all those technological concepts were impossible. Fortunately, there were people who thought it could be done and got busy creating the technology that would make it possible.

At the Lionfish Summit last October, I was very disturbed to hear many of the presenters say that lionfish eradication was impossible, unrealistic, or not feasible. One thing I am sure of: Those people will not be the ones to solve the lionfish problem.

We can do it, we just don't know how to eradicate them *yet*. 

I have ideas that I'll share later.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

BananaTom said:


> *Know anyone over Oar House way?*


Leo runs the Oar House as well.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

Candy said:


> *Here is the problem with commercializing the lionfish:*
> A lionfish that is big enough to make a good sandwich is probably 2 ½ -3 years old. The restaurants will not be interested in paying for lionfish that don’t have enough meat to make it worth their time to clean and cook. (They have to make money.)


This is not gospel. There are several straight-forward ways to avoid this scenario.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

Candy said:


> I could be wrong but when you sell fish to the fish house, I believe you are considered a commercial fisherman. If you are a commercial fisherman and you use your boat to get to the fish you are going to sell, then it would seem that the insurance company may consider your boat, a commercial boat. I haven't checked into this but it is something people considering going into the lionfish selling business might want to check into.
> 
> I can't speak for how people are getting to their dive locations in Pensacola but in Okaloosa County, we have to have boats to get to the high lionfish concentrations, they haven't populated the inshore reefs to the same extent as the offshore reefs.
> 
> What we have seen over here is: The further out you go and the deeper the water, the more lionfish you see. I'm sure that will change as the lionfish population continues to go uncontrolled but, as of last fall, that is what we saw and that is what the people that participated in our tournament told us.


So you do not have actual experience in these areas? So what's up...you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? Sorry to bust your chops Candy, but you need to speak to those things that you know to be true and let others with actual experience or evidence fill in the gaps.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

We need a state funded bounty on lion fish. If a diver got $3 from the state for every lion fish brought to a fish house AS WELL AS the market price per pound from the fish house it would make it very lucrative for the fisherman. 

Even if we put a 3 million dollar cap on it a year that's still 1 million dead lion fish. Bet that would make a dent in the little bastards. 

It's not that much money when we're talking about spending 18 million to build a fish hatchery and it would probably be more beneficial.


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## Redtracker (Dec 28, 2011)

Removed


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Bryan,

Bust my chops? I don't think you busted my chops. 

I'll give the general population more credit than to think they might have been misled about my level of knowledge of commercial fishing given the fact that I prefaced my post with "I could be wrong". The things I told them to check into are valid considerations. 

No worries. My credibility and my chops are intact.


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## BrakeTurnAccelerate (Jul 1, 2012)

Candy said:


> http://www.ecreef.org/Lionfish_Pages/Documents/Lionfish%20Population%20Control%20Proposal%2012-11-13.pdf


Sorry, but that plan is terrible.


Say someone turns in 3000 lionfish heads (would be very easy to do based on what I've seen from the posts on this forum), they'd be allowed to keep 30 Gag Grouper, Red Snapper, Triggerfish or whatever species they want, EVERY time they go fishing/spearing for an entire year. That has the potential to be 10,950 fish in that year (that's assuming they turn in ONLY 3000 lionfish). You'd absolutely desecrate these species.. A lot faster than the Lionfish ever could... 

Your method of reporting is also very vulnerable to fraud.


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## BananaTom (Feb 16, 2008)

*Let us get past the "Commercial Fishermen Mentality".*

*Think outside the box.*

*Gov. Rick Scott should declare at "State of Emergency" regarding the Florida Fishery.*

*During a State of Emergency, Governments can get things done without following stupid guidelines that their predecessors set. *


*Now that Gov. Scott has declared a "State of Emergency" he can order emergency measures to save the "Florida Fishery".*


*So lets name it "Save Florida Fishery's Act" with a sir name of "Work Order" or "Purchase Order".*

*We are getting past this "Red Tape" fast now.*

*Within that act / purchase order / work order, Gov Scott can create a provision, that every recreational certified diver is an automatic "First Responder". *

*The recreational certified divers can sign up everywhere FREE (no fees), Dive Shops, Bait Shops, Online, etc. as first responders. Again. No fees incurred. *

*The registered "First Responder" to the "Save Florida Fishery's Act" during a "State of Emergency" can now legally harvest and sell "Lion Fish"*

*They are not "Commercial Fishermen" at all.*

*All these divers are going to dive anyway, so why not make it sooooo easy for them to bring home a little cash flow while doing it. *

*“Like motorcycle riders say, "Where are we going to ride to today? Let us protect a Funeral, and now; there we have the Patriot Guards”.*

*The Commercial Dive Charter Companies now have a NEW item to market, rather than the "Big O"*

*Advertisement:*

*Come to Florida, and be a "First Responder" to the "Save Florida Fishery's Act" during a "State of Emergency" and spear over 50 Lion Fish during your one day dive trip.*

*Can you see a "Lion Fish Vacation Invasion"?*

*Can you see everyone wearing the T-Shirt?*

*Can you see everyone with the bumper sticker?*

*Screw the likes of Salt Life and others like it.*

*Florida Life = means we gotta doing something we have never done before. And if it does not work, go another direction, FAST.*

*With a State of Emergency Act in place, it can be changed very fast, without years and years of paid people performing studies in order to levy stupid guidelines for others to follow.*


*JUST IMAGINE*


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

BrakeTurnAccelerate said:


> Sorry, but that plan is terrible.
> 
> 
> Say someone turns in 3000 lionfish heads (would be very easy to do based on what I've seen from the posts on this forum), they'd be allowed to keep 30 Gag Grouper, Red Snapper, Triggerfish or whatever species they want, EVERY time they go fishing/spearing for an entire year. That has the potential to be 10,950 fish in that year (that's assuming they turn in ONLY 3000 lionfish). You'd absolutely desecrate these species.. A lot faster than the Lionfish ever could...
> ...


I'm one of the most prolific lionfish killers in the area ...and my trips are paid for. I still will probably only take in 1500 this year.
Yes - there are lots of them out there...but NO - ITS NOT EASY TO GET THOUSANDS OF THEM!
GEEZ! You guys suck at math.

Please submit your BETTER proposal in the space below.


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## BananaTom (Feb 16, 2008)

Firefishvideo said:


> I'm one of the most prolific lionfish killers in the area ....


*We need to get you officially registered as a First Responder, get you the T-shirt and a bumper sticker.*

*Go murder them for us none-divers. *

*Great Job ~~ First Responder to the Save Florida Fisheries Act during a State of Emergency*


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

I may be wrong , but if you can go on a dive trip for 90$ that would encourage people to go shoot them. It may not be a business per say,but it would encourage divers to shoot them and maybe do it more often.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

BananaTom said:


> *We need to get you officially registered as a First Responder, get you the T-shirt and a bumper sticker.*
> 
> *Go murder them for us none-divers. *
> 
> *Great Job ~~ First Responder to the Save Florida Fisheries Act during a State of Emergency*


I'm not looking for a t-shirt....and I'm not doing it all for free. I just wanted to put things into perspective.
I feel silly stating that I'm one of the best at something.....but due to multiple tournaments and the data from other scientific teams - I know that no other dive teams are bringing in the numbers that we do.
I can confidently base my math on our catch ratio ....knowing that it is the upper limit of what can be done with current technology.
These fish are most prevalent in 100' of water, and at that depth an (experienced and well equipped)diver can only shove around 100 fish in a bag before his dive is over.
Do 3-4 of those dives a day....and you will never want to see another lionfish again.


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## BananaTom (Feb 16, 2008)

Firefishvideo said:


> I feel silly stating that I'm one of the best at something.....)


*Practice makes a person best at something. 
Toot your horn.
Teach us with your expert mentality.
And thank you for the information in this post
*


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## aqua-holic (Jan 23, 2010)

*lion fish on TV*

Jeff Corwin is running a show on Lionfish invasion right now on WEAR.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

It will be sad to watch this mighty bueacracy unfold and fail as it so often does these days.

We don't need money for research, more state employees, boats, equipment, and I'm sure a much longer list of who knows what. 

We'll "state of emergency" our butts right into a complicated, expensive system that gets very little accomplished. 

Just pay the people of our state a bounty to massacre every one of these things they can find. 

One thing we all know. If you can catch and sell it, and it's valuable, than it's in trouble! Let's let this work in our favor for a change!


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## cobe killer (Apr 13, 2008)

my question about declaring a "state of emergency" by the state or federal government is: 
will they use this to shut down our fishery(recreational) due to the damage done by the lionfish's???
our government, state and local, have screwed us to many times to count in my lifetime and they use every excuse and LIE to do so. I'm willing to bet that "they" are already discussing it's possibilities to shut down even more fishing. 
that's JMHO

as for eating everything in the gulf...I have to agree, somewhat, with sealark on this.
every species on the planet has to have food to survive and will not destroy that food source completely because they would die off.(except humans. we aint that smart yet.
I know for fact from scientific research(not done by me) that even the birds of all species when the conditions demand will NOT breed if the source of they food is low for that season and when food is plentiful they will actually lay MORE eggs because food I plentiful. fish are no different.
that goes for all of God's creations except for MAN. we will consume till it's all gone then consume each other.
I commend everyone out there killing these invaders and I pray that it will make a difference.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

aqua-holic said:


> Jeff Corwin is running a show on Lionfish invasion right now on WEAR.


That was very cool! I'll have to try and catch the whole show....maybe online?


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## Emerald Ghost (Mar 11, 2008)

It was good info.
They have video of them surviving down to 440 feet.
Not good !


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

question, have any of you lionfish slayers been stung or finned or what ever you call it. if so was it really bad? when you clean them is it tricky? if they were a target fish i would think a method could be developed to catch them on hook and line. ???


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## Snagged Line (Sep 30, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tMBE7zWZDgk



From a Google search "How to clean a Lionfish"..............There were several others...


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

cobe killer said:


> my question about declaring a "state of emergency" by the state or federal government is:
> will they use this to shut down our fishery(recreational) due to the damage done by the lionfish's???
> our government, state and local, have screwed us to many times to count in my lifetime and they use every excuse and LIE to do so. I'm willing to bet that "they" are already discussing it's possibilities to shut down even more fishing.
> that's JMHO
> ...




So let me try to get my mind around this. You're ok with whatever damage a foreign, non-native invading organism will do because they won't kill "everything"? And this is justified because "man" sucks? Interesting, ridiculous and pathetic but still interesting...

I'm not interested in surrendering a single fish to these invaders. Kill them all.


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

thanks snagged


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## flounderslayerman (Jun 3, 2011)

Matt Mcleod said:


> So let me try to get my mind around this. You're ok with whatever damage a foreign, non-native invading organism will do because they won't kill "everything"? And this is justified because "man" sucks? Interesting, ridiculous and pathetic but still interesting...
> 
> I'm not interested in surrendering a single fish to these invaders. Kill them all.


Sorry Cliff but I have to agree with Matt on this one. After seeing the pics and videos from firefish and whackum I say kill them all. Those spots had only lionfish and nothing else left on them.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

As President of a non-profit with many divers/spearfishermen and a diver and spearfisher myself, I can confidently say that just because you see amazingly large lionfish hauls from a hand full of olympic level spearfishers, the average spearfisher will never bring back hundreds of lionfish in even multiple trips.

It is probable that some of the hauls you are impressed with are from people who are diving with re-breathers that allow them much more bottom time than the average diver on an 80cf tank. Some divers are not nitrox certified so their bottom time is even more limited than those who use nitrox.

If someone brings in 3000 lionfish, they would be a true Champion of our Fishery! Removing 3000 lionfish could potentially remove upwards of 3 Billion eggs from being released the following year. That's the math.

Now, you need to understand that an adult lionfish can eat up to 65 of our baby native fish in a single feeding. This is a fairly new discovery that was documented by Lad Adkins of REEF when he was doing stomach content survey research. 

How many of our Snapper, Groupers, Triggers etc... would be saved by removing 3000 lionfish? You do the math and then decide if allowing that diver to have 1 fish of his choice per dive trip is an unreasonable reward. 

The picture attached was from a scientific presentation given at the FWC Lionfish Summit by Lad Adkins, a marine biologist.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

nextstep said:


> question, have any of you lionfish slayers been stung or finned or what ever you call it. if so was it really bad? when you clean them is it tricky? if they were a target fish i would think a method could be developed to catch them on hook and line. ???


I would call it getting finned....since its similar in mechanics to getting finned by a snapper , catfish, ect.
Like getting finned by another fish - it can lead to infection....especially if a piece of the spine is left in the wound.
Unlike the other fish - the venom is VERY painful. A good poke from a fresh/undamaged spine will give you at least an hour of intense pain.
I have had 2 instances where the spine penetrated through muscle tissue in my hands. The pain is bad...the swelling is worse! Lingering pain and tenderness lasted for as much as 2 months after each such incident.
I continue to modify my catch gear to protect my hands during the spearing/bagging of the fish.
Those spines are SHARP ...and will go right through gloves that are engineered to protect you from hypodermic needles! One of my worst incidents involved me simply brushing against the underside of a fish that had escaped my catch bag. The spine penetrated all the way through my finger. Luckily, it came back out as quickly as it went in ( nothing left in the wound) ...but the intense pain lasted for 4+ hours. It took months for the marks and pain to completely go away.
Some people have gotten marine infections, and had to have tissue removed.

Cleaning them is not that bad. Shears can easily remove the fins + a dead fish is much easier to handle than one that you just shoved a spear into.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

nextstep said:


> question, have any of you lionfish slayers been stung or finned or what ever you call it. if so was it really bad? when you clean them is it tricky? if they were a target fish i would think a method could be developed to catch them on hook and line. ???


Yes, I have been stung more than once. The last time, my hand stayed swollen for 2 weeks and then the skin peeled off my finger 3 times.

Killing the lionfish isn't that challenging or dangerous. It's getting them in the bag to bring to the surface that is tricky. Everyone that kills lionfish has either been stung or is going to get stung eventually. Some stings are just annoying but some can hurt like hell. This is another reason why the motivator to kill lionfish must be something that people are willing to risk a sting over...and then there are those pesky sharks that are drawn by blood in the water. 

Most people aren't going to be motivated by a t-shirt, sticker or a few dollars.


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

dang yall, thanks for taking the risk.


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## Nitzey (Oct 9, 2007)

I originally posted the message from Leo Cyr. In that message he stated: *It has been demonstrated in other countries that the lionfish can be controlled with an aggressive and continuing spearfishing program. *

Several responders here have said it cannot be done. I am thinking that Cyr knows what he is talking about. 

One other point. Some have suggested that in due time an equilibrium will be reached. Let me point out that Japanese beetles have been in this country for a very long time. They are no problem in Japan but they are here. Kudzu is terrible in this country too, but no problem in the Orient. I could go on, Asian carp, etc. But the point is, *unless we do something*, it might take centuries for the problem to resolve itself naturally.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

Candy said:


> Yes, I have been stung more than once. The last time, my hand stayed swollen for 2 weeks and then the skin peeled off my finger 3 times.
> 
> Killing the lionfish isn't that challenging or dangerous. It's getting them in the bag to bring to the surface that is tricky. Everyone that kills lionfish has either been stung or is going to get stung eventually...


Why not just stick them and leave them dying? More productive and safer.


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## [email protected] (Feb 8, 2014)

My 17 year old son and I are planning on getting our divers training and certification this spring or summer. Spearing lionfish is something we are interested in doing after. Do any of the posting members on this thread do training/certifications, and if so could we have a final event that includes a lionfish eradication dive.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> My 17 year old son and I are planning on getting our divers training and certification this spring or summer. Spearing lionfish is something we are interested in doing after. Do any of the posting members on this thread do training/certifications, and if so could we have a final event that includes a lionfish eradication dive.


The Emerald Coast Reef Association has been providing FREE lionfish educational workshops to groups, businesses and organizations, since 2011. We like to have an attendance of 20+, if possible but will schedule smaller groups if they are divers. In the workshop, you will learn:

Background of the lionfish invasion
First aid for stings
Demonstrations of pro's and Con's of different spear and bag designs
Techniques for safe spearing, bagging, handling and cleaning lionfish
Q & A

To schedule a workshop, contact [email protected]


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Orion45 said:


> Why not just stick them and leave them dying? More productive and safer.


I have concerns about our native fish eating the venomous spines on the lionfish. There have been video's of our native fish eating lionfish after they have been killed but we do not know if those fish survive for long after they injest the spines. We also do not know the long term effect of introducing a toxin in the diet of our native fish. Could it cause the equivelent of fish cancer down the road? We don't know.

We do know that people and other species that are exposed to toxins can survive for years before the side effect of toxic exposure becomes evident. Sometimes, the side affect is an impact of the genetics of offspring. 

Some people may remember the effect of Thalomide (sp?) on baby's born to women who took that "FDA approved" drug for nausea. Their babies were born without hands or had two fingers that resembled claws. 

I have suggested that research be done to understand the long-term impact of introducing the lionfish as a food source to our native fish. Who knows, it may turn out to be no bad effects, that would be GREAT. However, if the toxin kills the fish that eat them or weakens them to the point they become easy prey for larger predators, renders our native fish sterile, or harms their offspring weakening the gene pool, then we could be making a very bad situation much worse.

This is a research project that needs to be conducted in a fish hatchery over a period of several years.

If the only way you will kill a lionfish is if you leave them on the bottom, I guess it's better than leaving them to reproduce but, if you can, I recommend the dead fish be taken out of the water until we have some scientific proof that we aren't causing another problem.


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## cobe killer (Apr 13, 2008)

Matt Mcleod said:


> So let me try to get my mind around this. You're ok with whatever damage a foreign, non-native invading organism will do because they won't kill "everything"? And this is justified because "man" sucks? Interesting, ridiculous and pathetic but still interesting...
> 
> I'm not interested in surrendering a single fish to these invaders. Kill them all.


 really matt?????????????


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

Candy said:


> I have concerns about our native fish eating the venomous spines on the lionfish. There have been video's of our native fish eating lionfish after they have been killed but we do not know if those fish survive for long after they injest the spines. We also do not know the long term effect of introducing a toxin in the diet of our native fish. Could it cause the equivelent of fish cancer down the road? We don't know.
> 
> We do know that people and other species that are exposed to toxins can survive for years before the side effect of toxic exposure becomes evident. Sometimes, the side affect is an impact of the genetics of offspring.
> 
> ...


Does it seem that the dead lionfish have impacted the fish population in the Caribbean? What about the fish that live in the original habitat of the lionfish?

What happens to lionfish that die of old age on our reefs? (Not that many species of fish die of old age.) Something will eventually it it.

Statistically, given the reproductive ratio of lionfish, manual removal seems to be a fruitless proposition. It might work on small structures, provided it's done often, but I'm no so sure about large areas.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Research has shown that removals of lionfish from reefs increases native fish biomass and biodiversity. 

The best way to reduce the lionfish populations on as many reefs as possible is to motivate as many divers as possible to participate in regular and aggresive lionfish removals. A hand full of the best spearfishers cannot possibly clean as many reefs as an army of average spearfishers. Let's face it, we all have our favorite spots and most have their secret honey holes. We need them all to be cleaned.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

Orion45 said:


> Does it seem that the dead lionfish have impacted the fish population in the Caribbean? What about the fish that live in the original habitat of the lionfish?
> 
> What happens to lionfish that die of old age on our reefs? (Not that many species of fish die of old age.) Something will eventually it it.
> 
> Statistically, given the reproductive ratio of lionfish, manual removal seems to be a fruitless proposition. It might work on small structures, provided it's done often, but I'm no so sure about large areas.


I do wish that I could better reinforce the fact that nothing about our lionfish population mimics the one in its home territory.
The growth rate is FASTER, the consumption of prey is HIGHER, the Rate of reproduction seems to be as much as DOUBLE. 
Our particular area seems to be the perfect spot for the lionfish. Part of it is the eddy current in the gulf, which seems to be depositing all the eggs from every lionfish from New York to Texas ...right on top of our reefs. Other factors may be the warmer waters of the gulf, and the RICH food source it contains.
These fish were released here by aquarists, and this is a MAN MADE problem.
I think the only course correction Mother Nature has on her calendar is a mass extinction of the creature that is doing the most damage....us. Until then....we should try to clean up our own messes: lionfish, killer bees, aisian carp, boas in the wetlands of south Florida, ....the list just keeps going.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

Firefishvideo said:


> I do wish that I could better reinforce the fact that nothing about our lionfish population mimics the one in its home territory.
> The growth rate is FASTER, the consumption of prey is HIGHER, the Rate of reproduction seems to be as much as DOUBLE.
> Our particular area seems to be the perfect spot for the lionfish. Part of it is the eddy current in the gulf, which seems to be depositing all the eggs from every lionfish from New York to Texas ...right on top of our reefs. Other factors may be the warmer waters of the gulf, and the RICH food source it contains.
> These fish were released here by aquarists, and this is a MAN MADE problem.
> I think the only course correction Mother Nature has on her calendar is a mass extinction of the creature that is doing the most damage....us. Until then....we should try to clean up our own messes: lionfish, killer bees, aisian carp, boas in the wetlands of south Florida, ....the list just keeps going.


Unfortunately, once a non-native species is introduced and starts multiplying, there seems very little man can do to completely eradicated said species.

Nutria in Louisiana are thriving.

Zebra mussels in the Great Lakes.

Killer bees are all around us.

Formosan termites.

Pythons in the Everglades. I don't know of any successful large scale efforts to exterminate the boa population. There are an estimated 100,000 to 150,000 pythons in the Everglades and the 2013 Python Challenge yielded only 68 kills despite a bounty as high as $1,500.

This is a sobering article concerning the python problem and possible expansion:

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/16001623-giant-constrictors-a-growing-problem-in-florida-everglades

Just like all of the above invasive species, I believe lionfish will become a fact of life in our waters. Especially, with the GOM current spreading the eggs over a large area along the eastern coast of the U.S.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Hot water is the antidote for the liongish stings. It's a protein not a real poison. I went diving today and killed one big lionfish and 2 flounder off the freighter. Cleaned them and just finished eating them(BURP) Excuse me, so i guess i did my part in eradicating the little devels. Damn good couldnt tell the difference between them. I'll take any big ones if you can't get rid of them. I asked Ray at Marias about buying some. He said there's not enough demand for them and the size and stings. The cleaning girls wouldn't clean my lionfish just the flounder so i had to show them.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

We may never eradicate termites, yet their damage can be controlled.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

The "nature will balance itself out" argument sounds logical when it comes to lionfish. However, this theory is not supported by fact. People in the Bahamas and Caribbean are seeing significant damage to reefs and fisheries due to lionfish. Google it for yourself.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

Orion45 said:


> Why not just stick them and leave them dying? More productive and safer.


They often heal up and keep going.


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## Fielro (Jun 4, 2012)

Once a non-native species is introduced to an area without any natural predators, the eradication process is an on-going expensive process. We have to get our elected officials on board to allocate resources to help with this out of control problem, otherwise the wonderful fishing as we know it will be adversely impacted. IMHO.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

WhackUmStackUm said:


> They often heal up and keep going.


A small diameter point might allow it to survive but a large cut should be fatal.

I'm going to make a spear point like the photo below and attach it to my pole spear. The shape should allow the point to slide right out without having to handle the lionfish.

I figure 1.5" - 2" at its widest point should kill it...especially if you target the gills or stomach area. 

I plan to start mine at 2" and then go narrower, if needed. 

I'm not bagging the lionfish. Just stick them and let the die.

View attachment Spear.pdf


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

sealark said:


> The cleaning girls wouldn't clean my lionfish just the flounder so i had to show them.


The cleaning girls...you got cleaning girls? 

I'm envious.


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## rocklobster (Oct 1, 2007)

guys, the news is out and restaurants are getting on board daily. hopefully, pretty soon, it will be like "blackened redfish" and the demand will decrease their invasion. of course, then, nmfs will show up and say it is overfished......


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

cobe killer said:


> really matt?????????????


Well Cliff I don't remember putting any smiley faces, or JK's, or haha's so I guess I "really" meant what I said. 

Disagreeing on how to address the problem is one thing, but you made it clear you don't intend to be part of any solution. Nobody has time for someone like that right now...


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## rocklobster (Oct 1, 2007)

why dont yall just deal with the problem - those of you who want to deal with it - those who don't, then butt out and let us at least try to make things right. we don't have time for petty testosterone pissing contests. help, move or get run over. we will try to fix the situation as much as we can. we don't need a bunch of nay sayers.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

We've been at war with the government for years over snappers, in comparison these "bugs" should prove to be reasonable, logical and generally easy to deal with!


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Orion45 said:


> A small diameter point might allow it to survive but a large cut should be fatal.
> 
> I'm going to make a spear point like the photo below and attach it to my pole spear. The shape should allow the point to slide right out without having to handle the lionfish.
> 
> ...


+1 stick them and leave them lay. Keep a couple for dinner if you want.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Wack-um-stack-um

Would you mind if I used your healed spear-wound pictures for educational purposes through ECRA? I will always give you credit for the photo's whenever I use them.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Matt Mcleod said:


> We've been at war with the government for years over snappers, in comparison these "bugs" should prove to be reasonable, logical and generally easy to deal with!


Matt, you would think our fishery managers would be all over this crisis but the truth of the matter is that I have been begging them to take aggressive action to get those fish out of our waters for 3 years!

The first lionfish reported off Oskaloosa’s coast was in October of 2010. Take a look at the attached slides that were part of an FWC presentation given in 2010. Take a good look at what they KNEW was happening. 

Go here to see how long the FWC and NOAA knew about the invasive lionfish and watch the animated map fill up with dots. You'll notice that the first lionfish documented in the GOM was in 2006. They didn't reach the Panhandle until 2010. That means they KNEW for 4 years the lionfish were heading this way and they never warned us, they never put a population control plan in action, they have never even tried to slow the migration. http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/SpeciesAnimatedMap.aspx?speciesID=963 

We are now entering our 4th year of the invasion and if they don't implement a viable and aggressive population control plan very soon, we may not have a fishery a few years down the road.
.
.


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## Smarty (Nov 23, 2008)

Has anyone ever seen any of them in our bays or further up toward our river systems?


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Candy said:


> I could be wrong but when you sell fish to the fish house, I believe you are considered a commercial fisherman. If you are a commercial fisherman and you use your boat to get to the fish you are going to sell, then it would seem that the insurance company may consider your boat, a commercial boat. I haven't checked into this but it is something people considering going into the lionfish selling business might want to check into.
> population continues to go uncontrolled but, as of last fall, that is what we saw and that is what the people that participated in our tournament told us.


Wrong again Candy. There is NO requirement for a boat to even have insurance to fish or Commercial fish. Now if it's financed which most are the finance company requires it. And for a boat to commercial fish it must be registered commercial.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

rocklobster said:


> why dont yall just deal with the problem - those of you who want to deal with it - those who don't, then butt out and let us at least try to make things right. we don't have time for petty testosterone pissing contests. help, move or get run over. we will try to fix the situation as much as we can. we don't need a bunch of nay sayers.


Rocklobster, I think thats just about what Hitler said or Saddam But history said otherwise. Time will tell:thumbup::thumbup: I dont remember anyone saying something that couldn't happen. some are stating what they have seen happen in other areas so rave on......


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## WhyMe (Apr 21, 2013)

I heard one can eat the Loin Fish. Is this True? They look to be tasty.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJWf89UU6U&desktop_uri=/watch?v=vvJWf89UU6U

Wonder if big jewfish would suck them up like a vacuum cleaner?


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

WhyMe said:


> I heard one can eat the Loin Fish. Is this True? They look to be tasty.


If you would read the entire posts your question has been answered. But yes they are just as tasty as flounder. At least to me. Now lets start a 9 page discusion about lionfish taste disagreement.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

sealark said:


> Rocklobster, I think thats just about what Hitler said or Saddam But history said otherwise. Time will tell:thumbup::thumbup: I dont remember anyone saying something that couldn't happen. some are stating what they have seen happen in other areas so rave on......


Dang it!...I was just going to ignore that one...since its just a bit too crazy to be a real statement! - but I CANT!

Sealark....are you really comparing Lionfish hunters to mass murdering racists?....or Lionfish to Jews? WTF?

I have heard from a few divers that they have bumped into a few individuals that actually believe that we should PROTECT the lionfish!!! You one of them?

I'm sure you didn't mean to infer any of that right??!!


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

WhackUmStackUm said:


> We may never eradicate termites, yet their damage can be controlled.


That's true. However, we control termites by poisoning entire colonies and by setting up chemical barriers around structures...and not by trying to exterminate them individually.

I'm realistic enough to realize that relying on individual divers to reduce the population of lionfish is a losing battle. There aren't enough divers to be able to keep up with the population explosion.

As I said before, we might be able to control their population on small reefs that lie at depths of less than 100 feet. Deeper reefs just aren't feasible because of time constraints.

According to the information on one of *Candy*'s posts, the lionfish habitat includes depths up to 600 feet. I wonder if anyone of you technical divers has surveyed spots on The Edge and other deep reefs to determine the extent of the lionfish population.

What we need is to find out what keeps the lionfish population in check in their original habitat.

Meanwhile, I'll do my part in killing as many lionfish as I can.

You can pm me anytime you need help on one of your trips.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

sealark said:


> Wrong again Candy. There is NO requirement for a boat to even have insurance to fish or Commercial fish. Now if it's financed which most are the finance company requires it. And for a boat to commercial fish it must be registered commercial.


Sealark,
I'm sorry that I didn't explain myself well enough for you to understand my post. I am not wrong. I did *not* say insurance was required to run a commercial boat. 

What I said was: * "If you are a commercial fisherman and you use your boat to get to the fish you are going to sell, then it would seem that the insurance company may consider your boat, a commercial boat." *
_(The words If, seem, and may convey that the statement is possible, not an absolute fact.) _ 

Now, to further help you comprehend my post, an earlier post mentioned that all people needed was a $50.00 saltwater product license. Well, that is correct. To sell lionfish they kill, all they need is a Saltwater Product License from the FWC. However, they need to confirm that *if* they use their boat to collect the lionfish that their boat is not considered a commercial boat which requires a different license and may change their insurance needs. _(The word believe conveys a belief but does not convey that the statement is a fact. The word *if* means if they use their boat. _Obviously, if they get to their dive spots to collect lionfish for commercial sale without the use of a boat, this doesn’t not apply to them.)

Most boat owners have insurance on their boats. They carry insurance to cover their liability and help pay for loss or damage. 

Insurance costs and policy's are different for vessels that are used for personal use and those that are used for commercial use. The suggestion that people check with their insurance company is a good suggestion. _(For commercial fishermen or private fishermen that do not carry coverage, they obviously don't need to check with their insurance, because they have none. The suggestion was aimed at boat owners who do carry insurance to protect themselves and others.) _

If your boat is insured as a private vessel and you are using it for commercial purposes without informing your insurance company and you have a situation that requires you to make a claim, it is very possible that your insurance company could deny your claim or worse, charge you with fraud. (The word possible means it could happen, not that it will happen. The word private means that its not used for business purposes.) 

*I stand by my suggestion to everyone considering becoming a lionfish commercial fisherman. Protect yourself by knowing what you are doing. Make sure you have all the correct licenses and permits and make sure you inform all your insurance carriers about the change in use of your vessel.*

Again, sorry Sealark, I didn't mean to confuse you. Hope this clears things up.


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

looks like a good day to go fishing


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

nextstep said:


> looks like a good day to go fishing


I'm so confused, what do you mean by fishing? Sorry if I offended anyone. I am going Diving tomorrow it's too calm today.


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

no offence here

just tryin to make a positive


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

nextstep said:


> no offence here
> 
> just tryin to make a positive


Not you, just everybody. Hell I'm getting so many likes my folder is loaded. I want to see what happens with a dislikes. Maybe for every dislike it removes 10 likes.


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

sealark said:


> ...Now lets start a 9 page discusion about lionfish taste disagreement.


10 now...wanna go for 15-20, then taste (like chicken to me) disagreement?


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## floorman1 (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok help me understand don't want to get into a intelligent conversation unarmed. What is required to catch and sell these as well as other fish from the gulf. In other words I own a restuarant in central alabama and would like to sell my catch in my place. What liscences do I need to do this legally. Thanks


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## bakbone (Dec 18, 2012)

Alabama Fishery 1-888-848-6887 laws are different from Florida give this # a call.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

Orion45 said:


> That's true. However, we control termites by poisoning entire colonies and by setting up chemical barriers around structures...and not by trying to exterminate them individually.
> 
> I'm realistic enough to realize that relying on individual divers to reduce the population of lionfish is a losing battle. There aren't enough divers to be able to keep up with the population explosion.


Genetic lionfish modification or autonomous reef cleaning robots are two ideas that could change the game. For now we are working to limit the damage as much as we can.



Orion45 said:


> As I said before, we might be able to control their population on small reefs that lie at depths of less than 100 feet. Deeper reefs just aren't feasible because of time constraints.
> 
> According to the information on one of *Candy*'s posts, the lionfish habitat includes depths up to 600 feet. I wonder if anyone of you technical divers has surveyed spots on The Edge and other deep reefs to determine the extent of the lionfish population...


Here is a video of me killing lionfish on The Edge about 18 months ago. I'm sure there are many more out there now. Most of the lionfish appear near the end of the video. WARNING: You may need sunglasses to watch the video as I was using my "lightsaber."


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## Cracker (May 15, 2012)

You wasn't kidding about that light.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

WhackUmStackUm said:


> Genetic lionfish modification or autonomous reef cleaning robots are two ideas that could change the game. For now we are working to limit the damage as much as we can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I admire the steadfast nature in which you go about your work !


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

That is one bright light! Bet you could blind a shark with that bad boy!


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

Candy said:


> That is one bright light! Bet you could blind a shark with that bad boy!


Yes, sharks hate the light. (5,000 lumens) It can also be used to remove bottom paint from boats.


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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

Saw something the other day that they are living as deep as 500' plus.


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## panhandleslim (Jan 11, 2013)

Narratives and film show that Goliaths are slurping these Lionfish up. Now, we have the FWC considering a season on Goliaths? Might want to hold off on that for a while. 

Other reports here have morays and sharks feeding on them. In Asia, the big Titan or Oceanic triggers attack them; especially when the Titans are spawning. Lionfish seem to avoid a lot of the larger reef patches where you have masses of small Wrasse and Anthias that just go crazy eating when there is a spawn. Found the biggest concentrations on isolated reefs and that is what we have here. 

Also, I can't remember seeing a lot of Lionfish on night dives....I'll review some of my film. Maybe they have to seek hiding places from Sharks and Morays? We should be reaching out to marine biologists in that area for their take on the population, proliferation that we are experiencing and why the difference. There are a lot of prominent ones in Australia and I met some in New Guinea. I will try to look up the names and make some contact. Our issue can't be more favorable water temperatures but it may be the availability of food and lack of predators.

Again, I wish we had research facility here to take up the studies that will be required to resolve this. When West Florida University was proposed, it was supposed to have a world class oceanographic focus but the funding seems to never have materialized. The hatcheries in Texas have research and education integrated in their facilities so there is hope for us if this hatchery, in Pensacola, becomes a reality. 

Finally, I want to thank the divers that are out there fighting the good fight and sometimes getting the wounds to show for it. At least they are taking action.


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## snake 166 (Oct 2, 2007)

Whackem---Have you noted a size difference between inshore and offshore lionfish---most of those I saw in your edge video looked small


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

snake 166 said:


> Whackem---Have you noted a size difference between inshore and offshore lionfish---most of those I saw in your edge video looked small


I have not seen any difference in size at different depths. Many lionfish that I saw up until 2013 were small pretty much everywhere I went. (The video was shot in 2012) Although I still see plenty of small and medium-sized lionfish today, in 2013 the biggest ones seem MUCH BIGGER. I shot a 15.75 inch one a couple of weeks ago. 15 out of 91 were over 14 inches. The record lionfish taken in the Gulf is 16.5 inches.


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## snake 166 (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanks. I was just wondering if there is any correlation between size and depth---maybe suggesting a pattern of movement with age. Gotta look for every possibility of vulnerability for these bastards.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Barnacle Dave's sister caught one at the 3 mile bridge yesterday.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

WhackUmStackUm said:


> Genetic lionfish modification or autonomous reef cleaning robots are two ideas that could change the game. For now we are working to limit the damage as much as we can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. Divers are just an interim solution to the problem. Actually, more like a Band Aid.

Maybe trapping groupers in South Florida and realeasing them here. 

What kind of light were you using?

Just curious...how long was your deco time on that dive?


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## k-p (Oct 7, 2009)

They live up under the docks in the Bahamas. Wouldn't be surprised to start seeing that here in a few years.


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

Orion45 said:


> What kind of light were you using?


See: http://www.wisedive.com/
Looks like they no longer offer the 5,000 lumen canister model.



Orion45 said:


> Just curious...how long was your deco time on that dive?


If I remember correctly, 15-20 minutes.


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## Chapman5011 (Mar 7, 2013)

Nitzey said:


> I am posting this from Marina Management:
> 
> I want to alert you to an issue with potentially devastating impacts on our fisheries, and therefore, our local and state economies. My comments are focused on the situation in the Panhandle, but this crisis exists in the entire Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean.
> 
> ...


Does the lion fish have a predator or is it man with a spear.


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## Smarty (Nov 23, 2008)

Burnt Drag said:


> Barnacle Dave's sister caught one at the 3 mile bridge yesterday.


Did they happen to take a picture? If folks are catching them in our close to shore areas and bay I'd like to know. There must be some kind of solution out there that no one has thought of yet. No offense to any dog owners out there. But just like a pit bull smells blood and goes for the jugular. I wonder when caught if the lionfish were sliced multiple times down both sides killing them and were tossed back in. Would the sharks and bottom dwellers start to more often eat them and eventually build up an immunity to their stinging effects? Maybe not but just a thought :yes:


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Chapman5011 said:


> Does the lion fish have a predator or is it man with a spear.


It is very rare for a lionfish to bite a hook and our native fish do not prey on lionfish so, at this time, divers are our best hope of saving our fishery... if we can motivate enough of them to aggressively target the lionfish.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Candy, this bad weather sure is bad news for you. The no preditors is not correct. I have seen several posts from commercial fishermen posting that they have found lions in red grouper and other grouper guts.


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

Smarty said:


> Did they happen to take a picture? If folks are catching them in our close to shore areas and bay I'd like to know. There must be some kind of solution out there that no one has thought of yet. No offense to any dog owners out there. But just like a pit bull smells blood and goes for the jugular. I wonder when caught if the lionfish were sliced multiple times down both sides killing them and were tossed back in. Would the sharks and bottom dwellers start to more often eat them and eventually build up an immunity to their stinging effects? Maybe not but just a thought :yes:



I cut most of them open when I spear them, in an effort to educate our local reef species on how tasty they are. I've witnessed red snapper and triggerfish eating them once I've cut them open. Maybe with enough time, we can get a species or two to realize the risk is worth the reward.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Smarty said:


> Did they happen to take a picture? If folks are catching them in our close to shore areas and bay I'd like to know. There must be some kind of solution out there that no one has thought of yet. No offense to any dog owners out there. But just like a pit bull smells blood and goes for the jugular. I wonder when caught if the lionfish were sliced multiple times down both sides killing them and were tossed back in. Would the sharks and bottom dwellers start to more often eat them and eventually build up an immunity to their stinging effects? Maybe not but just a thought :yes:


 I don't think she took a picture. They tossed it back....alive.
She described the fish, and there wasn't any doubt.


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## Smarty (Nov 23, 2008)

Burnt Drag said:


> I don't think she took a picture. They tossed it back....alive.
> She described the fish, and there wasn't any doubt.


It's all a part of the learning process. At least she thought to describe it to you :thumbsup:
I'm thinking if people catch them and they're not big enough for table fare then make bait out of them.


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## foxtrotuniform (Nov 11, 2013)

Candy said:


> I have concerns about our native fish eating the venomous spines on the lionfish. There have been video's of our native fish eating lionfish after they have been killed but we do not know if those fish survive for long after they injest the spines. We also do not know the long term effect of introducing a toxin in the diet of our native fish. Could it cause the equivelent of fish cancer down the road? We don't know.



There is a nice rule of thumb about the difference between poison and venom. 

Poison kills you if *you eat it. 
*Venom kills you if *it eats you*. 

In almost all cases, venom will not harm you if you consume it. It's broken down by your digestive system along with the rest of your food. http://ufwildlife.ifas.ufl.edu/venomous_snake_faqs.shtml

There is a possibility that one of the spines could puncture the fishes insides and inject him that way. That seems like a minor risk, though. Grouper and snapper make their living swallowing spiny fish whole. Seeing how they avoid live lionfish, but pounce on them as soon as they are injured leads me to believe that once the fish is hurt, they have no problem getting him down the hatch without hurting themselves. 

But lets say you're right, and venom CAN cause some amount of harm to Grouper and Snapper that eat them. 

Don't you think that nuking an entire reef, leaving their carcasses for the crabs and reclaiming it for the native fish is better alternative to only killing half of them, and going home with a bag of dead fish and 50 live ones still in control of the reef? 

I don't mean to be adversarial. There are not "good" options in this crappy situation. I'm just kind of thinking out loud, and am curious on your thoughts.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

foxtrotuniform,

I don't see your post as being adversarial at all. You seem to have a genuine interest and you even made the effort to look up venom vs poison. I like that and don't mind having a respectful debate. You make some very good points.

First, I agree with you 100% that it is probably better to kill lionfish than to leave them to reproduce. I re-posted the entire quote that shows that I agree with you on that point. (See Quote below) Also, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I didn't mean to imply that it was a fact that eating lionfish harmed our native fish, I said "We don't know" and "Who knows, it may turn out to be no bad effects, that would be GREAT."

I did go to the site you provided a link to and this is what I saw: 

*What is the difference between poison and venom? 
If you drink venom, will it kill you?*
Poisons are substances that are toxic (cause harm) if swallowed or inhaled. Venoms are generally not toxic if swallowed, and must be injected under the skin (by snakes, spiders, etc.) into the tissues that are normally protected by skin in order to be toxic. However, we do NOT recommend drinking venom!

That is good information to know, and I learned it thanks to you. :thumbup:

I'm still concerned that we don't know the short or long term effects of our native fish eating the lionfish. 




Candy said:


> I have concerns about our native fish eating the venomous spines on the lionfish. There have been video's of our native fish eating lionfish after they have been killed but we do not know if those fish survive for long after they injest the spines. We also do not know the long term effect of introducing a toxin in the diet of our native fish. Could it cause the equivelent of fish cancer down the road? We don't know.
> 
> We do know that people and other species that are exposed to toxins can survive for years before the side effect of toxic exposure becomes evident. Sometimes, the side affect is an impact of the genetics of offspring.
> 
> ...


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## WhackUmStackUm (Jan 31, 2010)

sealark said:


> ...The no preditors is not correct. I have seen several posts from commercial fishermen posting that they have found lions in red grouper and other grouper guts.


I have also heard that red grouper and other grouper sometimes eat lionfish here in the Northern Gulf. However, I have not seen lionfish in grouper stomach contents yet myself. I'll be looking for them more this year.

I have noticed that some hard-bottom reefs seem to be clear of lionfish. Often these same reefs have a number of grouper on them. I plan to shoot some of these grouper this year and check their stomach contents. I'll post my findings.


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## Firefishvideo (Jul 1, 2010)

Hey Bryan! ...not sure which reefs you were hitting but - we hit Greens hole, Paradise, and Florida girl areas pretty hard in the fall. 
They produced high numbers (30-40 fish per diver per dive). 
I need to get my data together and enter it into the tracker.

Here are a couple of pics from our trip a couple of weeks ago to our scientific study group of reef modules.


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