# Why is cave diving so much more dangerous?



## hjorgan

After reading about the father/son tragedy I got curious. Why is cave diving so inherently more dangerous that open water? I don't dive anymore but it seems like any time you go down over 40 feet you are pretty much in the hazardous zone.


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## RockB

If something happens you cannot go straight up..

Not a cave diver but I am pretty sure that most of the time it is really easy to stir up silt and then you literally cannot see your hand in front of your face.


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## badonskybuccaneers

Biggest problem is loosing your bearings and getting lost. Kind like diving under ice- no easy out. I personally don't see the attraction. I'd much rather be in open salt water looking at a pretty fish or coral.


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## lobsterman

Cave diving when done correctly is no more dangerous than the other types of diving, but you have to carry the proper equipment, including back up breathing bottles and a long reel so you do not get lost. Getting lost is the biggest mistake made by cave divers without experience. Me personally don't care much for it and prefer open water, if you do not panic you can work your way out of most situations. Panic is the number one killer!!!


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## maxfold

*Cave diving*

In cave diving you can get turned around and get lost ,it gets very dark without a light that goes out ,vertigo,forget to follow bubbles ,easy to panic ,silt from bottom clouds water badly ,partner freaks out and drowns you,when you are lost and forget which way is out ,up, mouthpiece comes out and cant find it . A lot of other things like big fish and eels are scary .dont forget the old horror movies that you think of .oh and roof may collapes.anybody here that use to dive cave 3miles north of Ebro dog track ? Be Safe ! Maxfold in gulf.


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## SaltAddict

Cave diving:
Training
Discipline
Redundancy

Reasons I don't go in a cave:
No fish to shoot
No beer
No naked women


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## Orion45

lobsterman said:


> Cave diving when done correctly is no more dangerous than the other types of diving,...


 I absolutely disagree with this statement. Any diving with an overhead environment is riskier than open water diving.


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## lobsterman

lobsterman said:


> Cave diving when done *correctly* is no more dangerous than the other types of diving ...number one killer!!!





Orion45 said:


> I absolutely disagree with this statement. Any diving with an overhead environment is riskier than open water diving.


Note the key word there... *CORRECTLY*. I did not say it wasn't dangerous, but after all breathing can be hazardous to your health at times. With proper training and backup equipment, it will go without a hitch. Long lead lines are a must also.


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## badonskybuccaneers

SaltAddict said:


> Cave diving:
> Training
> Discipline
> Redundancy
> 
> Reasons I don't go in a cave:
> No fish to shoot
> No beer
> No naked women


 
:thumbup: Amen Brother:thumbup:


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## SaltAddict

I'm gonna side with Orion on this one. All the training in the world will mean squat if you have an over head collapse or unexpected flush that creates silting. I would never say "without a hitch" in ANY diving event until I am safely back on dry land.


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## Orion45

lobsterman said:


> Note the key word there... *CORRECTLY*. I did not say it wasn't dangerous, but after all breathing can be hazardous to your health at times. With proper training and backup equipment, it will go without a hitch. Long lead lines are a must also.


I noted the word "correctly." Regardless, diving in an overhead environment is riskier (more dangerous) than in an open water environment, just as it's riskier to land a plane on a carrier deck than it is to land that same plane on an airport runway.


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## hjorgan

Sounds like yet another sport that there is no danger at all that I will take part in. I watched a wild alaska show where people were hurt doing stupid stunts (jumping over a highway on a snowmobile or skiing down a 300ft sheer drop). Everyday life is a thrill enough without that kind of risk.


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## ghost95

What's really amazing about cave diving accidents is that 99.999% of them are diver error. I believe that there are only 1 or 2 instances of a diver being killed by the cave it's self. 

I work with Parker Turner's brother in law. Turner was a very experienced cave explorer who was actually killed by a cave in in Indian Sink. The theory was that exhaust bubbles from a support team set up some kind of vibration that brought the roof down and silted up a narrow passage the divers had to pass through to get back. They had all the correct gear all in working condition but only Turner's buddy found a passage through the restriction.

For the most part it is all diver error so I guess, like someone said before, If you are properly trained and equipped it's probably only slightly more dangerous than Open Water Diving. Probably on par with deep or technical diving.


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## Native Diver

hjorgan said:


> After reading about the father/son tragedy I got curious. Why is cave diving so inherently more dangerous that open water? I don't dive anymore but it seems like any time you go down over 40 feet you are pretty much in the hazardous zone.


There is no quick answer to the question. Basically your in a confined overhead environment with no direct access to the surface.

There is a wide gap between a certified open water diver and a certified cave diver!

Cave diving is way more dangerous than open water diving. Just ask any life insurance company.


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## JT Powell

While I'm in agreement with overhead environment, and enclosed space being bad enough I'd say panic is the most dangerous part of it. It's a bad feeling that'll get you killed quick. I was lucky enough when I started diving/inspecting bridges to have some advice given to me by an older experienced diver. "When, not if you find yourself way up under a footing in zero vis and get disoriented you grab a piling and hold on until you can calm down and gather yourself up." 

You'd be surprised how friendly a piling can be when it happens!


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## Firefishvideo

Cave diving IS more dangerous.
I have met few avid cave divers - who have been diving for more than 20 years- who have not lost a friend to cave diving.
I don't know too many open water or even deep divers than carry that burden.
It still seems to be worth it to them though.....they love it.
I think its interesting ....but not the way I want to die.


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## chaps

I have nothing to compare it to but when I go through refresher water survival training and I am up side down in the helicopter dunker with blackened goggles, the anxiety level goes up three fold. I can't imagine being in a cave, under water and have a problem or lose sight of the opening. No thank you, not for me


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## bmoore

Orion45 is correct. You do not have direct access to the surface. The cave those fellows died in is the Eagles Nest. Take a look at it. VERY advanced cave dive..even for those fully cave certified. I used to cave dive a great deal. Pretty much stopped due to the items listed above. No fish well I dont drink so beer is not a factor..and no women.

http://www.caveatlas.com/systems/system.asp?ID=26&rating=1

http://www.floridacaves.com/eagles.htm

The Eagles Nest is not only a cave dive..but also a deep technical dive to boot. The best of both worlds..or worse..depending upon how you look at it.


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## SaltAddict

► 15:05► 15:05
vimeo.com/.../95652...
Feb 19, 2010


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## El Kabong

Something as "small" as an errant fin-kick can kill you. This isn't so much a concern in caves with sandy bottoms and high flows as in caves with mung, or clay layers and little to no flow. 

If you kick up a sand cloud in a cave, it starts to settle out immediately. If you're patient, you can see again in a minute or two. Clay, on the other hand, can take hours, or even days to settle. You'll have the rest of your life to find your way out in that zero viz.

Depth is another issue. Nitrogen and CO2 narcosis is arguably more pronounced in the colder, darker waters of a cave (to say nothing of the overhead, and buoyancy requirements). I know a few folks that deep-dive air, bit I don't know a single cave diver I'd dive with that dives deep cave without a helium mix.

While it "seems" a lot like OW diving, it isn't. Maintaining perfect buoyancy in a cave with variable-speed and variable-source currents, and depths that regularly change the buoyancy of your wetsuit/drysuit, isn't easy. Now add light discipline, navigation, life-support monitoring, buddy checks, and line laying, and it's easy to get overloaded.


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## Rofhbert

overhead environment is riskier than open water


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## Reelbait

You can find stats on cave diving incidents on the National Speleological Society site. A friend and fellow caver compiles these reports each year here: http://www.caves.org/pub/aca/
It is disheartening to see the number of cave diving accidents that result in fatalities compared to traditional caving. The NSS has a substantial cave diving section with highly experienced people.
Tanks,
Eric
NSS Life Member #44639


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## KingCrab

flcaptainbill said:


> If something happens you cannot go straight up..
> 
> Not a cave diver but I am pretty sure that most of the time it is really easy to stir up silt and then you literally cannot see your hand in front of your face.


Same as beach re-nourishment on the beach. Dumb Idea.


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## BlaineAtk

Wirelessly posted

I started cave cavern training, really enjoyed it. There are many things that seen like common sense stuff once you are told about it, just not something you think about.

When running lines, how to a avoid line traps. Never exhale and advance in a tight restriction. 

I wish I would have been able to finish. I want to get tech and cave cavern certs.


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## SHunter

Florida underwater caverns have a subtle beauty that those of us interested in geology understand and like to explore. Since I'm getting on up in age I don't plan to make any deep cave dives but I still like to look inside open caverns. We lost a guy who was an engineer over in Morrison Springs about 25 years ago. Unfortunately he was a compulsive soul who thought that he knew more than the rest of us. We all felt bad but when a person you have talked with and trained decides to do his/her own thing there was nothing that we could do. He took off from his buddy and he was found with face mask in place but air gone. Diving itself has its dangers but cave diving is much more scary when the silt envelopes you even with a light. The guy who said to stay patient is right on, or you will loose your bearings and then you are done for unless you have really good lines to follow out. Some commercial caves have some guidelines. I haven't been in a while so could not tell you the safer ones. The freshwater also cleaned my equipment well.


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## Caver2130

lobsterman said:


> Cave diving when done correctly is no more dangerous than the other types of diving, but you have to carry the proper equipment, including back up breathing bottles and a long reel so you do not get lost. Getting lost is the biggest mistake made by cave divers without experience. Me personally don't care much for it and prefer open water, if you do not panic you can work your way out of most situations. Panic is the number one killer!!!


I will 100% agree with this statement. Is it more dangerous to live in Pensacola, rather than Arkansas, because of the Hurricanes? If you are prepared, then the answer is no. Cave diving is the same way. If you seek the proper training, if you use the proper gear, and plan your dive correctly, then it is a safe activity. It is all about risk mitigation.

Cave divers live (and unfortunately die) by these rules (created through NACD accident analysis):

Training - Dive to your level of training, no further
Guideline - Have a continuous guideline to the surface
Air - Follow the rule of thirds
Decompression - ensure that you have done the proper dive plan profile
Lights - at least 3


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