# Land of the Free??



## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

I recently had a run in with a park ranger at Fort Pickens. He was upset about the location of my boat and so I tried to have a conversation with him about it since the FWC had given me different information. As I began the conversation to get a better understanding of the situation, he started screaming at me and said something I will never forget as long as I live. He said, ?I am a man in uniform and the authority out here, and you will do anything I tell you to or else!? The man?s name is Larry Edwards and to say he has an authority complex is an understatement.However, I thought about the bigger picture here, our access to the national park. I, like a lot of people, believed that we have better access to our local natural resources because of the national parks that we have in our area. I always thought we were lucky to have the parks around. I always thought the parks were for EVERYONES enjoyment, something we ALL have the right to use. I remember reading on the forum about problems at the park when it first reopened this year. I read about park rangers harassing patrons of the park and treating people like criminals for being out there. So my question is are we better off since we have national parks here? And what rights do we have to these public parks? Since I fish a lot and this is a fishing forum my research is pretty much limited to fishing and boat access to the park. I did some research and was shocked at just a few things I found!







This is a picture showing what <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">waters[/B] in Pensacola Bay and the Gulf of Mexico are owned (yes owned!) by the federal government as the Fort Pickens National Park. There are laws that pertain to these waters that I did not know about. A list of things I did not know about the water owned by the national park:<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-latin"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">1.<SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> [/B]<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">No flounder gigging allowed. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>[/B]<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpLast>Every time we have flounder gigged down the Pickens beached we have broken a federal law!<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">Spears and Gigs Closure (See also section Sec. 2.3, Fishing)<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">*Section 1.5 - 18* The following areas are closed to the use and possession of spears, gigs, spear guns, Hawaiian slings, and other similar devices, except that such devices may be on board vessels when stowed away and not available for immediate use. <P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">(a) In the Ft. Pickens area, the shore and waters adjacent to the Pensacola Bay shoreline between the Quartermaster dock location and a point 100 yards west of the rock jetties. <P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">2.[/B]<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">You cannot catch bait in these waters and leave with it to fish somewhere else, or take it home with you.<o></o>[/B]<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> [/B]Ever caught sand fleas on the beach while pompano fishing and brought the extras home to freeze? Ever caught some mullet in the cast net or cigs with a sabiki and went somewhere else to fish with them? Surprise! You broke a federal law.

<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> <SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">Taking of Bait Closure 

*Section 1.5 - 20* The taking of bait from salt water bays, sounds, ponds and lagoons shall be limited to the amount for immediate on-site personal use only. 

<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">3 <SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> It is illegal to chum with pieces of fish with in 500 ft of the Fort Pickens pier.<o></o>[/B]<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">4.<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> No commercial fishing in these waters. That?s what fouled up the bait man last year; he can?t come within a mile of the beach.<o></o>[/B]<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">These are just a few things I came up with in a short search! I?m scared to look any further!<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1"> <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">This is the part that is the scariest. The National Park statutes allow the superintendent of the park to decide what areas will be open to fishing, and even give him or her the power to end all fishing activities in the park?s waters. <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">So it is possible and within the law to prohibit all fishing and boat access in the shaded areas on the map above.[/I] The superintendent?s name is Nina A. Kelson. <o></o>[/B]

I guess my point is this: I?m tired of the government thinking they know what?s best for me! 

It used to be WE ALL owned and had a right to things like our national parks. That these parks were created for US! For mine and your benefit! For us all to have access to our natural resources!

Not the case! Have no doubt the government owns this property! Just ask Larry Edwards, if he doesn?t like what you?re doing then LOOK OUT! <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">So, I refer back to the title of this thread. Land of the free? Think so?[/B] Then take your family out to the park by boat. Park it within 200? of the old pier. Build a camp fire on the beach using driftwood you found at or below the mean high tide line. Dig a few sand fleas and use them to catch a pompano which you clean and throw the carcass in the water. Put a dozen sand fleas in the boat to take home to use on your next trip. Look around a little for a flounder to gig after dark. Then fall asleep by the fire on the beach.<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal>You just committed 7 federal crimes! You should be ashamed!


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## Snagged Line (Sep 30, 2007)

Sounds like you have CRIMINAL TENDENCIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (damn i wish i could spell)

Thanks for the information posted, I "may" have commitied a crime or two myself............maybe your new friend was picked on for being a nerd in his youth???????


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Sorry you had a bad experience. Just take the high road in life and treat them as you want to be treated, maybe it will rub off on them and they may be nicer to the next guy. Like the old saying goes a few rotten apples in the barrel. Don't let one person who doesn't treat you with the respect you deserve while enjoying our national resources spoil it for you. Best thing to do is file a complaint about the person's treatment of you, especially since you know the individuals name. FWC has a site of their own for this be it a good or bad input, I'm sure the national parks service has the same thing.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

Pickens has went to the birds. Literally. I think 4 years without people having access has got the rangers worked up that they now need to deal with people. That place used to be a place to go relax and enjoy. Now you have to worry about every tiny little rule out there or they will fine you. And they will be rude about it a lot of times if you even ask why. 

It is no longer a place to enjoy like we did in the older days. The rangers out there have gone nuts. It's like they do not want people to be out there and to enjoy everything that the park has to offer. They are too worried about camper tires being 100% on the asphault parking spots etc... and other stupid crap.


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

Amazing. 

One more thing to get me riled up about our government. I swear it's going to come down to a revolt by the people in my lifetime. Government is out of hand. Gradualism has taken it's toll.


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## Marine Scout (Nov 18, 2007)

Sorry you had this problem, but great info!!


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

There are some screwey rules out there....Now the fires, I understand, since we have the whitest beaches, it would be nice to keep it that way...but there are some strange 1's out there....:banghead


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## frydaddy (Oct 1, 2007)

pray for another hurricane


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## mdrobe2 (Oct 12, 2007)

The rangers at Ft Pickens have harassed me from time to time and I never saw what public interest they were serving. It's a shame we have folks out there earning a living off our taxes that are such a pain. Not saying they all are, just saying Matt and I both had a bad time.


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## billfishguy17 (Mar 21, 2010)

What yall need to do is get the name of the officers and write both of your US Senators and tell them how the public is bing treated. When the NPS get that from the US Senators they will start being courteous. But it's not until it rolls down from the top do they start to respect people. These beauracrats need to realize who is paying their salary.


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## bonita dan (Oct 3, 2007)

Guilty! Heard that term used in 1 or 100 of my court cases! Federal(USA),State(Florida)or National(again USA)parks system you would think applied to the folks of America for public use but it don't work that way! It's what "THEY" think is right for "US" and thats Bullsh*t! I for one say F*ck'em and "GIVE ME SAND FLEAS OR GIVE ME DEATH!" Viva Le Revolution! :moon


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## Sailor612 (Oct 3, 2007)

> *billfishguy17 (3/20/2010)*What yall need to do is get the name of the officers and write both of your US Senators and tell them how the public is bing treated. When the NPS get that from the US Senators they will start being courteous. But it's not until it rolls down from the top do they start to respect people. These beauracrats need to realize who is paying their salary.


I agree! First write the Senators then write the NPS and/or the Supervisor of Pickens! I think we all need to start (or continue)voicing our opinions/cares/worries to people that can begin doing stuff about it! We vote for the politicians, we need to hold them accountable for earning our votes! (This goes for everything that we/you have aninterest in!)
It is great that you have his name but follow through with a proper, formalcomplaint...it may be an on going issue that NPS is getting complaints for!!


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## broxson16 (Aug 25, 2008)

It is amazing that some people can act like that and get away with it....and on top of that we pay their salary. Maybe one day common sense will come into play.


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## Travis Gill (Oct 6, 2007)

I agree the rangers out there arejerks, at least the ones ive encountered. I watched a ranger write a guy fishing a $75 dollar fine becasue he shooed a blue heron away from his bait bucket becasue it was stealing his bait. He did not touch the bird just scared it away to save his bait and got slammed with a ticket for "harrassing wildlife"


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## deadeyedave (Nov 4, 2008)

I agree!!!, and to quote a line from rage against the machine,"What? The land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy!!!"

Deadeye


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## spear em (Oct 4, 2007)

> *broxson16 (3/20/2010)*It is amazing that some people can act like that and get away with it....and on top of that we pay their salary. Maybe one day common sense will come into play.


not defending the ranger, but i am sure he gets a w2 each year and has taxes automatically removed from his pay check each week and buys alot of other things that he needs in his life and never has a cashier say " oh yea you are a ranger and you are exempt from paying taxes on anything" please for the love of God find another quote other than " we pay their salary"


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## surffisher56 (Jan 30, 2010)

I hear what you are saying!! where I live here on the eastern shore of Maryland we have Assateauge National Seashore!! Great surfishing, hunting for sika deer and great duck hunting.... but you better know the rules Federal rangers take their job way too seriously here!! hell we had a lady ranger dump are shell bags out and check each shell with a magnet!! problem was it was prime time shooting ruined the day!!


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

spearem...you are so correct!!!!!! he does get a W2 each year...thanks to the american citizen who's taxes goes to paying his job! Oh and the salary he gets paid to "protect" the park is not worth the pay he receives. You see we could have a rent a guard for way less money patrol the island telling people not to leave their trash...park their tires on the asphalt and only 20 sand fleas in their bucket at anytime.



Where is hurricane Ivan?


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## King Crab (Dec 28, 2008)

All you really have to do is say your a tourist visiting the parks & some rude tourist hating Rangers verbally assaulted you. How dare they? Get SRIA involved. That'll fix em. Florida is all for the "Tourist".:boo Residents & localscan go to you know where.:shedevil


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## deadeyedave (Nov 4, 2008)

For Christ sakes, they, the fwc, tried to give me a bui in a kayak, a kayak, for Christ sakes!!! He made me take my contacts out to do the field sobriety on an uneven shelled surface. According to him, hello by the way, I failed?, bad eyes and all!!! I get transported back to okaloosa county courthouse and am presented with the lovely intoxilizer 5000, lie, machine!!! I roll the dice and came up with a .093. Bingo, I'm on my way to O.C.J. To wrap it up, it took me 6 months and several court appearances to free myself. Thank God for an understanding Judge!!!, thanks by the way!!!

Deadeye


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## Stressless (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Jason (3/20/2010)*There are some screwey rules out there....Now the fires, I understand, since we have the whitest beaches, it would be nice to keep it that way...but there are some strange 1's out there....:banghead


<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">We used to have white beaches, then the needy condo renters got the beach "renourishment" that turned most of into the shit that prevails across most of the rest of Florida.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">...Take his name, file a report with the local cops, and the park superintendant. Only via this route can his superiors take corrective action. <o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o></o><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Stressless<o></o>


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## Getsome (Sep 28, 2007)

> *choppedliver (3/20/2010)*Amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> One more thing to get me riled up about our government. I swear it's going to come down to a revolt by the people in my lifetime. Government is out of hand. Gradualism has taken it's toll.




+1


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

Thing of it is, if you call them Pak Nazis (which is my own particular term of endearment for them), someone will jump on you and try to say that you must have been the one who was breaking the rules (walking on dunes, etc).

Just like if you don't like Obama, then you are automatically racist.

This is where political correctness leads us.

I will still call them Park Nazis, because thats how they act. Let their behavior change, and they could achieve Park Ranger status. :letsdrink


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

> *angus_cow_doctor (3/21/2010)*Thing of it is, if you call them Pak Nazis (which is my own particular term of endearment for them), someone will jump on you and try to say that you must have been the one who was breaking the rules (walking on dunes, etc).
> 
> Just like if you don't like Obama, then you are automatically racist.
> 
> ...




My anecdotal observation of law enforcement officials in general is that they forgot the motto "to protect and to SERVE" a long time ago. 

I know we have some LEOs on here, who seem to be great guys. It sucks that they have to work with so many douche bags that give the profession a bad name.


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

Ranger Larry Edwards is the same Ranger that went after the campers on Ft. Pickens for having a camper tire on the sand vs. on the pavement.

And giving them a ticket for parking their extra car in a vacant camping spot.

And harassing their son when he tried to go to his Mom's campsite after 10p.m.



http://www.gulfbreezenews.com/news/2009/0910/front_page/003.html



http://pensacolafishingforum.com/fishingforum/Topic421607-2-1.aspx



http://pensacolafishingforum.com/fishingforum/Topic400788-17-1.aspx?Highlight=harassment





FYI, In the Florida District, District Ranger Terry Morris is his first line supervisor and Clayton Jordan is Chief Ranger who is designated as the

Senior Park Law Enforcement Officer (the local Ranger boss).



Chief Ranger Jordan and Park Superintendent Kelson are considered on the same level as the Park management and the Park Law Enforcement are considered separate entities. That being said, it does not hurt to email or copy to all three with your concerns.



[email protected]



[email protected]



[email protected]



And if you really want to blanket cc to more of the local NPS supervisors and their supervisors all the way to Washington, D.C. copy and paste the following into your email.



[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

I really appritiate everyone's support about this and agree with all the comments above. However with all due respect I think several of you missed my point. Yes, Larry Edwards does not serve his position as intended and should probably be forced to find a different job. But that's just a bad employee at the park, one bad apple. 

My problem is the governments completecontrol over what is supposed to be OUR park! No comments about how it is against the law to flounder gig out there? 

Do you know why there are not any boats allowed within 200' of the fishing pier or 200' of the old pier? It is because the competition between the anglers from the pier and on theboat will create a violent situation!!

That's how your government views you! An animal that must be regulated or we will attack each other if we are allowed within 200' of each other. Don't believe me look it up, 36 CFR 1.5-21. 

I have a serious problem with this!!The beach pier does not have many problems with pier goers and boaters, everyone understands the situation and we did not need the federal government to help us! 

The simple reason for this law is that therangers at pickens will have to hear lots of bitching from the pier fishermen about the boats being in their way so it is easier for them to strip a group of their freedoms and make it off limits, than to explain to these people that EVERYONE has a right to the park. 

No comments about how the government could make the entire shaded areas on the picture above off limits to boating and fishing?? Once again the government has made a power grab for complete control over something and then asked us to trust them. Well, do you???

I could easily make the agruement that we would have more rights, freedoms, control, and community benefit if the entire area was owned by Portafino! We could negotiate a contract with a private enterprize that gave us more access and thatcost park goers and tax payers NOTHING to keep it up!


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## 60hertz (Oct 1, 2007)

we haven't been "free" in quite some time. government is too big and too corrupt and is slowly creating a socialist state. hopefully us like-minded take-care-of-ourselves individuals will be able to survive the time between when the system crumbles and when we are able to rebuild our once great nation.


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## jman (Oct 5, 2007)

Just to add to the fire,

Larry Edwards is a jerk anyways. I used to work maintenance for the national park service and had a lot of dealings with him. He would sit on hwy 98 and clock cars coming by. If they did more than 5 miles an hour over the posted speed, he would give them a ticket. Also, he would go down the beach and pick up asphault and put it in the dumpster. He really pissed off the garbage man and the garbage man blew up at us bc he thought it was us. This is just a few things he did, but i know from experience that he is a jerk.........


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## redrunner (Dec 11, 2007)

Here is your quote "

Do you know why there are not any boats allowed within 200' of the fishing pier or 200' of the old pier? It is because the competition between the anglers from the pier and on theboat will create a violent situation!!"

It sounds like you operated your boat less than 200ft from the pier, and then tried to argue that the FWC said you could. If thats the case I'm glad the ranger did his job. You got a boat, dont fish around people on the pier.:doh I paid $55 to fish that pier, if you want to fish it maybe you should pay $55 and come on the pier and enjoy your "rights".


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## alle9219 (Aug 16, 2009)

> *Matt Mcleod (3/20/2010)*
> 
> I guess my point is this: I?m tired of the government thinking they know what?s best for me!
> 
> ...


Ok, hold up for a second. A lot of that info was interesting and I've never heard of some of those rules but before you start railing on the government for putting a couple rules out there stop and think for a minute.All public land is for the use for EVERYONE. That means you and me out there fishing, the family that wants to collect shells, the pier fisherman, history buffs checking out the fort and kids wanting to have a bonfire on the beach and get hammered. A lot of these uses can coexist no problem (boaters 3/4 of a mile off the beach and pier fishermen)and thats great. Sometimes these uses aren'tcompatible. Obviously if you're a dad taking your kids to the beach, do you want there to be broken glass and charcoal littered about waiting for your children to stepon? No, but dammit we have our rights don't we? Its called multiple use policy.Sometimes it seems to make everyone a little unhappy but like you said, these arepublic lands for EVERYONE to use, notjust fishermen, so the rules are there so it can be enjoyed equally. If you want more examples look at state and national forests and regulations to provide for logging, mining, hunting,fishing, camping and habitat protection. Some of those activities are complementary (hunting, fishing, habitat protection)but others are contradictory (mining and habitat protection for example)and so they get restricted, sometimes arbitrarily so that the miners and mine, andthewildlife watcherscan see the wildlife. You can't please everyone but you can restrict everyone a little bit to keep everyone happy enough to enjoy what they're doing.


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## JLMass (Oct 1, 2007)

The Reason the Park was created was to one protect the land from development and to set it aside for the use of the public and to maintain the land for future use they set up laws since all wild life is protected in the park including marine life which is why they have the gigging laws, its the same as they dont let you kill buffalo in Yellowstone or shooting bald eagles at mt Rainer they treat all these areas the same because they want to maintain them, the rangers are acting strange probably because they have not had human contact in 4 years and are not sure how to handle situations correctly so just complain a lot and they will act better.









would you rather have the park or some tourist resort which you would not have access too


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## pmurphy (Aug 24, 2009)

Really??? I don't think gigging flounder can be compared to shooting a bison or a bald eagle. I'm from Mississippi and have never been to Pickens but I read the forum and there are a lot of complaints about the rangers on here. Seems like they are a little cocky for whatever reason. The no gigging rule bothers me a lot. What would make them put something like that on the books? Pickens is part of the Gulf Islands National Seashore and so is our Davis Bayou park over here. Reading this post made me look curious about the regs over here. I looked them up and it follows the state regs. It has no special rules as far as fishing methods. Gigging flounder is perfectly legal. I agree with the other posters. Start sending emails to the higher ups. Even if the law doesn't change you shouldn't have to talked down to by someone with an inferiority complex.


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## King Crab (Dec 28, 2008)

As a pier fisherman,I wouldnt have any problem with a boat on the old pier poles doing whatever but dont get close to where the new pier is where people payed the park service to fish on the pier. The problem with some boaters is they dont think about lines in the water& a possible "fish on" situation where the line will or could be way out off the pier. On P-bch pier it happens all the time. Get a nice fish on, Here comes old boater to possibly screw it up. When that happens, Bad scene! Could you Imagine hooking a nice Marlin or Wahoo & another Boater cuts you off? :blownaway Thats how angry that coulld make someone. As far as gigging for flounder at Ft.P, Ive done it to many times to remeber over the years & never heard that rule or it enforced. Park rangers are people too & I'm sure this one guy has a list of complaints a mile long. Once his Supv, gets tired of hearing them, Things will change. Maybe we should all go out there fishing one day, Ask for him to show us all the points of fishing FT.P& his reasons whyanyone should come back out there in front of his supv.:shedevil When a public oriented crowd shows up, Shii happens.:clap


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## Death From Above (Sep 28, 2007)

Flounder gigging in the shaded area is by special permit only and I'm the only U.S. citizen who has been issued a permit. 

Don't let me see none of you gigging in the shaded area. I have the Ranger station on speed dial and you will definately get a ticket.And I will be off in the distance (with my lights turned off) watching Larry chew your ass.


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## spear em (Oct 4, 2007)

> *captwesrozier (3/21/2010)*spearem...you are so correct!!!!!! he does get a W2 each year...thanks to the american citizen who's taxes goes to paying his job! Oh and the salary he gets paid to "protect" the park is not worth the pay he receives. You see we could have a rent a guard for way less money patrol the island telling people not to leave their trash...park their tires on the asphalt and only 20 sand fleas in their bucket at anytime.
> 
> Where is hurricane Ivan?


well there mr.Captain, all you got to do is sign on the dotted line and ask for his job. like i said before, i am not defending his attitude, i simply stated he pays taxes just like you, so he actually pays into his on paycheck. and the last time i checked, taxes was not an option, they took it out of our our paychecks. and if you do wind up getting his job, tell your employer that you are tax exempt because the american citizen pays your salary and you will never have to pay taxes again. like i said get off the " hey man i pay your salary " crutch. and if you want to, come ride a a 12 hour shift in my beat, and let some low life thug say that to your face. never mind you could not do it, go catch a fish.


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

Why do you think there are these rules in existance in the first place? Do you think some desk jockey's sat around one day to think up these rules for the heck of it?

No, somewhere at sometime too many people were abusing the privilege of no rules, abused the privilege and these rules are the result.



Just so you know, The Fort Pickens Aquatic Preserve is actually a Florida State Park owned by the state of Florida.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/coastal/sites/ftpickens/info.htm http://www.dep.state.fl.us/coastal/sites/ftpickens/ http://www.stateparks.com/fort_pickens__aquatic_preserve.htmlestablished in 1970 which predates the establishment of the National Seashore by at least one year. It is considered outside the following boundaries as listed below:



In the Perdido Key, Fort Pickens, and Santa Rosa Areas the National Seashore boundary extends on the north to the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway (designated shipping channel) and on the south one mile from the low tide line of the island. 



The Fort Pickens Aquatic Preserve extends three miles south of the coast, the first mile is within the National Seashore and the next two miles out are outside the National Seashore and actually owned by Florida State Parks system.


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

Section 1.5 - 18 The following areas are closed to the use and possession of spears, gigs, spear guns, Hawaiian slings, and other similar devices, except that such devices may be on board vessels when stowed away and not available for immediate use.



(a) In the Ft. Pickens area, the shore and waters adjacent to the Pensacola Bay shoreline between the Quartermaster dock location and a point 100 yards west of the rock jetties. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The only area off limits to Flounder gigging is the last 2.8 miles of the northern shore of the Fort Pickens area. Out to the Intracoastal shipping channel. The other 4.5 miles to the east is open to flounder gigging as well as all waters on the south shore.



So what exactly was the problem with your boat location for Ranger Edwards anyways??


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## Death From Above (Sep 28, 2007)

> *johnsonbeachbum (3/21/2010)*Section 1.5 - 18 The following areas are closed to the use and possession of spears, gigs, spear guns, Hawaiian slings, and other similar devices, except that such devices may be on board vessels when stowed away and not available for immediate use.
> 
> (a) In the Ft. Pickens area, the shore and waters adjacent to the Pensacola Bay shoreline between the Quartermaster dock location and a point 100 yards west of the rock jetties.
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> ...


You are correct. That 2.8 stretch is mine.


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

Now DFA, we all know you don't care anything about the Pickens shore for gigging! oke


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## Dylan (Apr 15, 2008)

I was on the boat with Matt...Larry was mad at us


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## Dylan (Apr 15, 2008)




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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *redrunner (3/21/2010)*Here is your quote "
> 
> Do you know why there are not any boats allowed within 200' of the fishing pier or 200' of the old pier? It is because the competition between the anglers from the pier and on theboat will create a violent situation!!"
> 
> It sounds like you operated your boat less than 200ft from the pier, and then tried to argue that the FWC said you could. If thats the case I'm glad the ranger did his job. You got a boat, dont fish around people on the pier.:doh I paid $55 to fish that pier, if you want to fish it maybe you should pay $55 and come on the pier and enjoy your "rights".




Redrunner, I'd be happy to tell you where my boat was. First I would like to say that after my research I found out that MYSELF AND THE FWC I TALKED TO WAS WRONG AND LARRY EDWARDS WAS RIGHT. I would never lie or mislead anyone and I don't think I have. I had a problem with how Larry Edwards treated me when I asked him to clarify the situation for me. 

Now back to your question. My boat was NOT within 200' of the fishing pier, I was on the east side of the old pier. There is a sign on the fishing pier that says stay 200' away, there is no sign on the old pier. At no time was I in any position that would effect anyone fishing from the pier as I was 300+ feet away and there was a big concrete pier between us. 

This is my point. Do I think someone should park their boat 10' off the pier and start fishing? No I don't. I think that would be rude and inconsiderate to fellow fishermen and that's something I would never do. However do I think the federal government should take it upon themselves to make laws against it? Hell No!

*Do you think the government should be involved in monitoring and mandatingcourtesy between fishermen?* Do you redrunner? Do you johnsonbeachbum? How about you JLMass?

I drank the koolaid about all the "advantages" that the national parks give us too. And maybe my new outlook is wrong. But I got to know, and maybe JLMass or JBB or redrunner can help me with this. *Why does the government need to have the power to close the Pensacola pass from boating and fishing traffic? *

I am not singling you guys out as a personnal attack so please don't take it that way. I respect your opinions and am enjoying this disscussion. 

We are trusting the federal government with the power that they have. How are the feds doing with the red snappers? How's that going for everybody?


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

spear em...once again you have it correct!!!!!!



not only can i not do what you do for 12 hours i do not want to. i prefer to fish for a living!



as for the park ranger...you may not pay is salary but i do and as long as i pay his salary i expect respect when he is talking to me or answering my questions and concerns.



now it sounds as though you maybe receiving your salary from the tax payers. if so i expect respect from you as well. if you cannot handle the fact you are paid by the tax payers find another job!!!!!



as far as a crutch...the truth is the truth! this is why capt matt posted this thread. the man in uniform was showing no respect to a tax paying citizen end of story.



oh by the way...care to share what you do for a living? if you do not i understand.


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## redrunner (Dec 11, 2007)

Matt, you sound like a boater that is considerate to other fisherman. If you were on the east side of old pier that would not effect the fishing pier. But a lot of boaters are not considerate, I have been set up on the beach (east side of old pier) with lines out, and had boats come right up on me and look at me like I'm not supposed to be there. (thus the 200' from old pier rule)I have also been on the pier and had boats anchor on the north side of old pier, thats a break off for a good fish. We have even been cut off by boats coming by too close. Unfortunately a lot of boaters do not have your curtesy and common sense and need to be regulated by laws. If everyone used thier brain we wouldn't need these rules. I hate you were treated disrespectfully by the ranger, he should have been more profesional.


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## Death From Above (Sep 28, 2007)

> *angus_cow_doctor (3/21/2010)*Now DFA, we all know you don't care anything about the Pickens shore for gigging! oke


True


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## JLMass (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Matt Mcleod (3/21/2010)*
> 
> 
> > *redrunner (3/21/2010)*Here is your quote "
> ...




Fishing usually has alcohol involved at some point and the addition of this with fishing may lead to altercations in which it may be easier to keep fishermen away from each other then to tell them to stop drinking 



they might need to close the pass to let a carrier or other large navy ship in


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## JLMass (Oct 1, 2007)

> *pmurphy (3/21/2010)*Really??? I don't think gigging flounder can be compared to shooting a bison or a bald eagle. I'm from Mississippi and ......... rest of what you said im not talking about .............




yes it can, and i just did


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Very interesting thoughts from you guys. I guess I just feel differently about it. 

So redrunner, you do thinks its the gov job to regulate courtesy between fishermen? You're willing to surrender yourfreedom for this? 

And JLMass, I would agrue there is a BIG difference in giving a military ship a wide berth to navigate inland waterways and having the power toclose the pass and miles of surrounding water from boating and fishing activity. I notice that in your signiture there are people from history who fought for freedom and people who fought to take freedom, until now I thought I knew which ones you viewed in a positive light. What does freedom mean to you?


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## redrunner (Dec 11, 2007)

> *Matt Mcleod (3/22/2010)*Very interesting thoughts from you guys. I guess I just feel differently about it.
> 
> So redrunner, you do thinks its the gov job to regulate courtesy between fishermen? You're willing to surrender yourfreedom for this?
> 
> And JLMass, I would agrue there is a BIG difference in giving a military ship a wide berth to navigate inland waterways and having the power toclose the pass and miles of surrounding water from boating and fishing activity. I notice that in your signiture there are people from history who fought for freedom and people who fought to take freedom, until now I thought I knew which ones you viewed in a positive light. What does freedom mean to you?


I'm not surrendering any freedom, I dont have a boat and if I did I wouldnt go anywhere near the pier.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *redrunner (3/22/2010)*
> 
> 
> > *Matt Mcleod (3/22/2010)*Very interesting thoughts from you guys. I guess I just feel differently about it.
> ...




Ok, lets put the shoe on the other foot. No fishing from land within 200' of the old pier or any of the jetty's at Fort Pickens. This is neccessary to avoid violence between anglers on the shore and anglers on boats. 

This would not effect me because I fish from a boat. However I have a serious problem with this because it takes away someone's freedom, might not be mine this time, but it doesn't matter to me causefreedom lost is freedom lost.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *JLMass (3/22/2010)*
> 
> 
> > *Matt Mcleod (3/21/2010)*
> ...


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## redrunner (Dec 11, 2007)

> *Matt Mcleod (3/22/2010)*
> 
> 
> > *redrunner (3/22/2010)*
> ...


.

The shoe is already on the other foot, there are rules that say I cant shorefish from a boat landing. And since that makes sense to me, I accept it, and go to a fishing pier instead. Why do people with boats, that can go anywhere in the bay and gulf insist on fishing right on top of land based fisherman? Is the fishing that much better by the pier? Then save gas $$ and come on out to the pier. See, you have both options, thats alot of freedom.


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## FreeLine (Oct 5, 2007)

Matt, I stopped going to all national parks a long time ago. I have had run-ins with park rangers at Naval Live Oaks and Johnson Beach a long time ago for doing similar innocent things - like fishing after the sun goes down (not at night just after the sun sets). It always seemed crazy to me that the parks are only opened to fishermen from 8 am to sundown. Why are the parks closed to fishermen during the times that the fish usually bite?


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

I can understand the distance from the pier rule!!!!! :doh

http://www.orangebeachfishingforum.com/fishingforum/Topic387393-2-1.aspx?Highlight=slinging+lead


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## JLMass (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Matt Mcleod (3/22/2010)*
> 
> 
> > *JLMass (3/22/2010)*
> ...


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## konz (Oct 1, 2007)

Funny, I called and spoke to Chief Jordan last year about flounder gigging and he told me I was fine as long as I stayed away from the jetties and the pier..........sheeesh


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Matt Mcleod (3/21/2010)*
> 
> *Do you think the government should be involved in monitoring and mandatingcourtesy between fishermen?* Do you johnsonbeachbum? *<U>No, I do not, but you can thank a few people in the past, (visitors, tourist, fishermen, boaters, etc.) for the loss of your unmonitored and unmandated courtesies.</U>*
> 
> I drank the koolaid about all the "advantages" that the national parks give us too. And maybe my new outlook is wrong. But I got to know, and maybe JLMass or JBB or redrunner can help me with this. *Why does the government need to have the power to close the Pensacola pass from boating and fishing traffic?* <U>*Someone government agency is going to have the power to do so if deemed appropriate. Maybe it should be Homeland Security?*</U>


*<U>P.S. the 200 foot rule applies to both the new fishing pier as well as the old pier structure.</U>*


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Dylan (3/21/2010)*I was on the boat with Matt...Larry was mad at us


So now explain why he was mad.

Tell us "the rest of the story"


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## wrightackle (Oct 29, 2007)

All the times I have talked with Matt and Dylan they have both been curteous and easy going. There is no "rest of the story". They just encountered someone who wanted to throw their weight around.


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

From what has been posted, apparently they had their boat within 200 feet of the old pier. 

Just because there are no signs on the old pier does not mean the rule is suspended. Just like fishing rules are enforced even though there are no signs posted every 100 feet all over the gulf.



I imagine Edwards made an effort to inform them that they would have to move off their spot until they were outside the 200 feet.



In a subsequent post the statement is:

"I had a problem with how Larry Edwards treated me when I asked him to clarify the situation for me."



Maybe Edwards did not like the words used or the tone or manner in the way they were presented. Or he just didn't want to spend anytime explaining why they were being told to move off.



We do not know anything more detailed as to why Edwards was even talking to them other than they were too close to the old pier.


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## Stuart H. Brown (Oct 4, 2007)

Matt, you just happened to run into the worst of the worst. Officer Larry gives all law enforcement as well as park employees a bad image. Most allincidents you hear aboutinvolve him. I'd complain to the higher ups. Hedefinately needssome anger management classes. And as much as I high hate taxes/fees/licenses andgovernment interventiona required boaters course wouldn't be such a bad idea. I cannot think of any other situation where you can purchase a vehicle of whatever size or makeup you want and operate it on public property. Way too many people without a clue out driving boats with no regard for anyone else. This incident may not have ever happened if everyone was required to be educated about thesevery laws/rules. SHB


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *johnsonbeachbum (3/22/2010)*
> 
> From what has been posted, apparently they had their boat within 200 feet of the old pier.
> Just because there are no signs on the old pier does not mean the rule is suspended. Just like fishing rules are enforced even though there are no signs posted every 100 feet all over the gulf.
> ...


I'm sorry I thought I had addressed this in an earlier post but I guess it wasn't clear. My point wasn't really to make this about Larry Edwards. My point was that due to my experience with this officer I did some research about out rights at the park and was surprised at what I learned. 

With that being said since I have been asked to clarify what happened I would be glad to.

Today I contacted the chief ranger for the park, his name is Clay Jordan. I made a complaint by way of an informal complaint against Larry Edwards. An informal complaint is done over the phone and is supposed to result in an internal investigation into the incident. A formal complaint is made in writing and carries with it a oath type situation in which you swear that your story is truthful. I was emailed the paperwork for my formal complaint and will submit it in the next couple days. I have no problem putting my version of events in writingand would welcome anyone who was there to contest my story.

Clay Jordan dealt with my complaint VERY professionally, making sure I clearly understood the process and seemed to be truly concerned about my experience.

So let's get to what happened. My boat was located on the east side of the old pier. I was approx 50' from the old pier and probably 300+ feet from the fishing pier. As many people know there is a sign on the fishing pier that states "No boats or swimmers within 200 feet". I was outside that radius. As I found out later due to my own research I was in violation of part b of statute 36 CFR 1.5-21 which states that boats must also be 200' from the remnants of the old pier. At the time I did not know this and in fact had been given information that was false from state law enforcement. 

So Larry Edwards came down to the end of the fishing pier and let the few boats that were near the fishing pier know that they had to leave. I was the last boat that he communicated with because I was the furthest from him. I tried to communicate with him that I had been told that I was allowed to be where I was, but due to the distance we had a hard time communicating. That was the only time my voice was elevated and that was strictly due to the distance between us. My tone was calm and collected at that time and for the entire experience. At this point he called me over to the fishing pier, I thought so we could communicate better. At no time did I refuse to leave or become disrespectful. I trolling motored over to the fishing pier and began the conversation with "I don't mean to cause a problem here but I have been given different information about the rules around here and would like some clarification". Well I got as far as "I don't mean to cause a problem here but...... and Officer Edwards began to scream at me. I describedhis attitude and tone to Clay Jordan as "furious" "angry" and "out of control", which is exactly what it was. 

Once again let me say at no point did I raise my voice, become aggressive, or do anything to make him believe I did not plan on leaving the prohibited area. I thought I was going to get information to help me clarify where I was allowed to be and where I was not allowed to be.That did not happen, he was much more concerned with screaming at me than helping me understand the rules. 

Officer Edwards told me something I will never forget as long as I live.He said "I am a man in uniform and the authority out here, and you will do anything I tell you to!" Clay Jordan found this statement as shocking and appalling as I did, and when asked made it clear that that statementin no way resembles their policy at the park. 

It did not take long to figure out that me getting screamed at was not going to get me the information or clarification I wanted so I told Larry to have a nice day, and promptly left. 

My formal compliant will be just like the statement above. I believe that I was treated with no respect by someone who I treated with respect. His position exists to serve me, to serve us, the patrons of the park and citizens of our country. I don't believe that Larry Edwards exhibits qualities that make it possible for him to interact with the community in a civil servant position.


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## JLMass (Oct 1, 2007)

Matt what did you do too tyler he came home at 6:30 and went to sleep .................................. also i was only protecting the right of the park to exist not the people who work there


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## broxson16 (Aug 25, 2008)

*I believe that I was treated with no respect by someone who I treated with respect. His position exists to serve me, to serve us, the patrons of the park and citizens of our country.*





Well said Matt.


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## user10068 (Sep 7, 2009)

Matt - I copied the last sentence from your last post - you are saying that Officer Edwards is fit to"interact with the community" and I do not believe that is your intent.

"I don't believe that Larry Edwards exhibits qualities that make it impossible for him to interact with the community in a civil servant position."

I would suggesteither one of the two modifications:

"I believe that...."

or

"...that make it possible for him...".

The dreaded double negative strikes again.


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## BOHUNTER1 (Feb 18, 2008)

LITTLE MAN SYNDROME!

Send emails everyday until you get the right response. Make sure you include Larrys email to them. Speak of local papers and other formats of the issues regarding Ft Pickens Authorties. I have never had an isse but then again I have never spent more than a few minutes out there of late. If he verbally assaults you, discriminates you, or harrasses you, thenfile a Personal Suit against him. After that file a Federal suit against him... Nothing like being served some papers and you not knowing what they are for. He wont sleep and it will cause him issues!

:O)


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *JohnHYoung (3/23/2010)*Matt - I copied the last sentence from your last post - you are saying that Officer Edwards is fit to"interact with the community" and I do not believe that is your intent.
> 
> "I don't believe that Larry Edwards exhibits qualities that make it impossible for him to interact with the community in a civil servant position."
> 
> ...


Whoops! Got it fixed now, thanks.


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

Very nicely explained, thank you.



And I agree with your assessment and your position with Edwards.

It would be tremendously beneficial for all if your fishing buddies that were on the boat filed the same papers as you. The more eyewitnesses the better.



Personally I would like to see Edwards removed from his duties as a Ranger for similar actions on Johnson Beach.

This is at least the fourth time he has been reported being a tyrant. 



He came here from another park after being forced out and demoted for the same type of conduct.



Back to your original intent of your post being the loss of freedoms in the park......................



99% of all rules and laws we run into in life are the result of people before you causing problems. 

If everyone behaved all the time there would be no rules.


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## spear em (Oct 4, 2007)

> *captwesrozier (3/21/2010)*spear em...once again you have it correct!!!!!!
> 
> not only can i not do what you do for 12 hours i do not want to. i prefer to fish for a living!
> 
> ...


oh yea i am more than happy to share what i do for a living CAPTAIN, i am a third generation LEO. my grandfather, my father and i have proudly served the public for over sixty years combined. did someone put a gun to my head and make me take this job ? hell no, i did it because i wanted to serve others. again, i am not defending the ranger or his attitude. i dont know the man and it sounds like i dont want to know the man based on what has been typed by other people. and no i will not find another job, i love my job and all of the laughs and abuse that comes with it. would you roll out of bed tonight and leave your wife and child and lay your life on the line for me ? no you would not. would i do it for you and any other person on this earth being a tax payer or not ? YES SIR i would. and again before you start beating your chest and screaming " i am a tax payer, kneel down and show me some respect " the lady at the license office is a tax payer, the garbage man is a tax payer, even theillegal alien that just bought some gas and clothing paidtaxes on his purchase. and as far as end of story, i will end my story on my own terms not yours.

bash away Captain, i am through with this. 

and as far as you MR. Ranger, if you are treating people like this while serving in a uniform, please do the rest of us a favor and find another line of work, you make itvery hard on us older guys.


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