# 44 Day Red Snapper Season for Florida



## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

FWC just voted unanimously for 44 day Snapper Season starting June 1.


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

Nice

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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

So basically all states except Alabama are now non-compliant with the Feds?? I guess I didn't even realize that was still an option for Florida at this point in the game...


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Wharf Rat said:


> So basically all states except Alabama are now non-compliant with the Feds?? I guess I didn't even realize that was still an option for Florida at this point in the game...


MS & AL sure to follow soon I'm sure.


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

My home state of Alabama is beginning to thoroughly disappoint me

When did ms go non compliant?


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

cool, what were the feds calling for (number of fishing days?)


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

Realtor said:


> cool, what were the feds calling for (number of fishing days?)


27 days


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

Now Alabamas season will get chopped and hopefully force non compliance


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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

Where can I find this on the interweb


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## ironman (Oct 18, 2007)

Alabama going non-compliant would only be symbolic. There are not many, if any, places to catch snapper within 3 miles. I think they should demand the 9 mile state boundary like others.


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*Fwc*

Are you sure cause the meeting in Orlando just started not saying they didn't but seems kind of strange


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

FRA posted a live broadcast to watch on the web. If you are a member you will have a message in your email also. It will probably be on this afternoon news also.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

billin said:


> Are you sure cause the meeting in Orlando just started not saying they didn't but seems kind of strange


Just listened to the FWC meeting with my own ears and heard the vote myself.


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## marmidor (Mar 15, 2008)

If true then it's a dang good start!!!


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## marmidor (Mar 15, 2008)

The LaJess II said:


> Just listened to the FWC meeting with my own ears and heard the vote myself.


Nice thanks for the heads up capt!


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Realtor said:


> cool, what were the feds calling for (number of fishing days?)


Feds were calling for 27 if LA did not go non compliant. If LA goes non compliant which they will would only be 17 days. Now with Fl it will be probably 0 days.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

Matt and Krueger are there and it was just voted 7-0 by commissioners to go non-compliant! This is really the first step, it will go for final vote April 17-18 in Tallahassee. We need a lot of public support, Hot Spots and Outcast will be paying for buses to take people over in April...


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

ironman said:


> Alabama going non-compliant would only be symbolic. There are not many, if any, places to catch snapper within 3 miles. I think they should demand the 9 mile state boundary like others.


Symbolic to a degree. If the guys from AMRD checked your fish and didn't ask where, than it would have the same effect.


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*Ahhh*

Just got an email dang that was quick


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

This is the email from FRA read below the head line for further comments.


*FLORIDA sets 44 day red snapper season*

In an act designed to show their total disgust with NMFS' management of Red Snapper, Florida just voted to go with a 44 day red snapper season in state waters. 
The federal charter permit holders will be screwed by NMFS over this. They are looking to file a class action lawsuit against NMFS. We will support that legal maneuver.
And the band plays on.....
Watch it all live now at www.thefra.org/fisheyewide.htm 

*www.thefra.org*


 This email was sent to [email protected] by [email protected] | 
Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe™ | Privacy Policy.

Fishing Rights Alliance | 4604 49th Street North, #34 | St. Petersburg | Florida | 33709


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

The question I have is why only 44 days?


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

DI 310 said:


> The question I have is why only 44 days?


I agree, but it's better than 27....

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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

Good stuff. Hopefully things stay on the right path....


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

It's a start in the right direction and it could easily change before June or when the new stock assessment comes out!


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## phantomcc (May 25, 2010)

What does this mean for tourists (like myself) when I come down like
to take all my kids on headboats multiple times a season?
Are the headboats still able to target ARS but in State Waters?


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

DI 310 said:


> The question I have is why only 44 days?


I may be wrong I got a phone call in the middle but I believe they said could be longer after assessment is done. Will have to check on that or Matt can fill us in on that part.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

phantomcc, Not with the current rules, but a lawsuit will likely solve the problem...


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

Theres got to be a reason for those amount of days. Just trying to figure out why that particular number.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Chris Phillips said:


> Matt and Krueger are there and it was just voted 7-0 by commissioners to go non-compliant! This is really the first step, it will go for final vote April 17-18 in Tallahassee. We need a lot of public support, Hot Spots and Outcast will be paying for buses to take people over in April...


Thanks to Matt for going to Orlando to the meeting, and thanks to Hot Spots and Outcast for stepping up for the buses!


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

That is very good news. It is just another conformation of what we have been saying all along.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Thanks to Matt for going to Orlando to the meeting, and thanks to Hot Spots and Outcast for stepping up for the buses!


x2 and to all the others out there that has put a lot of time into this. Great job to all.:thumbup:


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

Now we have to see how defiant our state will be when the feds fire back and say no federal snapper this year. Will they buckle down or tell the feds we will not enforce their federal waters either?


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## timekiller (Mar 3, 2010)

I think the reason for the 44 days vs. 27 is they wanted to double the number of days, but forgot to carry the 1. I'm just kidding of course.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

I have a feeling this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better! I would love to see and hear what Roy is doing right now...


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Chris Phillips said:


> I have a feeling this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better! I would to see and hear what Roy is doing right now...


I know I don't have to tell you this Chris, but others should NOT underestimate him. I could see his next move being to try and make areas in Federal waters "no fishing zones" eliminating all fishing in federal waters. This should concern those who say "who cares I don't bottom fish". Federal no fishing zones would shut down blue water fisherman.... The man will not stop until someone stops him...


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## Flatspro (Oct 3, 2007)

First of thanks to Matt and Krueger for going today! Second we just need to fill the buses headed to Tallahassee in April to get this process completed. Thanks Chris and Tommy for the buses I will be on one of them!


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## marmidor (Mar 15, 2008)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> I know I don't have to tell you this Chris, but others should NOT underestimate him. I could see his next move being to try and make areas in Federal waters "no fishing zones" eliminating all fishing in federal waters. This should concern those who say "who cares I don't bottom fish". Federal no fishing zones would shut down blue water fisherman.... The man will not stop until someone stops him...


Just reading this makes my blood boil. Crabtree is just the snake to do it! I can't imagine not being able to fish the edge or nipple because some jack-leg thinks he has it figured out.


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## norris555 (Jun 22, 2009)

Question, can you have fish that were caught in Florida waters during legal Florida season with Florida fishing license in Alabama waters? Or will you have to launch from Florida and return to Florida and only stay in Florida waters. Thanks


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

We still need people to sign this Petition if you haven't already. lol


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

I would wait until April until I got my hopes up. Peace and tight lines.


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## capthoop (Oct 28, 2007)

phantomcc said:


> What does this mean for tourists (like myself) when I come down like
> to take all my kids on headboats multiple times a season?
> Are the headboats still able to target ARS but in State Waters?


I am from La. and that question is still up in the air. We are still left hanging on this one. It all will land on the decision of King Crabby and his enviro freeks. He has dug his own grave but does not want to lie down in it yet.


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## hjorgan (Sep 30, 2007)

this crap is going to turn me into a fresh-water fisherman again.
Anybody want to buy some snapper gear cheap?


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> I know I don't have to tell you this Chris, but others should NOT underestimate him. I could see his next move being to try and make areas in Federal waters "no fishing zones" eliminating all fishing in federal waters. This should concern those who say "who cares I don't bottom fish". Federal no fishing zones would shut down blue water fisherman.... The man will not stop until someone stops him...


We have been headed in that direction all along. I just as soon do battle with him now and lets see where we land. NOAA VISION 2020 pretty much spells it out. I don't care to wait for 2020.


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## capthoop (Oct 28, 2007)

norris555 said:


> Question, can you have fish that were caught in Florida waters during legal Florida season with Florida fishing license in Alabama waters? Or will you have to launch from Florida and return to Florida and only stay in Florida waters. Thanks


The rule in all states is Possession. Don't matter where you caught them if you are in another state you have to abide by their laws.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

The LaJess II said:


> We have been headed in that direction all along. I just as soon do battle with him now and lets see where we land. NOAA VISION 2020 pretty much spells it out. I don't care to wait for 2020.


I agree 100% and have read myself what Vision 2020 says. Momentum is finally on OUR side for the first time in 15 plus years. We should not ask for the minimum, but for the MAXIMUM on everything and see that Crabtree along with all the other corrupt idiots along with Jane herself loses their jobs and is out of the picture. TOTAL Restructure....


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

The final decision will be in April but this is a great start! 

The "44 days" number was based approximately on last years season. That number can change either up or down but the idea was to at least limit this lunacy to last years season length.

They are discussing yellowtail snapper right now but if anything else happens ill let everybody know.


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanks Matt! I guess us permit holders are screwed. At least i have another commercial vessel i can transfer the federal permits to!!


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

For those who have not read this, this is copied directly from NOAA's website. This is how serious this matter is, and why it is so important to get on this train while the momentum is in our favor now.....

*Preferred State in 2020: *Many recreational species have limited population growth rates and are too valuable to be caught only once. *By 2020, catch and release fishing is emphasized and accounted for in specific species assessments*. The proper techniques for release are refined and disseminated to lower post release mortality. For other fisheries, minimum size limits and reduced daily bag limits are sufficient management measures to maintain healthy standing stocks. Additional seasonal closures are considered to eliminate or redirect effort. *By 2020, angler satisfaction is derived from the recreational fishing experience rather than the take or "kill" fish.* To achieve optimum yield, adaptive management measures such as a temporary reallocation of quota is available to managers. ​


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

Chris Phillips said:


> I have a feeling this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better! I would love to see and hear what Roy is doing right now...


You saw the other day when LA went non compliant that they gace crabtrap more power to overcome the obstacles of the States rights.


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

Sickening. Sure, lets spend thousands on overnighters to the rigs for "the experience".


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

Lobsterman, They gave him the authority to close federal waters off states who are non-compliant which is really stupid in my opinion. I think these states already know he's going to close their federal waters. That's a ploy to try to get FL to stay compliant saying we'll leave your waters open if you play by my rules regardless what LA does. The problem is he can't do that, I've heard him say a thousand times he's just following the law (Magnuson Stevens Act). When the TAC is reached it's done, doesn't matter where in the Gulf the fish was caught. 

I expect to see him try to enforce some sort of regulations on the states, but that goes well beyond my current knowledge of the laws and I would think it would have to go before the house and congress.


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

grouper22 said:


> Sickening. Sure, lets spend thousands on overnighters to the rigs *for "the experience*".


 
That is precisely where they are headed with the whole enchalada.


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

Hand me the dehooker so i can release this 125 pound yellow fin!!
Wow what a great experience! Now hand me a burger off of the grill!


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## catdad100 (Nov 17, 2009)

It was mentioned earlier that the 44 days could possibly be increased depending on an upcoming stock acessment so anybody have any idea when that data is coming out?


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## 192 (Oct 1, 2007)

LITECATCH said:


> Hand me the dehooker so i can release this 125 pound yellow fin!!
> Wow what a great experience! Now hand me a burger off of the grill!


naw, I will spring for some conecuh!


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

Tuna burger!


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> For those who have not read this, this is copied directly from NOAA's website. This is how serious this matter is, and why it is so important to get on this train while the momentum is in our favor now.....​
> 
> 
> *Preferred State in 2020: *Many recreational species have limited population growth rates and are too valuable to be caught only once. *By 2020, catch and release fishing is emphasized and accounted for in specific species assessments*. The proper techniques for release are refined and disseminated to lower post release mortality. For other fisheries, minimum size limits and reduced daily bag limits are sufficient management measures to maintain healthy standing stocks. Additional seasonal closures are considered to eliminate or redirect effort. *By 2020, angler satisfaction is derived from the recreational fishing experience rather than the take or "kill" fish.* To achieve optimum yield, adaptive management measures such as a temporary reallocation of quota is available to managers. ​


 
My guess is the VISION 2020 leads to the below. He is after the Gulf for Aquaculture. Feds want to stop the import of seafood that cost 9 billion a year. Just follow the money. Google Aquaculture in the Gulf of Mexico.


National Marine Fisheries Service166. Fishery Management Plan for Regulating Offshore Marine Aquaculture in the Gulf of Mexico Legal Authority: 16 U.S.C. 1801 et seq. Abstract: The purpose of this fishery management plan (FMP) is to develop a regional permitting process for regulating and promoting environmentally sound and economically sustainable aquaculture in the Gulf of Mexico (Gulf) exclusive economic zone. This FMP consists of ten actions, each with an associated range of management alternatives, which would facilitate the permitting of an estimated 5 to 20 offshore aquaculture operations in the Gulf over the next 10 years, with an estimated annual production of up to 64 million[[Page 1541]]pounds. By establishing a regional permitting process for aquaculture, the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council will be positioned to achieve their primary goal of increasing maximum sustainable yield and optimum yield of federal fisheries in the Gulf by supplementing harvest of wild caught species with cultured product. Timetable: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Action Date FR Cite ------------------------------------------------------------------------Notice of Availability.............. 06/04/09 74 FR 26829 NOA Comment Period End.............. 08/03/09 NPRM................................ 03/00/13 Final Action........................ 07/00/13 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the link to Federal Registry this was copied from.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-01-08/html/2012-31489.htm


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

FWC News Release

*http://myfwc.com/news/news-releases/2013/february/13/red-snapper/*



*Commission proposes 2013 Gulf recreational red snapper season in state waters*

*News Release*
Wednesday, February 13, 2013
Media contact: Amanda Nalley, 850-410-4943

(Back to Commission meeting news)
The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) proposed a 44-day recreational red snapper season for Gulf of Mexico state waters at its meeting Feb. 13 in Orlando.
This season would start June 1 and end July 14. The proposed 2013 season is inconsistent with the current proposed federal season, which is currently expected to be about 27 days but may be shortened once state seasons in all Gulf state waters are finalized.
The Commission will make a final decision on this season at the April Commission meeting in Tallahassee.
While the federal limit for how many pounds of red snapper can be caught has increased, the season length has gotten shorter because of more fishing effort and larger fish, according to federal fishery managers.
After listening to public comment, the Commission chose to go inconsistent based on reports that the upcoming federal stock assessment would likely show red snapper populations are doing better than previously thought and reports from anglers that the fishery is improving and preference is to have a longer season.
The Commission also gave direction to FWC staff to look further into other long-term management options for red snapper.
For more on the proposal that was given to the Commission, visit MyFWC.com/Commission


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Alabama will be able to keep there days by being complaint, the real losers here will be the charter for hire in Florida that hold federal reef permits thanks to amendment 30b. Just talked to Roy Crabtree a few mins ago.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Alabama will be able to keep there days by being complaint, the real losers here will be the charter for hire in Florida that hold federal reef permits thanks to amendment 30b. Just talked to Roy Crabtree a few mins ago.


What did ole Roy have to say?


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> .... Just talked to Roy Crabtree a few mins ago.


And?

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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

Chris Phillips said:


> Lobsterman, They gave him the authority to close federal waters off states who are non-compliant which is really stupid in my opinion. I think these states already know he's going to close their federal waters. That's a ploy to try to get FL to stay compliant saying we'll leave your waters open if you play by my rules regardless what LA does. The problem is he can't do that, I've heard him say a thousand times he's just following the law (Magnuson Stevens Act). When the TAC is reached it's done, doesn't matter where in the Gulf the fish was caught.
> 
> I expect to see him try to enforce some sort of regulations on the states, but that goes well beyond my current knowledge of the laws and I would think it would have to go before the house and congress.


I really hope federal waters does not get closed down....


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Just told you. There going to shorten or close down the federal fishery off of non complaint states. Fed reef permit holders in Florida that chose to keep there permits are screwed. Alabama will remain complaint and we will keep our federal season. I'm in D.C. As we speak been talking fish politics all day.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just told you. There going to shorten or close down the federal fishery off of non complaint states. Fed reef permit holders in Florida that chose to keep there permits are screwed. Alabama will remain complaint and we will keep our federal season. I'm in D.C. As we speak been talking fish politics all day.


Ummmm... for 15 years the writing has been on the wall for reef permit holders... A majority of the Florida permit holders support this movement, and the likes of Gary Jarvis won't get a bit of sympathy from me.... 17 days in June won't make or break you...Especially when you will book those days in June whether there is a snapper season or not....


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Ummmm... for 15 years the writing has been on the wall for reef permit holders... A majority of the Florida permit holders support this movement, and the likes of Gary Jarvis won't get a bit of sympathy from me.... 17 days in June won't make or break you...Especially when you will book those days in June whether there is a snapper season or not....


Preach it sir.

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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Ummmm... for 15 years the writing has been on the wall for reef permit holders... A majority of the Florida permit holders support this movement, and the likes of Gary Jarvis won't get a bit of sympathy from me.... 17 days in June won't make or break you...Especially when you will book those days in June whether there is a snapper season or not....


 
You have a good point. Most tourist will come in with thier stringers of mingos and pogies and be happy as shit about it. They'll book trips regardless.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Well, with a 44 day season in FL waters, I can just take the bait boat out and fill the freezer. I'll bring all the kids in the neighborhood.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing, I believe every word you said, but now Roy is just going to forget all about the TAC that he's lived by for years and reward the states who comply? Seems pretty fishy...


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

BD

how hard would it would be for you to move your permit off of / from your federally permitted charter boat just for the 44 day snapper season in FL state waters and run two trips a day for red snapper in FL state waters, then move it back and fish federal waters for all other species once Florida State water snapper closes down? Just asking, I have no knowledge of the mechanisims or the hoops you would have to jump through to make it happen and still be an executable plan so that you don't lose a federal permit on your boat.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

With respect to rule 30b which apparently keeps federally permitted charter boat owners from fishing in state waters for red snapper when the federal snapper season is closed (under threat of losing their federal permit), there has to be a federal law on the books somewhere, that prevents the federal government from *acting arbitrarily and capriciously in their rule making*, which in this case denies a business owner (federally permitted charter captain) from "making a living" through fishing state waters if the snapper season is open in the state.
Here is the guide used by lawyers suing the government. 
http://federalpracticemanual.org/node/29



*5.1.C. Administrative Procedure Act *

Although some federal statutes that create rights include their own mechanisms for judicial review of agency action affecting those rights, most are silent with respect to judicial review. In the Administrative Procedure Act (APA), Congress expressly granted a private right of action to enforce federal rights against federal agencies./189/ Because 5 U.S.C.§ 702 creates this right of action expressly, there is no need to look for an implied right of action against the federal government. The APA, then, waives the federal government's sovereign immunity over suits "seeking relief other than money damages and stating a claim that an agency or an officer or employee thereof acted or failed to act in an official capacity or under color of legal authority,"/190/ unless another statute "grants consent to suit expressly or impliedly forbids the relief which is sought."/191/

*5.1.C.1. Suit for Judicial Review*

With many exceptions, the APA generally requires federal agencies to act through adjudication or rule making or both. *Typical challenges to agency action contend that the agency misinterpreted its governing statute or made erroneous conclusions of law; that the agency’s rules or findings of fact were arbitrary or capricious; or that the agency used improper procedures in its decision making.* As discussed below, due to the courts’ substantial deference to an agency’s interpretation of its governing statute and to its findings of fact, procedural challenges to an agency’s decision-making process may offer greater prospects for securing relief for your clients./192/ State administrative procedure statutes similarly should not be overlooked as a potentially powerful tool against state actions that adversely affect your clients. However, at least two significant hurdles to judicial review must first be overcome: assertions that agency action is unreviewable and that the challenge was not filed at the appropriate time.

P.S. I am not a lawyer but I am married to one...so this type stuff comes up around the house from time to time.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

What are y'all gonna fish for after the ZERO REEF FISHING BAN takes place? It's a fact and it just happened last meeting in mobile. It will be enforced per state


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## SouthAlabamaSlayer (Oct 13, 2011)

LopeAlong said:


> What are y'all gonna fish for after the ZERO REEF FISHING BAN takes place? It's a fact and it just happened last meeting in mobile. It will be enforced per state


That will be federal waters, not state.


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## Johnms (Nov 29, 2010)

http://m.myfwc.com/news/news-releases/

Official outcome of the meetings


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

Your right so from here on out you are LEGALLY confined to bottom fish in state waters. How long will your reefs last in the box?


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## fish head (Jul 6, 2009)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just told you. There going to shorten or close down the federal fishery off of non complaint states. Fed reef permit holders in Florida that chose to keep there permits are screwed. Alabama will remain complaint and we will keep our federal season. I'm in D.C. As we speak been talking fish politics all day.


Thank you for logging in to give an update.


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## SouthAlabamaSlayer (Oct 13, 2011)

LopeAlong said:


> Your right so from here on out you are LEGALLY confined to bottom fish in state waters. How long will your reefs last in the box?


The whole motive behind non-compliance is to get complete reform. Everyone knew that we would lose bottom fishing in federal waters until it is reformed, so that isn't a big deal to us.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I know when the federal season used to be 6 months and 4 fish. I could still go to live bottom seven miles off Pensacola and catch legal red snapper right up until the last day. It was all in the technique...

In any case this is only one political move out of many moves to come...


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just told you. There going to shorten or close down the federal fishery off of non complaint states. Fed reef permit holders in Florida that chose to keep there permits are screwed. Alabama will remain complaint and we will keep our federal season. I'm in D.C. As we speak been talking fish politics all day.


Tom when you say the "federal fishery" you mean the federal red snapper fishery correct?

The "federal fishery" for all other reef fish would remain open during the federally established seasons for everyone including federally permitted charter boats and private recreational fisherman correct?

I can't see any basis (legal or scientific) for NFS shutting down for example mingo and grouper in federal waters as we are only talking about the SNAPPER season here correct?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Guys the real battle for all of us will be the reautheration of the M/S act in 2014, this will not be my last trip to D.C. This is very important we get some language changed and we have local congressional support. The gulf council really needs to repeal amendment 30b it's such an unfair rule to so many fishing businesses and recreational fisherman that fishes on these boats.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Yes the season will be only shortened or closed for the specific fishery that the state goes non-complaint in


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> The gulf council really needs to repeal amendment 30b it's such an unfair rule to so many fishing businesses and recreational fisherman that fishes on these boats.


Concur.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks Tom.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

LopeAlong said:


> What are y'all gonna fish for after the ZERO REEF FISHING BAN takes place? It's a fact and it just happened last meeting in mobile. It will be enforced per state


What's this all about? Please fill me in.....


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Guys the real battle for all of us will be the reautheration of the M/S act in 2014, this will not be my last trip to D.C. This is very important we get some language changed and we have local congressional support. The gulf council really needs to repeal amendment 30b it's such an unfair rule to so many fishing businesses and recreational fisherman that fishes on these boats.



This is an unconditionally true statement. 

No matter who is in power where, they are bound by Magnuson/Stevens. MS is one of the most poorly thoughtout plans in the history of the federal government. Well-intentioned as it was, it does not work and needs to be scraped and a plan put in place.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

*Fwc*

I Will fish in state waters with my Federally Permitted charter boat when federal waters are closed, accept the violation and challenge the legality of 30b in court.


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## lobsterman (Sep 30, 2007)

Matt Mcleod said:


> I Will fish in state waters with my Federally Permitted charter boat when federal waters are closed, accept the violation and challenge the legality of 30b in court.


 
I don't blame you one iota. All this non sense is unconstitutuional but they just keep pushing forward as fast and as hard as they can.


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## ADRENALINE (May 6, 2008)

phantomcc said:


> What does this mean for tourists (like myself) when I come down like
> to take all my kids on headboats multiple times a season?
> Are the headboats still able to target ARS but in State Waters?


Negative. From what I understand, federally permitted charter vessels will not be able to fish in state waters if that state goes noncompliant. On top of that, if a state does indeed go nc, NMFS will shut down federal "fisheries" as well. Basically either putting all federally permitted charter vessels out of business or force them to break the law. This could get ugly for you guys over there, especially if the feds decide to "punish" noncompliance by shutting down your entire federal fishery (everything). Don't think for one minute that the charter vessels will be able to "transfer" their permits to another vessel and then bring them back as they wish. NMFS is who handles all permitting and they will be smart to that idea if they haven't already confronted it.


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## catfever24 (Dec 26, 2011)

Craptree needs a bullet to the head.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> On top of that, if a state does indeed go nc, NMFS will shut down federal "fisheries" as well.This could get ugly for you guys over there, especially if the feds decide to "punish" noncompliance by shutting down your entire federal fishery (everything).


That will be the threat by the feds....and they may even try and do it...However, my guess is a lot of dirty laundry is going to come out soon enough that we will see the total restructure that should have been in place all along at the federal level...


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

catfever24 said:


> Craptree needs a bullet to the head.


I really hope that you don't mean that, no matter how frustrated you are with the regulations.


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## floorman1 (Jan 10, 2012)

So if you run a charter boat but do not have fed permits yet you will be able to fish state waters 44 days


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

floorman1 said:


> So if you run a charter boat but do not have fed permits yet you will be able to fish state waters 44 days


Thats correct


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

But when those 44 days are over you are still stuck in state waters...


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## MerkDeez (Nov 20, 2011)

catfever24 said:


> Craptree needs a bullet to the head.


What a piece of shit comment. Your probably the type that will take your frustration out on a 5 year old and barricade yourself in your bunker.


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## floorman1 (Jan 10, 2012)

Craptree needs a bullet to the head

Dude this is a public forum??


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

If this chart doesn't make you want to tear down the current system I don't know what will. According to this we are basically in the beginning stages of rebuilding the red snapper stock!


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> Negative. From what I understand, federally permitted charter vessels will not be able to fish in state waters if that state goes noncompliant. On top of that, if a state does indeed go nc, NMFS will shut down federal "fisheries" as well. Basically either putting all federally permitted charter vessels out of business or force them to break the law. This could get ugly for you guys over there, especially if the feds decide to "punish" noncompliance by shutting down your entire federal fishery (everything). Don't think for one minute that the charter vessels will be able to "transfer" their permits to another vessel and then bring them back as they wish. NMFS is who handles all permitting and they will be smart to that idea if they haven't already confronted it.



Good.

That's what needs to happen. The States need to bow up and call the feds' bluff and then when they do try to come down heavy handed Congressional oversight will win out, NMFS will be restructured, Crabtree removed and even the Gulf Council will have to be overhauled.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

JoeZ said:


> Good.
> 
> That's what needs to happen. The States need to bow up and call the feds' bluff and then when they do try to come down heavy handed Congressional oversight will win out, NMFS will be restructured, Crabtree removed and even the Gulf Council will have to be overhauled.


 
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## ADRENALINE (May 6, 2008)

floorman1 said:


> So if you run a charter boat but do not have fed permits yet you will be able to fish state waters 44 days


From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02


Is this a serious post from a charter boat captain?


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> This could get ugly for you guys over there, especially if the feds decide to "punish" noncompliance by shutting down your entire federal fishery (everything).



Why is it "you guys" over there? 

Alabama guys aren't going to be safe. Federal waters are federal waters and y'all only have a tiny little strip of it. You and Mississippi are only about 70 miles wide at the Gulf and La's new claim to state waters cuts into that even more. 

If the charter boat guys are separated from the recreational guys and then the charter guys separate themselves even further state by state, they'll get what they want: A fractured front. 

You cannot beat the Big Greens and NGOs that run this thing with a fractured piece of a small army.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02


Huh?


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Is this a serious post from a charter boat captain?


No shit.

There are strict guidelines to charter a boat, Ed. Doesn't matter what waters you run, a 6 pack is the same. Do you really think they're NOT going to milk that cash cow?


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02


You can't be serious ... if you are, wow.

Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

John B. said:


> You can't be serious ... if you are, wow.
> 
> Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


This just got VERY interesting...:thumbup:


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> This just got VERY interesting...:thumbup:


Mind = blown.

Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> if a state does indeed go nc, NMFS will shut down federal "fisheries" as well. Basically either putting all federally permitted charter vessels out of business or force them to break the law. This could get ugly for you guys over there, especially if the feds decide to "punish" noncompliance by shutting down your entire federal fishery (everything).


I have to call bs on the above statement. On what grounds would NFS have to shutdown the entire federal fishery? Because they are mad about snapper and they want to punish people?


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

ADRENALINE said:


> From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02



ummm.....to carry passengers for hire of any type in florida you have to have a capt license. To charter fish in state waters in Fl you have to purchase a license from Florida as well as a business license in addition to your Capt license. Not sure where you came up with all that.....


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## Whitie9688 (Sep 28, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02


Before long out there it will look like JAWS out there with the snapper biting your toes off at the beach!

And yes. My post makes as much since as yours.

http://youtu.be/wKjxFJfcrcA


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Whitie9688 said:


> snapper biting your toes off at the beach



I would support this.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

catfever24 said:


> Craptree needs a bullet to the head.


You must understand how things work Crabtree is not the problem, they can replace him tomorrow and it will be exactly the same. The problem is with M/S act and current fish management. They are bound by laws which take and act of congress to change, that's why I'm here to learn and to try to educate policy makers that really don't have a clue of the impacd of there actions.


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

WTF is Adrenaline talking about. Get serious or quit posting stupid crap...


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Captain Mickey O'Reilly said:


> WTF is Adrenaline talking about. Get serious or quit posting stupid crap...


I'm pretty sure that guy was serious....Give him a little more time to google it..... :no:


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

I understand how things work and I agree we need major changes to the magnusons. Although Roy takes some of this stuff personal and his koolaid makes me want to puke...


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

:watching:


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## ADRENALINE (May 6, 2008)

WOW. Calm down. TO CLARIFY. It will not take long for people to start exploiting this and filling the shoes of all permitted vessels that are not able to fish in state waters. This will create a HUGE vacuum in a major tourist industry. Someone WILL take advantage of this situation. To put it simple, "show up at my vessel with your license, pay me, and if we get stopped you are my cousin". Happens WAY to much now.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> WOW. Calm down. TO CLARIFY. It will not take long for people to start exploiting this and filling the shoes of all permitted vessels that are not able to fish in state waters. This will create a HUGE vacuum in a major tourist industry. Someone WILL take advantage of this situation. To put it simple, "show up at my vessel with your license, pay me, and if we get stopped you are my cousin". Happens WAY to much now.


I can see this happening, "Be careful what you ask for, ya just might get it"


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## Murphy's Law (Sep 27, 2007)

Whitie9688 said:


> Before long out there it will look like JAWS out there with the snapper biting your toes off at the beach!
> 
> And yes. My post makes as much since as yours.
> 
> http://youtu.be/wKjxFJfcrcA


Priceless lol !!!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forum Runner


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

There are enough accredited inshore guides in Florida to handle the influx of business and those type of operations you reference usually don't last, certainly don't draw repeat customers and will have a hard time gaining traction - as all new charter businesses do.


There will be bumps, there will be struggles but if you hope to have a future in this business you have to fight for what's right and that might require taking a hit in the short term.

It will be ugly.


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> WOW. Calm down. TO CLARIFY. It will not take long for people to start exploiting this and filling the shoes of all permitted vessels that are not able to fish in state waters. This will create a HUGE vacuum in a major tourist industry. Someone WILL take advantage of this situation. To put it simple, "show up at my vessel with your license, pay me, and if we get stopped you are my cousin". Happens WAY to much now.


I don't think so.... the writing has been on the wall for years, Idk about Alabama, but here in Pensacola you can count the number of federally permitted vessels on 2 hands. Under the current system of regulations, these guys are doomed no matter what. The next year or two for these boats are going to suck. But it's either deal with it now, or deal with not being able to keep a damn thing in the years to come.

Sent from my LG G2X using Forum Runner


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## catfever24 (Dec 26, 2011)

MerkDeez said:


> What a piece of shit comment. Your probably the type that will take your frustration out on a 5 year old and barricade yourself in your bunker.


Damn bro, chill out. It was just an expression. So I express my frustration with the NMFS a little different than you. You are the one who brought up the sick demented mind of somebody who would do that to a young innocent child. I`m glad we are getting at least 44 days to fish. And I do understand that this is only the beginning of the fight for our rights to fish. I wasn`t born yesterday.


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Goodness, this has all gone south quickly. I am going to go read the Tao Te Ching and meditate for a while. Find my center and harness my chi.


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## ADRENALINE (May 6, 2008)

aroundthehorn said:


> Goodness, this has all gone south quickly. I am going to go read the Tao Te Ching and meditate for a while. Find my center and harness my chi.


Your telling me! Keyboard cowboys that type faster than they think.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> Your telling me! Keyboard cowboys that type faster than they think.



Oh geez.


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## MerkDeez (Nov 20, 2011)

ADRENALINE said:


> Your telling me! Keyboard cowboys that type faster than they think.


Should we re-cap your post from a few pages back?


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## Chet88 (Feb 20, 2008)

Alabama needs to grow a set and go non compliant as well. Then extend their state waters to 9 miles.


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## Chris V (Oct 18, 2007)

Chet88 said:


> Alabama needs to grow a set and go non compliant as well. Then extend their state waters to 9 miles.


That's what upsets me the most about Alabama. The Feds say jump, Montgomery asks "how high?"


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## biggamefishr (Oct 26, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> Your telling me! Keyboard cowboys that type faster than they think.


^ This.... coming from the guy that said this? v



ADRENALINE said:


> From what I understand, yes. I have no idea how the state plans on handling this?????????? This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc. This could be an absolute mess. 44 days with every boat known to man fishing inside nine miles doesn't sound like a good thing to me. Think of the beginning of the movie JAWS when they're all going out to try to catch her. That's the visualization I get. My .02


You obviously don't understand what a merchant mariner credential is or how 6pack boats operate. Btw the uscg and nmfs are two completely different and unrelated entities. You still need a mmc to operate within state waters, if your boat carries 6 or less people it doesn't need a coast guard inspection to operate in state or federal waters. Anymore questions feel free to give me a call and I'll help you through all of this misinformation you have in your head. I wouldn't want your hands working faster than your brain again!


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## ADRENALINE (May 6, 2008)

JoeZ said:


> Oh geez.


Didn't start it. I got BLASTED for ZERO reason. Happens WAAAAYYYY too much on this site = keyboard cowboys. You guys have fun.:table:


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

As a humble spearfisherman, I have just 2 cents

Penny #1:
A sincere "Thank You" to all of those who have done the leg work to get us here. 

Penny #2:
For all of those with the "what ifs," I'm sure we could all "what if" the hell out of the possibilities. Wouldn't it better serve "all of us" to take this momentum and move toward a common goal?


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## jjam (Dec 9, 2007)

Hallelujah! 

Look forward to that bus ride!

Thanks Hot Spots & Outcast :thumbup:

Jimmy


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> Didn't start it. I got BLASTED for ZERO reason.


You keep telling yourself that. Or reread your statement. 

I didn't cowboy up. I stated facts.


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## ADRENALINE (May 6, 2008)

biggamefishr said:


> ^ This.... coming from the guy that said this? v
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously don't understand what a merchant mariner credential is or how 6pack boats operate. Btw the uscg and nmfs are two completely different and unrelated entities. You still need a mmc to operate within state waters, if your boat carries 6 or less people it doesn't need a coast guard inspection to operate in state or federal waters. Anymore questions feel free to give me a call and I'll help you through all of this misinformation you have in your head. I wouldn't want your hands working faster than your brain again!


Please reference the two websites listed below. I AM in this business guys, I own four charter vessels and employ 4 100ton captains and hold an OUPV myself. Sorry if you jumped to conclusions or took what I said out of context. Have fun, I'm out. Bash away


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## biggamefishr (Oct 26, 2007)

I also hold a uscg masters license and am in the "business"....that's probably why I found your post that I quoted above so absurd. So you're fully aware that when you said "This would mean anyone with any type boat can carry passengers for hire??? No coast guard inspections, no captains license, no mandatory drug testing, people filling there boat to over max capacity, etc." That you knowingly were full of shit ?


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> Please reference the two websites listed below. I AM in this business guys, I own four charter vessels and employ 4 100ton captains and hold an OUPV myself. Sorry if you jumped to conclusions or took what I said out of context. Have fun, I'm out. Bash away


I don't care how many boats you own and how many people you employ....I too hold a 100 ton Masters license, so whats it matter? YOU spoke before you knew what you typed. I'll explain how your backpeddling holds no water here..

YOU typed this-----This would mean anyone with any type boat *CAN* carry passengers for hire???

If what you are now saying is what you meant, you would have typed this---- This would mean anyone with any type boat _*WILL*_ carry passengers for hire???

No bashing from me....just shocked....well not really....


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

ADRENALINE said:


> Please reference the two websites listed below. I AM in this business guys, I own four charter vessels and employ 4 100ton captains and hold an OUPV myself. Sorry if you jumped to conclusions or took what I said out of context. Have fun, I'm out. Bash away




And you don't know what out of context means - or how to use it. 

Nothing was taken out of context, you simply type too fast for your brain. It happens.


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## PoolBoy074 (May 2, 2012)

ADRENALINE said:


> Please reference the two websites listed below. I AM in this business guys, I own four charter vessels and employ 4 100ton captains and hold an OUPV myself. Sorry if you jumped to conclusions or took what I said out of context. Have fun, I'm out. Bash away


wasnt u just on with that "poser" Gary Finch on his show agreeing with him how we need all this regulation and seasons on ars????? just curious, thats all bro :thumbsup:


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

dang :blink:



thanks yall for gettin something going.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

nextstep said:


> dang :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> thanks yall for gettin something going.


Dang, where have you been asleep.LOL!!!!


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

thanks to ya lajess

did your faxin include the paper roll trick? tape like six sheets together, tape the first one to the last one so you have a tube for the fax machine so it runs on a loop. fax em till they run out of paper.
thanks for all you did. stay pissed!


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## cape horn 24 (Sep 29, 2007)

Do I have this correct? as to some of the info posted todate

Al/Ms go compliant due to 3 mile state waters, Fl/La/Tx go none compliant because of 9 mile limit. Roy shut down snapper fishing in Fed waters for those going NC. 

So Al/Ms would get to fish snapper in fed. waters that touch state waters, as mentioned earlier about 70+/- miles out as far as we choose to go, as long as we come back to our state waters ? Y/N.

Come back in fed waters touching Fl/Tx/La would be breaking the law ?

I do know this is not carved in stone yet.


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

cape horn 24 said:


> Do I have this correct? as to some of the info posted todate
> 
> Al/Ms go compliant due to 3 mile state waters, Fl/La/Tx go none compliant because of 9 mile limit. Roy shut down snapper fishing in Fed waters for those going NC.
> 
> ...


Pretty much.


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

SaltAddict said:


> Penny #2:
> For all of those with the "what ifs," I'm sure we could all "what if" the hell out of the possibilities. *Wouldn't it better serve "all of us" to take this momentum and move toward a common goal?*


:thumbsup: 

We are much much stronger as a group. There seems to be a lot of "I'll appease the beast and hope he eats me last" kind of mentality from some. Of course that's easy for me to say I'm just fishing for fun, they are doing it for a living. :shutup:


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Believe some orange beach captains that post here are members of the charter fishermans association (cfa). The cfa is pushing for charter separation from recreational fisherman and their own quota like commercial fisherman have.

In any case below testimony is the president of the cfa Mr. Jennings and two other cfa captains before the Texas parks and wildlife commission throwing recreational fisherman under the bus recently so to speak...
Guess we can expect the same around here from orange beach cfa affiliated captains if Florida season goes 44 days?
----
COMMISSIONER FRIEDKIN: All right. Michael Jennings, please. 
MR. MICHAEL JENNINGS: Hello. My name is Michael Jennings. I own -- I'm from Freeport, Texas, and I own and operate Jennings Outdoors. We're a hunting and fishing outfitter based out of the Freeport/Lake Jackson area. And the first I've ever got to speak in front of y'all and I would like to say I appreciate the opportunity and I think it's a little unfair that I had to follow those young people this morning talking about the success of the youth program. That was kind of a setup there, but if those guys don't make you -- don't give you a little bit of inspiration in their youth program with the state, nothing will fire you up on it. 
I wanted to talk to you about an incident, an issue that we have on the coast and it involves the -- our Red snapper fishery, which is a federally managed species that the State of Texas has a year-round season on. And it's not -- I'm not here to talk about whether it should or shouldn't be open. I think that's a little above my pay grade and it's more of a political issue than anything else. But what we do have down there is being that it's a federal managed species and the access to that fishery is real limited within our nine miles, is that once it stayed open beyond the federal seasons, we started to see a number of fish, quite a large number fish that were being caught in federal waters and brought back into state waters. As long as they hit the dock and they were within the state limits, nothing was said. 
Now there's been some issues where we have raised concern with the local game wardens and they have began to pay more and more attention to these issues and we have discovered that we've got a problem with it and that is that there's no fee schedule or ability for our law enforcements to file on the justice precinct level. And I don't know if that is a situation where the Commission could simply amend the Parks and Wildlife Code to add a fee schedule where they could file at the justice precinct level or if this is a legislative issue. 
It's just something that I was wanting to bring today to light in front of the Commission that it's becoming a growing problem down there and ask that the Commission just if you would jut look into it for us. If there's something you could help to move that along or bring light to the legislature, any legislators on this issue and if you would speak with the local law enforcement officers in the field, I think you would find that it's become a serious -- I don't know what -- thorn in their side I guess might be the word that I would use because they feel like their hands are -- I talk to them quite a bit telling them, you know, get these guys. Here there are, watching them come in bringing these fish out of federal waters and they just don't have the ability to do much with it, other than turn it over to the federal level through our, you know, JEA agreement and then watch these cases just kind of go by wayside because it was either too much money or too much time on the federal end to pursue such a small case. 
To our local fishermen, it's a large case. And to our game wardens, it seems to be a growing concern because of their inability to file these cases at the state level. And I appreciate y'alls time and thank you. 
COMMISSIONER FRIEDKIN: Commissioner Duggins. 
COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: Mr. Jennings, may I suggest that you chat with Colonel Hunter and perhaps set up a meeting with one of his staff to pursue this further? 
MR. MICHAEL JENNINGS: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: I noticed that he was listening with great interest, and he runs a wonderful department. So maybe you could -- 
MR. MICHAEL JENNINGS: Oh, they definitely do. And I, you know -- 
COMMISSIONER DUGGINS: He's standing right -- I mean he's seated right behind you. 
COLONEL HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
COMMISSIONER FRIEDKIN: Thank you very much. Appreciate it. 
And next up, Shane Cantrell, please. Captain Scott Hickman after Shane. 
CAPTAIN SHANE CANTRELL: My name is Captain Shane Cantrell from Galveston, Texas, where I have two federally permitted charter boats down there. I want to speak a little bit on the same issue as Captain Jennings. 
It's becoming a real issue down there. Our game wardens don't have the -- they've got plenty of resources. They've got a great setup down there, but we -- they've got to be able to do something whenever these cases come across. We've got a 365-day Red snapper season and it's great for the fishermen of Texas, the recreational fishermen; but it just gives them an opportunity to go out there and take whatever they want from federal waters. 
And at this point in time, as soon as they reach nine miles and get to the dock, it's free and clear. It's not a great way go. So I would like to amend the Texas Parks & Wildlife Code so our Texas game wardens can get a fee schedule and something that they can do about it instead of just handing it over to the federal level. 
COMMISSIONER FRIEDKIN: Thank you, Shane. Appreciate it. 
COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Excuse me.
COMMISSIONER FRIEDKIN: Commissioner Scott. 
COMMISSIONER SCOTT: One question on that, this issue. We've heard about it before. So as Carter explained it to us one time, when they drag that fish 100 miles offshore and they get back in the 9 miles, then they can say they caught it inside the 9-mile zone. That's what's going on? 
CAPTAIN SHANE CANTRELL: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER SCOTT: How in the world do you -- it would seem to me and I'm not an attorney. Perhaps this is a question for you, Bill, Commissioner Jones. But, you know, legally if you're not out there 10 miles off shore to catch them doing it, how could it ever work that they would be getting a fine that would hold up in a court if... 
CAPTAIN SHANE CANTRELL: If it was filed at the justice precinct level, it would -- 
COMMISSIONER SCOTT: But how do you prove they were -- that's why I'm -- I'm trying to -- I'm trying -- I understand the problem and I'm trying to figure out an answer for it. And so how do we determine and then prove that they were where they weren't supposed to be, I guess is my question. 
CAPTAIN SHANE CANTRELL: There's -- I would say there is a limited number of ports they can come in and out of. Everybody knows the ports, where they were and it's more rampant in other ports. Here in Galveston where I'm at, we have two federal game wardens there, sitting right there at the Galveston Yacht Basin. That's not a huge deal for us. And everybody knows that there's not a huge state water fishery, especially for these big fish. 
When you get down closer to Freeport, Matagorda, Port O'Connor area, it's becoming -- it's happening a lot more. You can sit right outside, right around that 9-mile line. You get a nice day, people are going to be out there, people are going to be breaking the law. You can sit on that line just checking. Say, hey, do you have any snappers on board? We saw you coming in from offshore. And just like that, I think even without all these fee schedules, if they could just enforce it, a few examples could be made and it would cut back on everything a lot. 
MR. SMITH: Commissioner, what we'll do is, we'll have Brandi Reeder, head of our Marine Law Enforcement, provide y'all with an update on this issue and provide a little more background to the Commission and so we'll get y'all a written report. I appreciate everybody bringing this to our attention, so thank y'all. 
COMMISSIONER FRIEDKIN: That would be helpful. Thanks. 
Okay, Scott Hickman.
CAPTAIN SCOTT HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, thank you for hearing us today. My name is Captain Scott Hickman. I'm a 27-year full-time charter boat captain, federally permitted charter boat captain from Galveston, Texas. I also own a large hunting outfitting business up and down the coast, so we run stuff all over the state of Texas. 
We do have the best game wardens in the whole Gulf Coast. I travel quite a bit. The best equipped game warden force. Following up with Captain Cantrell and Captain Jennings, we've lived this nightmare of State noncompliance in my marina for, you know, I guess whenever y'all decided to go noncompliant with federal regulations. I run about 150 days a year out of Galveston Yacht Basin. 
We're right now looking at a little over a 40-day Red snapper season, federal season. Under the federal regulations, if I'm to put a state water Red snapper on my boat, my federal permits if I'm caught will be non-renewed the next year. I'm out of business. So people come from Dallas -- my hunting customers -- Houston, San Antonio, all over the state to go Red snapper fishing or let's just say Amberjack fishing and King mackerel fishing, they come back to the dock and we've been throwing back Red snappers all day long in federal waters..... Ran out of space you get the picture....


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## MrFish (Aug 21, 2009)

> There seems to be a lot of "I'll appease the beast and hope he eats me last" kind of mentality from some.


I was thinking the same thing. The way the season was going down every year, what did some of these guys think? That all of sudden they would get rid of their junk science and see the light??


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

No some of them were hoping and still hope to get their own charter allocation of snapper just like commercial fisherman do. With it getting worse and worse they hoped to keep making a case for catch shares in the charter fleet.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

"I love the smell of Florida non-compliance with the federal snapper season in the morning!...It smells like "victory""


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> "I love the smell of Florida non-compliance with the federal snapper season in the morning!...It smells like "victory""
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sBksHaTQCbU&feature=related


That's awesome!


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Hey Gary Jarvis,


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

I feel like this is the first step in the right direction for recreational anglers since setting in a NMFS meeting 7 or 8 years ago and hearing they were about to take an axe to our snapper season!


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## Lyin Too (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm confused about the Texas charter captains.
Do they want Texas to go compliant so they will have a shorter season?
They can snapper fish all year now and they want to shorten that to 27 or 44 days?
Dont sound like good business planning to me.
If they're worried about their federal reef permits, either talk to the federal politicians about those restrictions or modify what they fish for in state waters when the federal season is closed.
Am I missing something?


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

thanks chris for getting this party started!:thumbup:


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

catfever24 said:


> Craptree needs a bullet to the head.


Like that would solve anything. I've talked to Roy, and he may be part of the problem, but violence solves nothing. You must like the idea that we be searched for weapons at the door to these meetings. BTW, Roy, we've got a few nuts lurking here.... pay no mind.


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## gator7_5 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Alabama will be able to keep there days by being complaint, the real losers here will be the charter for hire in Florida that hold federal reef permits thanks to amendment 30b. Just talked to Roy Crabtree a few mins ago.


That's actually good news. I can fish my deeper reefs south of OB and come in OB pass during fed season and fish shallower in fl state water for their season since I have both licenses.

Still would rather Alabama go noncompliant and fight for 9 miles.


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## deersniper270 (Apr 29, 2009)

This topic is 16 pages deep so to save me from 16 pages of reading let me see if I understand this. Florida extended our season to 44 days instead of 27. But only in state waters? Or federal waters also? With that said how many miles out is state waters?


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

deersniper270 said:


> This topic is 16 pages deep so to save me from 16 pages of reading let me see if I understand this. Florida extended our season to 44 days instead of 27. But only in state waters? Or federal waters also? With that said how many miles out is state waters?


1. It's not finalized and nobody will know anything until April.

2. The plan that people are talking about seems to apply only to state waters, but nobody knows how that will affect federal waters IF the plan is put into place.

3. In FL, state waters extend 9 miles out.

4. Mass hysteria in this thread. 

I think that is all correct, but welcome any corrections.


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## deersniper270 (Apr 29, 2009)

Thank you aroundthehorn


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Most of our opinion is this is just a "shot across the bow" to the Feds. Florida believes that the new stock assessment will show enough fish for the 44 day season. There is going to be a very large amount of fish politics lobbying going on up to the April meeting. You should have seen some of the congressman s and senators faces when we told them that the federally permitted boats would not be able to participate in the fishery, most had no idea. Going to get interesting.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Alabama is introducing a bill to try to get 15 miles, from what I heard from Jo bonner that they want all gulf states on equal playing field when it comes to fisheries. Only problem with that is that it takes an act of congress to achieve this. Lousianna will be fishing there non-complaint season with 3 miles, there's going to be some major federal tickets given out IMO.


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

I guess that the congressmen are getting big payouts from someone to be upset that federally permitted boats are getting hosed...


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Most of our opinion is this is just a "shot across the bow" to the Feds. Florida believes that the new stock assessment will show enough fish for the 44 day season.
> 
> Going to get interesting.


The above statement is far from the truth. 

I was at the FWC meeting and the commissioners are VERY skeptical of the new stock assessment and were very clear that they had "heard this song and dance before" from NMFS.

You do realize that in order for the new stock assessment to increase the federal season to 44 days the TAC would have to basically double or increase by 100%!! Do you really think we have any chance of that? No. The stock assessment will not be a game changer. 

I agree with the last part, it will get interesting!


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Most of our opinion is this is just a "shot across the bow" to the Feds. Florida believes that the new stock assessment will show enough fish for the 44 day season. There is going to be a very large amount of fish politics lobbying going on up to the April meeting. You should have seen some of the congressman s and senators faces when we told them that the federally permitted boats would not be able to participate in the fishery, most had no idea. Going to get interesting.


Who is "our" in the opinion that this is just a shot across the bow to the feds?


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Matt Mcleod said:


> The above statement is far from the truth.
> 
> I was at the FWC meeting and the commissioners are VERY skeptical of the new stock assessment and were very clear that they had "heard this song and dance before" from NMFS.
> 
> ...


You are spot on Matt!


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Captain Mickey O'Reilly said:


> Who is "our" in the opinion that this is just a shot across the bow to the feds?


My guess it is these guys...

http://www.charterfisherman.org/Default.aspx?pageId=1383628

Maybe Tom will respond with a Yay or Nay.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

I just figured that since the state non compliance is mainly for residents of the state that the season would have been set a little more work force friendly, like the L.A 3 day season, why the 44 days? Seems strange dont y'all agree? You guys also know pretty much the whole west coast of Florida will not be able to catch a red snapper this year being that 9 miles is way to shallow places like st marks the big bend south. Just some observations.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Yes I went with the CFA.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Alabama will be able to keep there days by being complaint, the real losers here will be the charter for hire in Florida that hold federal reef permits thanks to amendment 30b. Just talked to Roy Crabtree a few mins ago.


I'm sorry but that's not entirely accurate information.

This is what happened. Crabtree did not actually change the reality of what is going to happen with his emergency rule to adjust federal seasons off particular states based on their compliance. 

What he was trying to do was change people's perception of the situation. He wants people to believe that compliant states will be rewarded by being compliant and non-compliant states will be punished. 

Non-compliant state seasons reduce the overall TAC, thus reducing the season EVERYWHERE! Crabtree is sticking with the 27 day estimate but that number is misleading, with Louisiana's state season taken into consideration the estimate is 17 days. The below text was taken from the “Gulf Council Review and Discussion Report” I got at the Orlando FWC meeting. This shows clearly how Louisiana’s state season will DIRECTLY reduce the federal season for the remaining compliant states of Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida (at the time compliant) by 10 days or almost 40%!!

The other picture I have attached should make the situation we are in VERY clear to everyone! It is the projected federal season lengths for the next 5 years. It is from the same document as the text. Column #1 will be reality, column #2 and #3 are if we change the 51% to 49% (commercial to recreational) allocation percentages and the commercial guys are certainly not going to lay down and watch that happen without a fight!
On a side note I wouldn’t get too excited about the fine print at the bottom. Though the new stock assessment is suppose to be positive it will not be a game changer in my opinion.


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Yes I went with the CFA.


It figures. CFA is not worried about recreational fishermen or small charter fishing guys, period...


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## feelin' wright (Oct 7, 2007)

Captain Mickey O'Reilly said:


> It figures. CFA is not worried about recreational fishermen or small charter fishing guys, period...


x 2. CFA could care less about the recreational quota. They are worried for their members so they are now crying to the senators because they cannot catch red snapper this year. Most of these same assholes were for the SOS plan, so they can go pound sand. 

Sell you federal permit if you do not like it. You can't switch sides when the tables are starting to be turned on the feds. 

I am glad the state stepped up against the feds. But I do agree with the 3 day weeks instead of a straight 44 days.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

In any case the former Save Our Sector group now CFA is a "player" in the political process. 

My hope is that CFA is working in Washington to have rule 30b abolished or changed that could make a difference for the federally permitted charter operators.

My last hope (and it is a long shot) is that somehow the activities of the CFA coupled with non-compliant state actions will somehow put a squeeze on the National Fisheries Service to scrap the current model and make them go back to the drawing board with federally permitted charter operators, state water charter operators, and private recreational anglers somehow ALL benefiting in terms of longer fishing seasons.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Matt,

That is the "John Blaze" dope gouge out of the fwc meeting. Good on you posting it.


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## phantomcc (May 25, 2010)

Lyin Too said:


> I'm confused about the Texas charter captains.
> Do they want Texas to go compliant so they will have a shorter season?
> They can snapper fish all year now and they want to shorten that to 27 or 44 days?
> Dont sound like good business planning to me.
> ...


I live in Texas, but I LOVE fishing in Florida.
With that said I have been on many a boat in Galveston and Corpus.
Every time the boats have to go minimum 40 or 50 miles out to hit
good reefs holding ARS, trigger, mingos and the other usual suspects.
I am not so convinced that State Waters hold a good population of ARS. This is why the Texas Captains are upset.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

phantomcc said:


> I live in Texas, but I LOVE fishing in Florida.
> With that said I have been on many a boat in Galveston and Corpus.
> Every time the boats have to go minimum 40 or 50 miles out to hit
> good reefs holding ARS, trigger, mingos and the other usual suspects.
> I am not so convinced that State Waters hold a good population of ARS. This is why the Texas Captains are upset.


There is some more to it than that - encourage you to read here. 

http://www.charterfisherman.org/Default.aspx?pageId=1217831&mode=PostView&bmi=1060512


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## Lyin Too (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm by far no expert but it looks to me like the feds are hanging their hats on stock assesments that tell them there is a shortage of snapper in the gulf. Ive not fished the entire gulf but in the northern gulf from east La to W Fla out to 600' deep we dont have a shortage of snapper. Does anyone not agree with that?


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## marmidor (Mar 15, 2008)

Lyin Too said:


> I'm by far no expert but it looks to me like the feds are hanging their hats on stock assesments that tell them there is a shortage of snapper in the gulf. Ive not fished the entire gulf but in the northern gulf from east La to W Fla out to 600' deep we dont have a shortage of snapper. Does anyone not agree with that?


I think everyone can agree with that!


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## Harbison (Apr 18, 2012)

It's about time that the FWC looks out for the people of Florida rather than follow the money trail. Look for Alabama & Mississippi to follow. Talk about a slap in the face to Crabtree's Gulf Council. It's about time:
*FWC to NMFS- More snapper = More days. 44 to be exact.*

The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission meeting in Orlando yesterday produced some interesting results. Regarding red snapper in state waters, the FWC expressed their concerns which mirrored those of other states over the true health and picture of the red snapper stock in the Gulf of Mexico. The FWC took a seriously unexpected step in declaring that state waters will be open for 44 days for red snapper starting June 1 this year. Their logic was simple: Last year, we had a 40 day season; red snapper are unanimously agreed to be more abundant this year; therefore, we should have a LONGER season than last year.

This decision reflects the FWC's total frustration with the federal management of our red snapper stocks. The decision has grave impacts on federally permitted charter fishermen. Under the current laws, which were dreamed up and put in place by the National Marine Fisheries Service, a federally permitted charter boat operator may not fish in state waters if federal waters are close. This incredibly arrogant control of state waters by a federal appointed official appeared to be the straw that broke the camel's back with the FWC. The ball is now in NMFS' court. To say NMFS is embarrassed is an understatement. Congress will be appalled, once again. Perhaps a trip to the woodshed would affect the direction of future federal management actions.

The Fishing Rights Alliance thinks that these federal permit holders may have grounds for a class action lawsuit against National Marine Fisheries Service. In all likelihood, if Louisiana and Florida do not change their state water openings, the National Marine Fisheries Service will not even open red snapper to recreational anglers in Gulf federal waters in 2013. That would restrict federal permit holders to no red snapper fishing whatsoever. That is both a travesty and an outrage. The FRA will attempt to organize those who are interested into a focus group to explore with legal counsel what options are available for relief. This in no way should imply that there is any legal remedy at this point. The affected parties' legal remedies will only be discussed and explored with attorneys. Interested, affected parties should email [EMAIL="[email protected]"][email protected][/EMAIL] with your contact information. The anglers unable to fish in federal waters, whether from a professional captain's boat or one's own boat, are also affected. Stay tuned for information regarding our remedies.

This decision could, for the short term, hurt most of Florida. It must be remembered that South of the Florida Panhandle there is simply NO red snapper in state waters. However, the long term possibilities are tremendous. The days of NOAA LAW, the days of EDF & Pew influence, and the days of Roy Crabtree's "We are giving the recreational fisherman too many days to fish for ARS" are coming to an end. The voice of the American Peoples have been, are, and will continue to be heard. 
Bob Harbison


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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Yes I went with the CFA.


 
The same CFA that's been pushing catch shares for years?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

bigrick said:


> The same CFA that's been pushing catch shares for years?


A fishing license is a catch share. You buy a saltwater license you get 44 days at 2 per person, means you get 88 red snapper, that is a catch share. Yes we are looking into ALL means for us to have a sustainable year around season. I would love to take the fish that I catch every year in such a short time and have the ability to spread that out through out the whole year. Last year the Fairwater caught real close to 900 red snapper in 44 days. I would love to take a some of these fish that I catch every year anyway and be able to spread it out, so I can start having constant catches again instead of peaks and valleys we have now, end the derby fishery, end fishing in weather that is unsafe. They could let me fish 450 snapper and I could double the people I fish in one year.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> A fishing license is a catch share. You buy a saltwater license you get 44 days at 2 per person, means you get 88 red snapper, that is a catch share. Yes we are looking into ALL means for us to have a sustainable year around season. I would love to take the fish that I catch every year in such a short time and have the ability to spread that out through out the whole year. Last year the Fairwater caught real close to 900 red snapper in 44 days. I would love to take a some of these fish that I catch every year anyway and be able to spread it out, so I can start having constant catches again instead of peaks and valleys we have now, end the derby fishery, end fishing in weather that is unsafe. They could let me fish 450 snapper and I could double the people I fish in one year.


And if that means taking from the recreational TAC so that you can do that so be it, right? As long as it's good for your business that's all that matters who cares about everyone else.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> A fishing license is a catch share. You buy a saltwater license you get 44 days at 2 per person, means you get 88 red snapper, that is a catch share. Yes we are looking into ALL means for us to have a sustainable year around season. I would love to take the fish that I catch every year in such a short time and have the ability to spread that out through out the whole year. Last year the Fairwater caught real close to 900 red snapper in 44 days. I would love to take a some of these fish that I catch every year anyway and be able to spread it out, so I can start having constant catches again instead of peaks and valleys we have now, end the derby fishery, end fishing in weather that is unsafe. They could let me fish 450 snapper and I could double the people I fish in one year.


Those are recreational anglers you are taking fishing?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Those are recreational anglers you are taking fishing?


You know they are. The very same ones that sometimes cant get to the coast for a 27 or 44 day season.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> You know they are. The very same ones that sometimes cant get to the coast for a 27 or 44 day season.


Would you support a tag system of some sort so these recreational anglers you take can stop by a tackle shop and be issued tags before a trip? That way they can choose WHO they want to fish with instead of going with whoever has the CATCH SHARES?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

sniperpeeps said:


> And if that means taking from the recreational TAC so that you can do that so be it, right? As long as it's good for your business that's all that matters who cares about everyone else.


Im taking from the TAC right now and have been for 33 years. Yes Im in business for profit. Guess what there are people that enjoy fishing on charterboats. Having a flexible season is good for everyone involved. How is having a 44 day, 7 weekend red snapper fishing season good for anyone. Did any of you remember last years season with about 35 rough 3 to 5 foot sea days? A tag season would be way better than a derby for any working class fisherman, where you could pick your days.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Would you support a tag system of some sort so these recreational anglers you take can stop by a tackle shop and be issued tags before a trip? That way they can choose WHO they want to fish with instead of going with whoever has the CATCH SHARES?



YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets do this.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

We have been talking, just talking about a redeemable, tag system, example you get 2 or 4 tags at a time per person. You catch your fish, you then fill out the tag and what information they want on it. You turn it in and get more tags. Then they the (feds or state) knows in almost real time when the fish are caught and by who. ==== we dont over fish. We are accountable. Its not rocket science.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets do this.


I'd like to hear all options on the table, but under the right circumstances this may be one if the better ideas ive heard people talk about...


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Im taking from the TAC right now and have been for 33 years. Yes Im in business for profit. Guess what there are people that enjoy fishing on charterboats. Having a flexible season is good for everyone involved. How is having a 44 day, 7 weekend red snapper fishing season good for anyone. Did any of you remember last years season with about 35 rough 3 to 5 foot sea days? A tag season would be way better than a derby for any working class fisherman, where you could pick your days.


I'm all for a tag system just not for a system where a select few (IE the pilot program you so strongly supported last year) get to have a year round season and allocation of snapper while everyone else is restricted to the 44 day season.


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## bigrick (Sep 29, 2010)

I pay under $15 for a fishing license. On my boat we brought home around 35-40 fish last year in the 40 days season. So that's under 40 cents a fish. I can assure you if there is a tag program the tags won't be any where close to 40 cents.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

I'd like to hear estimates of how fast the "tag season" would expire due to head boats fishing 7 days a week and private guys who work 5 days a week only fishing on Saturdays? Gotta be more talk about it before I'm convinced. I'm not gonna lie Tom, anything you support I am a little suspicious of, nothing personal, hope you don't take it that way....


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> I'd like to hear all options on the table, but under the right circumstances this may be one if the better ideas ive heard people talk about...



The last Gulf Council meeting was the very best one I have ever been too in 20 years, I stayed for 3 days. Real Ideas were hitting the table, the fishermen are finally coming together. As boring as it all is right now is the most exciting time to be around fish management, because things are changing. Im just going to make sure i'm around the right places to put my 2 cents in.

Look you can forget getting any more quota from the commercial side or anything if we are not accountable, its the first step, we have to get there. whether its all together or separated the CFH side really dont care but we have to stop overfishing our TAC and get accountable. Thats really the only reason for Sector separation in the first place.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> I'd like to hear estimates of how fast the "tag season" would expire due to head boats fishing 7 days a week and private guys who work 5 days a week only fishing on Saturdays? Gotta be more talk about it before I'm convinced. I'm not gonna lie Tom, anything you support I am a little suspicious of, nothing personal, hope you don't take it that way....



LOL I don't take anything personal, If I did I could never post on here.

I am sick and tired of the FEDs telling me/us that we did this, we did that. Im like really can you really prove that? No they can not. If we had a tag system the universe would be defined. We would know whos fishing, what there catching, and how big the fish are. Hey quit worrying about days, If we proved that we tagged out in a week they would be forced to see that the gulf holds way more fish than they thought and all there models and ways of thinking are junk and have been junk. 

I just want to see proof thats all, its time to do this and push these ideas.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

sniperpeeps said:


> I'm all for a tag system just not for a system where a select few (IE the pilot program you so strongly supported last year) get to have a year round season and allocation of snapper while everyone else is restricted to the 44 day season.


This is the number one reason you have to be involved. YOU not some organization you pay $25 bucks to be in, YOU. YOU have a voice, its all about ideas, the true recreational fisherman has really lagged behind the ball on all of the management ideals. You say we all need to come together, you say that the CFH only thinks about themselves, well its time to do this.

The CCA is holding you back on any kind of tag system because they say its a catch share, I will say it again, Your license is a catch share, just for a derby.


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> The last Gulf Council meeting was the very best one I have ever been too in 20 years, I stayed for 3 days. Real Ideas were hitting the table, the fishermen are finally coming together. As boring as it all is right now is the most exciting time to be around fish management, because things are changing. Im just going to make sure i'm around the right places to put my 2 cents in.
> 
> Look you can forget getting any more quota from the commercial side or anything if we are not accountable, its the first step, we have to get there. whether its all together or separated the CFH side really dont care but we have to stop overfishing our TAC and get accountable. Thats really the only reason for Sector separation in the first place.


Overfishing our TAC?!? Get hour head out of Roy's ass and get real. The commercial sectors bycatcatch is unreal, and our overfishing everything is a bunch of made up bs...


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Captain Mickey O'Reilly said:


> Overfishing our TAC?!? Get hour head out of Roy's ass and get real. The commercial sectors bycatcatch is unreal, and our overfishing everything is a bunch of made up bs...


You make my point easy to make. Im sure the commercial bycatch is bad, but ever since they went to 13 inch limit its a whole lot better.

Im with ya on the bull shit my point exactly, time to prove it. Even with full state control under the current system we the fisherman can not prove anything with the status quo system. 

Its time to be able to prove what we catch! Im tired of them telling me what we are catching via phone surveys. Its total bullshit.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> You make my point easy to make. Im sure the commercial bycatch is bad, but ever since they went to 13 inch limit its a whole lot better.
> 
> Im with ya on the bull shit my point exactly, time to prove it. Even with full state control under the current system we the fisherman can not prove anything with the status quo system.
> 
> Its time to be able to prove what we catch! Im tired of them telling me what we are catching via phone surveys. Its total bullshit.


just got a 'For-Hire Telephone survey" in the mail today....


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> You make my point easy to make. Im sure the commercial bycatch is bad, but ever since they went to 13 inch limit its a whole lot better.
> 
> Im with ya on the bull shit my point exactly, time to prove it. Even with full state control under the current system we the fisherman can not prove anything with the status quo system.
> 
> Its time to be able to prove what we catch! Im tired of them telling me what we are catching via phone surveys. Its total bullshit.


Ok that sounds fair...


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Look guys these are real ideas that the council will actually listen to, if you have anything to add lets talk it out. It's ok to disagree, if you do please keep it civil and explain why. The fact is that as long as we are all fighting amongs ourselves the longer it's going to be before we change anything. The thing that hurts the recreational fisherman the most is having 5 different organizations with totally different ideas fighting amongs themselves. Sometimes I feel it's all done on purpose to keep all the confusion because there's people making some big money in some of these groups. As long as there is confusion nothing gets done and they keep there fishing lobbie jobs.


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## cape horn 24 (Sep 29, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Look guys these are real ideas that the council will actually listen to, if you have anything to add lets talk it out. It's ok to disagree, if you do please keep it civil and explain why. The fact is that as long as we are all fighting amongs ourselves the longer it's going to be before we change anything. The thing that hurts the recreational fisherman the most is having 5 different organizations with totally different ideas fighting amongs themselves. Sometimes I feel it's all done on purpose to keep all the confusion because there's people making some big money in some of these groups. As long as there is confusion nothing gets done and they keep there fishing lobbie jobs.


While I don't always agree with your post this one, :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Just for giggles, let me throw something out there. 

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago, commercial interests in natural resources (live natural resources) all but eliminated those resources. Bison, deer, elk and others were pushed to near extinction for one reason and one reason only - a dollar. 

Steps were taken to stop the decimation and help bring those stocks back to a healthy level. Commercial harvest of these resources was halted. Stocks were protected. 

If the almighty red snapper is in such dire straits, why does the federal government allow the commercial exploitation of a natural resource? 

They don't with wild deer. They don't with wild bison, elk, etc. 

Why fish?

There's only one answer. The dollar.

If the feds truly were worried about a simple fish, they would cut out the commercial sector first. 

Odd isn't it, that a natural resource and the management of that resource are put under the Department of Commerce?

Hmmmm.


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## Harbison (Apr 18, 2012)

*The shares/separation group*

:cursing: 
"As long as it's good for your business that's all that matters who cares about everyone else"
Obviously the CFA's push for shares/separation is very self centered. 
To consider, _"A fishing license is a catch share" _is a new concept for EDF's CFA. _._Can't help but wonder what the EDF, Pew group will come up with next. :hang:


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## k-p (Oct 7, 2009)

JoeZ, you're absolutely correct. Market duck hunting used to be big business in the US around the turn of the century. However, PACs and lobbyists have diluted the political system currently for any chance of having reasonable political discourse. All we can do now, is to fight fire with fire...that being having a special interest that is in the best interest of the people. Everybody knows what is right, but most stand idle by and watch the special interests take over. I know a lot of folks don't like CCA, but I feel if they can at least tip the scales in our favor, then it's the best chance we have. They're the most fire I believe we have right now in our favor until I hear of something else.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Let me try Joe. Ok Red Snapper is not being over fished and are not endangered, this everyone agrees on. We have ACLs catch limits that have been set by the NMFS. The fish are then basically split 50/50 commercial/rec, this we also can agree on. You know there are people that don't fish that still like to eat red snapper. The commercial side can accurately count all there fish and fish weights and can fish right up to the last pound of there Catch limit except they stop at %90 just to make sure they don't go over. The recreational side has no way of doing this so there is a %25 buffer added to our catch limit so they make sure we dont go over. 'They say' the recreational side still goes over each year so they shorten seasons. 

The only real answer in this equation is to be able to account for every fish the Recreational side catches. how can this be done? A open allotment of 2 per person fish tags that are instantly redeemable when turned in caught could be that answer. When the size is calculated and the numbers added up the season can be cut off in a weeks time. As of now in there survey system it takes over 6 months to calculate. This is where the states come in to help, they will be way better at counting than the Feds. By doing this and not going over, as the TAC keeps going up we will add days instead of days taking away and as this system works the bugs out our %25 buffer will decrease and give us more days.

When you think about a fish management plan you have to account for all users of the resource not just yourself. Remember all of you accusing me of just thinking about the CFH and thats it? Well its the same thing here when you don't give consideration to the american consumer of bought fish.

As far as the government is concerned on this issue the commercial guys are the only good stewards of the resource and the recreational side comes off like a bunch of free for all fisherman ******** wanting to kill/catch them all if they let us. THIS HAS TO CHANGE GENTLEMEN!! We must come up with some accountability measures and the gulf council has to get off there asses and come together and make some damn decisions before its all too late.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Harbison said:


> :cursing:
> "As long as it's good for your business that's all that matters who cares about everyone else"
> Obviously the CFA's push for shares/separation is very self centered.
> To consider, _"A fishing license is a catch share" _is a new concept for EDF's CFA. _._Can't help but wonder what the EDF, Pew group will come up with next. :hang:


how is a fishing license not a catch share? Think about it.

To add to that, I hunted in Kansas this year my license and tag allowed me one deer, thats a harvest share. I hunt in Alabama My kill share there is one buck per day but if my buddy comes down from kentucky and buys a three day license he is entitled to three bucks.

You come down and go red snapper fishing and just buy a 7 day saltwater fishing license that entitles you to 14 red snapper. Thats your catch share!!

I promise you they are counting the fish this way. Might as well prove them with real tags.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

JoeZ said:


> Just for giggles, let me throw something out there.
> 
> Once upon a time, a long, long time ago, commercial interests in natural resources (live natural resources) all but eliminated those resources. Bison, deer, elk and others were pushed to near extinction for one reason and one reason only - a dollar.
> 
> ...



Dead on Joe, it boils down to money


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> how is a fishing license not a catch share? Think about it.


I'll take a swing and say that a saltwater fishing license is more like a federal permit than a catch share. A license does not guarantee a business or a person in your name or under you boat permit a certain annual poundage in snapper such as a catch share or individual fishing quota (ifq) does on the commercial snapper side. I can't sell my license and give someone else the rights to catch the annual poundage of fish that I normally catch like you can an ifq, I can't lease someone else the right to catch fish under my "license" like you can with an ifq.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> I'll take a swing and say that a saltwater fishing license is more like a federal permit than a catch share. A license does not guarantee a business or a person in your name or under you boat permit a certain annual poundage in snapper such as a catch share or individual fishing quota (ifq) does on the commercial snapper side. I can't sell my license and give someone else the rights to catch the annual poundage of fish that I normally catch like you can an ifq, I can't lease someone else the right to catch fish under my "license" like you can with an ifq.


Huh...Seems like someone thought about it.... :thumbsup:


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

fairwaterfishing said:


> when you think about a fish management plan you have to account for all users of the resource not just yourself.


why?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> I'll take a swing and say that a saltwater fishing liscense is more like a federal permit than a catch share. A license does not guarantee a business or a person in your name or under you boat permit a certain annual poundage in snapper such as a catch share or individual fishing quota does on the commercial snapper side.


Mark I have a really bad feeling that a lot if not all of the red snapper are being counted that way.
This last season the CFH fished there ass off and caught there limits on every trip, even with all the bad weather we fished. You know that the effort on the small boat true Recreational was down and I mean really down last year, due to rough seas. Guess what the data they have is exactly the same % data from 2011. 67% Rec 33% CFH sorry I have to call BS on that. There catch data that they use is useless IMO. An estimation based on information from something, its got to be based off of somewhere. Fishing licenses? I think so. Not real catches, there treating your license as a catch share and using some sort of formula off of that.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> why?


Because the resource belongs to everyone in America.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> The only real answer in this equation is to be able to account for every fish the Recreational side catches.


It is so frustrating to hear this over and over again. This is some of the most popular NMFS koolaid that they serve!!

Accounting for catches alone WILL NOT HELP US OUT OF THIS MESS!!

It's very simple, there are two numbers that are used to determine our fishery status:

1. How many fish are there?

2. How many are we catching?

Both numbers are WRONG. So if the only change you make is to get ONE of the numbers right you still have 50% of the equation that is flawed which results in a flawed outcome.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't disagree with you, I was just making a different - devil's advocate if you will - argument. Notes below.



Fairwaterfishing said:


> Let me try Joe. Ok Red Snapper is not being over fished and are not endangered, this everyone agrees on. We have ACLs catch limits that have been set by the NMFS. The fish are then basically split 50/50 commercial/rec, this we also can agree on. Agree, agree, agree.
> 
> You know there are people that don't fish that still like to eat red snapper. I love a Bison ribeye more than any fish in the sea. I go to the store for it. It comes from a farm. I love deer meat but I have to go get my own. You cannot buy it. Wild duck as well.
> 
> ...


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## Renegade (Oct 2, 2007)

Just a side note, something I noticed since licenses were being discussed and I decided to check mine to see when it expires: it actually doesn't say "license". It is evidently a "privilege" that we purchase. Makes me want to puke. Who feels privileged? Thank you state of Florida for allowing me to purchase the privilege to catch fish. :notworthy:


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom,
Quick question on cfa agenda. On the cfa website one of the current stated cfa tenants is that magnuson Stevens act is working and should not be revised, is that the current cfa position and what cfa was telling congressional members and staffs on the recent trip to D.C. Or is that an old CFA position? Reason I ask is that a few pages earlier you mentioned Magnuson Stevens should be altered i assuming that is your opinion and not a CFA position. 

In any case Gary Jarvis petted a lot of people's fur the wrong way and i will say that the new CFA president Jennings is a lot more amiable. However, cfa is still headed by both commercial and charter fisherman and from what I can glean off the website the cfa is still all about sector separation and all that goes with it.

Am I wrong about CFA's intent. I appreciate your candid and open discussion about it.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> how is a fishing license not a catch share? Think about it.
> 
> .


A fishing license is in no way, shape, or form even remotely similar to catch shares/IFQ's in any way at all. 

A catch share/IFQ is a valued traded commodity by which one person or entity can own more of a resource than someone else. Does my fishing license have a market value? Anybody want to buy my fishing license?

I can't "buy" another person's fishing licenses in order to keep twice my limit of fish in a day. 

Catch shares/IFQ's are not the answer, never have been.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Matt Mcleod said:


> It's very simple, there are two numbers that are used to determine our fishery status:
> 
> 1. How many fish are there?
> 
> ...


This fact. True fact.
You cannot argue with this. You can't! You will lose.


It's like this: X+12=112. 

You'd say X = 100. NMFS would tell you it's 50 and force 12 to 6 and still come up with 112.

It's like a Chinese football bat. Fucked up.


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

......:watching:


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Matt Mcleod said:


> It is so frustrating to hear this over and over again. This is some of the most popular NMFS koolaid that they serve!!
> 
> Accounting for catches alone WILL NOT HELP US OUT OF THIS MESS!!
> 
> ...


If we can all agree on an accurate way to count the fish and the real Red Snapper fisherman then we must then work on the stock side. In one year the M/S act is coming up for reauthorization, working on the stock assessment must be a priority!

The department of commerce can shut down your state season they have done it twice before. State non-complaince is not the answer its just a band aid, a band aid that may keep some going for a while but its not a fix to the problem. If the states all go rouge at the same time it can get bad. Thats why Florida just set a 44 day season and started it in June. If they had real balls it would be a 6 month 4 fish season.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> If we can all agree on an accurate way to count the fish and the real Red Snapper fisherman then we must then work on the stock side. In one year the M/S act is coming up for reauthorization, working on the stock assessment must be a priority!
> 
> The department of commerce can shut down your state season they have done it twice before. State non-complaince is not the answer its just a band aid, a band aid that may keep some going for a while but its not a fix to the problem. If the states all go rouge at the same time it can get bad. Thats why Florida just set a 44 day season and started it in June. If they had real balls it would be a 6 month 4 fish season.


Tom, see my previous posted question on CFA's current position on magnuson if you care too. The cfa website currently states magnuson is good as is...


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## Renegade (Oct 2, 2007)

I am sure that they would love to be able to know exactly how many are caught and for everyone to trust that they will come up with an accurate way to assess the stock. Sign me up. NOT!


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Tom,
> Quick question on cfa agenda. On the cfa website one of the current stated cfa tenants is that magnuson Stevens act is working and should not be revised, is that the current cfa position and what cfa was telling congressional members and staffs on the recent trip to D.C. Or is that an old CFA position? Reason I ask is that a few pages earlier you mentioned Magnuson Stevens should be altered i assuming that is your opinion and not a CFA position.
> 
> In any case Gary Jarvis petted a lot of people's fur the wrong way and i will say that the new CFA president Jennings is a lot more amiable. However, cfa is still headed by both commercial and charter fisherman and from what I can glean off the website the cfa is still all about sector separation and all that goes with it.
> ...


Basically its like this, the CFH in the CFA want one thing, flexible management tools, we want a way to be able to fish year around or at least longer than we do now. Thats it in a nut shell, we knock around ideas on how to do this every time we meet. There is no doubt the Magnuson Stevens needs to be amended and I believe most are in favor of this, we talked about it a bunch the last few days. If the true Recreational would come together with some accountability measures that we could go along with then the Sector Separation might not be near as important to us. As it is right now tho we feel that we are on our on trying to get a new fish management plan. I personally feel that we could do this together but thats my opinion. I promise you the CFH is trying, thinking, wishing, wanting, and praying every way possible to be able to run our businesses better and in a more efficient manner. As more and more CFH get in the CFA more diverse ideas will arise, thats what I like about the organization, its a bunch of fishermen thinking out side of the box. You are correct Mike Jennings is one hell of a guy, even if he's from Texas.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Matt Mcleod said:


> A fishing license is in no way, shape, or form even remotely similar to catch shares/IFQ's in any way at all.
> 
> A catch share/IFQ is a valued traded commodity by which one person or entity can own more of a resource than someone else. Does my fishing license have a market value? Anybody want to buy my fishing license?
> 
> ...


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I appreciate your openess about CFA intent. I hope you can understand the reluctance to participate in a federal fish management process that seems to be already stacked against us from high dollar enviro lobby groups to commercial and some CFH captains banded together with a goal of gaining a piece of the recreational allocation. For right now the shelter the state of Florida is poised to provide in the form of a 44 day snapper season, even if only temporary,seems to be the only solace available in the recreational snapper fishing "desert" created by the national fisheries service in their management of the gulf fishery.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Matt Mcleod said:
> 
> 
> > A fishing license is in no way, shape, or form even remotely similar to catch shares/IFQ's in any way at all.
> ...


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> The department of commerce can shut down your state season they have done it twice before.


I heard about this! I challenge NOAA to take control of our state waters and close down our fishing! This would create a tremendous opportunity for us! Not only would the constitutionality of this over reach of federal power be challenged but it would also encourage even more people to join our cause!

The more extreme and radical the federal government gets the more momentum we will gain!!

Crabtree has more sense than to pull that card, he uses it as one of his many scare tactics.


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## Chet88 (Feb 20, 2008)

Matt Mcleod said:


> I heard about this! I challenge NOAA to take control of our state waters and close down our fishing! This would create a tremendous opportunity for us! Not only would the constitutionality of this over reach of federal power be challenged but it would also encourage even more people to join our cause!
> 
> The more extreme and radical the federal government gets the more momentum we will gain!!
> 
> Crabtree has more sense than to pull that card, he uses it as one of his many scare tactics.


I dare them. The house of cards would finally collapse.


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

Matt Mcleod said:


> Fairwaterfishing said:
> 
> 
> > Our fishery is in outstanding shape! *We have a government problem not a fish problem!*
> ...


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## fish head (Jul 6, 2009)

I agree that there needs to be a better system for tracking the number of recreational snapper fishermen and the numbers of fish caught. However, I am not keen in the idea of two redeemable fish tags because it will be a nightmare to deal with. Besides, I was at the Q&A session and I heard Crabtree tell a commercial guy that it was not a feasible option. 

I think that a system similar to the duck stamp program would improve the data. Not everyone who buys a saltwater license will want to catch snapper. Many only fish piers, docks and inshore, while I suspect that NMFS thinks otherwise. I would be willing to buy a $5.00 Red Snapper stamp/endorsement to give a more accurate count of those that may fish for snapper. Second, I think that there should be a survey, such as the federal migratory bird survey, before you are issued the stamp/endorsement. I.E. Did you fish for red snapper? How many did you harvest last season? Etc. An alternate idea would be to develop some kind of smartphone app where private boat owners must report their trip and report their catch. 

Fairwaterfishing is correct that the private recreational sector's largest vulnerability to criticism is the fact that the recreational catch (or lack thereof) is nearly impossible to gauge. Whether the stock assessment data is wrong or not, that is an area that is going to have to be improved.


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

Tell me if I am looking at this wrong. If and I say if the feds go to a fish tag, it would be only around a half a million tags (4000000 lbs/ 8 lbs per fish) If I remember correctly there are over a thousand boats that have a federal reef fish permit. So if they divided them it wouldn't be but around 500 tags per boat with 0 left for the recs. So please tell me how this could possibly work? Who makes the call on who gets what?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

fish head said:


> I agree that there needs to be a better system for tracking the number of recreational snapper fishermen and the numbers of fish caught. However, I am not keen in the idea of two redeemable fish tags because it will be a nightmare to deal with. Besides, I was at the Q&A session and I heard Crabtree tell a commercial guy that it was not a feasible option.
> 
> I think that a system similar to the duck stamp program would improve the data. Not everyone who buys a saltwater license will want to catch snapper. Many only fish piers, docks and inshore, while I suspect that NMFS thinks otherwise. I would be willing to buy a $5.00 Red Snapper stamp/endorsement to give a more accurate count of those that may fish for snapper. Second, I think that there should be a survey, such as the federal migratory bird survey, before you are issued the stamp/endorsement. I.E. Did you fish for red snapper? How many did you harvest last season? Etc. An alternate idea would be to develop some kind of smartphone app where private boat owners must report their trip and report their catch.
> 
> Fairwaterfishing is correct that the private recreational sector's largest vulnerability to criticism is the fact that the recreational catch (or lack thereof) is nearly impossible to gauge. Whether the stock assessment data is wrong or not, that is an area that is going to have to be improved.


Great post you have been doing your homework!!


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

DI 310 said:


> Tell me if I am looking at this wrong. If and I say if the feds go to a fish tag, it would be only around a half a million tags (4000000 lbs/ 8 lbs per fish) If I remember correctly there are over a thousand boats that have a federal reef fish permit. So if they divided them it wouldn't be but around 500 tags per boat with 0 left for the recs. So please tell me how this could possibly work? Who makes the call on who gets what?



On the CFH question there are about 1200 permits but only about 600 boats, and not all the boats fish for red snapper and not all that fish for red snapper do it full time and not all the full timers fish everyday, and not all the full timers fish double trips. Until the universe is defined we really have no clue how many people are fishing for them and how hard.

If there was a tag program in place I do not care how they did it as long as it was fair. Im sure the rec guys could get them at a tackle store and the CFH could get a weeks worth from the conservation department every Monday. Maybe make them valid for a week if not used you must turn them in and get new ones. This would keep the more accurate count so you won't go over on your catch by holding on to them too long.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> I appreciate your openess about CFA intent. I hope you can understand the reluctance to participate in a federal fish management process that seems to be already stacked against us from high dollar enviro lobby groups to commercial and some CFH captains banded together with a goal of gaining a piece of the recreational allocation. For right now the shelter the state of Florida is poised to provide in the form of a 44 day snapper season, even if only temporary,seems to be the only solace available in the recreational snapper fishing "desert" created by the national fisheries service in their management of the gulf fishery.


I do not speak for the CFA I am what you would call an active member, I am also an active member of the OBFA, active on my state fishery issues, and I am a member of several other fishing organizations. I am my own man and speak my own thoughts, If I was not allowed to do so by an organization I would not be a part of it.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

JoeZ said:


> I don't disagree with you, I was just making a different - devil's advocate if you will - argument. Notes below.



Are you guys saying that we should end all commercial fishing of every salt water fish that swims and has seasons and catch limits? Or just the ones you like to catch? Sewer cat from China would get old after a while.


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## Harbison (Apr 18, 2012)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> how is a fishing license not a catch share? Think about it.
> 
> :whip:a fishing license gives you a right to go fishing to try and harvest a fish that other people can try to harvest too. A catch share gives only you the right to harvest the fish.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Are you guys saying that we should end all commercial fishing of every salt water fish that swims and has seasons and catch limits? Or just the ones you like to catch? Sewer cat from China would get old after a while.


Just the ones that are "overfished".....


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Are you guys saying that we should end all commercial fishing of every salt water fish that swims and has seasons and catch limits? Or just the ones you like to catch? Sewer cat from China would get old after a while.


Are you saying the commercial industry should be ahead of the recreational fisherman? If so I say you are wrong!!


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

sniperpeeps said:


> Just the ones that are "overfished".....


Well Red Snapper are no longer being "overfished". They are on a 200 year rebuilding plan I think.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

TOBO said:


> Are you saying the commercial industry should be ahead of the recreational fisherman? If so I say you are wrong!!


No I never said that, but the american consumer is still a very large part of the management of the gulf, and if your going to talk gulf management the commercial side is still a very strong player. They were making examples of Elk and Ducks that used to be hunted commercially and now they are game animals.


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> No I never said that, but the american consumer is still a very large part of the management of the gulf, and if your going to talk gulf management the commercial side is still a very strong player. They were making examples of Elk and Ducks that used to be hunted commercially and now they are game animals.


As buffalo. Your colors are clear to me now, and you are are for commercial fisherman over a recreational fisherman. You have proved your loyalty. I say there is plenty for all , but if it is me against you I say game-fish status. Unity has long been a problem in this fight, I believe there is plenty for all. I also believe you have an agenda that has nothing to do with the recreational fisherman.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

TOBO said:


> As buffalo. Your colors are clear to me now, and you are are for commercial fisherman over a recreational fisherman. You have proved your loyalty. I say there is plenty for all , but if it is me against you I say game-fish status. Unity has long been a problem in this fight, I believe there is plenty for all. I also believe you have an agenda that has nothing to do with the recreational fisherman.


You know you might have a point but since I have never commercial fished, make 0 money in any way from any kind of commercial activities, and I have taken recreational fishermen fishing for hire for the past 30 years own and operate 2 charterboats that take only recreational fishermen fishing, you have no point sorry. Im just showing you the facts of fishery management in the gulf and yes its commercial fishing dominated. Actually the NMFS was built to manage commercial fishing, dealing with commercial fishing is part of dealing with our management issues. Sit back listen and get to know me before you jump up and down judging someone you dont know.


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## Berry (Mar 8, 2011)

Fairwater is correct in saying we rec guys have to be able to show some type of hard accurate data proving our catch even if we completely change the system. we still have to have a starting point for how many we are harvesting. I work full time wife and 3 kids and have a 23 foot boat in the last two years i brought home 16-18 snapper in 2011 and 4 in 2012, I have both a FL and AL license. In the current system how many snapper was counted off those two licenses. I have never been stopped and had my snapper counted, i have never participated in a survey. The only verified snapper the government has from me is one i shot with a tracking tag on it.

I agree a tag or share system would only give us one side of the equation but politics is give and take. We have to demand a more accurate means of counting the population as well if we are going to jump through extra hoops. I have no idea what the feds will do with Alabama if florida goes noncompliant we have built on of the worlds best artificial reef programs but cant even use it.


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## Fog Ducker (Dec 24, 2009)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> If there was a tag program in place I do not care how they did it as long as it was fair.


Who determines "fair"? The same corrupt organization that fabricates the current stock numbers and wants an all catch-and-release fishery? Or the group with the most money and/or best lobbyists? 

I applaud your efforts at accountability, but trying to reach consensus on counting the backend with fabricated numbers on the front end is nothing but mental masturbation. The NMFS is accountable to themselves only, at least at this point. As long as the federal government is involved, the recreational fishermen is not going to come out well.


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> You know you might have a point but since I have never commercial fished, make 0 money in any way from any kind of commercial activities, and I have taken recreational fishermen fishing for hire for the past 30 years own and operate 2 charterboats that take only recreational fishermen fishing, you have no point sorry. Im just showing you the facts of fishery management in the gulf and yes its commercial fishing dominated. Actually the NMFS was built to manage commercial fishing, dealing with commercial fishing is part of dealing with our management issues. Sit back listen and get to know me before you jump up and down judging someone you dont know.


Well I am very glad to here your interest are not with the commercial fisherman. Maybe I misunderstood your intent, if your just explaining things that's great. We certainly need to know what we are up against . You are obviously very passionate ( and knowledgeable ) about the subject as many of us are. I certainly agree dealing with commercial fisherman is part of the problem, pretty much everything they do is part of the problem.

Just for the record I didn't jump up and down, and part of human nature is to judge.


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## Chet88 (Feb 20, 2008)

sniperpeeps said:


> Just the ones that are "overfished".....


Why not make the Snapper a Gamefish? Seemed to work well for the Redfish.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm up for trying anything to help all three sectors (rec, charter, and commercial) and I agree that we need all of them in society. Although unless someone comes up with something very creative that I've never seen before the tags will not work for red snapper. They work well for a fish like tarpon where someone buys one tag for one fish, but I can only imagine the kaos trying to deal with snapper tags as a license retailer. 

This is my 15th year selling fishing license and I have never once entered the amount of migratory birds someone killed the previous season, I've asked a few people and they look at me like I'm crazy. Well that's how Florida counts its bird by entering them into the license machine and we will see something silly like that with red snapper. 

The simple fact is that its an impossible task to count the red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico or the ones brought to the dock by recreational anglers, it's simply an estimate and scientist are paid big dollars to estimate. 

I'll give you a run down on what I think will happen with tags and why members for certain organizations are in such strong support for tags. The NMFS loves this word "accountability" and the commercial fisherman have learned how to use it. After one year with the tag program it's going to be figured out that it worked well in the charter sector, but not in the rec sector. Not because recreational anglers don't want to do what's best, but they aren't as involved or understand fishery management the same. At that point a group of charter boat operators will run to the NMFS and say look how great we did with "accountability" and you shouldn't punish us for the recreational anglers not being accountable. Well here comes your sector separation...

I just for once wish these organizations would do what's right for everyone and not try to angle it for their own benefit. Matt and I would love to get on board with a group or organization to fight fishery management, but everyone has an agenda to hurt another sector or is funded by a big boy playing with the members on strings. 

With all that being said if the right idea comes along I'll be in full support of a tagging program or whatever the NMFS wants, but I haven't seen anything even in the ballpark!


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Are you guys saying that we should end all commercial fishing of every salt water fish that swims and has seasons and catch limits? Or just the ones you like to catch? Sewer cat from China would get old after a while.


Now you're twisting my words. 

It was an example just to illustrate that NMFS and the Coucil are not really out for our best interests or even that of the fishery. 

If the fish are in danger, why do they allow commercial harvest? 

Why do we - the recreational and cfh sector - have to be relegated to the constraints of an organization that has proven to be inept at fisheries management? 

Tags, quotas, stamps and policing are all simply more government and more government oversight. More government expense and more beaurocracy. 

While a stamp would be my first choice of the mentioned options - it counts angler effort and could have a counting mechanism built in - how about we start with an accurate count of the fish stock. 

They do not calculate the fish on artificial reefs, rigs or anything in the Gulf other than natural bottom sites. Y'all fish. Where would you rather go for more and /or bigger fish natural bottom or a private wreck?

Magnuson Stevens does not need to be amended it needs to be abolished. 

New game. 

*and pardon any typos, iPhones are tough with this forum*


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## fish head (Jul 6, 2009)

One thing is for certain, the commercial fishing industry is well-organized and well-represented at these Gulf Council meetings as well as Washington DC. I went to the Q&A session last week and my first clue to that was when Roy Crabtree called each and every one of them by first name. These IFQ "plantation owners" have the time and the resources to go to every meeting along the gulf coast. 

Anyway, my point is, and Fairwaterfishing's point is that we on the recreational side of the fence need to have a united front and work toward common goals. We as a recreational sector outnumber the commercial side exponentially but we are not nearly as organized and are often fighting against each other. I'm infuriated that NMFS' numbers are wrong and they keep taking days away but just yelling "it ain't fair" is not going to get things changed. Until the recreational sector comes up with a better system of tracking our catches, then we remain very vulnerable to critism from the commercial sector and other groups. We look like a bunch of game hogs that don't care about the sustainability of the fishery. Meanwhile, the commercial side is saying that while the recreational sector is "out of control" they are responsible stewards and are staying within their limits each and every year. It makes me want to gag but the IFQ backs the up. Unfortunately, while most of use rec guys are screaming just go fishing and you will see all the snapper, this is a nightmarish mix of politics and science. There is no room for common sense. 

I for one appreciate the fact that Fairwater is willing to listen us private guys and share ideas. I absolutely love saltwater fishing with a passion but my livelihood is not dependant on it (just my mental health). Guys like Fairwater's livihood is dependant on fishing and while we may not line up on every issue, we are all on the same side of the allocation fence. He's got the ear of some folks in Washington and he's also interested in what we've to say. Lets give him some reasonable ideas to take back to Washington and/or the Gulf Council the next time he goes. Once we show that we want to be accountable and maintain a healthy fishery then I think we will be taken more seriously when we tell the NMFS (or state managers if we are so fortunate) their numbers are way off.


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## Lyin Too (Aug 31, 2009)

I think most state managers know the numbers are way off. The feds wont listen to them. Thats our problem.


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## Magic Mike (Jun 30, 2009)

Can anyone explain why they don't count fish on artificial reefs? That's like not counting people in big cities when doing a census...


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

Magic Mike said:


> Can anyone explain why they don't count fish on artificial reefs? That's like not counting people in big cities when doing a census...



The simple answer is that they do not believe artificial reefs to be true habitat the enhances the population but merely "fish aggregating" structures that draw in fish from other areas.

It makes no sense. They don't credit artificial reefs or oil and gas rigs as being habitat or ecosystems. They think they just lure in the fish and make them easier to catch. 

Boggles my mind.


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## fish head (Jul 6, 2009)

JoeZ said:


> The simple answer is that they do not believe artificial reefs to be true habitat the enhances the population but merely "fish aggregating" structures that draw in fish from other areas.
> 
> It makes no sense. They don't credit artificial reefs or oil and gas rigs as being habitat or ecosystems. They think they just lure in the fish and make them easier to catch.
> 
> Boggles my mind.


Also, they say there are 600 times more acres of hard bottom in the Gulf than there is acres of artificial reefs. So, in their minds artificial reefs only make up 1/600th of the habitat; therefore, they didnt think it was significant enough to worry about. They ignore the fact that artificial reefs contain exponentially more biomass per acre than hard bottom. They will tell you that they consider artificial reefs when the take surveys at the dock but what they mean is the fish don't count until they are brought to the dock. They claim that they are going to consider artificial habitat more seriously in the new stock assessment that is coming out later this year. We will see. My suggestion on the gulf council Facebook page was that we would give them natural bottom if we could have a six month season on artificial reefs. They didn't really like that offer.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Fog Ducker said:


> Who determines "fair"? The same corrupt organization that fabricates the current stock numbers and wants an all catch-and-release fishery? Or the group with the most money and/or best lobbyists?
> 
> I applaud your efforts at accountability, but trying to reach consensus on counting the backend with fabricated numbers on the front end is nothing but mental masturbation. The NMFS is accountable to themselves only, at least at this point. As long as the federal government is involved, the recreational fishermen is not going to come out well.


States must do this, and keep up and enforce them.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Chet88 said:


> Why not make the Snapper a Gamefish? Seemed to work well for the Redfish.


Your Commercial Lobby is way too strong, you have to remember its not just the fisherman, its the fish houses, restaurants, and the american consumer. The recreational side as it is now does not stand a chance against them. Its just the facts.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Chris Phillips said:


> I'm up for trying anything to help all three sectors (rec, charter, and commercial) and I agree that we need all of them in society. Although unless someone comes up with something very creative that I've never seen before the tags will not work for red snapper. They work well for a fish like tarpon where someone buys one tag for one fish, but I can only imagine the kaos trying to deal with snapper tags as a license retailer.
> 
> This is my 15th year selling fishing license and I have never once entered the amount of migratory birds someone killed the previous season, I've asked a few people and they look at me like I'm crazy. Well that's how Florida counts its bird by entering them into the license machine and we will see something silly like that with red snapper.
> 
> ...


Chris maybe its time for you guys to come up with the right idea and stop waiting for someone else to do it. I will promise you if someone else comes up with the ideas your not going to like everything about them. You guys pushed real hard for the extra 17 day band aid the state gave you, time to put the same mind to the real problems and stand up and fight, and I'm not talking about going to a meeting for one day of public testimony and claiming that your part of the meeting, there is way more too it than that and it takes loads of time and money.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm not going to bicker and argue with you online, but would be happy to come over to Orange Beach and discuss the issue with you! You treat me as if I just arrived on the scene and that's completely not the case. I have traveled all over the place attending fishery meetings on my own dime. It's impossible to work within the system the way it is now and without a major disruption you are not going to get anywhere. We have tried all sorts of stuff and the Southeast NMFS has not been open to anything, you can't argue that point! I have a plan and it started with getting the state to go non compliant. One day you'll understand I'm not fighting for a few more days for this season...


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Chris maybe its time for you guys to come up with the right idea and stop waiting for someone else to do it. I will promise you if someone else comes up with the ideas your not going to like everything about them. You guys pushed real hard for the extra 17 day band aid the state gave you, time to put the same mind to the real problems and stand up and fight, and I'm not talking about going to a meeting for one day of public testimony and claiming that your part of the meeting, there is way more too it than that and it takes loads of time and money.


Wow...you CFA guys get pretty nasty when someone doesn't like the idea of catch shares/IFQ's! 

The truth is you and your organization WANT for the NMFS to have absolute power over the fishery in hopes that it will serve your interests and you have no problem taking from the recreational angler! 

Nice job trying to trivialize Florida's state season... But it won't work! You and your buddies know good and well this is MUCH bigger than a "17 day band aid"! This is stripping the power from the NMFS. This upsets you because you hoped that if you were nice and played the game you would be rewarded with gifts of charter IFQ'S, but now the states have taken that away. 

It's clear where you stand now, the smoke screen is gone. 

You can tell your buddies at the CFA our plan is very simple. Gut the MSA stripping the federal government of its power and giving control back to the states and the people, where it always belonged!


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Matt I hear everything you say and its a damn noble idea, I really hope it goes this way. I wish you would have been in Jo Bonners office a couple days ago and heard that discussion with the other 9 fishermen, it got a little heated. you might have a different opinion of me. I had some very long discussions on Alabama going to 15 miles that I am all for and have been for, for a long time. Even in a State fishery your going to have to have accountability measures. Im for change in the fishery also have to be realistic, the federal government monster will not take any of this laying down. I believe the state of Florida knows this also, reason for only 44 days and starting on June 1st. The state is being very, very cautious. Any way good discussion last thing im doing on here is trying to make enemies, that gets us no where. Most of the things I say is just to play devils advocate and make you think on both sides of the fence to say.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Below text is the Fishing Rights Alliance media release on the subject- Note the following offer for federal permit holders .:watching:

"_The FRA will attempt to organize those who are interested into a focus group to explore with legal counsel what options are available for relief. This in no way should imply that there is any legal remedy at this point. The affected parties' legal remedies will only be discussed and explored with attorneys. Interested, affected parties should email __[email protected]__ with your contact information." _ 

_*FWC to NMFS- More snapper = More days. 44 to be exact.*

The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission meeting in Orlando yesterday produced some interesting results. Regarding red snapper in state waters, the FWC expressed their concerns which mirrored those of other states over the true health and picture of the red snapper stock in the Gulf of Mexico. The FWC took a seriously unexpected step in declaring that state waters will be open for 44 days for red snapper starting June 1 this year. Their logic was simple: Last year, we had a 40 day season; red snapper are unanimously agreed to be more abundant this year; therefore, we should have a LONGER season than last year.

This decision reflects the FWC's total frustration with the federal management of our red snapper stocks. The decision has grave impacts on federally permitted charter fishermen. Under the current laws, which were dreamed up and put in place by the National Marine Fisheries Service, a federally permitted charter boat operator may not fish in state waters if federal waters are close. This incredibly arrogant control of state waters by a federal appointed official appeared to be the straw that broke the camel's back with the FWC. The ball is now in NMFS' court. To say NMFS is embarrassed is an understatement. Congress will be appalled, once again. Perhaps a trip to the woodshed would affect the direction of future federal management actions.

The Fishing Rights Alliance thinks that these federal permit holders may have grounds for a class action lawsuit against National Marine Fisheries Service. In all likelihood, if Louisiana and Florida do not change their state water openings, the National Marine Fisheries Service will not even open red snapper to recreational anglers in Gulf federal waters in 2013. That would restrict federal permit holders to no red snapper fishing whatsoever. That is both a travesty and an outrage. The FRA will attempt to organize those who are interested into a focus group to explore with legal counsel what options are available for relief. This in no way should imply that there is any legal remedy at this point. The affected parties' legal remedies will only be discussed and explored with attorneys. Interested, affected parties should email __[email protected]__ with your contact information. The anglers unable to fish in federal waters, whether from a professional captain's boat or one's own boat, are also affected. Stay tuned for information regarding our remedies._


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

If a saltwater fishing license is used for one of their counting methods then they are way off on the number of Snapper being taken. 23 of my family members have a saltwater fishing license and only 4 of us out of the 23 fish in the Gulf. So the other 19 are being counted as taking Snapper. If that is the case then what I think would be a more accurate is to sale a Gulf Saltwater License for the anglers that target Gulf fish. Anyone in possession of fish must have this license including children 16 and under if you are planning on keeping their catch for bag limit. 


At least that will break it down to how many anglers are actually fishing the Gulf and not just fishing the bays. Also they would know who to target for the surveys to collect data on catches.I would be willing to pay a little more for the license if we could get FWC to implement a reef program from the proceeds.


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

I am all for improving the system that in place now, but I really do not know the tag system would be the right move or not. As Tom stated in a previous post he caught about 900 snapper in last years season. I do not see how one boat could end up with anything close to that number via the tag system. With that being said, and I am sure most CFH captains have thought about having their customers pick up tags and using them on their boats so they will not have to use their own. This in turn would be a lot less for the guys with their own boats. On the other hand if they issued tags that covered the 4 million lbs.that are allowed to be caught and all of them are not used in a season it proves the point their numbers have always been wrong. Any thoughts?


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

How about a Red Snapper stamp. We have Snook stamps and various other stamps... Buy it once per season and Go...


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## Jack Hexter (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm glad the state is going to go non-compliant, basically telling Roy to shove it where the sun don't shine, and you guys in the panhandle just won a 17 day lottery, but when Roy closes ALL federal water off the State, the rest of the state, particularly on the West coast (Tampa/St Pete?Sarasota) are screwed. And that includes ME!!


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Jack Hexter said:


> I'm glad the state is going to go non-compliant, basically telling Roy to shove it where the sun don't shine, and you guys in the panhandle just won a 17 day lottery, but when Roy closes ALL federal water off the State, the rest of the state, particularly on the West coast (Tampa/St Pete?Sarasota) are screwed. And that includes ME!!


So you would rather have a 17 day season rather than fight for a legitimate season? Realistically what is 17 days going to do for you? Figure half of those would be bad weather days so you are down to 9 days. Out of those 9 days you will have to work half, so you are down to 4 days. So you would rather have 4 days to fish for snapper rather than fight the fight that has to be fought to get a legitimate snapper season?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Jack Hexter said:


> I'm glad the state is going to go non-compliant, basically telling Roy to shove it where the sun don't shine, and you guys in the panhandle just won a 17 day lottery, but when Roy closes ALL federal water off the State, the rest of the state, particularly on the West coast (Tampa/St Pete?Sarasota) are screwed. And that includes ME!!


Jack

Not sure if you meant all federal water fishing or federal water snapper fishing.
I may be proved wrong but i don't think Roy has the authority to shutdown all federal water just because of state non compliance with the federal snapper season. he may be able to shut down gulf snapper fishing in federal water but that is about it. Can't tell if that is a rumor started to scare non compliance supporters or what guess we shall see.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Jack
> 
> Not sure if you meant all federal water fishing or federal water snapper fishing.
> I may be proved wrong but i don't think Roy has the authority to shutdown all federal water just because of state non compliance with the federal snapper season. he may be able to shut down gulf snapper fishing in federal water but that is about it. Can't tell if that is a rumor started to scare non compliance supporters or what guess we shall see.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

As of right now does anyone know what reef fish we can keep in federal waters in July?


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

Gag grouper and mingos!


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## Jack Hexter (Oct 2, 2007)

Red grouper will be open in July (it opens on April 1) Gags will open July 1 for an unspecified period until the rec quota is met. Mango's will also be open, AJ's will be closed. Here's a simple chart 

http://www.gulfcouncil.org/fishing_regulations/regulations_matrix/Site/Regulations_Matrix.html

I miss-spoke when I said ALL federal water off of Florida, I knew it was only for Snapper. When I spoke of the 17 day lottery, I was speaking of the 17 extra days the State has allotted, over the 27 days Roy "gave" us. I listened to the meetings ( both Gulf Council and FWS) 

I have been attending meetings, speaking (banging my head against the wall for all the Council cares) I'm on the advisory board of the FRA ever since the red grouper fiasco about 8 or 9 years ago. Before then I lived in Miami and went to the SAFMC meetings which is also under the direction of Crabtree. I've been asking/fighting for better science and asking the councils to fix MRFSS (which they have said they have done with the new plan, but it's the same garbage).

Like I said, I'm glad the state finally told Crabtree to shove it, just a little unhappy that it was for so little gain and I'm one of the guys who will have to bite the bullet because of it


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Yep, trying to get jacks or triggers or both.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

Triggers and jacks will be closed.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

If we get jacks in July they will close it in may.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

There was a decent push at the last meeting to open something up in July, I believe we will get something, need a strong push at the meeting in April.


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## Chris Phillips (Oct 1, 2007)

If it's closed May & June do you think they'll close it before the year ends? Seems like the catch numbers would be higher in July, but sure would be nice to have it open...


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Well the whole split season was pushed bY the CFH so we would have Some kind of trophy fish to catch year around if it wasnt split the jacks would run out before the end of june. We really thought that we would have red snapper during the summer. These summer days with everything decent closed have been tough. If this is something you all are interested in send in some comments during the next meeting I think it's something we can get.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

I think may is a spawning month for jacks so they should take that into account.


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## hjorgan (Sep 30, 2007)

I guess I'm safe with my usual catch of sail cats and stingrays. We need a Boston Tea Party with fish instead of tea.


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## Harbison (Apr 18, 2012)

The voice of the people:
I fish the Florida Middle Grounds. The Grounds is covered with red snapper. I have really been looking forward to ARS season. With Florida going non-compliant, Mississippi & Alabama will probably follow. This would mean all five gulf states have shown NO confidence in NOAA's Gulf Council, and are ready to do something about it. Even if a defiant Crabtree does close federal waters to red snapper fishing, it's a move that had to be done. With a shorter & shorter ARS season each year it's just a matter of time until we would have NO season anyway. The 28 day 2013 season is a slap in the face to the saltwater fishing community. If our sport is to continue, NOAA's grip must be broken. Florida has taken a very bold step towards breaking the strangle hole NOAA holds over every costal state. Let the Northern Counties have their ARS. We have our grouper. 
'The voice of the people' has been & will continue to be heard. 
To prosper, both fish & fisherman must have, and abide by, very strict regulations. However, we the people must demand that these regulations be based on modern up-to-date data, data from real on the water science, not data manipulated to show the need for shares/separation. 
If NOAA, Crabtree, the Gulf Council refuse to become part of the solution, rather than part of the problem, they can and must be replaced. 'The voice of the people' has been and will continue to be heard. Bob Harbison


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I think may is a spawning month for jacks so they should take that into account.


 
they dont care about spawning

_Reproduction_ 
All snapper are oviparous. Northern red snapper spawn in areas away from reefs, at depths of 60-120 feet (18-37m) over flat sand bottom areas. The peak spawning period is June through August in the northwestern Gulf of Mexico, and from August to September off southwestern Florida. Individual fish may spawn several times during the spawning season, and may produce over 9 million eggs during a single spawning event. Northern red snapper eggs are pelagic, spherical and transparent, measuring 0.8mm in diameter. After spawning, the eggs are buoyant, floating on the surface of the water. The eggs hatch 20-27 hours after fertilization. The larvae are very small (2.2mm) and vulnerable to starvation and predation. Initially planktonic, they begin to settle out of the water column after about 20 days. The larvae settle on areas with some protection from predators, such as open shell beds. Juveniles have bands below the dorsal fin, the darkest of which appears below the second dorsal fin. As the juveniles mature, they move to the reefs where they stay as adults.


if these scientists are so smart why do they open season at the peak spawning period?


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## TOBO (Oct 3, 2007)

What's with all the negativity ? Lets talk about the good things they have done as far as snapper handling....

Never mind I am drawing a blank on this one .


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

TOBO said:


> What's with all the negativity ? Lets talk about the good things they have done as far as snapper handling....
> 
> Never mind I am drawing a blank on this one .


It is what it is, man. There are about a dozen "hot button" issues on here that wreak havoc and take over everything. Normal insults, etc. etc.

I was looking at a thread on steering knobs (suicide knobs or whatever) on another boating forum earlier and people were about to kill each other about where to put the damned thing! Ha, blew my mind. Peace.


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