# mercruiser help



## flaxterra (Oct 21, 2007)

this started off with me trying to trace down a cooling problem. the boat is a 95 bayliner with a 3.0l mercruiser alpha outdrive. i had the boat on the lift with the foot in the water up to the water ports. started the boat, just like i always do and waited for water to come out, to ensure the motor is sucking water. well it didnt, so i shut down the motor before getting hot, trouble shot and trouble shot. i was able to hook the water hose to the foot and the motor would cool and shoot water out. so i thought must have been a seawater pump problem, never been changed. never had a reason to i guess. so i pulled the boat out of the water a brought it to my house. changed the pump. just about to start her up then decieded to change oil first. pulled the plug and out comes water/oil mix. uh oh. drained it all out, hoping for the best, put new oil in, pulled spark plugs to check for moisture. nothing. hoping maybe just condensation build up. anyways, started it up. i had the foot in a large tub to make sure it was sucking water up. well it didnt really seem to, not all the ports were covered with water, the tub was too small. pump water through with hose and everything is fine. shut the boat down and checked the oil and found a slight water/oil mix. i guess my question is: could this be a manifold/riser problem?? pretty sure its not the head gasket. seemed to run good and still dont see moisture on plugs. i just cant seem to understand why it wont suck up water?? would a manifold cause this?? i'm a auto tech so i have a little knowledge, well what relates to cars. any info??


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

Time for a lower unit rebuild with new seals and waterpump. Real easy thing to do. Give Tuna Man a PM. He could probably walk you through the entire process step by step. Hope you don't mind that I put you up to the task Ron.:moon


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## flaxterra (Oct 21, 2007)

now im really confused cause i just changed the water pump, along with the seals that came with the kit, and how would water get in the engine oil?? not that i dont believe you, im just trying to understand.


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## sosmarine (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't see resealing the lower unit unless there is water getting in the lube. 

When you changed the pump, did you just change the imp or did change the gaskets and wear plates too? 

I would first stick it back in the water and run it. Watch the temp. If the temp does get to high then let run for a while. Then check oil again. The milky look you have now could just be residue from the first time. If the oil turns real milky again I would say it is either cracked block, head or blown head gasket. It could just be between a oil and water passage and not a cylinder. I had one do basically the same a few years ago on a 3.0 Sea Ray. Not that the boat matters.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

> *flaxterra (1/21/2008)*now im really confused cause i just changed the water pump, along with the seals that came with the kit, and how would water get in the engine oil?? not that i dont believe you, im just trying to understand.


There is a water pump kit and a Lower unit seal kit also. But if you changed both, I would lean more too what SOS said. You can go to this website for a drawing of your lower unit with part numbers etc...

http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_Pictures3.asp?dnbr=818183%2091&ivar=images/CRUISER/818183.91/15.png&inbr=1017&bnbr=80&bdesc=GEAR+HOUSING+%28DRIVESHAFT%29%28STANDARD+ROTATION%29

<TABLE cellPadding=1 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=right bgColor=#ffffff>-</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff>817275Q4</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff>WATER PUMP REBUILD KIT</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff>817275A4</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffffff>$143.90</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#00ccff>$124.48</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffffff>1</TD><TD><INPUT style="FONT-SIZE: 10px" size=4 name=817275Q4x44></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right bgColor=#ffffff>-</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff>26-816575A3</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff>SEAL KIT</TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffffff>$76.80</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#00ccff>$70.28</TD><TD align=right bgColor=#ffffff>1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## flaxterra (Oct 21, 2007)

i changed just the waterpump kit. thanks for all the great info. will do some more checking tomorrow. compression test and a larger tub to actually see if it is sucking water.


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## sniper (Oct 3, 2007)

engine oil and sea water mixed?? If the boat has always been where the manifold is higher than the water level. I would susspect head gasket. If the boat was alowed to submerg a little I would suspect water through the manifold. Listen to SOS tho he should know.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Knot a Yacht (1/21/2008)*Time for a lower unit rebuild with new seals and waterpump. Real easy thing to do. Give Tuna Man a PM. He could probably walk you through the entire process step by step. Hope you don't mind that I put you up to the task Ron.:moon










Now you ask....You know damn well I don't mind.


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## The Maintenance Shoppe (Nov 5, 2007)

Its a 95' motor with original risers 13 years old...HMMMMMM...


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *TMS (1/21/2008)*Its a 95' motor with original risers 13 years old...HMMMMMM...


No damn HMMMMMM about it. exhaust/risers good for 5-6 years maximum..for me anyway.

"*waited for water to come out*" do you have through transom exhaust or through prop exhaust?

First things first...Where was the water (milky oil) in the foot or the engine. Everyone seems to be reading foot, I'm reading in the oil pan.

13 year old exhaust/risers...Trash them, and I'm not kidding in the least. I have NIGHTMARE pictures of what can/will happen to the engine with a bad exhaust/riser. I wouldn't so much as crank a engine with exhaust/risers that old PERIOD. You see my pictures I'd bet you won't either. Maybe with cups only but NO way with a load on the engine.

<U>http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/c/MER9/Exhaust%20System%20for%20Mercruiser</U>http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/c/MER9A/Manifolds+for+Mercruiser

No way for water to enter the oil pan from the exhaust manifold, it can and will get into the cylinders. There are no water ports in the exhaust manifold that go/flow into the head. I'm thinking either 1) Cracked head..2) Blown head gasket..3) Bad intake gasket..4) Cracked block and or the cylinder wall. Eliminate the head gasket first by doing a compression check.

If you installed the impeller backwards it won't pump as it should. I'm thinking that even if backwards the vanes should flop in the correct direction, but as I have never installed them backward I can't swear that they will or won't.

There are other reasons why the foot will not pump to the engine driven pump...too many to type..PM me your phone number and I can call you. Be more than happy to help you along the way.

One more thing...when you do get it fixed ...never go from WOT to a dead stop if you can help it. Believe it or not COLD water can back feed up to the exhaust manifolds...HOT manifold and COLD water is a:nonono:nonono


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

Look between #4 and #6 cylinder on both head and block. Both block and head trashed...not once but twice within 5 hours. Not good:banghead:banghead:banghead


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

Ok, I think I got confused a bit. Are we talking foot oil or engine oil? Disregard what I've said if we are talking about engine oil.:doh


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## sosmarine (Sep 28, 2007)

Since he said he pulled the spark plugs I was "assuming" he meant engine oil.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *sosmarine (1/22/2008)*Since he said he pulled the spark plugs I was "assuming" he meant engine oil.


That also is how I read it...

"just about to start her up then decieded to change oil first. pulled the plug and out comes water/oil mix. uh oh. *drained it* *all out*, hoping for the best, *put new oil in, pulled spark plugs to* *check for moisture.* *nothing. hoping maybe just* *condensation build up.* anyways, started it up. i had the foot in a large tub to make sure it was"

But you all know what "ASS U ME" means.:banghead

That is why I wanted clarity and questioned... First things first...Where was the water (milky oil) in the foot or the engine. Everyone seems to be reading foot, I'm reading in the oil pan.


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## Sequoiha (Sep 28, 2007)

i would also like to add something, he stated that he put the boat in the water just enough to cover the water intake. When the boat is setting in the water the entire water pump housing is submerged thus making it a water pump, when it is on a water hose there city water pressure forcing the water into the pump. when he just puts it in the water just enough to cover the water inlets, the pump housing in not submerged thus making it an air pump... ive had this happen several times when trying to winterize from a tub with anterfreeze, i think he needs to put the boat in the water and try it again before he changes anything.

the water in the oil is another matter, most likely risers....

:usaflag


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## bonita dan (Oct 3, 2007)

So is it the engine oil or lower unit oil we're talkin about here?????


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Sequoiha (1/22/2008)*the water in the oil is another matter, most likely risers....:usaflag


*How would water from the exhaust manifold/riser let water into the engine/oil panunless a piston has a hole in it which would show up in a compression check????:banghead:banghead:banghead*

*Otherwise I can only see water getting into the combustion chamber, and not mixing with the engine oil. Which will in itself FUBAR the engine.*

*I'm still going with a bad head gasket, cracked head,badintake gasket, cracked block, cracked intake (highly unlikely).*


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## Sequoiha (Sep 28, 2007)

> *Tuna Man (1/22/2008)*
> 
> 
> > *Sequoiha (1/22/2008)*the water in the oil is another matter, most likely risers....:usaflag
> ...




He never said he did a compression test, could be rings, hell for that matter he could have a hole in the piston,,, but you are probably right, head gasket... but in anycase, depending on the condition of the rings there is a possibility that water can enter the oil through the cylinders, might be slight but still a possibility, it appears we are all guessing here anyway..

might not even be new water at all, just water that wasnt cleaned out the first time...

:usaflag


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## bonita dan (Oct 3, 2007)

Another thing if it is in the engine oil,there are 2 seals at the end of the camshaft. 1 keeps oil in where its supposed to be and 1 keeps coolant or seawater(depending on what system it has in it) in the cooling system. If the coolant seal goes bad it will pump coolant into the crankcase since its under much more pressure than the lubricationsystem. Seen it a thousand times or just once when seals went bad on my 3.7l and wore a nice little groove in my cam from the seal spring. Just another idea if thats what we're talking about here.


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## sosmarine (Sep 28, 2007)

> *Tuna Man (1/22/2008)*
> 
> 
> > *Sequoiha (1/22/2008)*the water in the oil is another matter, most likely risers....:usaflag
> ...


Somebody missed something in the original post. We're dealing with a 3.0L. Intake and exhaust manifold are one in the same. 

Practically every motor than I have worked on with cracked/corroded exh. manifold or riser, that has sat for even a few days the water has slipped passed the rings and into the oil. I had at least three this past season.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

I'll buy that. Although the manifolds/risers NEED to be replaced if for no other reason due to age. When my manifold/riser went no traces of water was found in oil pan, even running as hard and hot as it got and with allthe compression on the compression stroke. But I can see if the rings are worn that seepage could occur. I find it hard to believe that a water molecule being large will seep past the rings (with a oil film) just sitting for a short time, but will take your word as you have experienced it. Experience, however bad:banghead is the best teacher.


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## flaxterra (Oct 21, 2007)

ok, first off, thanks to everyone who has helped trying figure this problem out. after reading this you guys probaly wont wanna talk to me again. first let me answer the questions. i replaced the water pump with a pump kit cause i had a water flow problem. it never got hot. i had the foot dipped in the water enough to make sure it was flowing before lowering the boat in the water, just as i always do, this time i saw no flow. so after doing simple trouble shooting, being an automotive tech mind you, not much experience with boats,i decieded it was the water pump. well, i finally changed it, was about to started it up but then decieded to change engine oil first since it was about due. water came out with engine oil. pulled spark plugs to see no rust or water on plugs. drained out oil, put new in and still now flow of water while running, unless i hook up the hose. well one problem was that the tub i used only came up to a few of the inlet ports on the foot. hooked up hose, boat fired off great, idled good. checked the oil and found a slight mix, no extra oil on dipstick, which would tell me that at this time no more water come into oil. talked to someof you guys last night and found out about the whole manifold/riser thing, in how they needed to be changed, guess i was blindly riding a thin linewith that one. now....woke up this morning and completly forgot about on key thing. when i first gotit to my house we had one of those weeks of rain. about the third day i was leaving for workand it hit me, i forgot to take the plug out of the boat!!!! ran out there and saw a little less them a foot of water on the deck!!!! which means it more then likely got in the motor that way, seeing how the motor is lower then the deck. honestly i forgot about this otherwise i wouldnt of been wasteing everyones time. of course its not comfired yet but im pretty sure that solves the watery oil andgood looking spark plugs. as for the water flow imsurethe manifold and riser are the problem, it will be my first step of action besides flushing the oil.


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## sosmarine (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks for coming clean. Just kidding. Hope that is all it was. You aren't the first one to leave a plug in.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. Leave the plug in and water stays in. Leave the plug out and water comes in. Both have happend to me. If the water was on the deck, then that probably is all it was.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 5pt 0in; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none">


> *flaxterra (1/22/2008)*ok, i decieded it was the water pump. well, i finally changed it, was about to started it up but then decieded to change engine oil first since it was about due. water came out with engine oil. pulled spark plugs to see no rust or water on plugs. drained out oil, put new in and still now *<SPAN style="COLOR: red">(no?)* flow of water while running, unless i hook up the hose. well one problem was that the tub i used only came up to a few of the inlet ports on the foot *<SPAN style="COLOR: red">(sucking air)* . hooked up hose *<SPAN style="COLOR: red">(hose can force* *<SPAN style="COLOR: red">water to engine)* , boat fired off great, idled good. checked the oil and found a slight mix, no extra oil on dipstick, which would tell me that at this time no more water come into oil. talked to some of you guys last night and found out about the whole manifold/riser thing, in how they needed to be changed, guess i was blindly riding a thin line with that one. now....woke up this morning and completly forgot about on key thing. when i first got it to my house *<SPAN style="COLOR: red">(before or after* *<SPAN style="COLOR: red">changing the oil)* we had one of those weeks of rain. about the third day i was leaving for work and it hit me, i forgot to take the plug out of the boat!!!! ran out there and saw a little less them a foot of water on the deck!!!! which means it more then likely got in the motor that way, seeing how the motor is lower then the deck. honestly i forgot about this otherwise i wouldnt of been wasteing everyones time. of course its not comfired yet but im pretty sure that solves the watery oil and good looking spark plugs. as for the water flow im sure the manifold and riser are the problem, it will be my first step of action besides flushing the oil.


<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 5pt 0in; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none">Things that I'm pondering....<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 5pt 0in; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none">How do you change the oil? Drain in bilge and let it flow out boat drain? Pump out of dipstick tube? What I'm really asking is how you know the water really came out of the oil pan? When at what point did you change the oil, before the water was found in the boat or after the boat was drained. <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 5pt 0in; mso-pagination: none; mso-layout-grid-align: none">How do you know you have a water flow problem (since it never got hot) to the engine driven water pump. Exhaust water expels from the engine through the flow through prop. TestFoot waterpump test). A set of cups will force water through the engine with bad water pumps. Remove the hose from the out drive that goes to the engine driven water pump at the engine pump. Start while foot is in the water (don't use cups). Foot impeller should pump water through it at a rate of about 5-7 psi (I have a water pressure gage on my 350/IO WOT 5-7#). Next if you have flow replace hose to engine water pump and remove hose going to riser (engine water pump test) and repeat test. I cant see (even tho you are going to replace them) where the manifolds/risers would inhibit water flow unless they are stooped up like a stooped up radiator in a car, which I can't see how it could happen.<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">When you replaced the impeller did you make sure it was correct...install the drive shaft moon key in the impeller sleeve


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## flaxterra (Oct 21, 2007)

again, thanks guys for all your help and patience. ok, i change the oil bye the drain plug, i have a really then oil bucket we use at work that just fits. as soon as i pulled the drain plug i saw water coming out. enough to suspect a problem. the rain was way before even changing the sea water pump. so the water in the oil happened before the boat was started. in fact, i didnt even start the boat before changing the engine oil and finding water. it came to me yesterday when trying to figure out how water was in the oil that i had left the plug in the boat and it filled partly up with water. which i know for sure now was the problem. the question about the water pump (engine). when doing just some quick troubleshooting before changing the seawater pump, i pulled the engine waterpump off to check the impellers ( a real problem with automotive, no leaks but no impellers on water pump.) everything was fine, so i suspected the seawater pump.

i was also wondernig how the manifolds could cause a water flow problem unless clogged up, well when i hook the water hose up it flows just fine, because of the pressure, which also would mean no clogs. now that the seawater pump was changed, sunday i started the boat but like i said before, the tub i used wasnt high enough to fill all the ports on the foot. today i got a tub large enough to fill the ports and the engine flow perfectly, just as it should. i know that the manifold and riser should still be changed but it turns out the main problems were: originally a bad seawater pump, then a tub that wasnt large enough to cover water pick up ports. the water in the oil was caused by me (the bonehead) not taking the plug out and rain water entering the engine. the next actions will be flushing the oil and changing the manifold and riser out of good measure.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)




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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

Cost you time, but glad you got out cheap. I know the manifold/risers will cost bucks, but believe me it will be well worth changing them out now then down the road while you rebuild the engine due to water intrusion from them.


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## Salt Life (Sep 30, 2007)

You guys are just awsome ! :grouphug


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## flaxterra (Oct 21, 2007)

i agree with that, you guys are great. thanks again for all the help. hope to see yall on the water very soon.


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