# Wooden boat question



## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

What is it that you put on a wood boat to give it that nice glassy shine and protect the wood?


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## 20simmons sea skiff (Aug 20, 2010)

painted or varnished??


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

20simmons sea skiff said:


> painted or varnished??


Its varnished. I am going to eventually replace the top veneer, but want to peel off what is bad for now and seal it up with something that will make it look nice and shiney.... any ideas?


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## jaster (Oct 7, 2007)

I used like a fiberglass resin years ago. But that was only a small area, it wasn't actual resin, but something like it, 2 part mix!


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## welldoya (Oct 5, 2007)

The only experience I have had with wood on a boat is that I have owned several vintage Boston Whalers with mahogany seats, steering consoles and trim. In those cases what gives it the deep shine is several coats of spar varnish with sanding in between coats.
I usually put on about 8 coats but have known people to put as many as 12.
How big a boat are you talking about ?


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

welldoya said:


> The only experience I have had with wood on a boat is that I have owned several vintage Boston Whalers with mahogany seats, steering consoles and trim. In those cases what gives it the deep shine is several coats of spar varnish with sanding in between coats.
> I usually put on about 8 coats but have known people to put as many as 12.
> How big a boat are you talking about ?


Its a 16 footer. The only place I need to do is the top of the sides. The bow is enclosed and needs a little attention but most of the problem areas are from the stern up about 4 feet... its only bout 10 inches wide at the widest part.. The top layer is peeling off, so I want to take off the rest of what is peeling and put something on it that will look good and protect it.

The seats need some attention as well, but they are not bad at all, want to take care of the topsides first.


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## 230 Cobia (Mar 25, 2008)

Is it the clear coat thats peeling off ? if so sand down to the wood and refinish with poly urithane use the solvent based works better as far as protecting the wood but the uv will effect it over time they make an acrlic version (aqua plastic) that works well as a top coat for uv protection


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

230 Cobia said:


> Is it the clear coat thats peeling off ? if so sand down to the wood and refinish with poly urithane use the solvent based works better as far as protecting the wood but the uv will effect it over time they make an acrlic version (aqua plastic) that works well as a top coat for uv protection



No, its actually the top layer of wood. I call it veneer, but in all actuality, I believe the top is made of plywood, and the top layer of the plywood is coming off. Its very thin, but it is buckling and peeling.... just looks ratty.. I guess its possible that if I peel that top layer off, and sand the next layer, I might not have to replace anything, just seal it up and make it shiny again.. but I dont know anything about wood so its all new to me.....


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## Hovel (Feb 21, 2012)

You may be able to get away with peeling off the top ply and refinishing the ply below as you mentioned. You may find that the cosmetics of the ply below are not good in which case you might just sand and paint or you could veneer with something like 1/16" luan door skin. Regardless, un-painted wood should be sealed with an epoxy like West System and then varnished for the UV protection. My personal preference is Z-Spar Captain's varnish. I've also seen decks done with that stuff they used to put on the side of station wagons. I'll never forget asking the owner what kind of wood is that and he said "Country Squire".


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## Nat (Oct 10, 2007)

grind off the delaminated layers with a side grinder using a 4 "paint and rust remover wheel
then you will have to rebuild it with epoxy and filler. then sand and primer and paint

how thick is the plywood ?

I'm in the process of doing this to the floor in a skiff that has 3/4" mahogany plywood

I was told to mix the epoxy and filler lay it in place cover it with saran wrap, and use a straight edge on top of the saran wrap to level the material back to the original thickness

dragg the straight edge across the material just like you would a 2 x 4 across wet concrete

let it dry , pull the saran off, sand it and then use filler and primer to get the surface ready for paint

you can find a videos on the web


if you plan to varnish it with a clear finish again

you will need to more advise from someone else !


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

Nat said:


> grind off the delaminated layers with a side grinder using a 4 "paint and rust remover wheel
> then you will have to rebuild it with epoxy and filler. then sand and primer and paint
> 
> how thick is the plywood ?
> ...


Thanks! That some good information. I do plan on varnishing it with a clear finish again cause I like the look of it now....


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## Nat (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm in the process of striping the paint off this 1970 stauter built

use eye protection and a dust mask !


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## X-Shark (Oct 3, 2007)

If it is plywood and the top veneer is buckling. The wood will need to be replaced IF you want a natural wood finish. Because the veneer is buckling, the wood id compromised.

These Flagpoles I do are sealed with epoxy and then sprayed with clear Awlgrip.






































If the material is Fir plywood, which is the most common [around here] It will "Check" if just coated with epoxy. It must have at least a light layer of fiberglass to stop the checking. Okoume or Meranti don't have this problem, but are still susceptible to ding damage without a protective covering.

If you look at the field area [BLACK] you will see what I'm talking about. This is AB Fir Marine with a epoxy coating and then primed with Awlgrip 545 epoxy primer. It was then Top coated with PPG Concept.






































While it would appear to the average person that the paint is just flaking of here....and it is, the reason behind it is that the substrate [plywood] is moving around. Nothing will stick if the substrate is allowed to move. It just becomes a constant battle of endless maintenance.

On another note.....Nat is redoing a Stauter Built that made me think of this. I saw one once that was in bad shape. The owner thought it would be faster to strip the old paint by sandblasting. He ruined the boat.

Sandblasting of wood will remove the softer wood and leave the harder wood. It's the nature of how a tree grows. This resulted in a surface that had a very deep grain. The only way to get rid of that is by running the board thru a planer. Problem is the board must be laid flat and not attached to the boat. The whole boat was like that.


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## Safari III (May 24, 2012)

Breeze said:


> What is it that you put on a wood boat to give it that nice glassy shine and protect the wood?


I have a lot of experience with wooden boats. I own a 48' and a 16' Stauter. West system 2 part epoxy is the way to go. For about $130 you can pick up a gallon of the resin, a quart of hardener and the pumps that make it very simple to mix. You can buy it at West Marine or shop around and you might find it cheaper. It’s very simply to use and once you start using it you’ll be repairing all kinds of other things like lawn tools, furniture etc… It’s not just for wood but will work on fiberglass and a lot of other materials. There are all sorts of fillers you can add to suit any project or repair you have. In my Stauter the wood was a little soft in the floor and I went right over it with epoxy. As long as it is clean and dry you can paint the epoxy right over it. Once it dries it will be as hard as Chinese arithmetic. You can then stain it however you like. If I remember correctly Stauter uses jack tar varnish by BLP paints in Mobile. Go to this link and you can download all the info you need on the epoxy. They also have some videos on different repair techniques. Hope this helps. Good luck with your project.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/


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## Nat (Oct 10, 2007)

XShark

this stauter is like (high and low grain fir plywood)that before stripping the paint

the hard grain in the fir plywood is tall and the soft grain is short, but the plywood does not have checks. the hull sides are fir 3/8" and the hull bottom is mahogany 
buit in 1970

For painting purposes, from what I understand this can be filled and sanded with hours and hours of work. Or for an old fishing skiff, paint with flat paint or low gloss so it doesn't show

it was recomended to me to fair the hull sides with watertite filler and paint with a 2 part epoxy paint interlux 2000E

the hull bottom on this old stauter is in very good condition, I think it's 9 or 12 ply 3/4"

the one delaminated spot in the floor was about 20"x20" in the stern near the plug hole where water sat in the boat. It was delaminated about 3 plys deep.
I ground it out and planr to fill it with epoxy.

at first I tried to strip the paint with a heat gun, but the scarper was also gouging the plywood,,,,,,so I took to the side grinder and try real hard to use a light touch


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## Nat (Oct 10, 2007)




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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

What is the difference between using the west system and the bondo fibreglass resin jelly? I read up on the jelly stuff and it says it seals up wood.... are they basically the same or is there a big difference?


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

I believe the west system is epoxy which is much better at adhering to wood. Back when, a lot of people made wood boat with fiberglass had problems with the polyester resins delaminating from the wood. It takes a lot better preparation for the polyester resins to stick to wood than does the epoxy resin. I'm not expert but this is what I have gleaned from research i have done.


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## X-Shark (Oct 3, 2007)

> West system 2 part epoxy is the way to go.


Most people start with "West System". Then they go to another brand of epoxy boat resign. West System is Way to high. $$$$.

I use US Compsites 2 to 1.




> What is the difference between using the west system and the bondo fibreglass resin jelly? I read up on the jelly stuff and it says it seals up wood.... are they basically the same or is there a big difference?


2 totally different animals. That bondo brand is a Finish Polyester resign. It has wax in it. That is what makes it a Finish resign.

West system get's a Amine Blush on it and must be removed.


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

The amine blush from the epoxy products is washed of with soap and water. Acetone is not supposed to be able to cut it but the soap and water does. After clearing the blush from epoxy, you'll need to prime and paint it to keep UV rays from messing up the epoxy. Not sure but it may be just a clouding of the epoxy but I never got to far into the results of not painting or gel coating over the epoxy. Gel coating over epoxy can be done if you prepare the surface right. (according to the makers of west systems epoxy products)


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## X-Shark (Oct 3, 2007)

Yes it can...System 3 makes a epoxy specific for that.

I just don't mess with gellcoat. Everything gets Awlgrip on it.

Warm to Hot water and soap with a scotchpad works best on removing Amine Blush, but if you can use a epoxy that doesn't have a Amine blush your better off.


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

I thought that the amine blush was just a product of the two part liquid epoxy's. Am I mistaken?


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

X-Shark said:


> Most people start with "West System". Then they go to another brand of epoxy boat resign. West System is Way to high. $$$$.
> 
> I use US Compsites 2 to 1.
> 
> ...


Where do you get the US Compsites 2 to 1? I probably only need about a quart of the stuff....

So what is the main reason not to use the bondo stuff? Even though it has wax in it, you can still paint over it, or in my case I will be using varnish cause I want to keep that nice wood look.... sounds like the West System is more work with that Amine Blush....


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## X-Shark (Oct 3, 2007)

Well You get it from US Composites. 

http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html

I can probelly sell you a quart and a half.

The wax MUST be removed from the polyester resign too.


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

X-Shark said:


> Well You get it from US Composites.
> 
> http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html
> 
> ...


And the epoxy has mush better adhesion qualities.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

X-Shark said:


> Well You get it from US Composites.
> 
> http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html
> 
> ...


So what exactly would I need to order? Which hardener, any fillers, etc.... and how much would you want for your quart and a half?


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## X-Shark (Oct 3, 2007)

$35 for the qt & 1/2qt of hardner. You bring the containers.

I have anything else here that you may need also. Microballons, Cabisol, fiberglass and some core material all for small projects.


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## Safari III (May 24, 2012)

X-Shark said:


> $35 for the qt & 1/2qt of hardner. You bring the containers.
> 
> I have anything else here that you may need also. Microballons, Cabisol, fiberglass and some core material all for small projects.


Sounds like this may suit your needs. I met a couple of guys over at the Perdido wooden boat show last month and they were telling me about a different epoxy they used that was less than half the cost and just a good. I know there are a bunch of different manufacturers. I guess the main reason that I have stuck with the West system is just the convenience factor of being able to get it when I need it without waiting. One of the major pro of using the epoxy over the fiberglass bondo product is that there are many different additives you can get for making filets to fairing out blemishes plus you can use it like a clear coat to seal up almost anything. No matter what you use you'll still have to prep the surface for painting or applying gel coat. Sounds like X-shark can help you get you familiar on some of the different products.

X-Shark, are you a distributer? I will be in the market for the supplies to re-glass my cockpit after snapper season. I also want to put a pilot house on my 48 and am thinking of using nida-core or G10 for the structure.


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

Mar-Pro from PBS Boat store, http://www.pbsboatstore.com/marpro-epoxy-resin.htm , is what I get and it is available in whatever size you should need. They are located at 3301 W. Navy Blvd and seem to be good people to deal with. There was 1 young guy there one time that didn't seem very knowledgeable but the girl aand the older guy were very helpfull. The younger guy may not work there because I only saw him once and I've been there three or four times this year.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

DTFuqua said:


> Mar-Pro from PBS Boat store, http://www.pbsboatstore.com/marpro-epoxy-resin.htm , is what I get and it is available in whatever size you should need. They are located at 3301 W. Navy Blvd and seem to be good people to deal with. There was 1 young guy there one time that didn't seem very knowledgeable but the girl aand the older guy were very helpfull. The younger guy may not work there because I only saw him once and I've been there three or four times this year.


I went PBS Wednesday looking around. guy walked out from the back telling the woman in back he was leaving and walked right by us. I was there for bout 10 mins and made enough noise that it should have been known I was there. No one came out to ask if they could help us or anything...... guess it was free day... should have just got what I needed and walked out but am too honest to do that.... 

Anyways, they have great prices but their customer service did not impress me.. never did get any help.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

So let me get this straight... I been reading up on wooden boat websites and most people that build wooden boats use fibreglass cloth with their resin... but for what I am doing, I just mix the epoxy resin and put it right on the wood, letting it soak in, then a couple more coats to build it up a bit and smooth it out, no cloth, right???


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

Yea That must have been the guy that I met the first time i went there. I have no idea about the circumstances of the proprietorship but the older guy and the good looking girl were generally pretty helpful. I have a habit of asking in a not to low voice if anyone is there when I walk into a situation similar to that and will get louder if needed. I do like their prices. And the epoxy has done great injecting into the decks of my catamaran. They were as spongy as a mattress before but solid as a rock now


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

Breeze said:


> So let me get this straight... I been reading up on wooden boat websites and most people that build wooden boats use fibreglass cloth with their resin... but for what I am doing, I just mix the epoxy resin and put it right on the wood, letting it soak in, then a couple more coats to build it up a bit and smooth it out, no cloth, right???



Anyone clear this question up for me?


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## DTFuqua (Jan 30, 2012)

Most of the epoxy resin boats just use the fiberglass for reinforcing. Some will cover the bottom with glass and a very few will cover the entire boat with glass. The reinforcing type uses glass at the chimes, butt joints. stems and other transition points. I know this isn't a complete description but I'm not much of a communicator.


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## kanaka (Oct 3, 2007)

Sounds like you just need to epoxy it, no glass needed. Get a metal bondo spreader, round the ends slightly. Pour some of the mixed epoxy or brush if its a vertical surface and spread the epoxy evenly using pressure on the spreader. What you're doing is forcing the epoxy into the wood and letting the air out. You'll be seeing little air bubbles as your doing this, that's good. If you leave the epoxy on thick, the air can't escape. Remember, you're trying to impregnate the wood with epoxy, not coat it.
When done on the 1st pass, the wood should look "dry". Repeat till you have at least 3 coats. This can be accomplished with 1 mixed batch, no need for the epoxy to set up between coats.
If you were closer, I'd lend you a book I have, "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction".


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

kanaka said:


> Sounds like you just need to epoxy it, no glass needed. Get a metal bondo spreader, round the ends slightly. Pour some of the mixed epoxy or brush if its a vertical surface and spread the epoxy evenly using pressure on the spreader. What you're doing is forcing the epoxy into the wood and letting the air out. You'll be seeing little air bubbles as your doing this, that's good. If you leave the epoxy on thick, the air can't escape. Remember, you're trying to impregnate the wood with epoxy, not coat it.
> When done on the 1st pass, the wood should look "dry". Repeat till you have at least 3 coats. This can be accomplished with 1 mixed batch, no need for the epoxy to set up between coats.
> If you were closer, I'd lend you a book I have, "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction".



Thanks! Appreciate the info.


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## IrishBlessing (May 13, 2012)

Z-spar Captain's Varnish. It is worth it. Take your time. I use 220 between coats. The amount of coats depends on how exposed to the weather it will be. If constantly I would say several coats.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

IrishBlessing said:


> Z-spar Captain's Varnish. It is worth it. Take your time. I use 220 between coats. The amount of coats depends on how exposed to the weather it will be. If constantly I would say several coats.



I was going to use varnish over top the epoxy.... are you saying to use varnish instead of the epoxy? Will it seal the wood to prevent water and de-lamination?


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## kanaka (Oct 3, 2007)

Don't remember if it was mentioned to you but epoxy is NOT UV resistant. It has to be topcoated with a paint or varnish. 

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/varnish-over-epoxy/
http://www.epoxyworks.com/

The best thing about using it is that you can keep putting it on layer after layer WITHOUT having to sand for adhesion if done within 48 hrs. Here's what you can pull off with a minimum of sanding if you plan ahead. All wood is coated on all sides, that's a fiberglass hull with the wood bonded to it.




































http://www.epoxyworks.com/


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

Yea, I was told that I need to put a paint or varnish over the epoxy.. was planning on using varnish. But was wondering if IrishBlessing was saying to use varnish instead of epoxy...


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## kanaka (Oct 3, 2007)

If you're having delamination problems, you have to get the wood bonded back together to stop the problem. Then get it pretty.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

kanaka said:


> If you're having delamination problems, you have to get the wood bonded back together to stop the problem. Then get it pretty.


Okay, so I am going the right direction then...... apply epoxy first, then topcoat it with varnish.... just got to make sure I get the right varnish to match the rest of the boat.... but thats not a big deal....


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## kanaka (Oct 3, 2007)

Be aware when you mix a batch of epoxy, the more in the container, the faster it cooks off. Do in small batches or put in a tin foil pie pan to dissipate the heat/chemical reaction. Get lots of chip brushes but make sure you comb em to get out the loose hairs. The finished product might look like a cat rolled in it if you don't do that.
I used plastic drink cups for mixing containers, got "popsicle" sticks for stirrers from craft section at wally world. Have a roll of paper towels for clean up handy. Lacquer thinner helps whit that. Good luck and don't catch anything on fire!!!


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