# Court Rules Gulf Red Snapper Mgmt Illegal



## All Salt

Go to al.com and read the federal judge ruling on Red Snapper Management

Not sure how to post the link


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## Mac1528

Here ya go:

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/04/court_rules_gulf_red_snapper_m.html#incart_river_default


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## aroundthehorn

Smackdown. FWIW, some folks are getting really irritated with the CCA, too.


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## Gator McKlusky

Ruling is sure to ensure that there is little to no recreational 
snapper season in the Gulf from next year on... 
---------------
The court agreed that NMFS violated Magnuson-Stevens by failing to implement sufficient accountability measures to ensure that the recreational fishing sector adhered to its annual fishing quota.
The decision also said that the lack of those measures caused a reallocation of the red snapper catch from the commercial sector to the recreational sector in violation of the law.


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## aroundthehorn

Gator McKlusky said:


> Ruling is sure to ensure that there is little to no recreational
> snapper season in the Gulf from next year on...
> ---------------
> The court agreed that NMFS violated Magnuson-Stevens by failing to implement sufficient accountability measures to ensure that the recreational fishing sector adhered to its annual fishing quota.
> The decision also said that the lack of those measures caused a reallocation of the red snapper catch from the commercial sector to the recreational sector in violation of the law.


The judge was rather irritated.

Read the opinions of David Sikes or Charlie Witek.


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## Fairwaterfishing

Gator McKlusky said:


> Ruling is sure to ensure that there is little to no recreational
> snapper season in the Gulf from next year on...
> ---------------
> The court agreed that NMFS violated Magnuson-Stevens by failing to implement sufficient accountability measures to ensure that the recreational fishing sector adhered to its annual fishing quota.
> The decision also said that the lack of those measures caused a reallocation of the red snapper catch from the commercial sector to the recreational sector in violation of the law.


Actually I feel it will ensure that the NMFS will have to fix a broken fisheries management system in place, if not they will be sued again and again lose.

Its past time to count every red snapper caught in the gulf. Im very tired of them telling us what we caught through surveys, and formulas.


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## aroundthehorn

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Actually I feel it will ensure that the NMFS will have to fix a broken fisheries management system in place, if not they will be sued again and again lose.
> 
> Its past time to count every red snapper caught in the gulf. Im very tired of them telling us what we caught through surveys, and formulas.


Get ready...haha.


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## tbaxl

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Actually I feel it will ensure that the NMFS will have to fix a broken fisheries management system in place, if not they will be sued again and again lose.
> 
> Its past time to count every red snapper caught in the gulf. Im very tired of them telling us what we caught through surveys, and formulas.


I have no problem with counting each and every one caught, my question is why report pounds when our limit is numerical. I would probably be embarrassed to report the poundage of my fish anyway.


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## Play'N Hooky Too

How would the counting be done?

Will they be setting up checkpoints at each pass coming in from the Gulf? You know the cost for those could easily be off-set by the tickets issued for "incidental infractions" discovered while they were counting red snapper.:whistling:


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## aroundthehorn

Play'N Hooky said:


> How would the counting be done?
> 
> Will they be setting up checkpoints at each pass coming in from the Gulf? You know the cost for those could easily be off-set by the tickets issued for "incidental infractions" discovered while they were counting red snapper.:whistling:


Tag system or the proposed offshore reef permit system. That's just a guess. I would also guess that a setup like that would make for a much more flexible system.


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## lastcast

Then some Asshat gets caught with 6000#s out of season. How many more were missed? That shouldn't throw these numbers off much, would it?


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## Kim

I'm all for an accountability system for recreational anglers. It would be ideal to have a means to file online with FWC (our license source) and they could compile total information for the state and file it with the GOM fisheries council who in turn would file with NOAA. I don't think it would be a big deal to fill out a monthly online form. 

The commercial sector has a pretty good accountability system in place except for when they try to sneak the occasional load of fish in. You would think that they would pretty closely abide by the TAC allotted to them out of a public resource and if they didn't, then they would be penalized. Well that just isn't the case, check out the following link and see that the commercial sector habitually over fishes their TAC and you can track the decline of fish stocks with the same link by seeing the decreases in annual catches while at the same time the TAC is never reduced until the fish stock becomes unsustainable.

http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/sustainab...mmercial_gulf/reef_fish_historical/index.html


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## aroundthehorn

Kim said:


> I'm all for an accountability system for recreational anglers. It would be ideal to have a means to file online with FWC (our license source) and they could compile total information for the state and file it with the GOM fisheries council who in turn would file with NOAA. I don't think it would be a big deal to fill out a monthly online form.
> 
> The commercial sector has a pretty good accountability system in place except for when they try to sneak the occasional load of fish in. You would think that they would pretty closely abide by the TAC allotted to them out of a public resource and if they didn't, then they would be penalized. Well that just isn't the case, check out the following link and see that the commercial sector habitually over fishes their TAC and you can track the decline of fish stocks with the same link by seeing the decreases in annual catches while at the same time the TAC is never reduced until the fish stock becomes unsustainable.
> 
> http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/sustainab...mmercial_gulf/reef_fish_historical/index.html


Seem like they do pretty well, actually, and that wasn't the issue re: the red snapper decision.


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## Kim

The issue is an issue because the commercial sector filed suit basically against recreational anglers for over fishing red snapper. The NOAA preliminary report shows that the commercial sector appears to have overfished red snapper by at least 12%. I don't see where they filed a suit against NOAA because they failed to regulate the commercial sector from overfishing the same fish they filed suit againt NOAA claiming that the recreational sector over fished red snapper. To top it off it just a guess what the recreational sector caught. Look at the link and at red snapper.

http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/sustainable_fisheries/acl_monitoring/commercial_sa/historical/index.html


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## Gator McKlusky

Ok I will bite on this thread and state anybody that thinks the outcome of the management changes that will be instituted in federal waters as a result of the judge's ruling will result in a longer season or more fish for private boat owning snapper fisherman is delusional and that is all I will say.


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## Fairwaterfishing

Gator McKlusky said:


> Ok I will bite on this thread and state anybody that thinks the outcome of the management changes that will be instituted in federal waters as a result of the judge's ruling will result in a longer season or more fish for private boat owning snapper fisherman is delusional and that is all I will say.



Under current management practices with 5.5 million pounds to catch we are close to a full closer. So yea I can see where it could get better.


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## Tom Hilton

Looks like the Alabama fisheries managers were taking notes when I presented the OFS Permit Plan; http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/03/in_the_anme_of_better_data_fis.html

Mandatory reporting via smart phone app or 1-800 number gives MUCH better representation of effort/landings and guess what? It doesn't require privatization of the fish through Catch Shares / Sector Separation / Fish Tags / Recreational IFQs / Fishing Cooperatives.

Given the limited size of Alabama's coastline combined with the substantial historic take, it is a no-brainer to implement this type of data collection program.


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## AndyS

Mac1528 said:


> Here ya go:
> 
> http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/04/court_rules_gulf_red_snapper_m.html#incart_river_default


From the article: 
" _... A group of 21 commercial fishermen from all Gulf Coast states filed the lawsuit against ..._ " 

Well, ya know what? I'd like to know *just who these "21 commercial fishermen" are *who filed this suit & meet up with one or more of 'em sometime to ask 'em just how it is they figger they got a right to so much as even one more Red Snapper as I do just 'cause they paid for a permit that allows them to sell the ones they catch to somebody else? (I wonder if their names & addresses are published anywhere - maybe about 200 recreational fisherman need to show up at each of their houses to ask 'em about it?)

I'm kinda new to the coast here, undoubtedly somewhat ignorant of the politics, and comin' from a freshwater background. But I am used to regulations regarding management of such species as Largemouth Bass & certain other tasty regulated fish ... and you don't see anybody getting special catch privileges so they can sell those fish.

If there's not enough of 'em ... nobody should be allowed to catch 'em to sell. Ya can't sell wild-shot venison.

And I'm sorry. I'm no scientist, but I just find it hard to believe with the short recreational season; 2 fish per day limit; weather considerations; the price of gas; and the fact most rec fishermen have day jobs limiting the days they can go out; that recreational fishing has much impact on the Red Snapper population at all (charter/taxi boats excepted.) Maybe they need to have the Lionfish reporting their "catch" of baby Snappers so they can get more accurate numbers .... via their smartphones.





.


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## Tom Hilton

The "21 commercial fishermen" were just a front - the real force behind it is The Environmental Defense Fund - EDF created and funds today The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholder's Alliance, The Charter Fisherman's Association, The Gulf Fishermen's Association, Share The Gulf.org, etc. etc. Members of ALL of those organizations will be in ofrce this week at the Gulf Council meeting on EDF's dime.

It's ALL about creating revenue streams from what we ALL own - OUR fish, for their personal profit - nothing more, nothing less. Conservation and "accountability" have absolutely nothing to do with it.


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## Realtor

my head hurts (still)


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## Deeplines

Don't worry Andy S, I think there are only 3 scientist on here but more think they are. LOL!!!

I can't wait on the tag system. All these 8lb avg snapper that we are catching now will suddenly drop to 4.5 lbs. WHY? Well so they can sell more tags and make more money of course before we go over our allotted catch.


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## aroundthehorn

Realtor said:


> my head hurts (still)


You a Kentucky fan or something?


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## All Salt

*11 Day Season 2014*

Al.com article 04-08-2014

Gulf of Mexico Council Approves "Emergency" 11 Day season for 2014 with a full Council vote on Thursday.


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## jgraham154

What a joke, nothing like paying for a boat all year, renting a condo for a month and then they slap an eleven day season down your throat because some people feel they have more rights to a damn fish than others.. I am pissed


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## All Salt

What a mess for those who made reservations for the end of June to do their Snapper fishing.


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## WhackUmStackUm

Looks like it this is going to be a fight to the death...

Death of the red snapper fishery that is.


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## All Salt

Need a couple hundred people from the "Recreational Sect" to be there for the full council vote on Thursday


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## johnf

So, how does this affect me?

Can I go to a rig and catch Snapper?

If I go on a charter am I better off?


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## jgraham154

I hope the hell I pay a charter boat to take me fishing. If it comes to that I'll just quit fishing


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## chad403

Does anyone find it odd that most your snapper are caught between panama city and Texas and that 23 plus commerical fishermen are essentially dictating the fishery. Pay the commercial fishermen not to fish like the government pays farmers not to plant and call it a day. The past two years we had maybe 15 days of good weather to actually fish. There is no way you can convince me that the the GOM is over fished.


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## chad403

Charter boats are not commercial..


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## Chapman5011

Play'N Hooky said:


> How would the counting be done?
> 
> Will they be setting up checkpoints at each pass coming in from the Gulf? You know the cost for those could easily be off-set by the tickets issued for "incidental infractions" discovered while they were counting red snapper.:whistling:


I dont see how there could be any type of correct system. If they try stopping every boat coming in the pass, it would lead to damage of person owned vessels, it would create more of a unsafe situation for the enforcement and would probably get to be a problem with the men and women trying to do their job being put in a bad situation getting reemed daily for checking everyones vessel. I know I will give them my 2 cents worth. But I'm always legal with the fish in my boat, and we probably will not even waste our time snapper fishing. 

Plus they would get to where they really weren't looking for snapper anymore and start looking for anything else that could bring in revenue. The government has ruined this great fishery. Just like they have ruined everything else.
Our government officials should be ashamed of what they've done. They have ruined fishing just like they have ruined the american working man by giving benefits to not work.


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## The LaJess II

Louisiana Senator last year started a bill to make red snapper illegal to import in his state. Link below for article from last May. He’s probably really going to push for it now. 

If all the States would follow it might stop some of this madness. Let the commercial fishermen figure out how they going to get their catch out of the Gulf. 

http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20130508/ARTICLES/130509558?p=1&tc=pg


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## SonShine Fishing

Tom Hilton said:


> The "21 commercial fishermen" were just a front - the real force behind it is The Environmental Defense Fund - EDF created and funds today The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholder's Alliance, The Charter Fisherman's Association, The Gulf Fishermen's Association, Share The Gulf.org, etc. etc. Members of ALL of those organizations will be in ofrce this week at the Gulf Council meeting on EDF's dime.
> 
> It's ALL about creating revenue streams from what we ALL own - OUR fish, for their personal profit - nothing more, nothing less. Conservation and "accountability" have absolutely nothing to do with it.


It's about a handful of investors who have bought up IFQs and are leasing them back to fisherman. The fisherman take all the risks and the investors make all the money off of our resources. The system needs to be changed so that an IFQ owner must be aboard the vessel when the fish are caught just as recreational fisherman must have their license and be on the boat to bring in their personal limit.


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## johnf

Chapman5011 said:


> I dont see how there could be any type of correct system. If they try stopping every boat coming in the pass, it would lead to damage of person owned vessels, it would create more of a unsafe situation for the enforcement and would probably get to be a problem with the men and women trying to do their job being put in a bad situation getting reemed daily for checking everyones vessel. I know I will give them my 2 cents worth. But I'm always legal with the fish in my boat, and we probably will not even waste our time snapper fishing.
> 
> Plus they would get to where they really weren't looking for snapper anymore and start looking for anything else that could bring in revenue. The government has ruined this great fishery. Just like they have ruined everything else.
> Our government officials should be ashamed of what they've done. They have ruined fishing just like they have ruined the american working man by giving benefits to not work.


How can that be legal under the 4th Amendment? I realize it's been going on for years, but how is fish and game immune from an illegal search without a warrant? Are we not as free men presumed innocent unless proven guilty? Is it somehow legitimate probable cause to search a boat just because the boat is in the water?

What gives any Fish and Game officer the right to ignore our constitution?


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## AndyS

johnf said:


> How can that be legal under the 4th Amendment? I realize it's been going on for years, but how is fish and game immune from an illegal search without a warrant? Are we not as free men presumed innocent unless proven guilty? Is it somehow legitimate probable cause to search a boat just because the boat is in the water?
> 
> What gives any Fish and Game officer the right to ignore our constitution?


We went through this in a thread awhile back ... with court cases cited. The courts, it seems have somehow managed to have carved out certain exceptions to the 4th Amendment when it comes to The King's Deer.

You can google for further information on these "exceptions" ... but I recommend you take your blood pressure medicine first.


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## jordars

johnf said:


> How can that be legal under the 4th Amendment? I realize it's been going on for years, but how is fish and game immune from an illegal search without a warrant? Are we not as free men presumed innocent unless proven guilty? Is it somehow legitimate probable cause to search a boat just because the boat is in the water?
> 
> What gives any Fish and Game officer the right to ignore our constitution?


I would imagine having fishing equipment (rods, reels, etc) is enough for probable cause.


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## johnf

That's like saying because I have a rifle in my car I must have just robbed a liquor store or because I've got a kid in my car I must be a pedophile. 

I don't buy that.


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## MrFish

There have been numerous threads about this. I don't remember the reason, but if you want you can search for it. Or you can wait until they stop you and deny them. Post up here what happens.


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## Mac1528

Because I have visible fishing equipment, gives them just cause to maybe ask for a current license! But even I question that if you are not seen in the act of fishing or posses fish. Got any wardens on here that can give a statute? As if there is not!

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## Play'N Hooky Too

Chapman5011 said:


> ...Plus they would get to where they really weren't looking for snapper anymore and start looking for anything else that could bring in revenue.....


 That's my point. Any system to count every single snapper would be a logistical nightmare for the agency and a major pain in the butt for the rest of us. Even though I couldn't give two flips about red snapper, I would still be subject to the check.

To generate even more revenue they could put up bleachers at the checkpoints where you could sit, drink beer, and watch people argue with the FWC officers about how to tell the difference between lesser and greater amberjack, total length vs. fork length, how their 1 year old nephew really was able to reel in that 40 lb cobia by himself, etc..


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## 2RC's II

Well I have read all this BS from everyone and it's the same thing I have been reading for the past...... I don't know how many years. Point is no one is contacting their Congressmen and raising H...! 21 people holding us hostage. Ya'll keep voting the same people in office and it stays the same. It's our fault face it. 21 people holding the State hostage. Really. Pick up the phone and call! Dang!


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## kanaka

Well, here's what the Environmental Defense Fund has to say about red snapper.
LISTEN to where the snapper should come from. WTF????


http://www.weather.com/video/sponso...-to-avoid-46725?collid=/news/video-of-the-day


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## whome

:whistling:


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## Butler879

I hope it backfires and they figure out the recreational sector has been catching significantly less and they raise the quota.


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## Burnt Drag

This dik move is nothing more than a ploy to scare the CFH (charter for hire) into swallowing the poison sector seperation pill. If we go dumbass and eat the poison, we'll be lead around like a blind goat into anything these wackos can dream up. I say, 
screw red snapper. I don't care. They don't make or break me or my customers. One can just imagine the difference in rules that my friends who fish follow and the rules I'll be forced to follow. Enjoy the season people... don't let these deluded tyranical assholes ruin your time on the water.


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## Fairwaterfishing

Burnt Drag said:


> This dik move is nothing more than a ploy to scare the CFH (charter for hire) into swallowing the poison sector seperation pill. If we go dumbass and eat the poison, we'll be lead around like a blind goat into anything these wackos can dream up. I say,
> screw red snapper. I don't care. They don't make or break me or my customers. One can just imagine the difference in rules that my friends who fish follow and the rules I'll be forced to follow. Enjoy the season people... don't let these deluded tyranical assholes ruin your time on the water.


Well have fun with your 0 federal day season next year. Should be no problem since you don't care. On the other hand we will be just fine over here.


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## Gator McKlusky

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Well have fun with your 0 federal day season next year. Should be no problem since you don't care. On the other hand we will be just fine over here.


That's a dik statement.


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## Burnt Drag

Fair, I spend most of the season NOT catching red snapper ..on trips. I've been fine. I run many more "non" red snapper trips than snapper trips. I don't base my economy on them as much as that is what they'd like. Screw em... they can have the red beast. All they want is a VMS on my boat and for me to join their choir... like you have.


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## Gator McKlusky

Personally I'm afraid to go to anymore fishery meetings. In my opinion you never know when Dr. Crabtee is going to reach out and grab one of the charter fisherman association sector separators and plant a big kiss then swap spit with him. Turn my stomach and I might get sick in front of everyone.


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## Burnt Drag

Gator McKlusky said:


> Personally I'm afraid to go to anymore fishery meetings. In my opinion you never know when Dr. Crabtee is going to reach out and grab one of the charter fisherman association sector separators and plant a big kiss then swap spit with him. Turn my stomach and I might get sick in front of everyone.


Gator, you gotta toughen up... Roy's a good lookin guy! LOL!! :whistling:


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## Fairwaterfishing

Burnt Drag said:


> Fair, I spend most of the season NOT catching red snapper ..on trips. I've been fine. I run many more "non" red snapper trips than snapper trips. I don't base my economy on them as much as that is what they'd like. Screw em... they can have the red beast. All they want is a VMS on my boat and for me to join their choir... like you have.


Thats cool, I'm just not near retirement anytime soon so will be looking for that flexible system that lets me catch red snapper all year. Have fun.


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## Burnt Drag

So, Fair... lets get this straight. You're ok with an 11 day season for the pleebs, but you want a system that allows you to catch snapper all year long. Oh, the humanity!


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## Fairwaterfishing

No Im for a full accountable and flexible system for everyone. There will be one for the charter for hire and one for the true recs. Since the Recreational guys have no representation at all at the meetings I will have some input on that system too. I plan to have a lot of input in the Charter for Hire since its my livelihood. Yalls way is not working 5.5 million pounds of fish and a 11 day season, the state non-compliance will easily eat up that 11 days and you will have no federal season in 2015. So basically Burnt, if you want to catch snapper next year you will have to pull them permits off.


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## Burnt Drag

It bothers me not at all. Compare the taste of Red Snapper to that of Vermillion and you'd feel the same way. We can give elevator rides to the abundant supply of snapper, then go catch a much tastier fish. I'm over it.


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## Gator McKlusky

Fairwaterfishing said:


> No Im for a full accountable and flexible system for everyone. There will be one for the charter for hire and one for the true recs. Since the Recreational guys have no representation at all at the meetings I will have some input on that system too. I plan to have a lot of input in the Charter for Hire since its my livelihood. Yalls way is not working 5.5 million pounds of fish and a 11 day season, the state non-compliance will easily eat up that 11 days and you will have no federal season in 2015. So basically Burnt, if you want to catch snapper next year you will have to pull them permits off.


Same amount of people same fishery 11 days is 11 days no matter if you fish one a month from Jan - Nov or June 1-11. You must be thinking there is something else.for you all in this....lmao


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## SnapperSlapper

He may say what he wants, but what he wants is a system that lets him and only him land red snapper 365 days a year. And no one else. He wants to be the only game in town. That is the truth, and the reason that some of the charter captains have allied them selves with the environmental groups that are wagging the dog now. It may work, it may not. But either way it will have consequences.


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## Burnt Drag

Also, is it even plausable that we could possibly catch (THE WHOLE FREAKIN REC SECTOR) 5.5 million pounds in 11 days? .. to quote Bill Clinton... "Give me a Break".


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## Fairwaterfishing

Under current management system there will be no federal red snapper season next year under statics quo. I suggest you fellas listen in on the gulf council meeting tomorrow and find out for yourselves whats on the agenda for the future of Charter for Hire industry. If you only had some real representation there, you could change your future too.


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## KingCrab

All about control, U want fish? Pay the Gov for it. Either way they are getting their money. Retail, Commercial, Rec. Pay up.


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## Gator McKlusky

Burnt Drag said:


> Also, is it even plausable that we could possibly catch (THE WHOLE FREAKIN REC SECTOR) 5.5 million pounds in 11 days? .. to quote Bill Clinton... "Give me a Break".


Yeah really $5 gas now 11 days to fish and 2 snapper a day. Back in 2004 what was it 6 monthe and.4 fish per.day. oh yea we are just fishing harder in 2014 with more boats..


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## Gator McKlusky

SnapperSlapper said:


> He may say what he wants, but what he wants is a system that lets him and only him land red snapper 365 days a year. And no one else. He wants to be the only game in town. That is the truth, and the reason that some of the charter captains have allied them selves with the environmental groups that are wagging the dog now. It may work, it may not. But either way it will have consequences.


Exactly. I just wish the sector separators would admit it and say. "We want it all and we are making a run to get it. This is about me and mine." Instead of the b.s. I am for accountability and flexibility. Lmao

At least we.all could respect the wolf of wall street type truth.


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## Fairwaterfishing

Gator McKlusky said:


> Yeah really $5 gas now 11 days to fish and 2 snapper a day. Back in 2004 what was it 6 monthe and.4 fish per.day. oh yea we are just fishing harder in 2014 with more boats..


Na, your just under a fish management plan thats 30 years old that has no accountability measures other than buffers, and paybacks that depends on shorter seasons not to go over. No real catch data…. get it? Its time for a change and a way to count every fish that verifiable.


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## SnapperSlapper

I hope there is no snapper season this year. So that the charter captains that sold their soul to the environmental movement and the NMFS see how well that worked out for them.


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## Gator McKlusky

Things are about to get real up in here. I feel it.


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## Fairwaterfishing

Heres a question for all of you. What do you want? Let me guess the good ole days? Do you really think thats going to happen any time soon, in this world we live in? Might want to educate yourselves on whats really going on in fisheries management and find a way to work within the system, or deal with the consequences of reality. Ever heard the term times are a changing? Well they are, this year it will hit us in the face real hard.


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## SnapperSlapper

Fine, let there be no snapper season. It would be ironic to have the most snapper in the gulf in the 40 years I've been alive, and not be allowed to keep even one on the recreational side. It would be a magical day. 

You guys that have aligned yourselves with the environmental groups and NMFS hoping to get special favor or a few extra days to fish are gonna get stomped on just like the rest of us. Because ultimately they want to shut down all recreational fishing. If you think that being their buddies and doing their bidding now will pay off in the long run.... I guess we will see.


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## Play'N Hooky Too

The reality is that the commercial industries that are dependent on wild-caught stock are going tits up because nature can't product the resource at a commercially sustainable level. They are grabbing at straws and blaming us for their failing businesses. Let them have all the red snapper. It's not going to change the inevitable.

What I don't get is why the CFH guys are so eager to tie off to that sinking ship.


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## sniperpeeps

Amazing how money or the illusion of making more of it can make people act.


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## Fairwaterfishing

sniperpeeps said:


> Amazing how money or the illusion of making more of it can make people act.


I get it. You fish for free huh?


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## Burnt Drag

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I get it. You fish for free huh?


Come on, Fair... Straiten up your tie. Your boots need shining and your brass is dirty. Fall IN!


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## LopeAlong

Jim, things have hit rock bottom and we have no place to go but up. There was ZERO representation for private rec guys. The biggest group in attendance besides the commercial guys was.... AL CFH and we had an agenda and it got met 10-4


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## LopeAlong

I don't see why any of the private guys in FL have a single thing to cry about. You have 56 full days to red snapper fish!


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## johnboatjosh

Play'N Hooky said:


> The reality is that the commercial industries that are dependent on wild-caught stock are going tits up because nature can't product the resource at a commercially sustainable level. They are grabbing at straws and blaming us for their failing businesses. Let them have all the red snapper. It's not going to change the inevitable.
> 
> What I don't get is why the CFH guys are so eager to tie off to that sinking ship.


Now that's a fact, jack!:thumbsup:


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## LopeAlong

Your shipping is sinking while ours has set sail


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## Tom Hilton

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Na, your just under a fish management plan thats 30 years old that has no accountability measures other than buffers, and paybacks that depends on shorter seasons not to go over. No real catch data…. get it? Its time for a change and a way to count every fish that verifiable.


Yep, and we are fishing under a 30 year old allocation % too, but you don't seem to mind that Ard.

We all know it's not about conservation or "accountability" - it's about you getting your hands on your IFQs. There is no need to gift our fish to anyone in order to account for the fish being landed Amigo.

I understand the GC moved forward with the Alabama charterboat EFP today - congratulations. How many fish does your boat get?


----------



## SnapperSlapper

http://orangebeachfishingassociation.com/Page.aspx?page=Officers and Board of Directors

If you want to find the people that want to see recreational fishing for snapper only be allowed on charter boats, here is a good place to start your search.


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## SnapperSlapper

https://m.facebook.com/OrangeBeachF...c=https://www.facebook.com/OrangeBeachFishing

Here is their facebook page.


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## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> Yep, and we are fishing under a 30 year old allocation % too, but you don't seem to mind that Ard.
> 
> We all know it's not about conservation or "accountability" - it's about you getting your hands on your IFQs. There is no need to gift our fish to anyone in order to account for the fish being landed Amigo.
> 
> I understand the GC moved forward with the Alabama charterboat EFP today - congratulations. How many fish does your boat get?


AH HA! You surfaced. Yes we get the pilot program, and I really don't care how many fish I get, haven't really even looked, don't care. Oh and guess what tomorrow they will put on a full bore, gulf wide, IFQ multi-species Charter for Hire program on the docket. It will be no pilot program it will be for real. Oh and they vote on amendment 28 tomorrow too. Hmmm wonder how thats going to go? 

Oh and where were you? Couldn't make it huh? No gas money? Yea before you start I did pay my own way. It took 2 tanks of gas, $100 bucks for the room, and $50 bucks for food and beverages. Oh so did 13 other Alabama CHF guys.

One more thing. Our pilot program was put together by OBFA members and the State of Alabama, Thats it. No EDF. No CFA. You can put that in your pipe and smoke it brother.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

SnapperSlapper said:


> https://m.facebook.com/OrangeBeachF...c=https://www.facebook.com/OrangeBeachFishing
> 
> Here is their facebook page.


Facebook is run by the Orange Beach/Gulf Shores visitor and convention bureau, not us. The first link is outdated, I stepped down from Vice President, just on the board now.


----------



## LopeAlong

He's gonna start. He always does. He's made 2 full posts without spouting EDF. That's some kind of record isn't?

Oh and I was there wearing my black shirt as promised instead of being an internet tough guy


----------



## sniperpeeps

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I get it. You fish for free huh?


No, but I give a shit about every other guy who likes to fish other than myself also.


----------



## Sea Monkey

Wirelessly posted

The OLE My Pie.

Hey, all you CFH Captains. Flashback 10 years ago. While at theMarina talking fishing related issues with other CFH Captains. If someone told you that in ten years you would be fishing under IFQ's in the 2014-15 and beyond. You folks probably would have laughed in their face for saying such nonsense. 
After years of ever tightening regulations and shorter seasons you folks are starting to hurt fanicially, some are anyway. The Federal regulators have squeezed the bit of blood from your soul. Nowadays the CFH have decided that " either get onboard or be left behind". 
Some of you CFH guys have gotten on board withe Federal Govt plan. Knowing that this is the only way I'm going to survive. The Recreational side will soon have IFQ'S also, coming soon the Gulf waters near you.
Now all of the tighter and shorter seasons are all based on "Flawed Data". Get Some!!

"GET'EM OFF THE BOTTOM"


----------



## Play'N Hooky Too

LopeAlong said:


> Your shipping is sinking while ours has set sail


Well bon voyage.:thumbsup: 

Once the recreational fisherman are out of the picture then who will they blame it on then? It'll be all those CFH guys out there injuring the fish and damaging the reefs. The fish will still be getting smaller and they will have to put ever increasing effort (= $$$) into catching enough fish to stay afloat thus driving up the price.

In the mean time, Aunt Mabel from Dearborn, MI who can't tell the difference between Gulf Red Snapper and "Ocean Perch" once it's battered and fried is going to be looking over the menu at the Fish Basket thinking "Ooh Tilapia! That sounds exotic! Plus its $5 cheaper...".


----------



## Gator McKlusky

LopeAlong said:


> He's gonna start. He always does. He's made 2 full posts without spouting EDF. That's some kind of record isn't?
> Oh and I was there wearing my black shirt as promised instead of being an internet tough guy


 
If you think EDF hasn't been paying for motel rooms and trips for their supporters controlling this game you are either ignorant or a liar. 

These two documents will settle that argument FOREVER.


----------



## tbaxl

Burnt Drag said:


> This dik move is nothing more than a ploy to scare the CFH (charter for hire) into swallowing the poison sector seperation pill. If we go dumbass and eat the poison, we'll be lead around like a blind goat into anything these wackos can dream up. I say,
> screw red snapper. I don't care. They don't make or break me or my customers. One can just imagine the difference in rules that my friends who fish follow and the rules I'll be forced to follow. Enjoy the season people... don't let these deluded tyranical assholes ruin your time on the water.


I do not know you, but am glad to see you understand the situation and the system unlike some others on here. Thank you.


----------



## tbaxl

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Thats cool, I'm just not near retirement anytime soon so will be looking for that flexible system that lets me catch red snapper all year. Have fun.


Fair, it is guys like you that lead me to purchase my current and larger boat. I refused to spend my hard earned money with sell outs, yes you have to make a living but at what cost. I no longer need to or desire to charter with the OB boats, and it was cheaper than running my own, but true anglers should stick together and while you probably do not care there are more out there like me.


----------



## Chapman5011

With all this bickering back and forth, I've lost touch with what is even being bitched about. 
What is this going to mean for the recreational personal owned boat fisherman. Do we get a snapper season or not.


----------



## All Salt

Based on the 11 million # combined quota for the 2014-2015 season and 49% allotment for recreational sector (per al.com article) that is 5,390,000#'s of red snapper. If you assume 6 pack boats fishing and avg of 12# per fish and each boat limiting out for the 11 day season that means 3,403 boats are needed to catch the limit for all 11 days to meet the quota. Is that forecast reasonable to assume and is that possible?


----------



## DI 310

All Salt said:


> Based on the 11 million # combined quota for the 2014-2015 season and 49% allotment for recreational sector (per al.com article) that is 5,390,000#'s of red snapper. If you assume 6 pack boats fishing and avg of 12# per fish and each boat limiting out for the 11 day season that means 3,403 boats are needed to catch the limit for all 11 days to meet the quota. Is that forecast reasonable to assume and is that possible?


According to NMFS it is!!- Has been that way since about 2006-Strange, all the years prior to 2006 really no problem.


----------



## spike

I use to charter 2-3 boats per year. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever charter another one. Yes CFH you are feeling good about yourselves today. But, in the long run you are changing peoples feelings about you and your industry, what you are doing today will bite you in the ass. Just watch. As my football coach used to say "YOU MAKE ME WANT TO PUKE!!"


----------



## MrFish

spike said:


> I use to charter 2-3 boats per year. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever charter another one. Yes CFH you are feeling good about yourselves today. But, in the long run you are changing peoples feelings about you and your industry, what you are doing today will bite you in the ass. Just watch. As my football coach used to say "YOU MAKE ME WANT TO PUKE!!"


And this is the tricky part. There are plenty of CFH that are against this snapper grab and will not take any part in it. We shouldn't punish all for the actions of a few. People that book charters need to do some research before booking.


----------



## All Salt

Lobbyist: someone hired by a business or cause to persuade legislators to support that business or cause. Lobbyists get paid to win favor from politicians (councils).

vocabulary.com/dictionary/lobbyist


----------



## tbaxl

How about all you CHF guys in AL that are proud of what is going on, posting the boats you run, we need some help understanding why. I will side with your for making a living and fishing can be a hard way to do it but remember there are way more rec guys on the coast than professionals, and once we get our act together our voice will be heard and our views may widen. I at least respect the CFH guys that give the boat name, do not agree with them on everything but respect them for putting themselves out there and looking out for their families. I am Tim in Tuscaloosa by the way.


----------



## spike

*Snapper*

Sorry, I understand what you are saying but that is not going to happen. Their entire industry is going to be held accountable. Those that don't agree with the direction they have taken had better step up to the plate. All I ever hear at the meetings are CFH's supporting the actions of their group. The group will be held accountable, no way I will try to figure who is for it and who is against it. Yes the 3 boats left in the CFH fleet will do ok but the rest of you had better put your boats up for sell before they are worth no more than fire wood. I have already talked 3 folks out of charters in the the last 10 days. I have a big mouth and I plan to use it :thumbsup:


----------



## Tom Hilton

2006 was the year our fisheries management was hijacked by The Environmental Defense Fund - what a coincidence!


----------



## aroundthehorn

Just set my watch.


----------



## chad403

Can they at least make the season over 5 weekends? That would give 90% of who work monday thru friday a shot of an unchanged season.


----------



## Chris Phillips

According to the geniuses if we did weekends only it would knock it down to about 4 days because of the level of effort.


----------



## MrFish

Not to mention, the short season is for punishment.


----------



## LopeAlong

tbaxl said:


> ... once we get our act together our voice will be heard and our views may widen.


Yup been waiting for that to happen for years now. 

So you think you have the smoking gun with the CFH/EDF? They paid for a whole was of CFH guys to go to DC to spread their views. 

Accountability is coming, for EVERYONE! Tags for recs and IFQ for CFH. Our hope then that the real data will truly help


----------



## All Salt

The inaccurate data is the basis for this whole mess. Along with money.


----------



## LopeAlong

spike said:


> Sorry, I understand what you are saying but that is not going to happen. Their entire industry is going to be held accountable. Those that don't agree with the direction they have taken had better step up to the plate. All I ever hear at the meetings are CFH's supporting the actions of their group. The group will be held accountable, no way I will try to figure who is for it and who is against it. Yes the 3 boats left in the CFH fleet will do ok but the rest of you had better put your boats up for sell before they are worth no more than fire wood. I have already talked 3 folks out of charters in the the last 10 days. I have a big mouth and I plan to use it :thumbsup:


Spike I'm sure your a great guy and you seem very intelligent but do you really think your going to hurt anyone's business by bad mouthing the entire fleet? FYI 100% of Federally permitted AL legitimate charterboats are for this. Every CFH from Port OConnor to Panama City was for this, every commercial fisherman was for this. It was unprecedented unilateral support from everyone. We did not have a single comment that was against our program. Where were you?


----------



## spike

*Snapper*

I understand that all of the CFH are for this. If there are enough of me's out there yes it will hurt. The CFH business is already hurting. There are fewer boats running every year, there willl be fewer this year and there will be fewer next year. The marina's that support the CFH business are in trouble. example: Zeke's Marina in Chapt 11 bankruptcy. There are people like me that are like minded and there are others who have other opinion's, That is fine by me. I am comfortable with my opinion, I don't need everyone to agree with me. But, enough do.:thumbsup:


----------



## spike

By the way Lope, we need to go have a beer sometime. I think our opinions are more inline than it may seem. I'm just looking for a way to get some results and not just bitch and moan...


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## Lyin Too

All this shit is enough to drive me to drinkin! Think I'll go have one and fish when I take a notion.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

spike said:


> By the way Lope, we need to go have a beer sometime. I think our opinions are more inline than it may seem. I'm just looking for a way to get some results and not just bitch and moan...



You did get my PM a week or so ago huh? Pretty accurate?


----------



## spike

*Snapper*

Yes, got it. Hey, I've not won every fight I ever fought but that didn't stop me from trying. I guess I'm not smart enough to give up.


----------



## johnboatjosh

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, seriously. 

The CFH guys that want "accountability" feel that they're being punished for being lumped into the recreational angler group due to the govt. telling us that the rec. anglers consistently harvest more red snapper than we (rec. fisherman) are allotted. So, when we (rec. anglers) are "punished" with shorter seasons for over harvesting snapper, the CFH guys suffer with us. 

In an attempt to curb this, the CFH guys have decided to ask for "accountability" through MORE govt. interference and intervention into the process of deciding how many fish we're allowed to take. 

Through all this, where do you guys feel like this will leave the rec. angler? Or do you care? 

I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I'm seriously trying to make sure I understand what's going on.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

johnboatjosh said:


> I want to make sure I understand this correctly, seriously.
> 
> The CFH guys that want "accountability" feel that they're being punished for being lumped into the recreational angler group due to the govt. telling us that the rec. anglers consistently harvest more red snapper than we (rec. fisherman) are allotted. So, when we (rec. anglers) are "punished" with shorter seasons for over harvesting snapper, the CFH guys suffer with us.
> 
> In an attempt to curb this, the CFH guys have decided to ask for "accountability" through MORE govt. interference and intervention into the process of deciding how many fish we're allowed to take.
> 
> Through all this, where do you guys feel like this will leave the rec. angler? Or do you care?
> 
> I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I'm seriously trying to make sure I understand what's going on.



We are asking them to fix the whole system for us and you. We know what we wanted in our IFQ program, we have been hashing it out for over 5 years on what would suit our business the best. Everyone in the gulf will soon be on an accountable system, then the seasons will come back. We just developed our system ourselves. Who's going to develop yours?


----------



## tbaxl

spike said:


> I understand that all of the CFH are for this. If there are enough of me's out there yes it will hurt. The CFH business is already hurting. There are fewer boats running every year, there willl be fewer this year and there will be fewer next year. The marina's that support the CFH business are in trouble. example: Zeke's Marina in Chapt 11 bankruptcy. There are people like me that are like minded and there are others who have other opinion's, That is fine by me. I am comfortable with my opinion, I don't need everyone to agree with me. But, enough do.:thumbsup:


Agreed, but the local guys like us are not the bread and butter of the CFH industry i would think a large portion comes from out of staters from far away and do not get to boat often. In the grand scheme of thing i really does not matter as RS are just fun to catch like crappie, drop bait reel up, repeat. What gets me is the fact that CFH can not see further down the road than today.


----------



## Telum Pisces

Fairwaterfishing said:


> We are asking them to fix the whole system for us and you. We know what we wanted in our IFQ program, we have been hashing it out for over 5 years on what would suit our business the best. Everyone in the gulf will soon be on an accountable system, then the seasons will come back. We just developed our system ourselves. Who's going to develop yours?


There should be no "us" and "you". You are a taxi driver for "RECREATIONAL" fishermen that keep their catch. You are paid as a taxi driver that knows the best route to get the job done.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Telum Pisces said:


> There should be no "us" and "you". You are a taxi driver for "RECREATIONAL" fishermen that keep their catch. You are paid as a taxi driver that knows the best route to get the job done.


Maybe there should be no us and you but guess what there is. You guys have been lobbying the state to go non-complaint so you can fish and I can not. So you can't have it both ways.


----------



## 2RC's II

I did not waste my time looking at this thread as I have seen the SOS for the last couple years. What I did was call my Congressmans office and tell them if they desire to be elected again fisx this Sh..! I suggest everyone else do too. IMO.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Telum Pisces said:


> There should be no "us" and "you". You are a taxi driver for "RECREATIONAL" fishermen that keep their catch. You are paid as a taxi driver that knows the best route to get the job done.


You never answered the question. Who's going to develop yours? You going to let the State, Federal government, or me? Im submitting plans as we speak to the State of Alabama that will put the recreational guys on a accountable, verifiable plan, to increase season. Its not rocket science, you just have to act and get off the keyboard.


----------



## Telum Pisces

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Maybe there should be no us and you but guess what there is. You guys have been lobbying the state to go non-complaint so you can fish and I can not. So you can't have it both ways.


Blame the feds that put the restrictions on you to where you can't fish state waters with a fed permit.


----------



## Telum Pisces

Fairwaterfishing said:


> You never answered the question. Who's going to develop yours? You going to let the State, Federal government, or me? Im submitting plans as we speak to the State of Alabama that will put the recreational guys on a accountable, verifiable plan, to increase season. Its not rocket science, you just have to act and get off the keyboard.


There does not need to be a big plan. The snapper were just fine before 2006 with the seasons we had then. It was not until EDF and the MS act re authorization changes came into the picture that we got the mess we have now.

What you fail to realize is that there is a bigger picture that these idiots are after. That is complete catch and release in the Gulf. This step that is being pushed now is just one more step closer to that. And you are being used to that end. You just can't see outside your blinders to see that simple fact. When they get what they want, you will be pushed into the lions den with us.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

2RC's II said:


> I did not waste my time looking at this thread as I have seen the SOS for the last couple years. What I did was call my Congressmans office and tell them if they desire to be elected again fisx this Sh..! I suggest everyone else do too. IMO.



When your congressman does a little research on the subject he will see that the NMFS just lost a major lawsuit over non-accountability issues in the fishery and then he will look at our program and find there is nothing he can do. Maybe you should ask him to fix the rest of it because ours is soon to be fixed.


----------



## 2RC's II

Yep. That's what those SOB's are hoping. We will biaaaatch at each other. Call your Fed. Rep.!!


----------



## MrFish

The snapper are as abundant as ever, I believe we all can agree on that. Unfortunately, given how we have traveled down this road with junk science and so on, the only way to counteract that is with REAL numbers. We need actual, bona fide, litmus tested numbers, to tell them that theirs are blatantly wrong. The only way for that, from this point on, is accountability from everyone.


----------



## Telum Pisces

MrFish said:


> The snapper are as abundant as ever, I believe we all can agree on that. Unfortunately, given how we have traveled down this road with junk science and so on, the only way to counteract that is with REAL numbers. We need actual, bona fide, litmus tested numbers, to tell them that theirs are blatantly wrong. The only way for that, from this point on, is accountability from everyone.


Actually, it's more than the junk science. It's the Magnuson–Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Reauthorization Act of 2006 that is the driving factor pushing the regulators to try and reach some mythical balance in the fisheries. The time lines set in this law is a big driving factor as well. 

The combination of junk science and this law are the basis for everything they are doing. When you have groups like EDF pushing for the amendments to the laws to favor their desires, you have the problems.

Again, the snapper where just fine before 2006. It's when people saw a resource and wanted to cash in when the problems started. If it was about the fish, they would end the commercial fishing of said species like they did with redfish.


----------



## MrFish

Telum Pisces said:


> Actually, it's more than the junk science. It's the Magnuson–Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Reauthorization Act of 2006 that is the driving factor pushing the regulators to try and reach some mythical balance in the fisheries. The time lines set in this law is a big driving factor as well.
> 
> The combination of junk science and this law are the basis for everything they are doing. When you have groups like EDF pushing for the amendments to the laws to favor their desires, you have the problems.
> 
> Again, the snapper where just fine before 2006. It's when people saw a resource and wanted to cash in when the problems started. If it was about the fish, they would end the commercial fishing of said species like they did with redfish.


And a lot of people, including the state of Alabama, are pushing for a rewrite of the MS. This rewrite will also extend all gulf states' waters out to a uniform 9 nm.


----------



## Telum Pisces

MrFish said:


> And a lot of people, including the state of Alabama, are pushing for a rewrite of the MS. This rewrite will also extend all gulf states' waters out to a uniform 9 nm.


It's the only thing that will slow this train down and maybe right the ship a little. Everything else is just a band aid fix to silence one group for a little while longer till they can take another step towards the ultimate goal of total catch and release for the recreational angler in the Gulf of Mexico. They want you to go to the store and buy your fish.


----------



## Matt Mcleod

Don't lose hope! 

The people of the state of Louisiana spoke today! We in Florida will have our chance next week! 

Our path to freedom lays in the hands of our state governments!

Support non-compliance! We have never had a bigger opportunity to make a difference than RIGHT NOW!!!


----------



## DI 310

Telum Pisces said:


> There does not need to be a big plan. The snapper were just fine before 2006 with the seasons we had then. It was not until EDF and the MS act re authorization changes came into the picture that we got the mess we have now.
> 
> 
> 
> I think we have a winner!!!!


----------



## tbaxl

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Maybe there should be no us and you but guess what there is. You guys have been lobbying the state to go non-complaint so you can fish and I can not. So you can't have it both ways.


Most guys in Alabama know better than asking for no compliant, our state line is just about useless, that is why AL and MS are stuck with the system. Therefore there is no both ways. I will add that if we had enough mileage i would be all over it.


----------



## MrFish

> our state line is just about useless,


Patience, it takes awhile to move things that have been in place for so long. It's being worked on. The governor signed a bill Wednesday, essentially extending state waters out to 9nm, but now it has to be recognized in Washington. Another reason it would've been nice for Byrne to pick up his predecessor's bill and push it(Gulf Fisheries Fairness Act). Instead, we are looking at a rewrite of the MS.


----------



## sniperpeeps

Captain Ard, a hypothetical question for you. Say next year you guys get your program an allotment for IFQ. But then, Alabama gets their date waters extended and pretty much all states other than Miss are non compliant and have longer snapper season non compliant to the federal season. Do you still think you will get an allotment?


----------



## johnboatjosh

sniperpeeps said:


> Captain Ard, a hypothetical question for you. Say next year you guys get your program an allotment for IFQ. But then, Alabama gets their date waters extended and pretty much all states other than Miss are non compliant and have longer snapper season non compliant to the federal season. Do you still think you will get an allotment?


That's an excellent point. Wouldn't that be a bitch!:whistling:


----------



## biggabuck

Well said telum if the Ars were really over fished like the Reds were years ago. And the govt wanted to save the fish harvest would be stopped altogether. As a rec fisherman I have moved away from the ars as a main catch. It just not worth spending the money for the trip down to catch 2 fish. Pus there are others that are just as good as table fare.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

sniperpeeps said:


> Captain Ard, a hypothetical question for you. Say next year you guys get your program an allotment for IFQ. But then, Alabama gets their date waters extended and pretty much all states other than Miss are non compliant and have longer snapper season non compliant to the federal season. Do you still think you will get an allotment?


I would think so. Just remember if Byrnes Bill catches traction it will change everything. I don't see anyway the feds go with the 9 mile state waters for a few years, I actually believe that they will have an accountable, verifiable system in place for everyone before that.


----------



## Tom Hilton

The problem that the private recs are facing is there is no will at the federal level to provide accountable numbers of how many fishermen are fishing or how many times they fish. Therefore, when they go to fish tags for the private recs (*and that is the Plan, according to EDF*), the number of tags will be based on a predetermined number that they want to print and absolutely nothing to do with historical landings.

I believe there needs to be a mandatory accounting system like what the state of Alabama is implementing *(VERY similar to The OFS Permit Plan)* where they know how many fishermen are fishing out of what port, on what days, and catching how many fish. * This is the FIRST order of business that needs to be done BEFORE going to recreational IFQs or any other form of Catch Shares.*

Perhaps once they have determined viable effort/landings numbers over the next 3 to 4 years, then they may look at implementing fish tags across the board for *ALL* recreational fishermen, regardless of what type of boat they fish on. Why should one angler who fishes on his own boat be required to have a tag and another angler who fishes aboard Ard's boat NOT be required to have a tag? Scott Hickman was on the call-in phone call today and he was praising the idea of fish tags, but I doubt very seriously he was talking about the anglers who fish on *HIS BOAT*. 

No need to gift our Public Trust Resource via IFQs/Catch Shares to a few for-hire captains/corporations for their personal profit when there are better ways to manage our resources.


----------



## FelixH

It really doesn't matter. They have their agenda and will spin the input any way they need to in order to reach the desired output.

If you tell them you're not catching any, then they must be overfished! Cut the TAC and shorten the season!!
If you tell them you're catching more than ever, then they're definitely being overfished! Cut the TAC and shorten the season!!!

Anyone noticing a pattern here?

Unfortunately, there aren't enough people in positions of power, who fish the Gulf of Mexico, to make a real difference.
LA going completely non-compliant is a good start. MS, AL, and FL should do the same.
The gulf states having less than 9nm of state waters should claim 9nm, just as LA did.

The people making these decisions have no idea how many red snapper are out there, or grouper, or triggerfish, or any other species. Their data is based on conjecture! How do you count the fish in the sea? You don't!! You just make a wild-assed guess. And that's what they're doing. Over the past decade, we've watched them cut the snapper seasons shorter and/or reduce the bag limits, while noting that we divers were seeing more and more snapper. At the same time, they reduced some restrictions on grouper, while I was noticing fewer of them on my dives. They have no clue what the actual state of the fisheries are. They only know the state of their budgets. If the problems are solved, they are not needed... "better maintain the crisis to maintain our budget!!" It's a conflict of interest, really.
And the greatest part about all of it: They're using our tax dollars to do this to us!
Anybody pissed off yet?


----------



## RMS

FelixH said:


> It really doesn't matter. They have their agenda and will spin the input any way they need to in order to reach the desired output.
> 
> If you tell them you're not catching any, then they must be overfished! Cut the TAC and shorten the season!!
> If you tell them you're catching more than ever, then they're definitely being overfished! Cut the TAC and shorten the season!!!
> 
> Anyone noticing a pattern here?
> 
> Unfortunately, there aren't enough people in positions of power, who fish the Gulf of Mexico, to make a real difference.
> LA going completely non-compliant is a good start. MS, AL, and FL should do the same.
> The gulf states having less than 9nm of state waters should claim 9nm, just as LA did.
> 
> The people making these decisions have no idea how many red snapper are out there, or grouper, or triggerfish, or any other species. Their data is based on conjecture! How do you count the fish in the sea? You don't!! You just make a wild-assed guess. And that's what they're doing. Over the past decade, we've watched them cut the snapper seasons shorter and/or reduce the bag limits, while noting that we divers were seeing more and more snapper. At the same time, they reduced some restrictions on grouper, while I was noticing fewer of them on my dives. They have no clue what the actual state of the fisheries are. They only know the state of their budgets. If the problems are solved, they are not needed... "better maintain the crisis to maintain our budget!!" It's a conflict of interest, really.
> And the greatest part about all of it: They're using our tax dollars to do this to us!
> Anybody pissed off yet?


This is one of the most accurate and truthful statements I've ever read about this topic. 

Well done, sir.


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## tbaxl

Well I hope Florida goes non-complaint, if it kills the AL season so be it. Today I cancelled my order for 10 coops (two welded together) no reason to create habitat if all I can do is know it's there. Maybe once the support industry begins to cry foul we can get some decent legislation. Remember you support guys, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I am also holding out hope for a gulf region lawsuit, friendly federal judge, to shut the whole RS season down so no one fishes, rec or comm.


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## Bean Counter

You hit it Tom. If we are going to tags they should belong to individual people for their non-transferable personal use.


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## tmilton

All one has to do if follow the money - whom from all regulatory groups are in bed with the commercial fleets (you will be surprised) ? Understand the commercial fishermen need to be able to make a living however there are many more opportunities for our tourist trade to insure we have no state income tax by filling rooms, purchasing food and beverages and oh - coming to the state to go fishing.


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## Tom Hilton

*Exploring Fish Tag Scenarios*



Fairwaterfishing said:


> Oh and guess what tomorrow they will put on a full bore, gulf wide, IFQ multi-species Charter for Hire program on the docket. It will be no pilot program it will be for real. Oh and they vote on amendment 28 tomorrow too. Hmmm wonder how thats going to go?
> 
> One more thing. Our pilot program was put together by OBFA members and the State of Alabama, Thats it. No EDF. No CFA. You can put that in your pipe and smoke it brother.


Misinformation again.

No full bore, gulf wide, IFQ multi-species Charter for Hire program - Crabtree made the motion for a snapper only program. I'm not sure it's even legal for him to make a motion like that - I know his staff was more than a little shocked when he did. I guess he was caught up in the giddiness of it all when they approved the Alabama Charterboat EFP. Of course you do have a point about "multi-species IFQs" being the end result, we all know that IFQs are not just about red snapper - snapper are just the "gateway drug" that will provide the precedence to expand IFQs to every single federally-managed fish that swims out there...and with that, the ability for people/corporations to skim $$ off of each and every fish we catch.

Amendment 28 is moving forward with Option 5 Amigo.

The Alabama Charterboat Program was cut and pasted from the EDF headboat pilot EFP - so much so, that it was rejected the first time around by the Council for plagiarism. The scientific advisor was listed as Greg Stunz - however, when I talked to Dr. Stunz, he didn't know what I was talking about. Same old BS of claiming to be independent of EDF/CFA when in reality you are carrying the ball that they placed in your hands - your Alabama Charterboat EFP is a DIRECT result of EDF's meddling here. To claim otherwise is either stupidity or dishonesty - which is it Ard?

Your Alabama charterboat EFP doesn't solve anything, as it doesn't address the core issue of lack of "accountability" for the Gulf of Mexico recreational fishermen. It simply gifts a portion of our recreational TAC and our Public Trust Resource to your cooperative, leaving the rest of the Gulf recreational fishermen who fish on charter boats, private recs and the remaining 58 headboats to twist in the wind. And, with this lack of accountability, Crabtree stated that we could possibly overfish our TAC even with a zero-day federal season - a zero-day federal season means no fishing for anyone, including your cooperative.

Any "true" plan to solve this dilemma requires a holistic approach to the problem - addressing only a minority % without addressing the majority can in no way be considered a realistic solution. That has always been the fatal flaw with Sector Separation - the core premise is to "Segregate" the Gulf recreational fishermen, then "Discriminate" by enacting different regulations for anglers based on what type of boat he is fishing from. Hardly fair and equitable by any stretch of the imagination.

I believe that if we are truly interested in solving the problem at hand, we must provide solutions that include ALL recreational anglers in the equation. I believe the BEST solution would be a program like The OFS Permit Plan that would provide true accountability for ALL Gulf recreational anglers and therefore could be regulated by seasons/bag limits. However, I don't see the will at the federal level to do that.

One possible solution is to require fish tags for EVERY recreational angler who fishes for red snapper - I have some questions that I am simply thinking about out loud here and looking for some feedback;

1) Why should a private rec angler be required to have a tag when an angler fishing aboard Capt. Ard's boat or a headboat NOT be required to have one? 

2) Why should a small group of charter permit holders be gifted with ownership of our Public Trust Resource when we ALL own those fish? It is NOT necessary to gift our fish to anyone in order to achieve the goals of better accountability and flexibility.

3) Fish tags would not limit the number of customers that the charter fleet can take to go fishing like IFQs would - those customers just must be required to have their tags - kinda like an outfitter taking people deer hunting - the outfitter doesn't own the tags, but the hunter must have a tag to harvest a deer or elk, or whatever.

4) Fish tags would be the most fair and equitable way to distribute the fish among ALL private anglers, including those "millions of non-boat-owning Americans" that charter boats take fishing. Imagine an angler walking down the dock with a couple of red snapper tags in his hand, and at the end of the dock is a headboat, a charterboat, and buddy's private vessel - this angler would have the option to step aboard ANY of those boats and go fishing, any day of the year, and be legal and "accountable".

5) The fish tags would be an option to add to your fishing license, much like deer tags are included in your hunting license. The difference would be that you could refill your tags when you turn them in for the required accountability mechanism.

6) The use of fish tags could eliminate the need for buffers or other punitive mechanisms to keep us off of the water, since they would provide a laser-sharp picture of effort/landings, thus allowing us to actually catch the fish that they are using as an excuse not to catch due to the "uncertainty".

7) The use of fish tags would provide every Gulf recreational fisherman the opportunity to fish any time he/she wants - there would be no need for seasons/bag limits. If you have the tags, you can harvest those fish all in one trip, or spread it across a few trips whenever the weather is nice.

8) Since they refuse to account for all recreational red snapper fishermen here in the Gulf, the number of tags will be based on how many they want to print - NOT historical take. I also don't think that the number of fish tags that would be distributed based on the existing 49% recreational TAC would be sufficient to provide enough to go around for everyone who wants to go fishing for snapper, and that fundamental flaw of our fisheries managers guesstimates would be exposed. 

9) Expounding on #8, if a Gulf-wide recreational IFQ program was implemented based on the methodologies used in determining the number of fish per IFQ for the Alabama Charterboat EFP, other states' charter fleets would take it up the back side *BIG TIME*. If the Alabama boats got 4,000 pounds per vessel, I would venture to guess that the Texas charter boats would get somewhere around 200 pounds per vessel. That's what the Charter Fisherman Association people don't want you to be thinking about, but that's the God's honest truth. I have been fighting for Texas charterboats for quite some time now, but the CFA propaganda machine has always portrayed me as being against them - not true.

10) Any snapper landed on the dock MUST have a tag, whether it was caught in state or federal waters. This eliminates the guesswork about state water catches and related punitive measures, and eliminates the distrust of whether people caught their fish in federal waters when the season was closed - both state and federal waters would be open 365 days/year for red snapper - you just need a tag to harvest one.

I am so tired of people saying that we haven't proffered viable ideas for the recreational fishery - I think this just may work. We are ALL Gulf recreational fishermen, and we should ALL be given a fair shake here - not just a few charter captains. I have never really been a big proponent of fish tags, but given the political reality of today's fisheries management, it may be our only option at this point.

Put that in YOUR pipe and smoke it Ard.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## jgraham154

That was awesome Tom and keep up the good fight for us working recreational fisherman, who don't leach on our natural resources and hoard it from everyone else!!!


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## SnapperSlapper

Until they come up with accurate estimates of what the population is, it is all worthless. They are intentionally way underestimating the actual population of snapper in the gulf. This is just another "crisis" and "disaster" manufactured by the federal government. There is a ton of money in "crisis" and "disaster".


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## Tom Hilton

I think that data is a weapon that cuts both ways. We need for all of the Gulf states to follow Louisiana's and Alabama's lead by implementing their own (NMFS-Free) data program to provide a checks/balances on the feds' "guesstimates".

I want there to be a year-round red snapper season for EVERY Gulf recreational angler - those who fish on private boats, charter boats, or headboats - this could do it.


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## LES KNIGHTEN

AndyS said:


> From the article:
> " _... A group of 21 commercial fishermen from all Gulf Coast states filed the lawsuit against ..._ "
> 
> Well, ya know what? I'd like to know *just who these "21 commercial fishermen" are *who filed this suit & meet up with one or more of 'em sometime to ask 'em just how it is they figger they got a right to so much as even one more Red Snapper as I do just 'cause they paid for a permit that allows them to sell the ones they catch to somebody else? (I wonder if their names & addresses are published anywhere - maybe about 200 recreational fisherman need to show up at each of their houses to ask 'em about it?)
> 
> I'm kinda new to the coast here, undoubtedly somewhat ignorant of the politics, and comin' from a freshwater background. But I am used to regulations regarding management of such species as Largemouth Bass & certain other tasty regulated fish ... and you don't see anybody getting special catch privileges so they can sell those fish.
> 
> If there's not enough of 'em ... nobody should be allowed to catch 'em to sell. Ya can't sell wild-shot venison.
> 
> And I'm sorry. I'm no scientist, but I just find it hard to believe with the short recreational season; 2 fish per day limit; weather considerations; the price of gas; and the fact most rec fishermen have day jobs limiting the days they can go out; that recreational fishing has much impact on the Red Snapper population at all (charter/taxi boats excepted.) Maybe they need to have the Lionfish reporting their "catch" of baby Snappers so they can get more accurate numbers .... via their smartphones.
> 
> 
> 
> In respect to the plaintiffs in case # 1:13-cv- 00988, I know who each and every one of them are and one of them is from Pensacola. I'm not going to tell you who that person is because that not the issue. I will tell you this, Gulf Fishermen's Association, Inc. and Gulf of Mexico Reef Shareholders Alliance were also Plaintiffs . Additionally, Coast Conservation Association (CCA) was Defendant Intervener. I spent the grand total of seventy cents (7 pages) to find out who the plaintiff's were.
> 
> 
> .


In respect to the plaintiffs in case # 1:13-cv- 00988, I know who each and every one of them are and one of them is from Pensacola. I'm not going to tell you who that person is because that not the issue. I will tell you this, Gulf Fishermen's Association, Inc. and Gulf of Mexico Reef Shareholders Alliance were also Plaintiffs . Additionally, Coast Conservation Association (CCA) was Defendant Intervener. I spent the grand total of seventy cents (7 pages) to find out who the plaintiff's were.


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## Chapman5011

Bean Counter said:


> You hit it Tom. If we are going to tags they should belong to individual people for their non-transferable personal use.


Realistically , where would these tags be bought if that's the case. Would it really be walmart, kind of like the monopoly they have of the fishing license. In alabama, there are only two ways that I have found, well three....Walmart, the 1800#, and the website. But Walmart is the only physical place you can go, and their system always seems to be down at 6 in the morning when a friend needs a license. Would people that live farther away from the gulf get more tags r would they get fewer because of the distance.
Or would we all get the same # or would it end up being one of those cob Slobbin back door deals that we are seeing now with the system


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## LES KNIGHTEN

Tom Hilton said:


> I think that data is a weapon that cuts both ways. We need for all of the Gulf states to follow Louisiana's and Alabama's lead by implementing their own (NMFS-Free) data program to provide a checks/balances on the feds' "guesstimates".
> 
> I want there to be a year-round red snapper season for EVERY Gulf recreational angler - those who fish on private boats, charter boats, or headboats - this could do it.




 

Captain Tom, 
 

My wife and I have had a lot of sickness and I've been out of touch for the last year or so. It' great to be reading your post again. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.


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## Tom Hilton

Les, thanks for the feedback and support - it is appreciated.

I think I have figured it out, and again am looking for more feedback. I never really have been a fan of fish tags, and now I realize they are not even needed. Screw fish tags.

When you dove or duck hunting, do you need to tag each bird you shoot? Nope. If a game warden approaches you in the field, or you are checked on a roadside check point, you had better have your hunting license with you and be within your possession limit.

The answer is a federal snapper stamp. I had suggested such a thing years ago, but the feedback on this thread made me start thinking about them again. Just like the federal duck stamp, you would be required to have a snapper stamp on your license in order to harvest snapper. The difference would be that instead of a picture of a pretty duck on the stamp, it would be a barcode such as shown below.

With a federal duck stamp, it doesn't matter if you are hunting from a pirogue on the bayou, in a duck blind on your own land, or hunting with a professional guide, you had better have that duck stamp when approached by a game warden. Likewise, it doesn't matter if you are fishing on your own boat, a charter boat, or a head boat, you had better have that snapper stamp when approached by a game warden. 

A federal duck stamp that costs $15/year, and doesn't limit the number of hunters who can purchase one nor does it limit how many ducks they can shoot in a year. Likewise, you could purchase a federal snapper stamp for $15/year, and they shouldn't limit the number of fishermen or how many snapper they can harvest. That will be done on the back side as the regulators can see (almost real-time the effort/landings data). Read here regarding how successful the duck stamp has been; http://about.usps.com/news/state-rel..._2012_0717.htm You can buy the stamp online or at a U.S. Post Office, and they even offer an "e-stamp" that you can print out on your own printer.

Interesting fact; *Ninety-eight cents of every dollar generated by the sales of Federal Duck Stamps goes directly to purchase or lease wetland habitat for protection in the National Wildlife Refuge System.*

Don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, but the monies generated by the sale of the federal snapper stamp could likewise be used not only to pay for the program, but to create habitat for the fish!

When you go fishing, the captain of the vessel would be the responsible party to scan your barcode and input the number of snapper you caught that day; 0, 1, or 2. This would need to be done PRIOR to landing at the dock, as suggested by The OFS Permit Plan or the iSnapper program. The technology is here for any smartphone to scan barcodes (for free), and there could be a system setup to accept that information on the internet, and the harvest tallies available to all just like they do for the IFQ program, except this would be even more REAL-TIME.

1) It doesn't matter how many stamps are issued - it matters how much harvest data is scanned and inputted into the system - technology would allow us to manage the fishery on the back end instead of on the front end as currently done with season days. The season could start on a specific day and end on whatever day the poundage is caught, just the like the commercial red snapper fishery, (except we are not privatizing the resource and this program would actually pay for itself).

2) Each stamp would be tied to a specific fishing license, just like a duck stamp, and would be good for 2 snapper per day. It will be a requirement for your stamp to be scanned and reported and reported on the way out, and scanned and reported before landing at the dock. It's important to hail out with the number of anglers fishing for snapper that day so if you are checked by a LEO, you are fishing legally. It is important to hail in with your catch info, as that is how you reset your balance to zero. If the captain hails out with your snapper stamp info and fails to report back with your landings info, you can't go fishing again until that is resolved. This will create the incentive to report your catches as well as buy-in to the data by the recreational fishing community. Right now, NOBODY believes the numbers they are pulling our of their back side.

3) There would be no arbitrary poundage assigned to a region or to a subgroup such as charter, headboat, or private rec. or even a region - since the harvest data would be almost real-time, the regulators can manage the fishery to its potential. This should be of the utmost interest to Texas charter boat and private rec fishermen who would be penalized unfairly due to egregiously flawed historical landings data if recreational IFQs or regionalization come to pass. This would wipe the slate clean, and historical landings would start at the inception of the program.

4) It would validate state water snapper landings data, instead of guessing how many snapper are caught outside of federal season.

5) I believe this could eliminate the need for 30B, and remove that discriminatory reg.

6) The stamp would simplify the process and actually make it cheaper too - no need to issue tags. No need to mail replacement tags. It would all be done electronically and instantaneously.

7) Eliminates the supposed need for recreational catch shares or IFQs, AND is the most fair and equitable way to manage the Gulf recreational red snapper fishery as it removes the segregationist and discriminatory issues that plague the Sector Separation debacle. All Gulf of Mexico red snapper fishermen fish under the same rules, and nobody is gaining unfair advantage over another with this system. Nor does this system create a "fisherman's retirement fund" as IFQs do from the profits made from selling/leasing our Public Trust Resource - the monies generated actually go towards paying for the program and for enhancing the fishery!

Done.

More feedback?

Tom


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## Burnt Drag

Tom, I like your idea, but wouldn't a camera mounted on the Pensacola Lighthouse viewing the pass, and cameras mounted on a condo near Destin Pass, and every major pass, like Little Alabama Pass @ OB, and Ft. Morgan go a long way tward estimating the effort? These people driving into marinas and checking to see what boats are gone, and driving to boat launches to count the boat trailers is just bogus non precise information. It's also the kind of information that's been used. In June, July, and August, Ft. McRea, Crab Island, and the islands N. of the Perdido Pass bridge are packed with boats that have not seen a snapper except on a billboard or restaurant menu.


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## Tom Hilton

Burnt,
Using a camera viewing from a distance would in no way be considered as a viable way to count the effort and certainly not the number of fish harvested. Also, this would be of limited use at night or in foggy conditions. Remember that there are too many inlets/passes across the Gulf to place cameras on all of them. Additionally, then you have to man them and "process" what they see - sounds extremely expensive, cumbersome, and not really achieving the best data available that the federal snapper stamp gives us.

We need to come together with a VIABLE solution, or we WILL be looking at more of the same flawed data being used to apportion our fish through recreational IFQs and fish tags. That is a fact. 

I believe the federal snapper stamp is the answer, and actually a BETTER solution than recreational IFQs or fish tags for the many reasons already listed.


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## MrFish

Tom Hilton said:


> Burnt,
> Using a camera viewing from a distance would in no way be considered as a viable way to count the effort and certainly not the number of fish harvested. Also, this would be of limited use at night or in foggy conditions. Remember that there are too many inlets/passes across the Gulf to place cameras on all of them. Additionally, then you have to man them and "process" what they see - sounds extremely expensive, cumbersome, and not really achieving the best data available that the federal snapper stamp gives us.
> 
> We need to come together with a VIABLE solution, or we WILL be looking at more of the same flawed data being used to apportion our fish through recreational IFQs and fish tags. That is a fact.
> 
> I believe the federal snapper stamp is the answer, and actually a BETTER solution than recreational IFQs or fish tags for the many reasons already listed.


I am not partial to a system where the data would be compiled by the federal government. Getting all the gulf states on the same page, as far as reef fish management, would be a better option, in my opinion.


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## Mac1528

Sorry Alabama, as a tourist, I work hard to spend my money on vacation, and I chose to go where I get the most for my money. I love to fish and I bring my boat all the time....so it's Louisana this year! I hope things get straightened out soon, maybe your representatives will realize this as the ecomomy goes elsewhere.



The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries has announced that weekday fishing for red snapper will be allowed starting April 14, 2014 until further notice.
Concerns over the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council and their control of fish population management in federal waters brought state lawmakers to the decision.

“After reviewing what our biologists expect Louisiana’s recreational red snapper landings to be this year, and the recent action taken by the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council to have a very short federal season, I have decided to support our anglers and the associated fishing industry by opening state waters 365 days until further notice,” stated Secretary Robert Barham in the official press release on _TheOutdoorWire.com_.
“The Gulf Council’s action is clear evidence that their process is broken and they give no consideration to the needs of individual states,” continued Barham. “For two years, I have been trying to persuade the Gulf Council to move forward with regional management, allowing the states flexibility in management by empowering our anglers and fishing industry to decide how they want red snapper managed. That hasn’t happened.”
Louisiana’s state waters were motioned to be extended in 2012 from three miles offshore to three marine leagues, or roughly nine nautical miles, but it has not been recognized by the federal government. Should anglers venture beyond that three-mile boundary, they are subject to federal laws and regulations.

Previously, weekends included Fridays, but were the only days for legal red snapper fishing in the state. Memorial Day and Labor Day were tossed in for good measure. A limit of two per angler with a 16-inch minimum length can be kept.
Finally, as a reminder of the struggle going on, the DFW’s website states “As our department continues to fight the battle for regional management of our fisheries, regulations may have the potential to change throughout the season. We urge anglers to visit this webpage or our online fishing regulations pamphlet prior to your trip to ensure you are compliant.”
_Will you be taking advantage of the extended red snapper fishing in Louisiana?_


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## Tom Hilton

MrFish said:


> I am not partial to a system where the data would be compiled by the federal government. Getting all the gulf states on the same page, as far as reef fish management, would be a better option, in my opinion.


I hear ya. The part about getting all of the Gulf states on the same page...well, good luck with that.

Now, it is good to see that the Gulf states such as Louisiana and Alabama and probably Florida are enacting their data accountability programs - Texas and Mississippi need to do the same. This could provide a checks/balances to the federal data.

Tom


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## markw4321

Tom

I believe a fedral Stamp could work. Many have mentioned the idea to Roy Crabtree and he always says the same thing that his organization (National Fisheries Service) could not get funding from the stamp proceeds to put in place any sort of data collection system. That the funds would go straight to the treasury if they were collected.


The man is lying (Crabrtree) in one sense, because if National Fisheries Service/NOAA desired they could push for legislation that would define the proceed use and the stamp system. crabtree knows this, he is too slick and eductaed not to. I tried to carefully call him out on it during one of his phone call sessions and they cut me off. Haha

The reason I know that National Fisheries Service/NOAA could push it if they wanted to is that government orgs like NOAA routinely get a chance to review legislative proposals that effect their programs and they have an opportunity annually to make legislative proposals. 

If you had enough Congressman and or Senators interesed their staffs could write the legislation and get it passed so a stamp was put in place and then you could open Crabtree's mouth and ram it down his throat while he says Ahhh. 

Clearly all Crabtree wants is catch shares cacth shares catch shares...


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## SnapperSlapper

There is only one thing they want, and that is for all recreational fishing to end. It is that simple. You've got the fox guarding the henhouse when the "scientists" that are providing the data, running the models, projecting the population, and setting an allowable catch also want the same thing as well: to stop fishing. They will go to most any means necessary to achieve this, all the while convincing the uninformed that it is a necessity or else we all face the extinction of all life in the ocean.

The current climate and environmental movement is the biggest money grab in history.


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## Tom Hilton

Snapper Slapper - this could prove that the profit-grab scam called Catch Shares are not needed - we already know they are not wanted.

Mark - great points. Below is information about the FEDERAL duck stamp, managed by the Dept. of the Interior. If one FEDERAL agency could do this with such success, why couldn't another FEDERAL agency do the VERY SAME THING? That's the beauty of it - it's been in existence since 1934 and has ALREADY proven itself to be an extremely SUCCESSFUL tool to manage our wildlife resources.

Since people would be required to purchase the stamps, it would provide a laser-sharp database of WHO is fishing for red snapper. The reporting requirement would provide a laser-sharp database of HOW MANY fish are landed, and by whom.

Tom

*The U.S. Department of the Interior issued the $15 Migratory Bird Hunting and Conservation Stamp in June for the 2012-2013 waterfowl hunting season.


A Federal Duck Stamps acts as a federal hunting license for all forms of waterfowl in the United States. They are not valid for postage.


Originally created in 1934 as the federal licenses required for hunting migratory waterfowl, Federal Duck Stamps have a larger purpose today. Ninety-eight cents of every dollar generated by the sales of Federal Duck Stamps goes directly to purchase or lease wetland habitat for protection in the National Wildlife Refuge System. The stamp also serves as an entrance pass to these National Wildlife Refuges, where admission is normally charged.


In the years since its enactment, the Federal Duck Stamp Program has become one of the most popular and successful conservation programs ever initiated. Some 635,000 hunters paid $1 each for the first stamps, which went on sale August 22, 1934. Since then, the price has gradually risen to the current $15 and the number of stamps bought climbed to a peak of 2.4 million in 1970-71. Today, some 1.7 million stamps are sold each year.


Thanks in large part to hunters and conservationists, Duck Stamps sales have raised more than $750 million, which has been used to buy 5.3 million acres of wetland for the National Wildlife Refuge System. Many of the more than 545 national wildlife refuges have been paid for all or in part by Duck Stamp money.


Duck Stamps have become popular with stamp collectors as well. A collector who had bought each stamp the year it was issued would have paid a total of $394 by 2002. That investment would now be worth well over $5,000. Stamps issued before 1941 are exceedingly rare since the law originally specified that unsold stamps were to be destroyed the following year. Although the majority of excess stamps are still destroyed annually, the United States Postal Service, continues to sell each year's stamp for 3 years.


Waterfowl are not the only wildlife to benefit from Federal Duck Stamps. Numerous other birds, mammals, fish, reptiles and amphibians have also prospered because of habitat protection made possible by the program. Further, an estimated one third of the nation's endangered and threatened species find food or shelter in refuges preserved by Duck Stamp funds.


Joseph Hautman of Plymouth, Minnesota, won the 2011 Federal Duck Stamp Contest with his acrylic painting of a single wood duck. His art was made into the 2012-2013 Federal Duck Stamp. Hautman has previously won the contest three times, in 1991, 2001 and 2007. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service produces the Federal Duck Stamp, which provides critical funds for conserving wetlands for the benefit of wildlife and the enjoyment of people.


“The stamp itself is widely known as one of this nation’s most successful and effective conservation programs,” said Assistant Director Jerome Ford of the Service’s Migratory Bird Program. “This connection of generations through the traditions of wildlife art and conservation is what makes the Federal Duck Stamp Program so successful.”
To learn more about the Federal Duck Stamps, visit http://www.fws.gov/duckstamps/. 
*


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## markw4321

Tom

I agree its possible and that it could be done if NOAA/NFS wanted it done along with Congress and the Pres. I'm just saying that everytime someone mentions it to Crabtree he starts throwing up road blocks instead of making away for it to be a reality.


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## Lyin Too

The NMFS cant achieve their ultimate goal with correct data. That is to decrease the supply of red snapper and therefore increase the demand and price.


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## CharlieT

*Support R/S Stamp*

I would be on board if they removed the "market hunters" for snapper just as they did for waterfowl.


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## Telum Pisces

CharlieT said:


> I would be on board if they removed the "market hunters" for snapper just as they did for waterfowl.


Yep, take away the commercial fishing of the species before you start telling me that a species is over fished and needs more regulation with a stamp or tag.


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## Tom Hilton

I agree about the commercial aspect of the problem, but the reality of the situation is that the commercial red snapper fishery isn't going away anytime soon. It is the recreational red snapper fishery that is facing extinction in the immediate future unless something is changed.

The federal snapper stamp is a viable way out of this morass, if implemented in conjunction with the Gulf states implementing their own data collection programs to provide a checks/balances to whatever the feds say.


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## Telum Pisces

Tom Hilton said:


> I agree about the commercial aspect of the problem, but the reality of the situation is that the commercial red snapper fishery isn't going away anytime soon. It is the recreational red snapper fishery that is facing extinction in the immediate future unless something is changed.
> 
> The federal snapper stamp is a viable way out of this morass, if implemented in conjunction with the Gulf states implementing their own data collection programs to provide a checks/balances to whatever the feds say.


They can't talk out one side of the mouth telling me that the red snapper fishery is in trouble and that we need a stamp to count our harvest etc... and still allow commercial harvest. You talk about the duck stamp as an example on how it has helped the species. Well, you can't commercially hunt migratory birds which ducks fall under. 

I for one will not agree with any type of management of a species that is commercially caught and sold yet restricted on the recreational side of the house. History has shown that it is not recreational take of game that causes the numbers to go down. It's when humans are allowed to profit off the resource when the population dwindles etc... Shut that down first and then we will talk about recreational controls to stabilize the population. 

Just about every land animal that humans hunt have done away with commercial harvest that once took place. Why is that? It's because it was actually to protect a species from extinction. In the case of snapper, it's not about protecting the species at all. 

I should not be able to go buy any species that I can't hunt, grow, raise, or fish for myself. It's just plain wrong on so many levels. I am not saying that there should not be restrictions. But an animal resource should not be given to a select few to sell and make a profit on.:thumbsup:


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## Kim

That 's the danger of IFQ's and such, once it's "given" it seems like it can never be taken away. That has caused tremendous problems with fisheries in Alaska and the North East where the "godfathers" of IFQ's sit at home and rake in big bucks retirement fishing from their armchairs by leasing out their quotas to the younger generation of commercial just starting out and taking the lions share without lifting a finger.


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## LopeAlong

jgraham154 said:


> That was awesome Tom and keep up the good fight for us working recreational fisherman, who don't leach on our natural resources and hoard it from everyone else!!!


Keep up the good fight? What are you smoking? Hilton is just a internet tough guy that won't get out of his mothers basement long enough to come to a Gulf Council meeting.


----------



## johnboatjosh

I agree that it's insane to think that a species that is commercially harvested could possibly require a stamp or tag to recreationally harvest. BUT, the reality (like Tom mentioned) is that the commercial snapper fishery is too large and powerful to be stopped any time soon. SO, if tags or stamps help correct the B.S. that currently comprises the recreational snapper management process I'm all for it. 

Also, thank you Tom for your work to help the rec angler in this mess.


----------



## PoolBoy074

LopeAlong said:


> Keep up the good fight? What are you smoking? Hilton is just a internet tough guy that won't get out of his mothers basement long enough to come to a Gulf Council meeting.


Really??? Dude maybe u need to do some research on Tom Hilton bro....


----------



## CharlieT

*Roll Your Own*




I should not be able to go buy any species that I can't hunt said:


> If the commercials want to sell them, let them grow them in an artificial environment...just like a cow or turkey.
> 
> I wonder if one could grow a gazillion snapper and beat down the market price. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to grow snapper to 13 inches. Market it as mercury and parasite free and the whole wild market would collapse.


----------



## badonskybuccaneers

I think it has been proven time and again that _farm raised_ seafood/ crawfish/ etc don't have the same flavor as the wild caught. It lacks an appeal that so many of us appreciate. :thumbsup: Something about the diet and environment of the desired species that gives it the desired flavor....
So they might fool a few with an inexperienced palette, but not everyone. :blink:

It sounds like it would be a huge undertaking. And I would assume in order to maintain the quality of the fish, they would need to harvest eggs, etc from wild caught fish on a regular basis (a whole other area for the government to scrutinize and monitor)- or risk poor quality after a few seasons of their stock interbreeding. Sound about right?


----------



## sniperpeeps

badonskybuccaneers said:


> I think it has been proven time and again that farm raised seafood/ crawfish/ etc don't have the same flavor as the wild caught. It lacks an appeal that so many of us appreciate. :thumbsup:
> So they might fool a few with an inexperienced palette, but now everyone. :blink:


I don't know about that. Those of us privy to eating fresh seafood know the difference but the average person has no clue. Just like when you see "gulf snapper" on the menu at a local eatery. Most people assume it's red snapper when it is actually mingo. People wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't care, just go to a publix seafood section and watch all the folks buy the Asian and South American farmed seafood completely clueless.


----------



## Telum Pisces

sniperpeeps said:


> I don't know about that. Those of us privy to eating fresh seafood know the difference but the average person has no clue. Just like when you see "gulf snapper" on the menu at a local eatery. Most people assume it's red snapper when it is actually mingo. People wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't care, just go to a publix seafood section and watch all the folks buy the Asian and South American farmed seafood completely clueless.


Yep, that goes along with the argument that these commercial guys spew all the time about supplying "everyone" with said snapper. I can tell you that "EVERYONE" in the United States would not be able to tell you the difference between mingo, mangrove, or red snapper. I can. You can. But that's because it's what we eat and catch fresh. By the time the fish gets to a local restaurant in the middle of the country, it does not matter what fish it is. Most want a white flaky fish that is mild in flavor. Plenty of species out there that fill that need. Gulf Red Snapper just has a notoriety with the name compared to Talapia for example. And I bet that farm raised or pen raised fish will fill that need quite well.

People are working on it. It is just a massive undertaking to raise the amount needed to be profitable. There is a huge upfront cost to get going and to invest in something that might not live to make it to market.


----------



## LopeAlong

PoolBoy074 said:


> Really??? Dude maybe u need to do some research on Tom Hilton bro....


Um Captain Tom J Hilton. Under investigation for running illegal charters on a vessel that sank and the insurance won't pay for. The guy that thinks every CFH operator is in bed with the EDF and the Easter Bunny. The guy who makes his living off of a public resource but doesn't want anyone else to do the same. The guy that will get on 4 fishing forums a night to fight the good fight but won't show up to fisheries meeting. I've been to every meeting within 300 miles of here but still have yet to see him. 

Yeah I've heard of him


----------



## Gator McKlusky

LopeAlong said:


> Um Captain Tom J Hilton. Under investigation for running illegal charters on a vessel that sank and the insurance won't pay for. The guy that thinks every CFH operator is in bed with the EDF and the Easter Bunny. The guy who makes his living off of a public resource but doesn't want anyone else to do the same. The guy that will get on 4 fishing forums a night to fight the good fight but won't show up to fisheries meeting. I've been to every meeting within 300 miles of here but still have yet to see him.
> 
> Yeah I've heard of him


Yall working on a flounder ifq plan yet?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

So you guys solved the worlds "Red Snapper" problems yet? Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind.


----------



## badonskybuccaneers

Fairwaterfishing said:


> So you guys solved the worlds "Red Snapper" problems yet? Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind.


Anything like NOAAs plan to make the gulf a catch and release only fishery?!?!


----------



## johnboatjosh

I'll tell you what's more irritating that the Govt.'s inept snapper management. 

CFH guys that get a hard on from rubbing it in the face of rec anglers when they get preferential treatment.


----------



## Tom Hilton

telum pisces,
I agree with every word you say, except the reality is that if you get behind a viable plan to prevent the spread of the very thing you detest, then, I hate to say it, you are in effect endorsing the privatization of our fish and the increase of the commercial market share.

If not the federal snapper stamp, get behind ANY plan that provides a viable alternative to the spread of Cacth Shares in our recreational fisheries.

Listen to what Kim is saying - it is as true as the blue sky.


----------



## The LaJess II

Fairwaterfishing said:


> So you guys solved the worlds "Red Snapper" problems yet? Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind.


 You just rubbed in our face. So give it up. What is it? It can't get any worse than what it is.

You guys are going to keep on with this until we go Nevada on the Feds here in the Gulf.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

This is a great thread. True brotherhood among fisherman.


----------



## Tom Hilton

LopeAlong said:


> Um Captain Tom J Hilton. Under investigation for running illegal charters on a vessel that sank and the insurance won't pay for. The guy that thinks every CFH operator is in bed with the EDF and the Easter Bunny. The guy who makes his living off of a public resource but doesn't want anyone else to do the same. The guy that will get on 4 fishing forums a night to fight the good fight but won't show up to fisheries meeting. I've been to every meeting within 300 miles of here but still have yet to see him.
> 
> Yeah I've heard of him


Sounds like slander and libel to me pard. 

How's that "investigation going? It's closed - I am not under investigation. Never ran an illegal charter in my life. You have no idea what you are talking about, and that tends to get people in some trouble.

However, there are some investigations going on relative to illegal dude trips being sold by a few of the Galveston CFA/Shareholder guys however - want an update on that? State and federal cases.

Here's a website promoting red snapper fishing year-round by a CFA Galveston guide; http://www.thefishinaddiction.com/galveston-red-snapper-fishing
"There is much controversy over the management of Red Snapper, and your Captains are at the forefront of this management discussion. It is understood that the season may be X amount of days or start on blank day, but big Red Snapper fishing with Galveston Sea Ventures ALL YEAR LONG. That's right, we offer Red Snapper fishing 365 days a year, weather permitting. In an effort to move past government regulation in a sustainable, accountable manner we have worked out an exclusive deal for you, our valued clients. Give us a call to learn more today, and have fresh Red Snapper to take home from your trip any time of year."

Sounds like a legit operation. Yeah, right.

Insurance has paid in full to my partner, not that it's any of your business - again, you don't know what you are talking about. The USCG investigated the matter and found that there was nothing we could have done - catastrophic hull failure - case is closed. All I have to say is that it really speaks volumes about your character to use a tragic event like that against someone for political gain. 

At least I did what I could to ensure that all passengers aboard made it home and are sleeping in their beds tonight. The USCG commended me on my actions that day and told me that "I probably saved lives". 

*In contrast, I have heard nothing from you or your EDF-funded commercial brethren about the commercial boat that sank out of Galveston last year - the Nite Owl, I think it was. The captain made several very bad decisions; offshore of Galveston about 100+ miles in 15' waves and 56 degree water. Four people died due to the bad decisions made that day. Yet, not a peep about that since it doesn't contain any political ammunition for you? Pitiful. *

Good God - don't you people have any respect?

Karma is a bitch, and you are in the front of the line Amigo.

I don't have exclusive access to anything and am not asking for it - get your facts straight. I have made my own way in life and have blazed new trails in several arenas, and am about to blaze a couple more. Stay tuned...

Ard - all of your so-called claims couldn't be backed up last time you were on here and here you are again making outlandish threats. What an idiot.


----------



## Redtracker

*Red Snapper Storm*

Pic did not post


----------



## Redtracker

*Red Snapper Storm*

Don't let this Red Snapper Storm get you...


----------



## Mark Collins

*The Real truth comes out*

:thumbup:


Telum Pisces said:


> There should be no "us" and "you". You are a taxi driver for "RECREATIONAL" fishermen that keep their catch. You are paid as a taxi driver that knows the best route to get the job done.


Thank you Telum for the REAL truth
Your quota gets on board with your customers
CFHs are nothing more than a boat driver that gets paid to carries Rec fishermen.
The only real solution is to make snapper a game fish and stop commercial fishing, this has always happened in the past, when a species has been over fished, why not on snapper ?
No one has even brought this up, It worked for the Redfish ?


----------



## hsiF deR

Fairwaterfishing said:


> So you guys solved the worlds "Red Snapper" problems yet? Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind.


Your pompous and arrogant attitude will make it much easier for me to stomach your loss when this comes crashing down.
:thumbsup:


----------



## Candy

Fairwaterfishing said:


> So you guys solved the worlds "Red Snapper" problems yet? Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind.


He is probably talking about the FWC proposal to implement a recreational reef fish permit system similar to the federal reef fish permits. This plan will be presented to the FWC Commission this week in Tallahassee.

At a combined agency meeting that was attended mainly by commercial fishermen and dual permitted fishermen, this question was asked: Is it possible for the Feds to permit all recreational fishermen? *The answer as: No, that is why we are using the FWC to do that as our proxy.* YIKES! Watch out! The very next week, the FWC held a meeting to roll out this "improved data collection" plan. 

I asked at the public meeting if the FWC planned to share the permit information with the feds and the answer was YES. I asked if they had anything in place to protect the private anglers from getting screwed like the charter guys got screwed with amendment 30 b that requires them to follow federal rules even when they're fishing in state waters and the answer was NO. EVERY private recreational fisherman's right to access our fishery will soon become even more controlled by not only the State, but also by the Feds. 

If you guys are interested, I'll tell you more.


----------



## Burnt Drag

The simple solution to this quagmire would have been to implement slot limits. 16-21", 
18-24" or whatever. When the population of the group dwindled to the point that fishermen were'nt bringing limits of that particular size in, the feds could close it. No.... that would be way to simple and not nearly enough regulation.


----------



## 285exp

Fairwaterfishing said:


> So you guys solved the worlds "Red Snapper" problems yet? Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind.


I'll tell you one thing captain, the next time someone asks me to recommend a charterboat in OB I'll tell them to damn sure not charter yours.


----------



## Gator McKlusky




----------



## The LaJess II

Candy said:


> He is probably talking about the FWC proposal to implement a recreational reef fish permit system similar to the federal reef fish permits. This plan will be presented to the FWC Commission this week in Tallahassee.
> 
> At a combined agency meeting that was attended mainly by commercial fishermen and dual permitted fishermen, this question was asked: Is it possible for the Feds to permit all recreational fishermen? *The answer as: No, that is why we are using the FWC to do that as our proxy.* YIKES! Watch out! The very next week, the FWC held a meeting to roll out this "improved data collection" plan.
> 
> I asked at the public meeting if the FWC planned to share the permit information with the feds and the answer was YES. I asked if they had anything in place to protect the private anglers from getting screwed like the charter guys got screwed with amendment 30 b that requires them to follow federal rules even when they're fishing in state waters and the answer was NO. EVERY private recreational fisherman's right to access our fishery will soon become even more controlled by not only the State, but also by the Feds.
> 
> If you guys are interested, I'll tell you more.


 Candy, yes I would like to hear more on this. Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.


----------



## Burnt Drag

In as much as the EDF backed Commercial Fishermen sued the NMFS for mis-management of the RS resource, does anyone other than me think that it was by design that they opened RS season last fall? Sure, most of the days it was open, the WX sucked so bad that fishing would have been dangerous, they had to have known that we'd go over. So, why did they open it? If you don't smell a rat, you don't have a nose. I'd wager this suit was planned well in advance of this opening. They knew the 11 day season would FORCE fence sitters to join the sector seperation movement.


----------



## billin

*Charter boat/head boat permit*

Simple question here why not transfer the license to a skiff whatever. Then transfer it back after Snapper season. All that is needed is two FIN# what is the big deal? Not being a smart azz just seems really simple to me


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Burnt Drag said:


> In as much as the EDF backed Commercial Fishermen sued the NMFS for mis-management of the RS resource, does anyone other than me think that it was by design that they opened RS season last fall? Sure, most of the days it was open, the WX sucked so bad that fishing would have been dangerous, they had to have known that we'd go over. So, why did they open it? If you don't smell a rat, you don't have a nose. I'd wager this suit was planned well in advance of this opening. They knew the 11 day season would FORCE fence sitters to join the sector seperation movement.


 
I'm with you. I believe NMFS and Dr. Roy Crabtree wanted this lawsuit...Otherwise how come he's not looking for a job right now, since according to the suit. he failed to manage the fishery properly...just saying.


----------



## Burnt Drag

billin said:


> Simple question here why not transfer the license to a skiff whatever. Then transfer it back after Snapper season. All that is needed is two FIN# what is the big deal? Not being a smart azz just seems really simple to me


A six pass. boat can get away with that, but the permit for a USCG boat certified for 22 would have to be tranfered to another multi pass boat in order for it to stay legit. There are quite a few boats that lost passenger count when USCG re-figured stability requirements. 
BTW, if I transfered the permit off my boat onto another, I'm positive NMFS would plug the hole with some new rule.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Burnt Drag said:


> A six pass. boat can get away with that, but the permit for a USCG boat certified for 22 would have to be tranfered to another multi pass boat in order for it to stay legit. There are quite a few boats that lost passenger count when USCG re-figured stability requirements.
> BTW, if I transfered the permit off my boat onto another, I'm positive NMFS would plug the hole with some new rule.



Your permit stays the same, I have a 22 man permit and it was dropped to 18 due to USCG capacity, If I transferred it to a bigger boat it would go back up to 22. There is a boat in our marina that just leased a permit, its a 6 pack boat and the permit is for 28. When its transferred to his boat it will go to 6, but the permit is still for 28 at the head office. The only bad business about transferring your permit is that I believe that they will only let you do that once a year on that permit to stop the dropping permit for a short time deal.


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## LopeAlong

Hilton answer why you make a living off of a public resource but you don't want anyone else to do the same?


----------



## LopeAlong

Gator McKlusky said:


> Yall working on a flounder ifq plan yet?


It wouldn't bother me one bit. I have documentable catch history because I commercial gig


----------



## Gator McKlusky

LopeAlong said:


> It wouldn't bother me one bit. I have documentable catch history because I commercial gig


I know you do that is why I asked. Why do you want to limit opportunities for families that own boats to fish together for snapper. In the video I watched you said your father was military and you fished together when you were growing up. Surely you understand families that want to fish together offshore for snapper on their own boats...your actions are hurting these type people.


----------



## tbaxl

LopeAlong what is the name of your boat, just wondering out loud.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Gator McKlusky said:


> I know you do that is why I asked. Why do you want to limit opportunities for families that own boats to fish together for snapper. In the video I watched you said your father was military and you fished together when you were growing up. Surely you understand families that want to fish together offshore for snapper on their own boats...your actions are hurting these type people.



Hold on just a second. Florida is about to go noncompliant and you will be able to fish at least 50 days with your family offshore on your boat for the all mighty red snapper. Mean while every federally permitted boat in the gulf of mexico will not have that same opportunity. Im sure you have a job somewhere, I guess. So its cool and were the bad guys, the ones with boat notes and expenses that you could not believe, that do and have made there living fishing in the gulf, and not able to keep THE easiest and most plentiful fish in the northern gulf. Now tell me again how your life sucks so bad? I really want to hear this. Please tell me what the CFH has done to effect your livelihood?


----------



## LopeAlong

First off you should know that my very first deep sea fishing trip was on board a charter boat with my father. Even in the recent years before his passing he and my family chartered the boat I was running that year to enjoy red snapper fishing. Our first charter out of Orange Beach was taken on a boat that I now own, the Liquid Therapy, formerly known as the Fish'N'Fool. I also own the Miss Brianna. All of my actions are to protect families like mine and give them the same access that is being stripped from them at a record rate. I've heard now some good ideas for the private rec sector but I can't see a family of 5 or a family 9 who is down here on vacation and at the last minute they decide to charter my boats at the last minute how those ideas will work for them. Now that you know my boats please spare me the "I won't send anyone to you" or the "I take 2-3 charters a year" speech because you don't make a bit of difference in my business. If you did take a trip a year odds are it is NOT during snapper season and your tired off throwing them back and when you fish with me in 2015 I'll tell you the good news! I'm tired of everyone on the freakin forum telling me I'm the fox in the hen house when the reality is you are. Your allowed to, like my friend and mentor has stated above, to retain in state waters during your 50 something day season. How many of you even have in numbers in state waters? I counted 96 on my machine last week just for the fun of it. How long do you think those fish are gonna last? Not very long then you'll be jumping the fence into federal waters catching fish there and bragging about it to your buddies. Walk a mile in my shoes. I'm a newer guy in this business meaning I still have boats to pay for. I pay $40k a year in notes on top of everything else. I have to make $175k before I can ever draw a paycheck. Trying swallowing those numbers and looking at an 11 day season. Yeah I'll still fish but my in season fuel bill is around $100per 6hr and outta season it's $300. I'm a fisherman I'm gonna catch fish it all just depends on how much fuel I have to burn. Snapper season trips are very profitable. 

Get ready because it's all going to change. If Hilton knew that buddy Guidion himself personally told me in Baton Rouge that they'd pay for the lawsuit if the Alabama EFP failed and not the EDF he'd go put his tin hat back on. If what I'm hearing in my pipeline is true there's still more changes to come this year and it will benefit everyone, not just CFH.


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## Tom Hilton

It's hard to bring about changes that benefit everyone, not just CFH, when EVERYTHING to date brought to the table has been solely about separating the CFH into their own sector, and NOTHING relative to the Gulf recreational fishermen as a whole.

The Alabama EFP is going to fail - I can already tell you that, but I can't tell you WHY at this time.

All the best,
Tom


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## SnapperSlapper

I give you credit for having the balls to post your boat names. I had considered posting your name and boat names but thought better of it. I understand the difficulties and fears of being a charter boat captain. 

But being a complete asshole, picking a fight with all non-charter recreational fisherman, and alienating yourself to every single person on this forum but Tom Ard probably won't help you in the long run.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> It's hard to bring about changes that benefit everyone, not just CFH, when EVERYTHING to date brought to the table has been solely about separating the CFH into their own sector, and NOTHING relative to the Gulf recreational fishermen as a whole.
> 
> The Alabama EFP is going to fail - I can already tell you that, but I can't tell you WHY at this time.
> 
> All the best,
> Tom


Thomas - As you know the CCA is very involved in the Red Snapper business. They are one of the biggest lobby groups for the recreational angler. Many CCA members on the council. In your opinion why haven't they brought to the table anything relative to the gulf recreational fishermen as a whole? Why do you think they sided with the NMFS and there failed management plan in the lawsuit? Oh and one more, your convinced but unable to say how the Alabama Pilot plan is going to fail, in your opinion do you think the Head boat pilot program is going to fail also?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

SnapperSlapper said:


> I give you credit for having the balls to post your boat names. I had considered posting your name and boat names but thought better of it. I understand the difficulties and fears of being a charter boat captain.
> 
> But being a complete asshole, picking a fight with all non-charter recreational fisherman, and alienating yourself to every single person on this forum but Tom Ard probably won't help you in the long run.


Ok I read this because my name is in it. To tell the truth I really don't understand what you tried to convey. I will tell you this. There is a big difference in picking a fight and standing up for your way of life. You push me and my, co-workers the CFH into a corner saying how great it is that all states go noncompliant and basically laugh at the CFH for not being able to harvest the fish that recreational boats can, then blame everything on us. Yea we will fight back. As Thomas Hilton has pointed out about 1001 times this is a public resource were arguing over. I stand for the guys that do not own boats, where the CFH is the only access to this public resource. Yes I profit off of this, its called my livelihood.


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## Tom Hilton

Your anti-CCA, tin foil hat, conspiracy theory BS is really getting weak. If I remember correctly, CCA's Doug Boyd voted FOR your Alabama Charterboat Cooperative didn't he?

Interesting to note that a commercial highliner like Guindon would want to pay for a lawsuit regarding *recreational* fisheries, especially since he was the lead plaintiff on the latest lawsuit that has basically shut down this year's *recreational* red snapper season. The guy is making millions off of the harvest of what we ALL own, so of course now he is in a position to fund lawsuits that would further increase his profits made from our Public Trust Resources if he can expand them into our *recreational *fisheries.

Yes - the divide and conquer strategies of the allocation-based EFPs in the _*recreational*_ fishery will not stand the light of day. 

There are better options on the table now that the regulators cannot ignore.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Ok you did not answer one question I asked. Yes after the CCA lost the lawsuit they pretty much had to vote for it huh? Do you think he would have voted that way if not for the Commercial lawsuit? The question mark indicates that I would like you to answer. Its called a discussion. Better options now? I was at everyday of the last Gulf Council meeting and I guessed I missed that. You referring to amendment 28? States going non-complaint? Please tell me of the better options that are on the table.


----------



## Tom Hilton

You first; "Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind."


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> You first; "Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind."


Led Zeppelin is reuniting and going on tour, Boston is going to open for them. Your turn. I think I have 5 valid straight forward questions waiting your open opinion. 

#1 Why hasn't CCA brought to the table anything relative to the gulf recreational fishermen as a whole?

#2 Why do you think the CCA sided with the NMFS and there failed management plan in the lawsuit? 

#3 Your convinced but unable to say how the Alabama Pilot plan is going to fail, in your opinion do you think the Head boat pilot program is going to fail also, if so why?

#4 Do you think Doug Boyd would have voted that way if not for the Commercial lawsuit?

#5 Please tell me of the better options that are on the table for ALL recreational fisherman as a whole?

Extra Credit #6 Why for years do you bash fish tags, and anyone wanting fish tags, you calling them catch share little devils, then come on this forum talking them up as the big fix in recreational fisheries like your a hero?


----------



## SnapperSlapper

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Ok I read this because my name is in it. To tell the truth I really don't understand what you tried to convey. I will tell you this. There is a big difference in picking a fight and standing up for your way of life. You push me and my, co-workers the CFH into a corner saying how great it is that all states go noncompliant and basically laugh at the CFH for not being able to harvest the fish that recreational boats can, then blame everything on us. Yea we will fight back. As Thomas Hilton has pointed out about 1001 times this is a public resource were arguing over. I stand for the guys that do not own boats, where the CFH is the only access to this public resource. Yes I profit off of this, its called my livelihood.


Life is hard.

A lot of recreational private boat owners also have experience in the charter business, know people in the charter business, and have sympathy for them. I am one of them. But I have no sympathy for assholes. And the problem is that some mouthy assholes that supposedly represent all charter boats have left a very, very bad taste in the mouths of the average recreational fishermen. 

You talk about you standing up to someone when they attack you. Fine. But the recreational fisherman hasn't attacked you. The commercial sector has. The environmental sector has. The federal powers that manage the fishery have. The recreational fisherman, by and large, has not. 

Despite this, you are trying to ally yourself with the three groups that do want to see your demise, all while you are attacking the group that technically you are a part of. 

The way you have conducted yourself and represented your group is sad. While I said earlier that many have sympathy for the charter segment, I feel pretty certain that many on this forum will not be sad if we see a few of them picking up cans on the side of the road in the near future. And it isn't because they were charter captains, but because they were confrontational assholes. 

I'm sure you don't care what I think, and I'm sure you don't like me. But that goes both ways.

I am curious though. If snapper isn't important to a successful charter operation as you have said multiple times in the past, why are you fighting so hard to be able to keep them?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

*"You talk about you standing up to someone when they attack you. Fine. But the recreational fisherman hasn't attacked you. The commercial sector has. The environmental sector has. The federal powers that manage the fishery have. The recreational fisherman, by and large, has not".*

In this statement you are correct with one sentence. *"The federal powers that manage the fishery have"*. Did you actually read the lawsuit? Tell the truth. If so can you tell me what the commercial sector sued the NMFS and CCA for?

Any one on this forum that supports state noncompliance has attacked me and the CFH with federal reef fish permits. Do you understand this or do I need to explain this to you?

Do you actually believe that a 30 or 40 day season is acceptable for anyone?

The commercial lawsuit has forced change in the fishery, believe it or not, don't really matter to me, but it will be the one thing in history that will force a better management plan for all recreational fishermen. For the CFH we want IFQ flexible fishery management plan. For the Private Rec it will probably bring fish tags. Both systems will be flexible, fully verifiable, and accountable and will give us both more days we can harvest red snapper. 

You asked why do I even care about red snapper? Easy, there the easiest, stupidest, most abundant fish in the northern gulf, a no brainer. Will I go out of business without them? No, will they make my life easier and my my non-boat owning customers happier? Yes

Oh and like you said *"Life is Hard"* if the things I say on this forum offend you, then you may want to find some tougher skin. I deal with real issues and look for real solutions, not fairy tails that big fishing lobby groups and tin-foil hat keyboard jockeys like to spin to keep you in a crisis.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Hold on just a second. Florida is about to go noncompliant and you will be able to fish at least 50 days with your family offshore on your boat for the all mighty red snapper. Mean while every federally permitted boat in the gulf of mexico will not have that same opportunity. Im sure you have a job somewhere, I guess. So its cool and were the bad guys, the ones with boat notes and expenses that you could not believe, that do and have made there living fishing in the gulf, and not able to keep THE easiest and most plentiful fish in the northern gulf. Now tell me again how your life sucks so bad? I really want to hear this. Please tell me what the CFH has done to effect your livelihood?


You do realize that noaa/nfs manufactured this crisis so that your groups plan could come fruition do you not? You also realize that Florida to going non-compliant is an outcome of noaa/nfs actions and not the other way around do you not? You also realize that it is noaa/nfs that continues to leave 30b in place even when the gulf council recommended doing away with it so that you cannot fish state waters when the state season is in?

Florida going non-compliant is not a sure thing in my mind by the way and if they do as cited above it is a product of where your groups actions in alignment with noaa/nfs has taken the fishery not the other way around.


----------



## Chapman5011

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Led Zeppelin is reuniting and going on tour, Boston is going to open for them. Your turn. I think I have 5 valid straight forward questions waiting your open opinion.
> 
> #1 Why hasn't CCA brought to the table anything relative to the gulf recreational fishermen as a whole?
> 
> #2 Why do you think the CCA sided with the NMFS and there failed management plan in the lawsuit?
> 
> #3 Your convinced but unable to say how the Alabama Pilot plan is going to fail, in your opinion do you think the Head boat pilot program is going to fail also, if so why?
> 
> #4 Do you think Doug Boyd would have voted that way if not for the Commercial lawsuit?
> 
> #5 Please tell me of the better options that are on the table for ALL recreational fisherman as a whole?
> 
> Extra Credit #6 Why for years do you bash fish tags, and anyone wanting fish tags, you calling them catch share little devils, then come on this forum talking them up as the big fix in recreational fisheries like your a hero?


When does the led zeppelin tickets go on sell. Or will they be playing on a barge for the next offshore reef sinking for free?


----------



## gator7_5

The CCA hasn't gone to battle for the panhandle of Fl since the 90's. All of their support (MONEY) comes form S and Central FL. Snapper limits are way down on their priority list. If they don't rock that boat with the NMFS in regards to snapper, they get more rights (like grouper) for the guys down south. It's not rocket science to anyone who has half a brain.


----------



## LopeAlong

I think I'm going to start lobbying Colorado St University to start restricting access to their data or #2 I'll make sure everyone has has the info to access it


----------



## CharlieT

"I have to make $175k before I can ever draw a paycheck. Trying swallowing those numbers and looking at an 11 day season. Yeah I'll still fish but my in season fuel bill is around $100per 6hr and outta season it's $300. I'm a fisherman I'm gonna catch fish it all just depends on how much fuel I have to burn. Snapper season trips are very profitable. "

And that my friends is the source of the problem between recs, cfh, & comm.

I'm of the opinion that fishing as a commercial business venture is on its way out. The recs and cfh will rule the day simply because they CAN exercise greater political sway...and they are just beginning to push back.


----------



## Tom Hilton

#1 Why hasn't CCA brought to the table anything relative to the gulf recreational fishermen as a whole? I can't answer that - I am not affiliated with CCA.

#2 Why do you think the CCA sided with the NMFS and there failed management plan in the lawsuit? I would assume it was because they could see that this lawsuit was going to further restrict recreational anglers unfairly,, but then again you will need to ask CCA that question.

#3 Your convinced but unable to say how the Alabama Pilot plan is going to fail, in your opinion do you think the Head boat pilot program is going to fail also, if so why? They are not fair and equitable. There is a legal case to be made, especially now, when the rest of the Gulf recreational anglers are looking a probable "0" day season and these headboats are able to fish all year long. There is also the issue of felony theft here - these 17 headboats got WAAAY more than their fair share of the quota, effectively, stealing those fish from the rest of us.

#4 Do you think Doug Boyd would have voted that way if not for the Commercial lawsuit? I don't know - I was disappointed in Mr. Boyd and Mr. Riley for voting the way they did - you will need to ask them.

#5 Please tell me of the better options that are on the table for ALL recreational fisherman as a whole? I will do that in my next post - it's too long to put here.

Extra Credit #6 Why for years do you bash fish tags, and anyone wanting fish tags, you calling them catch share little devils, then come on this forum talking them up as the big fix in recreational fisheries like your a hero? I was neither endorsing nor bashing the idea of fish tags on this recent post - I was fleshing out some issues and looking for feedback, which I got, and there was some GREAT things that came out of it.


----------



## Burnt Drag

We should be the ones sueing NOAA, NMFS, and the Gulf Council for opening this fall RS season and allowing us to go over the TAC. And we (CFH) should ask for around $80,000.00 each tax free. Us catching more than the TAC was intended. They had from July to October to play with their numbers.


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## LopeAlong

I stated this year that the federal permit holders should be able to sue all non compliant states. We have 2 things that every lawsuit needs. A wrong to have occurred and damages. Pretty easy to prove the damages and $80k per permit sounds about right


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## Tom Hilton

The states exercising their Constitutional right to manage their wildlife resources as they see fit is a bad thing? After all, Texas had a year-round state water red snapper season for as long as I can remember, even in the days when there was a 194 day 4 fish per person federal season. It ONLY became and issue AFTER the reauthorization of Magnuson in 2006, "coincidentally" which also introduced Catch Shares in the Gulf red snapper fishery.

I'm still not sure how the feds' can claim the right to count the fish caught in state waters when; 1) they don't have the mechanisms in place to do it, and 2) they don't have jurisdiction.

State seasons are not the problem. If you want to look at collecting damages, I would start looking at the federal data. The Headboat Pilot EFP was "gifted" at least double the poundage they SHOULD have received - that's felony theft.

Here is some examples the the data that would not stand the light of day in a courtroom based on data found in the Amendment 39 document;

* 14% of the Gulf red snapper is caught by the 75 Gulf headboats (including Texas headboats).
* 68% of Texas red snapper (including Texas state waters) is caught by the +_12 Texas headboats.
* 58% of ALL Gulf headboat red snapper is caught by Texas headboats - an amazing feat for 12 boats vs 63 headboats from the other 4 Gulf states who can make multiple trips/day!
* Texas headboats account for 4.8% EACH, while the other 63 headboats account for 0.67% EACH of the Total Gulf Headboat Landings - WOW, these Texas headboats are something, especially when noting that the fishing grounds are farther out and the weather is worse off of Texas than the rest of the Gulf!
* Texas charterboats number about double the Alabama charterboats, but they land about 1/10th of the poundage?

THIS IS THE DATA that they will use to apportion the fish.


----------



## Mac1528

Something smells fishy...and its not ARSs!!

Sent using taptalk


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

** 14% of the Gulf red snapper is caught by the 75 Gulf headboats (including Texas headboats).
* 68% of Texas red snapper (including Texas state waters) is caught by the +_12 Texas headboats.
* 58% of ALL Gulf headboat red snapper is caught by Texas headboats - an amazing feat for 12 boats vs 63 headboats from the other 4 Gulf states who can make multiple trips/day!
* Texas headboats account for 4.8% EACH, while the other 63 headboats account for 0.67% EACH of the Total Gulf Headboat Landings - WOW, these Texas headboats are something, especially when noting that the fishing grounds are farther out and the weather is worse off of Texas than the rest of the Gulf!
* Texas charterboats number about double the Alabama charterboats, but they land about 1/10th of the poundage?

THIS IS THE DATA that they will use to apportion the fish.*

Looks to me you have a problem with your state actually reporting there catches, HUH?? Ya think? The states all report to the NMFS the amount of fish the states catch. Then NMFS figures the rest, kinda hard to have any kind of regional management of any kind when you have a rouge state that has always said F the government. *The gulf wide IFQ will use two to three years of VMS and Electronic catch data before the permit receives an allocation of fish.* On the Charterboat side this will fix all the issues you have with actual data and allocation.


----------



## Tom Hilton

So your plan, "on the charterboat side" leaves the private recs twisting in the wind....GREAT plan.

What was your great news that was going to blow us away Ard? Certainly THAT'S not it, is it?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

*#1 Why hasn't CCA brought to the table anything relative to the gulf recreational fishermen as a whole? I can't answer that - I am not affiliated with CCA.

#2 Why do you think the CCA sided with the NMFS and there failed management plan in the lawsuit? I would assume it was because they could see that this lawsuit was going to further restrict recreational anglers unfairly,, but then again you will need to ask CCA that question.*


Just love how you bow down to the CCA and will never speak in a wicked tongue against them when you know that they have been one of the biggest reasons that ALL recreational anglers do not have an accountable system in place but OH HELL if any charter boat works on accountable plans for themselves. What ya scared of Thomas? You seem to have no problem calling a spade a spade, grow some balls and call them out.


----------



## Tom Hilton

Obviously you don't know my history with the CCA.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> So your plan, "on the charterboat side" leaves the private recs twisting in the wind....GREAT plan.
> 
> What was your great news that was going to blow us away Ard? Certainly THAT'S not it, is it?



Im in the Charter boat business Thomas, you really want me to use my Lobbying ability to design a plan for the private rec? I would think most guys on here would probably say no. I thought you had a great plan for the Recreational fisherman, add tags to that plan and the CFA will support it and help you push it, you can even attach your name to it and one day there might be a statue in your honor, (mullet and all) for saving the private rec. 

The big news was that I heard that Led Zeppelin was reuniting and boston was going to open for them in there first concert. Its just what I heard on the internet.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> Obviously you don't know my history with the CCA.



I guess not, it just seems to the common observer that you bow down to them on all the forums and steer clear of any conflict with the CCA. Im telling ya when they sided with the NMFS in that lawsuit they showed there true colors.


----------



## markw4321

Christine Perfect (Christine McVie) has rejoined Fleetwood Mac and they are touring. That is for real.


----------



## Tom Hilton

Ard,
Obviously, as with your cohorts, you are not a man of your word.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> Ard,
> Obviously, as with your cohorts, you are not a man of your word.


Ha! Oh yea I guess you know me well since you have never laid eyes on me and shook my hand. See this is why you are and will always just be a internet keyboard jockey (with Mullett). You don't play well with others, you wear a tin-hat, and you usually piss everyone off that could actually help you, or your recreational fishing buddys you say you care so much about. At every council meeting now I have walked into conversations about you with council people present telling Thomas Hilton stories. Some of the Council people were telling the stories! Point is you have ZERO political clout in the fishery management business. Your only fans are on the internet because you tell them what they want to hear, but if they depended on you to actually get out there and get something done they would be seriously disappointed, you see in the fishery management business your a joke!! Hey I don't agree with about anything that Bob Zales II says but!!!!!! He carries a big stick in the management business and people in the know actually will listen to him, because he's not a freak. You get it yet?


----------



## LopeAlong

Tom Hilton said:


> So your plan, "on the charterboat side" leaves the private recs twisting in the wind....GREAT plan.


Why would it not. Following your line of logic the EDF will now have to finance an untold amount of rec guys to get your tags plan through the channels. Then you can get rich off the EDF like Ard and I!


----------



## markw4321

If noaa/nfs believes that rpecreational fishermen are going to take 11 days to catch 5.3 million pounds or 49 percent of the allowed snapper catch that means according to noaa/nfs recreational fisherman if granted the other 51 percent could catch 11 million pounds of snapper in about 22 days.
Hahaha


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

markw4321 said:


> If noaa/nfs believes that rpecreational fishermen are going to take 11 days to catch 5.3 million pounds or 49 percent of the allowed snapper catch that means according to noaa/nfs recreational fisherman if granted the other 51 percent could catch 11 million pounds of snapper in about 22 days.
> Hahaha


And the members on here bash the Commercial Lawsuit against NOAA for that very thing. Kinda crazy, HUH?


----------



## Tom Hilton

Ard,
Let me guess which Council members you are talking to...uhm, let's see, Harlon Pearce? Any other EDF whores? You think THIS Gulf Council has ANY credibility? They have done such a GREAT job here. Yeah, right. I heard Corky Perret bragging about the fact that he has been at every single Gulf Council meeting since its inception. Something like 250 meetings or so. That's something to brag about? How much money has he been paid over the decades to get us where we are today??? He needs to go.

I don't give a damn about what they think about me - you guys have this tin foil hat, conspiracy theory bullshit thing going - you REALLY think people give you any credibility with that schtick? What a joke.

You guys joke about my boat sinking. Enough said about you and your character and anything that you have to say. You don't think people see through that? 

You intimated you would answer what your "revelation" would be after I answered the questions you asked; "Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind." 

Again, you blowhards, when asked for specifics refuse to give them. Typical. AND YOU are the credible person here? That's pretty rich.

"*The gulf wide IFQ will use two to three years of VMS and Electronic catch data before the permit receives an allocation of fish.* On the Charterboat side this will fix all the issues you have with actual data and allocation."

Kinda HARD to do when you are facing a "0" day season Ard - how does that work?

Oh, that's right, they are going to give the for-hire IFQ owners, *an elite group of fishermen*, who get to fish while the other 75% of the Gulf recreational fishermen are shut out.

GREAT Plan.


----------



## markw4321

Well did the lawsuit make it better or worse for charter for hire? It certainly made it worse for private fisherman


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> Ard,
> Let me guess which Council members you are talking to...uhm, let's see, Harlon Pearce? Any other EDF whores? You think THIS Gulf Council has ANY credibility? They have done such a GREAT job here. Yeah, right. I heard Corky Perret bragging about the fact that he has been at every single Gulf Council meeting since its inception. Something like 250 meetings or so. That's something to brag about? How much money has he been paid over the decades to get us where we are today??? He needs to go.
> 
> I don't give a damn about what they think about me - you guys have this tin foil hat, conspiracy theory bullshit thing going - you REALLY think people give you any credibility with that schtick? What a joke.
> 
> You guys joke about my boat sinking. Enough said about you and your character and anything that you have to say. You don't think people see through that?
> 
> You intimated you would answer what your "revelation" would be after I answered the questions you asked; "Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind."
> 
> Again, you blowhards, when asked for specifics refuse to give them. Typical. AND YOU are the credible person here? That's pretty rich.
> 
> "*The gulf wide IFQ will use two to three years of VMS and Electronic catch data before the permit receives an allocation of fish.* On the Charterboat side this will fix all the issues you have with actual data and allocation."
> 
> Kinda HARD to do when you are facing a "0" day season Ard - how does that work?
> 
> Oh, that's right, they are going to give the for-hire IFQ owners, *an elite group of fishermen*, who get to fish while the other 75% of the Gulf recreational fishermen are shut out.
> 
> GREAT Plan.



Easy Hilton, puff puff give. Don't blow a gasket, you just proved my point exactly. Thanks


----------



## Tom Hilton

Hey, I'm old school and tell it like it is - it may not be politically correct, but it is accurate - I understand why you don't like it.

I wouldn't like it either if I was doing what you are doing to the rest of the Gulf recreational fishermen.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

markw4321 said:


> Well did the lawsuit make it better or worse for charter for hire? It certainly made it worse for private fisherman


Mark the commercial guys sued over NMFS lack of accountability in the recreational sector and won. Oh yea CCA sided with the NMFS and lost too, can't leave them out. Your statement was making fun of NMFS inability of being able to tell how many fish are being caught. Yea that was what the lawsuit was over. Ok yep some growing pains for this year but at least the NMFS will have to start accepting fully accountable plans or they will be sued again and again they will lose. You see because of the CCAs presence in the Gulf Council they have had the ability to reject every accountable plan presented to the council, keeping the crisis going, getting more membership to fight the crisis. The lawsuit called them out, READ IT! The lawsuit is the beginning of longer seasons for all, give it some time and look past this year. We are at rock bottom in the Federal fisheries because of years and years of mis management. This is the start to fix it all.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> Hey, I'm old school and tell it like it is - it may not be politically correct, but it is accurate - I understand why you don't like it.
> 
> I wouldn't like it either if I was doing what you are doing to the rest of the Gulf recreational fishermen.



What Im, your saying TOM ARD, is doing to the rest of the recreational fishermen? Your such a joke to believe that "I" have any influence at all to how bad the NMFS has mis-managed the gulf of mexico, or anything thats going on right now. Like I said before I am involved in fixing the FMP for the CFH and If you were not such a freak you could maybe have an impact for the pure recreational guys. You have no political clout and to change things in government you kinda need that. If you have actually read the lawsuit against the NMFS you will see that the Federal Judge says very clear that the CHF and the pure rec will have different accountability needs and will need to be addressed differently. Thats because we are two different sectors. Even the M/S act addresses, commercial, CFH, and pure Rec. Just a matter of time before its official and the sectors will be separated.


----------



## Tom Hilton

You make statements like these, then refuse to explain them - you are the freak here dude. You are strong on providing EDF-scripted sound bites, but extremely weak at explaining them.

"Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind." 

"*The gulf wide IFQ will use two to three years of VMS and Electronic catch data before the permit receives an allocation of fish.* On the Charterboat side this will fix all the issues you have with actual data and allocation."

Kinda HARD to do when you are facing a "0" day season Ard - how does that work?

Oh, that's right, they are going to give the for-hire IFQ owners, *an elite group of fishermen*, who get to fish YEAR-ROUND while the other 75% of the Gulf recreational fishermen are shut out.

GREAT Plan.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> You make statements like these, then refuse to explain them - you are the freak here dude. You are strong on providing EDF-scripted sound bites, but extremely weak at explaining them.
> 
> "Whats going to happen next is going to blow your mind."
> 
> "*The gulf wide IFQ will use two to three years of VMS and Electronic catch data before the permit receives an allocation of fish.* On the Charterboat side this will fix all the issues you have with actual data and allocation."
> 
> Kinda HARD to do when you are facing a "0" day season Ard - how does that work?
> 
> Oh, that's right, they are going to give the for-hire IFQ owners, *an elite group of fishermen*, who get to fish YEAR-ROUND while the other 75% of the Gulf recreational fishermen are shut out.
> 
> GREAT Plan.


When they truly address the accountability issues in both sectors and have us fishing again past 11 days you will have your answer. The full IFQ plan will take a couple of years to develop, so will the tag system for the private rec. Once they make that split between the two, the CFH will have a certain percentage of allocation to fish, maybe this percentage will be after they put the VMS on all charter boats and actually get some real numbers, maybe this will be after state plans are put in place to see how many true recs are fishing for red snapper but it will happen. Once we are split and true data is in place then we will see the truth. The way I see it we are at rock bottom, no where to go but up. I see it starting here and moving in this direction.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Oh and whats going to happen next, your going to have to wait on. Its going to take a little time but its going to happen. I can not speak of it at this time.


----------



## Tom Hilton

So, how are the IFQs distributed initially in order for the for-hire fleet to fish? Those fish have to come from somewhere. Where?

How are the fish tags distributed, and who gets them? Will they be based on previous years catch histories? If so, then it tells us nothing.

Hard to be fishing when the federal season is 5 days or maybe 11 days or maybe 0 days. What is going to increase the federal season for the next 2 years to be able to get us any viable data?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> So, how are the IFQs distributed initially in order for the for-hire fleet to fish? Those fish have to come from somewhere. Where?
> 
> How are the fish tags distributed, and who gets them? Will they be based on previous years catch histories? If so, then it tells us nothing.
> 
> Hard to be fishing when the federal season is 5 days or maybe 11 days or maybe 0 days. What is going to increase the federal season for the next 2 years to be able to get us any viable data?


I think that is questions for NMFS and Roy Crabtree. Its way above my pay scale, ya think? Im just a fisherman, oh buy I plan to get ya plenty of viable data next year starting Jan 1st.


----------



## Tom Hilton

You're right - I guess the Gulf Council REALLY doesn't have anything to do with it - you're right - they are just there for show anyway - if the NMFS or Crabtree don't like the GC actions, they just don't approve them.

I kinda doubt you will be fishing January 1st - wanna bet?


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Tom Hilton said:


> You're right - I guess the Gulf Council REALLY doesn't have anything to do with it - you're right - they are just there for show anyway - if the NMFS or Crabtree don't like the GC actions, they just don't approve them.
> 
> I kinda doubt you will be fishing January 1st - wanna bet?



Oh hell yea I have ran over 30 trips already this year, you will lose. How much?


----------



## LopeAlong

AL EFP comes from 6.8% of the 5.39mil pounds based on an average weight of 9.8lbs. 63 6paks and 24 multi's. The plan doesn't take anything from anyone. Not sure if you know what it takes to get an entire state onboard a plan but it's happened. There sure has been a lot of unity going on lately. I think Tom and Tom should hug. Hilton, he's offered to by you a beer.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

We didn't need the Gulf Council's approval for the EFP, Roy could have signed off on it himself, or we could have went directly to the NMFS. After they lost a major lawsuit over non accountability you think there actually going to turn a fully verifiable and acceptable plan down? We have the money in the kitty to light them up if they do, and we will win and get our money back. You actually want to bet money on this Thomas? I guess you also want to bet that any football team in Florida and Alabama will lose to Texas A&M this year. Ask Capt Johnny Williams about that bet. He had to pay me $1 over last years game.


----------



## Burnt Drag

Fairwaterfishing said:


> When they truly address the accountability issues in both sectors and have us fishing again past 11 days you will have your answer. The full IFQ plan will take a couple of years to develop, so will the tag system for the private rec. Once they make that split between the two, the CFH will have a certain percentage of allocation to fish, maybe this percentage will be after they put the VMS on all charter boats and actually get some real numbers, maybe this will be after state plans are put in place to see how many true recs are fishing for red snapper but it will happen. Once we are split and true data is in place then we will see the truth. The way I see it we are at rock bottom, no where to go but up. I see it starting here and moving in this direction.


Tom, if it's feasable to put a VMS on my boat, why isn't it feasable to place a VMS on ALL boats fishing for RS in the GOM? :whistling:


----------



## tbaxl

Fairwaterfishing said:


> When they truly address the accountability issues in both sectors and have us fishing again past 11 days you will have your answer. The full IFQ plan will take a couple of years to develop, so will the tag system for the private rec. Once they make that split between the two, the CFH will have a certain percentage of allocation to fish, maybe this percentage will be after they put the VMS on all charter boats and actually get some real numbers, maybe this will be after state plans are put in place to see how many true recs are fishing for red snapper but it will happen. Once we are split and true data is in place then we will see the truth. The way I see it we are at rock bottom, no where to go but up. I see it starting here and moving in this direction.


I have not agreed with you on much, but you are correct we are just about at rock bottom. I think the tags are a good idea but as someone in an industry that deals with federal bureaucrats every day I worry about what happens down the road. For the record the Alabama recs have not been trying to go non-compliant and put you out of business as you say until now. As you know we do not have the depths to fish state waters but now it's just a case of civil disobedience, tuna taste far better anyway.


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

Burnt Drag said:


> Tom, if it's feasable to put a VMS on my boat, why isn't it feasable to place a VMS on ALL boats fishing for RS in the GOM? :whistling:



Maybe it is.


----------



## billin

*cant speak of whats next*

ok I will....
Orange beach CFH has a plan they want to receive 750 snapper tags for headboats and 350 tags for 6 packs. The rest of us would be stuck with a lotto system similar to a western ELK tag or Fl gator tag. This pilot program if it comes to be a reality will in theory serve as a model for the entire GOM. meanwhile the 9 mile rule will be overturned in Texas and Fl while La will be denied. 


Nice plan aint it......


I am ashamed of the CFH and commercial fleet. Here in the deep south we are predominantly republican. but a small minority of Democrats and yes like it or not you are dues paying Union member moving in unison toward a common goal that excludes others and benefits only the dues paying members of your association. Therefore by definition you are a physical Democrat. Yet you beat your chest and shout go Bama all the while waving a rebel flag. Bout time you guys got real what you are really doing is waving a white flag yelling PLEASE Obama bring me more government cheese. Make no mistake about it a hand out is a hand out and TAC allotment is a hand out period.


----------



## CharlieT

Found an interesting blog that sums this pretty well...without all the personal attacks.

http://oneanglersvoyage.blogspot.com/2014/03/red-snapper-anglers-embarrass-us-all.html


----------



## gator7_5

CharlieT said:


> Found an interesting blog that sums this pretty well...without all the personal attacks.
> 
> http://oneanglersvoyage.blogspot.com/2014/03/red-snapper-anglers-embarrass-us-all.html


Pretty well?

That author is a complete dolt.. or a pawn.. And he resides in NY.

He completely misses the gripe of every recreational angler which is that the NMFS and their scientists drastically underestimate THE NUMBER OF SNAPPER IN THE GULF. 

His bullets are so far off the mark, it's embarrassingly transparent he has absolutely no clue about the snapper fishery..


----------



## Harbison

11 days, I heard 9, is all about catch shares. As soon as we are forced to buy back OUR fish, watch the stocks make an instant recovery.


----------



## feelin' wright

gator7_5 said:


> Pretty well?
> 
> That author is a complete dolt.. or a pawn.. And he resides in NY.
> 
> He completely misses the gripe of every recreational angler which is that the NMFS and their scientists drastically underestimate THE NUMBER OF SNAPPER IN THE GULF.
> 
> His bullets are so far off the mark, it's embarrassingly transparent he has absolutely no clue about the snapper fishery..



No kidding if this was not written by a commercial fisherman than I would be amazed.


----------



## Chapman5011

billin said:


> ok I will....
> Orange beach CFH has a plan they want to receive 750 snapper tags for headboats and 350 tags for 6 packs. The rest of us would be stuck with a lotto system similar to a western ELK tag or Fl gator tag. This pilot program if it comes to be a reality will in theory serve as a model for the entire GOM. meanwhile the 9 mile rule will be overturned in Texas and Fl while La will be denied.
> 
> 
> Nice plan aint it......
> 
> 
> I am ashamed of the CFH and commercial fleet. Here in the deep south we are predominantly republican. but a small minority of Democrats and yes like it or not you are dues paying Union member moving in unison toward a common goal that excludes others and benefits only the dues paying members of your association. Therefore by definition you are a physical Democrat. Yet you beat your chest and shout go Bama all the while waving a rebel flag. Bout time you guys got real what you are really doing is waving a white flag yelling PLEASE Obama bring me more government cheese. Make no mistake about it a hand out is a hand out and TAC allotment is a hand out period.




.


.
Cheese stops me up and makes my terds hard. And I think about the same of Obama......

But that is for a different thread

.


----------



## gator7_5

feelin' wright said:


> No kidding if this was not written by a commercial fisherman than I would be amazed.


Close, CCA Rep. CCA is no friend of a NW FL recreational fisherman.


----------



## markw4321

billin said:


> ok I will....
> Orange beach CFH has a plan they want to receive 750 snapper tags for headboats and 350 tags for 6 packs. The rest of us would be stuck with a lotto system similar to a western ELK tag or Fl gator tag. This pilot program if it comes to be a reality will in theory serve as a model for the entire GOM. meanwhile the 9 mile rule will be overturned in Texas and Fl while La will be denied.
> 
> 
> Nice plan aint it......
> 
> 
> I am ashamed of the CFH and commercial fleet. Here in the deep south we are predominantly republican. but a small minority of Democrats and yes like it or not you are dues paying Union member moving in unison toward a common goal that excludes others and benefits only the dues paying members of your association. Therefore by definition you are a physical Democrat. Yet you beat your chest and shout go Bama all the while waving a rebel flag. Bout time you guys got real what you are really doing is waving a white flag yelling PLEASE Obama bring me more government cheese. Make no mistake about it a hand out is a hand out and TAC allotment is a hand out period.



Billin 

Do you have a link to that plan...surely the orange beach charter association wouldn't propose such a thing...I mean some of them are members here...


----------



## DI 310

markw4321 said:


> Billin
> 
> Do you have a link to that plan...surely the orange beach charter association wouldn't propose such a thing...I mean some of them are members here...


I agree Mark-Not much of a plan when a six pack quota will be used in 30 days


----------



## lastcast

How many days in a row, can a (2) limit be caught in State waters?


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## Tom Hilton

Harbison said:


> 11 days, I heard 9, is all about catch shares. As soon as we are forced to buy back OUR fish, watch the stocks make an instant recovery.


That is a spot-on analysis Capt.


----------



## billin

*here ya go Mark*

*Alabama charterboat pilot program could fundamentally change how red snapper are managed in *










A new day may have dawned on management of red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico.
An Alabama-based, two-year pilot program that would give the state's entire charterboat fleet the freedom to catch a predetermined number of red snapper whenever they wanted got a second life and the blessing of the full Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council Wednesday afternoon.
The program garnered so much support during a public hearing Wednesday afternoon at the council's meeting in Baton Rouge that National Marine Fisheries Service Southeast Regional Office Administrator Roy Crabtree suggested it may be time to consider options for implementing a similar program in the for-hire sector Gulfwide.
"I think we are at a point where I haven't seen as big a mess as we are in," Crabtree said. "There are fundamental problems that are going to require that we change how we are managing the fishery and measuring the catches."
Crabtree went on to say that he believed the Alabama pilot program could be a good test for a Gulfwide system and that the council should begin the process now of looking at options to create a for-hire individual fishing quota program instead of waiting for results generated by the pilot after it ends two years down the road.
"While this test program in ongoing, this council should be focusing on working on a for-hire IFQ options paper . That would be a good starting point, then we can begin getting the public involved, get their comments and in two years we could be ready to roll on something Gulfwide," Crabtree said. "It could be time to really start thinking this thing through."
Tuesday, Tom Steber, president of the Alabama Charter Fishing Association Cooperative, had asked the council's Reef Fish Committee to endorse the cooperative's request for the NMFS to approve an exempted fishing permit that would allow six-pack and multi-passenger charter boats to fish outside of federal red snapper season closures.
The cooperative's EFP request closely mirrors a headboat pilot program that began Jan. 1. In its short lifetime, the headboat program has already been deemed a success by the 17 such participating boats across the Gulf.
It's goals are to:
* Assess whether a cooperative program can achieve conservation and management goals more effectively than the existing management system.
* Test new electronic data collection methods and assess their effectiveness.
* Assess economic impacts between Alabama's cooperative program and the existing charter for-hire industry.
* Develop, administer and test whether regional management is a feasible plan for management.
Steber said the for-hire charter sector has been asking for guidance and assistance to implement better accountability measures, but has gone basically ignored. The cooperative's plan and EFP request are their solutions to build accountability into their part of the fishery, he said.
Participation in the cooperative is expected to be 100 percent of the 90-boat Alabama-based fleet, that includes vessels from Orange Beach to Dauphin Island. Of the total, one vessel is owned by a Mississippi resident who runs out of Orange Beach and 15 are from Florida.
Those out-of-state boats all have valid Alabama charter licenses, Steber said.
The reef committee motion to endorse the cooperative's request failed by one vote.
In a rare move, the full council agreed to reconsider the cooperative's request immediately following the public hearing during which many people who spoke - recreational and commercial -- were in favor of granting the EFP.
The overwhelming consensus among those who spoke in favor said the pilot program would be a first step toward testing whether a large group of for-hire boats could cooperatively manage their designated share of quota and if such a system could bring the level of consistency charter captains have said is necessary to effectively operate their businesses.
Proponents also said it would interject accountability into a segment of the recreational sector since the pilot-program includes vessel-specific reporting requirements every time the captain leaves and returns to port.
Lack of such accountability measures was one aspect of current federal management of the recreational sector cited by a federal judge in a ruling that in essence said failing to prevent the sector from exceeding its quota in six of the last seven years violated national standards in the Magnuson-Stevens Act, and was therefore illegal.
That legal decision resulted in a Gulf Council Reef Fish Committee recommendation to the full council to approve an emergency rule to reduce the 2014 season to 11 days from the 40-day season fishermen had been expecting.
The full council is expected to vote on that recommendation on Thursday.
MSA sets regulations requiring the fair and equitable allocation of all of the country's fisheries and management of those species to their maximum sustainable yield.
Over the pilot program's two-year test period, the cooperative is asking to be allocated 6.8 percent of the recreational sector's current 5.39 million pound quota or 366,520 pounds per year. The percentage is the average of annual red snapper landings by the Alabama charter fleet between 2011 and 2013.
Steber said the poundage allocation would then be converted into number of fish. Individual vessel fish shares would be allocated depending on whether the boat was a "six-pack" boat with a maximum capacity of six passengers or a multi-passenger charterboat able to carry seven passengers and up.
All participating vessels must have a federal reef fish permit. Captains would be able to book trips at any time of the year and continue doing so until their fish share was used up.
After the vote and in anticipation of what he believed would likely be a motion to begin looking at options for creating a for-hire individual fishing quota program, Crabtree directed NMFS staff to round up documents related to past discussions of beginning such a program ready for Thursday's meeting.
"If you think this is a good thing, then we need to come in here tomorrow (Thursday) and begin looking at putting together a charrterboat IFQ program," Crabtree told council members.


----------



## billin

*funny*

you guys are killin me its called a search engine so quick to discredit kinda makes you wonder who is behind some of the screen names now doesn't it


----------



## DI 310

billin said:


> you guys are killin me its called a search engine so quick to discredit kinda makes you wonder who is behind some of the screen names now doesn't it


 
Yep, I have seen that but did not know how they were going to divide them up. That was what I was referring to .


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## Fairwaterfishing

DI 310 said:


> I agree Mark-Not much of a plan when a six pack quota will be used in 30 days


 It could be used in 30 days or 100 days, just depends how you plan to use it. You take 350 fish and just catch 5 fish per trip you will get 70 trips out of it. Most of us plan on spreading out the snapper over all of our trips in a year. Even with a 30 day snapper season of the past we still run over 125 trips in a season. Most of us will spread the fish out and get past the all mighty red snapper as a part of our main business plan. Use them when we need them and not use them when other things bite.


----------



## markw4321

billin said:


> you guys are killin me its called a search engine so quick to discredit kinda makes you wonder who is behind some of the screen names now doesn't it


My post was sarcastic in nature. I had not seen the numbers broken out before. No intent to discredit.


----------



## billin

*divided up*

really fairwater this plan seems fair to you guys.

How about this why not divide the tags amongst every registered boat in AL over 23 feet. Then have a Lotto. Our why not just sell tags to the public. Then you can root little pig or starve like the rest of us. Why do you deserve your own government hand out please explain.


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## DI 310

Fairwaterfishing said:


> It could be used in 30 days or 100 days, just depends how you plan to use it. You take 350 fish and just catch 5 fish per trip you will get 70 trips out of it. Most of us plan on spreading out the snapper over all of our trips in a year. Even with a 30 day snapper season of the past we still run over 125 trips in a season. Most of us will spread the fish out and get past the all mighty red snapper as a part of our main business plan. Use them when we need them and not use them when other things bite.


Just asking - How much more percentage/ or more tags do the multi passenger guys get, or everybody get the same(about 350)


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## sniperpeeps

The same as the commercial boats were gifted 51% now the fed permitted charter boats will be gifted a percentage of the TAC. This will still leave the rec guys swinging in the wind as now they can say the the commercial and charters are "accountable" and the rec guys are still overfishing. How can you tout a 2 year pilot program a success when it has not even been 6 months? Also, how do they come up with the number of tags for all these boats? From non-existent data? This whole thing smells of back door deals and politics all in the name of profit rather than real fisheries management.


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## sniperpeeps

What I am also curious about is that now with 3 states non-compliant, certainly just our state seasons will "overfish" the TAC. So where is your allotment coming from if we overfish our TAC for the next few years in our state season?


----------



## gator7_5

sniperpeeps said:


> What I am also curious about is that now with 3 states non-compliant, certainly just our state seasons will "overfish" the TAC. So where is your allotment coming from if we overfish our TAC for the next few years in our state season?


Good question. Maybe we can sue the Gov, since then, the commercial guys and sellout charters are overfishing Snapper.


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## johnf

What confuses me about the whole deal is that if I can buy a license to fish and can only posses so many fish, what gives the commercial guys the right to have tons of fish in their possession. 

Could all the charter captains just buy commercial licenses and have paying crew members catching with poles?


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## Kim

Its interesting to note that the posts by advocates of IFQs/SOS and all their online propaganda and recommendations to the fisheries councils all tout how much these programs will give accountability to fisheries managers enabling them to maintain sustainable fisheries.

It's true! Sure those programs will give the fisheries managers solid numbers to work with (minus the cheaters) but there is probably some formula used to account for that. However at the same time those same programs will gift a certain percentage to the IFQ holders. Once they are given in perpetuity they will be just about impossible to be taken back and restored into the public trust. These gifts will be a valuable commodity to the recipients, they can fish with those IFQs all year long until their quota is met. For the right price they could lease their IFQs to someone else to generate income or they could sell them for an outrageous price. If you need a shock to the system, just Google IFQ Brokerage houses and you will be amazed.

Meanwhile the recreational anglers are moaning and groaning and not doing anything proactive to preserve the tradition of recreational fishing. This suits the commercial sector and the SOS/IFQ proponents very well because the recreational sector is the only place where there is no real accountability and formula to estimate the catch are used. We are still complaining about flawed science, snapper populations so thick we can't get our bait to the bottom and the commercial guys are laughing all the way to the bank and the SOS/IFQ guys are rubbing their hands in anticipation of the big payoff. Why you ask? Simple, any adjustment made to the TAC is going to be made on the recreational portion because those guys have an allotment that can't be taken away and if they stay within their quotas they are legal! That means the no matter the reason why a fishery is being overfished it will be taken out of the recreational portion until it no longer exists before action will be taken against the gifted TAC sectors.

We recreational anglers really do need some sort of accountability system because that is the only way we will stay in the game. The first thing that it would do would be to prevent another significant portion of our public resources from being taken from us and gifted to private enterprise. Some people are saying that this will be used against us if we are in fact overfishing, that's a good thing if it does because in the long run the fisheries will be managed for sustainability. On the other hand if we aren't catching the recreational TAC and adjustment of the TAC is required to manage sustainability, we would have the math behind us to justify the reduction of the commercial TAC as well, rather than just the recreational TAC. The other added benefit to us would be that we could show how many millions of recreational anglers are fishing for the recreational TAC and when the governing councils are trying to figure out where to allocate the additional TAC we would have math and science to back up our requests for increases in TAC for our ever growing population of recreational anglers.

The commercial sector and the proponents of IFQ/SOS are not thinking in just the here and now. They are thinking decades into the future with the knowledge that their quotas will become a more and more valuable commodity as our population increases. (If you didn't Google IFQ Brokerage earlier, now is a good time to do so) As the population grows the demands on our food sources will grow proportionally as will the value of those sources. It's good money in the bank now but in twenty years it will be worth much more because one thing is for certain, people have to eat and demand will drive the prices up.

The commercial and SOS/IFQ sectors have us beat with lobbyists and organizations providing endless funding but by acting as a collective group we recreational anglers have something they don't and that is millions upon millions of registered voters. If we all voted as a block we could keep people in office that are supporting our cause or replace them with someone who will. Think about it.


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## sumner44

When I hear about "HEADBOATS",it equates to me many charters,,twice a day with several customers,fishing as close to shore as possible( gas and fuel).It tells me that the close reefs accessable to smaller craft,when the waters are right(?),are cleaned of reef fish,"specially" snapper....Wheres the logic and OPPORTUNITIES for the 'sports ' fisherman.


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## Burnt Drag

Kim, what I don't understand is how the EDF and the Feds think that seperating the sectors will bring accountability to anyone besides the CFH fleet. I feel that the EDF and NOAA fisheries have a stake in the VMS industry. It would be interesting to view the stock portfolios of those pushing for S.S.


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## markw4321

Fairwaterfishing said:


> It could be used in 30 days or 100 days, just depends how you plan to use it. You take 350 fish and just catch 5 fish per trip you will get 70 trips out of it. Most of us plan on spreading out the snapper over all of our trips in a year. Even with a 30 day snapper season of the past we still run over 125 trips in a season. Most of us will spread the fish out and get past the all mighty red snapper as a part of our main business plan. Use them when we need them and not use them when other things bite.


 
that only seems like enough fish per boat to "wet your beak". The rest must be planned for later when the concept gets off the ground and gets up and running.


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## billin

*Gulf council minutes*

Read the minutes from last nights meeting. The Bama crowd plan is spelled out


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## markw4321

billin said:


> Read the minutes from last nights meeting. The Bama crowd plan is spelled out


Can you provide a link to the minutes. Thanks.


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## cape horn 24

750+350=1100 total all 90 boats will be included, I know it's not an exact number because I don't know the break down of boats(6 pack\or more than 7 passengers)
1100/90=12 per boat, that could be 1 trip or maybe 2. So will it even be a benefit ? Or does the CFH group eat their own and determine who gets the lion share of the tags and who doesn't? or am I totally off base?


----------



## sniperpeeps

I still want to know where they are getting their percentage of the TAC from. You know, since the non-compliant states will certainly overfish the recreational TAC. Hard to have a pilot program with no fish.....


----------



## markw4321

billin said:


> *Alabama charterboat pilot program could fundamentally change how red snapper are managed in *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new day may have dawned on management of red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico.
> An Alabama-based, two-year pilot program that would give the state's entire charterboat fleet the freedom to catch a predetermined number of red snapper whenever they wanted got a second life and the blessing of the full Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council Wednesday afternoon.
> The program garnered so much support during a public hearing Wednesday afternoon at the council's meeting in Baton Rouge that National Marine Fisheries Service Southeast Regional Office Administrator Roy Crabtree suggested it may be time to consider options for implementing a similar program in the for-hire sector Gulfwide.
> "I think we are at a point where I haven't seen as big a mess as we are in," Crabtree said. "There are fundamental problems that are going to require that we change how we are managing the fishery and measuring the catches."
> Crabtree went on to say that he believed the Alabama pilot program could be a good test for a Gulfwide system and that the council should begin the process now of looking at options to create a for-hire individual fishing quota program instead of waiting for results generated by the pilot after it ends two years down the road.
> "While this test program in ongoing, this council should be focusing on working on a for-hire IFQ options paper . That would be a good starting point, then we can begin getting the public involved, get their comments and in two years we could be ready to roll on something Gulfwide," Crabtree said. "It could be time to really start thinking this thing through."
> Tuesday, Tom Steber, president of the Alabama Charter Fishing Association Cooperative, had asked the council's Reef Fish Committee to endorse the cooperative's request for the NMFS to approve an exempted fishing permit that would allow six-pack and multi-passenger charter boats to fish outside of federal red snapper season closures.
> The cooperative's EFP request closely mirrors a headboat pilot program that began Jan. 1. In its short lifetime, the headboat program has already been deemed a success by the 17 such participating boats across the Gulf.
> It's goals are to:
> * Assess whether a cooperative program can achieve conservation and management goals more effectively than the existing management system.
> * Test new electronic data collection methods and assess their effectiveness.
> * Assess economic impacts between Alabama's cooperative program and the existing charter for-hire industry.
> * Develop, administer and test whether regional management is a feasible plan for management.
> Steber said the for-hire charter sector has been asking for guidance and assistance to implement better accountability measures, but has gone basically ignored. The cooperative's plan and EFP request are their solutions to build accountability into their part of the fishery, he said.
> Participation in the cooperative is expected to be 100 percent of the 90-boat Alabama-based fleet, that includes vessels from Orange Beach to Dauphin Island. Of the total, one vessel is owned by a Mississippi resident who runs out of Orange Beach and 15 are from Florida.
> Those out-of-state boats all have valid Alabama charter licenses, Steber said.
> The reef committee motion to endorse the cooperative's request failed by one vote.
> In a rare move, the full council agreed to reconsider the cooperative's request immediately following the public hearing during which many people who spoke - recreational and commercial -- were in favor of granting the EFP.
> The overwhelming consensus among those who spoke in favor said the pilot program would be a first step toward testing whether a large group of for-hire boats could cooperatively manage their designated share of quota and if such a system could bring the level of consistency charter captains have said is necessary to effectively operate their businesses.
> Proponents also said it would interject accountability into a segment of the recreational sector since the pilot-program includes vessel-specific reporting requirements every time the captain leaves and returns to port.
> Lack of such accountability measures was one aspect of current federal management of the recreational sector cited by a federal judge in a ruling that in essence said failing to prevent the sector from exceeding its quota in six of the last seven years violated national standards in the Magnuson-Stevens Act, and was therefore illegal.
> That legal decision resulted in a Gulf Council Reef Fish Committee recommendation to the full council to approve an emergency rule to reduce the 2014 season to 11 days from the 40-day season fishermen had been expecting.
> The full council is expected to vote on that recommendation on Thursday.
> MSA sets regulations requiring the fair and equitable allocation of all of the country's fisheries and management of those species to their *maximum sustainable yield.*
> *Over the pilot program's two-year test period, the cooperative is asking to be allocated 6.8 percent of the recreational sector's current 5.39 million pound quota or 366,520 pounds per year. The percentage is the average of annual red snapper landings by the Alabama charter fleet between 2011 and 2013.*
> Steber said the poundage allocation would then be converted into number of fish. Individual vessel fish shares would be allocated depending on whether the boat was a "six-pack" boat with a maximum capacity of six passengers or a multi-passenger charterboat able to carry seven passengers and up.
> All participating vessels must have a federal reef fish permit. Captains would be able to book trips at any time of the year and continue doing so until their fish share was used up.
> After the vote and in anticipation of what he believed would likely be a motion to begin looking at options for creating a for-hire individual fishing quota program, Crabtree directed NMFS staff to round up documents related to past discussions of beginning such a program ready for Thursday's meeting.
> "If you think this is a good thing, then we need to come in here tomorrow (Thursday) and begin looking at putting together a charrterboat IFQ program," Crabtree told council members.


 
There is talk about fish tags 750 snapper tags for headboats and 350 tags for 6 packs with 90 boats involved. then the article above describes *366,520 pounds per year. *

750 snapper tags for EACH headboat at 7 pounds per fish equals 5250 pounds per head boat per year. 350 tags for Each 6 pack charter at 7 pounds per fish equals 2,450 pounds of snapper allocated to each alabama six pack charter boat with a federal permit. 

if you split out the headboats and charter boats (head boats + charter boats = 90 total) that are federally permitted in alabama and added it all the poundage my guess is that would equate to the *366,520 pounds per year total that would be allocated to these 90 boats under the plan.*


----------



## Fairwaterfishing

markw4321 said:


> that only seems like enough fish per boat to "wet your beak". The rest must be planned for later when the concept gets off the ground and gets up and running.


We do catch a lot of other fish Mark. We have been making it just fine over the last few years with about a month long red snapper season. So basically one month of our customers are able to keep a red snapper, were planning on spreading the fish out over the whole year, so they all can keep some. An IFQ system is the most flexible system we have found for charter boats, Im sure every boat will used them a little differently, that is what makes it so appealing to every one. Oh and were multi-passengers not head boats. Head boats will not be in this program.


----------



## markw4321

Fairwaterfishing said:


> We do catch a lot of other fish Mark. We have been making it just fine over the last few years with about a month long red snapper season. So basically one month of our customers are able to keep a red snapper, were planning on spreading the fish out over the whole year, so they all can keep some. An IFQ system is the most flexible system we have found for charter boats, Im sure every boat will used them a little differently, that is what makes it so appealing to every one. Oh and were multi-passengers not head boats. Head boats will not be in this program.


 
Thanks for the clairification.


----------



## Tom Hilton

Fairwaterfishing said:


> We do catch a lot of other fish Mark. We have been making it just fine over the last few years with about a month long red snapper season. So basically one month of our customers are able to keep a red snapper, were planning on spreading the fish out over the whole year, so they all can keep some. An IFQ system is the most flexible system we have found for charter boats, Im sure every boat will used them a little differently, that is what makes it so appealing to every one. Oh and were multi-passengers not head boats. Head boats will not be in this program.


The Plan is, according to Ard, is to ultimately go to a *MULTI-SPECIES FOR-HIRE IFQ PROGRAM.*

It's not just about red snapper and never has been - it's about private individuals/corporations being able to control and skim $$ off of every fish we catch.

The rest of us will be forced to enter into a lottery system similar to western Elk or Florida gator to get a permit to go fish for snapper, grouper, or whatever.


----------



## slayerextreme

*just my thoughts*

if any single group, business, for hire, conglomerate, commercial, 6-pack or any other named or unnamed entity can go out and profit from a resource that I as a tax paying citizen of this country am not allowed to go after...they should be considered thieves....its a resource, not one that is only meant to profit from....I bought my own boat so I could fish when I wanted to, how I wanted to and with who I wanted to.....and now we not only have this ASS-CLOWN Roy Crabtree mucking up our fisheries, we have a privileged group that feel that this resource should be set aside for them and only them to profit from.....this is just old fashion greed, and it is sickenly pathetic!!!!...

a simple way to fix all of this is to make ALL reef fish a GAME SPECIES!!!!

If I'm not allowed to fish for and keep certain species, I damn sure dont want to go to the local Kroger and see than same fish for sell knowing that somebody made a profit from it.....enuff of this commercial/for hire vs the recreational fisherman horse shit....

I for one wont shed a single tear for any commercial or for hire group if and when a fishery is entirely shut down to all...and when the bank comes to collect all the assets from your business, just try and recall that it didnt have to be US against THEM....we had a common enemy, but you chose PROFIT over doing right.....

And I feel pretty safe saying that a lot of private boat owners/recreational fisherman feel the same way .......

to hell with quotas, IFQ, catch shares and anything else that creates a divide among fishermen....and any group that goes along with these tactics


----------



## cape horn 24

Mark, thanks for the math, when I read Billins' post I thought the total was 750/350 for all, not per boat that's why my math and thinking was way off.


----------



## AndyS

slayerextreme said:


> if any single group, business, for hire, conglomerate, commercial, 6-pack or any other named or unnamed entity can go out and profit from a resource that I as a tax paying citizen of this country am not allowed to go after...they should be considered thieves....its a resource, not one that is only meant to profit from....I bought my own boat so I could fish when I wanted to, how I wanted to and with who I wanted to.....and now we not only have this ASS-CLOWN Roy Crabtree mucking up our fisheries, we have a privileged group that feel that this resource should be set aside for them and only them to profit from.....this is just old fashion greed, and it is sickenly pathetic!!!!...
> 
> a simple way to fix all of this is to make ALL reef fish a GAME SPECIES!!!!
> 
> If I'm not allowed to fish for and keep certain species, I damn sure dont want to go to the local Kroger and see than same fish for sell knowing that somebody made a profit from it.....enuff of this commercial/for hire vs the recreational fisherman horse shit....
> 
> I for one wont shed a single tear for any commercial or for hire group if and when a fishery is entirely shut down to all...and when the bank comes to collect all the assets from your business, just try and recall that it didnt have to be US against THEM....we had a common enemy, but you chose PROFIT over doing right.....
> 
> And I feel pretty safe saying that a lot of private boat owners/recreational fisherman feel the same way .......
> 
> to hell with quotas, IFQ, catch shares and anything else that creates a divide among fishermen....and any group that goes along with these tactics


You can't go to Colorado & shoot an elk out of season on a guided hunt with a license the guide service bought at a volume discount, can you?


----------



## Telum Pisces

AndyS said:


> You can't go to Colorado & shoot an elk out of season on a guided hunt with a license the guide service bought at a volume discount, can you?


And a commercial hunter cannot either. It's a game species.


----------



## tank1949

I posted this under general heading. Who is getting the kickbacks???? It is no secret that salt water recreational fishermen and women have once again been screwed over by bureaucrats who have potatoes for brains, or they are just plain "dirty" and on the "take" from lobbyists and foreign governments. The recent announcement of the idiotic red snapper season state and federal regulations is a classic example that supports my statement. As with many, I don't have a problem with state seasons and limits, but to prohibit additional species being caught coinciding with only 2 snapper catches per person is a waste of fuel and time. At 4 bucks a gallon, perhaps this is what the bureaucrats are planning? It is bad enough that the federal water's season is now limited to less than 2 weeks. BUT WAIT, THERE IS MORE!!!! Now, the bureaucrats are stating that federal waters extend out from 9 to 200 miles? And, all the time for decades, I was told international waters was after 12 miles. So, if that was the case, we tax payers could begin fishing again after 12 miles. Think that maybe that foreign lobbyists had anything to do with this stretch? You can bet they will be harvesting OUR snappers while we get the bill!!!!! Perhaps this is what bureaucrats like the FFW and EPA want: CONTROL . Were our fishing regulations written by the same bureaucrats who wrote Obamacare?????? No wonder we are broke! I urge all of you to contact Congressman Jeff miller's assistant Sheilah Bowman [email protected].


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## slayerextreme

AndyS said:


> You can't go to Colorado & shoot an elk out of season on a guided hunt with a license the guide service bought at a volume discount, can you?


Now that dont make no damn sense!!!!! I've been to Colorado on 2 separate trips elk hunting...and other than buying the proper tags for deer & elk (bull and cow tags) I havent had to pay no damn "for hire guide"...I hunted where I wanted to, with who I wanted to during the time I wanted to...

I hope you are not of the mind that the elk in Colorado belong to the guides and outfitters and should only be hunted if they are allowed to profit, if so, you are part of the problem and should be ignored during any logic based conversation with regards to working on solutions to fix the current mess we have with GOM Red Snapper issues....

Your hypothesis is invalid and unsupportable....that is unless facts and common sense are to be left out of your thought processes, then your right on the mark.


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## billin

*Elk tag*

One distinction here to prevent confusion.Hunting tags are given out based. On a specific geographical area and on some private ranches yes you can purchase tags from a land owner not sure about Colorado also you can purchase a farm raised elk a kill it without a tag in a high fence. The analogy used was in reference to the draw system in general be it a elk moose gator red snapper etc. so no further need do hair splitting 


I am interested in the union locals from Alabama though. How bout it guys where's the poundage coming from for your little plan? Thought we were gonna run out cause of Fl,Tx and god bless La . So where guys . You can put down the union made signs long enough to respond no need to try and sign up for your free health care today the website is down as usual  I guess the IT company is on a union regulated work stoppage again.


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## tank1949

I swear the same folks who wrote Obamacare are manage OUR fishing. As I stated earlier, who is getting the kickbacks??????? Until the average person demands accountability, we will continue taking it in the shorts. God bless!


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## AndyS

slayerextreme said:


> Now that dont make no damn sense!!!!! I've been to Colorado on 2 separate trips elk hunting...and other than buying the proper tags for deer & elk (bull and cow tags) I havent had to pay no damn "for hire guide"...I hunted where I wanted to, with who I wanted to during the time I wanted to...
> 
> I hope you are not of the mind that the elk in Colorado belong to the guides and outfitters and should only be hunted if they are allowed to profit, if so, you are part of the problem and should be ignored during any logic based conversation with regards to working on solutions to fix the current mess we have with GOM Red Snapper issues....
> 
> Your hypothesis is invalid and unsupportable....that is unless facts and common sense are to be left out of your thought processes, then your right on the mark.


I'm thinking you missed my point (if I had one.) 

Can a guided hunter in Colorado shoot an Elk _out of season_ on public lands when you can't as an individual hunter? 

Unless I'm misinformed, that's what they're proposing with this idea of letting Charter For Hires fish snapper with their customers year round while I have to stick to an 11 day season.

I've no problem with people who pay somebody to take 'em out on a boat to catch some snappers ... but they oughta have to stick to the same seasons & limits as I do.


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## DI 310

AndyS said:


> I'm thinking you missed my point (if I had one.)
> 
> Can a guided hunter in Colorado shoot an Elk out of season on public lands when you can't as an individual hunter?
> 
> That's what they're proposing with this idea of letting Charter For Hire's fish snapper with their customers year round while I have to stick to an 11 day season.


th

I realize that the CFH and the head boat program got a percentage of the ACL but unless the council/NMFS changes the wording in the EFP's they can not fish year round. They can only fish until the ACL is met. The way I understand as with the head boat program started 01/01/14 , so they have to have their allotment caught by 06/11/14( if that is when the ACL is met)I think the CFH IFQ's , whenever it starts will be the same.


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## tank1949

AndyS said:


> I'm thinking you missed my point (if I had one.)
> 
> Can a guided hunter in Colorado shoot an Elk _out of season_ on public lands when you can't as an individual hunter?
> 
> Unless I'm misinformed, that's what they're proposing with this idea of letting Charter For Hires fish snapper with their customers year round while I have to stick to an 11 day season.
> 
> I've no problem with people who pay somebody to take 'em out on a boat to catch some snappers ... but they oughta have to stick to the same seasons & limits as I do.


 
So should corporations and other countires!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Harbison

*Open access*

:thumbdown: "I've no problem with people who pay somebody to take 'em out on a boat to catch some snappers ... but they oughta have to stick to the same seasons & limits as I do"
Agreed 100%. I have been fishing on the head boat Florida Fisherman for years. Captain Mark Hubbard, owner, would have it NO other way. Mark refused to join the Head boat collaboration program. He believes in open access to our fishery.


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## Fairwaterfishing

DI 310 said:


> th
> 
> I realize that the CFH and the head boat program got a percentage of the ACL but unless the council/NMFS changes the wording in the EFP's they can not fish year round. They can only fish until the ACL is met. The way I understand as with the head boat program started 01/01/14 , so they have to have their allotment caught by 06/11/14( if that is when the ACL is met)I think the CFH IFQ's , whenever it starts will be the same.



Incorrect, they have until the NMFS says they have met the TAC. The season closes June 11th but it usually takes the states 30 to 60 days to actually tally up the totals and get them to NMFS. So in reality I'm sure the head boats can and will fish up in to July.


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## DI 310

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Incorrect, they have until the NMFS says they have met the TAC. The season closes June 11th but it usually takes the states 30 to 60 days to actually tally up the totals and get them to NMFS. So in reality I'm sure the head boats can and will fish up in to July.


Thanks - So the more real time reporting is done , the shorter the "wait" time will become.


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## Fairwaterfishing

DI 310 said:


> Thanks - So the more real time reporting is done , the shorter the "wait" time will become.


Yep, from two months to two weeks, and its real numbers not statistics and formulas.


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## just-a-man

Tuna time...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tank1949

We are being raped by commercial fishermen (not necessarily head boats), both domestic and foreign. Just like our oil will end up in China, supporting globalistic production, US bureacrates are bribbed here to make sure bias remains the status quo and higher profits! IT IS OUR FUC____ FISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Harbison

'Tuna time...' It's just a matter of time before EDF's NOAA attacks tuna also. I can see it now...Tuna over fished & near extinction; close them down! 
Head Boats: Most head boat owners are conscientious & want what is best for fish & fisherman alike. However, the motives of the 17 head boats who have joined the head boat collaborative program are in question. This is nothing more than shares/separation in the recreational sector. I have been fishing on Hubbard's Florida Fisherman for over forty years. Mark Hubbard said absolutely NO WAY to this EDF program. 'It's bad for fishing.'
Only 17 head boats among the entire five gulf states joined the collaborative program. To support them is to support catch shares.
ARS SEASON: The commercial fishermen, not head boats, are the ones to blame for an 11 day ARS season.


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## Realtor

fishermen and fishergals are good at finger pointing... Okay, Okay already, done complaining? I haven't real all 30 pages of this accusing, all knowing thread, but does the rec folks have a plan to reverse all this? Oh that's right, NOPE, just get on the ole PFF and complain and point the virtual finger at each other.

How about someone come up with a plan to get your (our) LOCAL politicians involved. Rec people put $$$$$ after $$$$$ into the local communities, what's your local politician doing to help you? 

I could care less about "who's to blame" There's enough of that to go around....


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## PoolBoy074

Realtor said:


> fishermen and fishergals are good at finger pointing... Okay, Okay already, done complaining? I haven't real all 30 pages of this accusing, all knowing thread, but does the rec folks have a plan to reverse all this? Oh that's right, NOPE, just get on the ole PFF and complain and point the virtual finger at each other.
> 
> How about someone come up with a plan to get your (our) LOCAL politicians involved. Rec people put $$$$$ after $$$$$ into the local communities, what's your local politician doing to help you?
> 
> I could care less about "who's to blame" There's enough of that to go around....


Amen Bro....


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## tank1949

Harbison said:


> 'Tuna time...' It's just a matter of time before EDF's NOAA attacks tuna also. I can see it now...Tuna over fished & near extinction; close them down!
> Head Boats: Most head boat owners are conscientious & want what is best for fish & fisherman alike. However, the motives of the 17 head boats who have joined the head boat collaborative program are in question. This is nothing more than shares/separation in the recreational sector. I have been fishing on Hubbard's Florida Fisherman for over forty years. Mark Hubbard said absolutely NO WAY to this EDF program. 'It's bad for fishing.'
> Only 17 head boats among the entire five gulf states joined the collaborative program. To support them is to support catch shares.
> ARS SEASON: The commercial fishermen, not head boats, are the ones to blame for an 11 day ARS season.


Harbison, YOU ARE 100% correct. ANYTHING those crooked SOBs in Tallahassee and DC can do to generate another tax and feather their own nests will be done. I remember decades ago we built and protected our own reefs and we caught fish. HI teck electronics ended that bacause. Now, lobbyists are ending fishing althogether for the average "Joe" who has busted his ass to get where he or she is legally.


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## Harbison

*EDF & Pew have taken over our fishery*

"Harbison, YOU ARE 100% correct." Thank you sir! Wish I was wrong. However, we all know differently.

"I remember decades ago we built and protected our own reefs and we caught fish" 

Very well said. I am a native Floridian who has been fishing our, or what was once our, waters since the late forties. We caught fish!

"Now, lobbyists are ending fishing althogether for the average "Joe" who has busted his ass to get where he or she is legally" 

EDF & Pew have controlled NOAA for a long time. They are experts at getting whatever it is they want. They want catch shares; they are getting it! 
Eleven day ARS season is a good example. Want more? NO problem...Catch shares, better known as 'paid fishing' will give it to us. EDF is banking on us wanting to catch red snapper so badly that we are more than willing to pay dearly for the privilege of catching what was once ours to begin with. 
EDF & Pew have taken over our fishery!


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