# .223 confirmed - too small a round for a deer



## outdooraddict

So my wife insists that she is not going to use anything bigger than the .223 to kill her first deer. She text me last Friday to tell me she shot not one, but two deer but that they are both bedded down in the plot just looking at her and that i need to come do something about it. I get over there and the deer have run off, I tracked one down, was a 63lb doe with a broke shoulder. Hardly any blood, even the Hornady didn't go into the chest cavity, it hit the shoulder and stopped. I found the deer turned away from me laying in the woods and I grabbed her gun and put another in it's neck....still alive, put one in it's head and it still took 10 minutes to stop kicking. She was mortified and says she never wants to go hunting again! I'm getting her a .243 this week and I think I have talked her into going back out. 

I read on this thread that .223 was big enough and others say that it was not big enough. Never again. I found the second deer late the next day, meat was ruined, it had been too long by the time I found it, was a small buck. The bullet went into the stomach and there was no blood, could hardly even tell where it was shot.


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## Splittine

Oh boy here we go.


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## daniel9829

Sorry about the experience. 243 will be a great option. I started my wife with a 6m Remington dropped her first deer in its tracks with a lung heart shot


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## Cracker

Shot placement = Dead Deer !!!!!!


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## Emerald Ghost

I'm just shaking me head........................

7MM-08 or a .270 will git er done and they can also be forgiving without perfect shot placement.


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## kdawg.84

*Yep*

.223=dook 

You can kill a deer with a pellet gun with proper shot placement but my ass ain't hunting with one.


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## outdooraddict

well like i said i shot it at 10 yards in the neck afterwards and then had to shoot it again in it's head but i think it went behind the eye and came out the front of it's face and still didn't die for 10 min


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## frog03

I agree all in shot placement my son has killed several deer with his 223 has not had one run off yet


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## Brandon_SPC

223 is just fine.... Shot placement. You said Hornady what bullet by hornady?


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## TSpecks

Just buy here a 7mm-08!!!! Yes shot placement is key but there is NO knock down power with a 223. Say what you guys want but I have seen 20+ deer run off never to be found by a 223!!!


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## Try'n Hard

Brandon_SPC said:


> 223 is just fine.... Shot placement. You said Hornady what bullet by hornady?


No! .223 is not fine. Maybe if you are a seasoned accuracy expert - maybe. 
Forum members need to be more responsible with recommendations. People do listen to what's said here. .223 is not forgiving enough and requires skilled marksmanship along with patience and the ability to turn down a bad shot-opportunity. 
IMO .243 is also to small and would go with the 7mm-08, .270, or my favorite 30/06

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## Harbison

*.223*

The last time I wrote an article stating that a .223 was too small for bigger game I had a real war on my hands. Some think it's the best round ever for anything that moves. Truth is the .223 is a scaled down 5.56. For hunting 
the military 5.56 is listed as a varmint round; so where does that leave the .223?
Shot placement is indeed critical with any round. .223 is only 22 caliber. When shot in the head any 22 will kill a deer or hog. However, the hunting situation is completely different from the target range. More often than not that absolutely 'perfect' shot is not available. Here is where a real hunting round comes into its own; much more power to put them on the ground & keep them there. 
"Never again" But be ready for a fight. Some think the .223 is God's gift to man, or woman!
As mentioned above, 30/06 is a much better choice. If you want something a little smaller .308 is one heck of a round. My wife used one for years. It really does the job.


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## Brandon_SPC

Try'n Hard said:


> No! .223 is not fine. Maybe if you are a seasoned accuracy expert - maybe.
> Forum members need to be more responsible with recommendations. People do listen to what's said here. .223 is not forgiving enough and requires skilled marksmanship along with patience and the ability to turn down a bad shot-opportunity.
> IMO .243 is also to small and would go with the 7mm-08, .270, or my favorite 30/06
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


Explain how a .223 is not okay for a deer down here in Florida? So you are saying a person should buy a bigger caliber to make up for the lack of practice or training they do? If you use a .223 with good bonded bullet it will be just fine. There have been a lot of deer that have died to the .223. Also there have been a lot off deer lost to. Just like with any other caliber. A bigger caliber is not going to make up for bad choice of ammo or a poor choice in shot placement. But if you are going to use a 223 you as the hunter need to know your limitations. Just like shooting a 35lb bow vs a 70lb bow. If I shoot a 35lb I wouldn't shoot a deer through the shoulder but with a 70lb bow I will blow through a deer's shoulder all day without second thought.


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## doggfish

I have used .223 40 grain nosler balistic tips never had one take a step..It still takes proper shot placement with any round. When they use to make us take deer in Ky. in to verify the kill I saw many deer with 5 and 6 holes in them from 30-06 and .308. Most people don't want to take the time for practice at the range...there lies the problem most of the time.... just my opinion.

doggfish
your best friend you have never met


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## doggfish

Harbison said:


> The last time I wrote an article stating that a .223 was too small for bigger game I had a real war on my hands. Some think it's the best round ever for anything that moves. Truth is the .223 is a scaled down 5.56. For hunting
> the military 5.56 is listed as a varmint round; so where does that leave the .223?
> Shot placement is indeed critical with any round. .223 is only 22 caliber. When shot in the head any 22 will kill a deer or hog. However, the hunting situation is completely different from the target range. More often than not that absolutely 'perfect' shot is not available. Here is where a real hunting round comes into it own; much more power to put them on the ground & keep them there.
> "Never again" But be ready for a fight. Some think the .223 is God's gift to man, or woman!


Not to call your hand but the only difference in the two is the loading (powder) and the how its necked. They both use a .224 diameter bullet and by the way the .223 started its life as a wildcat varmit round the 5.56 was made to make it a military round...and yeah I do think it's gods gift to man lol....I think even John Browning (god of all guns) would of been impressed with this round

doggfish

your best friend you have never met


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## daylate

outdooraddict said:


> I'm getting her a .243 this week and I think I have talked her into going back out.
> 
> I read on this thread that .223 was big enough and others say that it was not big enough. Never again. I found the second deer late the next day, meat was ruined, it had been too long by the time I found it, was a small buck. The bullet went into the stomach and there was no blood, could hardly even tell where it was shot.


 I wouldn't take her back out until she understands where to shoot a deer and can demonstrate the ability to shoot reasonably accurately. Shoulder is not a good choice with a small caliber bullet and stomach is never a good choice with any caliber. I'm sure you know this but I'm just stating the obvious for anyone who reads this. Maybe she got the jitters REALLY bad? Get her a gun that is forgiving of small accuracy mistakes and will cleanly dispatch a deer even with a less than perfect shot. My $0.02


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## Try'n Hard

Brandon_SPC said:


> Explain how a .223 is not okay for a deer down here in Florida? QUOTE]
> I guess you could go back to the original post for the explanation. like it or not everybody doesn't practice like they should.


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## doggfish

Try'n Hard said:


> Brandon_SPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Explain how a .223 is not okay for a deer down here in Florida? QUOTE]
> I guess you could go back to the original post for the explanation. like it or not everybody doesn't practice like they should.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no magic bullet to make up for the lack of range time it takes to hit consistantly. I don't know how many times I have heard someone at Knob Creek Gun Range come out and shoot one round to verify the zero then recase the weapon and say..Yep thats all I need for the day...I was a instructor at Fort Knox and a rifle team member for the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. And I always felt the need for multiple times at the range before season. But that's just me
> 
> doggfish
> your best friend you have never met
Click to expand...


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## Dagwood

223 is too small for ethical deer hunting. 243 is marginal. A 308 or even a 
30-30 will not kick much more than a 243 and has a lot more knockdown. I have a 25-06 and it doesn't kick like the 270 I had before.


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## Harbison

See what I mean!
Sorry but the 5.56 is more powerful than the .223. For hunting both are listed as varmint rounds. Simply put bigger calibers, 30/06, .308, 45/70, etc. cause much more damage. This 'damaging effect' is what, even without that perfect shot, stops the animal humanly. 
Many like to think they are the second coming of Annie Oakley. Guess they are a
lot better than you or I.


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## doggfish

Dagwood said:


> 223 is too small for ethical deer hunting. 243 is marginal. A 308 or even a
> 30-30 will not kick much more than a 243 and has a lot more knockdown. I have a 25-06 and it doesn't kick like the 270 I had before.


I don't follow your reasoning on this If you turn the average man side ways it is about the same thickness as a deer....It still boils down to the same thing proper loading; proper shot placement...= a very bad day for Bambi

doggfish

your best friend you have never met


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## delta dooler

Poor shot placement was the problem, not the round, BUT there is a big difference between shooting dots at the range and shooting live animals in the field. 
Perfect shot conditions don't always exist in the field, and some of the holier than thou may say, "if you don't have a perfect shot, pass the shot and wait", well you can call me non ethical or whatever else, but in my neck of the woods if you don't take the 1st shot opportunity when you get a chance, by the end of the season, your freezer is gonna have plenty of room left in it. I'm not saying I'm gonna shoot a deer in the azz or the stomach, but anywhere between double lunging it behind the shoulder to a neck shot , it's gonna get shot. 

IMO a .223 is too small for "me" to hunt with, knowing that I may take a marginal shot on a deer keeps me away from small calibers. For someone else, that may be a better shot, or have more patience, a .223 May be fine. 

I shoot my cannon of a .300 WM most of the time, and the wife shoots a 7mm08 most of the time, if not, were carrying .444 Marlins. I have accidently gut shot deer with the .300, and they still haven't went far, No way would you have the same results by shooting a small caliber such as a .223 or .243. We hunt some thick, nasty stuff, with water all around, If I can help it, I want whatever I shoot to be fairly close after the shot, a deer that's able to run 50 Yds after the shot where I hunt has a good chance of being lost in the water. 

As far as your wife gut shooting the deer, hey, chit happens, I'm sure she was excited, and had every right to be. Good luck and get her something 30 caliberish! (7mm 08, .308) or at a minimum, a .243 .


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## Brandon_SPC

Try'n Hard said:


> Brandon_SPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Explain how a .223 is not okay for a deer down here in Florida? QUOTE]
> I guess you could go back to the original post for the explanation. like it or not everybody doesn't practice like they should.
> 
> 
> 
> I did re read your post. I must have skimmed over it or didn't comprehend it. I'm not on the ball today. But hunters should practice with the weapon they choose to shoot. Like me I won't shoot past 350 yards because I am not comfortable doing it. Only practice I have is from the military shooting out to 300 meters with the M-16. Granted during hunting season I will place a jug out to 350 yards and take a few shots in the woods to make sure I am still on, but that is where the hunter needs know their limitations.
> 
> Whatever medicine you use to harvest a deer you have to know the limitations with using it.
Click to expand...


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## Harbison

*God's gun???*

I told you this was going to be a fight. Remember! To some when you are talking about .223 you are talking about 'God's gun!' 
Sorry but few are going to sit in a stand for hours, days, weeks, and let a less than perfect shot walk. Hunting is far from, " shooting dots at the range." 'Ethical' hunters choose a caliber with enough energy to do the job. Your .300 WM is just such a weapon. Some say the .300 destroys way too much meat. This is much better that having an animal run off and suffer. In addition, if our so called expert marksmen are always capable of making that perfect head shot, no meat will be destroyed anyhow. I agree that there is absolutely NO substitute for practice. Get to know your weapon. Know what it & you are capable of. If you choose anything smaller than .30 calaber, be sure to practice your tracking skills.


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## johnf

I've had on deer run more than 30 yards with the 223. I use it in places where my shots are under 100 yards and take heart shots. The only deer that I didn't have a pass through and great blood trail was shot center mass coming straight on. It went down in about 50 yards. 

I load my own Hornady 55grsp. 

Any gut shot deer is going to run.


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## tips n tails

Ballsey to post such a thing on here.


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## delta dooler

johnf said:


> I've had on deer run more than 30 yards with the 223. I use it in places where my shots are under 100 yards and take heart shots. The only deer that I didn't have a pass through and great blood trail was shot center mass coming straight on. It went down in about 50 yards.
> 
> I load my own Hornady 55grsp.
> 
> Any gut shot deer is going to run.


Okay, what if a heart shot doesn't present itself?


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## johnf

delta dooler said:


> Okay, what if a heart shot doesn't present itself?


I don't take marginal shots. I don't think it's ethical.


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## delta dooler

johnf said:


> I don't take marginal shots. I don't think it's ethical.


Okay, so the only "ethical shot" that can be made with a .223 is on a deer that's perfectly broadside to where when a shot is made, that there is no chance of clipping shoulder/ribs, therefore a perfect heart shot is made?? 

Not trying to single you out or be a d$ck, but if that were the case in "most" hunting scenarios, you may get a "perfect" shot on maybe 1 out of 10 deer you see?? Hey, it may work for some, maybe by sitting on green fields the odds are more in your favor for "perfect" shots, but when hunting the woods, that's gona be far from the case.


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## Try'n Hard

johnf said:


> I don't take marginal shots. I don't think it's ethical.


Ooooooo! I do!

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## sureicanfish

My 22-250 worked great, with a good nosler bullet


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## johnf

delta dooler said:


> Okay, so the only "ethical shot" that can be made with a .223 is on a deer that's perfectly broadside to where when a shot is made, that there is no chance of clipping shoulder/ribs, therefore a perfect heart shot is made??
> 
> Not trying to single you out or be a d$ck, but if that were the case in "most" hunting scenarios, you may get a "perfect" shot on maybe 1 out of 10 deer you see?? Hey, it may work for some, maybe by sitting on green fields the odds are more in your favor for "perfect" shots, but when hunting the woods, that's gona be far from the case.


The gun shoots around an 1.25" at 100 yards. The heart shot is not that difficult in the hunting situations I'm in. I'm basically bow hunting with a gun in my hands. My average shot has been about 30 yards. I could shoot 100, but my stand is located where I generally don't have to. The one shot facing was the most marginal shot I would take. Yes I've passed on some shots, but that's just me. If you need to compensate bad judgment with a bigger caliber that's your decision.


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## delta dooler

sure said:


> My 22-250 worked great, with a good nosler bullet





C'mon now sureicanfish, yea, you killed a couple deer, but by reading your story, it doesn't quite sound like the 22-250 was the "most efficient" caliber on either deer.... Not knocking the rifle, happy to see you scored using your dads gun, but a hundred yards in many places could result in a lost deer. 




sure said:


> 22-250 that is haha. A huge thanks to Scott, gastonfish, for letting me sit the field with him last year and this year. Last year was stressful with a field full of deer every sit, but no bucks. Then the one buck that came out on me I gave a warning shot to... Today was almost another near miss since the deer didn't come out anywhere near where they had the last several sits. Light was fading and Scott was waiting on me before he took a shot so I had to try for a wad that was pretty far out, 250 or so. Told him I was taking a long shot so he could get ready, picked out the biggest doe broadside to me and let it rip. She ran 100 yards straight back to the woods, deer scattered, some stopped so I shot at another one, it kicked and jumped in the bushes. Scott found a tiny bit of blood near where the first big doe ran in the woods, a few steps in and he found that one, a big beautiful doe. We debated who actually shot it, and I'm still pretty sure I missed the long shot, but Scott gave me both deer. The second one had no blood trail and took half an hour of crawling through brush on hands and knees and heartfelt prayer to find. Very excited and proud and glad I used my late dad's rifle, which will be my go to rifle from now on!


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## johnf

I do generally hunt with a 25/06.


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## sureicanfish

Straight through both deer, jelly lungs, dead deer. I don't see the need to blow a huge hole out the other side of them. I'll use it any chance I get, granted, the field is really it's happy place, I won't carry it in the woods.


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## delta dooler

johnf said:


> If you need to compensate bad judgment with a bigger caliber that's your decision.


Ha, and I'll continue to do the same as always, fill the freezer, one at a time with bad judgement and unethical shots. . Good hunting to ya !


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## Brandon_SPC

I honestly see it like this. There is enough hydrostatic shock with a 223 or 22-250 with these 60-120lb deer we have here in Florida a .223 or 22-250 is just fine. Stick it in the lungs and the deer is going to be dead. Now if you want an exit pick a good bullet. Every deer I have shot with my 30-06 has never had a pass through except one. Just pick the right bullet, right shot placement, squeeze the trigger and everything will be golden.


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## delta dooler

Brandon_SPC said:


> I honestly see it like this. There is enough hydrostatic shock with a 223 or 22-250 with these 60-120lb deer we have here in Florida a .223 or 22-250 is just fine. Stick it in the lungs and the deer is going to be dead. Now if you want an exit pick a good bullet. Every deer I have shot with my 30-06 has never had a pass through except one. Just pick the right bullet, right shot placement, squeeze the trigger and everything will be golden.


True, I ain't throwing rocks by no means, what works for someone in one area may not be best suited for someone in another. Dead deer is what it all boils down to. 

In my case where I hunt most of the time, it is the the worst WMA in the state of Mississippi to hunt deer in. The total man hours and acres per deer are the worst in the state. In order for me to put meat in the freezer, I can't wait for the perfect shot. I take what's given, and it works for me. Good luck to everyone and continue to stack em up .


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## sureicanfish

I did plenty of reading before deciding to use a .223 or 22-250. Fact is, theyre used all over the country for deer and with slow expanding bullets they're just fine, sure, you might not shatter both shoulders, and as mentioned a ton of times, shot placement is important. My 64gr 22-250 rounds are still over 3000fps at 100 yards, that's plenty of energy in a quality bullet.


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## Scruggspc

Just gonna go on record here and say it can kill any deer with 223 nosler partition 60 grain. Shot one from the time I was 6-10, and murdered their ass. I will take all the hate mail that comes with it.


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## Brandon_SPC

delta dooler said:


> True, I ain't throwing rocks by no means, what works for someone in one area may not be best suited for someone in another. Dead deer is what it all boils down to.
> 
> In my case where I hunt most of the time, it is the the worst WMA in the state of Mississippi to hunt deer in. The total man hours and acres per deer are the worst in the state. In order for me to put meat in the freezer, I can't wait for the perfect shot. I take what's given, and it works for me. Good luck to everyone and continue to stack em up .


 I see your point. I'm the same way. If I could shoot some does in a clear cut or green field then I would give the .223 a try but being in Blackwater the .270 tags along.


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## johnf

Brandon_SPC said:


> I see your point. I'm the same way. If I could shoot some does in a clear cut or green field then I would give the .223 a try but being in Blackwater the .270 tags along.


See that's the thing. When I'm hunting places I know I'm going to have long shots, I've got the 25-06. When I'm shooting in the thick stuff I carry a 30-30 and when I'm in my bow stand I carry the 223. Right gun for the right job. The 25-06 would probably do the job in all situations, but it's a lot longer and heavier than the other guns.


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## auburn17

The caliber has absolutely nothing to do with the deer running IMO, it was all shot placement as others have said. I have watched a deer be shot with a .22 (to put it out of its misery after being hit by a truck) and 1 shot killed it. 

Any caliber will kill a deer if it is hit in the right place, and a .22 will kill a deer but I don't hunt with it. 

Get something with some knockdown power, our woods are too dang thick around here to be trailing a deer.


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## Grassflatsfisher

......


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## Try'n Hard

I cannot believe we are having this conversation!

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## Harbison

Sir, anytime you even think about anything negative against 'God's gun' you can expect "this conversation."
For anyone concerned with 'ethics' the weapon used should match the game sought.
"you may get a "perfect" shot on maybe 1 out of 10 deer you see?" If you're lucky!
Ever been chased by a wild hog? I have. In fact I have trailed them down, after a so called 'perfect' heart-lung shot, by following blown out lung tissue. 
Regardless of how you look at it, the more foot-pounds of energy, the better the chance of putting them down and keeping them there. In the real world that 'perfect shot' syndrome is often very un-realistic.


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## chaddd

Who wouldn't want a bigger gun when you make a marginal shot. I know everyone thinks they are snippers, but I can't be the only one that's ever made a bad shot. In a hunting situation it's fairly easy to do.


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## Jason

Cracker said:


> Shot placement = Dead Deer !!!!!!


X2.....killed a few with 223. Some dropped some ran 60-70 yards....come to think of it, I've never not found one shot w/a 223:whistling:


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## bowfisher91

I just don't see the advantage of a 223 in many situations. Hell, I just bought a 45-70 Govt for woods/medium range gun.


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## Joraca

I like my rifle cartridges to start with a "3" and my pistol cartridges to start with a "4".

Remington sells 125 gr PSP Core-locs in both 30-06 and 308 for those who don't enjoy getting thumped.

Joraca


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## BigRed38

Savage 30-.06 AKA the Peace Maker.... Only Rifle I have ever owned. Kicks Like a mule, I'd hate to feel the other end of it lol.


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## Try'n Hard

OK, You .223 guys are giving me a headache and I hate to do this but I'm gonna have to insist that if yall don't stop arguing with me your all gonna have to go to bed without your supper (that used to work with my kids)
A .223 is basically a long range bow & arrow - fairly perfect shot required


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## Grassflatsfisher

.223 may be enough bullet to kill a deer but it doesn't have enough margin of error to suffice as an effective deer round in my opinion. Proof is in the pudding. 

This was a well placed round and the bullet split upon impact. Part of the bullet made its way into the chest cavity while the other part split the hide as the pic shows. Deer ran 150yds before expiring and believe it or not we had very little blood to go on. I have not touched the deer other than hang him up in the pick. Thats all bullet damage. 55gr btsp from Georgia Arms. 


Decided I wasn't going to do the .223 stuff anymore so we went with a variant and moved up to the 6.8spc. Much much better performance with very little difference in recoil. This is my 6yo laying one out. 
Http://youtu.be/Z2JSgQ5Vwnk

And a 7mm-08 kill from this year. As you can tell from his reaction she dropped in her tracks. He bumped my cam on the shot. 
Http://youtu.be/3Abkd9YHWWo

And my 5yo's first kill a few weeks ago with a 7-08. 
Http://youtu.be/vl5_eMIa-nw

Moral of my story is I'd rather have too much rather than not enough. There are a lot better rounds to shoot that have just as minimal recoil as the .223 but offer a lot more margin of error. When we are talking about kids and women who don't hunt or shoot as much as the average one of us does then margin fator plays a big role. And like the .223 shot above the bullet placement wan't an issue. It was the caliber more than anything. 

OP if your wife is scared of the recoil check out the 6.8spc. I'd recommend it over a .243 any day if the week. Essentially its a .270 bullet from a casing that is slightly bigger than a .223. Its a good bit slower than a .243 but has more knock down for its weight and size.


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## kdawg.84

doggfish said:


> I have used .223 40 grain nosler balistic tips never had one take a step..It still takes proper shot placement with any round. When they use to make us take deer in Ky. in to verify the kill I saw many deer with 5 and 6 holes in them from 30-06 and .308. Most people don't want to take the time for practice at the range...there lies the problem most of the time.... just my opinion.
> 
> doggfish
> your best friend you have never met


"Never had one take a step" either you have killed 5 deer in your life or your full of it. You could cut a deers heart out with a pocket knife and they can still run off!


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## sniperpeeps

outdooraddict said:


> well like i said i shot it at 10 yards in the neck afterwards and then had to shoot it again in it's head but i think it went behind the eye and came out the front of it's face and still didn't die for 10 min



I shot a for this season right in the neck below the head. She ran 350 yards. Adrenaline is a powerful thing.30-06









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## John B.

You shoot em in the stomach with a cannon and they're going to run off... if you can't make a good shot with a .223 then get a bigger more forgiving cartridge. I plan on shooting a few deer with my .223 when I know I will be sitting somewhere that my shot is less than 100 yards. Anything else the .308 gets to go.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## delta dooler

kdawg.84 said:


> "Never had one take a step" either you have killed 5 deer in your life or your full it. You could cut a deers heart out with a pocket knife and they can still run off!


Bwahahaha! He said you only have killed 5 deer in your life !!!


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## Brandon_SPC

kdawg.84 said:


> "Never had one take a step" either you have killed 5 deer in your life or your full it. You could cut a deers heart out with a pocket knife and they can still run off!


 It just got good. I'm here for the comments now!!!


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## Jason

You see I take all my 223 rounds and drill them out till they are 43.8 grain and I add 10 mil of mercury and put 1.2 wax on top of that.....The deer die on the hoof where I choot em!!!:shifty:


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## Buckchaser

Brandon_SPC said:


> Explain how a .223 is not okay for a deer down here in Florida? So you are saying a person should buy a bigger caliber to make up for the lack of practice or training they do? If you use a .223 with good bonded bullet it will be just fine. There have been a lot of deer that have died to the .223. Also there have been a lot off deer lost to. Just like with any other caliber. A bigger caliber is not going to make up for bad choice of ammo or a poor choice in shot placement. But if you are going to use a 223 you as the hunter need to know your limitations. Just like shooting a 35lb bow vs a 70lb bow. If I shoot a 35lb I wouldn't shoot a deer through the shoulder but with a 70lb bow I will blow through a deer's shoulder all day without second thought.


"You have to no your limitations" why limit yourself? Any woman can shoot a 270. My wife uses a 7 mag regularly. There is no excuse in my eyes to use a 223 for deer. I don't care how much you practice everybody makes mistakes especially when your dealing with buck fever. 150 yd shoulder shot with a 270 or bigger dead with 100 yds tops. With a 223 never to be found. I'll take quartering to or straight on shots with my 270 I have never had a deer that I hit run over a 100 yds.


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## Try'n Hard

Jason said:


> You see I take all my 223 rounds and drill them out till they are 43.8 grain and I add 10 mil of mercury and put 1.2 wax on top of that.....The deer die on the hoof where I choot em!!!:shifty:


I saw gander mountain now sells tannerite. Maybe we can make us some exploding .223!!

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## Buckchaser

Try'n Hard said:


> Ooooooo! I do!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


I rarely take any that aren't marginal a rutting buck coming through timber or crossing a clear cut at 200 yds don't offer much else


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## Buckchaser

johnf said:


> The gun shoots around an 1.25" at 100 yards. The heart shot is not that difficult in the hunting situations I'm in. I'm basically bow hunting with a gun in my hands. My average shot has been about 30 yards. I could shoot 100, but my stand is located where I generally don't have to. The one shot facing was the most marginal shot I would take. Yes I've passed on some shots, but that's just me. If you need to compensate bad judgment with a bigger caliber that's your decision.


Sorry but most my deer arent scratching there ass on feeder post at 30 yds


----------



## Brandon_SPC

Buckchaser said:


> "You have to no your limitations" why limit yourself? Any woman can shoot a 270. My wife uses a 7 mag regularly. There is no excuse in my eyes to use a 223 for deer. I don't care how much you practice everybody makes mistakes especially when your dealing with buck fever. 150 yd shoulder shot with a 270 or bigger dead with 100 yds tops. With a 223 never to be found. I'll take quartering to or straight on shots with my 270 I have never had a deer that I hit run over a 100 yds.


As I stated " But if you are going to use a 223 you as the hunter need to know your limitations." You just have to know what your own limitations are with each caliber. Like my .270 I feel comfortable shooting deer out to 350 yards with it. Now with my .223 I wouldn't shoot a deer past 150.


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## Buckchaser

Brandon_SPC said:


> I honestly see it like this. There is enough hydrostatic shock with a 223 or 22-250 with these 60-120lb deer we have here in Florida a .223 or 22-250 is just fine. Stick it in the lungs and the deer is going to be dead. Now if you want an exit pick a good bullet. Every deer I have shot with my 30-06 has never had a pass through except one. Just pick the right bullet, right shot placement, squeeze the trigger and everything will be golden.


Most any buck over 3 yrs old is over 120 lbs


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## Brandon_SPC

Buckchaser said:


> Most any buck over 3 yrs old is over 120 lbs


 Depends on where they are. Personally me I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a buck over a 120lbs at Blackwater.


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## Try'n Hard

Reading back over some of the posts here - I realized that this would be an excellent place to plant my spring garden!

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## sureicanfish

Has anyone asked what kind of bullet the OP was shooting, sure sounds like a varmint bullet.


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## Harbison

*'perfect opportunity'*

Most who set for long periods of time in often very brutal weather do not want to pass up good shots while waiting for that perfect opportunity needed when hunting big game with a varmint round. 
"shoot em in the stomach" with a .223, 30-06 or .308 an see the difference. Even 'experts' who actually hunt make shots that are not perfectly placed. .223 is a fine round for what it was intended. In addition, for the range, the .223 can easily be adapted to shoot the less expensive .22 round. 
Someone mentioned 45-70. Excellent round for putting them on the ground & keeping them there. There is a reason why this round has endured ever since the Old West buffalo hunting days. It does the job!
"shoot em in the stomach'' with a 45-70 and be prepared to drag your deer out of the woods. Wait for that 'perfect' .223 shot & you will be using the same ammo again next year.


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## Brandon_SPC

sure said:


> Has anyone asked what kind of bullet the OP was shooting, sure sounds like a varmint bullet.


 I did but never got an answer.


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## Brandon_SPC

Harbison said:


> Most who set for long periods of time in often very brutal weather do not want to pass up good shots while waiting for that perfect opportunity needed when hunting big game with a varmint round.
> "shoot em in the stomach" with a .223, 30-06 or .308 an see the difference. Even 'experts' who actually hunt make shots that are not perfectly placed. .223 is a fine round for what it was intended. In addition, for the range, the .223 can easily be adapted to shoot the less expensive .22 round.
> Someone mentioned 45-70. Excellent round for putting them on the ground & keeping them there. There is a reason why this round has endured ever since the Old West buffalo hunting days. It does the job!
> "shoot em in the stomach'' with a 45-70 and be prepared to drag your deer out of the woods. Wait for that 'perfect' .223 shot & you will be using the same ammo again next year.


 Shot a deer in the stomach with a .444 at about 60 yards because I got the fever she ran over 300 yards. This was at my friends house in Cantonment. I got the fever and punched the trigger. She ran off saw the stomach hanging the opposite side off her. It is all about shot placement. Over seas they use 22-250, .223, .222, all those calibers to shoot fallow deer. I don't think it is any difference with our whitetails.
Moral of all this. 
Pick what you are comfortable with. If you shoot a .223 better than a 308 so be it use the 223. Just always pick the right bullet for the application and actually practice and if you can't, do some dry fire practice to get the feel of the trigger. That is always better than nothing. Call me weird but I even do dry fire with my hunting rifle before going out the next day to hunt. Just like I try flinging a few arrows during archery season.


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## Emerald Ghost

What have we learned with 7 pages and counting in less than 24 hours ?

- That small caliber rounds are at a minimum, very controversial and disliked by many.

- Why do you suppose that is ? Well guys, just read the responses. 

I've been hunting for almost 50 years and seen a lot. I've heard this argument many times, and I'm too darned old to chase dinged deer to the next county. 
My question to you guys shooting a .223 is this :
Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?


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## sureicanfish

Emerald Ghost said:


> What have we learned with 7 pages and counting in less than 24 hours ?
> 
> - That small caliber rounds are at a minimum, very controversial and disliked by many.
> 
> - Why do you suppose that is ? Well guys, just read the responses.
> 
> I've been hunting for almost 50 years and seen a lot. I've heard this argument many times, and I'm too darned old to chase dinged deer to the next county.
> My question to you guys shooting a .223 is this :
> Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?


I'll answer, since I'm on "team .223" haha. I had a 30.06 and absolutely hated shooting it at the range, just no fun sitting behind that, but it's not a plinker. With both my .223 and 22-250 I can look straight at the target through the entire shot, recoil is obviously way low. With so many different bullets out there for different purposes, you at least have flexibility with a rifle and what you can use it for. I sold the 30.06 and probably wouldn't get a larger caliber unless I was for sure going to do some long range hunting. I have VERY limited experience shooting .224 caliber bullets at deer but the two I cleaned were pass through shots, one through ribs, this was NOT a varmint bullet. 

Also, I'm sure we've all heard stories of lost deer after ballistic tipped bullets blew up or exploded from 7 mag, 300's, etc etc. Bullet construction is mucho-importanto


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## Try'n Hard

Emerald Ghost said:


> Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?


 Maybe just haven't had to follow one 2 miles in the dark and not find it till the buzzards start circling!


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## SaltWaterBuck

ive got to side with the shot placement guys here if you can ethically kill one with a stick and string than surely good placement with a .223 will do the same..........probably shouldnt take 100yrd shots with the bow probably shouldnt take 200yrd shots with the .223 and probably shouldnt take 1000yrd shots with your 30-06....every weapon has its limitations its your responsibility as the hunter to know and respect them sure a 7mag would have dropped her deer in their tracks but that doesnt make a .223 insufficient


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## sureicanfish

Try'n Hard said:


> Inexperienced or Hardheadedness?


I prefer "strong willed"


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## Comfortably Numb

Emerald Ghost said:


> What have we learned with 7 pages and counting in less than 24 hours ?
> 
> - That small caliber rounds are at a minimum, very controversial and disliked by many.
> 
> - Why do you suppose that is ? Well guys, just read the responses.
> 
> I've been hunting for almost 50 years and seen a lot. I've heard this argument many times, and I'm too darned old to chase dinged deer to the next county.
> My question to you guys shooting a .223 is this :
> Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?


I ask the same question as well. I hunt mostly swamps on public land and try to kill 6-8 deer a year for my family as well as my parents/inlaws. I have also shot as many as anyone you know with a .223, .22 long rifle, and a .22 magnum in the past in pest control type operations. Of course it comes down to perfect shot placement with these calibers, but I would rather not rely on the perfect shot offering itself in my hunting situations. If you have not lost one with a .223 yet, you have not shot very many. I literally usually see a deer, decide whether to shoot or pass, and pull the trigger in 5 seconds when hunting on public land. If you wait 7 seconds, the deer is gone and you leave empty handed. I shoot a 30-06 for this very reason. Very few places on a deer that the bullet can hit and not find the animal. Saying this, my son(10) has killed 3 this year with a .223. Shot behind the shoulder with corelockts on food plots that I knew I could find the deer when they ran. He is getting a larger caliber for Christmas though.


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## Scruggspc

My thing is if you cant put 3 shots at 100 yards in a coke can with a center fire, then Originally Posted by Emerald Ghost 
Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?


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## Try'n Hard

sure said:


> I prefer "strong willed"


I edited that post as soon as I made it so as not to seem so "strong willed" myself

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## simpleman

I was on the 223 band wagon,like sureicanfish says whats not to like low recoil dont lose your sight picture. Kill 3 one year longest at 260 all good blood trial and got passthough 70gtsx.Then it happen one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen on our land followed a doe 60 yard from me coming dead to me the doe stop started to back pedal and just before thay spooked I put the cross hair in the middle of the bucks neck he hit the ground I pad myself on the back and before I could get out of the shooting house he got up never to be seen again.Its a lesson I only need to learn once.There no doubt in my mind if I would of grab the 270wsm that deer would of been decapitated,instead I took the pea shooter and still have a bad taste in my mouth.but do what yall want at some point you will regret it.


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## Buckchaser

I can't believe there is grown men on here scared of the recoil of a .30-06


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## Brandon_SPC

Emerald Ghost said:


> What have we learned with 7 pages and counting in less than 24 hours ?
> 
> - That small caliber rounds are at a minimum, very controversial and disliked by many.
> 
> - Why do you suppose that is ? Well guys, just read the responses.
> 
> I've been hunting for almost 50 years and seen a lot. I've heard this argument many times, and I'm too darned old to chase dinged deer to the next county.
> My question to you guys shooting a .223 is this :
> Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?


Because some people can't shoot a larger caliber
Some people are scared of the weapon
Some people don't like recoil of bigger calibers
Some people can shoot a .223, .243 better than shooting a .308, 30-06, 7mm-08. 
It all depends on what you shoot the best and feel the most comfortable with. Would you use a 300 win mag on a deer if you could barely put it a paper plate size circle or use a 308 and shoot a coke can everytime? Me I would drop down to the 308.


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## Buckchaser

How many of you .223 guys would honestly rather shoot this deer in the 3 secs he was crossing my shooting lane with a .223 vs a larger caliber.


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## SaltWaterBuck

still dont make .223 insufficient


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## Brandon_SPC

Buckchaser said:


> How many of you .223 guys would honestly rather shoot this deer in the 3 secs he was crossing my shooting lane with a .223 vs a larger caliber.


 I would. If that is the legal weapon I feel comfortable with. I know a guy that uses a 243 on elk every time he goes. Kills them stone dead. Using a 95 gr bullet to take down an 800lb animal. No different than using a 64 gr bullet to shoot that deer. It will kill them.


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## John B.

If you're against using a .223 for deer hunting, yet you bow hunt, you don't have a leg to stand on in my opinion. Just throwing that out there.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## sureicanfish

Buckchaser said:


> I can't believe there is grown men on here scared of the recoil of a .30-06


No one said they're afraid of it. I carry a .444 Marlin in the swamp, as I said before, I use the 22-250 in a field where you have time to make a shot, provided your scope doesn't suck.

Anywho, I'm just gonna sit back and watch this one, I've said my piece.


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## Comfortably Numb

SaltWaterBuck said:


> still dont make .223 insufficient


No it doesn't . It is very effective at killing a deer shot in the vitals. There is not a whitetail that has ever walked this earth that could survive a .223 placed in the vitals. Now finding said deer without an exit hole and decent blood trail is where issues with a lighter caliber come into play for me. Take a full size animal( not 60 lb doe) with muscular shoulders and quartering to you and things get really complicated.


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## Brandon_SPC

Now comparing bow hunting to using a rifle is apples to oranges. A rifle uses hyrdostatic shock to dispatch the animal vs a bow doesn't. A bow uses slicing to dispatch an animal. Sorry I don't know what the tech term for the bow one. I think it is hemorrhagic shock. Where the bow arrow cause the animal to hemorrhage vs disrupting the internal system like hydrostatic shock.


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## kdawg.84

John B. said:


> If you're against using a .223 for deer hunting, yet you bow hunt, you don't have a leg to stand on in my opinion. Just throwing that out there.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S5....


I think this is really how I feel. That caliber will kill a deer I just am not willing to limit myself to its capabilities. Incapable ? No! More limited than larger calibers?Yes.

Great point


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## John B.

Brandon_SPC said:


> Now comparing bow hunting to using a rifle is apples to oranges. A rifle uses hyrdostatic shock to dispatch the animal vs a bow doesn't. A bow uses slicing to dispatch an animal. Sorry I don't know what the tech term for the bow one. I think it is hemorrhagic shock.


We're not talking about how it kills a deer, just if it kills a deer. 

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## SaltWaterBuck

Brandon_SPC said:


> Now comparing bow hunting to using a rifle is apples to oranges. A rifle uses hyrdostatic shock to dispatch the animal vs a bow doesn't. A bow uses slicing to dispatch an animal. Sorry I don't know what the tech term for the bow one. I think it is hemorrhagic shock.


your right but there is a reason soldiers carry AR's not HOYT's and that reason is because one kills better than the other...........if a bow can do it effectively than a .223 can too


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## Harbison

I have been doing this stuff for over 60 years. In that time I have seen, learned, a great deal.
Regardless of the weapon used, shot placement is critical. The smaller the caliber the more critical. I have used, an seen the difference between, .223, 7mm mag, 30.06, .308, .300 WM, & 45-70. All preform very well for what they were intended. .223 great varment round; 7mm mag, 30.06 .300 WM, great for larger game at either short or very long range; 45-70 best of all for shots up to 100 yards. 
If recoil is a problem suggest trying the BAR .308 with the BOSS system; less recoil than a bolt action .223. I have used the Browning BAR, with BOSS, chambered in the extremely powerful 300 Winchester mag. The recoil was minimal, but the noise was shocking. The only 'real' advantage to a .223 is that the ammo can be purchased in bulk for a fraction of the cost of larger calibers.


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## 192

This whole thing is dumb.


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## SaltWaterBuck

i think that we can all agree that the bigger caliber rifles kill better BUT thats not what this thread is about


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## John B.

So how about them red snapper... the 7 hour season open yet?

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## 192

Always open.


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## sniperpeeps

Scruggspc said:


> My thing is if you cant put 3 shots at 100 yards in a coke can with a center fire, then Originally Posted by Emerald Ghost
> 
> Why NOT shoot a larger caliber ?



If someone can't put 3 shots in a coke can at 100yds they should stick to fishing!


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## Bodupp

simpleman said:


> I was on the 223 band wagon,like sureicanfish says whats not to like low recoil dont lose your sight picture. Kill 3 one year longest at 260 all good blood trial and got passthough 70gtsx.Then it happen one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen on our land followed a doe 60 yard from me coming dead to me the doe stop started to back pedal and just before thay spooked I put the cross hair in the middle of the bucks neck he hit the ground I pad myself on the back and before I could get out of the shooting house he got up never to be seen again.Its a lesson I only need to learn once.There no doubt in my mind if I would of grab the 270wsm that deer would of been decapitated,instead I took the pea shooter and still have a bad taste in my mouth.but do what yall want at some point you will regret it.


This^^^. Eventually, ALL of the .223 advocates will wish they had more gun. This year? Next year? Maybe not. But eventually, yes.


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## sureicanfish

100th post!


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## johnf

SaltWaterBuck said:


> your right but there is a reason soldiers carry AR's not HOYT's and that reason is because one kills better than the other...........if a bow can do it effectively than a .223 can too


I thought it was because a fully automatic bow isn't practical.


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## Brandon_SPC

SaltWaterBuck said:


> your right but there is a reason soldiers carry AR's not HOYT's and that reason is because one kills better than the other...........if a bow can do it effectively than a .223 can too


Sarcasm?


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## SaltWaterBuck

a little i guess but no not really


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## Brandon_SPC

SaltWaterBuck said:


> a little i guess but no not really


Sorry just trying to grapse that comment. Rifle and a bow dont kill any better than another. They kill two different ways. I see the kind of what yall are talking about I guess. If a bow can kill a deer so can a rifle. Not why Soldiers carry a rifle over a bow lol


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## Grassflatsfisher

sure said:


> 100th post!


That's one of the best post ever! Epic!!!


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## bigbulls

Oh my God. A .223/5.56 will kill deer stone dead, there's no question about it. Problems arise when people use the wrong style bullet and/or put the bullet in the wrong spot. If your using your .223 and using "varmint" bullets on deer your asking for eventual trouble. There are bullets designed for deer hunting and work extremely well. They will break shoulders and penetrate through the vitals and many times exit the other side. Bullets like the fusion, nosler partition, barnes tsx, gold dot, gmx, etc... etc...

Ill be using my AR with 62 grain fusion ammo. After that i might take my .338 RUM with 225 grain hornady SST's just so no one thinks im using the .223 because I'm scared of the recoil. After that, Im gonna kill one with my .300BLK just to really F$&# with yall.

As far as bows and guns go, one doesn't correlate to the other. I dont know how one makes the connection between arrows and rifles for soldiers. Arrows kill by massive hemorrhaging... IE: the animal bleeds out and passes out from a lack of oxygen to the brain. A bullet kills by creating massive trauma to internal organs to the point that they are either completely destroyed or enough that they can not function.


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## SaltWaterBuck

Brandon_SPC said:


> Sorry just trying to grapse that comment. Rifle and a bow dont kill any better than another. They kill two different ways. I see the kind of what yall are talking about I guess. If a bow can kill a deer so can a rifle. Not why Soldiers carry a rifle over a bow lol


no apology necessary man my point was that a .223 kills better than a bow we can get all technical about it "dead is dead slice vs hydrowhatever impact blah blah blah" but the fact of the matter is that the rifle in question kills better than a bow therefore by default if the bow can effictavely kill a deer than a .223 is plenty capable as well........which is what this thread is about, weather or not a .223 is big enough to kill a deer LOL


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## Rickpcfl

I look at it this way. How many hours do you spend hunting deer in order to get a shot at a big buck, or even a doe? When the time comes to make the shot, do you want all those hours wasted because you didn't make the perfect shot required to kill a deer with a .223? All because you're afraid of a little recoil?

That's silly. Hunt with a gun that is capable of killing a deer with a less than perfect shot.


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## Harbison

*.270*

Regardless of what the manufacturer may 'try' to have us believe, even the famous Nosler Partition in .223 is, same as all .22's, still a varmint round. 


" Hunt with a gun that is capable of killing a deer with a less than perfect shot." ABSOLUTELY! Even for the best marksman, that 'perfect shot' is seldom available.


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## Az-Vic

I like meat, maybe that's why I do not take marginal shots on deer, ie: azz end, or on the shoulder, hitting that hard ball joint with calibers of .223 size and even bigger can cause a failure to get to the plumbing.

Ive hunted with the .223 for over 30 years, and killed a bunch of deer, both our desert mule deer and our smaller Coues whitetail, as well as several antelope and a feral hog down in Presidio Texas a few years ago. I always shoot for behind the shoulder, the heart/lung/liver area is a big patch of territory on deer sized game, and should be an easy target for most any moderately skilled rifleman.

Is it a small caliber...sure, but it easily kills deer sized game. Any animal hit in the lungs is dead, although it can surely run as far as the remaining oxygen allows, wether it was a .22 cal bullet or a 30 caliber. 

When a deer takes a heart/lung/liver hit, there is no "knock down" involved, there is a hole and damaging effect on surrounding tissue, but no knock down, that only can occur when tissue involving the nervous system is hit ie; spine or brain.

I recently watched thru good glass, from a distance of about 200 yards, my pard shoot a bedded muley buck with his 30-06 right thru the heart. He stood up, looked at the standing does around him while blood "glugged" out of the pass thru like milk being poured from a jug. He looked around for a few seconds, then got wobbly and tipped over......just as he would have from a hit form my .223.

Certainly there are bigger calibers, are they better...probably; but not much better, if the right shot is not taken. Ive killed deer with a .17 Remington, stone dead, but Ive hit them where they live, and that's not on the shoulder or in the paunch.


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## sureicanfish

i wish the OP who poked the stick in this yellow jacket hole would tell us which bullet was used, my guess is a ballistic tip something or other


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## Harbison

*Get ready to run!*

No doubt that a .223, or even a .17 will, with a perfect shot, drop a big deer, or just about any big game animal. However, after a lifetime of hunting all over the country I have been presented with very few 'perfect' shots. That so called 'perfect' shot is, more often than not, at the range; not in the woods. 
I insist on using the proper rifle for whatever the targeted game. For long shots at deer in Maine & Alabama I use a 7mm Rem. mag. For closer brush shots in Georgia & Florida I drop down to a .308. For huge boars in Florida I have found the very powerful 45-70 keeps them from chasing me. Want to hunt this with a .223? Get ready to run!


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## Emerald Ghost

Brandon_SPC said:


> Because some people can't shoot a larger caliber
> Some people are *scared *of the weapon
> Some people don't like *recoil* of bigger calibers
> Some people *can shoot* a .223, .243 better than shooting a .308, 30-06, 7mm-08.
> It all depends on what you shoot the best and feel the most comfortable with. Would you use a 300 win mag on a deer if you could barely put it a paper plate size circle or use a 308 and shoot a coke can everytime? Me I would drop down to the 308.


 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Scared *- If you shoot a firearm enough, fears subsides .
*Recoil- *get a Pachmayr recoil pad and a Boss system.
*Can shoot*- Military training or time on the gun range will overcome that.
(Read "simpleman"'s post above)


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## sniperpeeps

I've killed at least 100 pigs with a .223. Ear hole them and they drop where they stand. No need for all that firepower on those varmints.


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## Cracker

sure said:


> i wish the OP who poked the stick in this yellow jacket hole would tell us which bullet was used, my guess is a ballistic tip something or other


 He needs to throw them in the trash if he shot the deer in the nugget and it took 10 minutes to die.:whistling:


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## Jason

Hey maybe if we all hate 223's, the prices of ammo and firearms in that caliber around here will drop drastically!!!!! 

Yeah, I hate 223.....wouldn't even tree rat hunt with it!!!!


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## johnf

SaltWaterBuck said:


> no apology necessary man my point was that a .223 kills better than a bow we can get all technical about it "dead is dead slice vs hydrowhatever impact blah blah blah" but the fact of the matter is that the rifle in question kills better than a bow therefore by default if the bow can effictavely kill a deer than a .223 is plenty capable as well........which is what this thread is about, weather or not a .223 is big enough to kill a deer LOL


Kills better? That doesn't make sense. Does a gun make a deer more deader? lol

A good shot with a bow will kill just as dead as a good shot with a gun, just as a bad shot with both will result in a wounded deer.


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## sniperpeeps

We can make it to 150 today!


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## Realtor

I shot and killed a 200 Lb Caribou in Alaska with a .243 @ about 100 yards. Single shot, he dropped like a sack o taters. Just thought I would throw that in there....


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## Try'n Hard

Splittine said:


> Oh boy here we go.


This one gets my vote for most accurate post of 2014!


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## CSA

After sitting back and reading all of the post It seems like I must be the only hunter that has ever lost a deer that was shot with 30 caliber rifle.
I have been hunting for many years and I hunt with many different calibers for deer from .223,243,270,30 car,357 rifle,30-30,308,30-06,300 whisper,8 mm 12 ga. 3" slug with riffled barrel." My wife says if I buy it I have to use it"
I can only think of four deer that have been wasted from not finding them,
one was shot with a 30-30, one was shot with a 30-06, one was shot with a 12 ga. 3" slug gun, and yes one with a 223, needless to say I would have sworn at the time all was a good shot but apparently not because of the outcome. 
Now I am not saying I have never had to track one a good ways (even with the bigger calibers) but they where recovered,
My point is that I have learned that it is about pullet construction and shot placement, 
No matter what caliber you use a bad shot will wound and cause you to loose your deer.
So will a smaller caliber like the .223 work on deer? Yes
Can you loose a deer shot with a bigger caliber because of a bad shot? Yes
As long as we as hunters are out in the woods and passing on the tradition of hunting is what matters and not knocking what is legal to use or how you hunt.


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## Brandon_SPC

Emerald Ghost said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Scared *- If you shoot a firearm enough, fears subsides .
> *Recoil- *get a Pachmayr recoil pad and a Boss system.
> *Can shoot*- Military training or time on the gun range will overcome that.
> (Read "simpleman"'s post above)


 Here is my point say you have a 12 year old girl and you have a 223 and a 270 sitting at the house. Which one do you think she would feel more comfortable shooting her first deer with? Or like my girlfriend she feels more comfortable shooting my AR vs my rifle because I have a collapsible stock and can make the gun fit her. I'm not going to hand her my .270 and expect her to kill a deer a deer with it. Now some people will argue and say get another weapon. But not every has the money to buy a new weapon. So in this scenario a .223 would be better than using my .270


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## Brandon_SPC

sure said:


> i wish the OP who poked the stick in this yellow jacket hole would tell us which bullet was used, my guess is a ballistic tip something or other


 I know he never told us what bullet. I'm saying a 55gr Hornady Vmax.


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## Harbison

It's not that the .223 is a hated round; it's a very good round for what it is intended. 
Looks like some say it's the best of the best for just about anything. Some even say they have dropped hundreds of hogs in their track without a single one running.
Some also live in a very unrealistic little world. 
Some suggest using a .308. Extremely good advice. Different from the .223, the .308 was designed for hunting. It does the job!


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## sniperpeeps

The title of this post should have read "Confirmed, if you make a poor shot your deer will run"


----------



## sniperpeeps

Harbison said:


> It's not that the .223 is a hated round; it's a very good round for what it is intended.
> Looks like some say it's the best of the best for just about anything. Some even say they have dropped hundreds of hogs in their track without a single one running.
> Some also live in a very unrealistic little world.
> Some suggest using a .308. Extremely good advice. Different from the .223, the .308 was designed for hunting. It does the job!


I am assuming this is aimed at me. When I was stationed at benning, teaching people how to shoot and other things at the schoolhouse, there was a serious pig problem. They were offering $40 a tail for quite sometime. I hunted with nothing but an AR and killed a ton of them. Pigs have a big head, it's a very easy shot especially inside 100 yards. You keep plugging them with that cannon, I'll stick to my little pea shooter. Never tracked a pig, not once.


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## Brandon_SPC

Harbison said:


> It's not that the .223 is a hated round; it's a very good round for what it is intended.
> Looks like some say it's the best of the best for just about anything. Some even say they have dropped hundreds of hogs in their track without a single one running.
> Some also live in a very unrealistic little world.
> Some suggest using a .308. Extremely good advice. Different from the .223, the .308 was designed for hunting. It does the job!


None of us had said that. What most of the people that side with the .223. I bet ever last one of us had said pick the right bullet and the right shot placement. But I guess most people that side with the cannons don't read that part.

RIGHT BULLET+ RIGHT SHOT PLACEMENT= DEAD DEER. 

Actually let me rephrase that dead anything.

But since the .308 was made for hunting and can kill everything would you use a 110gr vmax to go hunt a moose? No just like you wouldn't use a vmax to shoot a deer with a 223 like been said previous.

RIGHT BULLET+ RIGHT SHOT PLACEMENT= DEAD DEER.


----------



## doggfish

kdawg.84 said:


> "Never had one take a step" either you have killed 5 deer in your life or your full of it. You could cut a deers heart out with a pocket knife and they can still run off!


wrong.... its called waiting for a good shot...My two deer rifles for years were my 92 winchester in 44-40 and my .223 one a pistol calibered cowboy rifle the other a ar-15. At 52 years old I have killed more than my share of deer. I don't shoot wildly if there was any doubt that I couldn't take the deer I would let it pass. That's where practice,practice,practice at the gun range comes in...And knowing the limitations of myself and the rifle I was using..no I'm not Annie Oakley Or Rambo either( but I have shot competition since R.O.T.C. in high school and won a silver medal in 1981 for the 2/72 in the 2nd Infantry Division a score of 273 out of 300 at 300 meters then Cowboy action shooting (S.A.S.S.) till carpal tunnel pretty much ended my hunting days. Nowadays I pretty much just build rifles for a hobby or for friends.


----------



## doggfish

sniperpeeps said:


> I am assuming this is aimed at me. When I was stationed at benning, teaching people how to shoot and other things at the schoolhouse, there was a serious pig problem. They were offering $40 a tail for quite sometime. I hunted with nothing but an AR and killed a ton of them. Pigs have a big head, it's a very easy shot especially inside 100 yards. You keep plugging them with that cannon, I'll stick to my little pea shooter. Never tracked a pig, not once.


Sounds like it is his way or it's wrong....That pea shooter is more than capable for deer...considering the size of Florida deer I wouldn't think you would need a howitzer for one...Do deer in Florida wear kevlar? I'm not knocking Florida believe me..but being famous for big bucks or big slickheads..i have never heard of Florida being on that list. Feel free to show me other wise never too old to learn.

doggfish
your best friend you have never met


----------



## doggfish

sniperpeeps said:


> I am assuming this is aimed at me. When I was stationed at benning, teaching people how to shoot and other things at the schoolhouse, there was a serious pig problem. They were offering $40 a tail for quite sometime. I hunted with nothing but an AR and killed a ton of them. Pigs have a big head, it's a very easy shot especially inside 100 yards. You keep plugging them with that cannon, I'll stick to my little pea shooter. Never tracked a pig, not once.


Something to be said for military training at the range....and by the way fellow vet...thank you for your service and being my brother in arms.:notworthy:
2nd I.D. 1980-1981
C-4-1 Fort Knox Disneyland Armor Training School 1981-1983
doggfish


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## doggfish

Brandon_SPC said:


> I know he never told us what bullet. I'm saying a 55gr Hornady Vmax.


The v-max 55 grain with a 1in 7 twist is a very capable bullet...good shot placement=dead deer


----------



## Brandon_SPC

doggfish said:


> The v-max 55 grain with a 1in 7 twist is a very capable bullet...good shot placement=dead deer


 I know it will. Just being a really thin jacket round if you do hit a bone it could cause it to blow up and not penetrate deep enough. I was just using that bullet to try and prove a point that you have choice the right bullet for the right application. I personally wouldn't use a vmax for deer. Me I would use Fusion, Power Point, Gold Dot, GMX, Barnes. Something that is bonded and retains its weight.


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## sniperpeeps

I have always loved the powerpoints. Been shooting those for years and years in multiple calibers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bigbulls

This .223 vs. deer argument is exactly like the .270 vs. elk argument. Dumb as . It works, end of story. If you make a shot expect results. Period.



The .223 with a 60 grain nosler partition 3160 fps puts out 1330 foot pounds of energy for 8.86 foot pounds of energy per pound of deer assuming a 150 pound buck and .4 grains of bullet weight per pound.

The .300 win mag with a 180 grain nosler partition at 2960 fps puts out 3502 foot pounds of energy for 5 foot pounds of energy per pound of elk assuming a 700 pound elk. And .26 grains of bullet weight per pound of animal.

Looks like the .223 is nearly twice as effective at killing deer than the .300 win mag is at killing elk. Assuming the shooter uses the proper bullet for both animals.

In order to get the same energy and bullet weight levels for an elk you would need to shoot a 280 grain bullet at 3160 fps to generate 6202 foot pounds of KE.


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## 192

Designed for military and released to the public in 1952 by Olin. Adopted by NATO in 1954. But you were pretty close.


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## bigbulls

I deleted that part to avoid another pissing match but the military was in the process of design and testing the NATO round when Winchester saw a commercial market for the same cartridge and introduced it commercially before it was officially adopted by the military. Bottom line is it was designed as a military cartridge.


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## John B.

It's definitely winter. 

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


----------



## 192

This is still dumb. We going to the range or what?


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## John B.

Yeah. Let's do it. 

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## Brandon_SPC

grouper22 said:


> Designed for military and released to the public in 1952 by Olin. Adopted by NATO in 1954. But you were pretty close.


"Winchester Ammunition (a division of the Olin Corporation) saw the market for a civilian model of the T65 cartridge and released it commercially in 1952 as the .308 Winchester, two years prior to adoption of the cartridge by NATO."
So it just looks like Winchester beat NATO to the punch when releasing. So it was designed for military but Winchester released it first.
Another note it needs to be December 21st so I can go back out to the woods deer hunting. My lady is driving me nuts!


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## Telum Pisces

I shoot 180gr round nose 30-06 sledge hammers at my little deer. I've shot them in the chest, broad side, in the rear end and all in between. As long as my sledge hammer make it into the chest cavity and I don't just miss or skin them, I have recovered every last deer I have shot. I probably just jinxed myself. I've shot a few twice while they were on the run thinking I missed the first time only to find them hit perfectly the first time. 

Deer are amazing resilient animals. I have blown their heart and lungs to mush only to have them run 70-100 yards. Don't know how? But non the less, the temporary wound channel created from my monster round does the trick even if I make a "bad" shot. Exit wounds are key to recovery too. A high entrance wound from a shot from a tree stand and no exit wound means that the body cavity simply fills up with blood and there's nothing to track. Been there done that with an archery shot. 

The truth of the matter is that deer and hunting shots are never exact. And if you hunt long enough, you will loose a deer!!!!! Plain and simple. Due to a bad shot or just one bad ass deer! You can sit here and argue till you're blue in the face about it. But it's just hunting fellas. Due what you feel is best and have fun doing it. That's what it's all about to me. I will advise anyone to go as big as they feel comfortable shooting. But I will not look down on a guy going after an animal with their chosen rifle. I may throw some advice their way and be done with it. But then I'll smile and say, let's go kill one!!!

I enjoy seeing my buddy next to me make that kill shot just as much as if I pulled the trigger myself.

I'll be out trying to get my brother in law his first deer after Christmas. I am hoping he get's the chance to finally get bloody. It's been three years and he took a shot and missed last year with me. But he doesn't get that much to hunt except when he comes into town with me. But I'll be out there in BW giving it my best for him. I just love being out there whether I kill something or not.


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## Telum Pisces

grouper22 said:


> This is still dumb. We going to the range or what?


Forget the range, when are going to get out and shoot something other than paper? I'll be out with my brother in law Jan 2nd. Anyone going to be out in BW then.


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## John B.

Telum Pisces said:


> Forget the range, when are going to get out and shoot something other than paper? I'll be out with my brother in law Jan 2nd. Anyone going to be out in BW then.


I'll be out there.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## CSA

wasn't this topic on the banned list?


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## doggfish

Brandon_SPC said:


> I know it will. Just being a really thin jacket round if you do hit a bone it could cause it to blow up and not penetrate deep enough. I was just using that bullet to try and prove a point that you have choice the right bullet for the right application. I personally wouldn't use a vmax for deer. Me I would use Fusion, Power Point, Gold Dot, GMX, Barnes. Something that is bonded and retains its weight.


i agree about the thin jacket I have seen where the jacket just peels away...last year i built me a new ar with a 1 in 9 twist still haven't shot it...(building too many trucks at the truck plant) cant wait to see what a 77 grainer can do out of this gun. Should hit like a mack truck


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## doggfish

CSA said:


> wasn't this topic on the banned list?


aww it's makes good reading and conversation.....what's life without a little diversity? LOL


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## kdawg.84

doggfish said:


> wrong.... its called waiting for a good shot...My two deer rifles for years were my 92 winchester in 44-40 and my .223 one a pistol calibered cowboy rifle the other a ar-15. At 52 years old I have killed more than my share of deer. I don't shoot wildly if there was any doubt that I couldn't take the deer I would let it pass. That's where practice,practice,practice at the gun range comes in...And knowing the limitations of myself and the rifle I was using..no I'm not Annie Oakley Or Rambo either( but I have shot competition since R.O.T.C. in high school and won a silver medal in 1981 for the 2/72 in the 2nd Infantry Division a score of 273 out of 300 at 300 meters then Cowboy action shooting (S.A.S.S.) till carpal tunnel pretty much ended my hunting days. Nowadays I pretty much just build rifles for a hobby or for friends.


Wasn't running you or your shooting capabilities down in any way. Just saying that if you have never had a deer take a step after shooting them then you haven't shot many (I think my exact guess was 5) or your full of sh-t? By reading all your great deeds from the novel you wrote I'm pretty sure which one it is.


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## Brandon_SPC

CSA said:


> wasn't this topic on the banned list?


 I think the banned list was a recommendation. Or at least it hasn't been made a sticky.


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## doggfish

kdawg.84 said:


> Wasn't running you or your shooting capabilities down in any way. Just saying that if you have never had a deer take a step after shooting them then you haven't shot many (I think my exact guess was 5) or your full of sh-t? By reading all your great deeds from the novel you wrote I'm pretty sure which one it is.


No novel truth....sorry to burst your bubble...think what you will I really don't give a ..but have a nice day trolling

doggfish


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## outdooraddict

Ha! I did start a war. This is the most comments I have ever seen on a post.


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## sureicanfish

outdooraddict said:


> Ha! I did start a war. This is the most comments I have ever seen on a post.


come clean then, what was the ammo used?


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## kdawg.84

So how many is it dogfish? 4 or 5 now that you've shot that didn't take a step?


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## sniperpeeps

kdawg.84 said:


> So how many is it dogfish? 4 or 5 now that you've shot that didn't take a step?



You must be super bored


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CSA

sure said:


> come clean then, what was the ammo used?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
x2


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## kdawg.84

sniperpeeps said:


> You must be super bored
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At work ha ha ha ha ha


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## Harbison

No one is saying a .223 will not kill a deer. However when using any 22 caliber shot placement is more critical than with a .30 caliber. Most of us, myself included, are not expert marksmen. In addition, many times that trophy does not come out until late in the evening when light is fading. This makes for a much more difficult shot. That 'precise' shot from even our expert can be a little off; here is where a bigger caliber comes into its own. The more damage inflected, the better the chance of a humane kill. A .308 or larger will inflect much more damage than any .223 round. 
To all vets...'Thank you!' Your are the reason America has been, is, and will always be FREE. We owe everything we have to you. For this we can never thank you enough. 
.


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## sniperpeeps

Harbison said:


> No one is saying a .223 will not kill a deer. However when using any 22 caliber shot placement is more critical than with a .30 caliber. Most of us, myself included, are not expert marksmen. In addition, many times that trophy does not come out until late in the evening when light is fading. This makes for a much more difficult shot. That 'precise' shot from even our expert can be a little off; here is where a bigger caliber comes into its own. The more damage inflected, the better the chance of a humane kill. A .308 or larger will inflect much more damage than any .223 round.
> To all vets...'Thank you!' Your are the reason America has been, is, and will always be FREE. We owe everything we have to you. For this we can never thank you enough.
> .



I would argue that shot placement is critical no matter what the caliber. I don't know if you saw the photo of the doe I posted earlier in the thread, but I shot her square in the neck just below the head with a 220 grain, 30-06 soft point. She hit the ground and flopped around for 10-15 seconds before getting up and hauling tail. Where she hit the ground looked like a murder scene, but the blood trail was tough to follow. She went by my estimate at least 350 yards. Here is my point, I made a relatively poor shot. I was trying to hit her in the spine where it meets the head. I hit just a little low, maybe an inch, from dropping her on the spot. I feel fortunate that I found that deer. 

As pointed out earlier, it's all about what you are comfortable with. I am confident with anything from .223 on up for deer. Some may prefer .30 caliber and up. Heck, I know several people who use a dang .300 winmag to hunt deer with around here and to me that is nuts, but it's what they are comfortable using.


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## Harbison

I must agree that the best weapon, caliber, is that which one feels most comfortable with. A .223 is fine as long as one realizes its limitations and acts accordingly. 
Personally I can empathize with the use of a .300 mag. Not only are it's limitations minimal, but the same gun is equally at home for close as well as shots hundreds of yards away; for Florida deer, or the biggest Alaskan moose.


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## Brandon_SPC

Harbison said:


> I must agree that the best weapon, caliber, is that which one feels most comfortable with. A .223 is fine as long as one realizes its limitations and acts accordingly.
> Personally I can empathize with the use of a .300 mag. Not only are it's limitations minimal, but the same gun is equally at home for close as well as shots hundreds of yards away; for Florida deer, or the biggest Alaskan moose.


 So you are agreeing after what all the .223 owners have said "You have to know your limitation and act accordingly?" So like making the right shot and using the right bullet?


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## Harbison

*Ethical hunter*

Absolutely! The "right shot and using the right bullet" are essential with any weapon. The smaller the round, the more 'limitations.' With a near perfect shot A .223 will drop a deer in its tracks, but that shot had better be a good one. The margin of error is much smaller than with a heaver cartridge. 
So exactly what does WIKIPEDIA say about the .223:
"The .223 Remington is one of the most common rifle cartridges in use in the United States, being widely used in two types of rifles: (1) varmint rifles, most of which are bolt action and commonly have 1-in-12 rifling twist suitable for bullets between 38 to 55 grains (2.5 to 3.6 g), and (2) semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14, which are commonly found to have twist rates of 1-in-7, 1-in-9, or 1-in-8. The semi-automatic rifle category is often used by law enforcement, for home defense, target shooters, and for varmint hunting. 223 Remington ammunition is among the least expensive" BINGO! "Least expensive!" now that says a great deal. 
Neither of the 'two types of rifles' are listed as deer rifles. Does this mean that they are no good for deer? Absolutely not! Not for the ethical hunter who understands, 'limitations.'


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## SaltWaterBuck

just to put it out there someone is saying that a .223 wont kill a deer...............its the title of the dang thread


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## skullmount1988

No grown man should use a .223 to kill deer or pigs. Kids and women using a .223 is fine but a grown man should feel comfortable shooting something a bit bigger. Hell my girlfriend is 5'2 and just over 100 lbs and shoots a 7 mm 08 just fine. I think it's unethical for a grown man to use a smaller caliber because you should wanna make the death quick and easy as possible for the animal. If you were a deer would you rather be shot with a .223 or something bigger?


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## Brandon_SPC

skullmount1988 said:


> No grown man should use a .223 to kill deer or pigs. Kids and women using a .223 is fine but a grown man should feel comfortable shooting something a bit bigger. Hell my girlfriend is 5'2 and just over 100 lbs and shoots a 7 mm 08 just fine. I think it's unethical for a grown man to use a smaller caliber because you should wanna make the death quick and easy as possible for the animal. If you were a deer would you rather be shot with a .223 or something bigger?


So in your eyes kids and women are fine but a grown man isn't? Then your second question is If I was a deer would I rather get shot with a .223 or something bigger? Please explain why it isn't okay for a grown man but okay for a kid or woman because either way the deer is getting shot with a .223. Not being a dick head. I know how comments can come across. And to answer your question if I was a deer I would hopefully be shot by a person that make but it in the lungs or heart whether it is a .223 up to a 50BMG. I can't believe I answered that question


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## John B.

This is the stupidest I've ever read... while we're at it... you're a puss if you drive a 2wd truck.... and light beer? Real men don't drink light beer.

Good god. Get over yourself. Hunt with what you want and quit worrying about the other guy. Y'all sound like a bunch of damn women.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## skullmount1988

If a kid say 5 or 6 is shooting a .223 is understandable because he's not gonna be able to shoot a 30 06. I'm not saying .223 can't and won't kill because it will but why shoot it if you CAN shoot something bigger and make a more ethical kill making the animal suffer less? Say I shoot a deer in the lungs with a .270 and you shoot one in the lungs with the .223 what deer is gonna die first? Most likely the one with the bigger hole through them.


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## John B.

skullmount1988 said:


> If a kid say 5 or 6 is shooting a .223 is understandable because he's not gonna be able to shoot a 30 06. I'm not saying .223 can't and won't kill because it will but why shoot it if you CAN shoot something bigger and make a more ethical kill making the animal suffer less? Say I shoot a deer in the lungs with a .270 and you shoot one in the lungs with the .223 what deer is gonna die first? Most likely the one with the bigger hole through them.


If you're worried about a .223 not being an ethical kill, go throw your bow in the trash. No offense but you're making yourself look stupid now.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


----------



## Brandon_SPC

skullmount1988 said:


> If a kid say 5 or 6 is shooting a .223 is understandable because he's not gonna be able to shoot a 30 06. I'm not saying .223 can't and won't kill because it will but why shoot it if you CAN shoot something bigger and make a more ethical kill making the animal suffer less? Say I shoot a deer in the lungs with a .270 and you shoot one in the lungs with the .223 what deer is gonna die first? Most likely the one with the bigger hole through them.


 Both are going to probably run 30-50 yards and die. I actually know a few people in Texas that are grown men that just physically can't shoot something that big just like some grown men can't shoot a 60 or 70lb bow.


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## skullmount1988

See you are illiterate. I said a MORE ethical kill. I don't give what anyone hunts with.


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## kdawg.84

Posts# 200 here we come ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
I don't give a damn you can all hunt with a boomerang for all I care. It's the BS lies that kill me. Ha ha ha ha


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## John B.

skullmount1988 said:


> See you are illiterate. I said a MORE ethical kill. I don't give to what anyone hunts with.


What does it matter... a dead deer is a dead deer is a dead deer


You obviously do give 2 or you wouldn't have asked.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## skullmount1988

Brandon_SPC said:


> Both are going to probably run 30-50 yards and die. I actually know a few people in Texas that are grown men that just physically can't shoot something that big just like some grown men can't shoot a 60 or 70lb bow.


Yea I know people like that as well but guess what they aren't shooting the .223 or the crossbow because they want to. It's because they are unable to shoot the bigger gun or compound bow.


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## skullmount1988

John B. said:


> What does it matter... a dead deer is a dead deer is a dead deer
> 
> 
> You obviously do give 2 or you wouldn't have asked.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S5....


Your right a dead deer is a dead deer doesn't matter how you kill it. Only matters if you recover it.


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## Brandon_SPC

skullmount1988 said:


> Yea I know people like that as well but guess what they aren't shooting the .223 or the crossbow because they want to. It's because they are unable to shoot the bigger gun or compound bow.


But they are still grown men. My point is either way the deer is getting shot with a .223 whether it is a first time hunter or an experienced hunter.
If you know you can harvest a deer successfully with a .223 go ahead. Whether a deer is shot with a .223 or a .270 in the lungs they will die usually less than 60 yards. I shot that deer with a 22 hornet a few years back and he ran 25 yards. When I shot him it was at 20 yards using a 45 gr speer-hot core. Bust the ribs and turned the lungs and heart to mush. I used the right bullet, picked the right shot placement. Dead deer.


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## SaltWaterBuck

John B. said:


> If you're worried about a .223 not being an ethical kill, go throw your bow in the trash. No offense but you're making yourself look stupid now.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S5....


im glad that someone else sees the relevancy of that comparison


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## SaltWaterBuck

skullmount1988 said:


> No grown man should use a .223 to kill deer or pigs. Kids and women using a .223 is fine but a grown man should feel comfortable shooting something a bit bigger. Hell my girlfriend is 5'2 and just over 100 lbs and shoots a 7 mm 08 just fine. I think it's unethical for a grown man to use a smaller caliber because you should wanna make the death quick and easy as possible for the animal. If you were a deer would you rather be shot with a .223 or something bigger?


if i were a deer i would rather a grown man shoot me in the pumphouse with a .223 than have an inexperienced nervous kid shoot me in the guts with it


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## Comfortably Numb

One thing needs to be mentioned that may help someone avoid a fine in another state. The .223 is not a legal hunting caliber for deer in several states. I know that Tennessee, Virginia, and colorado do not allow them for deer as i have hunted in these states. Right or wrong, the ones writing the laws have decided that the .223 is not to be used in their state. Be sure to check the regulations before you hit the woods with an AR over Christmas if you travel to family/friends in other states.


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## Try'n Hard

If I had a .223 I would shoot myself to keep me from reading some of the posts on this thread.... Don't worry - I'm sure I'll survive!

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


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## John B.

Try'n Hard said:


> If I had a .223 I would shoot myself to keep me from reading some of the posts on this thread.... Don't worry - I'm sure I'll survive!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


You can borrow mine.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## bigbulls

I'm trying to figure out how it is ethical for an 8 year old kid to shoot a deer with a .223 but not a grown man. If its "unethical" for a grown man to use one then it sure as hell is "unethical" for a young kid to use one and the parent should have enough "ethics and morals" to not allow the kid to use the .223 and require him/her to sit with dad until such time he/she is old enough to use a cartridge that is "ethical".


Any one ever use a .270 to kill an elk or moose? I'm going elk hunting and thinking about using my .270 instead of my .300wsm or .338rum. Is the .270 enough gun for these big animals?


I also want to go to Africa and hunt the big 5 dangerous game animals. Should I buy a 416 or do you think my 300 or 338 will work?


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## John B.

bigbulls said:


> I'm trying to figure out how it is ethical for an 8 year old kid to shoot a deer with a .223 but not a grown man. If its "unethical" for a grown man to use one then it sure as hell is "unethical" for a young kid to use one and the parent should have enough "ethics and morals" to not allow the kid to use the .223 and require him/her to sit with dad until such time he/she is old enough to use a cartridge that is "ethical".


About as unethical as letting a little kid shoot a deer with a 40lb draw weight bow, and only find half the deer he shoots... but I digress.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## delta dooler

Outdooraddict has stirred up quite the hornets nest! Lol


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## skullmount1988

bigbulls said:


> I'm trying to figure out how it is ethical for an 8 year old kid to shoot a deer with a .223 but not a grown man. If its "unethical" for a grown man to use one then it sure as hell is "unethical" for a young kid to use one and the parent should have enough "ethics and morals" to not allow the kid to use the .223 and require him/her to sit with dad until such time he/she is old enough to use a cartridge that is "ethical".
> 
> 
> Any one ever use a .270 to kill an elk or moose? I'm going elk hunting and thinking about using my .270 instead of my .300wsm or .338rum. Is the .270 enough gun for these big animals?
> 
> 
> I also want to go to Africa and hunt the big 5 dangerous game animals. Should I buy a 416 or do you think my 300 or 338 will work?


Wasn't saying the caliber is unethical but more the choice to choose that weapon over a bigger caliber. If I have a .223 sitting in the gun case next to my .270wsm. I should never choose the .223 over the .270. Like everyone has stated in previous posts the .223 is very capable of killing a deer no matter who is shooting it. But again an 8 year old can't shoot the bigger guns so yes it's acceptable for him or her to use.


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## John B.

skullmount1988 said:


> Wasn't saying the caliber is unethical but more the choice to choose that weapon over a bigger caliber. If I have a .223 sitting in the gun case next to my .270wsm. I should never choose the .223 over the .270. Like everyone has stated in previous posts the .223 is very capable of killing a deer no matter who is shooting it. But again an 8 year old can't shoot the bigger guns so yes it's acceptable for him or her to use.


Using that same logic, why wouldn't you be shooting a 50bmg by now? If a .223 is just as capable as killing a deer as a .270? If it makes you feel more like a man to shoot something bigger, have at it... you make no sense to me.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## sniperpeeps

skullmount1988 said:


> No grown man should use a .223 to kill deer or pigs. Kids and women using a .223 is fine but a grown man should feel comfortable shooting something a bit bigger. Hell my girlfriend is 5'2 and just over 100 lbs and shoots a 7 mm 08 just fine. I think it's unethical for a grown man to use a smaller caliber because you should wanna make the death quick and easy as possible for the animal. If you were a deer would you rather be shot with a .223 or something bigger?



This post wins the dumbest post for the thread award. So, by your logic, let's put the small caliber in the hands of inexperienced hunters who are more likely to wound an animal with a poor shot but an adult male who can make a clean kill with a .223 shouldn't because it's not manly enough? That is absurd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SaltWaterBuck

case i cant get a clear shot :whistling:


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## John B.

SaltWaterBuck said:


> case i cant get a clear shot :whistling:


Shit... in case he's behind an Oak tree.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


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## sniperpeeps

skullmount1988 said:


> Wasn't saying the caliber is unethical but more the choice to choose that weapon over a bigger caliber. If I have a .223 sitting in the gun case next to my .270wsm. I should never choose the .223 over the .270. Like everyone has stated in previous posts the .223 is very capable of killing a deer no matter who is shooting it. But again an 8 year old can't shoot the bigger guns so yes it's acceptable for him or her to use.



I got my first deer rifle when I was 8. Browning a-bolt 30-06 with a BOSS. I didn't hunt with a .223 until I was an adult. I prefer a .243 for deer but I love .223 for pigs. No reason at all for me personally to go bigger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Az-Vic

Harbison; not nit picking, but you keep rambling about the .223 being required to take that "perfect shot", in order to drop a deer in its tracks. If one attempts to take the type of shot which will do that, a spine or head shot is required. To my mind, that is the least desirable shot to take regardless of caliber. The brain is a mighty small target, maybe the size of a small apple?, and the spine is maybe the size of a toilet paper roll, even though it runs the length of the animal, it's a small target.
I trust Im not in the minority, but the most desirable shot, and most lethal, is the heart/lung/liver shot, and that my friend, is a pretty fair sized target, probably approaching maybe 14 inches long and five or six inches high? I come from a long background in competition shooting, although older and obviously not as good as I once was, I can still make a good shot on demand, just not as fast nor as precise. Im sure I could shoot a buck in the head if I chose to, but it's a extremely low percentage shot, that big long rectangle of a kill zone, the one that takes care of the hydraulics and oxygen distribution, that's the one I always take. A hole thru the rib cage, jellied lungs and many times a quarter sized exit, and you can eat right up to the hole!
Most deer, when hit with ANY caliber in the heart/lung/liver area, do not drop like a rock, the usually perform the death sprint for 20-60 yards, no matter if hit with a .223,or a 340 wthby mag....I'll stop, Im beginning to ramble, but I hate reading negative discourse about a rifle/caliber that I in fact know about and have used to take many many animals with, from someone who doesn't.


----------



## sniperpeeps

skullmount1988 said:


> If a kid say 5 or 6 is shooting a .223 is understandable because he's not gonna be able to shoot a 30 06. I'm not saying .223 can't and won't kill because it will but why shoot it if you CAN shoot something bigger and make a more ethical kill making the animal suffer less? Say I shoot a deer in the lungs with a .270 and you shoot one in the lungs with the .223 what deer is gonna die first? Most likely the one with the bigger hole through them.



They would die at the same time. Loss of lung power is loss of lung power. He can't breathe any less by being shot with one or the other. Do yourself a favor and look into terminal ballistics of a few of the rounds we mention. You might learn something about what bullets do to things when they hit them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## skullmount1988

sniperpeeps said:


> This post wins the dumbest post for the thread award. So, by your logic, let's put the small caliber in the hands of inexperienced hunters who are more likely to wound an animal with a poor shot but an adult male who can make a clean kill with a .223 shouldn't because it's not manly enough? That is absurd.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never said let an inexperienced kid shoot it. kids should have plenty of practice with any gun they plan to hunt with. everyone is gonna shoot deer and lose one. It happens but it's more likely to happen with the smaller caliber.


----------



## John B.

skullmount1988 said:


> Never said let an inexperienced kid shoot it. kids should have plenty of practice with any gun they plan to hunt with. everyone is gonna shoot deer and lose one. It happens but it's more likely to happen with the smaller caliber.


No, it's more than likely to happen with poor shot placement.



Sent from my Galaxy S5....


----------



## skullmount1988

sniperpeeps said:


> They would die at the same time. Loss of lung power is loss of lung power. He can't breathe any less by being shot with one or the other. Do yourself a favor and look into terminal ballistics of a few of the rounds we mention. You might learn something about what bullets do to things when they hit them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your lungs hold air. The bigger the hole the faster the air runs out and the faster the deer dies.


----------



## sureicanfish

.053" difference in "hole size" between .270 (.277") and .223 (.224"), that's like a spark plug gap.


----------



## bowfisher91

Roll tide!


----------



## John B.

bowfisher91 said:


> Roll tide!


You dirty dog.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


----------



## CSA

sure said:


> .053" difference in "hole size" between .270 (.277") and .223 (.224"), that's like a spark plug gap.


Don't add a 270 in this mix, that should be for a new thread.


----------



## sniperpeeps

Holy smokes we will make it 200 before the nights over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SaltWaterBuck

we can do it............come on 200 !!!


----------



## Contender

This has to be one of the fastest growing threads yet, guessing if there was some way to bring FSU/SEC/UA football, pier fishing and the selling/stealing/ revealing of bottom numbers it might get to 500


----------



## kdawg.84

War eagle #200. 
I hunt with buckshot and dogs that way I can cripple deer and piss still hunters off at the same time.


----------



## Grassflatsfisher

kdawg.84 said:


> War eagle #200.


Yes! 2nd greatest post of all time!


----------



## Splittine

Contender said:


> This has to be one of the fastest growing threads yet, guessing if there was some way to bring FSU/SEC/UA football, pier fishing and the selling/stealing/ revealing of bottom numbers it might get to 500



This is tame compared to what we had 4-5 years ago.


----------



## HeavyD

Cant believe I've actually sat here and read this whole thing.....started to add my two cents but Im pretty sure this has been beat to death


----------



## johnf

bigbulls said:


> I'm trying to figure out how it is ethical for an 8 year old kid to shoot a deer with a .223 but not a grown man. If its "unethical" for a grown man to use one then it sure as hell is "unethical" for a young kid to use one and the parent should have enough "ethics and morals" to not allow the kid to use the .223 and require him/her to sit with dad until such time he/she is old enough to use a cartridge that is "ethical".
> 
> 
> Any one ever use a .270 to kill an elk or moose? I'm going elk hunting and thinking about using my .270 instead of my .300wsm or .338rum. Is the .270 enough gun for these big animals?
> 
> 
> I also want to go to Africa and hunt the big 5 dangerous game animals. Should I buy a 416 or do you think my 300 or 338 will work?


You see it's because a grown man shouldn't shoot a 223 unless he's using it to shoot another grown man, or I guess himself. But If he were really grown he would shoot that other man with a 270, because that would be more ethical, unless of course he had a 338 or perhaps a 50bmg and that would be a lot more ethical and he would be more of a man for shooting it. Unless he had a cannon...........


----------



## johnf

skullmount1988 said:


> Your lungs hold air. The bigger the hole the faster the air runs out and the faster the deer dies.


Do you know that's not how it works! It's not like a ballon with a hole in it. If you had ever seen the inside of a deer shot with a 223 you would be whistling a different tune. There's not a clean 223 sized hole, most of the organs are jello soup. I shot one doe with a quartering shot and went in at the liver. We couldn't find a single piece that looked like it was the liver. The thing was just gone. She dropped in about 15 yards.


----------



## Getsome

Dang!! 21 pages? You would have thought a pier rat had slung some fishing led at a boater to get this many pages!


----------



## sniperpeeps

Getsome said:


> Dang!! 21 pages? You would have thought a pier rat had slung some fishing led at a boater to get this many pages!



We are saving that thread for March:thumbup:


----------



## Jason

OK, lets break it down because 21 pages haven't officially clarified it. 

A 17 will kill a deer.
A 50 BMG will kill a deer.
A 223 will kill a deer but not recommended.
A 223 is recommended to kill a deer.
All of us have used the previous listed calibers to shoot and kill a deer.

I think it hasn't been brought up that guys are just using calibers to compensate fer their own "gun"...Not sure where I would fit in to this because I love 17-50!!!!! Hahahaha


----------



## Contender

Trying to convince either side of this discussion to change sides is like trying to teach a pig to sing, it only aggravates the pig and wastes your time. It can be entertaining to those watching, LoL


----------



## Kenton

Get a Grendel and be done with it.


----------



## Telum Pisces

Nothing smaller than this will kill a deer in NWFL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WiLqPB4lU0


----------



## Kenton

Telum Pisces said:


> Nothing smaller than this will kill a deer in NWFL.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WiLqPB4lU0


I think they are worried about maiming the deer, not if there will BE a deer after the shot.


----------



## HeavyD

I may be the only one but I actually agree with skull mount 100% just for the record..... No point in handicapping yourself if you are capable of using a caliber that is more effecient, and designed for the task at hand.Its about the quickest most humane kill possible. Sorry to keep this thread going but someone had to back the guy up lol


----------



## delta dooler

This what goose has to say about deer hunting with a .223


----------



## Telum Pisces

Kenton said:


> I think they are worried about maiming the deer, not if there will BE a deer after the shot.


I thought we were about recovering a deer. You didn't say in what condition!:thumbsup:


----------



## Kenton

Or how much? lol


----------



## sniperpeeps

HeavyD said:


> I may be the only one but I actually agree with skull mount 100% just for the record..... No point in handicapping yourself if you are capable of using a caliber that is more effecient, and designed for the task at hand.Its about the quickest most humane kill possible. Sorry to keep this thread going but someone had to back the guy up lol



A well placed shot with any caliber will kill a deer dead. The only way anyone handicaps themselves is if they can't make a good shot, no matter the caliber.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lettheairout

Think I might just break out my 
.410 and see what I can do.


----------



## Kenton

Dave Canterbury told me that the 410/22 combo will take any animal in the northern hemisphere with the correct shot. So I dont see why not use that. He has never lied to anyone.


----------



## DLo

John B. said:


> If you're worried about a .223 not being an ethical kill, go throw your bow in the trash. No offense but you're making yourself look stupid now.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy S5....


THIS!! There is no in between argument, if .223 is not ethical to deer hunt with then archery should have been outlawed long time ago, and anyone who thinks that .243 is not a sufficient deer round has never seen what it does to a deer up close, jelly innards.


----------



## deersniper270

RAWR RAWR RAWR .223 RAWR RAWR RAWR deer RAWR RAWR RAWR my dicks bigger RAWR RAWR RAWR your mom RAWR RAWR RAWR off topic RAWR RAWR RAWR I'm right you're wrong RAWR RAWR RAWR IMHO


----------



## scott44

Wde!!!!


----------



## Harbison

*.308*

Concerning the .223: As I said in the beginning, " be ready for a fight. Some think the .223 is God's gift to man, or woman!" To date this thread has been visited 5,910 times and generated 221 responses. Ever stop to think why so many feel the need to attempt to 'prove' that the .223 is a great choice for deer hunting? Ever stop to think why it's banned in some states. These things alone are enough to send up the red flag. There must be reasons!
Military assault rifles are very popular and for good reason; they are really fun to shoot & look great. 

I have absolutely nothing against the .223 or those who use this weapon. However, it's more limited than just about any .30 caliber. Many simply do not want to be forced into a position requiring that 'perfect' shot. Many don't want to sit on a stand for long periods of time and pass up a very good shot because it's not 'perfect!' 
Want a military assault rifle to hunt with? This .308 is as military as it gets.


----------



## Downtime2

...


----------



## sniperpeeps

God knows I'm bored when I'm commenting on a firearms topic and pouring lead in my garage. Is it March yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## doggfish

sniperpeeps said:


> God knows I'm bored when I'm commenting on a firearms topic and pouring lead in my garage. Is it March yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


amen to that


----------



## doggfish

Kenton said:


> Get a Grendel and be done with it.


would love one in a AR handgun


----------



## SaltWaterBuck

i think there may be some confusion on what this post is all about.........the title says .223 is too small for deer which is not at all true !! its by no means the ideal weapon for making gut shots and there are far better choices for the application but it is plenty capable the OP's wife made a couple bad shots which is why the deer didnt die and why the shot placement topic came about......this post was never about whats a better caliber it is about .223 alone and wether or not its a capable deer round


----------



## Downtime2

...


----------



## Harbison

*Alternatives*

No topic is complete without considering alternatives!


----------



## CSA

Ever stop to think why so many feel the need to attempt to 'prove' that the .223 is a bad choice for deer hunting in Fl.? 

Ever stop to think why it's banned in some states with larger game animals than the average Fl. Deer?


----------



## SaltWaterBuck

Harbison said:


> No topic is complete without considering alternatives!


your absolutely right but everybody wants to say this ones better that ones better which is true but not the point


----------



## CSA

Heck lets see if we can make it to 250-300 post


----------



## John B.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


----------



## sniperpeeps

:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Harbison

*Limitations*

:2guns: Regardless of the weapon used they all have good & bad points. The better choice is which is best for you. The individual hunter is the only one who can make that decision. 
In my 60+ years of hunting I have personally used only two different rifles, a 7 mm BAR, & a Marlin 45-70 stainless guide gun. The 7 mm Mag. is a very powerful round. It is capable of stopping almost anything hundreds of yards away. I have harvested deer in Maine & elk in New Mexico with it. I am just not too much in favor of traviling well over 1,000 miles and passing up a good shot because it's not 'perfect.' 7 mm does the job; it's very versatile 
The elk is from New Mexico; the deer from Maine. Both were long difficult shots. 

I am an avid Florida hog hunter. Somehow they just do not think too much of the idea of being shot. Often the best shot available is through brush. Here is where the 45-70 comes into it's own. It is powerful enough to knock down both the brush & the hog. Ever been chased by an enraged boar that has been hit very hard? I have! Believe me, it's no fun. 45-70 put a stop to that! 

Why only two guns in 60+ years of hunting all over the country? I feel like my guns are an extension of me. I insist on becoming so familiar with them that I know and respect their & my limitations and act accordingly. 
There is simply NO best round for all situations; for all hunters. If one feels most comfortable with a .223, then that is what he or she should be using. However, out of respect for whatever is to be harvested...know the limitations involved and act accordingly.


----------



## SaltWaterBuck

:wallbash: its never been a question if a better round exists or a suggestion that you should abandon your favorite rifle for a .223


----------



## Brandon_SPC

Man these deer didn't run over 50 yards.


----------



## Az-Vic

Harbison.....Gawd love you for still having the fire in the belly to get out there and hunt to the best of your ability, I hope I can still waddle out there and do what I love at your age. Your choice in firearms and calibers are wise and well considered, I can't argue against your use of them.
The discussion is not are there better calibers than a .223, but will it adequately kill a deer, the answer of course is yes, it will handily kill a deer. Where you make me grind my teeth is the constant reference to the necessity of a "perfect shot" when using the .223. The same perfect shot I look for when I have my .223, should be the same perfect shot you look for when using your 7 mag. The proper shot of course is the heart/lung/liver, and it's a BIG target, and not difficult to take from several angles with the exception of from the rear. Im sure your big 45-70 can send a 400 grain slug up a deers azz, and still have enough poop to hit the lungs, but it's not a very good shot with anything.
That perfect shot (heart/lung/liver) can be hit with a .223 from broadside, slightly quartering, frontal or downward, as from a tree stand, it is not difficult, it is not small and not tough to get to thru the fragile covering of thin skin and thin pliable ribs of a deer.
The problem lies in the ability of the hunter to get the bullet to the breadbox size target....which for some, seems to get small the more he/she begins to shake like a dog crapping a peach pit when they are excited.


----------



## Kenton

he/she begins to shake like a dog crapping a peach pit when they are excited.

ROFL. That one got me laughing hard. Too funny.


----------



## sureicanfish

That aught ta do'er


----------



## HeavyD

That's how I roll lol


----------



## Harbison

A well placed heart/lung shot will indeed drop a deer/hog in its tracks. However, hunting in the real world is often a great deal different from the range. Adding in such things as wind, brush, estimated distance, and the added adrenalin factors can easily result in a shot that is a few inches off. Be just a little off with a .223 can be a great deal different from being off with a 7 mm Mag. 
Once again, in no way am I saying that a .223 should not be used for deer/hogs. If the hunter feels more comfortable with a .223 that is the weapon that should be used. All I am saying is be aware of its limitations and act accordingly.


----------



## CSA

Cause I believe in using deer dogs


----------



## Az-Vic

Harb....I'll say it one more time....MOST, heart/lung/liver shots do NOT, drop anything in their tracks, they can't, that specific target area is not in relationship or close to the nervous system. MOST, heart/lung/liver shot game animals make a short sprint before death. 
By the way, the tool we use to hunt with is called a firearm, it can be a weapon, but in most hunting situations, our lives are in no danger, thus no need to protect ourselves with a "weapon".....semantics I know, but important semantics to my mind?


----------



## Buckchaser

sure said:


> That aught ta do'er


What you do in your alone time is your business


----------



## Bh7558

Just because one person had a bad day with a 223 and calls it confirmed.

Bah hah hah hah

I have killed deer for 20 years with a 223, (CONFIRMED)

Get her a 50 cal. Wont matter anyway.


----------



## sureicanfish

Bh7558 said:


> Just because one person had a bad day with a 223 and calls it confirmed.
> 
> Bah hah hah hah
> 
> I have killed deer for 20 years with a 223, (CONFIRMED)
> 
> Get her a 50 cal. Wont matter anyway.


This should have been the second post.


----------



## Harbison

*Short run*

That so called 'short run' can be hell in heavy cover. The so called 'short run' can be a lot different when shot with a .308 as compared to a .223. I am not saying that a .223 should not be used for deer/hogs. But I will suggest knowing it's limitations & act accordingly. 
I use the term 'weapon' because that covers just about anything. After all, some can 'prove' that a BB gun, or perhaps a sling shot, is all that is needed.


----------



## sureicanfish

250!! 

Meat from some .223 action


----------



## Buckchaser

I think it's over


----------



## SaltWaterBuck

this is the post that never ends yes it goes on and on my friends..........................


----------



## Downtime2

...


----------



## John B.

Sent from my Galaxy S5....


----------



## Grassflatsfisher




----------



## IM4MOPAR

I just wanna know where ya'll get these cool captions/pic's from?
300 winmagger here, DRT, yup, all 5 of em:thumbup:


----------



## lettheairout

Yup all I use now. Won't walk an inch


somewhere in a tree


----------



## SaltWaterBuck

im ready for late muzzle loader :thumbsup:


----------



## bcbz71

300....here we come. I offer #259


----------



## Grassflatsfisher

SaltWaterBuck said:


> im ready for late muzzle loader :thumbsup:


That looks like the ol' WW aka Waterfowl Widowmaker. 

Let's see how many of you are schooled on where that line came from.


----------



## HeavyD

Grassflatsfisher said:


> That looks like the ol' WW aka Waterfowl Widowmaker.
> 
> Let's see how many of you are schooled on where that line came from.


There is actually a pic of it posted earlier somewhere in all these 300 post on this thread lol....miss watching those guys


----------



## sniperpeeps

Grassflatsfisher said:


> That looks like the ol' WW aka Waterfowl Widowmaker.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see how many of you are schooled on where that line came from.



Check out my meme from a few posts ago. That is old WW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bcbz71

The rain. The boredom. So I offer up post #263:


----------



## Emerald Ghost

bcbz71 said:


> The rain. The boredom. So I offer up post #263:


 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, Lawd have Mercy, he done shot my cuzzin twice ! :yes:


----------



## Downtime2

Found grouper22....


----------



## 192

Is that what you manned in Korea?


----------



## Buckchaser

Just because I'm bored


----------



## delta dooler

Oh lord....you just had to bring this thread back!


----------



## Try'n Hard

Buck chaser needs to go to banned camp!


----------



## lettheairout

Need to dig up the old nickname thread from the end of the season 2 years ago 

sent from somewhere your not


----------



## John B.




----------



## Broadheadstiffshaft

I like to start at the end of the thread and go backwards, it's better that way


----------



## jaster

While we are on this little 28 pagger, whats the longest ever pff thread, that wasnt deleted????


----------



## TFRIZZ30

Well I just read this entire tread to see what I missed 2 years ago ...clearly I can't sleep. My god what a waist of time. But it did leave me with a question... what is the most ethical broad head to use ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MrFish

TFRIZZ30 said:


> Well I just read this entire tread to see what I missed 2 years ago ...clearly I can't sleep. My god what a waist of time. But it did leave me with a question... what is the most ethical broad head to use ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you have good shot placement, field points work.


----------



## Emerald Ghost

Think about it, this .223 debate for shooting a deer is never ending. 

Do you not find it odd that there are not the same lengthy debates about 
25-06, 270, 30's, 7mm's and such ? 
Well....NO, and there is a reason. 
Figure it out and save yourself a lot of frustration, lost deer meat and needless suffering of animals.


----------



## sureicanfish

I sold my .223....but I still got the 22-250!!! It's perfect for straight on chest shots


----------



## Try'n Hard

TFRIZZ30 said:


> Well I just read this entire tread to see what I missed 2 years ago ...clearly I can't sleep. My god what a waist of time. But it did leave me with a question... what is the most ethical broad head to use ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Practice = Ethical


----------



## Emerald Ghost

and sharp blades.


----------



## John B.

.223, just like a bow, is dependent on 1 thing... shot placement. 

To say one is more ethical than the other is a bit silly to me. 

Hit them in the right spot and they gonna die.


----------



## Emerald Ghost

John B. said:


> .223, just like a bow, is dependent on 1 thing... shot placement.
> 
> To say one is more ethical than the other is a bit silly to me.
> 
> Hit them in the right spot and they gonna die.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you referring to the hunter being ethical ?

In order to "hit them in the right spot" as you said, requires a lot of time practicing in addition to understanding the anatomy of a deer, angled shots, etc..

I believe our commitment to spend enough time to be best prepared is what differentiates ethical from not so.


----------



## jcoss15

I just got me some new pellets for my .177. cant wait for ole sad daddy to come walking through...


----------



## 706Z

The answer is Rage = death metal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sureicanfish

Alright, in the interest of seeing this thread make it to 40 pages, here's some math, based on some quick Google searching.

A popular round for moose is 30.06. They weigh anywhere from 600 to 1800 pounds, I went with 750# for this math. An average 180gr 30.06 is carrying 2471 ft pounds of energy at 100 yards. For that 750 pound animal, that's about 3.3 pounds of bullet energy per pound of animal.

Deer are smaller, right??? I went with 140 pounds for the math. A 64gr 22-250 round is carrying about 1350 ft pounds of energy at 100 yards. For that 140 pound monster, that's 9.6 pounds of bullet energy per pound of animal. Almost 3 times that of the moose equation on this basic scale.

Shot placement will be just as important with an 06 on a moose as a 22 cal on a deer. I've shot 2 does with the 250 and one with the 223, all were pass throughs and put deer in the freezer.

And before you bring up the lost hutton buck, read that thread again, there's folks that have lost chest shot deer to much bigger calibers. 


Carry on:thumbsup:


----------



## Achim2

:whistling:Well, its the same like with gals. If they say... Size doesn't matter... Its a lie...


----------



## Bodupp

Everyone should use the same caliber, same bullet, and same rifle that I do. And only take shots that I would take.


----------



## Harbison

Guys, this thread quickly got completely out of control. This is a great, very informative, forum. However, some on here love to start a controversy and keep it going.

"Everyone should use the same caliber, same bullet, and same rifle that I do. And only take shots that I would take."

Unfortunately! Some on here would actually agree with that. 'I don't like it...so you should not like it either!' This is not what sportsmanship is all about. We all have our own ideas as to what everything in our life, including choice of weapons, is best for us. That's the way it should be. In actuality, what is 'best for us' is whatever we feel more comfortable with. It's our, your, choice!
Prefer a .950 JDJ...your choice

How about the popular .223...your choice

Like bow hunting...your choice

"Think about it, this .223 debate for shooting a deer is never ending. 

Do you not find it odd that there are not the same lengthy debates about 
25-06, 270, 30's, 7mm's and such ?

Well....NO, and there is a reason."

Well said! There is a reason. 
".223, just like a bow, is dependent on 1 thing... shot placement. Hit them in the right spot and they gonna die."

ABSOLUTELY! Will a .223 ethically bring down a deer? A big YES! Is 'shot placement' more critical with a smaller round? ABSOLUTELY! The fact is a smaller round simply is not capable of doing the amount of damage as does a bigger boar. The more damage, the better the chance of a humane kill without that "right spot" hit.
Unfortunately, differently from the target range, in the field that "right spot" may not always be available. 
These are considerations in choosing ones weapon of choice. The bottom line is know your weapon, what it will & will not do, as well as what you are capable of doing with it, and act accordingly. What is 'best for us' is whatever we feel more comfortable with. It's your, our choice!


----------



## delta dooler

I think this thread is more about yanking each other's chain more or less than anything else, which I personally think is great that we have the interaction that we do and we can carry on poking each other in the eye one day and commend them the next.


----------



## 192

John B is selling these at the palafox market on Saturdays.


----------



## Harbison

"I personally think is great that we have the interaction that we do and we can carry on poking each other in the eye one day and commend them the next."

Very well said! Like it or not...we are ALL in this together!


----------



## Brandon_SPC2

HAHA I will be using one this year just cause then turn around and shoot one with my 300 ultra just to show they all do the samething... :whistling::thumbsup:


----------



## delta dooler

.223..............the caliber for transgenders!!!!


----------



## Brandon_SPC2

delta dooler said:


> .223..............the caliber for transgenders!!!!


That is the only come back... Come on Dooler I know you have something better than that... hahaha


----------



## Broadheadstiffshaft

I gotta get me one of these 223's, everyone seems to recommend it!


----------



## Harbison

:notworthy: Shot placement does it again !


----------



## skullmount1988

Brandon_SPC2 said:


> HAHA I will be using one this year just cause then turn around and shoot one with my 300 ultra just to show they all do the samething... :whistling::thumbsup:


Let us know which one requires more tracking


----------



## Harbison

UP NEXT !


----------



## Brandon_SPC2

skullmount1988 said:


> Let us know which one requires more tracking


I will, if I get lucky enough to shoot two bucks during rifle season. Hopefully I get lucky enough to just shoot one.... Kind of curious to how the Partitions will perform.


----------



## Harbison

Best of luck to you. Partitions have a very good reputation!


----------



## Downtime2

And, 300 posts it is.....


----------



## sureicanfish

Brandon_SPC2 said:


> I will, if I get lucky enough to shoot two bucks during rifle season. Hopefully I get lucky enough to just shoot one.... Kind of curious to how the Partitions will perform.



5 bucks says pass through. Nosler bonded solid base in .224 went straight through, so did the fusion bullets in .223


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## Harbison

Exactly why I personally prefer a larger caliber bullet. I shot a 7mm mag for many years. Very fast, flat shooting, and powerful. However, "went straight through" was often a consideration. When this happens a great deal of energy exits with the bullet. Without the elusive 'perfect shot' bigger game often has a tendency, even after being hit hard, to run. Switched to the hard hitting 45/70 years ago. With any 30+ caliber there is much more of a chance the bullet will not go "straight through." The energy is delivered where it belongs. Absolutely nothing wrong with weapons such as the very popular .223. However, shot placement is paramount. Regardless of the caliber used, shot placement is important. However, with larger caliber weapons a not so perfect shot placement will result in a much greater chance of a humane kill. 
Looks like this post is still drawing a great deal of attention. Everyone is welcome to his/her own opinions. That is what makes America and this forum so great.


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## Try'n Hard

sure said:


> 5 bucks says pass through. Nosler bonded solid base in .224 went straight through, so did the fusion bullets in .223




5 bucks???? Oh wait - you don't mean that you killed....... Oh! Haha Nevermind! That was really stupid for me to think that - carry on!!


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## sureicanfish

Try'n Hard said:


> 5 bucks???? Oh wait - you don't mean that you killed....... Oh! Haha Nevermind! That was really stupid for me to think that - carry on!!


That's right, 75% of the deer I've killed were with .224 caliber bullets. Granted, I've only killed 4...but 75% sounds good


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## Try'n Hard

sure said:


> That's right, 75% of the deer I've killed were with .224 caliber bullets. Granted, I've only killed 4...but 75% sounds good




Your enjoying this aren't you? I bet you would be good at nailing jello to a tree!


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## sureicanfish

I can nail jello PUDDING to a tree, then shoot the nail 4 times with a 22-250


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## GROUPERKING

Best squirrel gun ever made ! It'll knock'em out of them tall pine trees. A .223 is fine caliber for hunting jack rabbits and musk rats and such. It'll kill 'em all most everytime ! Heck I wouldn't even hesitate to take it on a possum or **** hunt as long as your good enough to hit them in the eye. Probably the best gun to train women and children with at the range, or other people that are sensitive or are scared of recoil. Ok ,now I've got to be honest an say that I don't really care what you shoot, I was just trying to stir the pot a little, and I had to make this long enough to get some people's blood pressure up to the boiling point before they realized that I was just messing with them. 223 baby ! I don't use 'em ... but you can. Lol .....breathe and relax

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## delta dooler

4 deer........not enough to compost any opinion or factual real world data.... Lol


Any deer gonna die on Escambia this year?? Still waiting on you to pile up a swamp sleuth SICF!!


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## delta dooler

Try'n Hard said:


> 5 bucks???? Oh wait - you don't mean that you killed....... Oh! Haha Nevermind! That was really stupid for me to think that - carry on!!


Maybe 5 bucks ran off to die with lil bitty holes in em, 6 miles from where they were shot!!!


Damn SICF, time to start hammering back!


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## Buckchaser

sure said:


> I can nail jello PUDDING to a tree, then shoot the nail 4 times with a 22-250


Unless you tape a rack to it


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## Brandon_SPC2

sure said:


> 5 bucks says pass through. Nosler bonded solid base in .224 went straight through, so did the fusion bullets in .223


That is fine two holes better than one. I will bet it will be a dead deer within 50 yards :thumbsup:


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## sureicanfish

I sure hope escambia wants to be hunted this year, should be some nice deer in there after it stayed flooded most of last season. Gotta have something to punch through some brush there so I'll use my throwing knife


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## Buckchaser

Oh buck deer oh buck deer
No need to fear 
The queer with the .223 is here

Sorry if I offended anyone 😉


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## 706Z

Braaahaha!! Stop it ya'll are killin me !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bodupp

Sometimes ... when you least expect it ... a big ol' buck will walk by at *417 *yards ...

(Sorry. Trying to get Espo to jump in here.)


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## Try'n Hard

Bodupp said:


> Sometimes ... when you least expect it ... a big ol' buck will walk by at *417 *yards ...
> 
> (Sorry. Trying to get Espo to jump in here.)




He's cluckin' somewhere


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## Brandon_SPC2

Buckchaser said:


> Oh buck deer oh buck deer
> No need to fear
> The queer with the .223 is here
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone 😉


Okay seriously you need to be a poet :lol: To good!


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## 192

sure said:


> I can nail jello PUDDING to a tree, then shoot the nail 4 times with a 22-250


Unless it is a Hutton Unit buck...:yes: 

It burns!!!!:thumbsup:


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## Harbison

:thumbup: .223 is a tremendous round for what it was intended...
Anti-personnel & varmint hunting. With a perfectly placed 
shot it will also bring down bigger game.
AR 15 is outstanding for target practice. It can easily be converted to shoot the inexpensive .22 long rifle ammunition.


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## 155SprtFsh

*Brown & Down*

Who's IN.........


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## sureicanfish

How bout put a goat in the picture lol. And they use 22lr to dispatch cattle quite a bit....neener!!


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## Harbison

*too much time on our hands!*

Wow! It's easy to tell hunting season is not here yet. :no:


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## Bodupp

I love it when sicfish goes "neener".

No, I don't have a life. Wanna fight about it?


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## Try'n Hard

Bodupp said:


> I love it when sicfish goes "neener".
> 
> No, I don't have a life. Wanna fight about it?



Neener is all he's got left! I can't believe he's still over here arguing !


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## Brandon_SPC2

I think we need to have a cook out with a knee high pool and do some blind fold boxing!!! Just to get all the heat out before hunting season.... Tension is way to high lol


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## John B.

Brandon_SPC2 said:


> I think we need to have a cook out with a knee high pool and do some blind fold boxing!!! Just to get all the heat out before hunting season.... Tension is way to high lol


There's a few guys here I wouldn't mind hitting with the fat end of a bream buster... I'm sure the feeling is mutual though.


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## sureicanfish

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


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## Harbison

Common for the weekend-warrier 'EXPERTS' this time of year.


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## MrFish

Harbison said:


> :thumbup: .223 is a tremendous round for what it was intended...
> Anti-personnel & varmint hunting. With a perfectly placed
> shot it will also bring down bigger game.
> AR 15 is outstanding for target practice. It can easily be converted to shoot the inexpensive .22 long rifle ammunition.


Speaking of anti-personnel, was that the Florida Fisherman with the crazy dude in the bow pulpit?


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## Harbison

*Fishing & hunting...This is OUR FLORIDA at its best!*

Presume you mean Chris? It was HOT as heck out there. Looks like he found the perfect solution.


Leaving for the Florida Fisherman ll as we speak. Going on a 63 hour deep drop trip. Hope to have a great report. This is what we will be looking for:


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## MrFish

No. I meant the dude with a filet knife that took a trash can and a fire extinguisher to the face.


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## John B.

I can't wait until gun season... ole .223 gonna drop the hammer on em.


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## MrFish

John B. said:


> I can't wait until gun season... ole .223 gonna drop the hammer on em.


Think I'm gonna go get a .17 HMR.


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## John B.

MrFish said:


> Think I'm gonna go get a .17 HMR.


Rimfire... no can do.


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## MrFish

John B. said:


> Rimfire... no can do.


Oh yeah......hold my beer.


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## John B.

MrFish said:


> Oh yeah......hold my beer.


I can't hold your beer, hold my beer and hold light.... sooooo....


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## MrFish

John B. said:


> I can't hold your beer, hold my beer and hold light.... sooooo....


I have a GoLight, but then there is still the remote to hold.


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## Harbison

That gentleman had some kind of mental breakdown 100 miles off shore. He came within 2 feet of me, but never threatened me. He was subdued without incident. No on was hurt. He was taken to the mental ward at Tampa General Hospital. No big deal at all. 

" ole .223 gonna drop the hammer on em."
Lots of luck! You are going to need it.


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