# Glock pistol returned by the Pensacola Police following a self-defense shooting



## scubapro

After 16 years of carrying a concealed firearm for personal protection -- hoping and praying that I would never have to use it -- I had to employ deadly force on the evening of December 21st here in Pensacola.

Today, my Glock firearm was returned to me in the condition it was when it was taken into evidence. The FDLE lab did fire two cartridges for their testing -- but both cartridge cases and even the projectiles fired were in the evidence box that was given to me today at the PPD.

So, the turn-around time was two months and six days from incident to the pistol's return. Certainly not as quick as it could have been -- but definitely not as long as the horror stories I've heard from others (some in other locations) faced with similar situations.

A few things that I want to share from the experience regarding "aftermath management":

1.) The responding Pensacola Police Officers to the scene were very professional and completely pleasant to deal with in a very stressful situation and crime scene.

2.) At no time was I made to feel like a "criminal", handcuffed - nor physically detained in any way.

3.) I made sure to make contact with the first arriving officer that I saw, identifying myself as the "shooter" -- that I had discharged the weapon in self defense -- and that the weapon was secure in its holster on my right side. He did "secure" the firearm (as well as my back-up pistol and OTF MicroTech knife) in the trunk of his cruiser while the scene portion of the investigation occurred.

4.) No less than six police officers asked me questions about the incident, the description of the suspects and their escape vehicle/route -- many asking the same questions multiple times -- at different times. I made sure that my answers were factual -- and the only emotion attached to any of them was that "I was in fear of my life" at the time I drew and discharged the firearm.

5.) There were at least three independant witnesses to the aggravated assault against me who corroborated my statements of the facts that led up to me drawing and discharging my firearm -- as well as additional events occurring immediately afterwards involving a very aggitated and belligerent "witness" who threatened to "beat my ass" following the shooting (who possibly could have been related to the aggressors in some way as far as I was concerned)... But that is another story for another day! 

5.) The firearm that I discharged was retained and placed into evidence for the continuing investigation -- but my back-up pistol and knife was returned to me on the scene.

6.) The on-scene portion of the investigation took no less than 45 minutes and most likely over an hour -- I did not closely watch the time. 

7.) I was called by the Police Department quickly after the arrest of suspects -- and asked to come attempt to identify them from a photo line-up at the Polce Station (in this case, the arrest was made later in the same night after the suspects attempted an armed robbery of a convenience store). I indicated to the officer on the telephone that I would come right down -- and immediately did so, even though it was after midnight. 

8.) I was completely cooperative on the scene, on the telephone, and at the police station. At no time did I ask if I was in jeopardy of any charges (I was confident in my appropriate use of deadly force in the situation -- based largely upon the Florida "stand your ground" law). Never did I say that I wished to speak with an attorney, etc. I did consult a colleague who is an attorney representing police officers in use of force lawsuits days after the fact -- just to be sure my thinking was correct, and he helped put my mind at ease.

In summary, if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having to use *justifiable *deadly force in the City of Pensacola -- I have no reason to believe that you will be treated in any other fashion that I was treated.

I can't say enough how impressed I was with the officers who responded to the scene, worked with me at the police station, or the investigator who contacted me by telephone with details and updates regarding the disposition of my firearm.

The entire "aftermath" ordeal was as stress-free as I would anticipate any such situation could be -- in any jurisdiction. I can't speak for any differences that might occur with any other law enforcement agency in the local area, but the PPD did things right!:thumbsup:


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## ZombieKiller

Glad you were able to defend yourself. Very glad you didn't get tarred and feathered, at minimum, by the fuzz. I'm new to Florida, but I'm aleady digging the "looser" gun restrictions than what I'm used to.


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## MikeH

im sorry for your unfortunate experience but im glad that you did what was nessessary to return home safely.i will think back to this post if i ever start to get lazy, and think that i can go out "just this one time" without being armed. thanks for sharing.


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## Gravity3694

Thankfully you got your Glock back, some people never see their lawfully owned and used arms again.

Out of curiosity and if it's ok with you, what were the events leading up to you having to use deadly force? I perfectly understand if you don't want to post about it.


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## 706Z

Good for you!I can only hope I'm not put in that situation,but,If I am I hope my aim isas good as yours.


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## scubapro

Since the case hasn't gone to trial yet -- they have an opportunity to plead on 4/4 with a trial date of 4/16 if needed -- I probably shouldn't go into great detail on the forum.

The events were widely reported in the local news at the time -- but with the holidays approaching I'm sure most people missed the coverage.

Essentially, I witnessed a forceable felony take place and followed one of the suspects in an attempt to get a better description and see where she was going. Around a blind corner of the building waited another suspect in a vehicle who then attempted to use that vehicle as a deadly weapon against me during their escape.

I fired drew and fired in response to that threat while removing myself successfully from the path of the vehicle.

those two suspects were joined by a thrid later and attempted the armed robbery less than two miles from my scene later that evening. The clerk at the convenience store struggled with one of the armed suspects out of fear for his life -- and successfully disarmed her. All three suspects fled that scene and were spotted later entering a condominium complex a few blocks away from the scene of my incident.

Their vehicle had a bullet hole in it... Speer Gold Dots work very well. 

All three suspects face multiple charges. The two female suspects were identified as committing a home invasion robbery earlier in December as well.

The biggest casualty of the crime spree was the convenience store clerk -- who lost his job as a result of his decision to defend himself and disarm the suspect. The convence store company terminated him for violating company policy by struggling with the suspects... I guess they would have preferred that he be murdered in their store.


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## no_control

I remember this story.. sucks for the employee who got fired that did what he had to do to survive. 

http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/local_news/pensacola/cashier-struggled-with-robber-over-gun


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## tjwareusmc

Thanks for posting! It is great to hear that the officers were professional and that you were treated with respect. I am always more afraid of the aftermath and police response to that situation than I am afraid of my ability to defend myself.


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## PompNewbie

Thanks for posting Scuba.. Its good to hear you were treated right for using your rights, and not as a criminal


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## tonyd

sir imho you were lucky! dont get me wrong glad the bad guys got caught(to bad 2 of them will be out in 3 to 5) but you inserted your self in a situation when only property was at stake


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## Gravity3694

tonyd said:


> sir imho you were lucky! dont get me wrong glad the bad guys got caught(to bad 2 of them will be out in 3 to 5) but you inserted your self in a situation when only property was at stake


Yes, that's very commendable. You were not obliged in any way to go around the corner to eyeball the offenders to aid in their capture.


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## scubapro

I would certainly want someone to do it for me. The young lady was very appreciative when her personal property was recovered upon the arrest of the suspects.

I suppose many people like Tonyd would be content to sit there and watch someone commit a felony and simply decide "not to get involved" since it was someone else's property -- but then, I'm a sheepdog by nature...it is in my genes.

My intent was not to engage in a confrontation -- but simply get a good description and direction/mode of travel of the suspect. They decided to up the ante with the aggravated assault -- and then felt so "empowered" by their escape to commit an armed robbery attempt a short time and distance away.

I am so very thankful that the convenicne store clerk was not harmed in the follow-up crime. I would have forever second-guessed myself for not connecting my shot to driver through the windshield. For if I had -- the armed robbery attempt would never have occurred.

I would have been justified in such a shot -- but rest assured, my life would have been forever changed. For the lack of that outcome i am very thankful -- as I expect are the suspects. Faced with a similar situation, I would act appropriately with deadly force again if necessary. My mindset has not changed...again, i am a sheepdog by nature -- I can't help it.


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## Gravity3694

It's good to know that there is someone in the area who takes to heart what this article means.

http://www.vamortgagecenter.com/blog/2008/02/08/sheep-wolves-sheepdogs/


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## Jason

Thanks fer posting the positive experience w/ PPD LEO's. I'm actually surprised you got your firearm back before EVERYTHING is over. Still trying to get my pops Glock back from a burglary that occurred about 5 months ago (ECSO worked it, and did a fantastic job w/ what they had to work with!). Lil' dirtbag just got sentenced so now the State Attorney will release the firearm back to him.....


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## glassplus

*glock back*

I to want to thank you for posting your positive experience W/PPD, they get enough neg. I have attended a lot of training class's with a lot of the PPD training personal. and found them to be up front about trying to help celv. out and all around good guys. I hope you don't mine, if I pass this alone to GEG and some of the others. Glad to know there is some one else, is willing to get involved. It took me over a year to get my stepson AR back from FDLE, They had miss placed it. My two cents. jj

Ps. I know you remembered to keep you heart rate down.


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## Tail Chaser

Would like say I am pretty dang sure I would do the same thing.
So I do commend you for your actions.
I am also very glad to see everything has worked out for you as well.
It is really good to know there are people who are not so willing to roll on their backs and piss all over their bellies when situations do arise.
Thanx for making a difference.


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## Seanpcola

^^^^^This^^^^^^:thumbup:


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## First Cast

Scuba, thanks for taking the time to put your experience and thoughts out. Probably one of my most common thoughts as a CCW holder is what situation is going to force me to pull my gun. I know there are a thousand scenarios, but hearing yours is reassuring. I do think lawful people are going to have to take a stand and protect their property and loved ones. Glad you were in the right place at the right time, and it's great to hear the good guys won one. More often than not it works the other way.


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## johnsonbeachbum

What you did is great.
I do however not like the fact that you are percieved as guilty until they prove you to be clear of wrong doing in this situation.


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## bama99

johnsonbeachbum said:


> What you did is great.
> I do however not like the fact that you are percieved as guilty until they prove you to be clear of wrong doing in this situation.



I didn't get that impression at all. He told us the authorities treated him with respect. He was never handcuffed or detained. 

What more should they do? Give him high fives and all shoot their guns up in the air jihad style celebrating his triumph over the criminals. 

Anytime a civilian pulls a gun in self-defense there has to be an investigation of some sort. Every fight or attack the cops respond to both parties are claiming self-defense. They hear it all the time and have no way of knowing who's telling the truth till they talk to witnesses and sort it all out. These guys put themselves in harms way everyday for peanuts, so I tend to try and cut them some slack.


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## MrFish

Every shooting involving an LEO is investigated, so why not a civilian?


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## K-Bill

good on ya, sir! thanks for sharing this - i remember the story when it came out.


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## Pinksnappertrapper

Jason said:


> Thanks fer posting the positive experience w/ PPD LEO's. I'm actually surprised you got your firearm back before EVERYTHING is over. Still trying to get my pops Glock back from a burglary that occurred about 5 months ago (ECSO worked it, and did a fantastic job w/ what they had to work with!). Lil' dirtbag just got sentenced so now the State Attorney will release the firearm back to him.....


 
And it didnt go to the FDLE here, it went to tallahassee and he got it back in that short period of time. Guess cause no one was hit or killed.


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## scubapro

If there was any question of wrong-doing on my part by the police - I believe that I would have been arrested & booked so that the State Attorney could sort it out. They definitely would not have returned my other weapons to me on the scene if there was any question at all surrounding the circumstances of the shooting.

With multiple witnesses backing up my statements on the scene - there was never any question regarding my use of deadly force. 

As far as we were aware on the scene, one of the suspects could have been hit by the bullet - to later show up at an ER. They needed to retain the firearm used for possible ballistic testing. Once a firearm is taken into evidence - by policy it will be going to the FDLE lab in Tallahassee for testing & examination.

By the term investigation in my post - I was referring to the investigation of the crimes, not an investigation of the self defense shooting.


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## duckhunter

Great post thanks for sharing!


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## Gravity3694

johnsonbeachbum said:


> What you did is great.
> I do however not like the fact that you are percieved as guilty until they prove you to be clear of wrong doing in this situation.


Standard routine in all crime scene investigations. Not every situation is the way it appears to be on the surface.


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## bobinbusan

Never did see the caliber of your Glock?


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## PompNewbie

Knowing Scuba.. probably 10mm


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## ccather

Would you tell us (or PM me) the attorney who you contacted. I hope never to need such a lawyer, but I would like to be able to call upon an attorney who has specific experience in self defense shooting. The correct advice can save emotional stress and money. Thanks for your consideration of my request.


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## realstreet

Glad to hear you got you glock 29 back. I know that's your favorite :thumbsup:


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## bama99

Okay.....This won't be popular but I feel obligated to give another opinion just to give people some food for thought.

Please any of you "sheepdogs" or otherwise, don't put yourself in harms way over my car being broken into. It's just stuff and I have insurance and it damn sure ain't worth nobody losing a life over. I realize these people had bad intentions as the later robbery proved, but that only proves the point further in my eyes. What if Scuba had gone around the corner straight into that shotgun they used later in the evening. If you can safely get a tag number that's great, but all the thumbs up and atta boys on the thread are troublesome. 

IMO, Scuba was very lucky to come out of the incident both healthy and not facing legal consequences. Some other states or other jurisdictions in Florida may have looked at this thing totally different. I wasn't there and obviously don't have all the details, but from what's available it does not seem crystal clear that firing a round into the car was they only way to avoid certain death. I'm telling you all, that some police or prosecutes with different motives could put you in the position of having to answer some very uncomfortable questions on a situation like that. Scuba stated that he received his backup gun and otf micro knife back on scene. Some prosecutors would use the possession of those items against you. Questions like why did you feel the need for a 10mm hand cannon, back-up weapon and fighting knife. Those are $300 dollar specialty switchblade like knifes marketed and sold with one purpose in mind and it ain't whittling woodchucks from a blank of wood. 

My intent is not to beat up on Scuba. I'm happy he came out of the incident unscathed. I just see all the good for ya and atta boy comments leading to folks feeling empowered to mount up with weapons and jump into situations that could have LIFE ALTERING consequences. This thing could have went wrong in so many ways for him.....Thank God it didn't. All for what...... a cell phone, gps, some cash. I'm just saying when you put yourself in harms way like that, there are four possible outcomes. 1. Death 2. Serious Injury 3. Incarceration 4. Healthy and Free. 3 possible bad outcomes 1 good outcome. How do think your wife, family, or kids would feel if the result was one of the first 3 over some "stuff" in a car.


I'm aware of the Castle doctrine and all for it. I think most places you will be asked did you take all possible steps to remove yourself from the situation that put you in the position of having to respond with deadly force. If someone is being assaulted, then yes, I couldn't stand by and watch that, but for property crime, I will call 911 and let the cops do their job.

For the life of me, I can't believe this thread was posted. No way no how would I be putting this out on a public message board. Scuba....I would request the whole damn thread be deleted if I were you. 

I wasn't going to comment, but felt a little different perspective might be in order instead of the hero worship atta boys. Please People.....THINK LONG AND HARD BEFORE YOU INTERJECT YOURSELF INTO A SITUATION LIKE THIS. It turned out okay for Scuba, but could have gone wrong on so many levels. This ain't child's play. It's serious and grave matter. Don't let your ego and need to prove your manhood put you into a bad situation.

So go ahead and feel free to roast me. Tell me that's wha is wrong with the world are people like me who won't get involved etc.......Like I said folks.....Life & Death consequences we are talking about here. If your life or someone's else's isn't in immediate grave danger, why put yourself into a situation like that? If you feel an overwhelming need to do it then you should seriously look at a profession in law enforcement.


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## scubapro

I think this thread has ventured off on a tangent that I didn't intend in my initial post. My desire was to discuss "aftermath management" in the event you ever found yourself in a situation of using deadly force in defense of yourself or others.

Against my better judgement, I responded to a question regarding the circumstances of my particular case. Given that it was widely reported in the media, and that the details are essentially public record - I responded with general details.

There are other details of the situation that were not discussed in detail - and it is understandable that some would see a need to "armchair quarterback" based solely upon what has been offered in the thread.

Would I act differently if faced with an identical situation in the future? Possibly - but probably not. My actions at the time - and the reasons for doing so - were deemed "reasonable" by the police and the State Attorney, so we'll leave it at that.

As far as what I carry on a daily basis as self defense items - it doesn't change for me from day to day. When I am dressed, I have a primary firearm with extra mag, a back-up firearm, a knife, and a flashlight... What others may choose to carry or not carry is a personal choice.

Seeking a career in law enforcement is certainly an admirable suggestion. However, no one should feel they are limited in personal self defense - or acting in response to criminal activity witnessed - because they are not "on duty" or in uniform.

Again, my purpose in the initial post was to provide some insight in "aftermath management" based upon my local experience here in Pensacola...


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## scubapro

bobinbusan said:


> Never did see the caliber of your Glock?


That night - GLOCK 39 in 45 GAP...


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## bama99

I did not intend to armchair quarterback you actions. As you stated none of us have the full details. Would love to hear them sometime, but this surely isn't the place for that.

My intent was to play devil's advocate on the - way to go and more people should get involved like that crowd. There seems to be a little bit of a glorification of the action down to what type of caliber was used going on. 

Someone may go off feeling empowered by your outcome and interject themselves into a similar situation thinking: Scuba from the PFF was given his gun back and a pat on the back by the police, so I'm good to go here.

The line between using deadly force in self-defense and committing a crime can be razor thin at times and the publicly known "facts" don't seem as cut and dry as home invasion or a mugging type situation. I imagine the "rest of story" might clear that up.

Change one little tiny fact and throw in a different DA somewhere else and a seemingly similar circumstance may have a CCW permit holder going to jail. Or worse charged with Murder if a shot connected. 

Bottom line.....And this isn't directed at you Scuba...... If one has obtained their permit and carry a gun they should study up and read as much as they can on justified use of deadly force. I recommend - 



 by Massad Ayoob.

It may save someone a lot of trouble down the road. It's best to avoid the need for an Aftermath Management Strategy by not putting oneself into a position to have to use a firearm in the first place. Ayoob's book put's a large emphasis on that, so it may fall on deaf ears to the commando get involved crowd, but I think it would be great if it came in the mail with every permit issued. 

Sorry if I hijacked your thread Scuba. I just didn't want it to be lost on everyone how serious it is when they draw a gun in self-defense. You had the optimal outcome. Some others may not be so lucky, so best to avoid having to draw that gun if at all possible.


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## scubapro

ccather said:


> Would you tell us (or PM me) the attorney who you contacted. I hope never to need such a lawyer, but I would like to be able to call upon an attorney who has specific experience in self defense shooting. The correct advice can save emotional stress and money. Thanks for your consideration of my request.


My colleague represents law enforcement officers and agencies - and I train and consult the same officers and agencies in use of force, vehicle operation, and civil rights (law enforcement liability) issues throughout the US. Not sure if he would be interested in an unsolicited case from the public.

I used to write the following name and number on the back of my CWL for reference if needed -- it probably is a good place to start:

Jon H. Gutmacher
407-650-0770

I believe Mr. Gutmacher would take a case from the public -- and I expect he has relationships with other attorneys throughout the state. His book is excellent and I recommend it as a "must read" for anyone carrying a concealed weapon in Florida.


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## johnsonbeachbum

bama99 said:


> I didn't get that impression at all. He told us the authorities treated him with respect. He was never handcuffed or detained.
> 
> What more should they do? Give him high fives and all shoot their guns up in the air jihad style celebrating his triumph over the criminals.
> 
> Anytime a civilian pulls a gun in self-defense there has to be an investigation of some sort. Every fight or attack the cops respond to both parties are claiming self-defense. They hear it all the time and have no way of knowing who's telling the truth till they talk to witnesses and sort it all out. These guys put themselves in harms way everyday for peanuts, so I tend to try and cut them some slack.


My contention was about the retention of his firearm for two months.
The perps were arrested later the same night without gun shot wounds.
At that point the gun should have been returned immediately.
I can go with a lengthy time in Tally for ballistic testing, etc. if someone had been shot.

But I suppose Tally refuses to do so in order to claim they need more money to hire more crime lab techs in order to cut the backlog down.


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## RichardFL

*Chiming in*

My glock 40 model 27 was stolen out of my wife's(xwife now) SUV about 4 years ago and used in a crime in pcola were it was used against an officer and he was from what I understand shot six time's. It took about 2 years from date of crime but i got it back and not in the condition they recieved it in, they had inscribed in the metal a code which i guess was the case number or evidence bar code maybe. I am not happy and feel like the criminal should buy me a new one as mine was 3 months old and newish. His first hundred licence plates he makes, the money should go to me a new gun! Or since the PFPD took a drimal to it they could pitch in? And yes the SUV was locked and yes she had been told to never leave it in the vehicle over night but she is just a women?

Plus the gun was in rough shape but I dont know what shape PFPD got it in because had been missing for a while before crime. And now its useless because i would never trust it now. Thought about trying to find out who the officer was and donate it to him because from what i am told he lived?And no I didnt hear anything at the time on the new about officer shot but I was in AL living at time.


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## baldona523

I'm glad to hear the good reviews of a local PD. 

I'm glad to hear everything turned out for Scuba.

I have to dis agree though, as a citizen and firm believer in CCW I am not thrilled to hear about a CCW being used in this manner. CCW is not meant for "sheepdogs" and whatever that term meant. I agree if you want to be a "sheepdog" be a cop. CCW is meant to allow the citizen to protect themselves in a situation of imminent bodily harm, not to chase down thugs.

I know Scuba left out details. I know it was justified, but the story could easily look like this: A well armed Scuba chased someone with his gun around a corner, the person got in a car and then tried to run Scuba over in self defense. Scuba could have been seen as the attacker in this instance. Especially considering Scuba was armed with multiple weapons. It is your right and I have no issues with that, but it also makes you look like you are out looking for trouble. 

Everything I have read and been told to do after a weapon has been fired is very similar to what the police are told to do after they fire a weapon:

1.) Secure your weapon/s.
2.) Call the police: tell them you were involved in a self defense shooting and where, and that is it.
3.) Call your lawyer. Give the police your weapon and tell them you were involved in a self defense shooting, show them where the assailants are/were. THAT IS IT. Don't say another word until your lawyer arrives.

I believe in our judicial system, but if you are ever involved in a shooting you should always call a lawyer to let them speak for you. It does not matter how innocent you are. Any shooting is a high stress situation and you should not speak for yourself.

I am by no means a professional in this department, but everything I have ever been taught has been along these lines.


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## OLD D DOG

*shot police officer*

He IS In a wheel chair .He works at santarosa sheriff office ,or did? I can,t thank of his name. Tommy


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## scubapro

baldona523 said:


> I'm glad to hear the good reviews of a local PD.
> 
> I'm glad to hear everything turned out for Scuba.
> 
> I have to dis agree though, as a citizen and firm believer in CCW I am not thrilled to hear about a CCW being used in this manner. CCW is not meant for "sheepdogs" and whatever that term meant. I agree if you want to be a "sheepdog" be a cop. CCW is meant to allow the citizen to protect themselves in a situation of imminent bodily harm, not to chase down thugs.
> 
> I know Scuba left out details. I know it was justified, but the story could easily look like this: A well armed Scuba chased someone with his gun around a corner, the person got in a car and then tried to run Scuba over in self defense. Scuba could have been seen as the attacker in this instance. Especially considering Scuba was armed with multiple weapons. It is your right and I have no issues with that, but it also makes you look like you are out looking for trouble.
> 
> Everything I have read and been told to do after a weapon has been fired is very similar to what the police are told to do after they fire a weapon:
> 
> 1.) Secure your weapon/s.
> 2.) Call the police: tell them you were involved in a self defense shooting and where, and that is it.
> 3.) Call your lawyer. Give the police your weapon and tell them you were involved in a self defense shooting, show them where the assailants are/were. THAT IS IT. Don't say another word until your lawyer arrives.
> 
> I believe in our judicial system, but if you are ever involved in a shooting you should always call a lawyer to let them speak for you. It does not matter how innocent you are. Any shooting is a high stress situation and you should not speak for yourself.
> 
> I am by no means a professional in this department, but everything I have ever been taught has been along these lines.


Thanks for your input but there are couple of problems with your perspective/opinion...

First, I did not respond in an attempt to "chase down thugs"...

As an upstanding citizen, my attempt was to obtain a description and direction of travel of the suspect who committed a crime in my presence - in order to give useful information to the responding police.

No weapons were drawn or displayed until the suspects made the conscious choice to commit aggravated assault in an attempt to run me down with a vehicle during their escape. At that point, I used my concealed firearm carried under license in self defense of my person -- as you suggest, in a situation of imminent personal danger.

Having multiple weapons or tools for use in self defense is no different than driving your car with a spare tire. A firearm is a machine. Machines can fail -- sometimes at the times they are needed the most. Failure to have a backup can be fatal... It's all about risk and risk management. If a law enforcement officer works without a back-up weapon, I would say that he/she is foolish. If a citizen chooses to carry a CCW with no back-up, it is a calculated risk that you are willing to endure. Based upon my profession, training and experience -- that is a calculated risk that I am not willing to take. To each his own...

Don't attempt to make this situation or my comments into more than what actually occurred or was meant.

I believe that *everyone* who chooses to exercise their 2nd amendment rights by carrying a firearm for self defense is a "sheepdog" -- whether you identify yourself in that way or not. A conscious choice has been made to be proactive for one's defense of themselves, and their loved ones through the use of a firearm. Hopefully, they have also developed the proper mindest in the use of deadly force, obtained appropriate training, and practice good situational awareness.

If you are one who just "totes a gun" with no training, mindset, or situational awareness -- you are more of a liability to yourself and others than you are an effective self defense-minded citizen.

"I carry a gun -- because I can't carry a Cop" fits most of us who choose to carry a concealed weapon. As far as your "become a Cop" comment goes....if you choose to witness crimes blatantly taking place in your presence (the suspects could see me -- and knew that I could see them)and are willing to turn a blind eye or practice deliberate indifference by convincing yourself that is "isn't your job" -- or that "you don't want to get involved", or worse - "it's not my stuff or people, so it isn't my problem"...you have to answer to that for yourself -- and realize that likeminded individuals are the "sheep" who are willing to let the "wolves" do their deeds unchallenged and with impunity.

Police Officers are rarely if ever present when the criminals strike (wolves as well as human predators are many times very smart). Police respond *after the crime has occurred* to take a report, collect evidence, and sometimes clean up the mess.

Finally, if you choose to request an attorney to speak for you after you have been involved in a justifiable use fo deadly force -- you can certainly do that. Before Florida's "Stand Your Ground Law", I probably would have followed a similar plan. However, in my situation -- and in my professional evaluation of all aspects of the incident -- knowing the pprotections of Florida's laws, I chose not to take that route - and was completely open and cooperative with the responding police officers without legal representation. It was the proper choice in my particular situation. All situations are very different.

Be safe out there! :thumbsup:


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## OLD D DOG

*police rairly on scene until after the crime*

Not my son scuba ,he is well know for his high proactive policing .I had the great pleasure to be his ridealong.I was so Impressed by his gift of crime fighting . Somuch changed from my day . ps he was the one who took that trash off the street you dealt with . proud dad Tommy


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## bobinbusan

Originally Posted by *bobinbusan* 
_Never did see the caliber of your Glock?_
Thanks scubapro on letting us know your caliber you used that night - GLOCK 39 in 45 GAP... 
Could of been a different STORY if you used a REAL 45ACP :whistling: :whistling:


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## scubapro

OLD D DOG said:


> Not my son scuba ,he is well know for his high proactive policing .I had the great pleasure to be his ridealong.I was so Impressed by his gift of crime fighting . Somuch changed from my day . ps he was the one who took that trash off the street you dealt with . proud dad Tommy


You are right to be proud of your son! I think he conducted the photo lineup with me that night at PPD headquarters. If so, I was extremely impressed with his level of professionalism and attention to detail.

I'm glad he spied their vehicle that night - lest the trio do something more brazen in the neighborhood resulting in injury or death to a victim. When my phone rang that night, I was amazed at how quickly the PPD had suspects in custody - not knowing at the time they had attempted the armed robbery only a short time & distance away from my encounter.

Your son succeeded in taking some very bad folks off the streets that night!


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## scubapro

bobinbusan said:


> Originally Posted by bobinbusan
> Never did see the caliber of your Glock?
> Thanks scubapro on letting us know your caliber you used that night - GLOCK 39 in 45 GAP...
> Could of been a different STORY if you used a REAL 45ACP :whistling: :whistling:


Of course, if I had been carrying the 10mm G29SF that night - the car would have been disabled on the spot!


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## rob883

I am thankful that all did turn out well and the sharing that has taken place.I am grateful for all that have input on this thread.You know if Scuba had gotten killed or a stray hit an innocent bystander well he would everybodys whipping boy.The other is he had gotten killed by his weapon or someone elses that he went after well then become the laughing stock. No doubt God played a far greater part in this anybody has said.If you have never witnessed any serious crime taking place you have no idea what you will.When it comes to guns being used i assure you it will change your life !! Anothing thing that you will find it it never happens like you think it will.The thing that takes only seconds will seem like minutes when you recall and some ascuteness will occur with some details.All in all if you ever see the elephant and live to tell about it or post about it on the net make sure you thank whatever power that is greater then yourself for getting you through that situation !!!! There are 2 people those that sit back and watch and those that choose to make a difference the choice is yours !!!


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## Az-Vic

I beg to differ Rob, god or whoever is the supreme being de jour, must have been out at the honky tonk chasin' fat girls the night I had my only serious altercation. That night it was just me, standing menacingly in nothing but my skivvies and holding a S&W 640(2 1/2" barrel 357) and the tatooed,high as a kite bad guy, standing 20 feet apart. I can promise you, nobody but me, myself and I solved that little shin-dig, for if god had been around, certainly he would have had me in pants


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## Gravity3694

bobinbusan said:


> Originally Posted by *bobinbusan*
> _Never did see the caliber of your Glock?_
> Thanks scubapro on letting us know your caliber you used that night - GLOCK 39 in 45 GAP...
> Could of been a different STORY if you used a REAL 45ACP :whistling: :whistling:


.45 GAP is a more pressure efficient cartridge than .45ACP. In other words it has the same ballistics as .45ACP in a smaller package.


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## rob883

well now Az Vic i stand corrected sir timing is everything !!! Glad you are able to post about it too !!


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## rob883

Scuba i told Jesus thank you for having men like you in the world.I appreciate someone that does not stand and watch.


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## baldona523

Scuba,

Again I am truly glad it turned out well. Even if you had shot and killed the driver of the vehicle you could of easily gotten run over. I want people to use a CCW to prevent others from physical harm. If you did this I commend you. 

I will ALWAYS believe that even with a CCW one should never act out in a way they would without it, except when preventing direct harm. 

Carrying a ccw is like fighting while drunk. Drunks (including myself) have fought over the dumbest things just because their inhibitions were lowered from drinking. Guys try to fight way bigger guys all the time while drunk, whom they would never even talk to if they were sober. Just because your inhibitions are lowered by carrying a CCW does not mean you should be putting yourself in more dangerous situations. A CCW is to prevent the inevitable, not to allow yourself to enter more dangerous situations.

I understand you shoot a lot and are well trained. I am glad for that as you make a better citizen. But, the average guy and most guys with a CCW are not well trained enough. That includes myself, I try to shoot and practice a lot but I still am not comfortable enough to want to use my weapon. 

I am glad that everything worked out. I still think you should always call a lawyer after a shooting, no matter the situation. Even a lawyer should call a lawyer, its a high stress situation and you should have someone talk for you. Most of the time it is not to make sure you say the right thing, it is to prevent you from saying something you don't mean to.

Again, I commend you for being a great fellow citizen and American. I believe wholeheartedly in CCW. I just worry with all these movies now a days there are people besides you and me who will look to put themselves in dangerous situations for unwarranted reasons, and then they endanger themselves and everyone else around them.


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## chaddd

To bad you didnt get all of them!


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## Seanpcola

baldona523 said:


> Again, I commend you for being a great fellow citizen and American. I believe wholeheartedly in CCW. I just worry with all these movies now a days there are people besides you and me who will look to put themselves in dangerous situations for unwarranted reasons, and then they endanger themselves and everyone else around them.



Not really sure that is as big a problem as you might think. I've yet to meet someone with a CCW tht walks with the Mall Ninja attitude. Not saying there aren't any out there. 

I know when I got mine it made me much more aware of my surroundings and think about where I go and when. One of my best friends got his and made the statement to me "Since I started carrying I've gotten much more polite". I really think a lot of the cop wanna-bes and Ninja types either don't worry about having the permit or have done something in their life that will deny them from getting one. 

You are right to point out again that we all need to be extra vigilant to avoid bad scenarios.


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## bfisher1970

I think you got lucky! I would think a hole in the rear end of the car would mean that the threat had passed and it was no longer self defense.


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## scubapro

Update: Yesterday was the docket day for Austin and Fontenot. They pled no contest (adjudicated guilty) to all charges including Burglary (multiple), Aggravated Assault, Armed Robbery, Larceny (multiple), and Home Invasion Robbery. They will be sentenced on 10/17.

Sealey (who was not involved in my encounter) pled no contest (adjudicated guilty) to Armed Robbery and Possession of Marijuana. The Home Invasion Robbery charge against her was dropped by the prosecution - probably in a plea deal to provide information against the other defendants. She was sentenced to time served for the drug charge and 10 years minumum mandatory in State Prison for the Armed Robbery.

I expect that Austin and Fontenot will get much more than 10 years -- but I will provide another update after they are sentenced. Three bad folks will be off the streets for some time... The Pensacola Police Department and the State Attorney did an excellent job on this case.


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## bass186

Good deal! It is nice to see the bad guys get what's coming to them. :thumbup:


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