# FL wildlife just across 9 mi



## H2OBUG

Got popped by Fl wildlife just barely across the 9 mi line
They did not give me a ticket but the did document to turn into NOAA

Any idea what the fine might be?

Was not over the limit or undersized?


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## Splittine

If you didn't get a ticket then what are you wanting to know what the fine is for? It's perfectly legal to fish over the line as long as you do not possess and out of season fish.


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## H2OBUG

He basically said I was in possession of Red Snapper in federal waters. That is currently illegall since the federal season is closed

They took photos of the fish my drivers license and my boat registration.

Also too a photo of my GPS and GPS track.

Said the would send it to NOAA


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## Telum Pisces

If these gulf states want to stop the Federal closures, they need to first stop being their boat rides to give people tickets etc... I know they have the ability, but should they talk out of one side of their mouth and yet still provide the LE function in Federal waters. Let the Feds do that part. 

What part of a ticket in Federal waters does FWC receive I wonder???? How much money is given to the state for a Federal violation????


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## Splittine

H2OBUG said:


> He basically said I was in possession of Red Snapper in federal waters. That is currently illegall since the federal season is closed
> 
> They took photos of the fish my drivers license and my boat registration.
> 
> Also too a photo of my GPS and GPS track.
> 
> Said the would send it to NOAA


Yeah you screwed up. Amazing he didn't bust your ass.


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## H2OBUG

Telum Pisces said:


> If these gulf states want to stop the Federal closures, they need to first stop being their boat rides to give people tickets etc... I know they have the ability, but should they talk out of one side of their mouth and yet still provide the LE function in Federal waters. Let the Feds do that part.
> 
> What part of a ticket in Federal waters does FWC receive I wonder???? How much money is given to the state for a Federal violation????


Same thing I was thinking.

The FL guy were nice but all business.

Did not check our license, safety equipment or and other stuff.

We could have had 6 Cubans and 4 bales of pot and they would have taken photos of the snapper.


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## jgraham154

I would have told them to get bent if they tried to take pics of my machine and track info..


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## MrFish

Telum Pisces said:


> If these gulf states want to stop the Federal closures, they need to first stop being their boat rides to give people tickets etc... I know they have the ability, but should they talk out of one side of their mouth and yet still provide the LE function in Federal waters. Let the Feds do that part.
> 
> What part of a ticket in Federal waters does FWC receive I wonder???? How much money is given to the state for a Federal violation????


A lot of us spend time writing to senators and representatives, but have any of us asked our local guys to try and stop supporting enforcement efforts? Maybe if we hammer them at the state level, we can take away their enforcement. They have nothing without the state guys.


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## k-p

They turn it over to the Feds then it's on them to prosecute. Used to be the same thing with undersize marlin and probably still is. Big difference in state and fed law. If it's not in the FL regs, then FWC for the most part don't really care.


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## Splittine

jgraham154 said:


> I would have told them to get bent if they tried to take pics of my machine and track info..


Good way of turning a warning into landing in handcuffs.


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## MrFish

Splittine said:


> Good way of turning a warning into landing in handcuffs.


Sovereign Citizens don't recognize handcuffs!! Put that in your pipe!


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## my3nme

Splittine said:


> jgraham154 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have told them to get bent if they tried to take pics of my machine and track info..
> 
> 
> 
> Good way of turning a warning into landing in handcuffs.
Click to expand...

Have to agree.


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## MaxxT

I guess my question is why were you over the line illegally fishing, or did I miss something?? I am sure you will get a court date or fine from the Feds.


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## marlinchaser

MaxxT said:


> I guess my question is why were you over the line illegally fishing, or did I miss something?? I am sure you will get a court date or fine from the Feds.


Yep! About $150/fish if first offense.


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## jspooney

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as I understand it, the fine is $250-$500 per fish, depending on how many are in the boat.


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## Mr Skinny

Why were you across the line? It is not that hard to pull out the chart the night before and make sure the spots you will be fishing are in state waters. :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:


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## Mr Skinny

MrFish said:


> Sovereign Citizens don't recognize handcuffs!! Put that in your pipe!


a big LOL. Lets see how that works out for ya.


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## jgraham154

Splittine said:


> Good way of turning a warning into landing in handcuffs.


Do you really feel like they will arrest you for accidentally fishing over the line?
Last time I checked, law enforcement need a warrant to enter your personal electronic devices, without your permission.


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## Splittine

jgraham154 said:


> Do you really feel like they will arrest you for accidentally fishing over the line?
> Last time I checked, law enforcement need a warrant to enter your personal electronic devices, without your permission.


No but they can for obstruction of justice. There are different rules while on the water opposed to land about what can be accessed. Don't be a dick and you won't go to jail over something stupid. It's not that hard to determine if you're in state or federal waters, a quick 2 second glance at your GPS can tell you that.


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## FenderBender

When they boarded us Saturday, they asked for our permission to look in our coolers. Of course we didn't mind.


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## jgraham154

Splittine said:


> No but they can for obstruction of justice. There are different rules while on the water opposed to land about what can be accessed. Don't be a dick and you won't go to jail over something stupid. It's not that hard to determine if you're in state or federal waters, a quick 2 second glance at your GPS can tell you that.


Why would they need to look at my gps if they are beside me in their boat and have their own electronics ? It's not about being a dick, it's about right or wrong..

Is there case law saying they can search your electronics just because I'm on the open ocean, as opposed to being on land?


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## kingfish501

jgraham154 said:


> Why would they need to look at my gps if they are beside me in their boat and have their own electronics ? It's not about being a dick, it's about right or wrong..
> 
> Is there case law saying they can search your electronics just because I'm on the open ocean, as opposed to being on land?


Because checking YOUR GPS tells them if it was an accidentak incursion into federal waters because your GPS was off or a deliberate incursion into federal waters.


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## kingfish501

Check the FWC site. It says FWC enforces regulations in state AND federal waters.


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## Walton County

Telum Pisces said:


> If these gulf states want to stop the Federal closures, they need to first stop being their boat rides to give people tickets etc... I know they have the ability, but should they talk out of one side of their mouth and yet still provide the LE function in Federal waters.  Let the Feds do that part.
> 
> What part of a ticket in Federal waters does FWC receive I wonder???? How much money is given to the state for a Federal violation????


I certainly do not disagree with the spirit of what you are saying but I do believe we(State of FL) accept a lot of federal money with regards to our coastline.


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## Inn Deep

There is no set fine per fish. You go see the judge and he determines what fine you pay.
Hope he / she is in a good mood the day you show up.


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## jspooney

Inn Deep said:


> There is no set fine per fish. You go see the judge and he determines what fine you pay.
> Hope he / she is in a good mood the day you show up.


According to NOAA, there is definitely a set fine.
http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/gces/SE SS & Fix-It -- Oct 2014.pdf


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## H2OBUG

jspooney said:


> According to NOAA, there is definitely a set fine.
> http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/gces/SE SS & Fix-It -- Oct 2014.pdf


 
thanks for that info


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## dustyflair

Our state fwc should not be enforcing federal laws....we dont paythem to do that....


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## Splittine

dustyflair said:


> Our state fwc should not be enforcing federal laws....we dont paythem to do that....


The Federal grants do so technically we do.


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## Realtor

dang, I know I'm following the rules, those fines are STIFF!

I dont know much, but I do know not to be a crank with the law.... some of you should be lawyers....


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## peter215

Seems to be a lot of mis-information here...
But from my experience: (I work on a federally licensed inspected vessel)
NOAA is way worse than FWC. Court dates, they rarely show, and you have to pay tons of court fees, so good luck man, but honestly, if everyone has the same rules to follow, there are no exceptions.

But, FWC enforce state regulations (which are state waters of course, and federal waters if a species is not directly regulated by NOAA).
Red snapper is federally protected and regulated, strictly, so NOAA handles it. Just like catching a federally regulated shark, marlin, etc. FWC turns it over to NOAA.

And yes, they can search your GPS, especially if you broke the law and had snapped in federal waters. By doing so, they are also checking to prove you were fishing federal waters, if you had knowledge, etc. 

For the checking of coolers, of course they ask to look in them, it's called being polite. Sort of like when you get pulled over for speeding, and an officer 'asks' to see your license. 
They can check your coolers, and don't need permission or a warrant to do so. Don't believe me?

http://forums.floridasportsman.com/archive/index.php/t-8184.html




Oh and I almost forgot: be careful about posts on Facebook and on the internet!!!! They can and will use posts/pictures against you! Even pictures of a filet with a potatoe grade camera, then argue that it looks like an out of season filet


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## hjorgan

Yeah. Be polite, say "Yes sir or mam", and allow the search.
Unless... you are keeping fish illegally which, of course, is a dick move.

Tempting but a dick move.

If you don't know how far offshore you are, learn to use your gear. I usually set my 2nd GPS to the pass as a goto. So I know within a mile if I'm past the 9 mile limit. (There is geometry at work here and I suck at that, so I keep it a under 9 miles from my pass for safety's sake).

And if you feel you are being treated unfairly start your camera rolling and take it to court. After many stops, I have earned the 2 tickets I've received in nearly 40 years of boating. One for my daughter's life jacket not on her (that was on me) and one for having no throwable (kids left it on the beach still on me).


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## JD7.62

Most GPS units in the last 5+ years have the natural resources (9nm) line on the basic chart!


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## markw4321

Couple of things. In the fishery meetings I have attended I have heard certain charter and commercial fisherman complaining loudly about recreational fisherman violating fishery regulations and demanding that something be done about it. Suspect that the increase in enforcement is related. The below article pertains. 

 Unfortunately according to this article the fines have been "doubled" for this season.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/slider_stories/2017/26april17_red_snapper_fines_increase.html



*NOAA Enforcement, State Partners Focus on Red Snapper Enforcement Operations*

In order to better protect the red snapper fish stocks in the Southeast, NOAA’s Office of Law Enforcement, alongside other state and federal natural resource enforcement agencies, will continue to conduct increased enforcement efforts focused on the commercial and recreational red snapper fisheries in Gulf of Mexico and South Atlantic.
“We’ve been working closely with our state partners to patrol the Gulf waters and ensure compliance with the state and federal fishing regulations with the goal of better protecting red snapper stocks,” said Manny Antonaras, deputy special agent in charge of NOAA Enforcement’s Southeast Division. “We make every effort to educate the public on the rules and regulations governing the various red snapper seasons; it’s a hot topic and a high priority for us.”








In 2016, NOAA Enforcement and state Joint Enforcement Agreement (JEA) partners, including Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission and Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, conducted hundreds of patrols and red snapper focused operations in federal waters in the Gulf and South Atlantic. Day-to-day patrols are essential for enforcement efforts and visibility. But, targeted patrols — such as last year’s snapper operations — help increase compliance among anglers by making them aware of the regulations and deter illegal activity.
“Focused enforcement operations are invaluable,” said Lt. Pat O’Shaughnessy, supervisory enforcement officer of NOAA Enforcement. Adding that data collected from these operations become measurable results for year-to-year comparisons, which helps identify what approaches are working and what efforts need to be improved.
“We attend captains’ and tournament meetings, as well as fishery management council meetings throughout the year to make sure the industry is aware of the regulations,” said Enforcement Officer William Widener. “Our methods of communicating with industry are always evolving and it’s something we’re always trying to improve.”
Increased patrols and enforcement activities are not the only ways NOAA is responding to the industry’s call for action. Fines deterring illegal activity are increasing, too.

Last year’s red snapper-focused enforcement activities resulted in NOAA Enforcement taking an enforcement action on more than 120 separate violations, with most occurring during a time when the federal season was closed. The significant level of willful non-compliance with federal regulations is not only unfair to the vast majority of fishers who abide by the rules, but indicates that those who choose to violate the law have been undeterred by the financial penalty currently being assessed for violations. In response, the NOAA Office of General Counsel has doubled the penalty for red snapper violations in the commercial and recreational fisheries this season.

*How much will a red snapper violation in federal waters in the Gulf and South Atlantic now cost?*
*For red snapper violations that involve fish caught in federal waters during a closed season, that are over the catch limit, undersized, or filleted at sea, the penalty now starts at $500 per violation, plus an additional $50 per fish — up to the first 20 fish �— associated with each violation. For more serious violations involving larger number of red snapper, where there is a history of past violations, or other extenuating circumstances, penalties may be assessed at a much higher amount in accordance with NOAA’s **Policy for the Assessment of Civil Administrative Penalties and Permit Sanctions**. This fine increase applies to both Gulf of Mexico and South Atlantic federal waters.*

In addition to the increase in fines, enforcement operations similar to those conducted last year will resume this season.
“We’re all responsible for ensuring our fisheries are sustainable for future generations,” said Antonaras. “We are committed to safeguarding our marine resources and will ensure compliance with related regulations.”
For information related to the red snapper season within state waters, visit each state’s fishery management department to obtain the regulations in state waters. Red snapper may not be harvested in state waters on board a vessel with a valid federal commercial or charter vessel/headboat permit.
If you witness a violation, contact the 24-hour NOAA Office of Law Enforcement Hotline at 1-800-853-1964; tips may be left anonymously.

-
_Story by Ally Rogers, communications officer for NOAA’s Office of Law Enforcement. To contact her, please call 301-427-8255 or email_ _[email protected]__._
_Published May 4, 2017. _


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## CurDog

Quote:
"For red snapper violations that involve fish caught in federal waters during a closed season, that are *over the catch limit, undersized, or filleted at sea*, the penalty now starts at $500 per violation." 

Wonder what the fine is *IF* you were within size/length/limits ? Or is it the $50.00 per fish? :whistling:


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## MrFish

> For red snapper violations that involve fish *caught in federal waters* during a closed season, that are over the catch limit, undersized, or filleted at sea, the penalty now starts at $500 per violation, plus an additional $50 per fish


Their wording. Doesn't say "possession", but "caught". If you caught them in state waters and just had possession in Federal waters, then I would think they would have to prove that you caught them there. Last time I checked, you shouldn't have to prove that you didn't catch them there. You know, with that whole "innocent, until proven guilty" thing.


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## how2fish

Realtor said:


> dang, I know I'm following the rules, those fines are STIFF!
> 
> I dont know much, but I do know not to be a crank with the law.... some of you should be lawyers....


My Dad taught me to... Never mouth off to the folks with badges and guns...it is Yes Sir No Sir and if needed let your lawyer do the yelling...I was taught that before I was ever allowed to take the car out and it has stood me in good stead for almost 50 years..


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## submariner

the catch limit for a closed season is 0 

Keep in mind that Florida and Al get money from the Feds to allow them to ride their boats
be careful and safe and above all don't get caught with fish out of season, ,under size or over the limit. You can but a lot of steak or fish for $500.


CurDog said:


> Quote:
> "For red snapper violations that involve fish caught in federal waters during a closed season, that are *over the catch limit, undersized, or filleted at sea*, the penalty now starts at $500 per violation."
> 
> Wonder what the fine is *IF* you were within size/length/limits ? Or is it the $50.00 per fish? :whistling:


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## tbaxl

Explain this to me, if NOAA is so concerned out the stocks, why not make the fine the same for recreational and commercial boats, and while we are at it why not address the wonton waste by the commercial boats for the oversized fish they toss that just turn into shark food.


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## JackyJack

I was told by an Officer high up in the food chain at Alabama Fish & Game Enforcement Division that it is permissable to fillet fish in the gulf, provided the carcas must be intact from head to tail along with the skin. This would allow identification and size of the species. I didn't ask him if that included Federal waters. Does anyone know the answer to that question?


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## onoahi

haven't read entire thread so sorry if its been stated.

I got pinched last summer. They are going to send you a certified letter in November and offer a settlement of $450. You have 30 days to pay, after that they are going to go after the maximum penalty allowed(don't know that). 

you don't go to criminal/ civil court, its an arbitrated hearing before a judge. 

The ALMP wrote me up, so don't buy into crap that they are on "our" side. They aren't.


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## Splittine

JackyJack said:


> I was told by an Officer high up in the food chain at Alabama Fish & Game Enforcement Division that it is permissable to fillet fish in the gulf, provided the carcas must be intact from head to tail along with the skin. This would allow identification and size of the species. I didn't ask him if that included Federal waters. Does anyone know the answer to that question?


Don't get caught in Florida water doing that. Fish must be landed whole.


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## jvalhenson

onoahi said:


> haven't read entire thread so sorry if its been stated.
> 
> I got pinched last summer. They are going to send you a certified letter in November and offer a settlement of $450. You have 30 days to pay, after that they are going to go after the maximum penalty allowed(don't know that).
> 
> you don't go to criminal/ civil court, its an arbitrated hearing before a judge.
> 
> The ALMP wrote me up, so don't buy into crap that they are on "our" side. They aren't.


for information sake where you inside, just across, or well beyond the 9 mile line?


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## onoahi

I was clearly in violation, at least 2miles over.


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## FleaBag

I miss my si tex xj-1.


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## JackyJack

Splittine said:


> Don't get caught in Florida water doing that. Fish must be landed whole.


Keeping the carcas intact along with the skin seems a reasonable approach and I applaud Alabama for allowing that. I launch in Alabama usually at Boggy Point but the issue is if I am forced to return to port with whole fish and no where to clean them at the public ramp, and staying in a motel for several days creates a problem. I live near Birmingham and keep my boat in Orange Beach, usually make a couple trips each month, sometimes more during the summer, but always stay in a motel. None of the motels I've found have a fish cleaning station. 

I understand Fla. is mostly surrounded by water and State regs. must apply to all not just Gulf Waters and I'm not trying to change Fla. game laws.

Alabama has a small contact with the gulf and I'm pleased they have taken a reasonable approach to the the fish fillet issue in State Waters.


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## CurDog

JackyJack said:


> Keeping the carcas intact along with the skin seems a reasonable approach and I applaud Alabama for allowing that. I launch in Alabama usually at Boggy Point but the issue is if I am forced to return to port with whole fish and no where to clean them at the public ramp, and staying in a motel for several days creates a problem. I live near Birmingham and keep my boat in Orange Beach, usually make a couple trips each month, sometimes more during the summer, but always stay in a motel. None of the motels I've found have a fish cleaning station.
> 
> I understand Fla. is mostly surrounded by water and State regs. must apply to all not just Gulf Waters and I'm not trying to change Fla. game laws.
> 
> Alabama has a small contact with the gulf and I'm pleased they have taken a reasonable approach to the the fish fillet issue in State Waters.



[quote, How much will a red snapper violation in federal waters in the Gulf and South Atlantic now cost?
For red snapper violations that involve fish caught in federal waters during a closed season, that are over the catch limit, undersized, *or filleted at sea,* the penalty now starts at $500 per violation, plus an additional $50 per fish — up to the first 20 fish �— associated with each violation. This fine increase applies to both Gulf of Mexico and South Atlantic federal waters.[/quote]

IDK, But I didn't see where they differentiated Between Florida and Alabama, But ALL Federal WATERS. So I think I could wait till I got home before cleaning them. :whistling:


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## dustyflair

Jackyjack...why in the hell would you want to filet a fish off shore...unkess its going on grill?


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## HRTCTLR

FWC boarded me Sunday. My GPS measured back to the beach read 8.89 NM. I was cordial and they were professional. They shewed me north a little.


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## JackyJack

dustyflair said:


> Jackyjack...why in the hell would you want to filet a fish off shore...unkess its going on grill?


Dusty,

If you will read my OP you will find my fishing trips to the gulf means I stay in a motel since my home is near Birmingham. I'm not aware of any public fish cleaning stations at any Alabama launch ramps or any motels. I usually fish multiple days and a filet stays fresher on ice than a whole fish even a gutted and de-gilled one.

Filleting my fish out side the Perdido buoy is a very good option for me. If I had a condo in OB then I would just clean them when I got home.


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## MrFish

JackyJack said:


> Dusty,
> 
> If you will read my OP you will find my fishing trips to the gulf means I stay in a motel since my home is near Birmingham. I'm not aware of any public fish cleaning stations at any Alabama launch ramps or any motels. I usually fish multiple days and a filet stays fresher on ice than a whole fish even a gutted and de-gilled one.
> 
> Filleting my fish out side the Perdido buoy is a very good option for me. If I had a condo in OB then I would just clean them when I got home.


I always carried a big cutting board and cleaned them on the tailgate of my truck.


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## bamachem

JackyJack said:


> Dusty,
> 
> If you will read my OP you will find my fishing trips to the gulf means I stay in a motel since my home is near Birmingham. I'm not aware of any public fish cleaning stations at any Alabama launch ramps or any motels. I usually fish multiple days and a filet stays fresher on ice than a whole fish even a gutted and de-gilled one.
> 
> Filleting my fish out side the Perdido buoy is a very good option for me. If I had a condo in OB then I would just clean them when I got home.


There's a reason there aren't any fish cleaning stations at public ramps. People would clean their fish and either dump the carcasses in the trash (hellacious stink) or dump them in the water (also a hellacious stink that spreads to wherever the tide takes the floating heads).

Cleaning fish at the ramp is a HORRIBLE idea.

I'm all for allowing them to be cleaned offshore, but if you have to keep the carcass until you are on land, then you might as well just clean them at the ramp and the problem of the rotting carcass is still there.

Charter docks used to have the solution - a chum station where the heads/bodies were ground up and dumped in the water to feed the pinfish. You could go to the chum grinders at about 4pm and get all the chum you wanted, and if you threw your bait net, you'd have enough live pinfish for an entire weekend with one throw.

Can't do that at a public ramp because the equipment would either get stolen or someone would get hurt and ruin it for all parties.


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## H2OBUG

Cross the line they will make you pay.
Live and die by shades of grey.

Robert Earl Keen


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## Split 1

I dump all my carcasses at the marina but over the rail towards open water. Not in the marina boat / ramp area. Or find a pier. It's all gone in a couple hrs. Probably not recommended if your marina is in some back water area. Little common sense goes a long ways. Too bad there's not much of it around.


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## FL Aggie

sovereign citizen


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## mak0195

See my thread regarding my NOAA experience


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## catdad100

*snapper on board*



jgraham154 said:


> Why would they need to look at my gps if they are beside me in their boat and have their own electronics ? It's not about being a dick, it's about right or wrong..
> 
> Is there case law saying they can search your electronics just because I'm on the open ocean, as opposed to being on land?


In this case fwc knew they were in federal waters with red snapper so that in itself might give them rights to look in gps,search boat,etc.sorta like having bag of drugs out in plain sight during a traffic stop. It is curious as to why they are spending so much time and effort,fuel etc.to be working in federal waters as I was checked in over 200ft of water a few years back by them.


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## macm

*Fishing Over the Line*

NOAA published it was stepping up the enforcement this year. The fines are steep and will ruin your day. As far as not letting them look at your GPS log; they are basically doing u a favor to keep up the conversation and be educational so they can say that it was an accident if you are barely over the line. They will show you, on your GPS, which page will show you the line. In reality they have you on radar and know exactly what you are doing before they even pull up to you. Be friendly and get educated being happy to get a warning, if that is what they do. The FWC guys don't have much of a sense of humor but they don't want to be enforcing the Federal Waters restrictions in any case. It really is ridiculous what has happened to the red snapper fishery in the last few years. It is all about the money for commercial interests. The states should be monitoring and enforcing the laws. Hope that you don't get stopped by a Federal Authority for fishing over the line a little. That won't be any fun at all.


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## H2OBUG

Update
Got my ticket in the mail today $375
Think that is fair considering my mistake.


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## HRTCTLR

Ouch! Could have been worse


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## MaxxT

Fair and reasonable, could have been much worse


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## jeremyledford

Good deal and glad to hear it man. I think I'd pay that the first second I could. That nervous sick wait is over.


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## BrntPhish

Kinda stinks though, considering now it is legal fri - Sun.. correct?


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## lastcast

Did you ever plot your GPS to see if you were farther than 9 nm from the nearest land?


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## Burnt Drag

jspooney said:


> According to NOAA, there is definitely a set fine.
> http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/gces/SE SS & Fix-It -- Oct 2014.pdf


I noticed there was no jail time listed. Some dude in S. FL is going down for some serious time for lobster violations.


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## lobsterman

jgraham154 said:


> Do you really feel like they will arrest you for accidentally fishing over the line?
> Last time I checked, law enforcement need a warrant to enter your personal electronic devices, without your permission.


You might want to check that closely. I do believe that the marine law enforcement doesn't need probable cause and are not bound by search and seizure laws.


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## Split 1

They own you on the water! 

Warrant lmao!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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