# Lionfish clean up of private spots



## WhackUmStackUm

Just an informal poll for the spear fishermen out there. How many of you would be willing to keep private spots clear of lionfish in exchange for the numbers?

Scenario #1 would allow you to shoot other fish on the reef.

Scenario #2 would allow you to shoot only lionfish.

The reefs would be checked once each year. If they are staying mostly lionfish-free, then you would be able to get more numbers. If not, then you would get no more numbers and the spot would be given to someone else to clean.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Gator McKlusky

How would the spot remain "private"?


----------



## flappininthebreeze

I'm in. Sign me up for either scenario.


----------



## no woryz

We tried this a year ago and it didn't go well.... good luck though....... most folks on here would rather have a private reef full of lionfish than have somebody kill them off of it who really doesn't give two cares about the private reef itself.....


----------



## naclh2oDave

What if the spots are outside of the LARS area?


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

Thanks for the questions and feedback.

The spots are "private" in the sense that they are not on a published reef list.

It would probably be best to use scenario #2 (kill only lionfish) on sites inside of a LAARS, and on numbers that were provided by other fishermen.

I have a very large book of numbers that I have collected over the past few years. I do not fish and I rarely spear anything but lionfish these days. I am sure that these sites are harboring plenty of lionfish. Unfortunately, the lionfish are eating tons of prey each day (literally). These are prey that would normally be available to our native fish.

Most of my numbers that I have visited are pyramids and chicken coops. However, I have only visited a small percentage of the numbers I have.

Whackum


----------



## Cajun Spearit

WhackUmStackUm said:


> Just an informal poll for the spear fishermen out there. How many of you would be willing to keep private spots clear of lionfish in exchange for the numbers?
> 
> Scenario #1 would allow you to shoot other fish on the reef.
> 
> Scenario #2 would allow you to shoot only lionfish.
> 
> The reefs would be checked once each year. If they are staying mostly lionfish-free, then you would be able to get more numbers. If not, then you would get no more numbers and the spot would be given to someone else to clean.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I'm in, numbers or not!!! Any excuse to get in the water...


----------



## gatorhos

Would definently help with this project im out of destin but dive alot too the sw. Numbers would remain private as well as i have alot of private honey holes as well that i have been cleaning this summer.


----------



## MrFish

Would the private reef owner be privy to any fresh meat?


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

MrFish said:


> Would the private reef owner be privy to any fresh meat?


 What would you recommend?


----------



## ButlerCoOwner

I'd be willing to participate!


----------



## recess

What Depth are u looking for?


----------



## sealark

WhackUmStackUm said:


> Just an informal poll for the spear fishermen out there. How many of you would be willing to keep private spots clear of lionfish in exchange for the numbers?
> 
> Scenario #1 would allow you to shoot other fish on the reef.
> 
> Scenario #2 would allow you to shoot only lionfish.
> 
> The reefs would be checked once each year. If they are staying mostly lionfish-free, then you would be able to get more numbers. If not, then you would get no more numbers and the spot would be given to someone else to clean.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Whackem thats a horrable way to give reef numbers out to everyone that you didnt build or put anything into. Yes i know you got thousands in the fisher side scan. Keep your finds and dive them yourself. You give those non public deployed spots and everyone will have them soon. And what for you will never eradicate the lionfish. 
I am in Key West now and the lionfish have leveled offq i saw maybe 20 in over 25 hours in the water. Two years ago thare was hundreds everywhere. Nature will control them in our area also. 
All you will do is distribute private numbers to everyone that hasnt put many hours or money in to building one. Its about as good of an idea as you selling the numbers. Its a lousey idea.


----------



## kwik 1

we were diving out of destin today and two people in our group saw a mother-in-law fish catch and eat a small lion fish. Maybe they do have predators.


----------



## markw4321

Only wait I would do it on my privately deployed coops in the laars area would be if I took and ran my boat. Divers would 've deployed and recovered not knowing the exact coordinates they were on.


----------



## sealark

In reply to the lionfish eating all the game fish food is BS also. Take the bait this year and next year the bait will overproduce to make up the loss evolution at its finest. Like i said before only man with superior intellagence can destroy a population of anything. Leave it alone and it will level off to an exceptable level. I know my spelling and vocab sucks on cell phone in key west destroying the lobster population with no spellcheck.


----------



## El Kabong

sealark said:


> In reply to the lionfish eating all the game fish food is BS also. Take the bait this year and next year the bait will overproduce to make up the loss evolution at its finest. Like i said before only man with superior intellagence can destroy a population of anything. Leave it alone and it will level off to an exceptable level. I know my spelling and vocab sucks on cell phone in key west destroying the lobster population with no spellcheck.


They're not eating baitfish, they're eating the reef-maintenance fish. You're also comparing live bottom to artificial reefs. On live bottom, the reef maintainers have places to hide where the lions can't get them. On a pyramid or coop, there's nothing between the fish and the lions. They all get eaten. The grasses, sponges, tunicates, corals, etc. that support the baitfish lose balance, die, and have to be reestablished from scratch (but still with no maintenance).

And the lions aren't migrating here, their eggs are being shipped in on the loop current, meaning that if we killed every lionfish in our part of the Gulf, they would be back in force in a year or two.

If you want to sit on your @$$ and do nothing, then knock yourself out. I'll be happy to shoot your share for you.


----------



## TONER

Looks like we better leave a few lionfish on each spot to reproduce soon that's all we'll be able to shoot soon who would have ever thought we would have a 9 day snapper season then close trigger& Amberjack all in the same year ! :thumbdown:


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

kwik 1 said:


> we were diving out of destin today and two people in our group saw a mother-in-law fish catch and eat a small lion fish. Maybe they do have predators.


 I have heard of several others witnessing the same thing. 

We are collecting toadfish and small lionfish now for an experiment that the folks at Washington High School will be performing soon.


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

markw4321 said:


> Only wait I would do it on my privately deployed coops in the laars area would be if I took and ran my boat. Divers would 've deployed and recovered not knowing the exact coordinates they were on.


 I think this scenario is an important part of an on-going lionfish management plan for our area. Many divers are happy to shoot lionfish, even if they never know the location of the reef. Perhaps one or two dives a year could keep a private reef relatively lionfish-free.


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

sealark said:


> Whackem thats a horrable way to give reef numbers out to everyone that you didnt build or put anything into. Yes i know you got thousands in the fisher side scan. Keep your finds and dive them yourself. You give those non public deployed spots and everyone will have them soon. And what for you will never eradicate the lionfish.
> I am in Key West now and the lionfish have leveled offq i saw maybe 20 in over 25 hours in the water. Two years ago thare was hundreds everywhere. Nature will control them in our area also.
> All you will do is distribute private numbers to everyone that hasnt put many hours or money in to building one. Its about as good of an idea as you selling the numbers. Its a lousey idea.


 What you all think of this statement?


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

recess said:


> What Depth are u looking for?


 I have numbers from 60' deep on out to 350'. Are you a diver?


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

sealark said:


> In reply to the lionfish eating all the game fish food is BS also. Take the bait this year and next year the bait will overproduce to make up the loss evolution at its finest. Like i said before only man with superior intellagence can destroy a population of anything. Leave it alone and it will level off to an exceptable level.


Ron, I feel there is a clear line between faith and science. Science is much more limited than faith, in that scientific belief is required to be supported by facts. There are research studies (facts) supporting the belief that lionfish can cause on-going damage to reefs and fisheries, just google "lionfish research Bahamas."

I know you strongly believe that nature will stabilize the lionfish population at an acceptable level. I do not deny you the right to believe in this. However, I have not run across any lionfish-specific facts to support this belief. If you know of any, I hope you will pass them along. Lacking evidence to support your belief, I would have to categorize your belief as *faith*, not science. Of course faith may lead to science, and often does. 

For my part, I honestly hope that one day the facts support your belief.


----------



## TeaSea

WhackUmStackUm said:


> What you all think of this statement?


Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were offering to dive OTHER peoples private numbers (and keep them private) to rid them of Lion Fish. I did not understand you to say you were going to give out your own private numbers. I think your offer is a good one. I myself have no private numbers (damn few public ones) and rarely ever leave the Bay to fish. I have no idea what nature will do balance out the situation but judging how nature has kept Armadillos and killer bees South of the Rio Grande I have my doubts.


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

TeaSea said:


> Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were offering to dive OTHER peoples private numbers (and keep them private) to rid them of Lion Fish. I did not understand you to say you were going to give out your own private numbers. I think your offer is a good one. I myself have no private numbers (damn few public ones) and rarely ever leave the Bay to fish. I have no idea what nature will do balance out the situation but judging how nature has kept Armadillos and killer bees South of the Rio Grande I have my doubts.


 No problem. Send me a PM if you need numbers along the 3 Mile Bridge.


----------



## MrFish

> Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were offering to dive OTHER peoples private numbers (and keep them private) to rid them of Lion Fish.


That is how I took it also.



> I have no idea what nature will do balance out the situation but judging how nature has kept *Armadillos* and killer bees South of the Rio Grande I have my doubts.


I have found a few hundred thousand armadillos that are lost.


----------



## sealark

I have dove Africa,the red sea and now the Keys and have seen lionfish not overrunning the reefs. In fact look at my posts there are more red grouper and hogfisfh and bigger lobster than any other years in KW.


----------



## sealark

I hit post to quick. The lionfish here in KW where i dive have leveled off and this year i have not seen another diver and lionfish have thined out a lot only seen maybe 20 or 30 at the most. And i covered a lot of ground. I took a friend to see the reef at sand key and saw 2 lionfish in an hour dive. Some or something is controlling them.


----------



## El Kabong

sealark said:


> I hit post to quick. The lionfish here in KW where i dive have leveled off and this year i have not seen another diver and lionfish have thined out a lot only seen maybe 20 or 30 at the most. And i covered a lot of ground. I took a friend to see the reef at sand key and saw 2 lionfish in an hour dive. Some or something is controlling them.


Research has shown that lionfish learn to hide from divers, either by dodging a spear themselves, or, by watching their cousins being speared. I have personally observed this. When I go to private spots that have never been hunted, I can take every fish my spear will reach. When I go to spots that have been previously hunted, I often find them folded up in the reef or structure. They have darkened their skin, to better blend in shadows, they are in the holes with lobsters, they actively flee my approach before I've fired a single shot. I have seen this with my own eyes, and science supports this theory.

and, once again, you're comparing natural reef to artificial. There is a huge difference.

finally, there's this: http://news.yahoo.com/lionfishs-terminator-style-killing-alarms-scientists-123504928.html

I echo Brian's thought about you being correct though. I would prefer to be proven wrong, and hope very much that you are correct.


----------



## El Kabong

WhackUmStackUm said:


> I have numbers from 60' deep on out to 350'. Are you a diver?


Brian, I am a normoxic trimix/extended range diver. I've participated in every GCLC event this year, and have only taken a speargun out once this year (during snapper season). Every other dive I've executed in the Pensacola/Orange Beach area was a dive to kill as many lionfish as I could (though lobsters also went in the tube ;-) )

I've collected and forwarded lionfish DNA samples to researchers with the USGS this year, and offered to supply additional samples when they are needed. I've supplied lionfish and information to Alex Fogg, this year, and last, for his ongoing research. 

I am VERY invested in doing more than my fair share to mitigate the damage to our fishery caused by lionfish. 

I would be interested in any numbers you would like to share, down to around 200ft.

I would be willing to commit to taking only lionfish and lobster from any spot you share, and to ensure my buddies do the same. I would also be willing to keep the numbers private, and to only work with others that can be trusted to do the same. 

I dive out of Pensacola, and Orange Beach, and travel as far as Navarre (Brass Wreck, Timberholes, Etc.) to the East.


----------



## Chapman5011

They may put in a lionfish closure next season anyways. They are becoming overfished


----------



## spinfactor

I think it's a great idea Whack'Um. Besides, if a owner is willing to have his or her home made reef cleaned that is their business and serves them a good purpose. From what I'm reading their is a predator that kills and eats Lion Fish, its grouper. But for some reason out here in the gulf our grouper don't find them attractive. Oh yea, please PM those # around bridge, have kids and don't want to take to far out. Thanks and good luck cleaning them lionfish out. Planning to get dive qualified soon and may join you. 

Read here: 

http://news.yahoo.com/lionfishs-ter...gRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDQ3Ml8x?pt=BureoF3GVB


----------



## sealark

Bryan you got my e mail address send me all the private numbers in less than 100 ft and i will be glad to kill some lionfish and a couple in season fish for consumption. And would report the lionfish population on every dove reef back to you.


----------



## sealark

Bryan 4 day no list of the reefs. I thought we were buds you did give me a like for my post. My boat is ready to go do some research for the good of saving the reefs from destruction. Oh this year the lobster population and size in the keys has been one of the best years yet. The lionfish population has dwindled since two years ago. Maybe the lobster are eating them.:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## jspooney

Bryan, I think you have a good idea, but you'd have to be selective about who you choose. I think most people would do it, but trusting who does it is another story.


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

sealark said:


> Bryan 4 day no list of the reefs. I thought we were buds you did give me a like for my post. My boat is ready to go do some research for the good of saving the reefs from destruction. Oh this year the lobster population and size in the keys has been one of the best years yet. The lionfish population has dwindled since two years ago. Maybe the lobster are eating them.:thumbup::thumbup:


Sorry Ron, I am not ignoring you. 

I have a couple books of numbers I bought. I have been chipping away at visiting each spot and using my bottom machine to confirm whether there is structure there or not. As you can imagine, this takes time. 

To be honest I haven't been keeping track of the depth of reefs I have found, so this is something I will record going forward. Given the general area that the reefs are in, I suspect that the ones nearer to shore are in 85-100' of water and the others are around 100-120'.

I have large groups of numbers both east and west of Pensacola Pass. Most of the numbers I have verified are to the west.

Whackum


----------



## jspooney

Should you decide to do it, I would help keep the closer ones clean of lionfish. It would be a great place to get the new kid BC some experience.


----------



## sealark

East west north or south. My boat goes in all directions. Just send me the couple hundred you have confirmed.


----------



## WhackUmStackUm

For those who might me interested in my adopt-a-reef program, would you be willing to provide me with:


A brief description of the structure and it's condition.
The number of lionfish seen and harvested at the site.
Provide me with lionfish harvested, or at least their heads when you filet them.

Example descriptions: 


"Site 1004: Two concrete pyramids. Both are intact. Six feet of relief."
"Site 574: Two partially buried chicken coops. Three feet of relief."

All reports would be entered via a website.

Suggestions and comments?


----------



## jspooney

WhackUmStackUm said:


> For those who might me interested in my adopt-a-reef program, would you be willing to provide me with: [*]A brief description of the structure and it's condition. [*]The number of lionfish seen and harvested at the site. [*]Provide me with lionfish harvested, or at least their heads when you filet them. Example descriptions: [*]"Site 1004: Two concrete pyramids. Both are intact. Six feet of relief." [*]"Site 574: Two partially buried chicken coops. Three feet of relief." All reports would be entered via a website. Thoughts and comments?


Absolutely. I'll provide whatever you want. And I'll provide video if you want.


----------



## flappininthebreeze

WhackUmStackUm said:


> For those who might me interested in my adopt-a-reef program, would you be willing to provide me with:
> 
> 
> A brief description of the structure and it's condition.
> The number of lionfish seen and harvested at the site.
> Provide me with lionfish harvested, or at least their heads when you filet them.
> 
> Example descriptions:
> 
> 
> "Site 1004: Two concrete pyramids. Both are intact. Six feet of relief."
> "Site 574: Two partially buried chicken coops. Three feet of relief."
> 
> All reports would be entered via a website.
> 
> Suggestions and comments?


Suggested data above is good, but anything additional is better. Time of day, vis estimate, current, temp, other fish observed, is all good info to collect. even better is behavior of Lionfish (in the open, hugging structure, hiding, does behavior change on subsequent visits), is better. I'm getting anecdotal reports of hiding behavior on heavily fished spots, suggesting some learning curve on the fish's part. 

That said, count me in.


----------



## Riledup

Id be glad to help out. I was in the lionfish shoot out this past weekend and managed to kill 260 lions in five dives on private reefs. One of the reefs I dove this past Saturday I had cleaned out 2 months prior and it was covered up again with the little a**holes! Definitely need to manage the private holes or they will be useless.


----------



## Berry

count me in with cleaning off some spots and providing feed back. the more we know they better that can be controlled. 

I agree with sealark they are here to stay but I think they will cause irreversible damage before they level off. The bigger ones are starting to back up for cover instead of just flaring out spines and staring at you while you pop them off. from my experience they seem to thrive more on the coops and pyramids the numbers on them are likely to by 100 a more vs similar size man made structure like the tanks (i hit the tank field west of orange beach often and mostly see 5-10) on the natural bottom (paradise hole only one i have dove recently saw maybe 25 on two dives.


----------

