# Flying With Firearms???



## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

Flying to Kansas for 10 days In Dec and taking 2 rifles and a pistol. I'll have both rifles in a double rifle pelican case and the pistol in it's own case. What would be the extra cost of this and what process do I need to do? Also if something happens to the guns is the airlines liable for it or do I need to invest in some kind of insurance. It's roughly $7000 worth of rifles.


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## Mudigger (Aug 5, 2011)

The gun cases must be unlocked for inspection and locked for transport . The ammunition rules use to require it separate from the firearms but it seems to have changed and now must be in the gun case. Get insurance as the damage may come from antigun airline workers. If you are a member of the NRA,their insurance may cover you. Double check with TSA (http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm).


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## welldoya (Oct 5, 2007)

A friend of mine flew to Newfoundland and the airlines dang near destroyed his new rifle case. I think those guys try to tear them up.
I would for sure understand the airlines policies and get insurance if need be. Remember about 3 or 4 years ago when a shotgun was found behind the Coke machine in the employee lounge at Atlanta's Hartsfield airport ?
Gee, I wonder how that got there ?
I don't trust those yahoos as far as I can throw them. I came back from Vegas a few years ago and there was dried grass inside my suitcase. I doubt there is dried grass INSIDE the terminal.


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## knot @ Work (Apr 18, 2012)

Take a few days on each end and drive, your guns will get there and back safely....


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

knot @ Work said:


> Take a few days on each end and drive, your guns will get there and back safely....


Don't have the time. The guy I'm going with works in Brazil and has to leave the day after we get back.


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## Mudigger (Aug 5, 2011)

I've flown a lot with firearms. Case is beat up to hell but the gun is fine. Did have nasty note on the case from time to time. Less now.


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## 36Hatt (Feb 8, 2012)

Have you thought about shipping them to yourself at your destination and then back again. It's less worry that losing them on a flight. 

Blaine


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## ironman172 (Sep 28, 2007)

Splittine said:


> Don't have the time. The guy I'm going with works in Brazil and has to leave the day after we get back.


you drive and let him fly....way safer and you can bring the kill back easier :thumbsup:


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## GATER69 (Nov 19, 2011)

If you have a friend or someone you trust have them shipped to them before you go!Airlines really tried there best to screw up a hunt to Alaska for me,i was there guns never showed up! Had to borrow a rifle from my buddy! Two weatherbies never seen again and over six months dealing with airline insurance! NEVER AGAIN!


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## bobinbusan (Feb 16, 2010)

SHIP THEM THE ONLY WAY TO GO :whistling: :thumbsup:


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

36Hatt said:


> Have you thought about shipping them to yourself at your destination and then back again. It's less worry that losing them on a flight.
> 
> Blaine


Illegal unless you ship to an FFL. And there is not one anywhere close to this place. Might have to look for one in Wichita, shipping would be killer though. Last time I shipped that amount of guns it was over $300, so you are looking at $600 round trip. Plus 3 FFL transfer fees.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

I have flown with handguns and they always go a suitcase and inside a pelican case within the suitcase. For rifles, just don't go cheap on the case. Needs to be able to handle and keep your rifles safe from direct 6' falls onto the pavement.

Extra cost will be if it's over the baggage limit per each airline. It's just a checked bag etc... You notify the ticket counter person that you are declaring some firearms. Depending on the airline, they will want to inspect the case and you can lock it back up. Do not put TSA locks on your gun cases. The best lock that will fit on the case is the best one to use. Best thing to do is read the process from the airline you are traveling on. TSA website has the federal rules. But each airline will have a different process to adhere to the rules etc...

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

Here is delta's information:

*Shooting equipment*

Shooting equipment is accepted as checked baggage only. It must fit within the very specific criteria that we outline below.
*Packaging and Presenting/Declaring Firearms*


Declare to the Delta representative that you are checking a firearm.
Declare the existence of a firearm to security personnel if a security checkpoint is prior to the Delta counter.
All firearms must be declared by the passenger to a Delta representative at the main ticket counter.
Present firearm(s) *unloaded* and sign and date a "Firearms Unloaded" declaration. This form *must* be signed and dated in the presence of the Agent, and a new form *must* be completed for each trip.
Firearms must be packed in *a locked manufacturer's hard–sided container *specifically designed for the firearm, a locked hard–sided gun case, or a locked hard–sided piece of luggage. Handguns may be packed in a locked hard–sided gun case, and then packed inside an unlocked soft–sided piece of luggage. However, a Conditional Acceptance Tag must be used in this case.

*Note:* If the firearm is still accessible without unlocking the case, the case will NOT be deemed "locked". If your firearm is retrievable you may be subject to TSA fines and/or refused transport.
Maintain entry permits in your possession for the country or countries of destination or transit.
Ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood, plastic or metal boxes and provide separation for cartridges.
If you need to travel with a weapon as checked baggage, you are responsible for knowledge of and compliance with all Federal, State, or Local laws regarding the possession and transportation of firearms. For more information about this regulation you can visit the TSA site.
If you are transporting a firearm to the United Kingdom as checked baggage, a permit from the United Kingdom is specifically required. You must contact the United Kingdom for more information about securing this permit.

Ammunition in excess of 11 lbs. per passenger or that contains potential projectiles is not allowed.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

I fly with firearms monthly for work. Usually two handguns and ammo. I place both handguns in a locked (TSA lock) pistol case with the empty magazines. Ammo can be carried in retail packaging in the same suitcase but is limited to 11lbs by Delta (only airline I use). Pistol case and ammo goes in a hard-sided suitcase (not required) that is also locked (TSA lock). They don't like bulk ammo or loaded magazines. I use the case guard ammo wallets for self defense carry ammo and the retail box for range fodder.

You must declare the firearms to the ticket agent (sometimes they want to look - sometimes they don't). The agent gives you an orange declaration card to sign - and that is placed inside your suit case, but outside the pistol case on top.

A rifle case will be treated like a suitcase - must be locked (multiple locks if necessary to make it completely inaccessible) - and the declaration card will go inside.

In hundreds of flights - both pre and post 9/11 - I've never had anything lost or come up missing. Luggage has been delayed at times - but always showed up eventually. I think the typical value limit on a bag is $250 liability - but I haven't ever bought any insurance.

Occasionally, I've encountered an unknowledgeable airline agent - or a TSA flunkie with an attitude - so I keep a printed copy of the TSA's website and Delta's website information regarding firearms and ammo in my brief case. I've had to ask for a supervisor a few times - but always resolved any issue in my favor.

The airline agents and TSA agents encounter more firearms in checked bags these days - so it isn't treated like a big deal at the airports I frequent...more just a common occurrence.

Do not try to check firearms in luggage at NYC/NJ or IL airports - it will lead to an arrest most likely. I avoid the communist states and locations if at all possible!


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Splittine said:


> Illegal unless you ship to an FFL. And there is not one anywhere close to this place. Might have to look for one in Wichita, shipping would be killer though. Last time I shipped that amount of guns it was over $300, so you are looking at $600 round trip. Plus 3 FFL transfer fees.


Actually, you can ship firearms to yourself in another state with no FFL involvement.

See ATF's FAQ on their website.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

scubapro said:


> I fly with firearms monthly for work. Usually two handguns and ammo. I place both handguns in a locked (TSA lock) pistol case with the empty magazines.


I was told and under the imppresion (reading the law) that it cannot be a TSA lock. That allows someone else other than you to open the locked container and gain access to the weapon. TSA locks have numbered keys that TSA officials have access to. 

TSA defines a locked container as follows:

The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from being accessed. Locked cases that can be pulled open with little effort cannot be brought aboard the aircraft. 

By putting that TSA lock on there, you are giving someone else access to it.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Telum Pisces said:


> I was told and under the imppresion (reading the law) that it cannot be a TSA lock. That allows someone else other than you to open the locked container and gain access to the weapon. TSA locks have numbered keys that TSA officials have access to.
> 
> TSA defines a locked container as follows:
> 
> ...


Yep - giving TSA access so they don't cut the lock off to inspect when necessary after it has left my control. That's what they instructed me to do post 9/11 - and I have been doing just that, making hundreds of flights without issue.

If they cut off a non-TSA lock to inspect, there is then no way for them to lock it back up. Since it can't be locked (and you're most likely already boarded) - they will not allow it to be placed on the aircraft. It will sit in that airport's TSA area - unsecured and free for pilferage - until you reach your destination and discover the bag didn't make it onto the aircraft. No telling what hoops you will have to jump through to get it forwarded - or even back into your possession...


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## rtspring (Aug 18, 2009)

scubapro said:


> Yep - giving TSA access so they don't cut the lock off to inspect when necessary after it has left my control. That's what they instructed me to do post 9/11 - and I have been doing just that, making hundreds of flights without issue.
> 
> If they cut off a non-TSA lock to inspect, there is then no way for them to lock it back up. Since it can't be locked (and you're most likely already boarded) - they will not allow it to be placed on the aircraft. It will sit in that airport's TSA area - unsecured and free for pilferage - until you reach your destination and discover the bag didn't make it onto the aircraft. No telling what hoops you will have to jump through to get it forwarded - or even back into your possession...


I have not flown with firarms many times but when I have I have never had any issues. 

As with the lock, I do not use a TSA lock but I am regularly asked to stay around the counter for 10-15 min after checking the case before I go through security, just incase the TSA agents do want to inspect the inside/firarms so I can provide the key. Have never had a issue doing it this way. I wouldn't use a TSA lock only because there are only so many locks and they share a common key at some point that someone else may have. Also they are no where near beefy enough to satisfy my needs.


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

I have always been inspected by a TSA agent when flying with a firearm. They sign off as good and it should not have to be opened up again. If they didn't inspect it before I left the area, I would probably ask them to so that the situation you describe does not happen I suppose. I suppose I am a little paranoid that someone has access to the gun during it's journey.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

scubapro said:


> Yep - giving TSA access so they don't cut the lock off to inspect when necessary after it has left my control. That's what they instructed me to do post 9/11 - and I have been doing just that, making hundreds of flights without issue.
> 
> If they cut off a non-TSA lock to inspect, there is then no way for them to lock it back up. Since it can't be locked (and you're most likely already boarded) - they will not allow it to be placed on the aircraft. It will sit in that airport's TSA area - unsecured and free for pilferage - until you reach your destination and discover the bag didn't make it onto the aircraft. No telling what hoops you will have to jump through to get it forwarded - or even back into your possession...


It is my understanding that you can use whatever lock you person desires as long as the case is secure and that you alone are the only person that has access to the case. 

A TSA lock from an ammeter locksmith's perspective is a junk lock that can easily be hacked or broken into. Frankly, many locks at the hardware store are junk. I admit that it is arguable whether or not to spring for expensive locks when someone can easily dremel into it or just steal the case and open it later.

Deviant Ollam who is well known in the locksport (picking locks for fun) community wrote a good article on flying with guns. Interestingly, he only flys with a firearm just so he can exploit how the law requires you to use your own locks in order to retain sole access to the case and how by federal law no one may open the case after its been inspected. This is a good way to fly if you have valuables and don't like the crummy TSA locks.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Telum Pisces said:


> I have always been inspected by a TSA agent when flying with a firearm. They sign off as good and it should not have to be opened up again. If they didn't inspect it before I left the area, I would probably ask them to so that the situation you describe does not happen I suppose. I suppose I am a little paranoid that someone has access to the gun during it's journey.


That's well and good. However, in some airports the TSA bag screen process is out front - and you could request that. At others (like Pensacola) it is behind the scenes and you don't have that option.

I prefer to deal with the TSA only if I absolutely have to... The majority of them are rejects that couldn't find employment anywhere else.

If I were to lose a weapon, I might change my practices - but at this point, the "hit" ratio for me is zero, so I'll not try to change what is working for me.

If I was like splittine - and transporting $7k in custom rifles, I'd probably opt for shipping them to myself for pickup at my destination via FedEx (fully insured). I'm usually transporting a couple of common polymer framed pistols - easily replaced and wouldn't break my fun money account if they came up missing...


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## Mudigger (Aug 5, 2011)

36Hatt said:


> Have you thought about shipping them to yourself at your destination and then back again. It's less worry that losing them on a flight.
> 
> Blaine


Usually, as to be shipped to someone with a federal firearms lic.


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## Mudigger (Aug 5, 2011)

scubapro said:


> Actually, you can ship firearms to yourself in another state with no FFL involvement.
> 
> See ATF's FAQ on their website.


Would the ATF rules override state law?


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## ironman172 (Sep 28, 2007)

Splittine said:


> Illegal unless you ship to an FFL. And there is not one anywhere close to this place. Might have to look for one in Wichita, shipping would be killer though. Last time I shipped that amount of guns it was over $300, so you are looking at $600 round trip. Plus 3 FFL transfer fees.


drive :whistling:


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

ironman172 said:


> drive :whistling:


I don't have that option this time. It has me burning at least 3 extra days. That cuts into my vacation time I have left for Alabama rut and family vaca. If we kill deer I don't have an issue getting them home. We have a guy that brings them to us around Christmas.


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## Mudigger (Aug 5, 2011)

Splittine said:


> I don't have that option this time. It has me burning at least 3 extra days. That cuts into my vacation time I have left for Alabama rut and family vaca.


Good case and fly.


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## bobinbusan (Feb 16, 2010)

Who will you be hunting with on this trip, friends or guide?
Borrow one from them?
How do you plan on bringing back your meat?
Good luck :thumbsup:


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

bobinbusan said:


> Who will you be hunting with on this trip, friends or guide?
> Borrow one from them?
> How do you plan on bringing back your meat?
> Good luck :thumbsup:


No one to borrow a gun from. Meat is coming back with the heads. already got it handled. Thanks guys.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Mudigger said:


> Would the ATF rules override state law?


 


ATF said:


> *Unlicensed Persons Questions*
> 
> 
> May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
> Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.


Source: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-additional


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## Jason (Oct 2, 2007)

Mudigger said:


> The gun cases must be unlocked for inspection and locked for transport . The ammunition rules use to require it separate from the firearms but it seems to have changed and now must be in the gun case. Get insurance as the damage may come from antigun airline workers. If you are a member of the NRA,their insurance may cover you. Double check with TSA (http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm).



I just flew to PA last month and the rules were still the same.....Firearms must be in a hardcase, unlocked when showing to the check in folks....Then you sign a firearm form that is placed into the case then locked. The firearm is then sent to the back to be scanned. The ammo can be put into your luggage but must be in the manufacturers box/case. I took my Glock down to the 4 pieces and placed it into the box w/ extra mag and my knife.:thumbsup: They still acted like I was a terrorist!


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

Jason said:


> They still acted like I was a terrorist!


You should get the Sheriff to give you a "love letter" stating that you need to be armed while flying commercial due to "job duties" -- complete the TSA's "how to be safe while flying armed class" (what a joke) -- and just pack heat on your flights! :thumbsup:


You get to bypass the traditional screening process too -- just walk up to the person sitting at the desk watching people exit the sterile area so they don't double back. That person check's out your credentials and papers -- and your good to go to the gate! You do also have to notify the ticket agent, the gate agent, and the flight crew on your aircraft that your packing as well.

It's fun to "make" all the Federal LEOs when they bypass traditional security wearing their 5.11 Covert Casual Shirts as cover garments... I've gotten pretty good at spotting them.

I "made" an entire 6 person "Advanced Team" from the USSS leaving Pensacola on a Delta flight one afternoon prior to an Obama visit to the panhandle. A female member of the team and a male partner were seated in the row in front of my exit row. We made eye contact as she adjusted her holster prior to being seated...I could tell that she knew that I knew...without speaking a word. (They had also seen me declare my firearms at the ticket counter while they were checking in with the next agent over)


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## 36Hatt (Feb 8, 2012)

Mudigger said:


> Usually, as to be shipped to someone with a federal firearms lic.


If you own the guns and ship them to yourself, it is legal.

Blaine


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## Az-Vic (Jan 7, 2012)

I do it a couple times a year; box them up and mail from myself....to myself from local post office, perfectly legal,and cheaper than checking as baggage.


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

Az-Vic said:


> I do it a couple times a year; box them up and mail from myself....to myself from local post office, perfectly legal,and cheaper than checking as baggage.


Not in my case. Insurance alone kills me.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

I'd offer to fly you out there and back (it would be a fun way to travel and see some of the countryside) in my airplane but the expenses in fuel would far exceed shipping/insurance costs... Now, if I was offered a free spot on a hunting trip -- hmmmm....


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## Too much junk (Jul 8, 2011)

Just be sure to be back in time to watch Alabama play in the National Championship Game.:thumbup:


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

scubapro said:


> I'd offer to fly you out there and back (it would be a fun way to travel and see some of the countryside) in my airplane but the expenses in fuel would far exceed shipping/insurance costs... Now, if I was offered a free spot on a hunting trip -- hmmmm....


Thanks for the offer but my brother wants to go so bad he can't stand it. The problem is its 8000 acres of private land and they only allow 5 people to hunt it all year. I was lucky enough to get the invite.


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## bobinbusan (Feb 16, 2010)

Another good way to go, 
I do it a couple times a year; box them up and mail from myself....to myself from local post office, perfectly legal,and cheaper than checking as baggage. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Maybe you should use a bow or crossbow?


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## Splittine (Nov 24, 2007)

bobinbusan said:


> Another good way to go,
> I do it a couple times a year; box them up and mail from myself....to myself from local post office, perfectly legal,and cheaper than checking as baggage. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe you should use a bow or crossbow?


I can check them on a plane for $25. It would cost $600 to ship. I have a heavy duty pelican case. That's the route I'm going.


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