# Who would be willing?



## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Who amoung us would be willing to contribute to a legal fund to hire a legal firm to challenge the NMFS/Gulf Council and Magusen Stevens Act?

I keep hearing, "Let's all Call our Congressman"... didn't help.
"Let's go to Washington and make our voice heard." Crickets
"Join CCA, Join yada yada" Nothing
17 boats, all CFH, formed what I would call an un-constitutional "system rig" that granted them a priviledge not granted to any other rec boats. 
The Magnusen-Stevens act was supposed to keep one division of the fishery from getting special privileges. I think any Federal judge would agree. 

I'll contribute the first $100 if we can get a trustworthy treasurer. 
C'mon Mark Watson... be the treasurer!! If not you, Capt. Wes!


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## 2RC's II (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm in fore a C note. Maybe that guy writing a paper on this who called me a DA will pony up too. And I really don't care about ARS but I know it will be everything sooner rather than later.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

I wouldn't just want to go after them on the Exempted Permits, I'd want them to open their books and show us EXACTLY how they know we've "overfished". I'm tired of this silly gospel coming from un-godly sources.


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

What's the name of this organization going to be? I would be willing to try and set us up a free wix website that can accept donations. Need to get that treasurer going too!

Sent using tapatalk


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## NoMoSurf (Oct 2, 2007)

Get it running and I will contribute. I know several other guys that are not on this forum that will pitch in as well.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

ill donate 100, but I have to say, its going to be in vain.... once the $$ runs out, people wont donate over and over again, then what? I think effort would be more productive if we get on the backs of the local BOCC and go the political route. just 2 cents, but I'll give a hundred bucks..... to get something started....


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## dockmaster (Sep 27, 2007)

Id do a c note but i think it would take 50grande to do right

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk


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## jugislandrelic (Oct 9, 2007)

Add my name. I know a few more who would be in.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

I think somebody like John Stossel needs to publicize this issue.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

It won't have to be 100 bucks to have your voice heard. It would just be whatever you could spare. They're fighting us with rich peoples money. They're motivated and well funded. So far, we've just bitched, pissed, and moaned. Yeah, we've called, emailed, faxed, and begged our reps to stand up for us, but it seems we're on our own.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Gentlemen,

I am willing to help in any way possible and put money in as well. 

I do have a suggestion in terms of coordinating our collective efforts. I noted that in April of this year a new organization was started up by an individual in St. Pete, Fl. He like many of us was frustrated with federal fishery management in the Gulf. The organization is called the National Association of Recreational Anglers and it is brand new.

Here is a link to the website. 

http://www.freedom2fish.org

The following is a quote from their website.


"We are an organization created to inform the recreational fishing community regarding legislation and fishery management decisions that impact our community and to advocate with a loud voice for the recreational anglers in the fishery management and legislative process

Our mission is: to advocate for the rights of recreational anglers in the legislative and regulatory process, to educate anglers in fishery management issues and insure that management and legislative decisions are based on sound data."


Recreational fishing is a multibillion dollar industry with in excess of $41 billion in direct trip related expenses, with over 30 million participants (2011 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation ). When the total economic impact is included this amount nearly doubles and supports directly or indirectly hundreds of thousands of jobs. The importance of recreational fishing goes far beyond your ability to enjoy a time honored tradition. "


From what I can tell the org has gained some traction and has involvement of people that includes not only the Gulf, but the South Atlantic Region as well.
I am not sure if this organization would meet our needs but I thought since it is brand new and was formed to address the issues we face as recreational fisherman that I would mention it. 

If you would like I can ask the founder to join the pff if he will and answer questions etc regarding his vision?


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

I'm in. :thumbsup:

A C-note for now to help get things rolling, and possibly more $$ down the road if we can develop a coherent plan of action....even if it's just to hire Hooter's girls to show up at all the Gulf Council meetings with signs and chant "*KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY SNAPPER !!!*"


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Play'N Hooky said:


> I'm in. :thumbsup:
> 
> A C-note for now to help get things rolling, and possibly more $$ down the road if we can develop a coherent plan of action....even if it's just to hire Hooter's girls to show up at all the Gulf Council meetings with signs and chant "*KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY SNAPPER !!!*"


I would like to see that. Lol


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## tbaxl (Mar 13, 2013)

Count me in, I broached this subject when it hit the fan and had nothing but negative comments. Glad to see you are at least getting some traction. Might I suggest someone on here who is computer savy to do a search for more like minded groups and start to strengthen the numbers. CCA called me last week again to renew my membership, my response was their silence was complicity with the NMFS so I figured they did not want anglers anymore. So I will start with a C note like the others and throw in what I would have given to the CCA.


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## jjam (Dec 9, 2007)

Count me in too!

We need a qualified (great) attorney that will be committed and not just a check collector. This will be a huge factor to gain interest and get the funds rolling in.

Any recommendations? 


Jimmy


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## Freedom Outlaw (Oct 4, 2007)

dockmaster said:


> Id do a c note but i think it would take 50grande to do right
> 
> Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk


Having dealt with lawyers throughout my business career, I suspect you'd be looking at a 4 or 5 figure retainer at least just get the ball rolling. And typically when the billings exceed the retainer it is time to fill the till again.

I am not out to bust anyone's bubble, that is just the way lawyers work unless they take something on a contingency basis and I doubt that would happen in this case.

Also recognize you are going up against the federal government and their resources are pretty much unlimited.

Please don't think I am against the intent of this gesture. This just my opinion based on dealing with lawyers over the years. I've never sued anyone or been sued.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

markw4321 said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am willing to help in any way possible and put money in as well.
> 
> ...


Mark, my only reservation with these "groups" is that they often want to form a money making machine aka "organization"...they would rather have a long profitable fight than an victory that would end their dollar machine.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm in, post info as to where to donate and Ill write a check


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## huntnflorida (May 24, 2008)

Recreational Fishermens Union Local #1

I'm in for $100


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## badonskybuccaneers (Aug 19, 2013)

To arms brethren!!! 








Seriously....
I agree- and will donate! We need a well scholared spokesman (familiar with the subject and all parties involved), treasurer (someone knowledgeable of setting up proper accounts and trustworthy), hopefully an attorney or so familiar with this subject and procedure, and of course lots of $$$$$$$... 
Maybe seems like it could be monumental, but it MUST start somewhere... with someone!!!!


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## johnboatjosh (May 19, 2008)

I'm definitely in! Would it be possible to find an attorney who is ALSO a rec. fisherman that might be willing to help the cause in the form of time instead of he or she contributing $? I know, I know, a lawyer's time IS money. Just a thought though.


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

We certainly have the numbers. According to the latest statistics, there are about 30,700 members of this forum, 70,000 on 2CoolFishing, and 235,000 on The Hull Truth. Even accounting for overlap that still likely well over 250,000 just on those three sites. $10 from half of those members would be more than enough to get a lawyer's attention.:yes:


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

Post deleted

(_my apologies to the legal profession & Federal bureaucrats everywhere - well, not really, but post deleted anyway_)


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Burnt Drag said:


> Who amoung us would be willing to contribute to a legal fund to hire a legal firm to challenge the NMFS/Gulf Council and Magusen Stevens Act?
> 
> I keep hearing, "Let's all Call our Congressman"... didn't help.
> "Let's go to Washington and make our voice heard." Crickets
> ...


 I did not see this post before seeing and replying to the Snapper Revised post . (Need to join the two topics together now) I'm kicking a 1000.00 in to jump start this. 

And will raise more funds
.
Love to see the PFF give the EDF the finger.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm on the board of the N.A.R.A. - please get behind this new non-profit to send $$ to put towards the legal battle needed! Board members are not drawing salaries or making a penny on the funds raised.

http://www.freedom2fish.org/help.html


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## CaptBobBryant (May 16, 2014)

Burnt Drag said:


> Mark, my only reservation with these "groups" is that they often want to form a money making machine aka "organization"...they would rather have a long profitable fight than an victory that would end their dollar machine.


I appreciate your concern and can only state that:
We are not in the business of selling memberships, t-shirts, decals, or banquets.
We accept donations and use that money to perform the task of:
Changing the law that has driven us off the water, supporting those elected folks who stand with us, and try to get the folks who have stood on the sidelines for so long to stop waiting for the next shoe to drop.

As for suing that is a very tough row to hoe....
The first obstacle is MONEY. Just to get in the door of the court house you are looking at $50 to $100k and by the time all is said and done an easy quarter of a million dollars could be spent.

The second obstacle is suing to open a fishery that was closed under an interpretation of the law and in reaction to a different lawsuit.

Basically NMFS could be sued for damages for failing to properly manage the fishery. Those damages would be lost revenue by CFH and Head boats, restaurants and hotels who are losing money due to this closure.

For most of us...we have no other recourse than to fight the law that is killing our sport; and that is a marathon not a sprint...

It will not yield fruit this year or even next...but if we do not undo what EDF has done to this law we will all soon be a part of a huge Catch and Release fishery.....

Or we will all be showing what real civil disobedience looks like.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

Last I heard it's s $500k estimate so your gonna need 5000 guys at $100 a head to pull this off. I'll kick in a $1000 when you get over $100,000


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

CaptBobBryant said:


> I appreciate your concern and can only state that:
> We are not in the business of selling memberships, t-shirts, decals, or banquets.
> We accept donations and use that money to perform the task of:
> Changing the law that has driven us off the water, supporting those elected folks who stand with us, and try to get the folks who have stood on the sidelines for so long to stop waiting for the next shoe to drop.
> ...


 well said, just more the reason to go after your local politicians. They all say they want the money (taxes)..... sssssooooo why not make them fight the fight with their own government? The only winner over the next few years (or ever) will be the lawyers.... IMO

what's that last phrase "Or we will all be showing what real civil disobedience looks like." mean? you got my attention with this... please explain...


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## CaptBobBryant (May 16, 2014)

Realtor said:


> well said, just more the reason to go after your local politicians. They all say they want the money (taxes)..... sssssooooo why not make them fight the fight with their own government? The only winner over the next few years (or ever) will be the lawyers.... IMO
> 
> what's that last phrase "Or we will all be showing what real civil disobedience looks like." mean? you got my attention with this... please explain...


 
It means that at the end of it all...there is no way that we as a group will remain silent and/or off the water...

There is talk not just here but through out the country of folks tired of this "dog and pony" show...

I mean really...what is the definition of overfishing?
Is it that a group has fished so hard and so much that the fish are in trouble, or is it that an estimated group has fished beyond some arbitrarily set limit.

To me if the fish is rebuilding, then overfishing can not be occurring; RIGHT?

When the rules are counter to the reality...you can expect folks to just ignore them if efforts to change them do not work (civil disobedience) and when folks start making a show of their noncompliance....there will be a $H1T storm.


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## CaptBobBryant (May 16, 2014)

*I will try*

To come on here every few days...

Social Media is our friend and a tool we can use to coordinate a backlash like NMFS has never seen.

We have to make a conscious effort to not play their game any longer...

NMFS gives us 9 days....we should say thanks but no thanks...this year I think we will take it off...

Another power we can wield is DATA; if we can decide as a unified group to stop giving them the ammo then they can't short us anymore.

Think about that and what it would look like if NMFS were called before congress and had to explain that due to a lack of current data, they have had to backfill with prior years (yes they do that).

When something happens to interrupt their flow of information (season closures, hurricanes, oil spills, red tides) they make up for the days they can not go and get data by using prior years.

I am an actuary by trade, I do data collection and analysis for the insurance industry and what I see NMFS do appalls me and it should appall you as well.

Keep up the good fight...


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

CaptBobBryant said:


> It means that at the end of it all...there is no way that we as a group will remain silent and/or off the water...
> 
> There is talk not just here but through out the country of folks tired of this "dog and pony" show...
> 
> ...


 Oh, I thought you were thinking about organizing a demonstration from Key West FL to Brownsville TX, a "Drag your boat around your local town and tie up traffic because you aren't allowed to fish for Snapper because of flawed data" day. 

not being a smart a$$, just this has been a topic on here for a long, long time. Ill help, if I can, but throwing $$ to a lawyer, well, its just that "throwing $$$$$ to a lawyer." and you thought the Gulf was deep in a few places..... Thanks Bob! Welcome to the PFF!


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## CaptBobBryant (May 16, 2014)

Realtor said:


> Oh, I thought you were thinking about organizing a demonstration from Key West FL to Brownsville TX, a "Drag your boat around your local town and tie up traffic because you aren't allowed to fish for Snapper because of flawed data" day.
> 
> not being a smart a$$, just this has been a topic on here for a long, long time. Ill help, if I can, but throwing $$ to a lawyer, well, its just that "throwing $$$$$ to a lawyer." and you thought the Gulf was deep in a few places..... Thanks Bob! Welcome to the PFF!


There will be a time to make a show of force....closer to election time....and with real impact.....

Like instead of towing boats....having them sit on the mouths of passes, can't go fishing for red snapper might as well pull fish off the bridges at the pass....oh I am sorry was I in your way....

Stuff like that...

Some stuff we can't talk about on public forums either....

I will ask that those who do fish this year....KEEP YOU PICTURES OFF OF SOCIAL MEDIA......


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

CaptBobBryant said:


> There will be a time to make a show of force....closer to election time....and with real impact.....
> 
> Like instead of towing boats....having them sit on the mouths of passes, can't go fishing for red snapper might as well pull fish off the bridges at the pass....oh I am sorry was I in your way.... good idea, lets all meet in the loop current, we can sit there for an hour and demonstrate to each other... What would this do???? if your sitting in the "Pass" the only people your getting the way of is other fishermen and maritime traffic. get in the way of the masses of people (Voters), that's when you will see people pay attention. Not meeting out in the water where most people don't care about in the first place. out of site, out of mind.... 2 cents...
> 
> ...


 Not fighting you, but don't you think the time to show force is when the problem exists in this case, during snapper season? (or when there "should" be a snapper season.... not talking about a Sunday afternoon either) In November (election time, you'll get your lip service.... right?) the people (voters) are going to ask what are they complaining about, fishing season is over.... again Bob, not fighting you, trust me. I am NOT fighting you or this! I am just upset that we are at this point and the government and politicians do not even know we are upset. Unless I'm the one living under the rock....


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## tbaxl (Mar 13, 2013)

CaptBobBryant said:


> There will be a time to make a show of force....closer to election time....and with real impact.....
> 
> Like instead of towing boats....having them sit on the mouths of passes, can't go fishing for red snapper might as well pull fish off the bridges at the pass....oh I am sorry was I in your way....
> 
> ...


Could not agree more about keeping pictures off the net. Far too many "sportsmen" like to post of their exploits. A picture can be worth a thousand words to the EDF when it comes to fund raising so keep that in mind next time you want to show the world how great you are a fishing, use common sense. Also, we had some pictures posted of hundreds of dead snapper floating by some rigs and the poster gave credit to some market boats in the area. If you ever run across that take pictures and picts of the offending boat, that is the smoking guy, black eye or whatever you want to call it that can shut the market fishery down when culling make the front page.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I was seven years old when woodstock was held. Maybe this is our time for "Revolution"?

In any case, back in the day Grace Slick was eye candy - at least to me.


Pick up the cry
Hey now it's time for you and me
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Come on now we're marching to the sea
Got a revolution Got to revolution


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## Fish N Tales (Jun 14, 2012)

Count me in as well, know plenty of others not on here that would pitch in also


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## badonskybuccaneers (Aug 19, 2013)

Well, any real movement has to have a starting place. And most of the time it either starts in the political office or an attorneys office- right? Large Scale Demonstrations might be a good idea to get public attention, but how far will they really get us? ...and how long will they be remembered?
Get an organization designed for this movement or one willing to back it whole heartily, press conferences and meetings with our representatives and conservation offices...
Just my $.02


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*There is a trend of State Attonrney general's suing NOAA. Would think a potential premise for the suit in Florida could be loss of recreational fishing revenue generated from businesses that support rec fisherman. Anyone know an in to Florida's Attorney General?*

*Coakley files lawsuit over fishing cuts *




*By Meghan E. Irons*


Accusing the federal government of shoddy science and indifference to the plight of Massachusetts fishing families, Attorney General Martha Coakley sued the National Oceanic and Atmospheric ­Administration Thursday over its attempt to limit this year’s catch on cod and other fish. 
Her office called restrictions that slashed limits by 78 percent of 2012’s quota Draconian. The suit was filed in US District Court.


“The federal government has failed in its responsibility in considering the devastating economic impact of their regulations on our fishing families,’’ said Coakley, flanked by lawmakers and fishermen at Boston’s Fish Pier. “NOAA’s regulations are essentially a death penalty on the fishing industry of Massachusetts as we know it.”
NOAA officials acknowledged Thursday that the quota reductions are drastic but said they are essential to rebuilding severely depleted groundfish stocks and preventing overfishing among populations that have been alarmingly slow to recover.

The federal government targeted 13 species, and substantial reductions were also made for Gulf of Maine haddock, Georges Bank yellowtail flounder, and American plaice. The officials said the agency is increasing catch limits on stocks such as redfish, pollock, and white hake.
“We know that the quota cuts this year for groundfish fishermen for several key stocks, including cod, are ­severe,’’ said John Bullard, northeast region administrator for NOAA Fisheries. “However, given the poor condition of these stocks and the phased approach we took to reducing fishing effort to help ease the economic impacts on fishermen in 2012, the cuts are necessary.”
Coakely said that the new restrictions are grounded in flawed science and that the agency had used antiquated and unfounded methods to ­assess fish populations.


Scientists held much hope for Gulf of Maine cod after a 2008 assessment appeared to show that the population was thriving and would steadily ­rebuild. But those hopes were dashed after a 2011 assessment showed a depleted stock, said Thomas Nies, who heads the New England Fishery Management Council.
Scientists spent last year conducting another full assess­ment at the request of the fishing industry to determine why the numbers were off. They concluded that the bleak 2011 figures were accurate, Nies said.
Still, this year’s drastic cuts have enraged the ­industry. Addressing Thursday’s press conference, US Representative Stephen F. Lynch slammed the federal government, calling its ­approach in addressing the fishing stock one-sided, arrogant, and self-righteous. 
“We understand there is a need to manage fish stock and to manage our way back to a healthier fishing environment,’’ Lynch said. “However, these regulations that we see will simply put the fishing ­industry out of business.”
The lawsuit names the New England Fishery Management Council, which advises NOAA and which voted on the new limits in January.
Cod is a New England staple, popular on the dinner ­table and a big seller for fishermen.
“It’s the king of all groundfish,’’ said Angela Sanfilippo of Massachusetts Fishing Partnership. ”People demand it.”
But the government’s effort to manage fishing stock has forced fishermen to face harsh cuts that have jeopardized their livelihoods and put them on the brink of hardship.
“We went from 11 boats three years ago, but now we are down to four,’’ said Mike Walsh of Stoughton, who has been a fisherman for 33 years. “And that was to make it through the last set of regulations. That’s how many boats that had to go away.”
Tory Bramante, the owner of the fishing vessel America, said local fishermen have felt betrayed by past government assurances that restrictions over more than a decade would lead to healthy groundfish populations by now.
“People look at us and say that we are fishermen and we can take it, but these are drastic cuts that we’ve already taken on over the past 15 years,’’ he said. “They keep coming and coming.” 
Marjorie Mooney-Seus, spokeswoman for NOAA Fisheries, said that while the quota reduction is bad, the limits are not as harsh as they seem. She said that fishermen caught ­only 60 percent of their quota for Gulf of Maine cod last year.
Roughly 6,605 metric tons of Georges Bank cod were caught in 2012, compared with 1,807 metric tons in 2013, she said. That represents 35.2 percent of fishermen’s quota, or 1,622.9 metric tons, she added.
Coakley's complaint alleges that NOAA violated three ­national standards governing the fishing industry, including failing to allow fishermen to catch an optimum yield, failing to use the best scientific infor­mation available, and failing to consider the economic impact of a major ­reduction in allotment.
Joe Orlando — a Gloucester fisherman and owner of the Padre Pio, a 65-foot trawler vessel — said fishing has been a financial anchor for his family. When the government began imposing limits, he took it in stride, hoping that his business would still be viable.
Now he is not too sure, he said. “Just three years ago, I had the ability to catch 100,000 pounds of Gulf of Maine cod,” he said at the press conference. “Because of these cuts, I’m only allowed 16,000.”
He worries about the bills, his boat, his family, and the ­industry he loves. “My livelihood has been cut before my eyes because of these changes,’’ he said. “With these reductions, I can’t even afford to properly maintain my boat. . . . I am in financial ruin.”
_Meghan Irons can be reached at [email protected]. _


_--------------------------_
_*NH Joins Fishery Lawsuit Against NOAA*

By linked source on September 20th, 2013 







Photo courtesy NOAA.

*The Commonwealth of Massachusetts now has company in its suit against NOAA.*

The state attorney general’s lawsuit, which claims NOAA — in violation of the Magnuson Stevens Act — disregarded the devastating economic impact on fishing communities such as Gloucester generated by its staggering cuts in catch limits, now includes the state of New Hampshire as a co-plaintiff.
New Hampshire last week filed a motion seeking “permissive intervention” in U.S. District Court in Boston primarily to protect the interests of the state’s “unique small-boat fisheries industry that is not adequately represented by any other party or intervener.”

_


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

There is also a factor that I don't see being taken into consideration. 

NOAA is a federal agency which means that they get their funding through congressional appropriations. Their job is to collect data and use that data to regulate fisheries (among other things). They aren't necessarily lazy, they would love to get out and collect more data but are limited by their budget and the resources they have at their disposal. When they go to congress for their budget appropriation, they pretty much have to face the fact that congress has a lot higher priorities than counting fish and their budget request is going to get whittled down to bare bones. 

Now, if they get sued and are under a court order to do their job, they can go to congress and say "Hey, the court order says we have to implement a system to count fish, and we estimate that it will cost $XXXX to comply with that order." Armed with that, congress will have to give their budget request a higher priority.

Basically this is what the commercial side has already done with their lawsuit. Cutting the recreational season was just NOAA's way of taking up the slack in their budget while still being able to comply with the court order in that case. If they get sued from the recreational side, there is no where left to turn. They would be forced to obtain reliable data and they would have to have the budget appropriation necessary to do that.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> *There is a trend of State Attonrney general's suing NOAA. Would think a potential premise for the suit in Florida could be loss of recreational fishing revenue generated from businesses that support rec fisherman. Anyone know an in to Florida's Attorney General?*


According to the video on the red snapper over population, there are some economic numbers thrown out there that are considerable; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLK3ql1-q0I

In 2006, Alabama communities enjoyed about $630 million in revenues from people going out to catch red snapper. By 2009, that number had dropped about 24% ($151.2 million). Assuming that reduction remained constant, that means Alabama communities alone have suffered almost $1 BILLION in damages due to the unnecessary draconian federal regulations. Remember, this is just for an area that comprises about 3% of the Gulf of Mexico coastline.

Extrapolate that across the Gulf, and this class action suit could be several BILLION DOLLARS due to this obvious scam to steal our fish.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## Comfortably Numb (Oct 1, 2007)

Local businesses affected by this BS are the ones that should be approached. Imagine the $$$ lost by tackle shops, marine supply, and fuel stations due to these ridiculous seasons. It would be worth their investment if there is a likely positive result. I know I fish and spend much less than I once did at this sport.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

CaptBobBryant said:


>



I _like_ that! Where can I buy one of those? 

Think I'll park my old boat out by the pass the day after Federal snapper season closes & wave it around. An army of one! Somebody alert the media. (_can you get arrested for burning an effigy at Fort Mcree?)_


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## Deadreckoning (Oct 8, 2012)

*Why hire an attorney*

Rather than hire an attorney why not file suit without one. Most clerks office will walk you thru the filing process. If you are filing against the feds you may be required to request a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge but that may actually put you in contact with someone that can answer some procedural questions. 
While I value the knowledge of an attorney the business of law has done a great job of making us all believe they are mandatory to appear in court. In most cases filing requires nothing more than paying fees and filling out some forms. 
Certainly a better option than running out of money before you even get started. Just my .02.


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## Angler721 (Jul 20, 2012)

Burnt Drag said:


> Who amoung us would be willing to contribute to a legal fund to hire a legal firm to challenge the NMFS/Gulf Council and Magusen Stevens Act?
> 
> I keep hearing, "Let's all Call our Congressman"... didn't help.
> "Let's go to Washington and make our voice heard." Crickets
> ...






 




 





 

I'm all for filing a federal lawsuit but explain to me what statues of the MSA has been violated and by whom? If you know of any laws being violated and you know who violated the law why not take it to the next legal level.


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## Angler721 (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm all for filing a federal lawsuit but explain to me what statues of the MSA has been violated and by whom? If you know of any laws being violated and you know who violated the law why not take it to the next legal level.


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## Angler721 (Jul 20, 2012)

Deadreckoning said:


> Rather than hire an attorney why not file suit without one. Most clerks office will walk you thru the filing process. If you are filing against the feds you may be required to request a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge but that may actually put you in contact with someone that can answer some procedural questions.
> While I value the knowledge of an attorney the business of law has done a great job of making us all believe they are mandatory to appear in court. In most cases filing requires nothing more than paying fees and filling out some forms.
> Certainly a better option than running out of money before you even get started. Just my .02.



 

I'm in favor of filing a lawsuit ourselves, if we loose it will be cheaper. someone told me it would cost about $1000.00 to file one. Does anyone have proof that there is  a connection between NOAA and the EDF.


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## 29gallk (Dec 5, 2013)

Count me in. RedSnapper today the rest to follow!


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

Posted from the other thread:
We have a lot of good information and suggestions here. We also have some very smart and knowledgeable people. The last ingredient that we have is a willingness to work together and solve a critical problem. With everything that we have, I see this coming together and a resolution with a positive outcome for rec fishermen. I offered to start a website...there is already one in place and thanks for the link Mr. Hilton. There is an organization in place also. I suggest that we all look this over very carefully and start giving input to the people already in place. Let's get this thing done...I know the commercials have the backing of the seafood eating establishments, fish mongers, wholesale seafood,...but they are not beyond getting hurt in their business by us not supporting them. Why should I go to and by a snapper dinner so the owner can support a commercial interest and keep me further away from the water....WITH MY MONEY!! I'll take that money and support OUR alliance with it....feed my own face....and bring myself back into the GOM fishing like I used to. I very rarely jump on a band wagon but when I do my brothers and sisters, it's for a worthy cause where not only my interest is as stake...but all the rest of us share in this. We should all be good stewards of our environment....the feds have abused it and continue restricting us from what good we can accomplish on our own by accepting bad data and the devils money to further their cause and fatten their pockets. Get informed of what exists and what is in place now. Let’s all do our homework on this and come to a consensus on what has already been started, join up if we agree, and become part of this movement for this organization and the betterment of our natural resources.


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## Redtracker (Dec 28, 2011)

let's get Bill O'Reilly involved....


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Red Snapper Rebellion

This looks like an interesting event over in Bay County.


https://www.facebook.com/events/327463114067514/?ref=3&ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*lawsuit*

provided you hire an attorney I am in for a c-note


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

First off to collect money for an endeavor like this you first have to establish a Non Profit organization (lots of paper work), have a board of directors, State and Federal audits, file tax paperwork claiming exemption as a Non Profit organization. This doesn't include infrastructure (physical address/office etc) the list goes on and on. It's not easy and nobody here is going to shoulder the time, effort and cost of doing this. Now if you're from a wealthy family (that means your family pays the rich people and you don't even have a checking account because someone on your staff handles finances for you) pony up and make it happen.

How this is going to eventually be resolved is that it will turn into a showdown between the Gulf Coast states and the Federal Government. The recreational community is going to over fish Red Snapper this year and there is no doubt about it because of the actions taken by the Gulf Coast States. The commercial guys won't poke the states in the eye with a sharp stick lawsuit because next year their license won't be renewed or it will go up so high in price that they will fold like a house of cards. 

The Gulf Coast States are going to have to battle it out with the Federal Government, NOAA and the evil Department of Commerce because the losses to the states revenues are in the billions of dollars. All the money not being spent by locals and tourists alike is the straw that will break this camels back. Odds are right about now those nit wits that filed these suits in the first place are starting to think, "Dang that looked better on paper".

Our best bet is to use our numbers where they will count the most, at the voting booth. If we want to organize something, what we do is send out a message to our politicians explaining that we want a fair system of regulating our fisheries. We want everyone to account for their catches and an end to the free give away of public resources. The politicians who pick up that banner and bring about the change needed will have millions of votes and billions of dollars if we all just threw $10.00 onto their campaign funds. If we toss $100.00 into their hats they might even be our friends.

Bottom line is that a deal will have to be cut between the feds and state governments, we need to make sure it's "our" guys cutting the deal not "theirs".


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## Alabamaspot (Apr 25, 2013)

*Im in*

We will need to find a better to get the group together. Maybe set a time and have a get together / discussion


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm in favor of having a meeting to discuss the matter and I'm in for $500.00 to hire an attorney, but I will not waste a dime on an attorney unless the attorney is an anti-establishment attorney with a track record.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Just so you can put your contribution into perspective, call up any three leading law offices in Pensacola or any major city and ask them for a ballpark figure on what it would cost to file a suit against the US Federal Government and what the potential costs would be thru settlement in court. Then you will understand why these commercial fishermen are getting their money from the EDF and PEW to file suit against the American recreational angler and NOAA. They are not spending their own money so they think it is a win win situation but it's not. The EDF and PEW will turn on the commercial fishing industry the day after the American tradition of recreational fishing is laid in it's grave.


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## fishn4real (Sep 28, 2007)

Deadreckoning said:


> Rather than hire an attorney why not file suit without one. Most clerks office will walk you thru the filing process. If you are filing against the feds you may be required to request a hearing before an Administrative Law Judge but that may actually put you in contact with someone that can answer some procedural questions.
> While I value the knowledge of an attorney the business of law has done a great job of making us all believe they are mandatory to appear in court. In most cases filing requires nothing more than paying fees and filling out some forms.
> Certainly a better option than running out of money before you even get started. Just my .02.


Because, there are Rules of Court that must be followed. Absolutely, "anyone" can file a suit without legal assistance. The first thing that happens is a Motion to Dismiss by the opposition; there is a hearing, and the Judge will look at the form of the suit, the grounds, and determine if it is within the boundaries of the Rules, and if not..."Dismissed", if it is in proper form then the Judge will look as the individual's standing to sue, grounds, damages etc, and then determine if there is cause to let the suit move forward. A qualified attorney would know all of this, know how to argue the case and support it with law.

Kim - not saying you are totally wrong on establishing a non-profit,.. but you are 99% wrong. Setting up a non-profit is one of the easiest things to do. Secretary of state has standard forms with fill-in the blanks. Last one I did for the Redfish association cost, I think $75 filing fee. Once the organization is established, the IRS will have another form to determine its tax-exempt status. Easy, easy, easy.

Has anyone given any thought to the fact that Red Snapper being sold in grocery stores and restaurants just might have some bearing on a "shortage" of red snapper? Why is wild duck not sold in grocery stores or restaurants? What about wild venison, wild quail or pheasant? Why is wild Red Snapper any different from any of the above?


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

If it's that easy do it and I'll throw my $100.00 into the pot too! Meanwhile I'm going fishing , have a great weekend.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Kim,
N.A.R.A. is a non-profit formed for this very purpose.
Tom

http://www.freedom2fish.org/news.html


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*formation*

you can do it on sunbiz.com and it will provide a link to get the IRS tax exempt stuff you can do it from a smart phone in about 10 minutes


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## PoolBoy074 (May 2, 2012)

Ok I will bite guys.... Why are we so mad at the commercial guys? They are very organized and very funded.... They only threw the trump card on us after our best friend "the gulf council" wanted opinions on future tac being 75 % recs and 25 % commercial.... Yes the gulf council that was established to help the fisheries some how turned out to be our worst enemy....  lol they r hacks and for good measure... Screw Crabtree and the rest of the government mouchers.... So the council pushed us to say "hell ya let's get 75 % of the next expansion of the tac.... Well if you make a living fishing what else would you do.... Hire a attorney and sue the heck out of us rec guys for no accountability.... Let's face it guys... The commercial guys have 99 percent accountability on their ARS catch.... We have nothing.... I am not a commercial guy and not a charter guy... I'm just a rec fisherman.... But I think the chase after the smack boats is a lost cause.... So if we are gonna sue... What exactly and who do we sue? Do we sue for the rigs and private/public reefs not being counted as habitat.?? But taken away from our tac when we catch?? Me and a buddy have put out several permitted reefs over the last 3 years for us to harvest ARS.... Shouldn't those be "our" fish then??? Or Do we sue the Bama charter association for their back room deal here in BAMA for this pilot program? Do we sue the Feds for lost wages to charter and recs and stores, rentals, gear, etc.?? On another site we discussed this in length about 2 yrs ago and a attorney/ avid fisherman looked into it and felt the cost would break all of us suing the Feds.... I really have no idea at what the answer is y'all.... Do we start a public campaign with billboards/ flyers/ etc and reach out to national tv for help??? I really don't know.... I don't have much faith in the politicians that have kinda jumped on this bandwagon... I just feel they are looking for votes.... I really thought the rigs getting blown up would draw national attention but it lost feet after a few months....  sad....
I hope we as recs figure something out..... Cuz our fishery is about dead because of greed and politics.... Just remember anyone that says they are with the government and they are here to help....run Forrest run.... 
The only thing I do believe in is we need to be regional manage by the state.... But BAMA and miss has no balls to stand up to the government like Florida, la, & Texas has done....


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## tbaxl (Mar 13, 2013)

Yes the market boats have accountability but apparently, if you read the paper, many tend to skirt the law and sell under the counter. Does this go against their quota? How about a lawsuit over poor guesstimates by the NMFS? This is The USA and here you can file suit over anything.


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## badonskybuccaneers (Aug 19, 2013)

tbaxl said:


> Yes the market boats have accountability but apparently, if you read the paper, many tend to skirt the law and sell under the counter. Does this go against their quota? How about a lawsuit over poor guesstimates by the NMFS? This is The USA and here you can file suit over anything.


I agree- but I don't think we'll be doing much good by attacking the commercial guys- although good points have been made, especially if the fish "were" endangered like redfish were many moons ago and all commercial fishing of them were cut out.
....I thouht the bigger deal was how inaccurate the fish population guessers (NMFS) are especially due to the fact they are basing it on bare bottom statistics and apparently haven't taken into account ALL the artificial reef structures dumped into the gulf (public and private) to the point that the ARS are the dominant reef dwellers to the point I have a hard time catching any other species....
I'm sure this has been mentioned before.
I don't want to go out and load my boat with red snapper every day all year- but I feel more inclined to say If I go fishing and we decide to stop at a spot just to fish and we catch a couple mingos and a couple red snapper, we should be able to keep them??? It's just not like the old days anymore boys. My bigger fear is that this ajenda the government has to eventually make all gulf fishing "catch and release"...... I have grandkids (babies right now) I would like to take out to catch fish and keep and eat. ????
I always wanted to be able to get in my boat and go out and relax and fish, now we have to fight for a right to keep a fish and take it home for dinner? I'm not a real big red snapper or bottom fisher- But, my family likes fishing and if I can't find any mackerel, tuna, or mahi to harrass, I can always stop on some numbers and let them bend a rod on some snapper
My point being- today it's ARS, what will they take tomorrow????

Maybe a meeting of the minds is in order to figure out what we want to do- If it would be an agreed collaborative effort *OR* would we end up knocking heads? I don't want to be included in an organization that ends up making everyone involved looking like a bunch of unorganized idiots?!?!? I think it needs to be a realisticly attainable goal ! Something that will benfit everyone affected in some way. That way we could possibly acquire some additional support from outside organizations.
Just my $.02


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

You need to realize it is in fact the commercial red snapper barons who have ATTACKED US - it is due DIRECTLY to their recent lawsuit that we are facing a 9 day recreational red snapper season while they enjoy 365 day access.

I believe we must unite under a common goal of fighting this in the court room.


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## badonskybuccaneers (Aug 19, 2013)

*Life's too short, lets go fishing!*



Tom Hilton said:


> You need to realize it is in fact the commercial red snapper barons who have ATTACKED US - it is due DIRECTLY to their recent lawsuit that we are facing a 9 day recreational red snapper season while they enjoy 365 day access.
> 
> I believe we must unite under a common goal of fighting this in the court room.


my real point *is *that we need to unite onder a common goal- and choose the fight we can win. Something that will create a movement in the direction we desire. _If this is even possible-_ 
Life's too short for me to waste time complaining on this forum or any other media if it is not going to yeild me some progress. I like to fish, it is my means of enjoyment, and much of my family. I didn't spend thousands of dollars on boat and equipment to just putter around. 

I will contribute to an organization that I think has a realistic goal and the means to accomplish it. I know others have looked at this with a serious determination to do something- but it does look like a rather large "mountain".

So in refrence to my origional pedge- I'm in if it looks like there is a massive collaborative effort with an attainable goal. It's going to take a lot.... and for the sake of my children and grandchildren, I hope we can do something.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Mac1528 said:


> What's the name of this organization going to be? I would be willing to try and set us up a free wix website that can accept donations. Need to get that treasurer going too!
> 
> Sent using tapatalk[/QUOT
> 
> ...


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

http://nonprofit.about.com/od/gettingstarted/tp/tipsstartup.htm

it will take a lot more than just a website to collect donations. 

A 501(c)(3) nonprofit cannot be operated for anyone's private benefit, support or oppose a political party or candidates for office, or have as its mission the achievement of something that is only possible by passing some kind of legislation.


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

Hey Les, welcome up to the forum! Wix is a provider of free websites. Unfortunately it did not generate much interest back in May when we were discussing this....so I just let it go by the wayside. 
Glad to have you on board the forum. Lots of good info on here from a lot of fishing smart folks. So...fasten your seat belt, get your feet wet and enjoy the ride.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Kim said:


> http://nonprofit.about.com/od/gettingstarted/tp/tipsstartup.htm
> 
> it will take a lot more than just a website to collect donations.
> 
> A 501(c)(3) nonprofit cannot be operated for anyone's private benefit, support or oppose a political party or candidates for office, or have as its mission the achievement of something that is only possible by passing some kind of legislation.



Lk reply post Nov. 4, 2014


Kim, in all due respect, in my opinion a 501 wont work for us, it's a trade off, a financial trap to restrict our actions . We need our freedom, I believe we need to bite the bullet. Find us a CPA stay legal and pay what taxes are dues.


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## amarcafina (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm in


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## 153 Large fish (Nov 30, 2013)

Heres a thought...my family law lawyer charged me $79 for 1.5 minutes on the fone...good luck!


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## scott44 (Aug 17, 2013)

153 Large fish said:


> Heres a thought...my family law lawyer charged me $79 for 1.5 minutes on the fone...good luck!


Damn!


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Exactly what is everyone getting "in" to? Tom Hilton and Captain Bob both mentioned http://www.freedom2fish.org/news.html which is aligned with what we seek. Until something is organized with clear and specific objectives meeting the needs and desires of the contributors, a plan of actions, and detailed milestones for tracking, along with financial oversight, means of collecting dues, means of soliciting sponsors to finance the bulk of it as well as meeting all other state and federal requirements, you don't have an organization, objectives, a plan, means of tracking the plan, means of putting the plan into action. All you have is some people saying "I'm in" and "pledging" money or "services". I hope that I'm wrong but it sure looks like a recipe for disappointment as it stands.

A few weeks back I mentioned the elections and the potential of using our votes to sway the elections and vote people in that would be favorable to working with us towards our objectives. That was the day Amendment 40 was passed, on the thread about Amendment 40. Nobody paid attention to that because PFF members sure didn't block vote for the same candidates that would support us. So if you didn't vote, or voted party line you wasted a golden opportunity. Recreational anglers fresh and salt water could vote as a block and put whoever they voted for into office. Too late to do anything about it now except wait for the next elections and hope that the recreational anglers can organize and put the right people into our elected offices. Our votes guaranteed as a block to candidates is something they wish they could buy. We can give them an election if they are in our corner. 

You need a real plan with objectives, actions to be taken and milestones to keep it all on track (like the freedom 2 fish organization). Then you should implement the actions that would make it legal with the state and federal governments, solicit memberships, dues, donations, sponsors, develop means of advertising to increase sponsor and donation support, have the board of directors and the chair in place to keep it moving smooth and a means of keeping members, sponsors and donors informed of the progress being made. Right now if some kind soul plunked down ten million dollars and said "I'm in", none of you have any idea of what to do next or a plan to put it into motion.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Good point on the voting block Kim. By the way florida recreational fisherman's biggest advocate in terms of amending the Magnusson Stevens act, congressman Steve Sutherland whose district is over toward Panama city is about to lose his bid for reelection by around 2000 votes...


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

The enviros went after him. http://www.oceanchampions.org/oc-currents.php?id=your-choice-for-ocean-enemy-1-is


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## 153 Large fish (Nov 30, 2013)

scott44 said:


> Damn!


Yes....lawyers are real good at sucking up your $....so everyone on pff combined would barely be able to fund lunch for the law group that would handle this...


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## scott44 (Aug 17, 2013)

153 Large fish said:


> Yes....lawyers are real good at sucking up your $....so everyone on pff combined would barely be able to fund lunch for the law group that would handle this...


I couldn't even afford to tell them the story....


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

153 Large fish said:


> Yes....lawyers are real good at sucking up your $....so everyone on pff combined would barely be able to fund lunch for the law group that would handle this...


Unless, that is they were people who believed in and were committed to winning. Some lawyers are slime... some are wonderful advocates of justice.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

$500,000 is the cost to see a suit from beginning to end.


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## Five Prongs Of Fury (Apr 15, 2008)

markw4321 said:


> The enviros went after him. http://www.oceanchampions.org/oc-currents.php?id=your-choice-for-ocean-enemy-1-is


I wish I wouldn't have even clicked the link.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

LopeAlong said:


> $500,000 is the cost to see a suit from beginning to end.




Have you contacted an attorney. What forum and what cause of action will be litigated for $500k


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Would someone please explain to me, without getting mad, the main complaint about MSA.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Basically MSA is being utilized as a tool by the commercial and CFH sectors to restrict the recreational anglers access to public resources while maintaining/gaining their privatized gift of public resources, namely the fish. Other than that there is a definite shortage of hard science thrown into the mix. If you had to ask that question you are either an outlaw fisherman or you haven't fished offshore for the past few years.

Just look up Red Snapper regulation for the last ten years and the various battles waged on privatization of the allowable catch and the continual dwindling of the bag and season limits. It's a real sticky wicket as they say.


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## Bean Counter (Nov 15, 2010)

The MSA requires reliable data be used in determining seasons and population figures. NOAA has replaced this legal requirement with the term "best available science" which, from what I understand, is nothing more than a broken statistical analysis of we think think this many people fish, we think this is how much they catch and we guess this is how many of this type of fish were in the gulf to begin with. It has nothing to do with reliable data as mandated in the act and has been required by Congress. Further more various entities have through the years, most recently Alabama, have done hard data collections which have been largely disregarded by NOAA.


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## Bean Counter (Nov 15, 2010)

Early on in this thread someone mentioned forming a non-profit organization. There is a difference in a Not-for-profit-corporation (a legal entity in the State of Florida) and a non-profit organization (recognized by the IRS). A not-for-profit-corporation is easy, costs less than $150 to set up and takes about 5 minutes to do. A non-profit (exempt organization) requires a 1024 (Code section 501 (c) organization) or a 1023 (code section 501(c)(3) the best but may not be available). They are not difficult to set up but are time consuming. Form 1024 is 26 pages long, but don't worry, with the required attachments it really works out to be about 150 pages. If someone wanted to do this I am willing to help. Notice I said help not do. The last time I had a client pay a CPA firm (I refuse to do these in practice anymore) to set up an organization they paid $4,000 and that was about 7 years ago.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

I'm a member and on the board of advisors for the Charter Fishermans Association. A non-profit group that is comprise of CFH operators across the Gulf. We looked into litigation quickly after we learned that the Gulf States were stealing the entire county's access to the fishery. $500,000 is what was spent on the Guindon v, Pritzer case and what was quoted to run on the at hand issue. I don't believe a good sumariton lawyer would be able to do that much good on an issue as large as this. Now on the other hand if say like CCA, FRA and RFA all combined their resources then they have a good chance to spend a lot of money to lose a lawsuit.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

LopeAlong said:


> I'm a member and on the board of advisors for the Charter Fishermans Association. A non-profit group that is comprise of CFH operators across the Gulf. We looked into litigation quickly after we learned that the Gulf States were stealing the entire county's access to the fishery. $500,000 is what was spent on the Guindon v, Pritzer case and what was quoted to run on the at hand issue. I don't believe a good sumariton lawyer would be able to do that much good on an issue as large as this. Now on the other hand if say like CCA, FRA and RFA all combined their resources then they have a good chance to spend a lot of money to lose a lawsuit.


The CFA coat-tailed on a lawsuit a couple of years ago by Texas and Louisiana who were fighting for more fishing access for all, and they won. Now, CFA is saying these same states are stealing what already are guaranteed to them by the US Constitution? 

Yeah, right.


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## Lyin Too (Aug 31, 2009)

Instead of all paying $100 to hire a lawyer that most of us think will probably "take the money and run" lets put that money in a pool and pay fines with it. We set a date to snapper fish and all of us go out and return at the same time and the few who get caught use that money to pay the fines. They cant catch us all. Read up on the history of alcohol prohibition. It worked then, it'll work now. I'm in for a hunnerd!


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

Lyin Too said:


> Instead of all paying $100 to hire a lawyer that most of us think will probably "take the money and run" lets put that money in a pool and pay fines with it. We set a date to snapper fish and all of us go out and return at the same time and the few who get caught use that money to pay the fines. They cant catch us all. Read up on the history of alcohol prohibition. It worked then, it'll work now. I'm in for a hunnerd!


Yea...but I have to research what class of crime it is before hand... I don't want to lose my chl over it if I'm the one who's gonna get caught!


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Kim said:


> Basically MSA is being utilized as a tool by the commercial and CFH sectors to restrict the recreational anglers access to public resources while maintaining/gaining their privatized gift of public resources, namely the fish. Other than that there is a definite shortage of hard science thrown into the mix. If you had to ask that question you are either an outlaw fisherman or you haven't fished offshore for the past few years.
> 
> Just look up Red Snapper regulation for the last ten years and the various battles waged on privatization of the allowable catch and the continual dwindling of the bag and season limits. It's a real sticky wicket as they say.



thanks very informative, Les


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

LopeAlong said:


> I'm a member and on the board of advisors for the Charter Fishermans Association. A non-profit group that is comprise of CFH operators across the Gulf. We looked into litigation quickly after we learned that the Gulf States were stealing the entire county's access to the fishery. $500,000 is what was spent on the Guindon v, Pritzer case and what was quoted to run on the at hand issue. I don't believe a good sumariton lawyer would be able to do that much good on an issue as large as this. Now on the other hand if say like CCA, FRA and RFA all combined their resources then they have a good chance to spend a lot of money to lose a lawsuit.



 

Is this post in response to my post to you.  
 

First, I would like to thank you for some very informative information. I didn't know you belonged to the Charter Fisherman's Association much less that you were on the advisory board, impressive, good luck.  
 

I may have met you, at a work shop sponsored by FWC. I did meet a women that was connected to some charter association first in Pensacola and then at the workshop in Destin what's strange, when we saw each other we felt we knew each other and couldn't recall from where. If she belongs to CFA, tell her Les said hello. 
 

I feel honored, that CFA would spend $500k in legal expense to cut my snapper season to nine days. In lite of the fact that CFH and Head boats are legally commercial vessels which provide a living to their owners, servants employees ect. They are subject to federal income tax and other taxes just any other business. My wife and I were in business we had to have a permit to do business, our business was required to pay federal income tax, city tax, county tax, some kind of tax on all of our office equipment, we were required to have commercial insurance, I believe we had to pay some of the ss taxes on our employees. We almost went broke paying our CPA he was making more money than we were..  
 

I believe the $500k would have been best spent on litigation proving that CFH and head boats should be in the commercial sector. Would CFA be willing to spend $100k to 200k in legal expense in litigation to attempt (good faith litigation but no guarantee to win) to be put in the commercial sector. 
 

If CFA spent $500k on the DC case, I offering you a real deal for $100K to 200K, it's even better for you'll than Amendment 40 and everybody will be happy. Please run my offer by your advisory board and let me know, one way or another, asap need to get on it.
 


Thank for your time, Les


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Lyin Too said:


> Instead of all paying $100 to hire a lawyer that most of us think will probably "take the money and run" lets put that money in a pool and pay fines with it. We set a date to snapper fish and all of us go out and return at the same time and the few who get caught use that money to pay the fines. They cant catch us all. Read up on the history of alcohol prohibition. It worked then, it'll work now. I'm in for a hunnerd!



Some good advise, don't even thing about that remedy. More likely than not you or someone else would loose every thing you own. Les


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Kim said:


> Basically MSA is being utilized as a tool by the commercial and CFH sectors to restrict the recreational anglers access to public resources while maintaining/gaining their privatized gift of public resources, namely the fish. Other than that there is a definite shortage of hard science thrown into the mix. If you had to ask that question you are either an outlaw fisherman or you haven't fished offshore for the past few years.
> 
> Just look up Red Snapper regulation for the last ten years and the various battles waged on privatization of the allowable catch and the continual dwindling of the bag and season limits. It's a real sticky wicket as they say.



 

Thank you for your post and I really enjoy reading your post, very good. Les .
I reviewed MSA and I didn't have an issue with, what I got out of it was it's not being enforced. I get confused very easy. The following is taken from Mr. Harbison's post which indicates to me that RFA has been attempting to reform MSA for years. I have read some very good post of Mr. Harbison the one I talking is in part, as follows:
”Is there anything that can be done?
Yes, we can reform the federal fisheries law (Magnuson Stevens Act). RFA has been trying to reform this bad law since it was reenacted with all of the environmental extremism back in 2006/2007. RFA has maintained a very clear, straightforward and unwavering message for the past 7 years - the lack of flexibility in Magnuson, with arbitrary rebuilding deadlines, and rigid ACL/AM requirements based on "fatally flawed" data, will ultimately deny anglers access to healthy, sustainable fisheries. Congress must fix the law, and the 'sector separation' and recreational catch share argument will ultimately be rendered moot. Thank Environmental Defense Fund and the Pew Environment Group for helping pit fisherman against fisherman while turning the environmental movement into a complete sham run by corporate interests. RFA

Directly from the desk of Mr. Nick Wiley, FWC director:
"FWC did not support this Amendment" "
In my opinion "fatally flawed" data is not the result of MSA. In your opinion am I correct. FOLA


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Bean Counter said:


> The MSA requires reliable data be used in determining seasons and population figures. NOAA has replaced this legal requirement with the term "best available science" which, from what I understand, is nothing more than a broken statistical analysis of we think think this many people fish, we think this is how much they catch and we guess this is how many of this type of fish were in the gulf to begin with. It has nothing to do with reliable data as mandated in the act and has been required by Congress. Further more various entities have through the years, most recently Alabama, have done hard data collections which have been largely disregarded by NOAA.



If this post is in reply to my post very good. Thank, Les


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

Lyin Too said:


> Instead of all paying $100 to hire a lawyer that most of us think will probably "take the money and run" lets put that money in a pool and pay fines with it. We set a date to snapper fish and all of us go out and return at the same time and the few who get caught use that money to pay the fines. They cant catch us all. Read up on the history of alcohol prohibition. It worked then, it'll work now. I'm in for a hunnerd!


Now that's some outside the box thinking!! It's brilliant and would work the first few times.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

Tom Hilton said:


> The CFA coat-tailed on a lawsuit a couple of years ago by Texas and Louisiana who were fighting for more fishing access for all, and they won. Now, CFA is saying these same states are stealing what already are guaranteed to them by the US Constitution?
> 
> Yeah, right.


There you are Tom Hilton. So nice to hear from you. Well I gotta ask... What happened in Mobile? You were so very confident that you had the votes. Where did it go wrong?


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Good question, and one that will be answered in due time I suppose.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

I'll answer it. We always had it a split and Roy being the tie breaker. The sunset provision swayed an extra vote or 2


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## cold beers (Oct 9, 2007)

Tom Hilton said:


> Kim,
> N.A.R.A. is a non-profit formed for this very purpose.
> Tom
> 
> http://www.freedom2fish.org/news.html


 

Tom 

I assume that since you are endorsing N.A.R.A you believe they are the origination we should all get behind? If so, why do you think so?
I only ask because I don't know, and I am willing to put money up for the fight.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Tom Hilton said:


> The CFA coat-tailed on a lawsuit a couple of years ago by Texas and Louisiana who were fighting for more fishing access for all, and they won. Now, CFA is saying these same states are stealing what already are guaranteed to them by the US Constitution?
> 
> Yeah, right.



Captain Tom, do you have the case citations on these cased. I was looking for some over there. I thought I brushed by a case where Crabtree was the defendant and lost. Would be helpful.


Thanks, Les


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## Gator McKlusky (Oct 8, 2013)

LES KNIGHTEN said:


> Captain Tom, do you have the case citations on these cased. I was looking for some over there. I thought I brushed by a case where Crabtree was the defendant and lost. Would be helpful.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Les


Different case possibly but here is the fairly recent red snapper case filed that the department of commerce lost.

Guindon vs Pritzker. You can download the case here: https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/2014/03/26/guindon_v._pritzker.pdf


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## Gator McKlusky (Oct 8, 2013)

http://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/guindon-amicus-brief-jan_10-2014-filed.pdf



Here is the cherry on top. An amicus brief ("friend of the court") filed by charter fisherman in support of guindon vs pritzker. It may be found per the above link on the environmental defense (edf) fund website, but disregard any thoughts that edf might be funding or assisting commercial fisherman and certain charter captains in such litigation and lobbying activities cause a lot of charter pro sector separators deny this. (sarcasm intended) lmao


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

LopeAlong, when will the advisory board meet and consider my offer. I didn't realize that CFA was Gulf wide. Do you have offices in all of the Gulf States? 


Thanks, Les


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## Gator McKlusky (Oct 8, 2013)

Les 
If you were to file a pro se suit who would be listed as having damages?


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Kim said:


> Just so you can put your contribution into perspective, call up any three leading law offices in Pensacola or any major city and ask them for a ballpark figure on what it would cost to file a suit against the US Federal Government and what the potential costs would be thru settlement in court. Then you will understand why these commercial fishermen are getting their money from the EDF and PEW to file suit against the American recreational angler and NOAA. They are not spending their own money so they think it is a win win situation but it's not. The EDF and PEW will turn on the commercial fishing industry the day after the American tradition of recreational fishing is laid in it's grave.



Kim how do you know that commercial fishman's litigation is been funded by EDF or PEW is this the case in DC where CFA spent $500K.


thanks, LES


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## Gator McKlusky (Oct 8, 2013)

LES KNIGHTEN said:


> Kim how do you know that commercial fishman's litigation is been funded by EDF or PEW is this the case in DC where CFA spent $500K.
> 
> 
> thanks, LES


http://www.sustainablefishing.org/the_road_to_catch_shares_for_charter_and_headboats

Les others may have other "evidence". That said why wouldn't edf fund litigation expenses for cfa. Link above describes a $161K Grant to get cfa started.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Bean Counter said:


> Early on in this thread someone mentioned forming a non-profit organization. There is a difference in a Not-for-profit-corporation (a legal entity in the State of Florida) and a non-profit organization (recognized by the IRS). A not-for-profit-corporation is easy, costs less than $150 to set up and takes about 5 minutes to do. A non-profit (exempt organization) requires a 1024 (Code section 501 (c) organization) or a 1023 (code section 501(c)(3) the best but may not be available). They are not difficult to set up but are time consuming. Form 1024 is 26 pages long, but don't worry, with the required attachments it really works out to be about 150 pages. If someone wanted to do this I am willing to help. Notice I said help not do. The last time I had a client pay a CPA firm (I refuse to do these in practice anymore) to set up an organization they paid $4,000 and that was about 7 years ago.



Who would I have to contact to get more information on setting up a Not-For-Profit corporation and explain exactly what limitations are placed on it. Please advise , Thanks, Les


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Les, send me a pm with a email address so I can put you in touch with someone that can help you with the non profit organization. This person is already involved with fighting this issue.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Gator McKlusky said:


> http://www.sustainablefishing.org/the_road_to_catch_shares_for_charter_and_headboats
> 
> Les others may have other "evidence". That said why wouldn't edf fund litigation expenses for cfa. Link above describes a $161K Grant to get cfa started.



That great then we should be able to get a Grant as well. depending upon the restrictions.



Thanks, we need names, proof, and more proof, of violation of MSA, conflict of interest, violation of the constitution or federal law. In my opinion we are getting closer to federal court. Have you ever posted as "Gator", if so I saved some of them.


Do you have any legal issues with MSA if so please state them and cite where they can be found. If you know of any one that has a legal issue 
with MSA have them cite them as well.

I'm working on an agenda that I will be posting in a few days to take on NOAA fisheries et al. If I can get the support it may work. Would like to start a thread but don't know how. will need about 15 to 20 individuals divided up in teams some to do legal research and others willing to do leg work. I know of a few individuals I'm personally going to as them to help with the agenda. FOLA


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

The LaJess II said:


> Les, send me a pm with a email address so I can put you in touch with someone that can help you with the non profit organization. This person is already involved with fighting this issue.




Not to good at that please send me a pm and I respond, Thanks, Les


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Done. Check your PM.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Gator McKlusky said:


> Les
> If you were to file a pro se suit who would be listed as having damages?



In my opinion, at this point and time, there may be little or no monetary damages. I don't know. Thanks Les


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

Realtor said:


> ill donate 100, but I have to say, its going to be in vain.... once the $$ runs out, people wont donate over and over again, then what? I think effort would be more productive if we get on the backs of the local BOCC and go the political route. just 2 cents, but I'll give a hundred bucks..... to get something started....


 I want to retract my offer of $$$$ at least until I see an actual effort other than just complaining on the PFF. I'm sort of burned out on this.... when I see folks confronting the local politicians, then, yeah, I'll get back in the game. until then, have fun with all this. No lawyer is going to do anything besides run out of money, again, and again.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

cold beers said:


> Tom
> 
> I assume that since you are endorsing N.A.R.A you believe they are the origination we should all get behind? If so, why do you think so?
> I only ask because I don't know, and I am willing to put money up for the fight.


Yes, NARA is a good one. Another that has a proven track record of beating the feds in court is the Fishing Rights Alliance (FRA). If you want to donate towards a legal fund, I would send the $$ there - I already have;
Fishing Rights Alliance
4604 49th St. N., #34
St. Petersburg, FL 33709


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

LES KNIGHTEN said:


> Captain Tom, do you have the case citations on these cased. I was looking for some over there. I thought I brushed by a case where Crabtree was the defendant and lost. Would be helpful.
> 
> Thanks, Les


Here's an article about it - what is interesting is that Lopealong's Charter Fisherman's Association coat-tailed on this lawsuit; "Billy Archer, who captains the boat “Seminole Wind” out of St. Andrews Marina. *“The whole purpose of the lawsuit is that you can’t penalize the states — Florida, Texas, Louisiana — because they chose to go noncompliant.”*

Now, that's all you hear about from Lopealong, Archer, and the other EDF-funded captains trying to justify their actions - the noncompliant states costing them their livelihoods. Speaking out of both sides of their mouths, as usual.

http://www.newsherald.com/outdoors/noaa-resets-gulf-snapper-season-1.153948

"PANAMA CITY BEACH — Recreational anglers in the Gulf of Mexico will have a 28-day season for red snapper in federal waters regardless of what state shoreline they fish.
Officials from the National Atmospheric and Oceanic Administration (NOAA) announced the change Monday after a judge’s ruling last week that forced the agency to re-evaluate its management procedures.
U.S. District Judge Andrew Hanen, of Brownsville, Texas, overturned an emergency rule that gave NOAA authority to set separate federal seasons for recreational snapper harvest in the five Gulf states.
Hanen said the rule was used to penalize anglers in states that enact fishing seasons that do not match the federal season, which include Florida, Texas and Louisiana. 
“That wasn’t the intent, but that was the judge’s ruling,” said NOAA Fisheries regional administrator Roy Crabtree. “That’s the law now and we’ll abide by it.”
Billy Archer, a third generation Panama City charter fisherman, sits on the board of the Charter Fisherman’s Association (CFA), an organization that joined Texas and Louisiana in the lawsuit against NOAA Fisheries.
“Basically what happened, the way the lawsuit was filed, the states of Texas and Louisiana were the primary plaintiffs, but we were a part of that group,” said Archer, who captains the boat “Seminole Wind” out of St. Andrews Marina. “The whole purpose of the lawsuit is that you can’t penalize the states — Florida, Texas, Louisiana — because they chose to go noncompliant.”


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

Donating to one of the fishing organizations that are lobbying the law makers to amend the MSA into something that will ensure sustained fisheries and provide the maximum benefits for recreational anglers is the second most important thing we can do. I doubt that nothing can be done to ameliorate the feeling between the commercial sector, the CFH faction desiring privatization and the average recreational angler. There is just no way that "it's our right, it's our way of life, it's our livelihood, we are saving our fisheries, we are saving tourism" or what ever the current buzz is against the majority of anglers who are entitled access to public resources.

So it will boil down to a legal battle and if you think about it, being right about something doesn't mean the right decision will be lade in the end. It will be who can afford to pay the lawyers the longest, who can afford lobbyists and who can sway the politician policy makers. 

That means that the most important thing we can do would be to do something at the source, swaying those politicians that will put political appointees in positions where the things they decide and vote on will affect us, like Amendment 40 did. The biggest two letter world in the world comes into play here, "IF" recreational angles banded together, state by state, county by county and by municipality and voted as a block for the candidates that would do what is right for the citizens of our communities, our counties, our states and our country. That would most likely fix associated issues like the MSA at the same time. We would become the recreational angler political party and have to give up voting party line.

The easy way to do this is just band together, count out numbers, agree to vote as a block, send that information out to out political parties and the politicians will come to us like bees to honey. We could determine the outcome of elections at every level, local, county, state and federal. If the candidates we back renege on their responsibilities to the citizens they represent, it's easy to make sure they never do it again. Politicians would pay cash money for our votes and together we can sure give someone an election if we united.

This is the kind of thing we are up against;


http://www.oceanchampions.org/oc-currents.php?id=your-choice-for-ocean-enemy-1-is


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## tbaxl (Mar 13, 2013)

Kim said:


> Donating to one of the fishing organizations that are lobbying the law makers to amend the MSA into something that will ensure sustained fisheries and provide the maximum benefits for recreational anglers is the second most important thing we can do. I doubt that nothing can be done to ameliorate the feeling between the commercial sector, the CFH faction desiring privatization and the average recreational angler. There is just no way that "it's our right, it's our way of life, it's our livelihood, we are saving our fisheries, we are saving tourism" or what ever the current buzz is against the majority of anglers who are entitled access to public resources.
> 
> So it will boil down to a legal battle and if you think about it, being right about something doesn't mean the right decision will be lade in the end. It will be who can afford to pay the lawyers the longest, who can afford lobbyists and who can sway the politician policy makers.
> 
> ...


Kim is spot, it starts here at the grass roots level.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

markw4321 said:


> Good point on the voting block Kim. By the way florida recreational fisherman's biggest advocate in terms of amending the Magnusson Stevens act, congressman Steve Sutherland whose district is over toward Panama city is about to lose his bid for reelection by around 2000 votes...



Wasn't there another congressman that was fighting for us as well as Congressman Steve


Thanks, les


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Gator McKlusky said:


> http://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/guindon-amicus-brief-jan_10-2014-filed.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the cherry on top. An amicus brief ("friend of the court") filed by charter fisherman in support of guindon vs pritzker. It may be found per the above link on the environmental defense (edf) fund website, but disregard any thoughts that edf might be funding or assisting commercial fisherman and certain charter captains in such litigation and lobbying activities cause a lot of charter pro sector separators deny this. (sarcasm intended) lmao



Proof is in the pudding. Case was designed to be lost, there were issues that should have been raised that were not. 


Thanks, Les


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Tom Hilton said:


> Here's an article about it - what is interesting is that Lopealong's Charter Fisherman's Association coat-tailed on this lawsuit; "Billy Archer, who captains the boat “Seminole Wind” out of St. Andrews Marina. *“The whole purpose of the lawsuit is that you can’t penalize the states — Florida, Texas, Louisiana — because they chose to go noncompliant.”*
> 
> Now, that's all you hear about from Lopealong, Archer, and the other EDF-funded captains trying to justify their actions - the noncompliant states costing them their livelihoods. Speaking out of both sides of their mouths, as usual.
> 
> ...



Captain Tom, in your opinion, in light of the facts and law of that case involving Crabtree would it be fair to conclude that Crabtree violated Congressional Statutory Mandated law in MSA. Based upon information and belief, I believe Crabtree is toast when it come to voting. Additionally, I understand someone raised an issue of a conflict of interest of several members of the council which did vote yes to Amendment 40, if the truth is known just how deep does this go. A few years back the IG had some issues with some of the financial statements that were filed or not filed, I believe this included member on the GC 


I'm not an attorney, however I believe their is a federal constitutional issue here that should be resolved in district court pursuant to Title 28 SEC 1331 in part as follows; "The district court shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions arising under the Constitution, laws, or treaties of the United States. Some of the council members could have some serous legal problems headed their way and don't know it. Maybe pursuant to the Federal Tort Claim Act, who knows. 


Considering my legal knowledge and I not an attorney , if I was one of the Council Members that voted in in favor of Amendment 40, I would be beating Crabtree's door down descending my vote.


I've learn a lot from your post over the years, and I believe you have inspired others to post very good information as well. All of you please keep it up.


I'm about over this posting stuff, to difficult for me. Working on my own legal remedy, it's going to be legally challenging but with God's help it will all work out, it always has.




One day, I hope to have the pleasure to met you. Thanks, Les


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## tbaxl (Mar 13, 2013)

Tom Hilton said:


> Yes, NARA is a good one. Another that has a proven track record of beating the feds in court is the Fishing Rights Alliance (FRA). If you want to donate towards a legal fund, I would send the $$ there - I already have;
> Fishing Rights Alliance
> 4604 49th St. N., #34
> St. Petersburg, FL 33709


Thanks Tom, I dumped my CAA this year as I felt they were happier sitting this on out and joined the RFA who at least keep me informed I so this and now joined the FRA maybe new members will get the groups enthused.


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Realtor said:


> I want to retract my offer of $$$$ at least until I see an actual effort other than just complaining on the PFF. I'm sort of burned out on this.... when I see folks confronting the local politicians, then, yeah, I'll get back in the game. until then, have fun with all this. No lawyer is going to do anything besides run out of money, again, and again.



I agree with your thoughts about lawyers. I'm not going to spend a dime on them, on the legal issues involved here. If you don't mind telling me how much was you offer?


Do you know that crazy English dude who thinks he knows how to fish and has that beautiful wife A???


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

I also dropped from CCA and I'm going with FRA as well.


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Sounds like a class action suit in the making. Everyone who holds a fishing license in the 5 combined states could be asked to join in the suit.

You can get lists of licensed fishermen including their address, phone and e-mail, if provided, from each state's fish and wildlife service. It will cost money to get the list but once you have it, you could put together an e-mail campaign, post card campaign, and a phone campaign. The phone campaign would have to check the numbers to make sure they were not on the "Do not call" list.

Create a 501c-4 political pac and then use the money to start building a STRONG class action suit and to have political contributions to attract the support of politicians who can write bills to change the laws that are harming the general public.

Now, back to the fund raising part of the suit. There are 1.3 million licensed fishermen in Florida alone. Imagine if just a fraction of those people contributed just $25.00. Now, add a fraction of the licensed people in AL, MS, LA & TX together. Here is an example: if 500 thousand people gave $25.00 each, that would raise 12,500,000.00! Now, you're starting to get some power.

* 10 steps to get started *

*Step 1:* form a 501c4 who is allowed to have a political action committee and to raise money. 

*Step 2:* recruit a dependable, dedicated and intelegent board of directors and *form a clear mission statement and a viable action plan * (President, VP, Treasurer, Secretary, Director of Communications, etc...) Resist the urge to put hot-heads on the BOD as they will hurt your organization's reputation the first time they blow a gasket in a public setting. 

*Step 3:* Identify a capable attorney who would argue the case. Determine the cost of building a case and fighting the case in the courts. This Attorney should be experienced and have a strong winning track record.

*Step 4:* Set up your financial accounts
..............(1) open a bank account
..............(2)pay pal account
..............(3)credit card acceptance account

*Step 5:* Create a website and Facebook page (maybe a twitter account too.) 

*Step 6:* recruit membership, donors, volunteers and, build a list of people who wish to be part of the class action suit

*Step 7:* Raise money to fund the cost of the license information gathering and recruitment campaign from your members and donors

*Step 8:* Identify politicians worthy of your organization's support who demonstrate that they serve the people and not special interest groups and give them both financial and volunteer support for their campaigns in the 2016 election cycle.

*Step 9:* Create Media campaigns including local, state and Gulf State campaigns and You-tube video's that outline the movement to support the rights of the public to have access to our natural resource.

*Step 10:* DO NOT let any setback make you give up. Quitters never win and winners never quit.


*Who knows, maybe the PFF would even donate a dedicated thread just for this cause. *


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## LES KNIGHTEN (Feb 11, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *LopeAlong*  
_I'm a member and on the board of advisors for the Charter Fishermans Association. A non-profit group that is comprise of CFH operators across the Gulf. We looked into litigation quickly after we learned that the Gulf States were stealing the entire county's access to the fishery. $500,000 is what was spent on the Guindon v, Pritzer case and what was quoted to run on the at hand issue. I don't believe a good sumariton lawyer would be able to do that much good on an issue as large as this. Now on the other hand if say like CCA, FRA and RFA all combined their resources then they have a good chance to spend a lot of money to lose a lawsuit._




"Is this post in response to my post to you. 


First, I would like to thank you for some very informative information. I didn't know you belonged to the Charter Fisherman's Association much less that you were on the advisory board, impressive, good luck. 


I may have met you, at a work shop sponsored by FWC. I did meet a women that was connected to some charter association first in Pensacola and then at the workshop in Destin what's strange, when we saw each other we felt we knew each other and couldn't recall from where. If she belongs to CFA, tell her Les said hello.


I feel honored, that CFA would spend $500k in legal expense to cut my snapper season to nine days. In lite of the fact that CFH and Head boats are legally commercial vessels which provide a living to their owners, servants employees ect. They are subject to federal income tax and other taxes just any other business. My wife and I were in business we had to have a permit to do business, our business was required to pay federal income tax, city tax, county tax, some kind of tax on all of our office equipment, we were required to have commercial insurance, I believe we had to pay some of the ss taxes on our employees. We almost went broke paying our CPA he was making more money than we were.. 


I believe the $500k would have been best spent on litigation proving that CFH and head boats should be in the commercial sector. Would CFA be willing to spend $100k to 200k in legal expense in litigation to attempt (good faith litigation but no guarantee to win) to be put in the commercial sector. 


 If CFA spent $500k on the DC case, I offering you a real deal for $100K to 200K, it's even better for you'll than Amendment 40 and everybody will be happy. Please run my offer by your advisory board and let me know, one way or another, asap need to get on it.



Thank for your time, Les " 



The above is my response to a post by LopeAlone, I think I offered CFA a real deal taking into consideration they spent $500K in litigation cost in Guindon v, Pritzer .


I haven't received "any" response from CFA, by and through their agent, aka, "LopeAlone". Apparently CFA doesn't have the money or it's not in their interest to be put in the commercial sector. I have a couple of authorities suggesting that Charter Boats and HeadBoats should be in the commercial sector, If my memory serves me correct one of them was NOAA. 


If litigation funds is the problem is a problem. Maybe I can help, I willing to drop my price from $50K to $100K. 


*I am going to extend my new offer to CFA, by and through their agent, aka, "LopeAlone" for a 24 hour period, commencing from the time this is posted. At which time, I'm going to withdraw my offer.*


Thanks for your time and consideration. Please advise, Les


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## tbaxl (Mar 13, 2013)

You go LES, I am really beginning to enjoy reading your take on the situation.


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