# Whats best shooting test to judge one's skill?S



## Capt Ron

I believe like many of you, that the only thing that truly counts in shooting is stopping a threat when you have to... regardless of form, style, or weapon used. That being said....


What do you guys think the best shooting test is to judge/ rank a shooter's skill level? We talk about this often, but lets really discuss it.
Many of you have competition experience and great insight to share on this matter.

I also know it may be impossible for many of us to get faster at public gun ranges due to the limitations of how fast shooters are allowed to shoot.

The classic El Presidente?

A more definitive level would be appreciated for those of us who are unable to compete for whatever reasons.

We can come up with our own PFF test ranking if you guys want or simply use a national standard club standard/ military standard/ IPSC, IDPA, etc...

And we don't need to include any Bosu balls! Unless you want to


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## sniperpeeps

You have to bring your heart rate up with strenuous physical activity to simulate what your body would go through in a real life situation. Get the breathing heavy and heart rate up, use realistic targets at realistic ranges, and have correcting malfunctions as part of the course of fire. Also, have a realistic time limit.


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## aaronious45

sniperpeeps said:


> You have to bring your heart rate up with strenuous physical activity to simulate what your body would go through in a real life situation. Get the breathing heavy and heart rate up, use realistic targets at realistic ranges, and have correcting malfunctions as part of the course of fire. Also, have a realistic time limit.


Agreed, do a few sprints and then try and shoot...


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## fisheye48

shoothouse with real guns and sim rounds and a real life situation like room clearing, or threat in the house


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## Joraca

Pocket pistols!

At night!

On the Bosu ball!

With a live monkey on your back!!

Joraca


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## Capt Ron

I was thinking something more in the lines that most adult shooters of all ages could do..
But a tactical test is good also.
50 yard sprint and points for time? I think that's fair on that level


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## sniperpeeps

Capt Ron said:


> I was thinking something more in the lines that most adult shooters of all ages could do..
> But a tactical test is good also.
> 50 yard sprint and points for time? I think that's fair on that level


I shot the Sniperweek competition in Clearwater, Fl a couple of times. They are very good at implementing the PT with the shooting in a way that allows everyone to compete. The bottom line though is you will shoot better if you are in good physical shape. Also, implementing pushups is a good way to simulate arm shake that one might experience in a real world situation. For people who have never done a so called "stress shoot", it can be a real eye opener and reveal shortcomings that you didn't know existed. This is good because now you can train and fix these and be a better marksman.


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## fisheye48

Capt Ron said:


> I was thinking something more in the lines that most adult shooters of all ages could do..
> But a tactical test is good also.
> 50 yard sprint and points for time? I think that's fair on that level


true but its how you act in the situation of people shooting at you that will teach you how to react to contact


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## glassplus

I only ask one thing, make it walking cane Friendly,I belive getting in my Hover-Round and then getting out of it well do to get my heart rate up. Can I use my shooting stick. I only got in about a 100 rds to day the cold was getting to my bones. Working to hard, got to take a break. jj


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## HisName

an underwear check after it is all over


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## glassplus

Got depends, only way to go jj


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## Az-Vic

You'd be surprised at just how much adrenalin gets pumping just having a crowd watching you. Ive seen a fair number of LEO types shake like a dog shitting a peach pit at just our local matches shooting a bowling pin match. My local county deputy was shooting as I was ROing this match, and I had to verbally whisper to him to just relax, it's all for fun and shoot slowly. That poor sonofabitch went thru four magazines from his duty rig (Colt 1911) and still couldn't takeout all five pins.
A shooting test is very subjective, just to many disciplines, tacticool type at arms length, speed shooting, action shooting,bullseye. I would be very hard to come up with a definitive test?


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## Capt Ron

Like I said..I acknowledge all that heart pumping adrenaline shooting, combat survival close quarters shoot or die drill
But what about other things like the El Presidente drill?
Do the classics count? How do associations rank and class shooters by their skills? What do you guys think of these classifications?


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## JoeKing

I would say a good all around shooter would be someone who could hit targets with either hand from any position while under stress. They could also handle reloads and malfunctions while still keeping aware of their surroundings and movement of targets.


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## Az-Vic

The classic El Presidente is still a good one, don't see it much in matches any more? I can remember Ross Seyfried, around 1979, shooting it in an amazing 7 seconds. 20 years later I saw Rob Leatham blaze thru it in around 3 seconds. It can be a humbling stage, depending of course if it's using an ipsc target where perfect is all As or steel.


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## MikeH

I also like the el presidente.strange to think after all of these years it still is a very relevant drill, and one that still should be practiced from time to time.


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## Emerald Ghost

sniperpeeps said:


> You have to bring your heart rate up with strenuous physical activity to simulate what your body would go through in a real life situation. Get the breathing heavy and heart rate up, use realistic targets at realistic ranges, and have correcting malfunctions as part of the course of fire. Also, have a realistic time limit.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Xs 2 Did it back in the training days, and it makes a BIG difference.


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## Az-Vic

Every "situation" is uniqe unto itself I suppose, but I would hazzard racing heart rate,rapid breathing etc is more apt to pretain to a military type scenario or law enforcement officer engaging the bad guys. Most of us "regular" folk, when faced with the decision to use a firearm, will find it happens at the least expected moment,and probably not after sprinting or doing push-ups.
Livng along the mexican border my whole life, Ive had maybe half a dozen times where I was aware of possible conflict,maybe twice where I actually was planning what I might need to do and had my hand on my gun. Only once in my life did I ever reach the place where the gun was in my hand, leveled at the bad guy and the situation evolved clear to the last step of stroking the trigger. I was standing outside my back door, little bitty 2 inch S&W 649 in hand, wearing nothing but my underwear, 10 feet from the fella I was about to shoot.....Never in my wildest dreams is that the picture I would have painted when thinking of what an armed confrontation would look like.
My heart was not racing, I wasn't breathing like a race horse, I wasn't shaking, none of what you hear on the general forum talk. The only two things I clearly remember having difficulty with was my hearing, and my eye sight, it was a fight to keep the tunnel vision away, just likek I was looking thru a pipe?
I still believe it's not so much shooting skill, but rather the will or the taking of a decision to use your firearm, rather than how well you shoot it at ten feet?


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## Wharf Rat

If you're just trying to show shooting skill, I don't see what physical exertion has to do with it. Now if you are trying to show situational skill, that's different...but doesn't appear to be what the original question was.


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## glassplus

*what you do*

I will have to agree with Ax-Vic, the two things that I had difficulty with was my hearing, and eye sight, and I to, had got out of bed with no clothes, got my kel-light-Browning 9-mm, wife call 911, and things same to happen in slow speed,but is it is really going at light speed. Ended up putting my self in a bad spot, I set off the motion lights, was in they way of trying to get out, they came at me with they truck.
Forgot I changed out the Browning at door for the 870 and it ended up to be three in two trucks one truck they had just stolen and had just been released from prison in Alb.and was on probation, two had to have buck shot removed. Learned alot from this. This one reason I now train all the time,Where every I go, or what I do, I try to be aware of what is going on around me, if you pratice this you will start doing it with out thinking. Just like driving. just my 5-cents jj


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## sniperpeeps

Az-Vic said:


> Every "situation" is uniqe unto itself I suppose, but I would hazzard racing heart rate,rapid breathing etc is more apt to pretain to a military type scenario or law enforcement officer engaging the bad guys. Most of us "regular" folk, when faced with the decision to use a firearm, will find it happens at the least expected moment,and probably not after sprinting or doing push-ups.


The physical activity does nothing more than simulate how your body reacts from an adrenaline rush, something with which 99% of people will experience in a gun fight or life and death situation. Obviously, your not going to knock out some pushups before you shoot a home invader.


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## Buckyt

At my advanced age, I'd be sitting in my recliner with my .40 cal pumping shots thu the front door while some idiot is trying to kick it in.


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## Capt Ron

My heart never raced on several occasions on my Warrington property/residence, maybe because I always felt in control on my own property with the option of not shooting.
Then again I'm SCUBA trained as instructor/divemaster/adult underwater day-care and with over 350 deep chartered tour recreational dives on the Oriskany I have learned to control every aspect of my breathing and behavior underwater when often things didn't go as planned for many uncontrollable reasons.
Interestingly enough, while having a phone conversation with Massad Ayoob, he was very curious about a panicked diver's behavior underwater. We talked more about diving than guns..interesting guy.


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## sniperpeeps

Capt Ron said:


> My heart never raced on several occasions on my Warrington property/residence, maybe because I always felt in control on my own property with the option of not shooting.


I've had many engagements and a lot of experience in dicey situations. I can tell you for sure that if someone were trying to break into my house in the middle of the night, my heart rate would be up. If you are just cool as a cucumber then good for you. I have seen some world class shooters get nervous as hell just for a competition, much less a life or death situation. Accelerated heart rare, shakes, etc. It is completely possible to have a self defense situation that happens quickly. Then you would just react, and maybe not have time to get jacked up. My point is, what happens when it's not just a one shot engagement. You miss, or they fire first. Now you have to move to cover or maneuver to get position. In addition, now your body has time to catch up and I don't believe a soul who says that their heart rate wouldn't be up in that situation. I have trained with some of the best in the world and there is a reason that they all train the way they do. If you look at any of the premier shooting schools running today, I bet they implement some sort of physical activity with shooting. In my opinion, you should never assume that you won't be in certain situations. You should train for all possible circumstances. 

When I was an instructor, I would tell every class of students that the worst thing they can do is assume that know everything or not be open minded to new training. No matter how good you are, you can always be better. I hope that is something that sticks with them today.


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## scubapro

Training to shoot under aerobic stress (elevated heart & respiratory rate) should be included in advanced shooting courses.

Speaking with individuals (military, LEO, and civilian) who have successfully engaged in - and survived - gun fights/ firefights would render better advice than a writer of gun rag articles in my opinion. Some of those authors (like some instructors) have become legends in their own mind...

I'd prefer to speak with a ground pounder returning from the sand box about what worked for him in terms of techniques for survival - than someone who writes glowing reviews for every firearm he is sent.

As you can tell, I'm not an Ayoob koolaid drinker...


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## Catchin Hell

During AF firearms qualifications, we had to fire standing, over barricade, under barricade, and prone. You also have to change clips while continuing to fire from each position. I remember doing aerobic activity before firing, but I think it was self imposed and not necessarily required. I always fired expert with the rifle, but I just never cared for pistols. I was only required to fire on the pistol course a couple of times in my career, but it would have been nice to add an oak leaf to my expert ribbon. I was talked into firing in one AF pistol competition. The opening was firing double action 38's. I didn't make it past the first round


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## sniperpeeps

Wharf Rat said:


> If you're just trying to show shooting skill, I don't see what physical exertion has to do with it. Now if you are trying to show situational skill, that's different...but doesn't appear to be what the original question was.



He said stopping a threat, which implies to me situational shooting.


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## FenderBender

Running through a field barefoot, with random thumbtacks on the ground, while getting hit randomly with a dog shock collar and a train horn constantly blowing. Paper plate targets randomly pop up at 10 yds.


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## FenderBender

Or shooting for speed and accuracy with one leg in a fire ant bed.


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## BBob

Old fart opinion...It is hard for me to imagine there is anything you can do in practice to make your mind and body react like it shall when placed in a life threatening situation...i.e. being shot at by someone... I also know that you can not predict 100% of the time how anyone will react in a given situation. 

You must train to a level that your reaction become almost instinctive and predicable when faced with a given stimuli... when you drop your hunting knife you instinctive move your feet out of the way without realizing what you are doing. JMHO

As far as rating a shooter's skill level. It depends on what discipline you chose. On the ball, speed shooting, long range, bench rest, etc, etc, etc.

MY $.02 at how to bring up some adrenaline without the PT....Pop a shooter with a paint ball gun so that they KNOW that it hurts. Now let them shoot at another person who is shooting at them. Except the shooter gets no visor, or pads and is only 15-20 feet away. Of course the instructor can be wearing the protective equipment. 

OOH RAH and carry-on BBob


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## Capt Ron

I have performed both adrenaline drills with a .3ml adult dose epi pen and the Dracula drill. These are famous drills designed my Massad Ayoob and exercised during his Lethal Force Institute training. I could not attend his class personally so I saved time and money and performed them on my own.
Let me just say something about an epi pen...they hurt!!!!!!!!!!! Not at first, but my leg was soar for 2 days after. The rush was nominal, like a couple cups of coffee, but no dramatic difference. It was a waste of an epi pen. 


I have shot while down 2 pints of blood, one pint taken from each clinic within an hour, an no I was not driving. A friend at the time was kind enough to drive me from a blood mobile on base to the blood clinic by Omni fitness.. I tried shooting after one pint donation and felt no difference in the past. At minus two pints I really just felt a bit tired. I think 3 pints would have made a noticeable difference, but I wasn't going for it.

I have shot dehydrated after being awake all night vomiting with food poisoning. Anybody ever vomit up 98 degree Gatorade? It's nasty. This was probably the worst I have ever felt while shooting. And when I say probably, I mean without a friggin doubt.

As far as heart rate...I believe for most civilian encounters which don't statistically last more than 4 seconds, the heart rate is really irrelevant simply because the threat/ target is so close.
Maintaining a proper sight picture is *NOT* an issue of heart rate, it's an issue of proper repetitive training.

When I have students that have been involved in shootings, mostly LEO street shootings, and military combat, I ask them and interview them about their experience so that I may share their experiences with my students. Not one of them (at least 30 individuals) noticed their heart rate or mentioned their heart rate playing a role in their shooting abilities. That's probably why guns are so effective, because you don't have to be in great shape to point , aim shoot, repeat as necessary. 

#1 Answer: "I just reacted to my training." sight alignment squeeze!
#2 Answer: "I was was lucky."

My Assessment:
Physical endurance (unless shooting long distance rifle) plays very little if any role in SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING skills.
Ability to react to training under pressure seems to be everything.

When I shoot, it's just me, the front sight, and the target. Nothing else matters. I'm more focused on NOT missing my shot than I am on losing a bet or my life.

I will have to shot you guys a video of my stress-fire paintball training. Thats right, you get hit with paintballs in the back, neck, butt, legs while shooting and reloading on targets in front of you. And you can't move, you have to stand there and take it while you engage your targets. Very few students opt for this, but the one's who do, typically are glad they did. It's a learning experience, that only bring temporary pain in a safe environment. 
This gives me an idea for the Glock class!


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## scubapro

Capt Ron said:


> I have performed both adrenaline drills with a .3ml adult dose epi pen and the Dracula drill.
> Let me just say something about an epi pen...they hurt!!!!!!!!!!! Not at first, but my leg was soar for 2 days after. The rush was nominal, like a couple cups of coffee, but no dramatic difference. It was a waste of an epi pen.
> 
> 
> I have shot while down 2 pints of blood, one pint taken from each clinic within an hour, an no I was not driving. A friend at the time was kind enough to drive me from a blood mobile on base to the blood clinic by Omni fitness.. I tried shooting after one pint donation and felt no difference in the past. At minus two pints I really just felt a bit tired. I think 3 pints would have made a noticeable difference, but I wasn't going for it.
> 
> I have shot dehydrated after being awake all night vomiting with food poisoning. Anybody ever vomit up 98 degree Gatorade? It's nasty. This was probably the worst I have ever felt while shooting. And when I say probably, I mean without a friggin doubt.
> 
> As far as heart rate...I believe for most civilian encounters which don't statistically last more than 4 seconds, the heart rate is really irrelevant simply because the threat/ target is so close.
> Maintaining a proper sight picture is *NOT* an issue of heart rate, it's an issue of proper repetitive training.
> 
> When I have students that have been involved in shootings, mostly LEO street shootings, and military combat, I ask them and interview them about their experience so that I may share their experiences with my students. Not one of them (at least 30 individuals) noticed their heart rate or mentioned their heart rate playing a role in their shooting abilities. That's probably why guns are so effective, because you don't have to be in great shape to point , aim shoot, repeat as necessary.
> 
> #1 Answer: "I just reacted to my training." sight alignment squeeze!
> #2 Answer: "I was was lucky."
> 
> My Assessment:
> Physical endurance (unless shooting long distance rifle) plays very little if any role in SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING skills.
> Ability to react to training under pressure seems to be everything.
> 
> When I shoot, it's just me, the front sight, and the target. Nothing else matters. I'm more focused on NOT missing my shot than I am on losing a bet or my life.
> 
> I will have to shot you guys a video of my stress-fire paintball training. Thats right, you get hit with paintballs in the back, neck, butt, legs while shooting and reloading on targets in front of you. And you can't move, you have to stand there and take it while you engage your targets. Very few students opt for this, but the one's who do, typically are glad they did. It's a learning experience, that only bring temporary pain in a safe environment.
> This gives me an idea for the Glock class!


 
This post confirms...we have superman amongst us...

After reading this -- I realize why Mark Lucas of Deadeye Lukes Holsters said what he said at the last gun show. If only it had been captured on video...


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## sniperpeeps

Capt Ron said:


> I have performed both adrenaline drills with a .3ml adult dose epi pen and the Dracula drill.
> Let me just say something about an epi pen...they hurt!!!!!!!!!!! Not at first, but my leg was soar for 2 days after. The rush was nominal, like a couple cups of coffee, but no dramatic difference. It was a waste of an epi pen.
> 
> 
> I have shot while down 2 pints of blood, one pint taken from each clinic within an hour, an no I was not driving. A friend at the time was kind enough to drive me from a blood mobile on base to the blood clinic by Omni fitness.. I tried shooting after one pint donation and felt no difference in the past. At minus two pints I really just felt a bit tired. I think 3 pints would have made a noticeable difference, but I wasn't going for it.
> 
> I have shot dehydrated after being awake all night vomiting with food poisoning. Anybody ever vomit up 98 degree Gatorade? It's nasty. This was probably the worst I have ever felt while shooting. And when I say probably, I mean without a friggin doubt.
> 
> As far as heart rate...I believe for most civilian encounters which don't statistically last more than 4 seconds, the heart rate is really irrelevant simply because the threat/ target is so close.
> Maintaining a proper sight picture is *NOT* an issue of heart rate, it's an issue of proper repetitive training.
> 
> When I have students that have been involved in shootings, mostly LEO street shootings, and military combat, I ask them and interview them about their experience so that I may share their experiences with my students. Not one of them (at least 30 individuals) noticed their heart rate or mentioned their heart rate playing a role in their shooting abilities. That's probably why guns are so effective, because you don't have to be in great shape to point , aim shoot, repeat as necessary.
> 
> #1 Answer: "I just reacted to my training." sight alignment squeeze!
> #2 Answer: "I was was lucky."
> 
> My Assessment:
> Physical endurance (unless shooting long distance rifle) plays very little if any role in SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING skills.
> Ability to react to training under pressure seems to be everything.
> 
> When I shoot, it's just me, the front sight, and the target. Nothing else matters. I'm more focused on NOT missing my shot than I am on losing a bet or my life.
> 
> I will have to shot you guys a video of my stress-fire paintball training. Thats right, you get hit with paintballs in the back, neck, butt, legs while shooting and reloading on targets in front of you. And you can't move, you have to stand there and take it while you engage your targets. Very few students opt for this, but the one's who do, typically are glad they did. It's a learning experience, that only bring temporary pain in a safe environment.
> This gives me an idea for the Glock class!



Yea your right, what do I know. Easy to tell when someone draws their experiences from a book or what they hear VS actual experience. Drive on with your awesomeness Capt.


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## Jason

I have resisted, but must say 1 thing:

I pray for your sake Capt., that you never find yourself in a real life situation where deadly force is applicated...It's not like on TV/movies.


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## MrFish

> I will have to shot you guys a video of my stress-fire paintball training. Thats right, you get hit with paintballs in the back, neck, butt, legs while shooting and reloading on targets in front of you. And you can't move, you have to stand there and take it while you engage your targets. Very few students opt for this, but the one's who do, typically are glad they did. It's a learning experience, that only bring temporary pain in a safe environment.


No matter how much they sting, the student knows that they will not kill them. That little tidbit of knowledge is the difference between aggravation and "fight or flight". The heart rate would increase nominally with aggravation, while it would increase exponentially when in a real life or death situation.


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## aaronious45

Capt Ron said:


> My heart never raced on several occasions
> 
> Have you never been in a fight of any sort? I and anyone I know has a fast heart rate and the jitter shakes from adrenaline....
> 
> I'm in pretty good shape, my heart rate still goes up when a big buck walks out


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## Az-Vic

It's not what you don't know that will hurt you, it's what you think you know,but really don't.


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## sniperpeeps

FenderBender said:


> Or shooting for speed and accuracy with one leg in a fire ant bed.



I bet Capt Ron holds the record for that, while down two pints of blood and vomiting


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## Capt Ron

Sniper peeps, Not even Capt Ron messes with fire-ants!

And by the way I just bought a .308 from Walmart with a bushy scope. It should be good enough for a superman like myself. Anyone want to shoot for a cash tourney or pride? Maybe sometime in April?


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## Capt Ron

Jason said:


> I have resisted, but must say 1 thing:
> 
> I pray for your sake Capt., that you never find yourself in a real life situation where deadly force is applicated...It's not like on TV/movies.


Please don't resist. You guys can send me private messages anytime you want to express yourselves and your thoughts.

Good thing for the past 41 years I have lived in my Bat Cave protected by my nannie and armed guards and sheltered from anyone who might want to hurt a guy with a mind like mine. What are real life situations like with deadly force involved? Will I piss myself? Freeze and curl up? Start begging for my life? Some times you guys really make me giggle like a school girl with your references to real life and war and violence and assumptions of others' experiences. Not everybody pisses themselves, some of us live for what others fear. My heart doesnt beat any faster when I have sights on the biggest buck in the world, because killing a trophy buck has no value to me. 
I have never shot a large wild animal, simply because I don't have the desire to kill. I understand and respect the rights of others who do, but I'm, not wired that way. 
I have only spoke about various training techniques I have used. Would a personal kill list make discussions anymore valid? How about sniping 150 scumbags from 500 yards? Is that a superman skill or a necessary evil? 

Personally I'd rather live with a Jihadist after me for a bounty than a jealous husband for revenge. Jihadist will eventually give up and go home.

Gentleman, we all know killing is easy, very easy, too easy. That's why doctors get paid more than Marines. Getting shot at is easy, getting hit by a bullet is easy. It doesn't make a person special, or experienced, it only makes a person unlucky or stupid to have been in that situation to begin with in the first place. 

Perhaps the discussion is better served getting back to techniques that help better to hit a target whatever it may be. Sight alignment is sight alignment. How cool a shooter is under any pressure is personal personal issue.

I enjoy all the back and forth banter, it helps me relax at night. I like all the shots being taken at me, after all I give you all the ammo. 

The fact still remains, I'm the only one that still hits his target at 50', one handed, standing on one leg on an upside down Bosu ball. When any of you forum fighters think you can out-shoot me, come on down. I'll give you a free lesson in bad-ass


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## Captain Trip Carter

you guys are nuts!


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## scubapro

"Legend in his own mind" no longer needs an illustration for the encyclopedia...

Folks who are looking for firearms instruction - buyer beware... The phrase "you get what you pay for" couldn't be more true.

Some things are best posted in public - rather than via PM - out of concern for unsuspecting PFF members...



(Fade to black - with Patrick Stewart voice-over, "Carry on Shooting Pro - carry on")


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## sniperpeeps

Capt Ron said:


> I have performed both adrenaline drills with a .3ml adult dose epi pen and the Dracula drill.
> Let me just say something about an epi pen...they hurt!!!!!!!!!!! Not at first, but my leg was soar for 2 days after. The rush was nominal, like a couple cups of coffee, but no dramatic difference. It was a waste of an epi pen.
> 
> 
> I have shot while down 2 pints of blood, one pint taken from each clinic within an hour, an no I was not driving. A friend at the time was kind enough to drive me from a blood mobile on base to the blood clinic by Omni fitness.. I tried shooting after one pint donation and felt no difference in the past. At minus two pints I really just felt a bit tired. I think 3 pints would have made a noticeable difference, but I wasn't going for it.
> 
> I have shot dehydrated after being awake all night vomiting with food poisoning. Anybody ever vomit up 98 degree Gatorade? It's nasty. This was probably the worst I have ever felt while shooting. And when I say probably, I mean without a friggin doubt.


Seriously? Give me a break.



Capt Ron said:


> As far as heart rate...I believe for most civilian encounters which don't statistically last more than 4 seconds, the heart rate is really irrelevant simply because the threat/ target is so close.
> Maintaining a proper sight picture is *NOT* an issue of heart rate, it's an issue of proper repetitive training.


Statistics can be misleading



Capt Ron said:


> My Assessment:
> Physical endurance (unless shooting long distance rifle) plays very little if any role in SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING skills.
> Ability to react to training under pressure seems to be everything.


Seems a little contradictory, especially followed by this remark a few posts later- make up your mind



Capt Ron said:


> How cool a shooter is under any pressure is personal personal issue.


And don't even go here-


Capt Ron said:


> Gentleman, we all know killing is easy, very easy, too easy


Now I will say this, Capt I'm sure you have a good grasp on defensive shooting and I have no doubt that many people come to your courses and learn techniques to defend themselves. However, it is laughable to me to suggest that heart rate does not play into defensive shooting. The original question was along the lines of eliminating a threat. You aren't really arguing with me when it comes to the heart rate thing, you are arguing with science. It is a fact that one's heart rate will go up in a life or death situation. Frankly, I don't know what your experience is farther than what I have read but I can tell you that when it comes to training someone how to survive a gunfight I know what I am talking about. You noted that statistically a defensive gun battle lasts 4 seconds. In 4 seconds, I agree that your body will not yet be all jacked up on adrenaline in 4 seconds. So what happens when you get into this situation where its been 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes. What if you live out in the country and the police are a long ways away. You have more than one shooter trying to rob you and they mean business. The situations are endless that could lead to an prolonged situation. I would even venture to say that many people would have their hear rate and adrenaline pumping even hearing someone prowling around outside their home in the middle of the night. 

Also, don't get caught up saying that you have talked to all these people about defensive situations and no one said anything about their heart rate. Likely, you didn't ask about it and even more likely that they wouldn't remember what their heart rate was unless they were wearing something to measure their heart rate. I know I wouldn't be thinking about my heart rate or being jacked up on adrenaline during a fight but just because I am not thinking about it does not mean it is not effecting me. 



Capt Ron said:


> It doesn't make a person special, or experienced, it only makes a person unlucky or stupid to have been in that situation to begin with in the first place.


If you are saying that someone who survives a gun fight is not gaining any experience, that is absolutely idiotic.

Like I said in a previous post, being close minded to new ideas and theories is a bad idea in the shooting world. 

And for the shooting for money thing, I no longer shoot any sort of competitions. The only reason I ever shot any in the first place was for the great training they provided, not to show off or win a trophy or beat my chest.


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## scubapro

Prior experience? 

The duties of a Second Class PR rating in the Navy:

What They Do: The duties performed by PRs include: inspecting, maintaining and repairing survival equipment, flight gear and protective clothing (anti-gravity suits etc.); using, adjusting, maintaining and repairing sewing machines; inspecting and testing oxygen regulators, liquid oxygen converters and safety equipment; repairing, packing and rigging parachutes; equipping and packing life rafts; manufacturing various types of fabric work and webbing assemblies used in survival equipment.

Certainly a necessary and valuable function - but not an "operator" by any stretch of the imagination.

Thus, one is left to infer that all shooting experience has come at the hands of the NRA - along with various magazine articles & videotapes marketed to the public.

I'm sure Ron can be an effective instructor to new shooters (if the ego can be controlled). However, as to taking seasoned shooters to the "next level" - doubtful. I have only comments of others to go by, as I haven't been involved in a shooting environment with Ron - but I am hearing a consistent pattern/evaluation that isn't encouraging.

Combine that with the brief encounters that I have had with Ron - I think there is much room for a spirit of humility to develop. No true mature instructor feels a need to prove anything - or self proclaim as "being the best".

The chest pounding and outlandish comments on ability, methods, etc has become laughable - and I expect educated buyers of training courses have become wary.

I really hope for Ron's sake, we can see an attitude change.


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## aaronious45

scubapro said:


> Prior experience?
> 
> The duties of a Second Class PR rating in the Navy:
> 
> What They Do: The duties performed by PRs include: inspecting, maintaining and repairing survival equipment, flight gear and protective clothing (anti-gravity suits etc.); using, adjusting, maintaining and repairing sewing machines; inspecting and testing oxygen regulators, liquid oxygen converters and safety equipment; repairing, packing and rigging parachutes; equipping and packing life rafts; manufacturing various types of fabric work and webbing assemblies used in survival equipment.
> 
> Certainly a necessary and valuable function - but not an "operator" by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> Thus, one is left to infer that all shooting experience has come at the hands of the NRA - along with various magazine articles & videotapes marketed to the public.
> 
> I'm sure Ron can be an effective instructor to new shooters (if the ego can be controlled). However, as to taking seasoned shooters to the "next level" - doubtful. I have only comments of others to go by, as I haven't been involved in a shooting environment with Ron - but I am hearing a consistent pattern/evaluation that isn't encouraging.
> 
> Combine that with the brief encounters that I have had with Ron - I think there is much room for a spirit of humility to develop. No true mature instructor feels a need to prove anything - or self proclaim as "being the best".
> 
> The chest pounding and outlandish comments on ability, methods, etc has become laughable - and I expect educated buyers of training courses have become wary.
> 
> I really hope for Ron's sake, we can see an attitude change.


Damn, that got my heart rate up lol


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## Az-Vic

I'll be damned; once again "el capitan" lays down the gauntlet and challenges any of you "internet forum fighters" to a shoot out. I accepted that once, and laid out the simple challenge. He squirmed and crawfished his way out of it, until it was forgotten.
My BS buzzer went off after reading his first two posts when I got on this site. I must admit to myself I am indeed getting old, it should have went off after the first post


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## cone

Capt. Ron I usually try not to get involved in these internet shootouts but after all of your posts I would be very reluctant to recommend you to anyone. It also makes me wonder are you related to or are you the person in this thread?
http://doodiepants.com/2009/12/09/the-legend-of-the-mall-ninja-gecko45/


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## MrFish

cone said:


> Capt. Ron I usually try not to get involved in these internet shootouts but after all of your posts I would be very reluctant to recommend you to anyone. It also makes me wonder are you related to or are you the person in this thread?
> http://doodiepants.com/2009/12/09/the-legend-of-the-mall-ninja-gecko45/


That was one of the funniest things I've read in a long time!


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## sniperpeeps

MrFish said:


> That was one of the funniest things I've read in a long time!


+1 hilarious


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## tonyd

im glad im still alive!! the biggest shooting challange i ever had was 3 bird sporting clays with a pump gun .eye hand and think on your feet


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## tonyd

sounds like the guys at the pace range


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## aaronious45

cone said:


> Capt. Ron I usually try not to get involved in these internet shootouts but after all of your posts I would be very reluctant to recommend you to anyone. It also makes me wonder are you related to or are you the person in this thread?
> http://doodiepants.com/2009/12/09/the-legend-of-the-mall-ninja-gecko45/


I'm pretty sure they based the movie "observe and report" on that


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## Murphy's Law

cone said:


> Capt. Ron I usually try not to get involved in these internet shootouts but after all of your posts I would be very reluctant to recommend you to anyone. It also makes me wonder are you related to or are you the person in this thread?
> http://doodiepants.com/2009/12/09/the-legend-of-the-mall-ninja-gecko45/


Just read the whole mall cop thread. Funny shat right there !!!! I hope we do have one amongst us, Could be very entertaining LOL

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Forum Runner


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## Capt Ron

MrFish said:


> That was one of the funniest things I've read in a long time!


That was funny.


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## Az-Vic

Ron has graciously accepted my offer to a display of differing techniques played out in a small wager competition. This originally started out with his claim that he can shoot stronger,faster and with more control one handed, rather than two.
I had made a wager he couldn't, using a well known scenario or five falling plates at 15 yards, his one hand draw/shoot, against my two hand draw/shoot, figuring he would amend his stance on the two shooting styles, instead he stuck pat. Things quickly ran afoul with additions of targets,penalties for misses, standing on one leg and 33 round magazines, which handgun type could be used ect.... and became forgotten in the quagmire.
Ron has contacted me and expressed a desire to rekindle the friendly competition, and I thought it would be a wonderful opportunity for forum members to get together and watch two knuckleheads battle it out.
Ron has agreed to my original format of using whatever handgun the shooter feels most comfortable with, five eight inch plates, 15 yards from shooting line, shooter draws at start signal and shoots until all five plates are down stopping his time. Ron has suggested we do ten runs each, at tenbucks a throw, the winner of each relay gets the hard earned ten bucks of the loser...pretty simple.
We need to have a day when those that would like to attend and watch, can, and Ron can be vindicated in his theory....or I can bask in my belief that two is always better than one!...


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## Jason

I'll bring the paintball guns and shoot at ya'll while the plates fall to add a "reality" to the scenario...to get ya'lls blood pumping!!! Maybe if ya'll balance on a ball or something too.....


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## 706Z

Is it too windy today?I will watch.


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## sniperpeeps

Anybody want any side action? I'll take who ever is shooting 2 handed and give 2-1 odds


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## Murphy's Law

Jason said:


> I'll bring the paintball guns and shoot at ya'll while the plates fall to add a "reality" to the scenario...to get ya'lls blood pumping!!! Maybe if ya'll balance on a ball or something too.....


Before you shoot'em with the paint Jason, I'll cut them with my pocket knife just enough to lose two ounces of blood. Got to make this as real as real can get 

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Forum Runner


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## tonyd

let me know when and where !! 5 plates @15 yds. can i ust a .22? aint worth a crap with pistol but this sounds like fun. i may learn somthing


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## pilotpop

I will stay out of this except to say that no face gear in a paintball game is a possibility of life changing events.. there is a Deputy in Mobile that lost his eyesight in his left eye when a paintball went in the left side by his gogles.. also I have to agree with scubapro I don't wear a shootme first vest either..


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## Capt Ron

pilotpop said:


> I will stay out of this except to say that no face gear in a paintball game is a possibility of life changing events.. there is a Deputy in Mobile that lost his eyesight in his left eye when a paintball went in the left side by his gogles.. also I have to agree with scubapro I don't wear a shootme first vest either..


I agree with the face gear. I have Bolle tactical goggles for my students and head gear if we go that route in training. I have several eye docs shoot with me and they really hate paintball guns. They would rather NOT see the eye damage than make money that way.
I suppose that's one of the reasons, painballing has declined...the liability aspect, people treating paintguns like toys and then sueing the property owner for their own shooting negligence.
Shame, so much fun. Many people have asked me to open the range to paint balling, and when you see the potential you will understand why, but no way! You get your eye shot out with those things by some newbie or pro.

Paintballing sure is fun though...I'm tempted to set up a small game just for PFF members if there was enough interest. Maybe something like capture the flag. I'm not sure of the rules, but I'm sure the objective is to shoot and not be hit.
I just received 20 plastic white 55 gallon drums, surely they could use a paint job!


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## TheCarver

Clip 5 100.00 dollar bills around your neck an walk Green an Cervantes st P,Cola Fl From 10:00 pm till 1:30, If you dont get the test of your life, an a real one at that. Then your truly a child of God an he is walking with you. An I will say God be with you if any try this with there firearm hidden, ole Carver


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## NoEvo

Alright . I know I'm way late on this post , but have to say .... What a debate ! That was great !! 
Also I don't know anything about a gun fight in any fashion , but drag racing motorcycles , cars , skydiving ... I assure all , your adrenalin starts pumping a whole lot sooner than 5 seconds !! But in an emergency . Perhaps the ability to recognize the danger or circumstance and keep you head on straight is possible too .. I've been in some pretty bad situations offshore over the past 19 years and you just do what you know , follow procedure , TCB !!


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## Az-Vic

Fun to re-read....whatever happened to Major ron??? He seems to have quietly wandered off to oblivion?


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## scubapro

I'm sure he's still with us - claiming to be an FDLE certified instructor... Right glassplus?


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## TheRoguePirate

Dracula drill? Epi Drill? This guy is a clown who made this up. there is no training in this. agree with sniper peeps, cardio and some push ups are a great stress enducer....whoever says your heart rate and breathing dont get out of line is an idiot. anyone who posts his credentials up all over everything is a idiot, someone who is closed minded and puts people in a dangerous situation that they preach is the real thing (even though their hardest decision in life has been deciding between mint choc chip or butter pecan) is a total clown shoe. I believe capt ron should best try to shoot himself in the head before he gets some poor sap who believes in his lies hurt or killed.


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## TheRoguePirate

So after my last post I come to work to find this in my private messeges. you tell me, does this sound like someone you would like to pay your money to train you? or does this sound like a pathetic coward who talks tough over the internet to strangers.
If you want professional training in fire arms go to Tier1Group. Most instructors there are good friends who i served with and have the experience, credentials and cred to back up their training regiment. Another good group is Viking tactics, I served in the same AO overseas and took a 2 week course by Kyle Lamb and he is a strict professional. 
And capt ron, if you threaten me again i will be more than happy to meet up and discuss this personally with you, clown shoe. 



Since you're ignorant, I will inform you that Massad Ayoob came up with the Dracula Drill and Epi Drill.
My shooting can back up my mouth along with every other part of my body. Since yours can not I would appreciate if you kept your ignorant statements in reference to my post to yourself. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me in person. I will give you every opportunity to do so man to man.
I don't know who you are and you obviously don't know anything about me, so either come and get to know me or be please be silent.
Have a great day!
Best Wishes,
Capt Ron 


I'd appreciate you editing your post to reflect a more professional and accurate opinion. I'm not the instructor who came up with either drill and your mouth is out of line.
I'm very forgiving. I understand youre not well informed. I will give you the opportunity to train with me and form an educated opinion about me or my instruction. If you feel the same way after meeting me you may tell the world based on your first hand knowledge, but right now your writing fighting words.
Is that what you want?? Let me know because I'm more than happy to set up a friendly gloved and head protected boxing sporting match, but based on your size that really wouldn't be fair now would it? I will call you out publically and legally with your command (active duty?) to settle any problem you may have with me personally or professionally if you insist.​ 
I'd prefer to have you get to know me in person and allow me the opportunity to change your mind about me.​ 
Think about it, I could snap you in half and knock the tattoos off your body, but I'd rather make you a friend. 
Forgive me as I have forgiven you if I sound a little harsh. I'm very emotional at the moment. My dog, best friend, and true love of my life of 8 years is dieing slowly in front of me of an unknown liver disease and I am helpless to do anything to stop it.​ 
Best Wishes,
Capt Ron 
__________________
Cheers,
Capt Ron Beermünder​ 
Email: [email protected]​

Cell: (850) 266-2325​ 
www.IWillNotBeAVictim.com​ 
"I miss because I push myself outside my comfort zone." ​​


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## scubapro

Wow, I feel cheated...he's never threatened me in his PMs... 

Amazing - a non-operator trying to school a real life operator with 15+ years experience in the field... Hang in there TRP, we know your background and experience.

Go easy on the former 6-pack "capt" - as Jack Nicholson stated, "he can't handle the truth"...


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## sniperpeeps

TheRoguePirate said:


> Let me know because I'm more than happy to set up a friendly gloved and head protected boxing sporting match, but based on your size that really wouldn't be fair now would it?


Sounds like something Kenny Powers would say


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## Az-Vic

Oh brother; good luck on the face to face Rogue. I couldn't pin the major down to a simple shooting match, where the only thing I was going to do, was take a hundred dollar bill from him. You now expect him to meet FTF, have a "discussion" then to have you put your boot in his big ass. Expect a couple more snips from the keyboard commando, Im sure they will be light hearted and obfuscatory, and then when he actually realizes your serious....he'll go so silent, all you'll hear is crickets


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## TheRoguePirate

yep, def not losing any sleep over it, thanks scuba. he is more of a simple amusement than any real threat. he also claims to be former EOD, im running his name now out in panama city to see if he actually graduated. 

His threats are idle, ive run into his kind before, like i said, ran into a clown shoe like him back in fort myers. not worth my time after i out him and all of his claims, more like a cat batting a string until i get bored.


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## glassplus

I feel cheated too.


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## Fig Newton

My only question is this one: What is he a Captain of/in? Boat Captain/Military Captain/East Milton Militia Captain/ Fire Department Captain???? Not being a smartass, I am just curious.


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## K-Bill

uhhh TRP, not sure if you haven't been around here long enough or you just haven't been paying attention - a lot of members have taken his class and i don't recall anything but positive feedback. why don't you go shoot with him one day instead of being a wanna-be tough guy keyboard cowboy. i don't know you - if scuba says you're legit i'll buy that - then just go shoot w/ ron instead of bickering on a forum. vic - i remember well what you're talking about - he no more hid from you than you did from him. all over some rules and technicalities. i'm still down to watch that match but yall gotta compromise somewhere on how to do it.


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## scubapro

Sam said:


> My only question is this one: What is he a Captain of/in? Boat Captain/Military Captain/East Milton Militia Captain/ Fire Department Captain???? Not being a smartass, I am just curious.


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=oG6k9sODCfo&NR=1


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## sniperpeeps

Capt Ron said:


> *That's why I'm the best at what I do*. I'm a culmination of my uniqueness and many instructors providing individualized training to each student on an personal and individual skills based level one on one.


:thumbup:


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## MikeH

i dont get it..ive personally taken capt rons class, and he is a super nice guy. i went with 3 of my good friends and we all had a blast and we ALL left much better shooters. isnt that the point? i think the people on here bashing him who hasnt taken his class, or possibly not even met him are toolbags. and about the pm he sent,i think its much better to pm somebody who you have a problem with like ron did, then just talk crap infront of your boy band friends. and posting his pm for the public to read? thats what school girls do..grow up..this isnt halloween


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## Fig Newton

MikeH said:


> i dont get it..ive personally taken capt rons class, and he is a super nice guy. i went with 3 of my good friends and we all had a blast and we ALL left much better shooters. isnt that the point? i think the people on here bashing him who hasnt taken his class, or possibly not even met him are toolbags. and about the pm he sent,i think its much better to pm somebody who you have a problem with like ron did, then just talk crap infront of your boy band friends. and posting his pm for the public to read? thats what school girls do..grow up..this isnt halloween


I have never met him nor bashed him. I just want to know why you call him Captain Ron and not Ron. Can anyone answer that question?


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## MikeH

i wasent refering to you sam..its easy to see whos doing the bashing..i think he has his boat captians liscense but do not know for sure


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## sniperpeeps

MikeH said:


> i dont get it..ive personally taken capt rons class, and he is a super nice guy. i went with 3 of my good friends and we all had a blast and we ALL left much better shooters. isnt that the point? i think the people on here bashing him who hasnt taken his class, or possibly not even met him are toolbags. and about the pm he sent,i think its much better to pm somebody who you have a problem with like ron did, then just talk crap infront of your boy band friends. and posting his pm for the public to read? thats what school girls do..grow up..this isnt halloween


Well, pretty much everyone one here that has real world experience has an issue with Ron and his claims, so that should speak a little about the credibility of us "boy band friends". Couldn't expect you to understand why Mike, it's just how it is.


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## jim t

I'm not a big gun guy... but if Special Forces use "aerobic fatigue" to simulate "stress", I'd buy off on it as the best simulation available.

I always wondered about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biathlon 

If I remember right from the Olympic commentary the shooters learn to shoot BETWEEN heartbeats because the heartbeat will put the round off target if you fire then. That is BS in my opinion. I will believe that the shooter will learn to calm himself despite a heart rate going 200 bps.

Seems the Norwegians started this to duplicate the stress of winter war fighting.

Jim


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## MikeH

Well you're right sniper peeps,i don't understand,and 'm not here to bash anybody. I don't know anyone on this forum, and I'm sure nobody knows me, so all i have to go by are the comments made here, and I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't want me judging them off just what they have said on a forum... I didnt take capt rons class to be a navy seal,i took it to become a better shooter, and to do some drills that better simulate a real self defense situation, than standing at a range and shooting paper in 2 second intervals. It was a huge success, and I can't wait to go back, and I can't help but think that other people would benefit from his class also. Everyone can have there opinion,i just feel like if more people have him a shot instead of jumping on a hate bandwagon they might change there mind.


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## K-Bill

MikeH said:


> Everyone can have there opinion,i just feel like if more people have him a shot instead of jumping on a hate bandwagon they might change there mind.


even if they don't change their mind at least they would know for sure instead of just assuming. the man runs a business and people are bashing him because his training is not exactly the same as a real life fire fight? give me a break... of course i'd laugh my tail off if they went out there and got embarrassed by someone they feel they are above. oh wait maybe that's why we sit online and talk crap instead of making an appt at the range. :thumbsup:


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## sniperpeeps

MikeH said:


> Well you're right sniper peeps,i don't understand,and 'm not here to bash anybody. I don't know anyone on this forum, and I'm sure nobody knows me, so all i have to go by are the comments made here, and I'm sure the majority of people wouldn't want me judging them off just what they have said on a forum... I didnt take capt rons class to be a navy seal,i took it to become a better shooter, and to do some drills that better simulate a real self defense situation, than standing at a range and shooting paper in 2 second intervals. It was a huge success, and I can't wait to go back, and I can't help but think that other people would benefit from his class also. Everyone can have there opinion,i just feel like if more people have him a shot instead of jumping on a hate bandwagon they might change there mind.


 
I have no doubt he runs a good class, I don't have an issue with his class or him personally, just some opinions that he has volunteered that I disagree with based on my knowledge and experience. And it is a little fun to get him worked up on occasion.....


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## sniperpeeps

K-Bill said:


> even if they don't change their mind at least they would know for sure instead of just assuming. the man runs a business and people are bashing him because his training is not exactly the same as a real life fire fight? give me a break... of course i'd laugh my tail off if they went out there and got embarrassed by someone they feel they are above. oh wait maybe that's why we sit online and talk crap instead of making an appt at the range. :thumbsup:


 
This is not a question of who can shoot better, that is actually irrelevent here. Ron's business is shooting pistols, I sure hope he would be a better pistol shot than me. Long guns would likely be a different story but again, it doesn't matter who can shoot better. This thread is an argument over the validity of implementing physical exertion in self defense training, not the tightest shot group.


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## scubapro

I think most objections are not based on the shooting ability of Ron - more the over-stated credentials, training & experience combined with somewhat outlandish claims...

One should not have to embellish in order to attract business - let the customer reviews (which appear to be consistently positive in this case) be the basis for one's business growth and self-worth.

Far more business opportunities may have come his way from gun shops, military, and law enforcement if his approach was different. Just an opinion on my part based upon the feedback I consistently observe when he comes up in conversation...

I expect Ron is a great person with the best of intentions - I would just have to limit my contact with him to "small doses" (as I'm sure others could feel about me too!)


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## TheRoguePirate

For those that wish to hate on me that is fine, its a public forum but the man your advocating has lied to you about all of his credentials.
He washed out of EOD, he quit training in the first few weeks on his own request.
His only job in the Navy was as a Parachute Rigger who spent 4 years aboard the Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier to be followed by 4 years here aboard NAS Pensacola and never with an EOD or speciliazed unit receiving any type of military weapons training EVER.
He is not an FDLE Instructor
He is not a Naui Dive instructor
He has no experience working or shooting with special forces
He has no formal training except a few patched together classes which anyone can pay to attend.
He has announced earlier in this thread that he was never trained by ayoob but has taken a perscription medication illegally.
He has defrauded 2 blood banks supposedly to drain his own blood risking a myocardial infarction due to hypovolemia.
He is reckless and dangerous in his tactics and training regiment. And the proof is in his website. If you would like to believe his lies about his credentials and ability to have you shoot one handed upside down on a balance ball (because that is realistic) or one handed while balancing on a perfect push up (because i would bust a round in someone for interupting my workout) then go ahead, atleast he has some hot chicas shooting at his place.
but if you would like to train with professionals with both experience and proven training and tactics that are higly credible and have government and LE contracts to train than I would look into Tier1Group or Viking Tactics. Who will be happy to show you all of their credentials, personal training jackets, actual certificates and liscences (without being photo shopped).

If not it is only a matter of time before one of his students believing in this fascade gets seriously injured or killed. That was all i was originally stating in my first post on here then yes, i posted his pm's to show the proffessional attitude he displays after someone says he sucks on a public web forum.


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## K-Bill

wow. dude do you need a hobby? wanna go play some golf or something this weekend? take a deep breath and relax. at the end of the day the guy is a shooting instructor with his own gun range. if he is licensed to run that business and operates it safely then great. if i shoot myself on his range guess who i'm blaming - me, not the instructor. yeah, it may not be the most advanced special forces seal team 6 training that an individual could possibly hope to get - but where else can you get anything like this locally. guess what - i'm not gonna NOT go take his class because he's not an FDLE instructor, or because he is. oh crap he's not a naui dive instructor (i don't even know what this is) - what a fake, he shouldn't be allowed to teach people how to shoot guns! relax dude...


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## scubapro

K-Bill said:


> . yeah, it may not be the most advanced special forces seal team 6 training that an individual could possibly hope to get - but where else can you get anything like this locally...


glassplus at his place, or mongoose at his private range - are two options in Santa Rosa County. Or, if Ron's place in Jeff Ates dirt pit (an operational dirt pit no less) works good for you - the option to keep going there is certainly doable.


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## Az-Vic

So Bill, if we then rule out his credentials to actually teach tactical stuff, which I could give a rats ass about anyway, and maj. ron is just a shooting instructor, lets dig and scratch into that for a moment. What personal shooting acheivements, such as IDPA classification, or IPSC classification, or any regional or national shooting titles does he have to demonstrate his skill level, and ability to teach it?
Merely having had conversations with those who have demonstrated a "known" skill level, does not impart that skill onto the recieving end of the conversation. Has the maj. competed in any national or international shooting competitions and captured any titles or placed high enough to warrant being called an instructor? 
None are so blind, as those who will not see.....


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## TheRoguePirate

I posted an opinion about what he wrote, was left at that, just a post on a public forum of my opinion, he sent me two pm's threatening physical danger to me. so now this is what it has become. If you want to get "Training" by someone who is not certified in anything to teach but makes false statments about his credentials than feel free. if you want to learn the proper way witout developing bad habbits than find someone who has proper experience and certifications. Would you want a crack head off the street teaching your children algebra or a teacher who is certified? would you want a retard providing life saving medical care to a loved one or yourself or a licenced doctor?


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## FrankwT

They say any advertisement is good advertisement but this has been a disaster to ole ronnie...I am betting not much of his business will come from here or the truly informed.


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## sniperpeeps

TheRoguePirate said:


> He washed out of EOD, he quit training in the first few weeks on his own request.
> His only job in the Navy was as a Parachute Rigger who spent 4 years aboard the Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier to be followed by 4 years here aboard NAS Pensacola and never with an EOD or speciliazed unit receiving any type of military weapons training EVER.
> He is not an FDLE Instructor
> He is not a Naui Dive instructor
> He has no experience working or shooting with special forces
> He has no formal training except a few patched together classes which anyone can pay to attend.
> He has announced earlier in this thread that he was never trained by ayoob but has taken a perscription medication illegally.
> He has defrauded 2 blood banks supposedly to drain his own blood risking a myocardial infarction due to hypovolemia.
> He is reckless and dangerous in his tactics and training regiment. And the proof is in his website. If you would like to believe his lies about his credentials and ability to have you shoot one handed upside down on a balance ball (because that is realistic) or one handed while balancing on a perfect push up (because i would bust a round in someone for interupting my workout) then go ahead, atleast he has some hot chicas shooting at his place.
> but if you would like to train with professionals with both experience and proven training and tactics that are higly credible and have government and LE contracts to train than I would look into Tier1Group or Viking Tactics. Who will be happy to show you all of their credentials, personal training jackets, actual certificates and liscences (without being photo shopped).
> 
> If not it is only a matter of time before one of his students believing in this fascade gets seriously injured or killed. That was all i was originally stating in my first post on here then yes, i posted his pm's to show the proffessional attitude he displays after someone says he sucks on a public web forum.


TRP, U da man....I had to call out a guy a while back who told me he went to sniper school in 2004.....you know the military keeps pretty good records on stuff like that and if you know the right folks all it takes is a phone call. 

CR, you don't have to lie to kick it brother. I can tell just from your PM's you are a nice guy but why lie about that stuff above?? As one of your clients stated, most folks coming to your class don't give a rats ass about credentials, they just want some training. I just don't get it. Folks that lie about what they did in the military to make themselves look or sound cool, wtf? :thumbdown:

I'm curious as to what Ron has to say for himself.


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## FrankwT

It really pisses me off when people lie about their Military Service and Accomplishments!


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## Capt Ron

The Rogue pirate says "_My experience is 15 Years of Marine Corps infantry and Special Forces time."
_Then he tells me he is not a marine?
Who is this guy? Can anybody tell me is name or where he works??
So we have a character that could be a Navy Corpsman?


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## scubapro

Ron, ranting/whining to his command will serve no purpose. That is the only reason you want his name & where he works.

Are you going to say what he's offered concerning you is untrue? Remember, it's not libel/slander if the statements are true...

Did you complete EOD school - or did you DoR?

Do you have a current Captain's license? Have you ever had a license?

Are you a NAUI dive instructor in good standing? Were you ever an instructor?

At this point, I think the "contest" with TRP is best left alone - you have better things to spend your time doing now...

BTW, the zoning at glassplus's place is fine - so you can't try to cause him any grief either.


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## bama99

Well you Capt. Ron bashers have proven to be dedicated to the cause I will give you all that much. Why the obsession with trying to discredit him? If you are going to openly call someone a liar you should at least have the nads to tell them your name. Why not tell the board who you are and who you talked to "verify" Ron's military record. It's outright character assassination.:thumbdown:


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## Az-Vic

While he compiles his "tactical" qualification list, please add any information concerning your qualifications to be a "shooting instructor". List any titles, ie; regional,state,national or international matches you have won or placed high in.
Are you a member of IDPA, IPSC, USPSA,IRC....any shooting organization where you've participated in competitions testing skill at arms, speed,accuracy. Just looking for some small nut of information that would lead me to believe you have any bonified experience and tested skill in the arena of pistol or revolver shooting?


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## scubapro

bama99 said:


> Why not tell the board who you are and who you talked to "verify" Ron's military record.


Maybe Ron will answer the direct questions up above & set the record straight - that is if it is incorrect...


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## FrankwT

bama99 said:


> Well you Capt. Ron bashers have proven to be dedicated to the cause I will give you all that much. Why the obsession with trying to discredit him? If you are going to openly call someone a liar you should at least have the nads to tell them your name. Why not tell the board who you are and who you talked to "verify" Ron's military record. It's outright character assassination.:thumbdown:



*I don't work any longer, so no one can "hurt" me..want my name, CWL, social and DD-214?

I actually have not bashed Ron, of course if it is true then it can't be "character assassination" . But just what he himself has written in PFF, no other comments considered, I would have NO use for his course and could not recommend it..*


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## glassplus

Just for the record, Ron has my ph # and my name,I have spoke to him , He told my that he has changed his bio to that he has had a CJM course,from being a FDLE Inst.
Any one with some good shooting skills and add in a little some thing difference to do can impress some people that don't know any thing else. I know I have been Inst. for more then 15 years.I'm always learning some thing new. But I have never used drugs, blood letting, are any other wizard thing to try and make my self look good, if that is what is called. I,m not hiding behind any thing Just my 1 cents jj


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## TheRoguePirate

i am not bashing him, only his creds. i called Navy EOD School and spoke to a chief petty officer who's name is not going to be posted. they have paddles on the wall of all graduating classes with their names. his name was not found on any paddle. they dug further and found his history. the military is big on this thing called "stolen honor". 
Same with his claim of dive instructor, I called the training department at Naui, the stated he was no longer active. took 10 min, but i am not a sheep like some of you, i dont blindly follow, i do my homework. when something is too good to be true, usually is.
Ron and i are even going to meet up if im free this weekend to discuss in face to face setting. this is not between me and the world but him and i. I only posted the facts as they were revealed to me, you can do the same. I sincerely hope that after all of this him and I could have a truce or better yet friends. I would expect anyone that makes false claims to be outed. 
I have no professional shooting championships that i have won, but i am bad ass at call of duty and carry a higher kill to death ration than most 8 year olds. I am an average shooter and have met and served with some that i feel i was not worthy to be in the room with. there are many people better than me, i dont claim to be anything fancy no matter where ive been or what ive done. that is not what this was about, only correcting false advertising and educating the masses. so before you call me a character assasin, make some phone calls for yourself clown shoe...smiley face


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## Capt Ron

I shared my thoughts and opinions with you about this training exercise conducted by world famous firearms instructor Massad Ayoob, a competitive shooter, active law enforcement officer, he even killed a few guys with real bullets. He has all the credentials you people boast about and demand. 

I appreciate all the sincere concern you had about my life during these super dooper dangerous blood and epi exercises. I'm just happy I didn't know how dangerous it was donating blood in the past all those times for just a sugar cookie and jamming epi's in my leg since I first learned I became allergic to bee stings at 18 years of age. I have also experienced anaphylactic shock, but unfortunately never while shooting, so I can not report to you the best way to shoot while an elephant is sitting on your chest and youre suffocating to death. I'm sure I can work something out with my soon to be new drinking friend and Navy Corpsman _theroguepirate_ to conduct some anaphylactic firearms training under the supervision of a medical professional. My latest allergy for my PFF Bio Fans is Pine Nuts. I love them, but like most of you they want me dead.

This is the man, Massad Ayoob that came up with the Dracula Drill and epi drill. As a student in this class you get to kill a large animal and follow the wound path! Yummy!!!! I'm smelling bacon. I really don't think I could kill an animal large or small for the sake of following a wound path. I'm just a local firearms instructor trying out other drills from prominent instructors on myself, noone else, not apart of any of my training for my students, not that I would ever need something so gimmicky to train people. Why would I? I have Bosu balls and an inversion rack.  I shared with you the results of my testing and got jumped by members. I'm not here for the attackers. I'm here for my students and for the members who contribute to bring the forum to a higher level of intercourse. 

From Massad Ayoob's website, his Dracula Drill. Some of you including _ScubaPro _are traveling and paying money to train with Massad Ayoob. Mas was also a visiting evaluating Glock instructor for Escambia County sheriffs office when they switched over to Glocks or were considering doing so. I read it and saw him with our deputies on the ECSO range. Jerome might have been there when Mas was there, so I will let GlassPlus talk about Massad Ayoob if he has first hand knowledge. 

http://www.ayoob.com/lfi4.html

Below is a description of the course offered by this legendary firearms instructor.

*LFI-IV*

*Tuition $1500.00*

_Lethal Force Institute's most advanced program. Mastery of handgun retention advances to instructor level, and on the last day you will train career cops in this critical survival skill, and certify them yourselves. Mastery of the Kubotan/Persuader you learned in LFI-III advances to instructor level also, and you will teach a class and certify the students. Shooting progresses to an extremely fast level: quad speed qualification,_
_And "impossibly high standards," two courses of fire that have never been Maxed (shot 100% ) by ANYONE. (At one LFI-IV, IPSC's "double duty standards III" was won by a student with a higher score than Rob Leatham shot that year at the Single Stack Challenge; the same year, the Hackathorn Standards were won at LFI-IV with a higher score than what won the same event at the National Tactical Invitational that year. _
_Each student will kill a large animal with his/her carry gun and load, and then participate in its post-mortem dissection to see what the bullet did. Feedback from the previous 40 graduates indicates that this may be the single most profound exercise in the program._
_LFI-IV is where we "go beyond the envelope." It was here that we injected people with epinephrine and monitored their vital signs as they shot double speed to replicate full-blown fight or flight response in 1998. It was here that we did the "Dracula Drill," draining a pint of blood from each student immediately prior to them shooting a qualification while experiencing blood loss. We won't tell you what 2001 brings…until you get there. Suffice to say the tradition will continue. Now you know why we only offer it once every three years…_


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## tonyd

last line in this ad is from 2000. ron this bs is about your creds back them up or back away


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## Az-Vic

So the answers to the myriad of questions asked, concerning your credentials as either a "tactical instructor" or as a "shooting instructor" are answered where?
I think you just gave the inquiring PFF members minds a dose of your "higher level of intercourse"....


As an aside, I wish you would correct your sig line maj. ron, it should rightly read;

"I miss, because my sights weren't aligned when I pressed the trigger"
Contrary to what you scribble on your web site, shooting is NOT a science,and you the scientist....shooting is simple fundamentals, only made difficult by those who fail to adhere to them


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## scubapro

Oh my, the hole is getting deeper... You really expect us to believe that you ACTUALLY conducted the "Dracula drill" (except that you were 2 pints low) and the "epi drill" yourself?

I figured it was more BS from what you had read online - or watched on video. .i don't believe it - that you actually did it yourself. I especially don't believe that you actually gave up 2 pints of blood on the same day... I call BS!

Now, you're claiming to have a history of anaphylaxis due to bee stings since the age of 18 - and expect us to believe that you wouldn't have been disqualified medically for such by the military to participate in something as strenuous & demanding as EOD dive school?? Really?

Will the BS ever cease?

TRP isn't the only medically trained member here - and I say you are full of BS to continue this line of crap after you've been caught and called out. The dishonesty has reached the level of being pathological - where you actually believe your own lies...


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## Capt Ron

SCUBAPRO
-PM sent


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## TheRoguePirate

I will support Capt ron there, you can have allergies to bee stings and pass an NSW (Naval Special Warfare) physical which is required for EOD students as long as they receive a waiver from BUMED. This is contained in the MANMED Chapter 15 section 105 NSW Physicals.


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## scubapro

Capt Ron said:


> SCUBAPRO
> -PM sent


Ron, you should have posted it on the forum - I yawned reading it...


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## scubapro

TheRoguePirate said:


> I will support Capt ron there, you can have allergies to bee stings and pass an NSW (Naval Special Warfare) physical which is required for EOD students as long as they receive a waiver from BUMED. This is contained in the MANMED Chapter 15 section 105 NSW Physicals.


It's nice to know they allow waivers these days. When I was at Auburn in the AFROTC, a history of hay fever or uncorrected vision of 20/40 could keep you out of the cockpit - with waivers only rarely given. But then, I was in college during the Carter military draw-down...

It's horrible when someone washes out of a program - but to be given a waiver, only to drop out...a tragedy.


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## Murphy's Law

scubapro said:


> Ron, you should have posted it on the forum - I yawned reading it...


LOL, Now you got to post it ! Makes for a good read 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forum Runner


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## bama99

scubapro said:


> It's nice to know they allow waivers these days. When I was at Auburn in the AFROTC, a history of hay fever or uncorrected vision of 20/40 could keep you out of the cockpit - with waivers only rarely given. But then, I was in college during the Carter military draw-down...
> 
> It's horrible when someone washes out of a program - but to be given a waiver, only to drop out...a tragedy.



A Barner! That explains the delusions of grandeur. Every damn aubie I've ever known has an inferiority complex and is always looking to discredit others accomplishments. You guys really need to get over the fact that Alabama is your DADDY and has been, is, and will always be superior to Auburn in Academics, Football, and just about everything else. After a few years of molesting livestock people are just never the same I guess. Strange things that happen in the loveliest little cow pasture on the plains.


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## scubapro

At least I'm an alumni - unlike the 99.9% of 'bama fans who are merely "dirt road alumni" - wishing they had the smarts to get accepted into
any university or school of higher learning in the State of Alabama...

Did you actually attend Alabama? Make it for more than a semester?


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## bama99

scubapro said:


> At least I'm an alumni - unlike the 99.9% of 'bama fans who are merely "dirt road alumni" - wishing they had the smarts to get accepted into
> any university or school of higher learning in the State of Alabama...
> 
> Did you actually attend Alabama? Make it for more than a semester?


Well every University has those and I don't deny ours. Somebody has to buy all those smack-talk T-shirts. Everybody loves a winner so it's not surprising that Alabama would have more than it's fair share of non-alumni fans. In reality Alabama Football became a great source of pride for the South in the 20's and 30's. They went out to the Rose Bowl a huge underdog and kicked some but and the rest is history. Many southern families have passed down the tradition of rooting for Alabama Football since. 

I graduated in 99 from the Culverhouse College of Commerce and Business Administration with a Finance Degree. So yes I'm a proud alumnis of the University of Alabama. In reality I have to admit that I have several Auburn buddies. You graduates are a lot easier to stomach than the dirt-road alumni I'll give you that. I also admire the secrecy you guys swear an oath to on the all the barnyard stuff. Rivals the skull & bones guys at Yale. What's the motto: "Keep it Down Home Cuz"?


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## scubapro

bama99 said:


> Well every University has those and I don't deny ours. Somebody has to buy all those smack-talk T-shirts. Everybody loves a winner so it's not surprising that Alabama would have more than it's fair share of non-alumni fans. In reality Alabama Football became a great source of pride for the South in the 20's and 30's. They went out to the Rose Bowl a huge underdog and kicked some but and the rest is history. Many southern families have passed down the tradition of rooting for Alabama Football since.
> 
> I graduated in 99 from the Culverhouse College of Commerce and Business Administration with a Finance Degree. So yes I'm a proud alumnis of the University of Alabama. In reality I have to admit that I have several Auburn buddies. You graduates are a lot easier to stomach than the dirt-road alumni I'll give you that. I also admire the secrecy you guys swear an oath to on the all the barnyard stuff. Rivals the skull & bones guys at Yale. What's the motto: "Keep it Down Home Cuz"?


bama99,

I think it was the greek that fraternized with the livestock... I wasn't a fraternity puke -- so I can't speak with knowledge of the subject...

I was too busy doing the Air Force thing -- and spending late nights in the Engineering building to do much of anything else during my years on the Plains.

Yes, we do have a few "dirt road alumni" rooting for Auburn as well -- but far less than 'bama. The State of Alabama is fortunate to have two excellent major universities -- with a healthy rivalry to top it off.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Harvey "Almoron" Updyke makes it to trial. I think he will look excellent in an AU orange jumpsuit while he resides in the Lee County Jail!


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## Lloyd

Raving about credentials is one thing, the fact of the matter is, if someone is wanting to learn good self defense shooting, Ron teaches it in his own way,

I could care less if he is certified by jesus christ, rob pincus, or magpul, does not matter, you arent spending $1500 on a class from him so for what you pay its great training at a great facility with a guy who CAREs about teaching you, not just sending you on your way like a gun show cert.


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## MikeH

I have a great idea! I have already took rons class and don estys class and really enjoyed them both and my shooting dramatically improved. But to be fair, anyone else who wants to train me,i will attend there classes also. (for free of course, because this is a scientific evaluation) and I will post my unbiased thoughts back here on the forum...sounds like a good idea,huh?


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## WW2

WTH, I posted on a totally different thread and my post ended up here. lol.... edited for that reason.


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## Lloyd

lol ww2 went thru a wormhole


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## WW2

Lloyd said:


> lol ww2 went thru a wormhole


 
wouldn't be my first time.


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## sniperpeeps

Ron, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. And so you know, I was researching the Treyvon Martin case for school and happened to find this recording. I do happen to agree with some of the stuff you had to say in this recording Ron, but the false accolades for your introduction are downright ridiculous. And you are the only full time firearms instructor in Florida? Hmm, that's weird because I know several. 

http://archive.org/details/Trp41312 

I recommend starting to listen at 32:00, so Ol Capt Ron went through Special Forces training and trained Navy seals......wow. Ron, which team did you "train" as a PR2? I know several folks over in NSW and a couple guys who are no longer in. Does Chris Kyle ring a bell? I could check with him. I like how you make a point to say that "I'm not a SEAL because there is a law against impersonating a SEAL". Ha, I bet you know that law well. Unbelievable man. I think you have a lying problem man.

Best quote-" I have worked with SEALS, trained with SEALS, and trained SEALS"...


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## WW2

sniperpeeps said:


> Ron, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. And so you know, I was researching the Treyvon Martin case for school and happened to find this recording. I do happen to agree with some of the stuff you had to say in this recording Ron, but the false accolades for your introduction are downright ridiculous. And you are the only full time firearms instructor in Florida? Hmm, that's weird because I know several.
> 
> http://archive.org/details/Trp41312
> 
> I recommend starting to listen at 32:00, so Ol Capt Ron went through Special Forces training and trained Navy seals......wow. Ron, which team did you "train" as a PR2? I know several folks over in NSW and a couple guys who are no longer in. Does Chris Kyle ring a bell? I could check with him. I like how you make a point to say that "I'm not a SEAL because there is a law against impersonating a SEAL". Ha, I bet you know that law well. Unbelievable man. I think you have a lying problem man.
> 
> Best quote-" I have worked with SEALS, trained with SEALS, and trained SEALS"...


 
Well, here's the thing about training. I was a Data Processing Technician (DP) when I was in. I worked with SEALS and I trained SEALS..... To use computers. 

He could have trained them to do just about anything and it might not have anything to do with what SEALS do. Is it truth? Yes. Is it honest? No. So, he may not have exactly been lying.


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## TheRoguePirate

sniperpeeps said:


> Ron, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. And so you know, I was researching the Treyvon Martin case for school and happened to find this recording. I do happen to agree with some of the stuff you had to say in this recording Ron, but the false accolades for your introduction are downright ridiculous. And you are the only full time firearms instructor in Florida? Hmm, that's weird because I know several.
> 
> http://archive.org/details/Trp41312
> 
> I recommend starting to listen at 32:00, so Ol Capt Ron went through Special Forces training and trained Navy seals......wow. Ron, which team did you "train" as a PR2? I know several folks over in NSW and a couple guys who are no longer in. Does Chris Kyle ring a bell? I could check with him. I like how you make a point to say that "I'm not a SEAL because there is a law against impersonating a SEAL". Ha, I bet you know that law well. Unbelievable man. I think you have a lying problem man.
> 
> Best quote-" I have worked with SEALS, trained with SEALS, and trained SEALS"...


 
Ron for president 2012:thumbsup:


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## sniperpeeps

WW2 said:


> Well, here's the thing about training. I was a Data Processing Technician (DP) when I was in. I worked with SEALS and I trained SEALS..... To use computers.
> 
> He could have trained them to do just about anything and it might not have anything to do with what SEALS do. Is it truth? Yes. Is it honest? No. So, he may not have exactly been lying.



What he is doing is falsifying the nature of his military training in order to deceive clients into thinking that his military training has anything to do with his qualifications as a pistol/self defense instructor. It is disrespectful to people who have actually done these things to claim this. It is false advertisement to clients to claim these things. Just listen to the introduction in that audio file at 32 minutes....it is Fing BS. I am not attacking his business, his class, or anything like that. I have a serious problem with this kind of thing and it is not like Ron is the first or last to do it. 

What if this happened? Someone in the Army goes through SFAS "Special Forces Assessment and Selection" while active duty and fails or DOR's. Said person gets out and opens a firearms training facility. This person then claims to be Special Forces qualified in order to attract more clients and to seem a more qualified instructor, when in fact they were not SF qualified and never were. This person touts themselves as training with SF and uses it as one of many selling points to attract clients. Would that be ethical? I do not think so.

It is disrespectful to the men who really have these accomplishments that he claims that he has them as well. In fact, in the bio that Ron PM'd me, it says nothing of any Special Forces training or SEAL training and he specifically states that he in fact did not finish EOD school. Funny he asked me not to open post the bio that he PM'd me...I wonder why. Probably hard to keep up with who has been told what lies.

Ron, did you receive any specialized firearms training in the Navy other than basic marksmanship classes? Do you have proof of these things? I mean, this is seriously ridiculous. If you had any specialized training, you will have a diploma or certificate of some sort. I still have my sniper school diploma as well as the many other certificates and diplomas I got while active and it is something that people save. Your DD 214 would reflect these accomplishments as well.


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## bama99

The thread that won't die. I liked the interview. The host really got his feelings hurt at the end when he hung up on Ron. He was doing exactly what he was accusing Capt. Ron of doing is the ironic thing. Then he made the comment about I probably have more military training then this guy.

Why is everyone so obsessed with what level of military training an instructor has? When we took Ron's class his military history never even came up. The number one most important thing that a civilian ccw license holder needs to understand is how to avoid having to use a gun in the first place. Ron was making the same point I've been saying and some just get their panties in a bunch and think any criticism of Zimmerman means you support Trayvon's violent actions.

Carrying a gun does come with an awesome responsibility. Zimmerman left the car completely unprepared to deal with physical confrontation. If it got physical the gun was going to come into play. He should have realized his limits and stayed in the car. By his own admission the guy was suspicious. Someone who knew they had the ability and tools to deal with an aggressive attack would have been more justified in getting out with the purpose of not losing sight of him. Zim should have known from the get go that once he left the safe confines of his car there was a good chance of confrontation.

He is still protected under Florida Law and should and probably will be found not guilty. That doesn't mean what he did was the smartest thing in the world and should be celebrated. I agree that punks and thugs should get the message that putting your hands on someone is unacceptable and they very well may shoot you dead, but CCW license holders don't need to be looking for opportunities to prove the point.

I think Capt. Ron's take on the Zimmerman case proves his competence as an instructor. We can all argue shooting skills and military experience till the cows come home. The facts are that Capt. Ron is more than capable of teaching someone how to deploy a firearm in a self-defense situation. His training and emphasis on how to avoid having to do it sets him apart from the commando wanna be types. 

As a citizen of Florida, CCW license holder, and supporter of gun rights I care about the mindset other CCW license holders and their level of training. I'm not talking about how proficient they are with their guns either. I am talking about their mindset on engagement. I agree with Capt. Ron's philosophy on this and think we need more instructors making the point. Unfortunately too many show students how to shoot a little and never really approach the subject.


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## sniperpeeps

Bama, like I said, I agreed with some of the stuff he had to say in regards to Treyvon Martin and George Zimmerman. Also, not attacking his business, class he teaches, or anything like that. I am sure he teaches a fine CCW class. I have a serious problem with people lying about their military service. I used that clip to illustrate how Ron is dishonest about his military service. Like I said earlier, at the very least it is unethical and disrespectful to those who have actually accomplished these things and I'm not real familiar with the lying about military records thing, but I am pretty sure it can get you into real trouble.

And no one would be obsessed with how much military training he had if it wasn't all over his website and something he used as a marketing tool. It would be a non issue if he never lied about it. That radio host didn't just come up with that introduction, he either got it off of Ron's website or Ron directly gave him that introduction. Out of that whole intro, the only thing Ron disputed was that he "was not a SEAL" because there is a law against impersonating them.


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## Capt Ron

I tried to let this thread die..
I have never claimed an untruth.
I'm a bad ass you nay sayers are meow meows.

Who wants to box Capt Ron? I see alotta accusations by wanna-be forum fighters. Now's everybody's chance to put out?
I can shoot and box, and wrestle and sew. I'm a Navy trained seamstress and that's all I need to whoop these meow meows.

I think I hear meow, meow, meow, meow..
let's roll fellas? who's in we can sell tickets for charity and make it all legal.
I have to keep it all legal... any takers? meow meow meow...
Fight or shut up coward sissy forum fighters!


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## sniperpeeps

Capt Ron said:


> I tried to let this thread die..
> 
> Who wants to box Capt Ron? I see alotta accusations. but nothing but wanna be forum fighters. Nows everybody's chance to putout?
> I can shoot and box, and wrestle and sew.
> 
> I think I hear meow, meow, meow, meow..
> let's roll fellas? who's in we can sell tickets for charity and make it all legal.
> I have to keep it all legal... any takers? meow meow meow...
> Fight or shut up coward sissy forum fighters!


This isn't about fighting Ron, very professional and mature attitude there. Why don't you put up and shut up. How about not lying about your military service? How about not putting false military training on your website? See, I have trained SF, SEALS, TACP's, Border Patrol, Rangers, and regular army soldiers. I have worked with SF, SEALS, Rangers, Marine's, ANGLICO, etc on REAL WORLD MISSIONS. I helped carry out two terribly wounded SEALS during a mission that I was on with them. So, it pisses me the F off when I know someone is lying about doing something that I and many others worked so hard for.


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