# Personal observations for non-divers



## Billybob+

Hey Folks, below are my personal observations, they're antidotal only!

I've been diving a few years now and I try to dive only small artificial stuff. I get asked periodically by people what wrecks to build and where. This is my personal observations. This is antidotal only.
First, let me begin with the Steel Pyramids with the 8-12 inch steel lattice. I personally wish I knew where everyone of those where....so I'd never accidentally dive one again. My observations: they hold 1-2 BIG snapper, lots of super tiny snapper and lots of very short Jacks, Are there exceptions, I'm sure. Once I dove one in 155 feet and it had one decent grouper. Just one...and lot's of....you guessed it.....tiny little snapper. We shot the grouper so to the best of my knowledge it now holds ONLY tiny little snapper. My Personal favorite: School Buses or Conversion Vans. especially after they've aged some. Once they start to settle into the sand, they form caves that grouper love. My personal observation is, if you want grouper, give them a "cave" with a sand bottom. They love it. some examples of where I've seen my best grouper are a Conversion Van in 145. to the SSE. a School Bus ROOF...that's right, a roof only. it had a relief of 1 foot or less, almost impossible to see on the bottom machine but the grouper had dug out from under it forming a 3 foot tall cave and it was loaded with shooters. 
other favorites are old boat hulls, one of the best was one loaded with shopping carts that'd hit and landed upside down with one side being supported by the carts, forming...yep, a cave, Saw some quality grouper off of that one for years until one day I took some newbies out there and they stuck their heads under it trying to get a better look. they exhaled enough air that it flipped it and while it was still quite large, it didn't change the size at all, it no longer had the cave and never held grouper again. Also, had a bit ole Chevy 4 door sedan that landed upside down with no trunk lid so the trunk section now formed a cave. More of the same, lots and lots of grouper. I have seen exceptions to this, once I found a "bread rack", very similar to a chicken coop but bigger, I didn't have the total "cover" nor the "cave" but I saw some huge gag there. Never did figure that one out. The most grouper I've EVER seen on a single spot (with the exception of the when the hurricane came through in the early 90's and blew them in all the way to Rod and Reel Pier, was on Tires, nothing but tires, and hundreds of them!

The number was one that a buddy of mine had gotten from a close friend of his who was a Charter Captain. He'd wanted it dove to see WHAT on Earth could hold so many grouper...in 120 feet of water at that! It turned out to be auto tires, probably about 150-200. to this date, they still make as good as anything for reef other then they sand up bad. (or was ashore on RARE occasions in hurricanes)

Another good grouper wreck I've seen recently is a fiberglass "dome" maybe the end of a 1000 gallon tank cut off. Had holes about 1-2 ft in diameter cut in various places for entry and exit holes. Looked kinda like an igloo on the bottom. and awesome spot!

even chicken coops which seem to be one of the most favorable reefs of recent can be drastically altered by HOW it lands, shelves horizontal or vertical. Then add some CHEAP flagging, like polypropylene rope with a float, maybe even 20-30 feet or more off the bottom and it woiuld AMAZE you at the difference in fish species.

I saw another thread here were a fella had built and deployed a reef which he'd obviously spent MUCH time and energy to deploy and I applaud that but at the same time, with just a few modifications, I believe it could've easily doubled it's fish production. 

it was a Pipe Frame, but as pictured I saw nowhere for bait to hide which I believe is essential for population growth. Bait seem to like small crevices to escape predator fish. I remember an old timer gave me a number for a boat hull that he'd said was OUT OF THIS WORLD for snapper. At the time, it was. It wasn't in a super secret spot it wasn't on superior bottom type for snapper (and types of bottoms could be another three page post as in what type to pick for which species)
it had one "secret" weapon, He'd found some old antique bed springs. You know, the exposed kind with no cloth. THAT was his secret. and they were LOADED with minnows. The minnows couldn't leave by much without risk of being eaten and the snapper couldn't get to them. so it made the reef more of an equal playing field.

so to sum it all up, for grouper and in my opinion ONLY. you want a wreck that gives 100% overhead protection with a sand bottom and multiple escape routes.

Hope some of this seems useful to you fishermen. Other factors to consider which I didn't mention here include bottom type (Sandy, muddy, rocky, shells) and depth, and even direction East vs West out of the pass and time of year, not just for weather patterns of what you can reach but how the fish move about with the change in temperature.


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## Eastern Tackle

This is an awesome post. I can't believe it has been up so long without props? 

So ..Thanks for sharing.!!! Awesome.


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## Billybob+

Thanks man!

My thought is, if people are going to invest the time and energy in building new spots they should make them the best they can be!




Eastern Tackle said:


> This is an awesome post. I can't believe it has been up so long without props?
> 
> So ..Thanks for sharing.!!! Awesome.


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## snake 166

May be anecdotal but when collected by an unbiased trained observer can be very valuable. Also when a number of observers concur with yours, they at some point become facts. Beyond reasonable doubt.

The pyramids with steel panels (I think they are called Florida Specials by Walter Marine) are like snowflakes. The openings in the panels depend of the shape and size of the objects cut out of the panel---bush hog blades, squares, rectangles etc. Not all are created equal. In my experience, the limestone panels are superior at least for snapper. In several years of fishing both types, I have caught a handful of gags and 2 red grouper so I would concur that they are not grouper friendly. However there are some other pyramids with circular openings in concrete panels that have over the years sunk into the bottom so only maybe half of the pyramid is exposed. We have taken bunches of gags off these pyramids even though they are tiny. Reference your comments about low relief and small size like tires.

Gags are few and far between in our area especially close to the pass. Go to the Destin Log and look at the fish pictures from the charter fleet and you will see lots of mingos, AJs, bunches of white snappers (red porgies) and very few gags. It will likely take a close call with a hurricane to get red and gag grouper back in numbers. The west panhandle lacks the grass beds to produce lots of juvenile gags and we don't have a clear path for growth and transfer from shallow to deep water

Thanks for the report and maybe others will come on here with their anecdotal comments.


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## SaltAddict

I agree with this. Grouper love cover and sandy bottom. I've seen I-beam pyramids with zero grouper. I've seen the same structure with the addition of tires on the vertical beams and several grouper. I've smashed my ear in the sand looking under some of the public wrecks, just enough opening to get a flashlight and an eyeball under. There they are. I'm scared to shoot them for fear of not getting them (or my spear) back out. 
I also agree with the "bed spring" theory. Bait fish do need a shelter from the larger predatory fish. 

Adding the rope fad to the structure will bring AJ, and Pelagics which would never stop there without it. 

Just my humble observations added to what has the makings of a great thread.


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## Russian

Awesome info, thanks for taking the time to collect and share.


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## Collard

Wirelessly posted (Not the droid youre lookin for)

This is interesting. Not being a diver I still enjoy what everyone else sees and does down there.


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## Capt. Delynn

I would have to agree 100%. There is just a few things that would make some of these wreck go from ok to 5 star. I fish a lot and dive a little. I would have to say this post is hitting the nail on the head. Wish they would post this at all the reef permitting offices. We would need half the wrecks out there, but there would be twice as many fish.


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## snake 166

You are right about too many reefs in a small area. We finally got some small areas permitted for reefs off Destin---they are 1 mile square. The problem is that they are oversaturated with Florida Specials and Limestone Walter's modules. Apparently it is much easier to get grants for reefs than get large areas permitted. Based on my experience I think the minimum spacing between artificial reefs is at least 1000 ft. Snapper especially need plenty of real estate for forage grounds and only use the reefs for shelter and an assembly point for spawning.

There are very large areas off the Panhandle that have no natural reefs. They are not used by any other user group such as shrimpers so there is no reason why they should not be permitted for artificial reefs. We all know how successful the program has been in Alabama which has over 1000 square miles permitted. When I looked into this several years ago I was told that the areas already permitted were underexploited----as though some underling in the CORP knew more about snapper biology that the scientific community. Fishermen don't use the permitted areas because their spots will be found in no time by others to lazy to drop their own reefs.

We have a chance now to use some BP money to finally quantify the extent of natural reefs using side scan sonar. Then to follow that up with research to better understand how reef size, design and spacing should be optimized for various species of reef fish.


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## Billybob+

Man, you make some excellent points!

I know areas were there are at LEAST 5 different chicken coops within a couple hundred yards of each other.

One thing about reefs they are a quasi biosphere and they can only support so much life, it might be trigger, it might be snapper, it might be grouper ....heck it might even be lionfish!

From my experience, even the best reefs will hold only the fish that it can draw bait to sustain. 

when you have reefs so closely populated, as you pointed out, then you'll supersaturate the area

And Capt Delynn, I've seen your hauls of fish!! thanks for the kind words! Don't suppose you'd share one or two to those GROUPER spots?:whistling:



snake 166 said:


> You are right about too many reefs in a small area. We finally got some small areas permitted for reefs off Destin---they are 1 mile square. The problem is that they are oversaturated with Florida Specials and Limestone Walter's modules. Apparently it is much easier to get grants for reefs than get large areas permitted. Based on my experience I think the minimum spacing between artificial reefs is at least 1000 ft. Snapper especially need plenty of real estate for forage grounds and only use the reefs for shelter and an assembly point for spawning.
> 
> There are very large areas off the Panhandle that have no natural reefs. They are not used by any other user group such as shrimpers so there is no reason why they should not be permitted for artificial reefs. We all know how successful the program has been in Alabama which has over 1000 square miles permitted. When I looked into this several years ago I was told that the areas already permitted were underexploited----as though some underling in the CORP knew more about snapper biology that the scientific community. Fishermen don't use the permitted areas because their spots will be found in no time by others to lazy to drop their own reefs.
> 
> We have a chance now to use some BP money to finally quantify the extent of natural reefs using side scan sonar. Then to follow that up with research to better understand how reef size, design and spacing should be optimized for various species of reef fish.


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## Instant Karma

"ole Chevy 4 door sedan"

How long has it been since cars were legal?


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## Billybob+

Everything Changed with Opal.

Mostly because of tires getting washed up on the beach. 

you know, the current houses on the beach will generate far more litter the next Ivan or Opal than a few spots out in the gulf but it's like everything else. the good ole gubberment knows best...cause they only hire geniuses!

I even saw a El Camino out there once!

I remember the day that anytime anyone found some new natural bottom like in the 21 hole area, Green's Hole, Mystery Hole or even Trysler and Timber Holes...it was ALWAYS...ALWAYS a SUBMARINE!

I can't tell you how many people had me dive submarines and thought I was a lowlife for coming up and "Lying" to them by telling them it was natural bottom!!


by the way...you should SEE all the cool WWII relics I have all over my house :blink:


Instant Karma said:


> "ole Chevy 4 door sedan"
> 
> How long has it been since cars were legal?


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## Instant Karma

I had David Walter deploy several junked cars back in the day. Nothing would hold fish like a junked car.


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## Billybob+

That must be the Captain of the ole Reefmaker out of Orange Beach huh?

My personal favorite was tire piles Tied TIGHT together or cars that landed upside down. Believe it or not, if ;they landed right side up the just didn't produce as well.



Instant Karma said:


> I had David Walter deploy several junked cars back in the day. Nothing would hold fish like a junked car.


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## Bodupp

Speaking of cars as reefs, back in the day I remember seeing an old rusted car on 98 in Destin with a bumper sticker that read, "IT AIN"T A REEF YET!"


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## FishEyeMaps

snake 166 said:


> We have a chance now to use some BP money to finally quantify the extent of natural reefs using side scan sonar. Then to follow that up with research to better understand how reef size, design and spacing should be optimized for various species of reef fish.


That is very cool! 

We are side-scan mapping natural reef complexes from Navarre to the Alabama line, from shore out to about 35 miles. Let me know if you would like to compare notes.


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## snake 166

That's great. You should look into getting a grant. I know you have a good SSS. Get the habitat distribution/area then figure out how the fish use it. They sure as hell don't nibble away on barnacles!!!!! Well maybe a few do. But not snapper and grouper. Maybe team with a university. There is some really exciting work being done now with tags that track the movement of snapper off the reef. I think it is Szedlmayer out of Auburn. 

We got a grant from FWC to relocate reefs displaced by storms or not properly documented when deployed (now who would do that????). We also found that many of the Grouper Ghettos were apparently released prematurely and actually stuck in the bottom or fell on their side. In that position, they collapsed into a pile of rubble.

Lots of mistakes were made. Fortunately there are some professional reef services around---specifically, Walter Marine.


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## FishEyeMaps

It is great that you guys can do that. I'm sure there is a lot to be learned.

We mostly side-scan for fun. I would not feel right drinking beer and shooting the breeze while working on a FWC grant. Now a BP grant is a another matter....


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## SnapperSlapper

So you got a BP grant to drag your tow fish around, and are selling the numbers you found on here? Interesting.


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## SaltAddict

SnapperSlapper said:


> So you got a BP grant to drag your tow fish around, and are selling the numbers you found on here? Interesting.


Please don't f_ck up a good thread with this bull$hit!!!


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## FishEyeMaps

SnapperSlapper said:


> So you got a BP grant to drag your tow fish around, and are selling the numbers you found on here? Interesting.


...and the bromance continues...:yes:


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## philthefish

This is a great thread. Thanks again for the info.


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## tkh329

Billybob+, thanks for posting. I really enjoyed your insight.


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## Billybob+

Thanks to all glad some are finiding it of value.

a couple more observations for the newer fishermen is this, Trigger and grouper seem to be mostly active during the day, while snapper, and mingo seem to be active always. I say this to tell you some more observations I've made. It seems, (Generally speaking and from my observations) Snapper like the "Muddy" bottom that is West of Pensacola Pass. Grouper and trigger seem to like the "Sandy" bottom, especially around "rocky" areas like to the SE. Now there is no magic line that says grouper can't be west and trigger can't be east, it's just my observations. 
All of this above, implies (no scientific studies like the "gubbermunt genusses") that trigger and grouper are more "site" feeders so as you're placing your reefs consider the type of bottom for the type of fish you're targeting. I know also, that thanks to the gubbermunt genusses we have an overpopulation of snapper which results in these individual biospheres hold much less of a variety than they once did. Pretty much all the diving I've done lately in less that 160 is snapper with an occasional trigger, and grouper scared outa their gords!
AJ, of course like LARGE areas like Natural bottom, or HIGH relief, so if you're targeting AJ with your reefs, it's not feasable to build them large so build them UP. Build them in 100+ and put a VERY high flagging on it! One other side note for the divers types that are new to diving small stuff. I've always found it interesting that on low visibility days...or for that matter any day but I use it most in low visibility is this: the fish will generally venture out a "distance" from the structure, That distance seems to be proportional to the amount of fish that are holding on the wreck, probably due to pressure for food. Anyway, thier swimming action leaves a barely noticable "ring" (Clear sand out to thier travel zone, dirty sand outside the ring.) 
So if you ever dive in low vis, which is my favorite time to spearfish, IF the skipper doesn't hit the wreck with the hook then you can look for this color change (clear to dirty sand ) and from that, if you can see the curavture then turn 90 degrees inward and swim. You'll generally hit the wreck.


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## naclh2oDave

That's good stuff, I don't care who you are!


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## DreamWeaver21

I agree with a lot of this from what I have seen diving and building reefs. Grouper like overhead cover for sure. There aren't too many grouper in the depths that I dive < 100ft but likely more to the SE of Pensacola pass than the SW.

I disagree about not wanting to know where the pyramids are though. I do agree that often they will hold 1 or more often 2 big snapper and a bunch of small ones. I love having a bunch of numbers like that hit during snapper season. If we are fishing then we pull up and make one or two drops to try and catch them and move on to the next one. If we are diving then we drop a lone diver and bounce it. There is either a shooter there or not but after checking it we move on to the next. I like doing that kind of diving sometimes.


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## Billybob+

that comment was a bit "tongue in cheek" but in reality, I wanted to make the point that those steel pyramids could be SO much better with just a few, easy modifications.
We try to make it a point to never dive the same spot twice and with a limited number of dives we treat each one as precious. When I hit a steel Pyramid with the lattice, my heart just sinks 'cause you can pretty much know there'll be at best two shooter sized fish and it'll be almost a garauntee that none of them will be trigger, grouper, and for sure no lobster.
Do I have numbers that are steel pyramids? sure, have I ever dove even one that would require a revisit? nope. I don't mean to insult anyones reefs, I just want to offer suggestions that would, in my opinion, greatly improve them.

One other thought to add to yours, I can almost promise you that if the Snapper population was reduced to a resonable level, you'd start seeing more grouper in the shallow waters.


DreamWeaver21 said:


> I agree with a lot of this from what I have seen diving and building reefs. Grouper like overhead cover for sure. There aren't too many grouper in the depths that I dive < 100ft but likely more to the SE of Pensacola pass than the SW.
> 
> I disagree about not wanting to know where the pyramids are though. I do agree that often they will hold 1 or more often 2 big snapper and a bunch of small ones. I love having a bunch of numbers like that hit during snapper season. If we are fishing then we pull up and make one or two drops to try and catch them and move on to the next one. If we are diving then we drop a lone diver and bounce it. There is either a shooter there or not but after checking it we move on to the next. I like doing that kind of diving sometimes.


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## ryanbr

I usually like to call what you're referring to as density. The more nooks and crannies and places that can be undercut by octopus and fish and other creatures, the better. Besides overhead structure, I've found that fish, especially grouper, like some sort of vertical surface on part of a reef. That's one of the reasons that small boats(14-16') would did pretty well even though they weren't very big nor did they have much relief. They had vertical surface 360deg and when loaded properly, the density that all of your smaller life liked. A couple of opinions on the pyramids. The old ones incorporated different materials that gave them density, variation, and the nooks and crannies. Secondly, the pyramids have a surface that slants away from the bottom. This allows sand to pile up against it and cover a significant amount of the structure. Most reefs that have a sheer wall or a surface that slants back towards the bottom have far less trouble with subsiding or having sand pile up on them. Those that have put down boats and have had them turn over and rest upside down know what I'm talking about. I've always thought that someone should try a pyramid starts off w 2-4' of vertical surface b4 angling towards its point at the top for the reasons.


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## Billybob+

You're certainly right about the boat hulls subsiding faster when they land upside down, but I much prefer them to land that way, especially for Grouper They get that "cave" effect going, if there's an entry point into the boat. If there's not an entry point, or if it gets sanded in, then an upside down boat is virtually worthless


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## Magic Mike

Excellent thread. Thank you for those that gave their input


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## Durant

I wish I could understand more of what I just read.
But I just moved here so I'm still a newbie


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## Billybob+

Hey Durant,

to sum it up, 95% or more of the Gulf of Mexico Bottom out of Pensacola is Sand, think of it like crossing a desert. You need to find an oasis to find "life". There are scattered areas of natural protection (the Oasis's) that we refer to commonly as "natural bottom" these areas consist of, primarily, limestone formations and relative to the total size of the gulf, they are quite sparse in 170 feet of depth and less. Beyond 180 feet, this limestone become much more plentiful. Anywhere that in NOT flat sand bottom, will generally hold fish. because so much of the Gulf Bottom out of Pensacola is barren "wasteland" the fishermen have been hauling "reefs" (almost anything that sinks) out and dropping them onto the sand which will in no time create a new reef biosphere. The key is providing cover for small fish (bait fish). If you can attract baitfish, you can attract larger predator fish, which is what you want to target.



Durant said:


> I wish I could understand more of what I just read.
> But I just moved here so I'm still a newbie


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## Durant

I am truly asking because I don't know
Why is this not considered illegal dumping and polluting of a water way?
My ignorance comes from the fact I am a transplant from MT
Montana would be aggressive about dumping.

So I ask because I want to understand where I am now


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## tkh329

Durant said:


> I am truly asking because I don't know
> Why is this not considered illegal dumping and polluting of a water way?
> My ignorance comes from the fact I am a transplant from MT
> Montana would be aggressive about dumping.
> 
> So I ask because I want to understand where I am now


You are correct; it is dumping if not properly permitted and then sunk in a specific area. There are certain regulations you have to follow, which I know nothing about but someone else can probably explain.


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## Durant

That at least lets me know to be cautious about that kind of thing
I'm not a huge environmentalist because allot of it is BS but I do believe that dumping is not a wise idea except in this case where it is doing something possitive.


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## Eastern Tackle

Billybob+ said:


> Tthat trigger and grouper are more "site" feeders so as you're placing your reefs consider the type of bottom for the type of fish you're targeting.


Solid gold my friend!

I'm so glad I bumped this up a while back.:thumbsup:


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## Billybob+

Eastern Tackle.

do you make it down to build reefs? Your avatar says you're from Atlanta.
Just curious. If you ever need a fishing ride from Atlanta, let me know.


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## Eastern Tackle

Billybob+ said:


> Eastern Tackle.
> 
> do you make it down to build reefs? Your avatar says you're from Atlanta.
> Just curious. If you ever need a fishing ride from Atlanta, let me know.


I am landlocked here for now. As long as the work holds out, I dont have an option :whistling:

We are always looking to fish. I sold my Grady White when I moved to the ATL, so we whore ourselves out for rides regularly :thumbup:

I will drop you all my contact info.


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