# Redfish



## truth (Mar 4, 2009)

Bay Pirate and I have been discussing Redfish migration and salinity. I feel this is a better place to continue. I would be interested in everyones thought/s on salinity and how far a Redfish will travel to attain optimal conditions. Do you think fish leave the upper bays when it rains? It's a long way from Blackwater to pensacola pass.


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## captjoshrozier (Oct 4, 2007)

In Pensacola, maybe 2 miles a day (high estimate) in Louisiana, 2 hundred yards? That's my vote anyway. All estimates for total miles per day, even swimming in circles.



I think attaining "optimum" conditions isn't as important as livable conditions. How often do you enjoy "optimum" conditions, HVAC excluded. Those fish in La live and flourish in conditions with much more fresh water... ALL THE TIME.


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

> *truth (3/30/2009)*Bay Pirate and I have been discussing Redfish migration and salinity. I feel this is a better place to continue. I would be interested in everyones thought/s on salinity and how far a Redfish will travel to attain optimal conditions. Do you think fish leave the upper bays when it rains? It's a long way from Blackwater to pensacola pass.




A fish could swim that far in less than a day no problem if it wanted to, so I don't think it really takes them that long to go that long a distance. That being said, I would think that when a fish decides to move from an area, he kinda does it just rambling along...not necessarily with the goal in mind to go precisely from point A to point B. There may be some areas he passes through a little quicker than others. 



I base this solely on a semi-educated guess, nothing factual...so, I'd like to hear others thoughts or knowledge as well.


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## konz (Oct 1, 2007)

Yeah I don't know if they swim all the way out to the pass or not. I'm sure there would still be parts of the bay that have a higher salinity level due to depth........but then again I am just guessing.

I'll find out tonight when I go fish 3 mile.


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## Glastronix (Apr 14, 2008)

Looks like it's gonna be pretty windy tonight Konz....


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## SolarFlare (Oct 3, 2007)

> *Wharf Rat (3/30/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *truth (3/30/2009)*Bay Pirate and I have been discussing Redfish migration and salinity. I feel this is a better place to continue. I would be interested in everyones thought/s on salinity and how far a Redfish will travel to attain optimal conditions. Do you think fish leave the upper bays when it rains? It's a long way from Blackwater to pensacola pass.
> ...


Iagree with this one and Josh Rozier to some agree. I believe they just ramble along, along with the bait which is flushing out of the system as well. I also don't believe they will go so far as Optimal conditions, but *liveable *was great choice of words; they will just seek a comfort zone. As for Louisiana, that is a more consistent water qualitysituation, and the *geography is different* as well. Those marshes stick out into and *are surrounded on 3 sidesby SaltyGulf waters*, while our marshes are across 3 bays tucked back up inland much more.


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## konz (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Glastronix (3/30/2009)*Looks like it's gonna be pretty windy tonight Konz....


Dies down at 8pm


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## Glastronix (Apr 14, 2008)

Nice, let me know how it goes....


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## captjoshrozier (Oct 4, 2007)

Consideration must betaken of the tendency of freshwater to float on top of denser, saltier water, _halocline. _

A halocline can be easily created and observed in a drinking glass or other clear vessel. If fresh water is slowly poured over a quantity of salt water, using a spoon held horizontally at water-level to prevent mixing, a hazy interface layer, the halocline, will soon be visible due to the varying index of refraction across the boundary. (cool to do with the kids, very hard to see at first, use a straw down into the spoon)

I understand that there's a huge influx of fresh water due to rain fall, however I don't think that it gets _*too*_ fresh_ all the way to the bottom_. Not enough to make those fish swim more than a few miles at most. Say, from Pine Bluff to the Garcon bridge.

Example:

The ONLY way that I would move to Minnesota, for more than a short visit (it's too cold for me most of the time), would be if all of the food and women on earth were in Minnesota; Not just because the weather sucks in Pensacola. Scale that down and the Pass, all the wayfrom Blackwater, looks a lot like Minnesota. Sure, as a fish, I might go to spawn, or if there was an abundance of food in the Pass, but those 30" and under Redfish become food themselves quickly in the Pass. Best to stay as close to home as possible.

Who knows... I might be fishing in empty water!


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## truth (Mar 4, 2009)

I appreciate the responses. I would have to agree with Capt. Josh. Not moving to Minnasota any time soon. 

Thanks again,

Doc


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## SolarFlare (Oct 3, 2007)

> *captjoshrozier (3/30/2009)*Consideration must betaken of the tendency of freshwater to float on top of denser, saltier water, _halocline. _
> 
> A halocline can be easily created and observed in a drinking glass or other clear vessel. If fresh water is slowly poured over a quantity of salt water, using a spoon held horizontally at water-level to prevent mixing, a hazy interface layer, the halocline, will soon be visible due to the varying index of refraction across the boundary. (cool to do with the kids, very hard to see at first, use a straw down into the spoon)
> 
> ...




Good job Josh, that Wikipedia has everything, now if it could only tell us exactly where all of the upper slot fish areon any given day, we'd have it made!


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## Brant Peacher (Oct 4, 2007)

A heavy flood like we had in Blackwater last week effects fishing fortwo reasons. Higher water scatters the fish and the visibility sucks....

Redfish can live in freshwater....I catch them in freshwater ponds in Louisianna all the time.... I even catch them in freshwater ponds off Blackwater river on occasion.

The problem with a flood is that with such high water the fish have lots more places to go. With that being the case you will most likely not find them in your normal "honey holes". A lot of the time the fish will move way back into the reeds and you won't be able to locate them at all. 

As far as the fish moving from Blackwater to the pass everytime it floods...I highly doubt it. I had several friends do pretty decent in BW yesterday. It's just a matter of getting lucky and running your bait in front of ones nose.


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## truth (Mar 4, 2009)

Brant,

Thats kinda what I was thinking also. I don't think they would leave either. You never know I'm new here, so I want to learn as much as I can from all of you. I didn't see fish migrate that far down south just for some rain. I also agree high water sucks. 

WWW. Fishing

It's posts like this that help people like me learn. Please don't derail.


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## SolarFlare (Oct 3, 2007)

> *truth (3/30/2009)*Brant,
> 
> Thats kinda what I was thinking also. I don't think they would leave either. You never know I'm new here, so I want to learn as much as I can from all of you. I didn't see fish migrate that far down south just for some rain. I also agree high water sucks.
> 
> ...


*Brant is right, no question,* but I guess the issue is a question of semantics,I don't think anyone said that theredsfrom Blackwater move to the Pass, that wasthe_<U>theoretical</U>_ question posed? But I do believe, they are flushed (along with the bait)_<U>toward</U>_ the pass to _saltier _water. I realize there are still reds in Blackwater, but for example, go to the <U>new redfish pictureposts</U>; those fish were caught *closer* to"_a_" passthan Blackwater for sure!!! They are *silvery/white in color*, and you just don't catch redfish that color in the upper bay system...I can say that with 100% confidence! 

Bottomline,I believe after a rain event like we just had, you have a better chance of catching more and better qualityREDS "_CLOSER_" to the Pass than u do in Blackwater River. 

*Happy fishing*


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## truth (Mar 4, 2009)

Are those redfish not always in the pass? I think you can look back month for month and see that there is always a post from Pensacola or destin pass. I think the thing that I have learned from this is the fish don't leave they just become harder to catch, and that the fish in the pass are less affected by the rain and high water. I'm not trying to be rude it just seems to be the consensus of everyones thoughts. 

Thanks again everybody this is big help.

Doc


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## Captain DP (Oct 3, 2007)

for example, go to the <U>new redfish pictureposts</U>; those fish were caught *closer* to"_a_" passthan Blackwater for sure!!! They are *silvery/white in color*, and you just don't catch redfish that color in the upper bay system...I can say that with 100% confidence! 

Bottomline,I believe after a rain event like we just had, you have a better chance of catching more and better qualityREDS "_CLOSER_" to the Pass than u do in Blackwater River. 

*Happy fishing*[/quote]

Could this be because there are far more people fishing Pensacola pass for sheepshead throwing live and dead shrimp than there are in Blackwater? I would be willing to bet that most of these redfish from the pass are dare I say bycatch. (non target species) I am going to agree w/ Brant, Josh and truth.


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## SolarFlare (Oct 3, 2007)

> *Captain DP (3/30/2009)*for example, go to the <U>new redfish pictureposts</U>; those fish were caught *closer* to"_a_" passthan Blackwater for sure!!! They are *silvery/white in color*, and you just don't catch redfish that color in the upper bay system...I can say that with 100% confidence!
> 
> Bottomline,I believe after a rain event like we just had, you have a better chance of catching more and better qualityREDS "_CLOSER_" to the Pass than u do in Blackwater River.
> 
> *Happy fishing*


Could this be because there are far more people fishing Pensacola pass for sheepshead throwing live and dead shrimp than there are in Blackwater? I would be willing to bet that most of these redfish from the pass are dare I say bycatch. (non target species) I am going to agree w/ Brant, Josh and truth.[/quote] 



DP,I expected that you might pop up and challenge mesince we had a few unfriendlycommuniques this weekend! However,I don't see anything in my comments that indicate the reds were caught "*IN*" the Pass, (although obviously a few were), I think it states quite clearly " _<U>CLOSER</U>_ TO THE PASS, or "A" Pass...indicating the saltier water. 

If you think the reds being posted withthe silvery/white color are are upper bay reds, I respect your opinion, but my experience says otherwise! And just for fun, go to the post from Eric H's new friend that posted their catch tonight, and tell me those were from the Upper Bay System,I don't think so, andI doubt they were chasing sheepshead! 

Thanks for the fun in an otherwise less than entertaining day, but I'm tuning out of this subject before it turns into a personal derailment!










*Happy fishing!*


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## Captain DP (Oct 3, 2007)

DP,I expected that you might pop up and challenge me 

(maybe thats the problem you think everyonecomments to challengeyou, Kinda self centered)

since we had a few unfriendlycommuniques this weekend! However,I don't see anything in my comments that indicate the reds were caught "*IN*" the Pass, (although obviously a few were), I think it states quite clearly " _<U>CLOSER</U>_ TO THE PASS, or "A" Pass...indicating the saltier water.

(now that' just plain silly)

If you think the reds being posted withthe silvery/white color are are upper bay reds,

(I speciffically said they came from the pass, you qouted me on it)

I respect your opinion, but my experience says otherwise! And just for fun, go to the post from Eric H's new friend that posted their catch tonight, and tell me those were from the Upper Bay System,

(haven't seen it but I will check it out)

I don't think so, andI doubt they were chasing sheepshead!

(well that's onetime that I would agree with you)

Thanks for the fun in an otherwise less than entertaining day, but I'm tuning out of this subject before it turns into a personal derailment!










*Happy fishing!*[/quote]


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## truth (Mar 4, 2009)

Jeff,

Wow, I like you buddy but that was a little unprovoced. Please try not to derail.

DP,

Please keep on the topic. You and BP play nice.


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## HaterAide (Nov 9, 2007)

> *www.fishing (3/30/2009)*i dont know but i wish they would all swim away and never come back so i wouldnt have to see 300 post on redfish every week.


man if you dont have anything to offer to the thread, then just keep your mouth shut.


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## Drew Mixon (Oct 4, 2007)

will, you are just being a hater again. stop sniffing spackle and just play nice.

redfish 'movement', aside from from thoughts and conjecture, has been studied moreover than just about any other species. there are endless references from conneticut to corpus. 

the gross overview is...redfish are completely capable of living is an environ completely devoid of 'salt water'. like striped bass, they are happy as hogs in lakes or other locked tributaries. so, does and influx of 'fresh' water affect the fish? sure. lake fish have become accustomed to the lower disolved salts, but salt water fish 'need' it. brackish fish still need it, but not to the degree the beach-bound fish do. 

the rain will affect the fish in the rivers by pushing the out--we all accept this. it will also simply push them 'down'. josh's theory. its solid. but the fish wont leave--or they dont 'have to' anyway.

there are also numerous studies about different families of these fish. a lot of redfish anglers will speak of 'resident fish'. there is solid evidence that some families of fish will remain within close proximity of a single area for months, and even years at a time, often only moving with extreme environmental conditions. these fish have been known to congregate in an area for a long period of time, and move to another 'neighborhood', and stay there for a long period of time. these periods can be a couple of years. hence, resident fish. many species have this same trend--kingfish, cobia, snapper, snook, but there is tons of research about redfish.

the color of this fish was mentioned, yea, a dark fish is a river fish and a silver fish is a gulf fish. what is not mentioned is that the transient fish seem to be always transient. that is, a fish who was born'n bred to be a gulf fish, wont move up blackwater and just stay there. and a rivermouth fish is not normally going to become a gulf migrant.thats what researchshows, anyway.

this is of course just based on tagging studies--most of which have been carried out in texas and the carolinas. some studies along treasure coast support the same findings.

of course this does not mean that fish 'wont' move from gulf-to-bay, and back again. of course they do. but, the studies do point that there are two types of redifsh--those that hang around rivers/bays/bayous and those that travel.

and of all the papers i read, the big girls dont seem to be resident fish at all. once over 30" or so, they move from season to season, and dont hang around anyplace for too long.

this aint necessarity fact, but my opinions are based on things that are easily googled.

cheers.

drew


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## -- Saints Domination -- (Jun 24, 2008)

> *www.fishing (3/30/2009)*i dont know but i wish they would all swim away and never come back so i wouldnt have to see 300 post on redfish every week.




Maybe dont browse the INSHORE fishing section? Just an idea...


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## Brant Peacher (Oct 4, 2007)

That's pretty much right on Drew! The big girls are almost always swimmers. Most of the fish in the sound right now are oversized. We caught 15 fish about a week ago and 12 of them were over.Eric H caught 17 fish Monday and with the exception of a few they were all oversized.

What you said was also truethat a river fish will most likely not travel great distances even to find saltier water. Why? They do not need saltier water. They areaccustomed to living in brackish/fresh water. It is almost like there are two different types of redish.(the gulf redfish and the bay/river reds) 

This holds true with flounder as well. The river/bay flounder are always bigger than the gulf flounder because they do not have to travel. The gulf flounder are always on the move. The bay flounder are always darker than the gulf flounder as well. Why? Simply because of the difference in water color. All these facts are pretty well known. Most of this stuff is just common sense!


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## CCC (Sep 3, 2008)

How far they actually swims depends on where I am fishing at any one time. I have seen them swim miles away from where I was fishing and usually at a fast rate of speed.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *truth (3/30/2009)*Are those redfish not always in the pass?
> 
> Doc




Everyday except on tournament days has been my experience.


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## truth (Mar 4, 2009)

Matt,

Thanks. I was kind of thinking along those lines. I don't know about the tournament days, but it seems to me there is always a report from the passes and the jetties somewhere.


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

In all seriousness there does seem to be a population of fish that live in and around the pass area. They will move around both into the gulf and into the bay, I think. And I think even though you may catch them around the pass consistently it does not mean it is the same group of fish. There have been times I caught fish in there for a week straight but the size of the fish may change from day to day. One day may be large oversized fish in the 36-42" range, the next day I might catch several slot fish and oversized but nothing over 30". They also may change what tide and conditions they want to eat best in. I've had them bite well during all different tide stages and one time or another including dead water. 

I agree that a big factor of how far and how often a redfish travels has a lot to do with its size. One interesting scenerio is the slot fish that are caught is 100-200' during the winter. We asume that a slot fish has spent at leastsome of it's life inshore, so perhaps some of these fish have traveledfrom cat fish basin in blackwater bay, all the way to the edge.

One thing is for sure, the more we learn about where and when they move the more consistant we can be at catching them.


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## SolarFlare (Oct 3, 2007)

> *Matt Mcleod (4/2/2009)*In all seriousness there does seem to be a population of fish that live in and around the pass area. They will move around both into the gulf and into the bay, I think. And I think even though you may catch them around the pass consistently it does not mean it is the same group of fish. There have been times I caught fish in there for a week straight but the size of the fish may change from day to day. One day may be large oversized fish in the 36-42" range, the next day I might catch several slot fish and oversized but nothing over 30". They also may change what tide and conditions they want to eat best in. I've had them bite well during all different tide stages and one time or another including dead water.
> 
> I agree that a big factor of how far and how often a redfish travels has a lot to do with its size. One interesting scenerio is the slot fish that are caught is 100-200' during the winter. We asume that a slot fish has spent at leastsome of it's life inshore, so perhaps some of these fish have traveledfrom cat fish basin in blackwater bay, all the way to the edge.
> 
> One thing is for sure, the more we learn about where and when they move the more consistant we can be at catching them.


Thanks, that's a good post, there doesn't appear to be a lot of data about the offshore reds, I do believe there is some data that indicates some of these reds spawn in the pass. Therefore their eggs could easily be taken offshore where these reds could grow, but I would think their survival rate would be extremely low.

Typically, the reds head offshore from the Bayous/Sound etconce they reach maturityabout 32"-33" and about 13lbs. *That makes that catch on Erics trip the other day of a 36"14lb red a particularly rare shallow water catch! *<P align=center>*Now if this friggin rain would stop!*<P align=center>


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## konz (Oct 1, 2007)

Man, good post, very informative!


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## Brant Peacher (Oct 4, 2007)

Eric caught 17 fish Monday and 13 or 14 of them were bulls. 

Eric and I caught 15 fish the week before and all of them were bulls with the exception of 2.

Jeff and I caught 9a fewdays before the grass flats tournament and 8 of them were bulls. 2 right at 39in... We didn't feel like weeding through them on tournament day so weheaded for the backwaters and stuck a few nice ones..


All fish caught in the sound in 1 to 2ft of water were mostly oversized. I will say that I haven't seen it like that in a long time..


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## SolarFlare (Oct 3, 2007)

Brant,

Here's a thought, by the size and the accompanying age for that size range, these may be Ivan fish. That Hurricane hit right during our spawning season. Might be an interesting phenomenom!

I have seen some big ones swimming with schools of muchsmaller fish in very shallow water, not something I remember seeing before????

Sounds like you've been having some serious fun on light tackle!


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## Jighead (Feb 11, 2009)

This has been a great conversation. Just a question, I caught a 41 inch 31lb Red on December 28, 2007 in less than 2ft of water in Fish River. How rare is it to find a Red of that size in that area in December? There were several oversized Reds caught that day. I don't really know enough to say rather it's common or not. That was my first time to visit Fish River and the Pelicans were diving everywhere and a lot of other bird activity and bait was thick. I've been back several times in the winter and have not seen that amount of bait. I've contributed it to the drought and the salinity levels. Maybe the oversized fish were following the bait and the bait was following the salinity?


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## Brant Peacher (Oct 4, 2007)

Not rare but a good surprise! Two years ago we coudnt keep away from the bulls in the river. This year we only caught a few but they were still there. Great Catch!! However, they are more frequent in the pass...


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