# Open carry in Florida



## RonA (Jul 8, 2012)

Here is a chance to sign a petition if you would like to support open carry in Florida.
http://www.open-carry.org/index.php/floc2a


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## Brandon_SPC (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks signed it!:thumbsup:


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxfish4fun (Oct 22, 2007)

signed, :thumbsup:


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## damnifino3 (Sep 23, 2012)

Signed


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## wld1985 (Oct 2, 2007)

Read on some news site, they have it in another state.. The first day, some guy was in the Tom thumb, OC'in.. Another guy walks in with OC and draws his weapon and demands to see the other guys license... Other guy pulls weapon also, Ya.. I dont think its a good idea.


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## realstreet (Dec 8, 2008)

Signed :thumbsup:


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## 500mike (Jul 1, 2012)

I'm all for it -whatever/however someone wants to carry is up to them.

BUT please spread the word to NOT go to Starbucks carrying an AR-15 over your shoulder just because you can. That makes us all look like a bunch of kooks.
There ARE groups of gun owners doing this kind of thing -then businesses that did allow concealed carry -ask patrons to not bring firearms onto their property ,and I don't blame them .


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

Louisiana has open carry, you have to always have it open unless you have a concealed permit. Makes since, but open carry makes you a target. 


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## Chapman5011 (Mar 7, 2013)

FreeDiver said:


> Louisiana has open carry, you have to always have it open unless you have a concealed permit. Makes since, but open carry makes you a target.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same way in alabama.
You don't have to have a conceal carry license if it on your hip and can be seen. That changes in a car but I don't think for a riding a motor cycle because it can be seen.


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## Donut slayer (Jan 16, 2009)

_*"but open carry makes you a target. "*_

X2 on that. I dont want anyone to know I'm armed.


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## Chapman5011 (Mar 7, 2013)

It make a person target for the police. Criminals will tend to screw with someone else that doesn't have a gun on their hip. 
Hope florida gets it on the books and allows people to protect their self like the rest of the south. We can open carry in alabama.


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## Mac1528 (Mar 24, 2012)

Donut slayer said:


> _*"but open carry makes you a target. "*_
> 
> X2 on that. I dont want anyone to know I'm armed.


I agree!! I carry concealed and only my wife knows...cause she does too!


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## fla_scout (Sep 28, 2007)

I will keep my concealed weapon where a weapon belongs...concealed. Permitted of course!


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## Spoolin Up (May 3, 2011)

I like to wear mine on my belt at the shop, If you are legit, you won't mind. Unless you are a Democrat.


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## JMSUN (Feb 24, 2010)

I would continue to carry concealed, but that is my preference. You should be able to carry it however you like. It should be an individual decision, not a government dictated one.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm a gun person and I'm sure I will catch sh!t, but here goes. Against open carry unless hunting, fishing or maybe a gun store clerk etc. No reason to walk around with your gun showing in public. Believe it or not, it doesn't make you taller or better looking. Keep it concealed and hopefully you will never need to use it.


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

Like I said before, your an open target.... I mean do as you please legally.but the quote, no one will screw with you, sure that's a case until that some one has nothing to loose and your in the way of a their prize. In that case your the first hit.... My father (a police officer) always told me, think tactical. Stay aware of your surroundings, and don't be obvious. Having a gun in plain view is just a bluff hotshot move or an obvious weak point. some of us just want to be cowboys. I'm all the way with open carry in the woods or on your land. But out and about. Nah. Then again that my opinion. 


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## deersniper270 (Apr 29, 2009)

I don't think open carry would be a good idea. Having a gun in the open makes you a target. Guns sell fast on the street and everyone knows gun values. I don't see how it helps you to open carry. I could see more people who don't know what they are doing getting robbed or killed for their guns and them ending up on the street. Call me crazy but I'd rather you not know I have a gun in all situations. Idk I just don't see a need for it


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## johnsonbeachbum (Oct 1, 2007)

open carry and that exposed gun is a magnet for anyone that wants a gun for criminal purposes.
Or just because they want it.
No one can be forever vigilant of their surroundings 100% of the time.


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## welldoya (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm against it as well. Don't see a need for it other than the "hey look, I've got a gun"
factor.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

They been doing it for years in other states. Never heard of anyone being a victim or targeted cause they were open carrying. Why would it be any different in Florida then any other state that has hsd it legal for years?


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

You never heard of some one getting shot so said shooter could steal a gun? And sure, maybe it's not in national news. But as I said before, try thinking like a criminal. Now if I was a said criminal and wanted to rob a store, *this is a fictional story* and you were standing there in front of me or hell even back there grabbing a soda, but I saw you had a gun.... Now if I'm hellbent for 60bucks in a register if go ahead and send one your way. 

I'm sure you could see how different this could end up with a concealed weapon. 


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

It could go that way or your now a hostage, and adding a gun to the criminals collection waiting for police to arrive..... 


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

Big majority of criminals are looking for easy pickings. They see a gun then they will move to the next store. I think some of you guys are just way too paranoid. Yes, I have lived in states that have allowed open carry for years. No, I have not heard of anyone who was open carrying being robbed of their pistol. It might have happened but I have never heard of it. Nobody has answered my question though. Why would it be so much more dangerous to allow it here then where it hs s been legal for years???

BTW, I have never open carried in the civilian world but I do occasionally conceal carry..


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

Well I tend to think about what ifs and unpredictable a then the , oh that hasn't happened. Or what are the odds.


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## DLo (Oct 2, 2007)

Outside9 said:


> I'm a gun person and I'm sure I will catch sh!t, but here goes. Against open carry unless hunting, fishing or maybe a gun store clerk etc. No reason to walk around with your gun showing in public. Believe it or not, it doesn't make you taller or better looking. Keep it concealed and hopefully you will never need to use it.





deersniper270 said:


> I don't think open carry would be a good idea. Having a gun in the open makes you a target. Guns sell fast on the street and everyone knows gun values. I don't see how it helps you to open carry. I could see more people who don't know what they are doing getting robbed or killed for their guns and them ending up on the street. Call me crazy but I'd rather you not know I have a gun in all situations. Idk I just don't see a need for it





welldoya said:


> I'm against it as well. Don't see a need for it other than the "hey look, I've got a gun"
> factor.


These are opinions about if you think it's needed or a good idea. It has nothing to do with the legal rights of another citizen. Many folk think that it is unnecessary to own an "assault" rifle, or a handgun with more than ten shots, their opinion should never infringe on my constitutional rights. If it was perfectly legal I still wouldn't do it, and I agree with your opinions stated above, but my opinion should not be a factor in whether it's legal or not, it should be a choice.


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

I hear the "It makes you are target" argument all the time and it is completely unfounded. There is absolutely no evidence out there that shows that open carry makes you a target of a bad guy. In fact there is statistical data that shows that open carry, or the simple presence of a firearm, prevents crimes.

I also love the comments about people that open carry are only doing to to make themselves look like Rambo. I'd like to open carry for no other reason that it is far more comfortable than conceal carry.


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## Brandon_SPC (Nov 2, 2013)

All of y'all saying it makes a target. Let me ask you this would you rather rob a place knowing there is possibly "No" firearms or knowing for a fact when you walk in there you will see a few different people carrying different weapons. Personally me I would rob a place I do NOT see weapons. Why do you think DC crime rate is so high the worst gun laws ever. Back in the 1800's 1900's people were allowed to carry this with them, but as society has grown we have also bought into this thing called public media now EVERYONE thinks a weapon is bad. I personally am all for this!!


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## deersniper270 (Apr 29, 2009)

I never said I'm not for your right to do it. I just personally don't think I'd do it. If there was a vote, I'd vote yes to legalize it.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

Even plain clothes law enforcement don't walk around with their guns hanging out for the world to see. I know some of you are going to say you were eating lunch and you saw a guys gun and badge when he pulled off his jacket. However, for the most part it is agency policy or they try not to flash it.

We all have our opinions and most of us still have the right to vote. So if open carry gets on the ballet vote your mind. It is your God Given Right


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

Outside9 said:


> Even plain clothes law enforcement don't walk around with their guns hanging out for the world to see. I know some of you are going to say you were eating lunch and you saw a guys gun and badge when he pulled off his jacket. However, for the most part it is agency policy or they try not to flash it.
> 
> We all have our opinions and most of us still have the right to vote. So if open carry gets on the ballet vote your mind. It is your God Given Right


Every single time i can recall seeing a plain clothes officer he was wearing a gun. They come into the store all the time and they are ALWAYS carrying openly if they are on duty.

I would hope you would vote to allow those of us that might want to open carry to have the choice just as you should have the choice.


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

I was just explaining my own opinion... Do as you please. 


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

bigbulls said:


> Every single time i can recall seeing a plain clothes officer he was wearing a gun. They come into the store all the time and they are ALWAYS carrying openly if they are on duty.
> 
> I would hope you would vote to allow those of us that might want to open carry to have the choice just as you should have the choice.


 Sorry!


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## Brandon_SPC (Nov 2, 2013)

Outside9 said:


> Even plain clothes law enforcement don't walk around with their guns hanging out for the world to see. I know some of you are going to say you were eating lunch and you saw a guys gun and badge when he pulled off his jacket. However, for the most part it is agency policy or they try not to flash it.
> 
> We all have our opinions and most of us still have the right to vote. So if open carry gets on the ballet vote your mind. It is your God Given Right


 What do you mean by plain clothes law enforcement. Undercover? Or off duty? I know a few that say if they could open carry they would in a heart beat.


Also for everyone that says no. Have you thought about it from a woman's stand point. For a lot of women carry concealed it is an inconvenience. For my girlfriend 1.) She hates shooting the pistol she can actually carry concealed which is the LCP. Now, my shield she will shoot that all day 2.) Most women hate those conceal carry purses 3.) Now if she is carrying my shield concealed she would be printing extremely bad. Whether she carried open or concealed you see the pistol. 4.) It would be more of a convince to the women to carry openly than have to dig through a purse etc. 5.) They can actually carry a pistol that they are comfortable shooting. 6.) Women won't look vulnerable so assaults on women would go down. I can go on and on.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

Arizona had open carry even way back in the 80's when I lived there .... and I never knew of it to be a problem.

And yes, I used to carry open from time to time in plainclothes in Texas, Arkansas, and Missouri ... with a badge clipped on my belt next to my firearm, of course. Especially in the summer. You wouldn't have known I was peace officer from behind. I'm guessing most people made that assumption though.

Vermont has _always _protected the right open or concealed carry by any law abiding citizen ... no permit of any kind required. I've never heard it was a problem there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Vermont


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

I don't think open carry is really a problem, I just not my thing.

When I said plain clothes I was referring to detectives not undercover. 

I will always vote for more gun rights, so I will be in your corner.


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## welldoya (Oct 5, 2007)

So let's assume that OC would not make you a target for criminals.
What about LEOs ? Would they tend to get more nervous if you have a handgun on your hip ? If they pulled you over and saw a handgun on your belt, would they tend to be nervous and extremely careful in dealing with you ?
What if you made a sudden move ? What could the outcome possibly be ?
Just playing devil's advocate here.
To each his own but honestly, going about my everyday life, I would feel stupid wearing a sidearm. Now, if I were a surveryor or somebody who works outdoors more, that would be different.


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## bowdiddly (Jan 6, 2010)

I personally would not open carry as I don't want anyone knowing that I am armed. 
However, I think it should be left up to the individual and I would vote for it, as long as open carry person's had to go through the same permitting and training as concealed carry permit holders.

Current Fl. law allows you to open carry on your own property or at your personally owned business or if your boss allows it at your workplace.


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## Brandon_SPC (Nov 2, 2013)

welldoya said:


> So let's assume that OC would not make you a target for criminals.
> What about LEOs ? Would they tend to get more nervous if you have a handgun on your hip ? If they pulled you over and saw a handgun on your belt, would they tend to be nervous and extremely careful in dealing with you ?
> What if you made a sudden move ? What could the outcome possibly be ?
> Just playing devil's advocate here.
> To each his own but honestly, going about my everyday life, I would feel stupid wearing a sidearm. Now, if I were a surveryor or somebody who works outdoors more, that would be different.


 That's is when the LEOs need to educate themselves about the law that is being passed instead of becoming power hungry. Also I know you don't have to inform LEOs but also as a citizen I would probably inform the LEO I am OC so my ass doesn't get shot. It goes both ways. I LOVE my constitutional rights!!!!! but also I do NOT want to get shot over a misunderstanding. I hope it eventually gets approved though! It would make it a lot easier when it is scorching hot outside to carry. Also as time goes on and the officers start to see it they will get a custom to it.


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

I dont get nervous around armed uniformed police officers, plain clothes officers, or any other citizen that i know is armed unless they do something stupid like point a loaded firearm at me. Why would an officer act any different if a handgun is concealed or visible? Does the meer act of pulling a shirt over the gun somehow eliminate the "threat" of an armed citizen for police officers? 

A police officer has the legal authority to temporarily disarm you when making a traffic stop or other legal "stop." Some choose to remove the firearm and some choose to leave it in your holster.


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## fishmagician (Jun 4, 2014)

Some people need more supervision than others. Open carry gives me the shivers.


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

If a citizen is carrying a gun, be it open or concealed, do they need less supervision because shirt is covering their gun? Is this citizen not equally armed, trained, smart, stupid, in need of supervision, etc... either way?


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## Spoolin Up (May 3, 2011)

I agree. A piece of linen doesn't change a persons ability.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

welldoya said:


> So let's assume that OC would not make you a target for criminals.
> What about LEOs ? Would they tend to get more nervous if you have a handgun on your hip ? If they pulled you over and saw a handgun on your belt, would they tend to be nervous and extremely careful in dealing with you ?
> What if you made a sudden move ? What could the outcome possibly be ?
> Just playing devil's advocate here.
> To each his own but honestly, going about my everyday life, I would feel stupid wearing a sidearm. Now, if I were a surveryor or somebody who works outdoors more, that would be different.


When I was working I tended to be a little more concerned about people's guns (& knives) that I _couldn't_ see than those I could.

BTW - I never felt "_stupid_" carrying a firearm open or concealed. Never felt like it made me bulletproof either.


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## svdeerman (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks I signed it


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## delta dooler (Mar 6, 2008)

Im all about gun rights, but personally I think civialian open carry is stupid. I do not want everyone to know Im packin and I dont want to be a "target".

just my .02, I dont think its a good idea.:thumbsup:


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

Can someone please post some proof that somebody was targeted because they were open carrying ????? Lots of people saying it will make you a target but where has that actually happened?? 

Like I said before, I have lived in several states that allowed open carry but never have heard of someone being targeted. 

What makes Florida so different from other states that it would cause these issues here when there has been no similiar problems in other states that allow it?


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

Breeze said:


> Can someone please post some proof that somebody was targeted because they were open carrying ????? Lots of people saying it will make you a target but where has that actually happened??
> 
> Like I said before, I have lived in several states that allowed open carry but never have heard of someone being targeted.
> 
> What makes Florida so different from other states that it would cause these issues here when there has been no similiar problems in other states that allow it?


Not gonna happen because there is no evidence supporting that theory. There is, however, evidence to the contrary. Evidence supporting the fact that open carrying prevents crimes.


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

Ok, you want proof. Well I don't have any. My proof would be, think like some one that has nothing to loose. In most cases your think of common thieves, or other cowards that prey on easy targets.... That's fine. And yes I'm sure it will have them thinking twice. I could care less about what has happened, I'm think more along the lines of what could happen. 

Some one knowing you have a weapon in plan sight, could provoke them, maybe they have nothing to loose, if it's a simple holster what's stoping them, it would be like a simple wallet lift on bourbon.... Ok maybe it's a sweet blackhawk, you'll need a button to pull it out, but the guy already knows this so he knocks you out, leaving him a easy pull from that holster... Or a brutal way to think about is, someone that has simply no care, they plan on have a last breath shortly but not with out taking a few out, he's not gonna let you end the twisted fun he's about to have..... Some one who is sacred but hostile, sees you with a gun. You could become a target. 


Like I said, I'm not against it, you won't find me with a gun open on my waist unless I'm in the woods. I tend to think about the "what could possibly go wrong" when dealing with people these days. I could come up with 500 situations in my head. I'd rather no one know, and leave the surprise for them when the come treadin. 



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## delta dooler (Mar 6, 2008)

Breeze said:


> Can someone please post some proof that somebody was targeted because they were open carrying ????? Lots of people saying it will make you a target but where has that actually happened??
> 
> Like I said before, I have lived in several states that allowed open carry but never have heard of someone being targeted.
> 
> What makes Florida so different from other states that it would cause these issues here when there has been no similiar problems in other states that allow it?


There is no "proof", personally I dont need proof, Im just trying to think like a criminal would think in the heat of the moment when I was attempting to rob a bank or someone, If I seen someone packing and I felt he may be the one that plays the "hero", I'd dust him first therefore eliminating my threat, and then carry out my robbery without fear of of someone shooting me. . . . 




bigbulls said:


> Not gonna happen because there is no evidence supporting that theory. There is, however, evidence to the contrary. Evidence supporting the fact that open carrying prevents crimes.


 
I stated my opinion just like you stated yours. Youll find just as much "evidence" supporting my theory as well as your theory, neither are "facts", so with that being said, hopefully one day while youre practicing open carry and some thug decides he wants to take your sidearm from behind, someone is close by that is practicing concealed carry and diffuses the situation before you become a victim of your own gun.


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## PensacolaEd (Oct 3, 2007)

This chant of "It will make you a target" comes directly from Nanny Bloomberg and his ilk. In the States where open carry is allowed, I have NEVER heard of someone being targeted because they were carrying. How is a criminal expected to know you aren't a Police Detective, FBI Agent, or other LEO? He can't. 

If you don't want to carry openly, don't, but the choice should be up to the individual, not the Government. These little infringements on our collective Gun Rights should unite sportemen, not divide us.

And an FYI - This Petition was started in 2012 (see the bottom of the form)


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## lastcast (Oct 12, 2007)

All the reading you want. If you don't want to open carry, don't. How many times did you use your concealed?

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...#q=gun crimes in open carry states statistics


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## Redfish663 (Jul 27, 2014)

Breeze said:


> Can someone please post some proof that somebody was targeted because they were open carrying ????? Lots of people saying it will make you a target but where has that actually happened??


Here's one I remember reading about:

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/95999354.html


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## submariner (Oct 2, 2007)

I am convinced Open carry makes you a target, so does carrying money . So the wallet stays home too. If we ever go to lunch, you need to pay.


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

I'll pay for your lunch.... Most pretty women need there lunches paid for, or they'll bitch. 


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

Like a stated above and on many occasions. It's not what happened, it WHAT COULD HAPPEN.... constant questioning reminds me of a 3 year olds.... Wanna carry openly, go ahead. Enjoy the hell out of feeling like a Rambo. Just remember when that someone that has nothing to loose, you better bring your A game with you.... Don't be a pussy. 


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## Emerald Ghost (Mar 11, 2008)

bigbulls said:


> If a citizen is carrying a gun, be it open or concealed, do they need less supervision because shirt is covering their gun? Is this citizen not equally armed, trained, smart, stupid, in need of supervision, etc... either way?


 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer is NO.
However, my life experiences have revealed to me that "some" folks have that "NEED" to be seen carrying a gun, and the larger the better. 

Carrying concealed is like having an ace in the hole. Nobody knows it until it is needed.


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

FreeDiver said:


> Like a stated above and on many occasions. It's not what happened, it WHAT COULD HAPPEN.... constant questioning reminds me of a 3 year olds.... Wanna carry openly, go ahead. Enjoy the hell out of feeling like a Rambo. Just remember when that someone that has nothing to loose, you better bring your A game with you.... Don't be a pussy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not trying to sound like a 3 year old. And have never open carried even when I could. Many states have had open carry for years with no problems. I am just trying to figure out what makes floridians so different from everyone else that they might have problems that no other states have had. When we lived in Virginia you could walk into a 7-11 and half the people in there were open carrying. They never had any of the problems people are talking about here. Instead of what if's why not look at the history of what worked for other states. Unless Floridians are really that much different from other people.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

PensacolaEd said:


> This chant of "It will make you a target" comes directly from Nanny Bloomberg and his ilk. In the States where open carry is allowed, I have NEVER heard of someone being targeted because they were carrying. How is a criminal expected to know you aren't a Police Detective, FBI Agent, or other LEO? He can't.
> 
> If you don't want to carry openly, don't, but the choice should be up to the individual, not the Government. These little infringements on our collective Gun Rights should unite sportemen, not divide us.
> 
> And an FYI - This Petition was started in 2012 (see the bottom of the form)


You should ask an FBI/Federal agent what their policy is on carrying a gun when not wearing a badge, raid jacket (something that IDs them as law enforcment). I believe you will find out they are required to carry it consealed.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

Outside9 said:


> You should ask an FBI/Federal agent what their policy is on carrying a gun when not wearing a badge, raid jacket (something that IDs them as law enforcment). I believe you will find out they are required to carry it consealed.


I frequently open-carried while on duty in plain clothes with just a badge clipped to my belt - can't speak for FBI policy (although I've seen them open-carry), but I've worked with a lot of State, County, and other Federal investigators who did as well. Always with a badge on the belt or neck-chain of course, but you wouldn't have known just seeing from behind. (btw - my agency prohibited the everyday wearing of raid-jackets unless we were on a search warrant or other such official operation)

I've also lived States that had open-carry & never known of any issue. The State of Vermont (I've not lived in that one) has _never_ required a permit for any non-felon to carry open or concealed. That's what we need nationwide .... Vermont Carry. Why should a law-abiding citizen have to _prove_ to the government they are not a criminal & pay them a fee to exercise what is his/her Constitutional right? Anyone age 18 & over who has not been convicted of a violent felony should be allowed to carry open or concealed without having to obtain a special "permiso" from big government. It's not like people ever convicted of a violent felony & thus prohibited are gonna bother applying for one anyway.


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

18 and older..... I'd up that bar to where the kids have matured. I do some what agree with not paying for the taxes on concealed but at the same time, that class is making sure you understand the laws, and have at least some knowledge and a decent shot before being brushed off to carry away.... This whole open carry you see in New Orleans... Half of the morons hold the gun sideways, and fire away. That not a racist remark it's common among the G crowd... Com'mon now. The way I see it, there should be a standard of being able to carry. That's for your safety as well as anyone around you when a conflict arises. 

Here a simple example. I run a fast supply boat in Louisiana. I was talking to a deckhand who is a young black man from Baton Rouge, just turned 22. We are often on the subject of guns on my boat and few of us are some what addicted to slinging lead. Anyways to get to the point. 

When he told me about the open carry, believe it or not I had no idea until this year about there law. Only that my concealed partnered with their state. I asked him about what he carries, it happened to be a 45. When I asked him about how often he shoots at a range, he said I've shot a my gun two times in the 3 years I've owned it.......... Now unless it's like riding a bike... What ever direction he's pointing that canon at, is a huge hazard. I wouldn't doubt in my mind there are plenty of young guns out there that are the same. Sure open carry the way a see it is a huge bluff, an intimidation stunt as I see it. But when push comes to shuv, can he or she operate that unit safely? Or are they putting more lives at risk? 

I understand it's their right, but what about another innocent bystanders life? If your gonna carry don't you think you need to be ready to think on a split second, an hit the target when your adrenalin is amping? This would be my reasoning for tractical training not just standing at a gun range.... But to each his own. 



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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

And how well does all of that drivers ed training work for all of the people driving around the roads texting, eating, making phone calls, putting on makeup, attending to kids in the back seat, keeping their dog out of their lap, spilling their drink, arguing with theie spouse, spanking their kids, reading a book, etc... etc... etc...

The point is, all the training in the world isnt going to prevent idiots from being idiots. Those that take it seriously will get the training and practice with out being forced to and those that do not will take the mandatory training and never shoot again until the shtf.

Who decides who is mature or not? I know some kids i would trust with my life and i know some grown men that i wouldn't trust to walk across the street with.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

AndyS said:


> I frequently open-carried while on duty in plain clothes with just a badge clipped to my belt - can't speak for FBI policy (although I've seen them open-carry), but I've worked with a lot of State, County, and other Federal investigators who did as well. Always with a badge on the belt or neck-chain of course, but you wouldn't have known just seeing from behind. (btw - my agency prohibited the everyday wearing of raid-jackets unless we were on a search warrant or other such official operation)
> 
> I've also lived States that had open-carry & never known of any issue. The State of Vermont (I've not lived in that one) has _never_ required a permit for any non-felon to carry open or concealed. That's what we need nationwide .... Vermont Carry. Why should a law-abiding citizen have to _prove_ to the government they are not a criminal & pay them a fee to exercise what is his/her Constitutional right? Anyone age 18 & over who has not been convicted of a violent felony should be allowed to carry open or concealed without having to obtain a special "permiso" from big government. It's not like people ever convicted of a violent felony & thus prohibited are gonna bother applying for one anyway.


"With the badge next to the gun"


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

FreeDiver said:


> 18 and older..... I'd up that bar to where the kids have matured. I do some what agree with not paying for the taxes on concealed but at the same time, that class is making sure you understand the laws, and have at least some knowledge and a decent shot before being brushed off to carry away....


You don't have a 19 y/o daughter, I take it. 

You would uphold the right of a 21 year old young woman to carry a firearm protect herself from a violent abduction/rape, carjacking, etc ... yet leave the 18, 19, or 20 year old relatively defenseless, as though they could never need to defend themselves from a violent crime.

I'm gonna speak up for young adults here for a minute. I'm 53 y/o, but I was a plenty decent shot at 18, responsible to boot - and there are plenty of responsible/mature 18 y/o's out there today and they can inadvertently find themselves in a bad situation, a bad part of town, and potential victims of violent crime as much as you or I. Your way of thinking leaves them relatively defenseless ... second class citizens in a way. Being responsible has little to do with age once one is beyond 18 ... I've known plenty of irresponsible/immature 40 year olds --- and some of them are packing ... and doubtful how emotionally stable some of them are; how well they understand the law; or how safely they can handle a firearm. Yet we somehow still manage to argue their Constitutional Rights not be infringed and hold them legally accountable for their actions.

That doesn't mean I advocate _all _18, 19, and 20 year olds should start carrying a concealed handgun just as _all_ 21 and over shouldn't ... but those who feel up to the responsibility should not have that Constitutional Right infringed - because our society/government/laws holds them legally accountable for their actions in all other ways.

If a person is legally old enough to leave the support & protection of their father, brothers, and uncles; vote; marry; drive; operate a boat; enter into contracts; have an abortion; make medical decisions for themselves and their children; be issued a passport and travel the world; own a home and be responsible to defend it from intruders; go to adult prison or otherwise be held legally accountable for wrongdoing; be subject to civil lawsuit;  be accountable for filing and paying all taxes required of them by the government; seek and engage in hazardous employment; operate heavy or dangerous machinery; and serve in the military to fight, kill people, and maybe die for Uncle Sam ... they're old enough to have their Constitutional Right to keep and bear arms protected by the government (as well as enjoy an alcoholic beverage, but that's another issue.) 

It's time we started treating young adults like adults ... giving them all the rights that come with adulthood and full citizenship along with the responsibilities for which we already hold them legally accountable.

Firearms training classes are great. I am an advocate. But what other Constitutional _Rights_ do we have to _pay_ to take a government *mandated* "class" for & then _pay_ a fee in order to freely exercise? If anything I recommend the public schools offer the class free of charge before the age of 18. Perhaps one class in middle school and a refresher in high school - just as they should educate our children in _basic_ personal finance, civil contracts, civil and criminal law, and a lot of other civic duties & responsibilities. _(A personal anecdote that is somewhat akin to this whole government-mandated-class thing has to do with motorcycle helmet laws in Texas. Now this is not a Constitutional Right, of course, and I don't normally ride without a helmet ... but when I moved to Texas I wanted to have that option on rare occasion. In order to have the option to ride without a helmet in Texas you have to have taken a Motorcycle Safety Course approved by Texas DOT - even if you already have an MC endorsement on your driver license. These courses are put on by private training schools and cost about $200! I took the course ... and I'll give the school credit, it was a decent course ... but I had been riding motorcycles already for 40 years and had an MC endorsed license already! The point of the anecdote though is it's just so much more busybody government nonsense cooked up by a bunch of busy-body State legislators supported by a bunch of busybody constituents ... most of whom likely don't even ride motorcycles.)_

As to fingerprint checks ... what other Constitutional Right is it incumbent upon citizens to _prove_ to the government they have never been convicted of a felony before they can exercise that right ... and to pay a fee to the government in order to prove themselves innocent? Would you support an annual fingerprint check (& fee) in order to establish to the government you are not a felon before you are allowed to exercise your Constitutional Right to vote? Felons already know they are legally barred from even possessing a firearm, much less carrying one concealed ... why would they even bother to submit a fingerprint check to carry a firearm, when they know it's going to come up positive. It's not like they will be deterred from carrying if they are or would be denied a permit if they are so inclined to carry. They are breaking the law either way.

btw - I'm fine with with applying restrictions on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms of those convicted of violent crimes or adjudged by a court to be mentally unstable/dangerous. But that restriction should be ordered by a Judge as part of their sentencing or commitment order after a hearing and in accordance with Due Process and should not always necessarily be a rigid lifetime statutory bar. It should depend on the individual circumstances of the crime & individual - and there should be an appeal process. I don't think it should be the case every person ever convicted of any and every crime that was potentially punishable by a year or more in jail (_whether that's what they received or not _) should be permanently banned from hunting or defending their home & family with a firearm. But that's what Federal firearms law says:


> _U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 922
> 18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts
> ...
> (g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
> ...


Finally ... plenty of 18 to 20 year old's (& younger) out there carrying & committing firearms offenses regardless of the age-related restrictions on concealed carry permits. The restriction is certainly not deterring them, it only restricts those inclined to be law-abiding to begin with.


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

Outside9 said:


> "With the badge next to the gun"


As though that will deter a criminal intent upon assaulting you & trying to take your sidearm. _(it will not - don't ask how I knowi) _


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

AndyS said:


> You don't have a 19 y/o daughter, I take it.
> 
> You would uphold the right of a 21 year old young woman to carry a firearm protect herself from a violent abduction/rape, carjacking, etc ... yet leave the 18, 19, or 20 year old relatively defenseless, as though they could never need to defend themselves from a violent crime.
> 
> ...


:yes:  :clap: :thumbup1: :boxing: :gunsmilie: :rockon: :clapping: :thumbsup: :thumbup: :notworthy:


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## FreeDiver (Jun 12, 2013)

This subject could literally go back and forth till I'm dead. Hopefully thats plenty more years from now. I'll continue my training and concealment, you have my vote if you'd like to feel like John Wayne. 

Enjoy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Breeze (Mar 23, 2012)

I actually asked one of my LEO customers about this. He said he, and his LEO buddies are all for it. Said his opinion is that it will definately help cut crime.


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## bass186 (Oct 7, 2010)

Look if your old enough (17 with parental consent) to die for your country by joining any branch of the service then you should be able to enjoy all the rights and privileges that everyone 21 and up does! I've fought along side plenty of 17 year old young men and women that I trust with a gun more than some adults much older. And have had said age group save my butt on more than one occasion as well. So while not everyone should be able to carry a gun but at the sometime a persons age sometimes isn't the best gage to judge a person by. IMHO. And I could go on and on about practice and going to the range and what not but that is a topic for another day. But I will say that going to the range and being proficient with your weapon is a must if you decide to carry it, that way you are at least giving yourself a little better fighting chance of surviving a firefight just due to muscle memory alone heaven forbid you actually have to draw your weapon to protect yourself and/or your family. Just saying shooting paper and a real firefight are too entirely different things!


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## RonA (Jul 8, 2012)

Found this chart today... for your information


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## AndyS (Nov 22, 2011)

bass186 said:


> ... But I will say that going to the range and being proficient with your weapon is a must if you decide to carry it, that way you are at least giving yourself a little better fighting chance of surviving a firefight just due to muscle memory alone heaven forbid you actually have to draw your weapon to protect yourself and/or your family. Just saying shooting paper and a real firefight are too entirely different things!


Not to denigrate the value of "range training" at all ... and your point regarding "muscle memory" is a valid one.

However -
I took a shooting course once (one of probably a dozen or so over the years) where they spoke of a study that was done of inmates that had shot police officers.

They interviewed a whole bunch of inmates as to the tactics of the actual shooting. Most of them happened from within six feet of the Officer and the bad guy ... and in most of them sights were not used at all. The most common response was "_I just pulled out the gun, pointed it at him, and pulled the trigger." _Most of the shooters had minimal previous "range" training.


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## Donut slayer (Jan 16, 2009)

AndyS said:


> Not to denigrate the value of "range training" at all ... and your point regarding "muscle memory" is a valid one.
> 
> However -
> I took a shooting course once (one of probably a dozen or so over the years) where they spoke of a study that was done of inmates that had shot police officers.
> ...


I agree with Andy. Sights are a afterthought in a real life shooting. I know personally.


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