# What did I hit



## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

While running over to Pensacola from Orange Beach on Friday.We hit somthing solid as heck. Felt like some type of concrete. Was not able to see anything above surface. Blessed none of the kids were thrown out of the boat. We were running mile and half to two mile of land water depth was 20ft five miles west of Pensacola beach. Damage is a lot worst than initial inspection. Did not take on water but big chunk of glass out of hull and busted/cracks pretty good inside rear hull compartment(for all that is visible) Now I get to see if self insuring pays off. O yea need good repair guy.........


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## lastcast (Oct 12, 2007)

Where you just west of Pensacola Pass?(Massachusetts)

Skip


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## reel-crazzzy (Sep 7, 2008)

if you were approaching pensacola pass from the west and saw a red wreck bouy off to your straboard it was the *USS Massachusetts or whats left of it . tide was full yesterday and it was probably completly submerged . :banghead:banghead:banghead there have been many vessels sunk or torn up by that big hunk of steel and alot of captians pride injured as well. glad no one was injured.*


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## curtpcol (Sep 29, 2007)

Almost a guaranteed it was the Mass. The red wreck buoy is approx. 200 yards southfrom the wreck I think and at high tide it would be about two or three feet under the water. Many boats have hit the Ol Mass. & some didn't make it . Sorry for yourencounter it could have been a lot worse.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *reel-crazzzy (7/12/2009)*if you were approaching pensacola pass from the west and saw a red wreck bouy off to your straboard it was the *USS Massachusetts or whats left of it . tide was full yesterday and it was probably completly submerged . :banghead:banghead:banghead there have been many vessels sunk or torn up by that big hunk of steel and alot of captians pride injured as well. glad no one was injured.*


My thoughts also...the Mass...I've heard of many people hitting it. I'm sure it is on a chart and that is why it's important to purchase the chart for the areas you will be in..but why isn't there any markings on top of it. You'd think with the many people that have hit the Mass it would be well marked:banghead:banghead:banghead


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## curtpcol (Sep 29, 2007)

I'm with you Tuna Man seems like there would be a Marker right on top of it. I've came close hitting it coming back from offshore fishing during bad weather if it was not for electronics I know for a fact I would have hit it ( Scary). Spoke with the Coast Guard and what I was told was to buy a map end of story . By the way I do have a map.


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## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

Yeap!!!!!!!! That had to be it guys. Was running about 25 knots when I hit. Hit about mid way back which caused rear of boat to leave water, therfore engines didn't hit which deff saved transom and major damage. My exacts thoughts were why is there not a marker on top of it. From Pascagoula, all hazards over this way are properly marked with a Pole and Wreck marking. Praise be to God that my kids and I are safe. They had a great time watching Blue Angels.........


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## Gulf Coast Outfitters (Oct 8, 2007)

There is a buoy marking it but its about 100 yards off.


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## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

100 yards off make since to me......NOT


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## Quicdraw (Oct 3, 2007)

hell dont feel bad several years ago a charter boat capt hit it, destroyed the hull


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## Nat (Oct 10, 2007)

I think it's on the charts as hazard

What type boat are you running?

http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/flshipwrecks/mas.htm

http://wikimapia.org/5270040/Wreck-of-the-USS-Massachusetts-BB-2

http://www.bobhenneman.info/Masswreck.htm


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## HighCotton (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Slamtastic (7/12/2009)* Praise be to God that my kids and I are safe.


You and your kids are VERY fortunate to have escaped injury or worse,hitting the Massat 25 knots. It is best to pass South ofthe Mass bouy, if running East / West in that area. Were there no boats anchored up fishing or diving?


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## fulltilt06 (Jun 27, 2009)

I am with everybody on this one. If you came out the Alabama pass and was coming up to the Pensacola pass and hit something, it was the Massachusetts. The Massachusetts is not marked in the spot it should be, hence so many people hitting it. Consider your self very lucky !!!!


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## Bigg J (Nov 7, 2007)

Sorry dude that sucks, glad you and the fam are alright.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

Here's the GPS readings for the south turret mountthat is about a foot below the water there is another turret mountabout 50 feet from this shallower one that is about 3 or 4 feet down. Just give these coordanites about 300 feet clearance and you will be fine. The South turret mount gets quite a large amount of bottom paint from time to time if you know what I mean...:banghead

N30 17.797 W87 18.726


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

If it had been at low tide your story would have had a much different ending. At times the west turret is more than 1 foot out of the water especiallyin the troughs between waves. I too do not understand why they could not just put a bouy right on top of it. It is difficult enough to see sometimes when you are trying to find it to catch some bait.


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## Eastern Tackle (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm trying to think, would properly marking this wreck be a COE responsibility or a Coast Guard responsibility?





http://www.uscg.mil/d8/



A letter to the commander about the issue would be a good place to start in getting it fixed, which would be pretty easy from the sounds of it.



Rear Admiral Mary E. Landry

Eighth Coast Guard District

Hale Boggs Federal Building

500 Poydras Street

New Orleans, LA 70130 





Sorry, I couldn't find an email address.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

> *Eastern Tackle (7/12/2009)*I'm trying to think, would properly marking this wreck be a COE responsibility or a Coast Guard responsibility?
> 
> 
> http://www.uscg.mil/d8/
> ...


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

Whey HELL doesnt the city / county / coast guard take an underwater cutting torch down there and lop those smoke stacks off?????


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## amberj (Oct 1, 2007)

Is what you hit.


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## bayou bandit (Oct 1, 2007)

Another place in this area that gets hit from time to time has been the old ballast stones in Pensacola Bay that are just off the SE side of NAS. This past year, some agency finally placed 3 perimeter markers around them to warn boaters of their presence. The markers are some pilings that encircle the pile of stones and are a great landmark for those who are navigating around NAS on their way to the pass. I doubt that pilings, such as those in the bay, would be durable enough to withstand the waters around the USS MASS for too long, but some kind of markers should be placed directly around it so that this kind of accident doesn't happen again. The buoy to the south is fine for those returning from sea, and many often use it as a reference point. However, that buoy alone is not sufficient enough to ensure that accidents won't continue to happen. Does anyone know who placed the markers around the stones by NAS? They might be the first ones to contact for this project.


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## Jighead (Feb 11, 2009)

Why would the powers at be sink a ship of that size in 20 feet of water? How far is it off the beach?


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Jighead (7/12/2009)*Why would the powers at be sink a ship of that size in 20 feet of water? How far is it off the beach?


It wassunk by the Navy in 1927 to be used as target practice. Back then who'd ever thought it would be that much of a problem. Things we do today will be what kind of a problem 50...60...70...or 80 years from now:banghead


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## HighCotton (Oct 2, 2007)

I remember being told the Mass was sunk in deeper water& then was pushed into shallower water by a storm, years later.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

If it was in fact sunk then used for target practice, it most likely at one point in time stuck out of the water.


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## HighCotton (Oct 2, 2007)

Im guessing the blue arrow points to the exposed portions , not the red arrows. Anyone know for sure?


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## Pinksnappertrapper (Dec 7, 2007)

above and to the left of the blue arrow. The smoke stacks are whats exposed.


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## sealark (Sep 27, 2007)

I can tell you for a fact the area he hit was the red arrows there isn't anything left above the red arrows area. There is another one on the aft end just like the red arrows only that one is about 3 foot underwater.


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## reel-crazzzy (Sep 7, 2008)

I"m with you Sealark. +1


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

Has anybody asked the Coasties about putting bouys around the Mass? "Buy a chart" is a BS answer. No small boater navigates with a chart. "You should..." is also BS. 

The correct answer is that the government needs to protect us from ourselves here. There's a poorly marked hazard to navigation right outside the pass. 95% of local boaters know about it, probably by word of mouth. Most people have not had the training to read and interpret a chart. Charts are made for slow moving large ships not a Center Console doing 30 knots a mile off the beach in 20 feet of water.

The Coast Guard need to get off there high horse and fix a known problem before somebody gets hurt. Saying that the current bouy and chart markings are adequate is just turning their backs to a potential for disaster.

JMHO,

Jim


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## Pinksnappertrapper (Dec 7, 2007)

> *jim t (7/12/2009)*Has anybody asked the Coasties about putting bouys around the Mass? "Buy a chart" is a BS answer. No small boater navigates with a chart. "You should..." is also BS.
> 
> The correct answer is that the government needs to protect us from ourselves here. There's a poorly marked hazard to navigation right outside the pass. 95% of local boaters know about it, probably by word of mouth. Most people have not had the training to read and interpret a chart. Charts are made for slow moving large ships not a Center Console doing 30 knots a mile off the beach in 20 feet of water.
> 
> ...


JIM, YOU SIR ARE 100% RIGHT. IT IS BULLSHIT THAT ITS THE WAY IT IS AND I CAN ALMOST BET MY LAST BOTTOM DOLLAR ITS GOING TO STAY BULLSHIT.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *jim t (7/12/2009)*The Coast Guard need to get off there high horse and fix a known problem before somebody gets hurt. Saying that the current bouy and chart markings are adequate is just turning their backs to a potential for disaster.JMHO,Jim


They will mark them after it's too late...wait till the mayor's daughter, some Senator's son gets killed and see how long it will take to mark it properly.


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## BOHUNTER1 (Feb 18, 2008)

WHY SPEND MONEY PROTECTING PEOPLE WHEN YOU CAN BAIL OUT PEOPLE WHO STEAL THE MONEY!


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## Jhoe (May 4, 2009)

Well I imagine if the coast guard moves that marker that you could come to the conclusion that they are admitting they had it in the wrong spot. Then, you can try to make a case against the coast guard for having the bouy in the wrong place. Also, it sounds like plenty of people here know that the bouy is in the wrong place. Therefore, if they move it, how many people are going to slam into the ship thinking they are fine by the bouy?



I say either cut part of the thing off, or put something that will clearly breach the water during all tides and make it obvious where the thing is. The only thing I know is that I wouldn't plan on the coast guard moving that marker.


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## Jighead (Feb 11, 2009)

How far off the beach is the wreck?


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## dockmaster (Sep 27, 2007)

Seeing as how the CG sends me a retirement check every month, here's my take. 

The lateral buoy system is in place due to commerce. Ever wonder why all the buoys and day markers seem to lead to places that make money? See any buoys in Perdido Bay or River? The ICW is marked and kept dredged out due to barge traffic. The main shipping channel is marked because of the Navy base and the Port of Pensacola, Bayou Chico and Gulf Power up the river. I believe the CG take is that the professional mariner WILL us a chart and understands how to do that. For a ship coming into Pensacola Bay, the Mass is adequately marked. I'd be surprised if the CG changed anything cause a few people have torn up lower units. They are trying to have less navigation aids instead of more. You have to admit, the MASS is off the beaten path for anyone using a boat for commerce............ If the CG put a bouy or marker out every where some one ran aground, while being out of the marked channel, it would cost a pretty penny.



The CG puts put out all kinds of navigational information, espically in the form of Notice to Mariners, etc. How many of the recreational guys use any of it? Probably not many, but its there and not to hard to use. I guess education is the key. 

Alot of guys can find a sunk car body or a tank on their GPS, but they cant find the Mass bouy or the wreck or read a chart even on their chart plotter, until they run over it......... Whats one of the first things you buy when you move to a new town? Mabey a MAP, and you use it to get around. Well charts are provided for you to get around on the water... There's a ton of info on charts, espically if your trying to navigate at night.............



Mabey Escambia County would be interested in marking the Mass somehow. The permit process goes thru the ACOE first and them to the CG for a private aid to navigation.



BTW, we at Port Ops put out the 3 markers for the rock piles on the North side of the base. Hopefully soon they will end up on a chart correction.



Rock on



BillD


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

> *dockmaster (7/12/2009)*Seeing as how the CG sends me a retirement check every month, here's my take.
> The lateral buoy system is in place due to commerce. Ever wonder why all the buoys and day markers seem to lead to places that make money? See any buoys in Perdido Bay or River? The ICW is marked and kept dredged out due to barge traffic. The main shipping channel is marked because of the Navy base and the Port of Pensacola, Bayou Chico and Gulf Power up the river. I believe the CG take is that the professional mariner WILL us a chart and understands how to do that. For a ship coming into Pensacola Bay, the Mass is adequately marked. I'd be surprised if the CG changed anything cause a few people have torn up lower units. They are trying to have less navigation aids instead of more. You have to admit, the MASS is off the beaten path for anyone using a boat for commerce............ If the CG put a bouy or marker out every where some one ran aground, while being out of the marked channel, it would cost a pretty penny.
> 
> The CG puts put out all kinds of navigational information, espically in the form of Notice to Mariners, etc. How many of the recreational guys use any of it? Probably not many, but its there and not to hard to use. I guess education is the key.
> ...


Bill,

Thanks for the response. I understand your unofficial answer. 

It sounds like a "follow the money" response. That's too bad, but I accept it as the probable response from the Coast Guard. It's sad thoughwhen an obvious problem has and obvious solution yet doesn't get done because the current solution is adequate for commercial interests. I'd like to see "public safety" enter the equation more often.

Thanks for your groups efforts at the rock piles!!!

And I'd say WAYless than 1% of pleasure boaters use NOTMARs... the ONLY time I looked at them was after Ivan. But for the Coast Guard to use that as a defense with pleasure boaters lack of knowledgeis just silly. Until EVERY pleasure boater is lisenced and TRAINED it's like a company talking about thesmall print on a lease contract. It's BS!!!

Jim

PS...Believe it or not, the FAA and commercial aviation runs about the same way. Many, many times it takes loss of life before something obviously safergetschanged in thecause of public safety.

PPS...ALL general aviation pilots are trained and aware of Notice to Airman (NOTAMs). I'm not a general aviation pilot so I don't know how well used they are. In commercial aviation they're used every day on every flight.


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## flappininthebreeze (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm with Dockmaster. There is ample information available to help any intelligent boater avoid a collision with the Mass. It's been in the same spot since <U>1921</U> for heaven's sake.

Licensure is not required for boat operation, and every time it comes up for debate, it is shouted down as an unnecessary restriction on people's apparent right to go out and be stupid and screw up. One had only to listen to radio traffic during the recentAir Show weekendto realize brains were not a prerequisite to boat operation. You have to have a license to drive a car, why not a boat?????

For those crying for more markers to protect them from themselves, I say grow up. Think about how much it costs to place and maintain a buoy and ask yourself if you are really that in need of assistance to avoid running into something, or would you just run into the buoys instead??

If you can't avoid it, just don't go over there.


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## lastcast (Oct 12, 2007)

Flappin, how far of coastlines have you run?

Skip


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## jaksprat (Jul 2, 2009)

Ruby Red Lips - If you were running from Pascagoula in the Century CC, I was out there Friday when you hit the Mass. It scared my family and I just as much as it did you. I'm glad you are all safe.

As a new boater to the area, I am surprised that such a hazard is not marked better.

After witnessing your incident, both my wife and I can not forget the image of your hull virtually on its side.

If so many incidents have occurred, I would hope that we can generate some support to better mark this hazard. I will be contacting the Coast Guard to see what can be done.


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## Worn Out (May 10, 2008)

It sure seems as though there was an adequately equipped USCG Buoy Tender in the area this week to have appropriately placed an appropriately (not confusing except for "WR") marked buoy on this wreck...Or just drop the existing one slap damned on top of it...

Otherwise observant operators approaching from the west see a red buoy as they are "returning" to our pass (well before the ship channel marks are visible from a "small boat") so they leave it to starboard and run in to it {how many times now?}.. The Buoy being red (shouldn't it be red / white?) is misleading... the "wr" is inadequate...


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

It's really pretty simple... here's a discussion I've heard before at an Admiral's staff meeting.

Admiral: I keep getting these letters about civilians hitting the USS Mass.

Chief of Staff: Yes sir, however we've investigated and it is charted and mapped in accordance to regs.

Admiral: Well why do civilians keep running over it.

Operations Officer: Well sir 99% of the civilians don't know the difference between a reg and a hole in the water.

Admiral: Okay, I understand, how do we fix this?

Chief of Staff: Well sir, we can suggest up the chain of command that all boaters be lisenced and trained, but that will cost a lot of $$ and be HUGELY unpopular amongst the "monkey boaters"...

Admiral: Any immediate solutions?

Operations Officer: We could contract to have the stacks cut down, but we estimate that will cost $1,000,000.

Admiral: Any other solutions?

Command Master Chief Petty Officer: We could triangulate the stacks with three inexpensive bouys like the ones in Navy Cut that the tugs and barges run over and destroy all the time. It'll cost about $3000 per year.

Chief of Staff: Yes sir, we could do that, but it'll become an ongoing expense, and we don't have that in the budget. And chances are HIGHLY likely that pleasure boaters will use these bouys as mooring bouys,. which is HIGHLY illegal.

Command Master Chief: He's correct sir, but it's just a good idea to do it anyway. (Did I mention the CMC is in his twilight tour?)

Admiral: (If he's a good one) Make it happen Master Chief...

And you know what? It really is THAT simple!!! :banghead:banghead:banghead

I've seen things like it done before.

Too often it's easier to say NO!!!

Jim


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## FishinFreak (Oct 2, 2007)

http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/flshipwrecks/mas.htm



Notice that the ship was stripped for scrap in the 40s (lack of superstructure above the turret holes that eat boats) and that there shall be not cutting off the turret holes because it is part of an archeological preserve. Hope you like her how she is because mother nature is the only force that's going to give her any modifications...


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

Hey, I was thinking about creating my own reef. I know where I can get a pretty good size steel hulled vessel to use. If I was to take it out there between the Mass. and the bouy and scuttled it do you think the coast guard, ACOE, or Escambia County would mind? I promise that most of the time it would be at least 1 foot below the surface and I'll make sure I tell everybody where it is so they don't run over it. I could do this right? I mean it's not like that area is the open gulf or anything. oke


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## FishinFreak (Oct 2, 2007)

http://www.spanamwar.com/Massachusettswreck.htm



http://www.spanamwar.com/massachu.htm (check out the flag on the tall mast. CRAAP?)



http://www.shipwreckexpo.com/flwestmassachusetts.htm (one pic post-sinking before she was stripped down)


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## flappininthebreeze (Jul 13, 2009)

Lastcast,

Probably further than you, but, since the Mass is only 1 1/2 miles out, what does it matter???

Bottom line is, if you venture beyond the dock, you need to be able to navigate any <U>*and all*</U> hazards you may encounter. If you go, *it's on you*.


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## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

Jaksprat, that was me... Thanks for sharing your families concern for out safty. Dude it happened so fast I had no idea what had happened. Thought at first we hit a log or something. New it was solid as heck. I just new when I trimed the engines up the lower units would be gone. Had my wife twodaugthers and threeneices on board. After making sure all were safe and not taking on water the rest of the day was great, otherthan one sea sick 9yo. As I said in earlier post damage a lot worst than initial inspection. Can see cracks inside rear compartment. Not as to the marking issue. I am a seasoned boater and thought I had done my homework. Oviously not. All wreck that are possible hazards in my home waters are marked with a pole and red marker with the letters W R E C K on it.The marker is on the hazard not 100 or 200 yards away. We have two major shiping channels here inPascagoula. Most major ships travel in the channel no parralell to it. I all way talk about local knowledge, yes is goes a long way.... Guy there are two type of boaters, those who have hade an incident and those who will...... SAFE BOATING TO ALL. Now I gotta get this rig fixed so I can get back on the fish


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## Chris Couture (Sep 26, 2007)

Glad everyone is safe!!!



The marker used to be a lot closer to the wreck but I think it was Hurricanes Erin and Opel that moved it. It's always a good plan to wiggle east a little bit anyway before hitting the pass because there is some shallow water areas that can cause the waves to build and make it rough getting across. I'm not saying go as far as the last buoy but don't hug the shore if you are coming from the west... That's always been what I've done...


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## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

Nat, I'm running a 26cc Century with twin 200hpdi


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## Chuck's Charters (Oct 3, 2007)

someone on one of my charters this year said some of the practiceartillery used on the Mass. was fired from a location on Pace Blvd.


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## fred (Dec 28, 2008)

I'm curious, what chart is supposed to have an NTM? I don't see one on 11382, 11383, or 11384.

The Charts do show the Mass "awash at MLLW" and the buoy about750 feet south.

Edit: OK, I'm figuring this out. The chart notes are the NTM, the ones with the circles are just the <U>*changed*</U> NTMs.


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

I have a novel idea!

Why don't we get some divers to go down there and tie a great big chain off to the wreck itself. We can attach the other end to a big metal fuel tank that we can paint bright yellow and put reflective tape on it.

Surely we can solve this ourselves if we put our collective minds to it. I have never had much luck getting the government to do anything to fix problems.


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## FLfishR (Oct 3, 2007)

> *Tuna Man (7/12/2009)*If it was in fact sunk then used for target practice, it most likely at one point in time stuck out of the water.


It did stick out of the water for years.


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## P-cola_Native (Feb 5, 2008)

Make sure youstay south of the fairwell bouy on the west side of the pass, and always come into the pass on the east side of the bouy line. You should never drive anywere near it.


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## Eastern Tackle (Jul 6, 2009)

The way I see it. If the coast guard is responsible for marking hazards and they knowingly do nothing to correct a known hazard, then they are negligent. Those are always layups in court.



Just like with the rules of the road on the water. They never matter until something happens. Then you better know them, how they apply to the situation and what you were doing in accordance with them (as well as what the other person was doing to violate them). It can make a difference in whether you get to keep your house or not.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *jim t (7/12/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *dockmaster (7/12/2009)*
> ...


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## Seachaser 186 (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree - I've wondered for a long time why the marker is so far away. Since I live here, I know about it but many people don't and it's easy to make a mistake at night or when the weather gets rough. The Coasties should be proactive about the situation instead of waiting for someone to be seriously injured or killed.


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## User6882 (Feb 4, 2009)

> *Quicdraw (7/12/2009)*hell dont feel bad several years ago a charter boat capt hit it, destroyed the hull


yea hes a buddy of mine.. capt skip mason


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

The wreck is clearly marked on navigational charts. If you're unfamiliar with the waters, consult the latest charts. You, as the captain, are responsible for the safe operation of your vessel. Case closed!


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## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

Cow Doctor, I will pledge the first 100.00 to get it done. I am truly blessed my family and I made it with no injuries and repairable boat damage


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## Hook (Oct 2, 2007)

Another reason for mandatory safe boating course. Not for the money but for saftey. When you buy a car you need a license to prove you know the rules of the road. Why buy a boat and go outblind?:banghead


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## Play'N Hooky Too (Sep 29, 2007)

> *Hook (7/14/2009)*Another reason for mandatory safe boating course. Not for the money but for safety. When you buy a car you need a license to prove you know the rules of the road. Why buy a boat and go outblind?:banghead


I agree that there should be some type of boater safety requirement just likefor driving a car. 

But, at the same time, consider that even though everyone on the road is required to have a driver's license the DOT and DPS still take precautions to prevent serious injury or death from known hazards on the roadway. Everybody that has a drivers license knows that you are suppose to slow down and prepare to stop when you see the light turn yellow. Does everyone do this? Yeah right. You also know that before you proceed after the light turns green that, for safety, you should look both ways to make sure that all opposing traffic has come to a stop.Now, if you pull out and get t-boned by a log truck and wind up on the slab down at the morgue, does it really matter that the truck should have stopped or that you should have looked both ways? 

The DOT and DPS could address thissituation a number of ways. They could do nothing and say "screw'em, they should have known the law or should have been more alert" or they couldaccept human nature and simply insert a 3 second delay betweenwhen the light turnsred and the opposing light turns green. The last solution,although requiring some effort on their part, is cheap, easyand savesalot of lives. 

Here we aren't even talking about something as visible as a traffic light. The wreck is located in open water, adjacent to one of the busiest recreational ports in Florida,is not visible above the surface and is, for all practical purposes, not marked.Seems like this is a no brainer.


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

> *Orion45 (7/13/2009)*The wreck is clearly marked on navigational charts. If you're unfamiliar with the waters, consult the latest charts. You, as the captain, are responsible for the safe operation of your vessel. Case closed!


Case Closed??? And you are????? 

The wreck is a navigational hazard and is improperly marked. Case open.


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

Jim, you are not actually suggesting that they take valuable time out from their day of riding around, and harrassing the people they are supposed to help protect????

Last I checked, FWC was much more interested in you having a whistle on board than they were about you killing yourself running over the titanic sunk in too shallow of water.....


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## P-cola_Native (Feb 5, 2008)

> *BigBrandon89 (7/13/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Quicdraw (7/12/2009)*hell dont feel bad several years ago a charter boat capt hit it, destroyed the hull
> ...


The Entertainer hit the Mass, and Skip wasn't the captain.


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## Hook (Oct 2, 2007)

Alanabarck; you have good points! Some of the responsible is on other hands of others. It is a two way street. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the Coast Guard is in charge ofthe maintence ofthe markers weather they make the decision of where they go or not.

My understanding was the guy is a new boater with little or no knowledge of boating or local waters. This is why, in my opinion,some type of asafe boating course / local information should be taken. One very good point they covered years ago was who has the right away in the water. Well afterthey covered that area the last word from them was even though you on the starboard sidehave the right away YOU must try to avoid the potential problem anyway.

I think we are all on somepart of the same page so lets try to have fun, be safe, and look out for novices in the water.:usaflag


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

> *Run Dover (7/14/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *Orion45 (7/13/2009)*The wreck is clearly marked on navigational charts. If you're unfamiliar with the waters, consult the latest charts. You, as the captain, are responsible for the safe operation of your vessel. Case closed!
> ...


Who am I? Someone who takes boating seriously, knows the rules of the road, and consults charts and local boatmen prior to venturing out in unfamiliar waters. Shoals and other obstructions, although not always marked by a buoy, are marked on navigational charts. Do you knowthe purpose of thethe big red and green whatchamacallits outside of the Pass? You can also enter the coordinates of the USS Mass in your GPS as a obstruction. The Pensacola Pass also has submerged rocks on the west side. Do you need those marked also? How about the sandbar that extends out from Deer Point? How about the sandbar east of Portofine in the ICW?

If you think the USS Mass is a navigation hazard and improperly marked, I suggest you write a letter to the USCG and address the issue. Meanwhile, consult you local charts.


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

[/quote]Who am I? Someone who takes boating seriously, knows the rules of the road, and consults charts and local boatmen prior to venturing out in unfamiliar waters. Shoals and other obstructions, although not always marked by a buoy, are marked on navigational charts. Do you knowthe purpose of thethe big red and green whatchamacallits outside of the Pass? You can also enter the coordinates of the USS Mass in your GPS as a obstruction. The Pensacola Pass also has submerged rocks on the west side. Do you need those marked also? How about the sandbar that extends out from Deer Point? How about the sandbar east of Portofine in the ICW?

If you think the USS Mass is a navigation hazard and improperly marked, I suggest you write a letter to the USCG and address the issue. Meanwhile, consult you local charts.[/quote]



You, of course, are right. 

The Pass is marked on the chart, so let's just remove the bouy's, and heck allchannels are CLEARLY marked on the charts, so let's just remove all the CHANNEL MARKERS.

If you decide that buoys and markers do serve a purpose, lets factor in the + - of accuracy. How far from the Mass is the Mass's bouy? Let's apply that margin of error to navigational channels like Orange Beach. Not good. 

Someone at some point thought that the Mass needed to have a bouy (I agree) but now it is useless due to its distance from the Mass.


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## JLMass (Oct 1, 2007)

they will mark it when something big hits it like a navy or coast guard ship or maybe some commercial ship


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## B.L. Laird (Jul 25, 2008)

The PFF forum has over 3000 hits on this subject.

I am so grateful that the people fromboat from Orange beach were not injured.

Who is in charge of marking this correctly, and we could request them to do their JOB!

:usaflag


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

Seems to me if someone spearheaded a petition of some sorts, we might just have enough pissed off boaters in this forum and among acquaintences to actually persuade someone to do something about it. I still think the best solution is cut the damn thing down about 20 feet lower with a cutting torch. One diver, one torch. Obstruction removed


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## reelthrill (Oct 3, 2007)

I have said for years they should have a buoy at each end of it.


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## Gump (Oct 4, 2007)

I have to agree with Orion45 on this one. I also feel that this is another reason for boaters to have more education with regards to boat operation. This wreck is marked on the chart, it is noted in the Coast Pilot, and also in the Light List. Plus any changes in the position of the bouy will be updated on the Notice to Mariners "which comes out weekly". All of these publications are available to the recreational mariner and should be utilized for safe operation. 



Gump...Out


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

There is a ship in the middle of a highly used passage. It sticks out of the water, the warning device is not in the correct place, and some people are not as informed as they should be. 

Jesus if this were a minor hazard at Walmart people would be all over it. But god forbid we actually get upset about something that is actually dangerous.


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

> *Gump (7/15/2009)*I have to agree with Orion45 on this one. I also feel that this is another reason for boaters to have more education with regards to boat operation. This wreck is marked on the chart, it is noted in the Coast Pilot, and also in the Light List. Plus any changes in the position of the bouy will be updated on the Notice to Mariners "which comes out weekly". All of these publications are available to the recreational mariner and should be utilized for safe operation.
> 
> Gump...Out


Obviously I am a terrible AMATEUR boater. The only reason I know the real position of the Mass in relation to it's bouy is by a local who showed me. 

"All of these publications are available to the recreational mariner" is great if the recreational mariner know's where to find them, orif they even think they might NEED them. I've been to 2 different boaters courses and nether has mentioned this resource or the need to consult it.

I do not run at 35 knots and follow my course line and position on a chart with dividers and parallel rulers. I must be a :looser.On my GPS, old 2004 vintage, the Mass is not marked any differently than the San Pablo. When I run over the San Pablo, I assume it is below the water surface more than 2 FT. Why did they sink the Oriskany where they did? Safety.

Notice To Mariners: From my aviation days, I remember that NOTAMS where for TEMPORY hazards, or hazards that have not yet been incorporated into charts. Is the inaccuracy of the Mass bouy still in NOTMAR? It shouldn't be. Do the current charts (not required) show the bouy that far off?

Bottom line: A boater with his family, on a clear day, was driving his boat as diligently as his experience allowed and hit a submerged object that is less than 2 ft under water. Thankfully nobody was seriuosly hurt!!!!!! Let's save all kinds of money and remove ALL visual references of Navigation hazards because they are depicted on a chart. Hell let's remove all signs on the roadways because they are all clearly depicted on a map.

Sorry for the ramble but.....

No boaters course is going to say avoid all bouys by 300 yds or more.

All it takes is a little stimulus money to move the MASS BOUY back to the MASS and secure it!!!! They can even save money by losing the bouy weight, take the chain and shackle it to the wreck. I'm sorry, is that rocket science?


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## choppedliver (Apr 4, 2009)

Ditto whatprevious poster said. 

This is a public safety issue, and a huge one. So sue someone for not checking out every bulletin, publication, for every safety hazard that could possibly be in the way before enjoying a leisurely stroll in the boat one fine afternoon. And god forbid they venture off the preplanned course because we ALL go in ONLY the areas we have checked ahead of time for hazards. We NEVER venture off course.

Yep, they deserve to hit a giant obstacle and die for their stupidity! :banghead


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

> *JLMass (7/15/2009)*they will mark it when something big hits it like a navy or coast guard ship or maybe some commercial ship


I seriously doubt that a *ship* will be straying in 25' of water.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

> *Run Dover (7/15/2009)...I do not run at 35 knots and follow my course line and position on a chart with dividers and parallel rulers. I must be a :looser.On my GPS, old 2004 vintage, the Mass is not marked any differently than the San Pablo. When I run over the San Pablo, I assume it is below the water surface more than 2 FT. ...*


*

The San Pablo is in approximately 80' of water. If you look at the chart, you'll notice the water around the Mass wreckaround 22 feet. The chart also shows the bouy south of the actual wreck. Does that mean anything to you? You don't have to use plotters and dividers to navigate. If you consult the chart you'll see the relationship of the bouy to the wreck. Also, your GPS most likely allows you toassign different symbolsto the coordinates that you enter in it. I'm sure yours must have a symbol indicating caution/danger/wreck.

What makes you think placing a bouy on top of the Mass wreck will prevent boaters from hitting the wreck again? I have a mooring bouy in the ICW. White float with reflective blue stripe. The bouy is in shallow water connected to a 7' auger driven into the sand by 7' of cable. I see boats skirting the bouy all the time barely missing it.

I'm not arguing the point that the bouy should not be moved. I'm sorry people have hit the wreck and I'm glad that there hasn't been any loss of life yet. All I'm saying is that the boat captain is responsible for the safe navigation. The information is all there for him to use.










I'm editing this before anyone brings up the "Not For Navigation" disclaimer on the bottom of the chart. This is a reproduction of a NOOA chart from a web site. It's for information only and not navigation. The NOOA chart will not have the disclaimer printed on it. The link to the web site is provided below.

http://www.thiswaytothe.net/cgi-bin/wreckfetch.pl?area=panhandle&name=USS%20Massachusettszzzlat%3D30.29661667%26lon%3D-87.31233333*


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## Slamtastic (Dec 29, 2007)

Guys i am a seasoned boater with over 25 years on the water who had an accident and was blessed that no one wasinjured. Just from the hits alone on this topic my incident may save someones life. Safe boating to all.....


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## birdsnest (Oct 2, 2007)

The story I've always heard is that when the Navy was towing it out for target practice it began to sink on it's own. Rather than have it go down in the middle of the channel, they pulled it to it's current resting place. I remember when it had a platform on the tops of the turrents. Back in the 60's my father jumped on to it from my uncle's boat, slipped on the algae and cracked a couple of ribs. 

I agree that the bouy should be closer. I have both turrents marked on my GPS and still managed to drop an anchor inside one which resulted in losing it. Even when I knew the offset from the bouy I still wandered over it when the turrets were submerged.


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## Gump (Oct 4, 2007)

Rundover





My post was not an attack on anybody. I was simply trying to explain that these publications and resources are in place to provide the mariner "both novice & professional" with the information needed to safely operate in a given area. 

If you took a course, and it did not cover the publications listed, then this would simply reinforce the argument that boaters education needs to be taken to a higher level. No need to keep beating a dead horse, so I will let this one go for now.



be safe everyone.



Gump...Out


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