# Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms



## Magic236 (Oct 1, 2007)

*Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Here's the article in today's paper....<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Press-Register/Ben Raines)Red Snapper on a dock at Dauphin Island after a chartered deep sea fishing trip this summer. A congressional mandated deadline to end the overfishing of red snapper is threatening to splinter the longtime alliance between charter boat captains and recreational fishermen against the Gulf's commercial fleet.
As the congressionally mandated deadline to end overfishing of red snapper by 2010 approaches, the longtime alliance between charter boat captains and recreational fishermen against the Gulf's commercial fleet is in danger of splintering. 

Each recreational group suspects the other of catching more than its fair share of their collective 2.5 million-pound snapper quota in 2009. 

Part of the problem, say federal officials, is that no one can definitively say how many fish the private recreational fishermen landed, as they don't report their catch like commercial anglers and some charter boats do. Now, a group of charter captains is pushing to be regulated the same way commercial fishermen are, meaning a "catch share" system. 

That has prompted talk among regulators of new ways to divvy up the recreational snapper harvest, including lotteries, snapper tags, or even a snapper stamp that must be purchased with an annual fishing license. 

"This is all very preliminary," said Bob Shipp, president of the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council. "There will be a whole lot of talk and a whole lot of public comment before anything like that happened." 

The Gulf's legal snapper harvest is divided between the commercial and recreational fleets, with 51 percent going to commercial vessels, and 49 percent to charter captains and recreational anglers in private boats. 

Since 2007, under the first "catch share" system ever established in the Gulf, each commercial snapper boat gets a set number of pounds in the beginning of the year and is allowed to fish until that individual quota has been filled.<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Proponents say it helped stabilize the price of snapper by ensuring it's available year round, rather than during a set snapper season. Plus, it allows fishermen to go to sea in favorable weather, rather than being forced to fish every day during a set season. 

"Save Our Sector," a group of about 200 of the Gulf's more than 1,100 charter boat captains, have told regulators those same advantages would help their industry. And they say they could easily report what they catch each day to ensure they don't go over quota. 

Orange Beach Fishing Association President Ben Fairey said such a program is exactly what federal regulators have been saying they wanted. 

"The plan will allow us, as a (charter fishing) sector, to know where we are at any given time in the season and it will allow us to plan ahead," he said. 

Critics say splitting the charter boats away from the recreational fishermen dilutes their political power and gives the charter captains a way to dodge the stricter limits for 2010 they helped cause. 

Preliminary federal estimates suggest that recreational and charter boat anglers exceeded their quota by as much as 2 million pounds this year. Under federal law, that may mean a shorter season for 2010, or anglers won't be allowed to keep as many fish each day. 

Shipp said it was "likely" that some kind of catch share system will be created for recreational anglers. 

Under such a system, there would probably not be a traditional snapper season. Instead, a lottery might be held among recreational anglers for the right to catch snapper that year, much like the lotteries held for alligator hunting in Alabama or elk hunting in the West. Or, anglers could purchase tags that would allow them to catch a set number of snapper in a year. Such a system is in place on a much smaller scale in the Midwest for paddlefish. 

Chris Dorsett, with the Ocean Conservancy, said the push for "sector separation" was really about accountability, something he called a "key principle of fishery management." 

"We want to ensure that fishing fleets are held accountable, including the recreational fleet," Dorsett said. "You look at red snapper, what you see is the commercial fish<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Related info.....<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: khaki; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 11.25pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: #444e5c; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">A 2007 change to federal law governing the nation's fisheries requires that overfishing -- the removal of too many fish from a fishery to support a healthy population -- end by 2010. The deadline has federal officials setting stricter limits for some fisheries and closing others. Fishermen believe red snapper *<SPAN style="COLOR: #0c4790; TEXT-DECORATION: none; text-underline: none">is doing much better than federal estimates* indicate and are asking to be allowed to catch more fish, so long as scientists agree the population continues to increase.<o></o></o><o></o>


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

:doh:doh:doh:doh:doh:doh:doh:doh:doh 

:banghead:banghead:banghead:banghead:banghead:banghead

end commercial fishing of any fish that is deemed in danger of over fishing. this should be a no brainer.

give red snapper, grouper and ajs game fish status! 

take away the decision making for game fish from the dept. of COMMERCE and put it in the hands of the dept of interior where it belongs. they are experienced at game management. 

subsidize the commercial sector and move them to aquaculture. 

we have already done it on land it is time to do it in the water.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

If they were given the game fish satis you would not be able to keep ANY to bring home!



Redfish are only allowed in state waters. that is not a good Idea IMO.


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## Dylan (Apr 15, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Nextstep if you end it where are the Yankees going to get there fish?:doh


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

i am judging no one.

this is common sense


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## pappastratos (Oct 9, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

<SPAN id=_ctl1_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl3_lblFullMessage>_*If they were given the game fish satis you would not be able to keep ANY to bring home!*_


yeah you are right, while foreign fisherman stay in international waters & catch a zillion pounds of red snapper of all sizes,,,,""no speak english" !!!

maybe I should get my boat registered in Mexico or Central America, catch what I want,


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Nextstep



If it is common sense why do you need it to be a sport fish only (you don't eat them? cause you wont be bring any home as a sport fish) We Don't have a snapper issue we have a Management problem.


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## Pass Time (Feb 6, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Let us not forget that is not just the commercial fisherman, charter fishermen, and private sector fishermen that are contributing to the supposed depleted red snapper stocks. the statistics already show that the number one contributor to the supposed demise of the ARS in the northern gulf is the gulf shrimping industry. Over *90%* of their by-catch is juvenile red snapper and I believe the mortality rate for those are *100%*. Laws are already in place for netters to come up with a fish excluding device similar to the turtle exclusion device from the 80's to help relieve some of the destruction of this species. I found this information while I was poking around on the NOAA website. I wish I would have copied a link to post but I didn't.

Millions of pounds of *juvenile* ARS are killed each season by these netters. Imagine that a snapper will grow about 2lbs per year and then think of the damage in pounds these netters are actualy doing to this species alone. If i am not mistaken a large part of the other 10% was triggerfish followed by gag grouper.

i will try to find and post this article tonite or tommorrow.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Fish excluding devices 



Have been in use for years. most all shrimping Data is out of date Cause if it was current you would see shrimping effort is down.


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## -=Desperado=- (Jun 19, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *capt.eugene (11/16/2009)*If they were given the game fish satis you would not be able to keep ANY to bring home!
> 
> Redfish are only allowed in state waters. that is not a good Idea IMO.


Huh?i know of other fish including striped bass that were given game fish status and your allowed to keep in federal warers gamefish just restricts to recreational anglers.spanish mackeral are considered gamefish and i never heard of anyone getting ticketed for fed water take only.i believe the fedral rule ONLY APPLIES to redfish.


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



we have exclusive rights to the gulf off our coasts i believe, and if im not mistaken 200 miles from the shore in the oceans

if this is true that would be where the majority of red snappers, groupers and ajs would live.

of course pelagic are a whole other ball of wax


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

thats one thing we definitely agree on capt. e 

there is a serious management problem


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## -=Desperado=- (Jun 19, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Six species have game fish status (redfish, snook, tarpon, bonefish, sailfish, and permit over 20 inches in length), meaning that they may not be sold.

straight from the fwc website.nothing about state waters only.each fish has there own rules.i agree with mark.make red snapper a gamefish NOW.no size limit,angler must not throw none back,4 per person per day.season should be april 1 to nov 1.that would be the best thing the feds ever did period


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I for one support the combining of the charter fleet with commercial boats. This way the fishing industry is combined and can fish 12 months a year. I also support that the combined charter and commercial fishing industry get 51% of the TAC and they can split that amongst themselves as they see fit. I totally oppose any reduction of the 49% TAC allotted to recreational anglers. It's bad enough that a public resource is given to private industry for their profit and we should not allow any more of that resource to be taken from the American recreational anglers.



Kim


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## Brandy (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/16/2009)*I for one support the combining of the charter fleet with commercial boats. This way the fishing industry is combined and can fish 12 months a year. I also support that the combined charter and commercial fishing industry get 51% of the TAC and they can split that amongst themselves as they see fit. I totally oppose any reduction of the 49% TAC allotted to recreational anglers. It's bad enough that a public resource is given to private industry for their profit and we should not allow any more of that resource to be taken from the American recreational anglers.
> 
> Kim


 I also agree with them combining. I also think that the rec guys should get more %. If the snapper industry is so important ,they should be able to raise the price to compensate for low stocks. Thats the way economics work. When gas supplies are down the price goes up and so forth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## BJW (Oct 1, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

The commercial fishermen must be silently laughing their arse off about this one. Come on guys. The common enemy of the recreatonal angler, both those that own a boat and those that have to pay to fish on someone else's boat is the commercial fishermen. The only clear solution to the snapper problem is the end to commercial fishing for snapper. To quote from my earlier post on this issue:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=smalltxt vAlign=top><SPAN id=_ctl1_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl6_lblFullMessage>

If the government thinks that the Red Snapper is in danger, why is there any commercial fishing?If the fishery is truely in danger, then the commercial guys will soon be out of business anyway, either becasue there will come a point when there are no fish left or the value of the limited catch will not cover the costs of harvesting the fish. If the situation is as dire as the feds indicate, simply cease commercial fishing now before all of the Red Snapper are gone and the commercial fishermen go out of business anyway. Red Snapper should be a game fish and there should not be a commercial harvest. 

Now I will hear the cries from the commercial fishermen.They like to compare themselves to other forms of harvesting natural resources. But there is a bigdifference.Farmers own or lease the land and plant the crops themselves. Loggers own the land orpay for the timber rights. Thesame applies for mining. But, somehow commercial fisherman have taken the position that they have some inherent right to the natural resouce that they do not pay for andwhich belongs to all of us. One time when I made this argument I got the response: "Dont' pay for! It costs us a lot to catch fish." But farmers, miners and loggers also have a substantial investment in time, expense and equipment used to harvest. Thedifference is that the farmers, miners and loggersraiseor pay for the resources they harvest in additon to their cost of harvesting equipment. Interestlngly, there are some people who pay for and raise the fish they sell, just not the guys who fish commercially for Red Snapper. 

Then there are the cries about all of the commercial fishermen that will be out of work.Things change. Types of jobs come and go. At some point you have to accept the change and move on.And, as noted earlier, if the Red Snapper population is in such danger these guys will be out of business eventaully anyway. Why not shut them down now while there are still some fish left? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Pass Time (Feb 6, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *BJW (11/16/2009)*The commercial fishermen must be silently laughing their arse off about this one. Come on guys. The common enemy of the recreatonal angler, both those that own a boat and those that have to pay to fish on someone else's boat is the commercial fishermen. The only clear solution to the snapper problem is the end to commercial fishing for snapper. To quote from my earlier post on this issue:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




+1:clap


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## FISHBOXFULL (May 9, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Pass Time (11/16/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *BJW (11/16/2009)*The commercial fishermen must be silently laughing their arse off about this one. Come on guys. The common enemy of the recreatonal angler, both those that own a boat and those that have to pay to fish on someone else's boat is the commercial fishermen. The only clear solution to the snapper problem is the end to commercial fishing for snapper. To quote from my earlier post on this issue:
> ...


well said


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## Magic236 (Oct 1, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

BJW, great points.


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## Gary S. Colecchio (Nov 5, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">


> *capt.eugene (11/16/2009)*If they were given the game fish satis you would not be able to keep ANY to bring home!


 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That is not true. Gamefish status isnot analogous to catch and release. Recreational take is allowed.<o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Efforts to link charterboat fishermen holding dual licenses to recreational is false. This is a small group of operatorsseeking to not only confuse the issue but further reduce the recreational"share"of fish that does not even exist.<o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Time to pick a side, either you fish under recreational regulations or commercial.You can't have it both ways.<o></o>


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> That is not true. Gamefish status is not analogous to catch and release. Recreational take is allowed.
> 
> Efforts to link charterboat fishermen holding dual licenses to recreational is false. This is a small group of operators seeking to not only confuse the issue but further reduce the recreational "share" of fish that does not even exist.
> 
> Time to pick a side, either you fish under recreational regulations or commercial. You can't have it both ways.






May be the case that it is not analogous to catch and release.



But Federally speaking 



Redfish were given game fish satis you can not Harvest them in federal waters.



Same with Jewfish or Goliath.



Redfish are only allowed in state waters.


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## 230 Cobia (Mar 25, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I agree with no comercial sale of red snapper it seem like a forgone conclusion. Hopefully the sooner the better


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## Gary S. Colecchio (Nov 5, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *capt.eugene (11/17/2009)*
> 
> 
> > That is not true. Gamefish status is not analogous to catch and release. Recreational take is allowed.
> ...


Game fish status does not prohibit take. What it means is that _commercial _fishing for that species is prohibited.

Red drum is undergoing rebuilding and the take is current prohibited in federal waters.

Goliaths are not gamefish and enjoy (misdirected ) protection by the feds and state as listed species.


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## stringle (Oct 3, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Welcome Capt Colecchio, 

I'm glad you showedup here. I was on the verge of pointing to your posts (with your permission), butit's so much better first hand. Thanks for all you do and breaking this situation down. 

V/R

V

:usaflag


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## Gary S. Colecchio (Nov 5, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Thanks for the welcome. It seems I've worn it out with the new administrator at FS.

Which is too bad. I'm on the Governor's nominee list for Julie Morris's Gulf of Mexico Council Fisheries Management Council seat. I need the exposure there.

I have support from the major Rec. groups and a few envro- NGOs. I need the support of all rec.s to get the top of that list. We are well into the fight. One more friendly seat on that councilcould turn the tide in our favor.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Gary,

If there is anything that I as a concerned citizen of the State of Florida can do to support your nomination for the Gulf Councilseat, please let me know. 

Mark W


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Gary S. Colecchio (11/18/2009)*Thanks for the welcome. It seems I've worn it out with the new administrator at FS.
> 
> Which is too bad. I'm on the Governor's nominee list for Julie Morris's Gulf of Mexico Council Fisheries Management Council seat. I need the exposure there.
> 
> I have support from the major Rec. groups and a few envro- NGOs. I need the support of all rec.s to get the top of that list. We are well into the fight. One more friendly seat on that councilcould turn the tide in our favor.


This is great to hear. You have my support. Thank you for keeping us informed. And as Mark said if there is anything we can do please let us know.


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## reeltime (Aug 4, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *markw4321 (11/18/2009)*Gary,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Same here. Please let us know anything we can do to help.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Captain Gary, If I may ask a few questions?? 



First, where do you stand on the SOS plan??



Second, where do you stand on the historical catch plan??



Kim


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## stringle (Oct 3, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Gary S. Colecchio (11/18/2009)*Thanks for the welcome. It seems I've worn it out with the new administrator at FS.
> 
> Which is too bad. I'm on the Governor's nominee list for Julie Morris's Gulf of Mexico Council Fisheries Management Council seat. I need the exposure there.
> 
> I have support from the major Rec. groups and a few envro- NGOs. I need the support of all rec.s to get the top of that list. We are well into the fight. One more friendly seat on that councilcould turn the tide in our favor.


Roger that Gary, hence my boycott tonight. I have time and a computer and am a willing participant if you can point me.I can also travel. My problem is that I didn't get as fired up about the issue as I should have since I do not fish for ARS or AJ. I do see, however the long term issues (NOW!). Again, welcome.:letsdrink


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/18/2009)*Captain Gary, If I may ask a few questions??
> 
> First, where do you stand on the SOS plan??
> 
> Kim


Kim see comments on thread you originallystarted with respect to SOS plan question.

http://pensacolafishingforum.com/fishingforum/Topic456034-2-1.aspx

Mark W


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## Gary S. Colecchio (Nov 5, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/18/2009)*Captain Gary, If I may ask a few questions??
> 
> First, where do you stand on the SOS plan??
> 
> ...


As I've psoted. I do not support any subdivison of the recreational fishery TAC. Charterboat operators only role when operating under recreational licensure is to provide access to fisheries by recreational fishermen.

SOS is comprised or charterboat / comercial fishermen who seek to blurr the bright line distinction between commercial fishermen , who sell fish, and charterboat operators , who sell _fishing._

This was tolerated in the past but now that commercials want to subdivide recreational TAC and engage in catch sharing,we as recreational fishermen must take a position of again defending ourselves fromcommericial influence on the council, who's lobbying has resulted in 80/20 split of the resource.

It's time to choose sides, either you fish commercially or recreationally.

On history, I have to look at the quality of the data used in the modeling to develop the rulemaking. Applyingmy backround in water quality data collection QA/QC,I see inconsistancies inwhich should not be used together in developing historic catch figures much less rule making based upon them.

Good, verifiable and defensible data is key to rulemaking. No data , no rule. I'm sorry if I oversimplifiedit but that's my position.


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## fishn4real (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I'm late to the party here, but of course I've got a comment or two.

Nextstep, your plan is the most sensible presented since any of this BS started. Get the Red Snapper out of the fish markets and restaurants and the availability of the species will skyrocket.

Capt. Eugene: you obviously are not a Redfish fisherman. I am, and I know a lot of recreational fishermen who fish for Redfish. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO GO INTO FEDERAL WATERS TO FISH FOR REDFISH?:banghead. By your statements about that, it appears that you would want to lead the readers here to believe that if the Red Snapper is classified as a sport fish -then recreational fishermen would only be allowed to fish for Red Snapper in State waters. That is the most assinine line of flawed reasoning that I've ever come across, and believe me, I have heard a lot of it. If you do a bit of research you would learn that Redfish in deep waters are typically the large breeders and therefore should be protected; the commercial fishing vessels, off-shore, were taking all sizes of Redfish for the fish markets and restaurants, including the bull reds, and there is why the Redfish became endangered. Having been declared a sport fish, the commercial vessels were no longer allowed to take the Redfish, the breeders in deep water are allowed to live and reproduce, and a government plan finally is working. The Redfish is repopulating and is prolific.

There are many ways to solve the Red Snapper issue, but the first steps are going to be to get the management of the fisheries out from under the Department of Commerce. Then get the Red Snapper off the menu in restaurants, and out of the fish markets.


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## Hook (Oct 2, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Once again I must ask the question. What happened to Commercial Hunting? :doh It looks like this will happen to Commercial Fishing also one day.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Captain Gary, what you say sounds pretty good today but what will you be saying in five or ten years? Right now the charter fleet and recreational anglers are in direct competition for limited fisheries resources. Recreational anglers do it for fun and the charter fleet "sells fishing" as their means of earning a living. At some point it seems you will have to choose to have fun or make money and you have already said that you can't do both. 



What do you think your views will be in five or ten years? There will be more recreational anglers than there are now and about the same number of commercial and charter boats which means there will be more pressure on the resources and more regulation to try and please most of those involved. At what point do you think you will make your choice to continue to "sell fishing" for a living or find a new job and start fishing as a recreational angler? If you get on the council the decisions you will help make will have an impact on the future of fishing. I seems like that many of the people that get on these councils have their own interests and agenda in mind when they get there. That's the reason our fisheries are in such a sorry state today. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the long haul here.



This is a real complex issue and there are no easy answers involved. Can commercial fishing be stopped?? Not in this lifetime because of how big it's grown and how much money is involved, that's why the Department of Commerce handles that and that probably won't change. I also believe that it is only a matter of time until the Department of Commerce combines the charter boat fleet with the commercial fleet in an effort to save their jobs. This will lead to an ever greater division of thoughts between the fishing industry and the recreational anglers. 



I think that all recreational anglers and maybe even a few on the commercial side would agree that if a species is fished over TAC that it should be closed for all fishing. We all think that a better method of assessing stocks should be implemented. We all think that a better method of accounting for catch needs to be in place. If those two things can be achieved with fairly good accuracy, then the council will know what's being caught and how to set seasons and bag limits. After that I guess the discussion will be who gets to catch how much. Only time will tell and we just have to wait and see.



Kim


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## Gary S. Colecchio (Nov 5, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/19/2009)*Captain Gary, what you say sounds pretty good today but what will you be saying in five or ten years?


I've been saying it for 15 years, and I haven't had any reason to change my opinion yet.



> Right now the charter fleet and recreational anglers are in direct competition for limited fisheries resources. Recreational anglers do it for fun and the charter fleet "sells fishing" as their means of earning a living. At some point it seems you will have to choose to have fun or make money and you have already said that you can't do both.


I just don't see that there is any competion. Charterboat operators ARE recreational fishermen. I operate uinder the same regulation as everyone else. I just take people out who don't have boats or don't know the area. In fact I teach them what I know so they can do it themselves.

I don't know what I'll think tomorrow. But the only thing that I can tell you is that I will think and act consistantly and in the best interests of recreational fishermen if I get that seat.

I really don't want it to tell you the truth. I wish I could just fish and not pay attention to this nonsense. But watching what has been going on the past few years I don't think that I have a choice but pursue that seat and work for change.If there was someone else who I could put my faith in, I'd support them.

Right now I'm in the game. We need only one more seat to level the field. I think that I'm a pretty good choice.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Captain Gary I hope you do as you say, because that will make you the exception to the norm on people that get seats on the council. We really do need to get some folks on the council that will enact means that will account for what's out there for our fisheries and to regulate it as a sustainable resource for all concerned. Virtually everyone on the council at this time has pushed for the agenda of everyone but the recreational anglers. I wish you well and I'm hoping for the best but I'm donating what I can spare to the FRA to support the battle for the rights of recreational anglers in America.



Kim


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## Getsome (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/16/2009)*I for one support the combining of the charter fleet with commercial boats. This way the fishing industry is combined and can fish 12 months a year. I also support that the combined charter and commercial fishing industry get 51% of the TAC and they can split that amongst themselves as they see fit. I totally oppose any reduction of the 49% TAC allotted to recreational anglers. It's bad enough that a public resource is given to private industry for their profit and we should not allow any more of that resource to be taken from the American recreational anglers.
> 
> 
> 
> Kim




Wow, great post Kim, I think the key word you used is PUBLIC RESOURCE, It chaps me that politicians sell all of us and our resources out for profits. I do agree that people should have a right to make a living on public resources but never more than half!


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## lbhuntley (Oct 6, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Kim, help me understand why you believe 49% of the red snapper allocation should belong to non charter recreational fishermen? Approximately 12% of the population living ingulf statesfishfor snapper, and thisisprobably high. That means 88% either depend on charter or commercial to gain accessto their share.Youare on to something, anadjustment tothe allocation may be appropriate.


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

We don't want to send OUR snapper out of state or country. If they want to eat snapper come on down to the south and eat it or catch it! Make it a game fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

i myself do not care about the federal waters...i wish they would close it down for 2 years!!!!!



what i do care about and that is the state waters...we have plenty of red snapper in state waters and the state of florida should do as texas and let us have our snapper!



like litecatch said if those in New York city want florida red snapper come down here and catch them! When they open up the federal waters then let those commercial guys harvest red snapper for shipping to New York!



LBHuntley...your days are numbered. Enjoy the extra money you are making it soon will be gone! When it is all gone do not come to us recreational fishermen to help you out! Remember your statement " I earned my 500lbs of red snapper"...well you will find another way to earn that lost money as well! Maybe you can sell your boat and tackle!


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

It's bad enough that the Department of Commerce gave 51% of the TAC of all fisheries to private industry, that 51% TAC belongs to the American public. That left 49% for the recreational sector and I hope to high heaven that it isn't reduced for the recreational anglers to increase some other sectors profits. The charter fleet should be combined with the commercial fleet since they both are the fishing industry that the politicians are always moaning about. The fishing industry already has 51% of the TAC by law and I doubt that it will ever be changed. You guys can divide it amongst yourselves and leave the recreational TAC for the recreational anglers. The reason that the recreational TAC is supposedly 1 - 2 million pounds over fished may be due to the pressure put on by the charter fleet. The recreational TAC is supposed to be for recreation, not selling recreation, not selling fishing, just plain old fishing for fun for the American public. 



You just wait until this coming years 30 day ERS comes into season, we'll have the charter fleet doing three short trips a day hammering the fish. Most of the Destin boats did that this past year with two trips a day and it won't change. We'll see posts about aggressive boat handling towards the small boats out there just like last year. I wish I had the magic answer for all this mess.



Kim


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## lbhuntley (Oct 6, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Kim, the allocation for red snapper is 51% commercial/49% recreational.Amberjack is 27% commercial/73% recreational.Allocations vary based oncatch history(red snapperpercentages are currently under review by Gulf Council and NMFS).

LITECATCH, only16% of Floridianshave salt water licenses (end of 08). What about the rest of Florida's population? I bet patrons oflocal sea food restaurants and fish markets would take exception to your recommendations.Let's not require non-fishing locals to eat "cake" (I mean imported basa). If scientifically managed, fresh Gulf of Mexicored snapper will continue to be available for all Americans, and theannual catch limitswill increase.

Wes, Isuspect if federal waters were closed for 2 years,the vast majority of all fishermen's days would be numbered.Do you havereef permits allowing you tocharter in federal waters?


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *lbhuntley (11/20/2009)*
> 
> LITECATCH, only16% of Floridianshave salt water licenses (end of 08). What about the rest of Florida's population? I bet patrons oflocal sea food restaurants and fish markets would take exception to your recommendations.Let's not require non-fishing locals to eat "cake" (I mean imported basa). If scientifically managed, fresh Gulf of Mexicored snapper will continue to be available for all Americans, and theannual catch limitswill increase.


You can not tell me that the 100% of the remaining 84% eat or want to eat red snapper. That is just crazy and you using the numbers the way you want in order to sound benificial to yourself. There are people in Florida that have not even heard of red snapper much less care to eat it. You like to tout that 16% number like it actually means something. It means nothing. I can take anynumber and use it to my advantage as well. How about this.

Florida's population of 65 and older is 17.5% (latest census). So they do not need a license. Florida's population of 16 and under is 21%. (got to count the newborns too) So they do not need a license.

So let's add that up. 16% have license and 38.5 do not need a license. So that is 54.5% that can and do fish. Since you can say that 100% of that 84% eat fish. I can say that 100% of that 54.5% actually fish for red snapper. Not your 16% number.

So in reality 54.5% of Florida's population can and do fish legally for red snapper. So we should be getting 54.5% of the complete TAC right??????

The whole argument of "we provide for those that can not access it" is complete BS.


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

if the commercial guys started raising their share in pens, they would not need to catch WILD fish,then there would be plenty of fish for everyone and the commercial guys would probably even make more money. this is your future so why dont you start now.

get ahead of the game and make more money, whats wrong with that?


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

More important than who should be where and who can catch what is that if we don't get a grip on this now, in the future when the world population is two or three times what it is now. Imagine what that would have on our fishery resources if we don't get this problem resolved to maintain a sustainable fishery. If we could get all the BS laid to rest, we could concentrate our efforts and money on ways to provide habitat and expand nurseries to ensure increasing populations of our fishery.



Kim


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

telum pisces....i like when LBHUNTLEY says what about "their shares of red snapper"...you know the ones that do not fish and need to buy their share from LBHUNTLEY...so if Mr Doe who does not fish but lets say he can buy 1000lbs of red snapper but i can not buy 1000lbs of red snapper so i go to catch for myself my 2 red snapper a day which would be 100 days of fishing...it seems he is getting more of the shares of red snapper then I. LBHUNTLEY is this what you mean by their shares? 



As for a reef permit...HELL NO i do not have one...will not get one and do not want one!!!!!!

Why? Plenty of red snapper in 9 miles or less of water.



As for federal closure...that is what i am pushing for!!!!! Once that happens most of the SOS guys will be out of business! You will not sell a red snapper for at least a two years and with all your expenses of boat and tackle it will take you another two years to catch up. You LBHUNTLEY will have cried to the federal government and thrown in your towel!



As soon as the feds close federal waters we recreational fishermen will then have our FWC realize the grave error they made supporting crab tree and well open our waters back up to recreational fishing!



Like I said YOU LBHUNTLEY your days are numbered! So go out and catch your 500lb quota of red snapper that "YOU EARNED"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Oh and if you think there is a red snapper problem...why not cut you quota in half...think how many red snapper that could produce in a couple of years. Oh wait YOU EARNED THAT 500lbs of red snapper! So we recreational fishermen who bring more dollars into our communities than YOU do will just sit at home and not FISH!



You should do your research on where most of the Red Snapper that is caught in gulf waters actually go...the largest percentage goes to NEW YORK CITY!


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Speaking of money brought in, Larry is one of the CHEAPEST people i have ever met!! Sorry Larry, i had to throw you under the bus!! Love ya buddy!!


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Wes, 

I must throw in some points here. We charter captains do take people who for one reason or another (like blind Robby) do not or choose not to buy a boat or do not wish to fish aboard a small boat that leaves you feeling like you did 10 rounds with mike tyson. The problem we have is that in our governing body (NMFS) they have shouted the word "OVERFISHING" so many times that even some of US have believed the lie. One look at a public reef 3 miles from Pensacola Beach would tell you that there are more snapper in the GOM than anyone can imagine. 

We also have a counting problem. The FWC people who monitor us (charter/recreational) are working with a set of parameters that are at best problematic. For instance, if you load your boat up, be it a party barge, or skiff, or 21' Cape Horn fishing monster, head to the ramp and launch.... it doesnt matter if you even have a rod and reel on the boat. When FWC counts the trailors at the ramp, they access the size of the boat and potential passenger load and strike 2, 4,6, or 8 red snappers off the rec TAC. It doesnt matter if you were water skiing or went to the cove to watch an air show or that you are simply riding around taking in the sights. 

The FWC calls all of the charter boats and asks how many trips for a certain week, how many anglers on board, and time with gear in the water. And the silliest question... did you fish the majority of the trip in federal or state waters. So, what if a charter boat loads up a group of special olympians for some entertainment on the water and the group of 10 folks catch 4 snappers and are happy as hell. The fish counters dont even care that the anglers only caught 4 snaps, they assume that we caught 20 and count it as such. Also, when all of our boats were on drydock for annual CG exams or for protection from hurricanes, it is presumed that we are fishing and the # of snappers is calculated that we "may" have taken. 

All of these counting methods are stacked against the recreational fishermen. The SOS guys want to be governed under the same rules as the commercial guys. That includes the installation of a VMS... for you guys not in the know, this is essentially a 24/7 epirb that lets NMFS know where your boat is ALL the time. Even though I have nothing to hide, I do have a right to as much privacy as the person with the 21' Cape Horn. I gave up my commercial fishing permits due to this rule so Im damn sure not signing on with SOS. Icould rave on about the un-fairness of NMFS on both the comm. side and the rec side, but I will spare you on that. 

My final point is this... we let this bunch on namby pamby doomsday pencil pushers dictate their agenda to us. We need to take it back via Federal Court. We need to sue the NMFS in a class action suit and demand they enlighten us on their shady accounting methods and just how they "know" the fisherey is being over-fished. Im my humble opinion, the NMFS will not be happy until thousands of starved red snappers wash up on our beaches and the vermillion, lane, trigger, and grouper are choked out of existance by the voracious feeding habits of the red snapper. 

Until we unite... we will continue to be defeated by idiot mis-management.


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## Hook (Oct 2, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

To be fair; have Commercial boats and Charter boats with commercial licenses in one category and then the Charter that do not have fish sale licenses with the recreational boaters. Seems like a better marriage and theallocation would be closer.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Cisco,

I fail to see how this arrangement would benifit either industry. All the charter boats with commercial licenses (and I know of several... I was one) must comply with the rules that exist. First, they must not sell fish caught on a charter no matter who is onboard. The crew may consist of only those hired for the commercialtrip. These captains are just wearing two hats so to speak and the ones I know are honest hard working fishermen. The amount of ignorace in this issue is staggering. Our collective arguement is not with commercial fishermen, its with the NMFS and crab tree and the TAC. The feds have created a problem that will be hard for them to talk themselves out of. One other point jumps out at me and many others is that there are many fewer anglers on the gulf than there were 6 or 7 years ago. People have reacted to the cutbacks on the limits and weighed the "not enough sugar for a dime" factor figuringin fuel prices and are opting to stay at home of limit their trips to occaisions when the whole family can go so they can get a few for the freezer. One telling factor that would shed some light on the subject would be to check statewide boat registrations for boats larger than 16 or 18' made by noted offshore boat names such as wellcraft/proline/whaler/seacraft etc. and cutting out areas such as the keys northward to the big bend area where they catch very very few snappers and comparing that data combined with saltwater fishing licenses in the same manner. All of us who fish within 30 miles of Pensacola know there is no threat to this fish and we don't take kindly to people sitting in fat high places dictating life-changing rules on all of us without solid proof.


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## Travis Gill (Oct 6, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I still dont see what bashing the commercial guys and trying to shut them down will do? The problem is with the people making the regulations not the commercail guys. Im sure we can agree they are not hurting the resource because obviuosly there are more snapper than we could deplete if we tried


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

burnt drag...sorry...there are to many charter captains that do not have "REEF PERMITS" and could care less about the federal waters...You see with a 2 fish bag limit it is less expensive to go on a private trip with an inshore offshore charter captain...catch your limit and then come back into inshore and catch plenty of other fish! So as you can see 9 miles is plenty for us!



Our customer basis is growing and growing everyday. More and more anglers see the need for an inshore/offshore charter. So our fight is with the state of florida! We and ALL recreational fishermen want to fish for snapper and we can do it right inside our nine miles!!!!



So i think the feds should close down snapper fishing in federal waters for at least 2 years. Then we will have plenty of snapper for ALL who are concern...while we wait for feds to open federal waters we will catch plenty of red snapper in state waters.



Now you charter boat captains that sold us out this past year...well i guess you will be in a pickle. Cause you would either have to give up your "FEDERAL REEF PERMIT" or just sit at the docks! Of course you made your bed so you would have to lay in it now.



As for the captain wears two hats...i liked to fell out of my seat on that on!!!!!! I know of 2 captains who during closed recreational snapper season takes the "PREFERRED CUSTOMERS" as commercial anglers. You see their boats are regigisterd commercial so any person on board is licensed to commercial harvest. Please do not come back with well there are laws to stop that...yes there is laws if you get caught. It would take somebody on the boat to turn the captain over to authorities...well that is why they only take their "PERFERRED CUSTOMERS"!!!!



One last thing burnt drag please reveal who you are so we can get a better picture of where you stand in this fight!



As you can see i am not afraid to show who i am just like capt eugene and lbhuntley i disagree with both of these men but they do not hide who they are so i have total respect for them as an adversary.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Guys just look at the history of the fishing industry. The longliners are virtually extinct today because of fishery closures. The shrimp boat fleet is the next dinosaur that's going to go lights out because they can't compete with the cheap imports. When they go the slaughter of juvenile fish will end and that will go a long ways in helping maintain a sustainable fishery because there will suddenly be lots more fish. A little while after that the charter boat fleet will rattle and shake and in the end, only the big charter boat companies will be what's left and they will be combined with the commercial fleet. If we assume that NOAA, GOMFC, Dept of Commerce, and all the other regional councils can figure out a means of coming close to assessing the fisheries stocks, they can then implement common sense regulation of season and bag limits. I'm already tired of waiting for all this to happen.



Kim


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

A little while after that the charter boat fleet will rattle and shake and in the end, only the big charter boat companies will be what's left and they will be combined with the commercial fleet. Kim[/quote]

The Charter boats that will survive is the ones that have there boats paid off and finances in order, and the ones that are corporated owned. There are more of each of these than you know. We are a pretty resilient group we are.


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## lbhuntley (Oct 6, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Wes, let's look at "only fishing state waters". Of the 189 public reefs (7/22/09) 20 are in state waters; they include the "not sooften fished" 3 barges, Liberty ship, Mass, Russian freighter, bridge rubble, Tex Edwards... Eleven percent of the public wrecks are located within 9 miles of our coast. Alabama's state waters extend 3 miles. Where do you think they are going to fish? So your recommendation is to concentrate all recreational and charter, without reef permits, within 9 miles of Florida's coast and there will be abundant snapper for everyone. If that isn't "faith based" I don't know what is. Effective management, based on science, will allow everyone to continue to fishthe EEZ,and we will eventuallysee the annual catch limits increased.

There are 6 approved landing sites for commercial fishermen in Pensacola and a Capt is required to report his landing site andtime. When aCapt is on a commercial trip he is limited to 3 crew. You are telling us that acharter/commercial Capt would jeopardize his permits by taking charter on a commercialtrip? Don't you think law enforcement is smart enough to ask members of a crew if they are charter or commercial fishing?If they are commercial fishing theCapt is required to transfer the fish to one of four,legal, local fishhouses. How many idiots do you think would purger themselves for a red snapper fishing trip? There are only 4 dealers in Pensacola that can legallybuy from the commercial fisherman.

LITECATCH, I'm not sure how you determined that I'm cheap. All I remember is towing you from west of Sherman Cove to Bayou Chico without charge, taking you on a commercial trip and giving you 50% of the profits, andproviding you 1000 or so commercial fishing spots. Tell me again why I'm cheap?


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *captwesrozier (11/21/2009)*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you Capt.Wes for the respect/adversarial comment!



With Respect



If the two guys you Know take more than the three Deckhands on a commercial trip they are breaking the law and you should report them!



If they only have two charter clients: "two of them and a deckhand" they are not Breaking the law even if they leave with the fish they are not breaking the law unless the fish are sold to them for more money.



if they are taking more than three you should at very least tell your friends to back off before they get caught.





*Last but not least I Believe the win win for all of us because I CARE if your business makes it or not.

*

*Push for a catch tag system for the private rec.*



Sincerely


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

This whole debacle is government stupidity wrapped up in greed and political ambition, delivered to the public on a stinking pile of freshly gathered guano......









The argument I hear from the commercial guys is that they are providing access to red snapper for all the other citizens of america that don't have the ability to go fishing for themselves.









My question is this: 

Can I get a piece of mount Rushmore sent to my house? I can not enjoy it because I am UNABLE to see it from my house.









Can they send me a piece of the Hoover dam? It is TOO FAR AWAY for me to enjoy it.









Can we pour concrete down Old Faithful and force it to erupt closer to my house? It is A REALLY LONG WAY OFF and I want to see it all the time.









Can I get some wild buffalo shipped to my house? I feel SOOOOOO disadvantaged in that I don't get to shoot and eat buffalo on a regular basis. I DEMAND my EQUAL ACCESS!









Can I go ahead and start drawing my social security now? That is just too long for me to wait for it, and it WON'T BE THERE WHEN I GET OLD ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!!!:banghead

To sum it all up: WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!










There is ABSOLUTELY no reason for the average citizen to be BARRED from a natural resource that exists locally. Especially notin the name of others who are less able to access the resource due to distance. I don't expect them to give up their right to their local resource for me. 

This is REAL SIMPLE. It is all about money. Amazingly enough, the amount of tax revenue created by recreational fishing is actually getting trumped by the deep pocket commercial fishing entities and the enviromental nutjobs at NMFS. Even though the tax revenue is more money in the end.....







NMFS


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Angus the answer to most all of that is NO!



I Can, I have,I will again build Artificial Reefs these are not Simply a Natural Resource 



*These fish WERE NOT HERE ON THE NORTHERN GULF OF MEXICO in abundance UNTILL THE COMMERCIAL/ CHARTER BOATS OF ALABAMA STARTED BUILDING THESE REEFS ALONG WITH the OIL RIGS. *



NEW MOTTO FOR YOU PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE US.You will have to watch "Little Nemo" look for the sea gulls.



The american rec fisherman says!

*MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,M,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,

MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,MINE,*



you can't have any.that is you all's attitude



We just want to stay in business.



*Push for a catch tag system for the private rec.*we will all be happy!


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

So, since I want some conch fritters, the puerto rico inhabitants should be banned from being able to catch conch, because that would detract from my ability to partake in a resource that is not local for me????? They should only be caught by commercial conch fishermen and shipped to "more deserving" citizens who live a long way off????

That is LUDICRIS!

But, it is what we are saying about the snapper. Lets stop all the locals from being able to fishfor local food. Lets just import everything... Sounds like a perfect cocktail for socialism. 

Step One: Make the people 100% dependent on the government. You can't grow/catch your own food!

Step Two: The government is the only "game in town".

Step 3: Nobody dares to criticize the government because they might go hungry.

Sounds an awful lot like North Korea to me.

And for the record, they are catching red snapper off of NAS pier. I don't know of any "reefs" there. A certain number of snapper existed before all these reefs were built. Also, how many tax dollars has been spent making public reefs?


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Who wants you Banned WHO not me or any one I know.



Angus YOU AND ALLOT OF OTHERS ARE LOST IN RHETORIC self made RHETORIC.



THE GOVERNMENT SUCKS at MANAGEMENT AND NEEDS HELP BUT THEY ARE THE LAW.



*We want all people to fish that want to fish but there needs to be a change in the way management is done NOT RUN PEOPLE OFF THE WATER SOS may not be the way but the people behind it Don't hate.

*

now refer to the first sentence of my signature.


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I am not saying you are personally pushing for closure, but by taking 51% of TAC, it makes the rec fishermen have to scratch around for scraps. I am saying that a Natural Resource should NEVER be sold to the highest bidder.

Either no snapper season or 1 fish per person for 30 days. I am not cranking up my boat and driving to the pass for 1 fish. Not going to happen!

I say that if I have to do without red snapper, then let EVERYONE ELSE BEAR THE SAME BURDEN! Close the season for 1 year or 2 years. The real sense of injustice is stemming from the fact that it is "business as usual" on the commercial boats.

How does it make ANY sense to allow commercial guys a chance to go out and catch snapper till the freeboard is dipping in the waves, but the local people can choose to catch 1 fish a day?????


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *angus_cow_doctor (11/21/2009)**I am not saying you are personally pushing for closure,* but by taking 51% of TAC, it makes the rec fishermen have to scratch around for scraps. I am saying that a Natural Resource should NEVER be sold to the highest bidder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Ok, here are some FACTS:

Commercial fishermen SELL their catch.

Commercial fishermen can keep 13 inch snapper. 16 inches for rec fishermen.

Commercial fishermen can fish YEAR AROUND, not just in the middle of july in the heat.

Commercial fishermen can catch as many snapper as they want to, up to their TAC.

Commercial fishermen will likely NOT be affected by the upcoming regulations. Business as usual.

Draw your own conclusions. I say it is a legitimate foul. A natural resource on the auction block.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

The Fact you miss is the fact that they are Accountable, and I want to be, And you and all rec's need to be Accountable.


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Let me get this straight.

Since we apparently suck at fish counting, there will be no fish for us unless we buy them from people good at counting fish.

So what I really need is an electronic fish counter......:takephoto

By that logic, there should be thousands of recreational fishermen written up by FWC for being over the bag limit every day of the season.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

angus I know this the data is bad one way or another Bad fish count, bad people count,bad denominators when averaging. business as usual has got us here, not new plans they are not in play.


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

LBHUNTLEY...who says it is in pensacola?



let me give you an example...i have mr red charter me out for the last 15 years red snapper fishing...he is loaded with money!



i say to mr red how about you and two of your buddies come help me catch 500lbs of red snapper this weekend. It is going to be and over night trip. now mr red is a really good angler and so is his 2 buddies.



now here is what you will do mr red...you will pay me $4000 (this is payed in advance) for giving you the opportunity to catch 500lbs of red snapper which i will sell to the fish house. if you are asked you tell them you are commercial fishing. now i will make sure you go home with plenty of red snapper meat for the freezer. YOU MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT TELL THEM you are on a charter. You are working for me!



IBHUNTLEY this is being done...money makes you do things you should not...this is why we have so many people in prisons today. The only way you get caught is if your customer turns you in...why would somebody want to turn somebody in for letting them catch 500lbs of snapper? 



Remember selective customers!!!!!!!! Not every customer gets this deal! If you do not think there are those in the commercial, charter and recreational user groups that break the law...well take off your blinders my friend!



now as far as reefs...there are plenty just 2 or three miles off the beaches loaded with snapper. Also you have robert turpin building a huge reef just a mile off the beach. when finished there he will be building a reef off the mass as well. Trust me when i say we do not need federal waters to catch red snapper...look at texas...365 days with a 4 fish limit.



As for Alabama...i do not live in Alabama so Alabama's problems are not mine. I will say this...i have fished some very nice red snapper spots 2 miles off the beach in Alabama. Those anglers over there are dropping reef material out everyday!



Yes lets close down the entire fed waters for two years NO COMMERCIAL, Charter or RECREATIONAL harvest of red snappers. Then after 2 years we should have plenty of fish would you not agree LBHUNTLEY? I mean you could not disagree with that statement.



You see we recreational anglers are fighting the wrong government...it should be the state of florida. Open back up the state waters and have the feds close down federal waters. Then the commercial and reef permit charter captains...well most will not make it. Then we can reallocate 50% for commercial/reef permit for hire and 50% for recreational...now i think that is a fair split of the resources!


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *captwesrozier (11/21/2009)*
> 
> 
> You see we recreational anglers are fighting the wrong government...it should be the state of florida.


I 100% agree Capt Wes....:clap


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Wes... my friend, 

That is such a reach on your scenario of charter/commercial/mr. red rant. I thought about that once or twice before I gave up my permits and I couldnt come up with a way to talk "mr. red" into baiting 16 - 20 hooks and still tip the "deckhand". LOL... Its obvious that you have a vested interest in the state waters. Im not sure how you come to the conclusion that the offshore charter boats sold you out. The NMFS is selling all of us out not just offshore operators. They are pushing their agenda and that is to limit public access to red snapper fishing. It does not matter how many snappers get eaten by flipper while we struggle to catch mingo or how many float off because some billybob snatched them up from 160'.... the NMFS doesnt care about the fish... its main objective is control. I saw several mature red snapper a few years back that had a stringy dark parasite in the roe sack. This should get the same reaction from a government biologist as swine flu did to the secretary of heath and human services. When I reported this.... they had never seen nor heard of it and really were not interested. Only after shaming them did they come up with this "venting" tool... their excuse was that we charter captains go through so many deckhands that it would not be prudant to train any in venting fish ...we have been venting snapper for years. As for me "showing" myself, I am Capt. James G. (Jim) Stone. www.aquaventurecharters.com I have been fishing the gulf since 1974. I got licensed in 1992 and have owned the "Emerald Coast" since 1996. Thats who I am. As for you Ms. Kim refer to Capt Fairly's post... we are a resilient bunch. The shrimpers demise came at the hands of a government that ALLOWED the imported seafood products on the US market coupled with 4 dollar a gallon diesel. BTW what Kim is your beef with charter boats? We just take people fishing that cant or dont choose to own a boat. We take people who visit this area and want to enjoy a day on the water. Most of us are good stewards of the resource and the environment. More than one of us has assisted the small boat fleet. We should not be at war with one another, but with the "rulers".


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## nextstep (Jun 27, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

rec fishing=







































commercial fishing=





































same as




























farming is the answer




























chartermen are guides for the hunter. we should stick together

commercial fishing should be done in pens.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Once the plan is implemented (and it will be)it will only buy the charter fleet a few years before they come after them again. Then they will be looking for allies to increase their numbers and funding again.

They are pushing for it.

http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=26374


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

capt james...now i have respect for you...i know you have a name...thank you!



Not a stretch at all seeing how it is being done. I am glad you did not pursue this practice but just the fact you thought about it says volume that some of your captain did too and have found away.



remember this when the commercial captain leaves port to catch his harvest of red snapper he does not have to bring back a certain amount of catch. If his "CREW" only can catch say 100lbs of snapper well so be it...remember captain is getting paid for taking crew out not to bring in a "BIG" harvest. If the harvest is "BIG" well more money in his pocket!



I will say to you as i have said to LBHUNTLEY take your blinders off before you run into the mass or rocks at the perdido pass...lol!



Oh there will be a few of you left which will make your business better but the large % of you offshore charter boats are going to fail. As will the commercial sector.



2 major factors...the 24' inshore/offshore boats...they can get their customers to fishing grounds a lot more faster...then they will only have 4 anglers so they can catch their limit quickly at one spot and bring them back in for specks flounder and redfish. The price will be less expensive than a party boat and they do not waste time "DRIVING" around in circles in the gulf. Not all charter boats do...i am sure you put your anglers on fish on one spot and keep them there until they have caught their limit or the fish bite stops.



on the commercial sector it will soon go to raising red snapper...the market size is a 1 to 2 lb fish...these snapper can be raised in hatcheries and sold to the world market.



So yes once again feds close down federal waters until the snapper are at the levels you need them to be. When that happens the state of florida will HAVE to open up state waters for their citizens to be able to fish...this is how you fight the federal government at the state level first. When all the states stop taking federal money and rebell against the federal government. then and only then does the federal government start to change.



Glad to have you aboard capt james!


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Wes, 

The charter boats that fail will be the ones who run people out to the spots, catch a limit of red snappers and come home before the 6 or 8 hours are up. Personally, I do not need to run 24 knots to catch fish.Although we havecaught plenty of big snapper, we seldom stop there. We target mingos and triggers when we cant catch any more snappers. One peak at the cleaning table would tell you that. Another point is that the failing charter operators are the ones who charge the least and think that because they have cash flow that they are making a profit. Ive seen 2 fail in the last few years. The next guy thats on the list is the captain that brings a smart-ass attitude to work everyday... the attitude rolls down the stairs and spreads like a stinky fart. As Ben or Butch or Eddie would also tell you, not having a well qualifed deckhand/mate on the deck will hurt as well. 

To Kim, we are not going away anytime soon.... so be prepared for more future dis-appointment. We have stood shoulder to shoulder in these NMFdisService meetings and voiced our opposition to the neutering of our industry and we are fighting back. One hipocracy we keep running into is that all this focus on the red snapper has drawn attention away from other species like trigger and grouper. The trigger population is way down in my observation and very little has been done about it. Until ALL of the recreational sector comes together and sues the NMFS and get them to answer some simple questions, (and the answers to these will sink their arguements)they will keep pushing until fishing rods are like murder weapons.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Burnt drag it's Mr by the way. My primary concerns are twofold. First is that the governing bodies have not lived up to their responsibilities to collect accurate data and enact regulations that would ensure a sustainable fishery. Second is that what the government takes away it does not give back! Looking towards the future it's pretty sure that the commercial and charter fleets will remain static in numbers. However each year as our population grows, so does the number of recreational anglers. In order to ensure that there is a recreational fishery for recreational anglers we can not allow the recreational TAC to be reduced any further to ensure that the recreational anglers have access to a marine resource owned by the American public.



If a profit is generated in the pursuit of a marine resource, it should be designated as a commercial entity and treated as such. Since a majority of the public marine resources have already been given to private interests for profit, we will never get that changed and I don't expect it to be either. What I would like to see is all the commercial interests combined under one authority. Then we will have commercial fishing and recreational fishing with no shades of gray in between. Call it selling fun, selling recreation, selling boat rides to fishing spots, entertainment or any other thing you can think up and it will still remain a commercial business.



Recreational anglers just need a fishing license, a baited rod and a place to fish, it also helps if there is something to catch. We are not required to have a business license, federal reef permits or any of the other things required by the commercial and charter fleets. We fish for fun not profit. I can pretty much guarantee that more local people go out fishing on their buddies boats than go out on charter boats. Most of their business is tourist oriented or the ERS and AJ closures wouldn't have been such a big deal for the Destin Fishing Rodeo. 



Get to the bottom line and what is really there? Recreational anglers just want to be able to catch fish and have fun. Commercial interests have to take out enough people to generate profits over and above constantly rising expenses. That means more and more customers and the only way to do that is to have them bring in a catch big enough to make the customers feel good about it and I'm sure the Captains and crew do some bragging around the docks. I would call that incentive enough to go out and slay the fish. That's a good enough reason for recreational anglers to be concerned.



I've lived on the water my whole life, East Coast, West Coast, Gulf Coast, Hawaii and Guam all of what we consider America. The one thing that has been consistent is the relationship between the recreational and commercial sectors. The recreational anglers provide a customer for profit base to the commercial side. I've been a customer myself a few times. Other than that there hasn't been a lot of co-operation unless something was needed and can you name any one bit of legislation or regulation that the commercial/charter fleets proposed, supported, lobbied for that was for the specific benefit of Joe Public the American recreational angler?? None what so ever.



From Orange Beach to Panama City I have watched the same scenario time after time. After the charter I've seen people give their catch to the crew, give it away to people in the parking lot and even throw it in trash cans. That's not exactly a procedure that you would find in any book about conservation of marine resources. I have never heard of a charter captain telling the customers before the fishing started that if they didn't want to take any of the catch home that they could practice catch and release. That sure wouldn't look good at the fish cleaning station where pics are taken with the big catches having the boat name and phone number highly visible.



I do not begrudge you the right to try and make a living at your chosen profession, I do object that you want to do it at the expense of the American Public by taking natural marine resources allotted for the public for private industry.



Kim


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## why1504 (Jul 10, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Let me clear something up here. This discussion is not about species pounds, bag limits, or fish length.



This discussion is about money and jobs. If you think for one minute a politician (and his bureaucrats) gives a rip about some fish you are sadly mistaken.



Commercial Fishing Industry - The boat owners, deck hands, captains, fish processors, resellers, fish mongers, etc. Jobs, political contributions, etc. and when John Q Public in Drinkwater Kansas complains about his red snapper prices he gets heard.



Charter Boat Industry - Boat Owners, Deck hands, captains, etc. Think about the power of say 200 charter boats ponying up $2,000 each for campaign contributions. Real money.



Coastal recreational fishermen - no job impact. No organized lobby representing the average Joe. No real money. You also need to remember, this issue doesn't impact bass fishermen.



Not to be a smart A-- but do you get it now?



Until there is an organized lobby representing the coastal recreational fishing industry like the NRA we will wallow in the dredges of the Commercial boats and the charter boats.



I do believe that charter boats and recreational fishermen have convergent positions. But, they will be separate from the rest of us because that is how they make there living.



When 1,000,000 coastal recreational fishermen contribute an average of $100 each WE WOULD BE HEARD.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

If there were no recreational anglers along the coast how many tackle shops, bait shops and boat dealerships do you think would be along the coast?? Talk about a lot of jobs involved with recreational anglers and there you have it.



Kim


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## why1504 (Jul 10, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/22/2009)*If there were no recreational anglers along the coast how many tackle shops, bait shops and boat dealerships do you think would be along the coast?? Talk about a lot of jobs involved with recreational anglers and there you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> Kim




Oh, I agree. The difference is a lack of organization, collection of money, and speaking with one voice.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Last time I looked out on my back deck, there were about 19 recreational fishermen all doing a great job of catching fish. Each one is a taxpaying American Citizen and a member of the public. So, you are out of luck there. There are some great organizations such as the Pensacola Recreational Fishermans Assn. As a group though, we have failed to get a plan together to force the NMFS to reveal their numbers and how they come to be able to gain the knowledge of exactly what has been caught in the recreational sector and WHY they feel that RS are in peril. 

The charter captains I know would not permit customers to waste fish. Have any of you other posters seen any of this?

The only sharks we take are the ones the customer agrees to have cleaned before I'll consider ok ing a kill on. 

Kim... one question... what other problems do you have with charter boats? They have been around since the ..... long before early 1900s long before either of us were thought of. By the way, my state license is 800 bucks a year ...How much did yours cost? 

Our vacationing customers spend an average of 300 dollars per day while staying here. The hotels, restaurants, gas stations and many other businesses benifit from these guys. The local government makes out very well on the sales and bed taxes associated with these customers. Many of my customers are people who have tired of hauling anchors, conflicts at boat ramps, and the other huge costs of owning and maintaining boats. One guy told me he was spending 400 a month on a boat note, 250 for the gas each trip, 100 more on drinks ice food and bait... he said he could fish with me as much as he wanted and never get close to what he was spending on his boat. 

Sorry to step into this thing...but I saw too many things left un said.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

The problem with all this arguing is that not one among us has the "collective juice" to change anything about what NMFS is about to do. 

I would like to say that SoS charter supporters say that charter boat operators were the first ones to open up the recreationalred snapper fishery by providing access for recreational fisherman prior to the 1970's when rec fisherman started to get their own boats. 

That statement is complete and utter BS... 

My family members and many others were launching out of pensacola as recreational fisherman in their own boats to catch red snapper in the 1950's before the SoS plan originator was even wetting a line orborn. Not thatthat has anything to do with the current situation (as the indians were here first) other than it is amusing to hear all the new comers lay claim tored snapper fisheryrights and I just don't want any generationX or younger people fooled by that SOS rhetoric.

Finally the Gulf Council is getting ready to have another meeting to discuss IFQ's they are the ones that are worth arguing with if you can figure out how to get to them.

See meeting announcement and history of red snapper fishery provided below>

'*all issues related to the adoption of a reef fish limited access program for the commercial and recreational sectors.*

*In designing the program, consideration would be placed on the trading of catch shares between sectors."*<P class=ecxMsoNormal>

Mark W

<P class=ecxMsoNormal>*The Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council will convene its Ad Hoc Reef Fish Limited Access Privilege Program Advisory Panel in Tampa, Florida at the Gulf Council Offices, 2203 N. Lois Avenue, Suite 1100. The meeting will begin at 8:30 a.m. Monday, December 14, 2009 and conclude by 4:30 p.m.*<P class=ecxMsoNormal>*During its meeting, the Advisory Panel will discuss issues related to the design, adoption, implementation, and evaluation of a reef fish limited access program for the commercial and recreational sectors. *<P class=ecxMsoNormal><P class=ecxMsoNormal>*Copies of the agenda and other related materials can be obtained by calling the Council office at 813-348-1630.*<P class=ecxMsoNormal><P class=ecxMsoNormal>*The Ad Hoc Reef Fish Limited Access Privilege Program Advisory Panel membership includes representatives from the commercial, for-hire charter/head boat, and recreational sectors, as well as representatives from non-governmental organizations. Members were appointed by the Council to assist the Council in designing and evaluating management measures that would consider all issues related to the adoption of a reef fish limited access program for the commercial and recreational sectors. In designing the program, consideration would be placed on the trading of catch shares between sectors.*<P class=ecxMsoNormal><P class=ecxMsoNormal>*Although other non-emergency issues not on the agenda may come before the Advisory Panel for discussion, in accordance with the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act, those issues may not be the subject of formal action during these meetings. Actions of the Advisory Panel will be restricted to those issues specifically identified in the agenda and any issues arising after publication of this notice that require emergency action under Section 305(c) of the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act, provided the public has been notified of the intent to take action to address the emergency.*

Research Indicates Abundant Red Snapper Populations 

Findings by Dr. Bob Shipp contradict federal research calling for closures. 

Florida Sportsman has obtained an advance copy of Dr. Bob Shipp?s upcoming academic research paper on red snapper stocks in the Gulf of Mexico, the historic fishery there, and the current red snapper fishery, embroiled in conflict, controversy and attempts at conservation. Shipp, a well-known authority in the sportfishing world, is a professor at the Marine Sciences department of the University of South Alabama in Mobile, Alabama, and currently, the vice-chair of the Gulf of Mexico Fisheries Management Council. His paper, which has been peer-reviewed and will be published in an upcoming issue of the Reviews of Fisheries Science, a joint publication of Sea Grant and Texas A & M University, presents a succinct historical analysis of red snapper populations in the Gulf and the fisheries for them over the last one hundred and fifty years. Significantly, it also makes a compelling case for the importance of artificial reef habitat to sustain and in fact develop red snapper stocks. 

One noteworthy consequence of Dr. Shipp?s research may be to encourage fisheries management officials to revise their statistical models to include the element of habitat as a factor in the computation of red snapper stocks. Currently, creation of habitat?namely the artificial reefs anglers have been building off Alabama for the last fifty years, and more recently off Florida and other Gulf states?has not been factored into the assessment of red snapper populations. That omission explains many red snapper anglers? complaints that NOAA does not count the snapper on artificial reefs, and it justifies their cries that red snapper fishing is better than ever in their regions, though regulations for both open seasons and bag limits are becoming increasingly restrictive. (See August FS for additional coverage.) 

Dr. Shipp?s groundbreaking work is presented below, with his permission. It will appear later this year in the Reviews of Fisheries Science along with another paper by Dr. Benny Galloway which, Dr. Shipp tells us, will also interest anglers and management officials concerned with the embattled red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico. 

Reviews in Fisheries Science is edited by Dr. Robert Stickney at the Sea Grant Program at Texas A&M University, 2700 Earl Rudder Freeway South, Suite 1800, College Station, Texas 77845.

A Perspective on the Importance of Artificial Habitat on the Management of Red Snapper in the Gulf of Mexico 

By, Robert L. Shipp, Department of Marine Sciences, University of South Alabama, Mobile, AL 36688, USA, and Stephen A. Bortone, Ph.D. , Minnesota Sea Grant College Program , 2305 East Fifth Street, Duluth, Minnesota 55812 USA

Abstract.-The Gulf of Mexico red snapper fishery has been declared as overfished, and overfishing is occurring. More stringent regulations, including reduced catch quotas and restrictions on the shrimp fishery to reduce bycatch of juvenile snappers are anticipated. However, with projected rebuilding, maximum sustainable yield (MSY) is estimated to be between 11 and 25 million lbs. This exceeds previously recorded annual yields from U.S. Gulf waters. The fishery began during the mid-nineteenth century off the northeastern Gulf coast with harvests of only about 2 million lbs. Even at this rate, the stocks were depleted rapidly, and the fleets moved further south and east to find new sources. Numerous exploratory cruises to the western Gulf in the late nineteenth century found minimal snapper populations, but high concentrations discovered off Vera Cruz, Mexico attracted fishers, and this area was the major source of snappers for more than a century. The deployment of petroleum structures in the mid-twentieth century in the western Gulf and thousands of artificial reefs in the northcentral Gulf have markedly increased red snapper habitat in those areas. Currently, snapper populations around artificial reefs in the northcentral and northwestern Gulf support the majority of the U.S. harvest. If habitat is limiting, the designations of "overfishing" and "overfished" may be misleading, and "unrealized harvest potential" may be a more accurate descriptor of the current status of the stock given the increased presence of additional habitat for red snapper. Decreases in these artificial structures (owing to natural degradation or removal) may decrease future harvest potential.

Red snapper (Lutjanus campechanus) stocks in the Gulf of Mexico (Gulf) have been declared overfished and overfishing is occurring (SEDAR7 2005). Currently, the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council (GMFMC) is in the thirteenth year of a 29-year rebuilding plan designed to remove both designations from this valuable resource. Although there are numerous regulations currently in place to aid in stock recovery, projections are that recovery by the target date of 2032 may not occur unless additional restrictions are imposed. An additional reduction in the Total Allowable Catch (TAC) is under consideration and will impact the directed red snapper fishery. The TAC for the years 2001-2006 was set at 9.12 million pounds (mp) about equally divided between recreational and commercial harvest. Additional reductions were imposed in 2007, reducing quotas to less than 6 million pounds. These have resulted in shorter seasons, smaller bag and trip limits, and other related actions. In addition, there is a high mortality of age 0 and 1 juvenile snapper caused by trawl bycatch in the Gulf penaeid shrimp fishery. Thus additional actions are under consideration to reduce bycatch, including areal and seasonal shrimp fishery closures (GMFMP 2006). These suggested actions are being contemplated under the assumption that the red snapper fishery is currently recruitment limited. 

Model projections of Maximum Sustainable Yield (MSY) for Gulf red snapper stocks are between 11.3 and 25.4 mp annually (SEDAR7 2005). These constitute a marked reduction in hypothetical MSY from previous annual assessments. In earlier assessments, some MSY projections ranged between 40 and 60 mp, and the 1999 stock assessment projected an MSY of 205 mp (GMFMC 2004). The current smaller estimates reflect a "more realistic" estimate of MSY, but they remain far in excess of the actual historical landings for red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico. Although data from early years of the fishery are few and often subjective, the highest landings before 1970 were approximately 9 mp and in most years, landings were about 5 mp. Landings from the eastern Gulf of Mexico averaged more than double those from the western Gulf until the late 1950s when landings from both regions were similar until the mid 1960s, from which time western Gulf landings began to exceed those from the eastern Gulf and continue to do so (SEDAR 2007-RW-4:11). 

This review briefly describes the history of the Gulf red snapper fishery and then describes the factors which may be responsible for the demographic changes in snapper stocks. These factors likely explain the geographic shift in catches from the eastern to the western Gulf. This has relevance to the management of the stock, and may result in changes in our understanding of the stock?s limiting factors and model projections of stock characteristics. 

History of the Snapper Fishery, the First Hundred Years

The Gulf of Mexico red snapper fishery began in the mid-nineteenth century off the Florida panhandle and Alabama coasts. Until the availability of affordable ice (around 1869; (Collins 1887; Bortone 1997 et al.)) the fishery was limited to small vessels from New England, known as "smacks" because their live wells created a smacking sound of water (but see Bortone 1997 et al., wherein the term may be a phonetic spelling of the Dutch name for these boats.) These vessels were limited to catches of 5,000 to 6,000 lbs. With the availability of ice, catches well in excess of 20,000 lbs became possible, as did longer voyages. The early history of the fishery, as well as the status of the fishery to the mid-twentieth century has been well documented by Camber (1955) and Bortone et al. (1997). 

A more detailed and revealing review of the early fishery was provided by Collins (1887) in a report to the U.S. Commission of Fish and Fisheries. He reported that the specific area between Mobile, Alabama and Ft. Walton (then Camp Walton), Florida constituted the origin of the fishery. He further noted that stock depletion was evident even in these early days of the fishery: 

"The character of the snapper grounds, so far as relates to abundance of fish on them, and, of course, their consequence importance, has changed very materially, it is said, within the past three or four years. 

"It is claimed that this change is still going on, and that localities that were remarkable for the abundance of fish on them only a year or two ago are now of comparatively little importance. The best evidence that can be adduced in support of this theory is the fact that the vessels are continually obliged to extend further off in order to meet with success, and at present we are told that it would be of little use to attempt to catch fish on grounds where they could be taken in great numbers in the early days of the business"(Collins 1887: 281). 

Collins (1887) also mentioned that total annual catches were about 2 mp. 

Collins (1887) alludes to rumors about snapper stocks off Campeche and Vera Cruz, Mexico but this major source of red snapper was unknown at this time. However, exploratory voyages were being made in search of new red snapper grounds. Particularly the western Gulf received much exploratory effort in the 1880s: 

"It may not be out of place to say that quite extended researches have been made west of the Mississippi in search of snapper banks, the demand for fish in the Galveston and New Orleans markets, and the consequent high price often being paid, no doubt, an inducement toward making these investigations. As early as the fall of 1880, two smacks from Noank Conn., which were fishing in the Gulf, made a cruise off Galveston in search of fishing grounds, but found no bottom suitable for red snappers to live on. Mr. Sewell C. Cobb also tells us that he spent the entire month of July, in 1883, seeking for red snappers, and sounding along the coast, from the southwest pass of the Mississippi to a point off the center of Padre Island, Texas, a distance of about 450 miles. The bottom, over all this extent of ground, was mostly mud and broken shells, and totally devoid of any fish life, as far as he could tell. 

"In the summer of 1884 the Pensacola Ice Company sent another schooner off Galveston for red snappers, but the voyage was a failure, the vessel not getting enough fish to pay her provision bill" (Collins 1887:280). 

Collins (1887) also noted that the catches were dominated by relatively large fishes, often averaging ten pounds or more (Fig. 1)." 

Following the Collins (1887) review, additional reviews of the snapper fishery in the nineteenth century were provided by Smith (1895) and Warren (1898), both describing the large catches off Campeche. During the early part of the twentieth century, Jordan and Evermann (1923:410) described the snapper fishery as follows: "Its centre of abundance is in the Gulf of Mexico in rather deep water in the rocky banks off the west coast of Florida and the coasts of Campeche and Yucatan." Gowanloch (1933:193) described the location of the snapper fishery: "The center of this fishery lies east of Louisiana." But perhaps the most comprehensive review of the first century of the fishery was contributed by Camber (1955). While a detailed discussion of this work is beyond the scope of this paper, Camber?s summary of the fishery is extremely revealing. For example there are five references to the fishery off the west coast of Florida, seven to the fleet fishing off Campeche, and not a single reference to the north central Gulf west of Alabama and westward to Texas, despite the fact that much of the fleet claimed Mobile, Alabama, New Orleans, Louisiana, and Galveston, Texas as their home port. Camber does mention (Camber 1955:48) that "some of the larger vessels which normally fished Campeche occasionally also visited the ?Galveston Lumps?. However not many captains in Pensacola and Mobile were familiar with that poorly charted area and until depth recorders became available the number of trips made was small." 

Camber (1955) provided a figure of the areas fished by the snapper fleet during those first hundred years, and it includes an area from the mouth of the Mississippi River westward to an area south of Galveston, termed the "Western." However, he made sparse reference to this area, noting that it was "all points within 10 miles on both sides of the 100 fathom line, between latitude 29.20 and longitude 89.20 and 98.00" (Camber 1955: 13). In addition, the Galveston snapper fleet was described in 1939 as spending from 14 to 25 days at sea with boats that "frequently sail to the Campeche shoals (HLPC 1939) although there was some hard bottom as close as 30 miles from shore." (Camber 1955). 

The importance of the Campeche fishing ground is reflected throughout the body of the Camber work, and summarized in his Table 16. Red snapper catches from Campeche comprised about 75% of the landings reported from Pensacola, and about 50% of the landings reported from the Florida West Coast. 

Thus it appears that the major red snapper fishing grounds from the industry?s inception in the mid-nineteenth century until the mid-twentieth century was off the west coast of Florida, the Florida Panhandle, and the Campeche grounds, with relatively few landings off Mississippi and westward and southward to the Texas-Mexico border. 

Demographic Changes in Snapper Stocks During the Last Fifty Years

The SEDAR7 (2005) red snapper stock assessment chronicled the historical landings of the U. S. red snapper harvest from U.S. Gulf waters from 1880 to 1970. These landings are in agreement with the above review of the fishery. From 1880 to about 1950, the harvest was principally from the eastern Gulf and Campeche. Total catch from these areas averaged about 3.5 mp annually, with a maximum annual catch of 6 mp around 1900. Catches during this period from the western Gulf were generally less than 1 mp. Red snapper catch changed radically in the 1950s, with the harvest from the western Gulf of Mexico equaling that from the eastern Gulf during this decade. By 1970, the red snapper catch from the western Gulf (about 5 mp) nearly doubled that from the eastern Gulf (Fig. 2). More recently, the red snapper catch from the western Gulf is currently estimated 6 to 7 times greater than the catch from the eastern Gulf in terms of virgin biomass (SEDAR 7-RW-4: 3

Interestingly, red snapper catches off Alabama have dominated the recreational harvest in the Gulf, even though this area represents less than 5% of the U.S. Gulf of Mexico continental shelf. The recent catch of red snapper off Alabama represents an estimated 40% of the total recreational catch from the Gulf of Mexico (Fig. 3) which is nearly equal to the total annual catch of red snapper from the Gulf in the 1880s. 

Habitat Changes Impacting Snapper Stocks During the Last Fifty Years

In 1947, "Block 32", southeast of the northeast coast of Texas brought in a gusher of oil, and the full-scale exploration for petroleum in the northwestern Gulf of Mexico had begun (Yergin 1991). Over the next several decades, more than 4,000 platforms were deployed in the relatively shallow shelf area of the region, markedly transforming the available habitat in the Gulf (Fig. 4).Currently there are approximately 3,900 oil platforms still standing, with about an equal number (approx. 100) being constructed and decommissioned annually (R. Kasperzak, Louisiana. Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries, personal communication).Wilson et al. (2006) detailed the value of oil platforms as artificial reefs, concluding that they support fish densities 10 to 1000 times that of adjacent sand and mud bottom, and almost always exceed fish densities found at both adjacent artificial reefs and natural hard bottom. 

Off Alabama, an artificial reef program was initiated in 1953 when the Orange Beach Charter Boat Association began depositing reef materials off that State?s coast. In 1974, retired U.S. Navy ?liberty ships? were deployed at five locations in 24-28 m of water. In 1987, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers issued a general permit to the Alabama Department of Conservation for reef siting off the Alabama coast. This permit is still extant and covers more than 1,200 square miles (3108 square km) of continental shelf bottom in depths of approximately 20 to 90 m . Altogether, an estimated 20,000 artificial structures have been placed in this area (MRD 2006). Previous to this reef deployment activity, the permit area was primarily sandy mud with limited hard bottom, nearly all of which was of low relief and dominated by diminutive fish species, chiefly sparids, serranids, and pleuronectids of negligible economic value (Shipp 1999). 

Although the two habitat alterations described above are by far the most extensive in the Gulf of Mexico, supplementary additions of hard bottom through the permitted deployment of artificial reefs (including oil drilling platforms) have occurred in every Gulf state. While the fish demographic changes may vary, each state has expanded its artificial reef program in recent years, chiefly to enhance red snapper stocks (L. Simpson, Gulf States Marine Fisheries Commission, personal communication). 

Discussion

The debate regarding the status of red snapper stocks in the Gulf of Mexico is ongoing. Current models and assessments indicate these stocks in the Gulf are overfished and that overfishing is occurring (SEDAR7 2005). The assessment models are based on the premise that red snapper stocks are recruitment-limited, but there remains considerable uncertainty in the stock-recruit relationship. Of interest, the SEDAR7 (2005) report concludes that for more than a decade, recruitment levels have been far greater than would be expected from the estimated stock size. In fact, estimated recruitment since 1985 was, on average, higher than virgin recruitment despite the stock being estimated as highly depleted. 

The information presented above suggests that habitat may be an important factor regulating stock size. Evidence indicates that massive areas of the northern and northwestern Gulf of Mexico were essentially depauperate of snapper stocks for the first hundred years of the fishery. Subsequently, areas in the western Gulf have became the major source of red snapper, concurrent with the appearance of thousands of petroleum platforms and other artificial reef deployments. This information argues persuasively for a reevaluation of the importance of habitat as a limiting factor for red snapper. Similarly, addition of an extensive artificial reef network on the nearshore continental shelf off Alabama has transformed the area from a relatively unproductive area for red snapper to one of the most productive red snapper areas in the Gulf of Mexico. The hypothesis that red snapper are habitat limited appears reasonable, especially if the alternative is to accept the idea that a grossly-depleted stock is producing higher recruitment than the virgin stock. 

When one discusses these habitat modifications, the issue of attraction versus production is inevitably raised. One of us (RLS) discussed this issue at length (Shipp, 1999), and contended that, for the area off Alabama, an increase in total biomass was not what was relevant. Rather it was the transformation of the substratum from a predominantly sandy mud habitat to one having increased areas of hard bottom with high relief that relieved the "bottleneck" that had previously prevented red snapper from increasing in abundance. 

Osenberg et al. (2002) indicated that artificial reefs can offer some species an opportunity for expansion if the artificial reef provides a means for relief from a "bottleneck" on life history features. Bortone (in press) presented a model that explains the advantage that artificial reefs may have in providing both attraction and production benefits to fishes that comprise demersal fisheries like red snapper. Artificial reefs may attract fish but, in addition, they may also provide increased habitat that relieves a "bottleneck" in the life history that previously restricted population abundance. 

One may ask if it is simply a result of attraction, where are the snappers attracted from? There are no areas of the Gulf which have become less productive for red snapper in recent decades. And in fact, 1) recent landings data (1999-2002) from the Florida west coast (Fig. 3) when compared to landings data (1995-1999) provided by Schirripa and Legault (1999), 2) testimony by reputable commercial fishermen at GMFMC meetings (March, 2006), and 3) testimony by a NMFS scientist at the GMFMC meeting (November, 2006) using fishery independent methods all support the view that red snapper stocks in that area are increasing. In addition, mark-recapture data from recent studies off Alabama (Watterson et al. 1998, Patterson et al. 2001) demonstrated a prevalent west to east movement of red snappers from the Alabama area to the Florida panhandle and beyond. 

Further evidence for the habitat limitation hypothesis rather than purely attraction, was provided by Szedlmayer and Shipp (1994). They demonstrated a marked increase in abundance of early juvenile (age 0) red snapper within the Alabama artificial reef permit area following large-scale reef placement. Thus the increased population in this area was likely attributable to a habitat-related recruitment increase, and not a result of migration from other areas. 

One might also contend that during the early red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico, the technology to locate additional hard bottom and the unexploited stock was unavailable. Had such technology existed, and had additional habitat been located, the relatively small annual landings of around 2 m lbs at the fishery?s inception would not have depleted the entire stock. However, the recent tag-recapture studies cited above also demonstrate that red snapper stocks are redistributed during tropical cyclones. Data from 1872 to 1889 record landfall of eleven hurricanes between Gulfport and Pensacola (Dr. A. Williams, Department of Meteorology, University of South Alabama, personal communication). This is the precise area of the fishery?s origins. Thus, occurrences of these storms would have replenished red snapper to the few known hard bottom areas from the more extensive but uncharted surrounding areas, had they existed. 

Conclusions

The massive additions of artificial reef habitat preferred by red snapper during the last fifty years in the northcentral and northwestern Gulf of Mexico has corresponded with major shifts in harvest locations and areas of red snapper concentrations. This suggests that habitat was a factor that limited population abundance during the first one hundred years of the fishery. Current model projections of MSY at levels higher than have ever been achieved also suggest that increases in habitat have increased harvest potential. However, because current models are premised on a stock of red snapper that is recruitment limited, these stocks are considered "overfished and overfishing is occurring". Consideration of increased habitat would lead to a different conclusion (i.e., the stocks have an unrealized harvest potential). In addition, if the habitat limitation hypothesis is correct, it will be necessary to maintain, or even increase the amount of artificial habitat in the northern Gulf of Mexico to keep pace with fishing pressure. Programs such as the "rigs to reefs" efforts off Louisiana and Texas would have to be continued, as would the reef construction off Alabama.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/quotas/grouper_tilefish/grouper_tilefish_landings.htm



The commercial guys are supposed to have an accurate means of accounting for their catches, if that's the case and they are considered the bad guys by many, how come they couldn't fill all their quota's in 2008 and it looks like that for 2009 as well.



I know the commercial sector is the dollars and cents commercial sector of fishing. The above site gives the gutted weights of Grouper, Tilefish and Gray Triggerfish. Some of the catches were less than 50% of their TAC and you can bet that it wasn't because they weren't trying to catch them either. The reasons for this are pretty limited, 1- They commercial guys have become worse fishermen, 2- They are fishing in the wrong spots or 3- There are just less fish out there to catch. 



If the commercial guys can't catch their quota's on some reef fish it makes sense that the ones they can catch will be over fished and the data does show that to some extent although it doesn't appear to be gross. This all filters over to the recreational sector because we have to live with a season and bag limits. The other guys will fish 12 months a year and still get 51% of the TAC irregardless of what the total TAC is. 



This pits the charter fleet in direct competition with the recreational angler for the remaining recreational TAC. Just about all of us are avid anglers but do you really think that we fish as hard as the charter fleet?? I doubt it, most of us want to go out there with our friends, have a fun day on the water, try and catch some fish that will be used for food and have a few beers. How many recreational anglers actually go out there and limit out every time you go out to fish?? How many charter boats go out with a full load of customers go out and don't catch their limit?? Even if it means crowding out the little center console monkey boats off spots to do it (it happens every year multiple times by some captains with that kind of attitude). I've had charter boats get close enough for me to pee on their boat if I had a mind to but I have never had a recreational fisherman in a center council boat ever get that close to me. The Swoop I and Swoop II are the only charter boats that have ever come up on me while I was fishing a spot and called on the radio to ask if I minded sharing the spot with them. I don't know either of those Captains but they are the most polite charter guys I've come across in our area.



That's some food for thought here, check out some of these sites and if you can figure out some of the data stuff let the rest of us know about it.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/22/2009)*http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/quotas/grouper_tilefish/grouper_tilefish_landings.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Kim: They chose not to FILL THEIR QUOTA BECAUSE THEY DID NOT NEED TO. 



Mark: This SOS Guy did not say prior to the 70's I said prior to the 40's & 50's 

And that was a good read from Dr.Shipp Seams like I have said most of that Before just not as Eloquently and with so many words.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Captain Eugene, then why in the heck did they over fish Greater Amberhack and Tilefish by almost 10% each??? I guess that must have been because they wanted to.



Kim


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Kim (11/22/2009)*Captain Eugene, then why in the heck did they over fish Greater Amberhack and Tilefish by almost 10% each??? I guess that must have been because they wanted to.
> 
> 
> 
> Kim




My take on it is they have no IFQ on those fish and the Half million pound's of AJ's are for incidental take the overages are most likely from lack of reporting ( because they don't have to without IFQ's on those fish)they are just like rec fishermen in these species and reporting standards


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Capt E check out this site, it clearly shows what they were allowed and what was accounted for.



http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/quotas/grouper_tilefish/grouper_tilefish_landings.htm





Isn't it funny that last year the commercial sector over fished Greater Amberjack by almost 10%, now this year the fishery was closed to recreational anglers while the commercial guys are still fishing for them. What it looks like is that the recreational TAC can be used to take up the slack caused by commercial over fishing ( and I count the charter fleet as well even though their catch numbers aren't included).



Since the commercial sector didn't fill their quota's on grouper and triggerfish, lets just get it over with and combine the commercial and charter fleets. The charter guys can catch what the commercial guys don't to fill the quota (because they don't want to). Then providing that the combine fishing industry doesn't over fish the various species in the Gulf of Mexico and then there will be plenty of fish to go around for the recreational anglers. Some day our near sighted, greedy, shifty politicians will figure out that there are more votes with the recreational anglers who pumped almost six billion into the Florida local economies throughout the year. Recreational anglers spent over 18 billion dollars on boats last year as well for a total of about 24 billion into the Florida economy.



Commercial and charter fleets combined put barely over a billion into the local economies throughout the state. The state will eventually open their ears to the plight of the recreational anglers which will be about a year after we can't fish anymore and the state treasurer looks in the books and see that the sales tax of roughly 1.4 billion dollars isn't in the state's coffers anymore. I figure about that time we will get some positive responses. As a matter of fact according to NOAA's stats, the total sales tax generated by recreational anglers exceeded that which the fishing industry brought in gross.



Kim


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *capt.eugene (11/22/2009)*
> 
> 
> 
> My take on it is they have no IFQ on those fish and the Half million pound's of AJ's are for incidental take the overages are most likely from lack of reporting ( because they don't have to without IFQ's on those fish)they are just like rec fishermen in these species and reporting standards


I looked at the site and still say the above



You should lose the fantasy of joining the commercial and the recreation for hire.



I have seen you type this no less than twenty times good luck getting it threw NMFS.



Talk to your state waters they are not in my Site's it is the federal waters I am worried about.



*Again it is not the fish or the people Catching the fish that are the problem It is the management of the federal waters.*



*We need to prove that there is no fish problem. Very Simple there is no fish PROBLEM lets prove it.*


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

As much as I hate to say it, I believe we do have a fishing problem, specifically overfishing and I lay the blame for that at the doorstep of the commercial and charter boat fleets. By combining them they can be more closely monitored and regulated, With that I believe that the recreational anglers can spot checked more effectively for guestimating the recreational catch. Then the regulating councils can set the set the quota for the fishing industry and the recreational sector more effectively.



Kim


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Kim

Unfortunately giving a share of the current commercial sector reef fish TAC to the charter group is not even on NMFS agenda. What is on the agenda for further consideration is establishing a for hire sector with it's own reef fish TAC out of the current recreational sector. 





Eugene I won't be happy when I am in the lottery with a million other gulf red snapper anglers to get my 2 snapper tags for the year. Guess I am outta luck.

Mark W


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Mark I understand! 



But I also do not believe it will be 2 fish per year!



I do believe it will be more like heres 4 tags when you buy your lic. request more when you use them.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I know that Mark and that's why I'm against any reduction in the recreational TAC because the recreational angler sector increases every year. Since 51 % has already been given to the commercial sector, it's my opinion that the entire commercial sector should be combined under that 51%. I wish there was some way that FRA could get a state by state petition going that all of us recreational anglers could sign to show our support for the recreational angler sector.



We need to split the commercial interests off the recreational sector and put them under the Dept of Commerce where they belong. We need to make sure that when they go, they don't take the recreational sector TAC with them, because what the government takes away, they never give back. However I'm hoping that our government isn't stupid enough to give 76% of public resources to private industry. It;s bad enough that they already gave away 51%.



Kim


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

MARK and every other rec fisherman!!!,

You won't be out of luck!!! :clap You will be able to pay Capt E and Capt Burnt $300 + dollars to get your Snapper. After all THEY DESERVE to make money off us recreational fisherman. They also DESERVE to make money off a national resource.

Remember, they are providing us a SERVICE!!!!!! :doh


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## why1504 (Jul 10, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Why are you arguing species and harvest numbers?



Here is how this works, a group gives campaign contributions to a politician, they then go see the politician, the politician asks "Is there any issue where I can help you?" The group says yes, they dance. Ultimately the group works with the politician's staffers and the group writes the regulations (not the staffer). The regulation becomes law This is passed down to the bureaucrats. These numbers are being manipulated by the commercial sector to their benefit.



In another life I walked the halls of congress and played lobbyist. I know this system. Recreational fishermen don't have a chance. 



If a congressman from Wisconsin sees a bill like this and the congressman from Florida says, this will make fish cheaper for your constituents how do you think he will vote?


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## Magic236 (Oct 1, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Guys you are making my point as you keep this thread alive. 2000 views and 90 repsonses, w/ many of the responses coming from justa handful. The regulations and limits are pitting recreational anglers against each other, and recreational anglers against the charter industry. We need to get involved and find viable solutions. I personally think we should be informed andidentifiy organizations thatprovide an effective voice. Fighting amongst ourselves does not work, when commercial fishing stacks boards and speaks w/ unified voices.


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

OMG Admiral Run Dover,

How can you say 300 dollars... you must have just spent your 420... BTW.. I get 110 dollars to take a tax paying citizen fishing. If they like the service that a 5th year deckhand provides, they are free to tip him. If you have a rotten time, you have me to blame. How couldyou lose other than if you lost the big fish pool. We also take a lot of navy guys that are here for 12 weeks or so and just want to enjoy a day on the gulf. Its not hard to understand thatthese deserving fellows cant afford a proline much less a johnboat. Not to mention all the returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan.... Have a nice day


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>http://saveoursector.com/WhatWeDo/SectorSeparation.aspx</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT></TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>A NEW APROACH TO OUR FUTURE </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Most of you know who I am, but those of you who don?t here is a short bio so maybe it will help you see where I am coming from. I have been fishing out if Destin, Fl as a full time charter and commercial fisherman since 1978. I started fishing in the GOM when I was 18, professionally at 21, I am now 51. I became a Captain in 1980 and bought my first boat in 1989 and my second boat in 1994. I owned 2 boats for 4 years and sold one to stay a one boat owner with my 57ft Miller the Back Down 2. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>I have charter fished each summer and commercial fished every winter since I became a professional fisherman. I hold a commercial reef, mackerel, and tuna permits. I am also a red snapper IFQ shareholder. My wife Pam and I have been married for 34years and raised 3 sons, 2 of which we put through college. All that I own, all the cost of raising our kids and every thing I?ve accomplished has been through being a full time fisherman.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>At this time in my life I have thought about just getting out and to hell with the regulations and rules that have slowly eroded our ability to make a living as a fisherman. In fact I still may get out and retire and do something else. But then I think about all the men and women that still want to pursue the dream of being producers in this country instead of consumers and produce fish for the general public. And I think about the friends and relationships that come with taking them fishing and the memories for them that last a lifetime. And when I think about that, it makes me realize that it is still important to remain in the fight to insure a future for those that wish to follow the same dream that I followed, and that was so good for me and my family. The thoughts and ideas I am about to convey may make some people angry, others to say I am on to something, and even others to say what a pipe dream, it can?t be done. So be it, but if nothing else, I hope it causes us to start to think in different way, ask new questions and start a dialog amongst those of us who have such a stake in this industry.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>IDENTIFY WHO WE ARE </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Up to now, I feel like we have had an identity crisis. Who are we and what do we represent in fisheries management? There have been basically four main user groups competing for their share of the Gulf?s resources. I want to apply most of my ideas to all the species of fish even though red snapper, grouper and Amberjack are the hot button items to us. You have the shrimpers, the commercial reef fisherman, charter for hire, and the private recreational fisherman. Unfortunately, for reasons that have always confused me, have thrown ourselves into the group that consistently has a hostile attitude and desire to put all professional fishermen ,whether they drag a net, use a long line or bandit , or get paid to take people fishing, to get them out of the Gulf of Mexico and re-allocate all the fisheries to them . This may be a harsh statement to make, but the reality of this is fact. Just read any saltwater fishing magazine, any issue of the year and read the editorials from the publishers and the response from their readers. Take all the organized associations for rec saltwater anglers, read their bylaws, read their correspondence and law suits, it is all anti-professional fisherman. In fact, through the last few years some of us and a select few spokespersons who are recognized by the NMFS and our industry as representatives of the charter for hire segment, have attacked and worked against other professional fishermen in an attempt to show the private recreational segment that we are on their side.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Folks it is paramount that we realize that we are Not! I repeat NOT recreational fishermen. Our customers are, WE ARE NOT. We are a separate user group that needs to come up with a definitive plan of our own that will benefit all the GOM fisheries and insure the future of our industry by getting our historical portion of said fisheries. For too long we have pitted ourselves against others who are more like us, than not. A man who gets up in the morning and goes to his boat or to his bosses boat and works to prepare to go out to sea to catch fish and his success at doing that will determine if the boat payment is met or the truck payment , electric bill or doctor bills are paid. He my friend is a professional fisherman, his family, his deckhands and their families are all like me and I should not pit myself against them.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>That said, does that mean that only one or two segments of these user groups should bear the brunt of restrictive fisheries management? I think not. If one segment of professional fishing by their technology or equipment causes undo harm or efficiency of over harvest then thru much debate and compromise they can bear their share of the burden to come up with a plan to benefit the resource and still stay in business. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>WE NEED A PLAN</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Our biggest problem, after we come to the realization of who we are, is what do we need to do? We have 3 big issues that need to be addressed first then take on some smaller issues after they are settled. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Number 1, we must become our own user group in our approach to all fisheries management. We, as that separate user group, need to work hard to make sure that we get a fair share of the historical portion of each resource. We are a limited entry group with permit requirements just like all the other commercial fishermen, the problem as stated before is we haven?t acted in that manner. We must come up with a plan that can demonstrate to the NMFS that will enhance the fisheries and give them the knowledge to enable them to make good decisions on how to do it. As a IFQ shareholder some of the things we worked for and got implemented would serve as a good model to use for the Charter For Hire user group.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Number 2, the NMFS is given the job to protect and restore the resources. They have had that enviable job caught in the middle of poor science and the different user groups. We as of late have become more hostile (due to the threats of survival) in the approach to fisheries management instead of helping them save the resource. If I am a NMFS councilman and I have to make a decision about a certain species and my science is suspect and the user groups motivations are suspect (profit and viability), then my only choice is to ere on the side of the fish. Put yourself in their shoes. We all agree the science up to now is poor at best and down right ludicrous at times. This is where we can make the most important impact in the shortest possible time. We must, hire an independent contractor to document all of the fish that we catch this year. It will take too long for the NMFS to get a for hire log book program going. In the mean time they have some critical decisions to make on a variety of issues that can further hinder our ability to stay in business and without solid concrete figures and documentation we are going to further lose. We can hire a noted university or outside contractor to gather the info. Eventually the NMFS can get it going, but for now we must take this upon ourselves. Perhaps we can get a federal or individual state grants to pay for it, but if need be we must pay for it ourselves.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Number 3, we must utilize the first 2 issues to come up with a plan that will benefit all For Hire fishermen in the entire GOM. That means we MUST begin to take a look at the big picture of fisheries management and not take the approach that most of us have in the past few years with how is it going to benefit me, instead of how will this benefit all of us. I realize that the GOM covers a lot of water, ports and states, and with that fact creates a lot of various issues. That means compromise by all of us at some point is going to be necessary . Without that attitude going into any of the various issues facing our industry we will certainly fail in our attempts to do battle against those that want us out of the picture. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Capt. Gary Jarvis</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>LETS GO FISHING</TT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## why1504 (Jul 10, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Captain Jarvis,



I appreciate your frankness and agree that the desires of the commercial fleet and the recreational fishermen desires can and should be congruent.



But, between the over zealous politicians and the commercial fishermen (and possibly the greenies) the recreational fishermen have gotten the short end of the stick.



As I have stated, this is a money - jobs issue but I must regress into the rules to provide evidence that recreational fishermen are the loosers in this debate.



If the GOM Red Snapper population is truly endangered, why is it available right now down at Joe Patti's? While at the same time if I go out and catch them all day long I must feed the porpoises with them or risk substantial fines?



This question reflects the real issues with regard to the regulations. Why was the regulation written this way? Simply because the commercial fleet's needs were listened to. The recreational fishermen did not have a seat at the table. The GOM Red Snapper did not have a seat at the table. If the rules were applied across all fishermen then the Snapper would have been the driver here.



I appreciate what you do. You work for a living. You should be able to earn.



Until the commercial fleet realizes that having the recreational angler aligned against them is not in their interest and begin protecting the rights of the recreational angler your profession will be at risk.



Consider:

Recreational Anglers and Environmentalist verses the commercial fleet



or



Recreational Anglers and Commercial Fishermen verses the Environmentalist



Don't kid yourselves that is the plan. The environmentalist realize if they get us divided they can end all of our rights. That is the end game here. Unfortunately if the commercial fleet doesn't begin to defend the recreational anglers rights the rec anglers will find themselves aligned with the environmentalist.



Now, is the money coming from the commercial fishing industry or the environmentalist? I don't think it matters.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Consider this alliance which is what we have now with the SOS plan:

Commercial / Charter "not for hire" / Environmental Groups vs Recreational

Mark W


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Burnt Drag (11/22/2009)*OMG Admiral Run Dover,
> 
> How can you say 300 dollars... you must have just spent your 420... BTW.. I get 110 dollars to take a tax paying citizen fishing. If they like the service that a 5th year deckhand provides, they are free to tip him. If you have a rotten time, you have me to blame. How couldyou lose other than if you lost the big fish pool. We also take a lot of navy guys that are here for 12 weeks or so and just want to enjoy a day on the gulf. Its not hard to understand thatthese deserving fellows cant afford a proline much less a johnboat. Not to mention all the returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan.... Have a nice day


Capt Burnt,

I'm not an Admiral. I <U>retired</U> as a Gunnery Sergeant. If you feel the need to address me by my former rank, just call me Gunny, no need for formalities.

I appreciate the fact that you have so much patriotism for the above metioned servicemen and women. They have or will sacrifice much for our freedoms. By the way, do you offer a specialrate for the military you mention?

As to your last sentence, as an Afghanistan and Iraq veteran andtaxpaying citizen, don't I deserve to, as a veteran or not,be able totake my 8 and 9yo out to enjoy a day of fishing on the Gulf,and keep a couple of Reef fish like Red Snapper and Amberjack?

Why do I have to pay to get on your boat to do that?


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## Gary S. Colecchio (Nov 5, 2009)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *markw4321 (11/23/2009)*<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>IDENTIFY WHO WE ARE</TT><TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Folks it is paramount that we realize that we are Not recreational fishermen! I repeat NOT.</TT></TT><TT> Our customers are, WE ARE NOT. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Capt. Gary Jarvis</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Then Captin Jarvis needs to do either of two things , understand that the there are only two sectors, by definition Commercial and Recreational and chose which regulations he wants to particpate under or turn in his recreational licenses.

There is no third option as there is no third sector. You either sell fish or your don't. As a charter operator , I don't. And I will not work under the assumption that I need to be regulated by the quantity of fish I sell.And Iwill not particpate in any recreational IFQ program as long as I fish under recreational licensure.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

I like the duplicity in Jarvis' letter where recreational anglers in the letter are all againstcharter boat operators yet recreational anglers are the SOS plan customer's.

The SOS plan is a sad situationin a number of ways. My understanding is that by design under SOS the charter boats would "own the fish" through an IFQ system and allow paying recreational anglerstheopportunity to catch and keep them.Though that same recreational angler would have to throw the snapper back he caught in a private boat if he caught it outside the 30 day recreational red snapper season we will get if we are lucky in the year 2010 and beyond.

It all makes perfect sense to me.:doh

Mark W


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Greetiings Gunny, you are not required to pay anything if you do not fish with me. One of my points is that I carry a lot of people, many military and many more veterens. We used to carry a group of dust-off pilots from the Vietnam war. They have a roving convention and I see them about every 3 years. These folks are here for a weekend.They dont have time to buy/rent a boat... get electronics... and go find fish they go with guys like me.... anyway, I read Capt Jarvis' post regarding the charter sector/ vs. rec. .... and I have to admit, he has some valid points about historical catches and commercial fishemen in general. From what I see in "this" economy, there has been a huge dip in the number of licensed recreational fishermen. I know people who use their boats strictly to go to ft mcrea or air shows because 2 snapper are not worth 100 dollars in fuel. And they dont want to go 18 miles out to catch mingo. Everybody is different though, some dont stop till they get to the Petronius I believe that until we find out exactly how many people are fishing for snappers/groupers/triggers/ajs... that we will never have congruity in the fisheries. 2 more cents. Take Care


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## Runned Over (Sep 6, 2008)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*



> *Burnt Drag (11/23/2009)*Greetiings Gunny, :clap you are not required to pay anything if you do not fish with me. :doh No kidding. One of my points is that I carry a lot of people, many military and many more veterens. We used to carry a group of dust-off pilots from the Vietnam war. They have a roving convention and I see them about every 3 years. These folks are here for a weekend. :clap :bowdown Do you offer a military/ veteran discount or do they pay as much as anybody else? They dont have time to buy/rent a boat... get electronics... and go find fish they go with guys like me.... I understand the charter business, Thanks, anyway, I read Capt Jarvis' post regarding the charter sector/ vs. rec. .... and I have to admit, he has some valid points about historical catches and commercial fishemen in general. From what I see in "this" economy, there has been a huge dip in the number of licensed recreational fishermen. I know people who use their boats strictly to go to ft mcrea or air shows because 2 snapper are not worth 100 dollars in fuel. And they dont want to go 18 miles out to catch mingo. Everybody is different though, some dont stop till they get to the Petronius I believe that until we find out exactly how many people are fishing for snappers/groupers/triggers/ajs... that we will never have congruity in the fisheries. 2 more cents. Take Care


Here is what you are missing. Those same vietnam veterans can come down here, at anytime of the year,catch and keep snappers/groupers/triggers/ajs... on a charter boat.

Whereas I, who pays additional taxes to this state for a boat, can only keep snappers/groupers/triggers/ajs... during the recreational season. The Charter customers are recreational fisherman who should have to abide by the same regs and seasonsas I do.


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## pappastratos (Oct 9, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Nextstep said :::

*"end commercial fishing of any fish that is deemed in danger of over fishing. this should be a no brainer."*



*NO WAY,,,, can not be that easy ! got to do a5 million dollar,3 year study on that solution. *


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## Hook (Oct 2, 2007)

*RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms*

Went fishing in the bay Sunday to get out of the house and had to leave 2 spots due to the Red Snapper . Just info.


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