# Stupid question



## aaronious45 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ive always been curious, but, why do our leo's use hp's but our military only use fmj's? I know the term "Geneva convention" comes in there somewhere...remember, I'm not a smart man.


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## armywags (Feb 19, 2012)

it's because the damn geneva conventions decided it is in human to use hollow points... according to them they cause too much damage and someone is less likely to survive a wound cause by hp vs fmj. but try telling that to hodge


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

It is also better to incapacitate / wound a military foe in large numbers, rather than kill - as it demoralizes fellow troops who have to take care of the wounded. For every foe wounded, it takes at least 2-3 fellow soldiers to care for and try to save him.

Just one reason I've heard given.

Our SpecOps folks, SEALS, Delta, etc. do break the convention and use JHPs as well as other nasty tools to take out the bad guys from time to time...


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## PompNewbie (Oct 1, 2007)

Enter the OTM ammo


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## aaronious45 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ah. Thanks. Makes perfect sense.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

Its actually the Hague Convention.

We really never ratified the section banning hollow points specifically, but we did ratify a section regarding "unnecessary suffering." You also have to remember that abiding by the treaty is only contingent on if the combatant we are engaging has ratified also. Seeing that the Taliban has ratified and doesn't care about the laws of war anyway, the special forces community has decided to use hollow points under the table.

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html


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## bigbulls (Mar 12, 2008)

Yeah, that "unnecessary suffering" garbage never made much sense to me. I think being shot by a FMJ projectile that's designed to "wound" instead of "kill" is far more inhumane than death. I always thought the point of shooting a person that is hell bent on killing you is to kill them first. A wounded soldier can still fire a weapon and kill.

This is much the reason you hear about the 9mm and 5.56 being ineffective against human targets. If you are stuck with FMJ you need to make a big hole. When used with proper projectiles, these two cartridges don't have such a bad reputation as ineffective man stoppers.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

These treaties were written in late 1800s when military technology was rapidly increasing at an alarming rate. Previously war war was far more gentile and simple. Tsar Nicholas II along with many others were just trying to keep the old order war and to avoid the inevitable change.


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## smithnsig (Mar 28, 2012)

Also, on the battlefield, FMJ is probably more effective, as the likely hood of enemy combatants having some sort of low level bodyarmor is likely. (enemy soldiers, not the insurgent types) By the time you have to shoot through an AK mag pack, and then the armor, a hollowpoint may have difficulty penetrating to a desired depth. 9mm 124 NATO has a low level armor piercing rating.

Rifle rounds that are properly weighted will tumble through, even if the range is such that the 5.56 won't fragment.


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## helo_hunter (Oct 2, 2007)

Back in the old old days, dum dums or wooden bullets were made and used to inflict horrible wounds. The Convention was put in place to avoid causing that type of suffering.


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## aaronious45 (Dec 15, 2011)

I just don't understand the whole "rules of war" idea...the enemy never follows rules, takes mercy on our pow's, or cares if our soldiers suffer...but I guess that's why we are better than them.


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

smithnsig said:


> .
> 
> Rifle rounds that are properly weighted will tumble through, even if the range is such that the 5.56 won't fragment.


The Soviet 5.45x39mm bullet was designed with an airspace in front of the lead or steel core - just to make it tumble upon impact...nasty round!

The ammo is cheap - thus why I like my AR with that upper installed.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

aaronious45 said:


> I just don't understand the whole "rules of war" idea...the enemy never follows rules, takes mercy on our pow's, or cares if our soldiers suffer...but I guess that's why we are better than them.


These treaties were drafted for wars against big superpowers, not puny nations or terror groups.

Still, these treaties were written by people who believed in an idealistic world and didn't understand the savagery and brutality of war.


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## bcp280z (Mar 29, 2011)

That's pretty cool Scuba, didn't think they had AR upper's in AK rounds.

Is the recoil/acc similar to 5.56?


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## TheCarver (May 5, 2011)

Partner that wasnt a stupid question,, It has never crossed my mind. I was taught to use what is avalable an make it count. Since joining PFF, Ive learned alot, Scubapro , Ive never put much thought into those od ball looking rounds ( 556x39 ) Figured them to be just anouther import rd for a sportsman to be differnt from the average at the range, Info on that rd is good to know for anyone intrested in stopping power in small arms, long gun ammo. This thread shows once again a simple question can make headway to good info on many firearms an ammo, Thanks gents, Hope others will share there input, ole Carver


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## TheCarver (May 5, 2011)

Opps 5.54x39 that is,


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## maxfold (Apr 19, 2008)

I read that homeland security put in a very large order for hollow point 40 cal .shouldnt they follow along with other branches of mil gov . maxfold


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

maxfold said:


> I read that homeland security put in a very large order for hollow point 40 cal .shouldnt they follow along with other branches of mil gov . maxfold


No, they fall more in line with Federal Law Enforcement (ICE, USCG, etc.)


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## scubapro (Nov 27, 2010)

bcp280z said:


> That's pretty cool Scuba, didn't think they had AR upper's in AK rounds.
> 
> Is the recoil/acc similar to 5.56?


Yes, you can get AR uppers in many chamberings - including 5.45x39 and 7.62x39. My personal favorite is 50 Beowulf...


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## Tiberius (Mar 18, 2012)

aaronious45 said:


> I just don't understand the whole "rules of war" idea...the enemy never follows rules, takes mercy on our pow's, or cares if our soldiers suffer...but I guess that's why we are better than them.


The rules of war are a joke. They can't be enforced unless the offending side loses (and even then it's spotty). 

"He who makes a sheep of himself will find a wolf to eat him." - Vilfredo Pareto


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

scubapro said:


> No, they fall more in line with Federal Law Enforcement (ICE, USCG, etc.)


If I recall DOD police and domestic operating military police can and do use hollow points.


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## smithnsig (Mar 28, 2012)

Gravity3694 said:


> If I recall DOD police and domestic operating military police can and do use hollow points.


Yes, they can. Spec Ops, Seals etc. can, and will use hollowpoints as the mission dictates.


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## Gravity3694 (May 10, 2011)

smithnsig said:


> Yes, they can. Spec Ops, Seals etc. can, and will use hollowpoints as the mission dictates.


Only reason why they legally can is because our current enemies in say Afganistan are not signatories of the hollow point ban of the Hague convention. If were were fighting say the French it would be a different story.


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