# Flounder Handleing



## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

*Flounder Handling*

What method do you prefer. Considering best food quality/Freezing long term.
For 20 plus years I have never given it much thought. Catch em slam em Ice em fillet and eat! My father inlaw who is really old school hardly ices them throws them into a cooler next to a frozen bottle then rolls everything in corn meal.

I know there is Japan's method kept alive then Ike Jime using a wire up the spinal cord. This seams a little extreme.

For the sake of argument I know I can just keep doing it the way I have for years.
While the Fish/food is edible, just looking to get maximum Taste, texture and preservation. 

They say the more the fish flops around and gets stressed the more acidic the taste as well as toughness. 

Also let them bleed out while heart is still pumping then place into iced cooler 
While not filleting too soon (Pre Rigor) it is said Fillets will Shrink /Curl more and have little flavor.
Filleted while in rigor mortise stage is not so good either having to break the Fillet membranes while straitening will make it lose moisture and not be as juicy when eating freezing or Cooking.

It is said best to wait until fish comes out of rigor for maximum taste and flesh quality which allows amino acids PH to stabilize into more ATP whatever that is which ads more of a sweet buttery flavor.

Oddly enough i can recall eating all phases whether by mishandling or just lucked into proper methods there may be something to it to achieve consistent results in food quality.

I always heard and thought Fish was Best Fresh right out of the water!
Seems this is not the case.... Same goes for Sushi /Sushi grade.

Apparently there is more of a science kinda like aged Beef.

So the plan is to stun while on the Gigg (Minimize flopping Stress) then Bleed Gut ice down and Fillet only after Rigor is gone. I'm guessing this will provide some grade A fillets.

Again I know we can all fill our gullet with anything. Just looking to improve the table fare.

Anyone have any other thoughts on this?


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## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

5. POSTMORTEM CHANGES IN FISH

5.1. Sensory changes 
5.2. Autolytic changes 
5.3. Bacteriological changes 
5.4. Lipid oxidation and hydrolysis

5.1 Sensory changes

Sensory changes are those perceived with the senses, i.e., appearance, odour, texture and taste.

Changes in raw fresh fish

The first sensory changes of fish during storage are concerned with appearance and texture. The characteristic taste of the species is normally developed the first couple of days during storage in ice.

The most dramatic change is onset of rigor mortis. Immediately after death the muscle is totally relaxed and the limp elastic texture usually persists for some hours, whereafter the muscle will contract. When it becomes hard and stiff the whole body becomes inflexible and the fish is in rigor mortis This condition usually lasts for a day or more and then rigor resolves. The resolution of rigor mortis makes the muscle relax again and it becomes limp, but no longer as elastic as before rigor. The rate in onset and resolution of rigor varies from species to species and is affected by temperature, handling, size and physical condition of the fish (Table 5.1).

The effect of temperature on rigor is not uniform. In the case of cod, high temperatures give a fast onset and a very strong rigor mortis. This should be avoided as strong rigor tensions may cause gaping, i.e., weakening of the connective tissue and rupture of the fillet.

It has generally been accepted that the onset and duration of rigor mortis are more rapid at high temperatures, but observations, especially on tropical fish show the opposite effect of temperature with regard to the onset of rigor. It is evident that in these species the onset of rigor is accelerated at 0°C compared to 10°C, which is in good correlation with a stimulation of biochemical changes at 0°C (Poulter et al., 1982; Iwamoto et al., 1987). However, an explanation for this has been suggested by Abe and Okuma (1991) who have shown that onset of rigor mortis in carp (Cyprinus carpio) depends on the difference in sea temperature and storage temperature. When the difference is large the time from death to onset of rigor is short and vice versa.

Rigor mortis starts immediately or shortly after death if the fish is starved and the glycogen reserves are depleted, or if the fish is stressed. The method used for stunning and killing the fish also influences the onset of rigor. Stunning and killing by hypothermia (the fish is killed in iced water) give the fastest onset of rigor, while a blow on the head gives a delay of up to 18 hours (Azam et al., 1990; Proctor et al., 1992).

*The technological significance of rigor mortis is of major importance when the fish is filleted before or in rigor. In rigor the fish body will be completely stiff; the filleting yield will be very poor, and rough handling can cause gaping. If the fillets are removed from the bone pre-rigor the muscle can contract freely and the fillets will shorten following the onset of rigor. Dark muscle may shrink up to 52 % and white muscle up to 15 % of the original length (Buttkus, 1963). If the fish is cooked pre-rigor the texture will be very soft and pasty. In contrast, the texture is tough but not dry when the fish is cooked in rigor. Post-rigor the flesh will become firm, succulent and elastic.
*
Table 5.1 Onset and duration of rigor mortis in various fish species

Species	Condition	Temperature °C	
Time from death to onset of rigor (hours)

Time from death to end of rigor (hours)

Redfish (Sebastes spp.)	Stressed	
0

22

120

Japanese flounder (Paralichthys olivaceus) 
0

3

>72


Whole fish and fillets frozen pre-rigor can give good products if they are carefully thawed at a low temperature in order to give rigor mortis time to pass while the muscle is still frozen.

The sensory evaluation of raw fish in markets and landing sites is done by assessing the appearance, texture and odour. The sensory attributes for fish are listed in Table 5.2. Most scoring systems are based upon changes taking place during storage in melting ice. It should be remembered that the characteristic changes vary depending on the storage method. The appearance of fish stored under chilled condition without ice does not change as much as for iced fish, but the fish spoil more rapidly and an evaluation of cooked flavour will be necessary. A knowledge of the time /temperature history of the fish should therefore be essential at landing.

The characteristic sensory changes in fish post mortem vary considerably depending on fish species and storage method. A general description has been provided by the EEC in the guidelines for quality assessment of fish as shown in Table 5.2. The suggested scale is numbered from 0 to 3, where 3 is the best quality.

The West European Fish Technologists' Association has compiled a multilingual glossary of odours and flavours which also can be very useful when looking for descriptive words for sensory evaluation of freshness of fish (Howgate et al., 1992 (Appendix C).

Changes in eating quality

If quality criteria of chilled fish during storing are needed, sensory assessment of the cooked fish can be conducted. Some of the attributes for cooked fish and shellfish are mentioned in Table 5.2. A characteristic pattern of the deterioration of fish stored in ice can be found and divided into the following four phases:

*Phase 1 The fish is very fresh and has a sweet, seaweedy and delicate taste. The taste can be very slightly metallic. In cod, haddock, whiting and flounder, the sweet taste is maximized 2-3 days after catching.*
Phase 2 There is a loss of the characteristic odour and taste. The flesh becomes neutral but has no off-flavours. The texture is still pleasant.
Phase 3 There is sign of spoilage and a range of volatile, unpleasant-smelling substances is produced depending on the fish species and type of spoilage (aerobic, anaerobic). One of the volatile compounds may be trimethylamine (TMA) derived from the bacterial reduction of trimethyl-aminoxide (TMAO). TMA has a very characteristic "fishy" smell. At the beginning of the phase the off-flavour may be slightly sour, fruity and slightly bitter, especially in fatty fish. During the later stages sickly sweet, cabbage-like, ammoniacal, sulphurous and rancid smells develop. The texture becomes either soft and watery or tough and dry.
Phase 4 The fish can be characterized as spoiled and putrid.
Table 5.2 Freshness ratings: Council Regulation (EEC) No. 103/76 OJ No. L20 (28 January 1976) (EEC, 1976) 

Criteria


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## bamafan611 (Mar 1, 2010)

*Never met a flounder that i didn't like*

I've eaten FRESH seafood for over 40 years and never put the thought into my fish that you guys do. I make sure they're iced and processed timely and if they're not dinner they are frozen in water till they become dinner. All I got to say about that.
bamafan611


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## woody (Oct 17, 2007)

So it sounds like the fish should be held in refrigeration until after rigor has subsided & then filleted & cooked, right?


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## sydbrn329 (Feb 4, 2009)

*Fish prep*

I was like the guy who never thought about it. Until...
I did not do reader h or anything like that. Happenstance,.. I made a discovery. 
I had gotten back from fishing in Jan. I didn't buy any ice before I left. I forgot to. Then I thought.. I'll just put some water in my bait bucket and throw fish in there if I catch any. Should be cold enough. 
So I damn forgot again on way home to get ice. I had bout 7 or 8 trout. Btwn 14 and 18 in. So I wrapped gutted them and wrapped them in a trash bag and put them in the fridge. 
Next day, I took them out and put the bag in ice chest. Drove over to fish cleaning table. 
Fed dogs and generally piddled for bout twenty min. 
Set to clean fish. Filleted them and put them in a plastic container with no water in it. 
Took inside. Washed. Fried. 
They were the BEST I had ever eaten. Flesh was so perfectly white. Perfect moisture. Perfect sweet taste. Better than ever. 
I have not attempted to duplicate because I figured I just did better cooking them than normal. But after reading the prep stuff, I may try to get close to what I did before. 
But unlike the guy who been fishing for 40 years and not ever worried about it,,.. I'm def not above learning something.


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## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

sydbrn329 said:


> I was like the guy who never thought about it. Until...
> I did not do reader h or anything like that. Happenstance,.. I made a discovery.
> I had gotten back from fishing in Jan. I didn't buy any ice before I left. I forgot to. Then I thought.. I'll just put some water in my bait bucket and throw fish in there if I catch any. Should be cold enough.
> So I damn forgot again on way home to get ice. I had bout 7 or 8 trout. Btwn 14 and 18 in. So I wrapped gutted them and wrapped them in a trash bag and put them in the fridge.
> ...


Good insight!!!
Oddly enough I went gigging thought I would get up early and fillet the fish before work however I didn't. Left them on ice and to top it off I ended up working late.They finally got cleaned 7:30-8 p also warm out due to summertime. Was a little skeptical....not wanting to eat bad fish wasn't so sure.... they had been ice a long time, but not gutted. Kept smelling them having no off odor as It turned out they had excellent robust taste and odor as they cooked. 
At the time I chalked it up to my cooking ability. I think the worst fish I've had was freshly caught and cleaned>They curled like a banana, shrunk and had little flavor. My understanding is this is best for saltwater fish instead of freshwater fish with the exception of Catfish.


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## bamafan611 (Mar 1, 2010)

*Fish processing*

OK sydbrn329
I never said that I was opposed to learning something* NEW*. I simply said that I had never given it the thought that the gentlemen above had. Makes sense to me and will use and appreciate the info. The only question I have is how someone that can't remember ice coming and going can use it?????
Just Curious:confused1:
bamafan611


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## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

*UMAMI the 5th basic Taste*

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami


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## sydbrn329 (Feb 4, 2009)

*??*



bamafan611 said:


> OK sydbrn329
> I never said that I was opposed to learning something* NEW*. I simply said that I had never given it the thought that the gentlemen above had. Makes sense to me and will use and appreciate the info. The only question I have is how someone that can't remember ice coming and going can use it?????
> 
> Just Curious:confused1:
> bamafan611


Wel.. Bamafan.. I guess I'm just weak minded.


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## badazzchef (Oct 1, 2007)

Ive kept fish with guts in a friedge for 4-5 days cleaned em and they were awesome. I think the main thing i do is use frozen water bottles and no ice or slush although at certain times I do that to. Either way minimizing your seasoning/preperation is more importnt to me than how much blood is pumped out before rigor mortis and what not...I actually prefer to clean my wish with the skin being dried out in the fridge....I have no probs cleaning them!


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## captainblack (Jul 4, 2010)

im far too buzzed, salty and sundried to put a long reply, but my way of handling most fish is put them on ice, WELL DRAINED ICE, preferably a cooler with a plug in the bottom, so as ice melts i can unplug and let melted water drain out, with flounder i like to leave them on the ice a few hours, but that can be taken care of by simply fishing a little longer lol

i fillet them, give them a really good rinse with cold water, if they were gigged i like to put a little salt in some ice water and place the fillets in that for 10 minutes or so (seems to me at least to get the thick blood where they were gigged completely out) 

they get the rinse then are patted down dry, vacuum sealed if going in the freezer, or cooked on the spot

as far as keeping them whole longer as in a fish market, i am not too sure, kind of interesting though but since i dont do any commercial fishing or work at a fish market, i really only deal with smaller amounts and treat it all about the same as above


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## Bobc5269 (Feb 10, 2011)

*Rigor*

Dammmmn! Y'all need a hobby that ain't so complicated. I'm in rigor just trying to decipher all that crap. Seems simple to me; stick 'em, clean 'em, eat 'em anytime you can..................


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## GIggaMon (Sep 29, 2010)

bamafan611 said:


> ok sydbrn329
> i never said that i was opposed to learning something* new*. I simply said that i had never given it the thought that the gentlemen above had. Makes sense to me and will use and appreciate the info. The only question i have is how someone that can't remember ice coming and going can use it?????
> Just curious:confused1:
> Bamafan611


 roll tide


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## sydbrn329 (Feb 4, 2009)

GIggaMon said:


> roll tide


You guys are funny. 
Guess Bama fan is kinda pissed cause I got the idea that his original post had a non sense type of feel to it. 
If I misunderstood the I apologize. 
But I guarantee that 9/10 people who read that are gonna get the impression that BamaFan thought it was much ado.. 
The inflection was such that I got that idea. 
If I was wrong then all apologies. 
Post script: 
I don't think I was wrong.


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## bamafan611 (Mar 1, 2010)

*No harm SYDBRN329*

Hope there are no hard feelings and I probably should not have jousted back. It is alot of information and alot to wade through that I honestly never thought about. I've allways been under the KEEP THEM COLD to keep them fresh or freeze. Everyone has their opinion and especially when it comes to fishing. We have to be able to agree to disagree and please excuse my sarcasm.
GOOD FISHING
bamafan611


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## sydbrn329 (Feb 4, 2009)

Well put, sir. 
No harm no foul. 
Hell, we pert near arguing bout what we both love to do. 
Guess cause the fish ain't been biting. 
They gonna pick up though after this front. 
I hope.


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## captainblack (Jul 4, 2010)

i did a lot of search about the ike jime method and how sushi grade is handled as far as how long it spends at what temperature and everything after reading this thread, i will now vouch for it completely, it felt a little strange waiting a couple days to eat what i caught from the other day... AMAZING. did it with a couple pompano i caught a few days ago, cutting the fillets was much easier, the flesh had way better quality, smelled almost sweet makes me want to just toss on some wasabi and eat it as sashimi. im gonna start putting effort into treating it like a science.


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## hotshot (Jun 5, 2009)

ok now this has me interested and seeking more advise from you guys.

I dont actually live near the beach, i just visit family in gulf shores alot. most of my fishing is for hybrid/stripe bass in central alabama. I could go right now and catch 1 fish, put him in the live well, and by the time i get home he will be very dead and very stiff. for this reason, i never keep over one or 2 (i love eating them but the wife wont eat any fish). I have had some co workers asking me to bring them some fish but ive told them "im not going to clean them for you" , now after reading this, im wondering if they will be ok left whole in a cooler with ice. im not talking long term, i would go like this afternoon and the fish would get cleaned by whoever probably the next afternoon. do yall think they would be ok to keep like that?


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## hjorgan (Sep 30, 2007)

*This is a great topic....*

I trout fish at night, and am too tired to deal with the fish until the next day, and it's usually after work. So these fish are on drained ice for up to 18 hours.

And, now that you mention it, seems like those have a better texture and flavor than the ones I fillet right away.

Similar note, there's no way restaurants and fish houses are getting their catch fresh from the water, rather they will be iced whole for several days.

Will do a trial run at the next opportunity!


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## hotshot (Jun 5, 2009)

im going tommorrow and im going to give it a try too. if i dont kill a co worker then i will know its good to go.


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## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

hotshot said:


> ok now this has me interested and seeking more advise from you guys.
> 
> I dont actually live near the beach, i just visit family in gulf shores alot. most of my fishing is for hybrid/stripe bass in central alabama. I could go right now and catch 1 fish, put him in the live well, and by the time i get home he will be very dead and very stiff. for this reason, i never keep over one or 2 (i love eating them but the wife wont eat any fish). I have had some co workers asking me to bring them some fish but ive told them "im not going to clean them for you" , now after reading this, im wondering if they will be ok left whole in a cooler with ice. im not talking long term, i would go like this afternoon and the fish would get cleaned by whoever probably the next afternoon. do yall think they would be ok to keep like that?



If you are talking fresh water stripers I would clean freshwater fish asap specks etc..... They will not produce the same effect. Like an oily saltwater fish.

I blackened a two day old Red! Man it was good!!! Seems the magic window for cleaning Flounder is 36-48 hrs from the water. 

Stunned and placed on Ice imed of coarse!!! unless they die from the Gigg first. Just don't let them flop around like I used to. Toooo much lactic acid build up in the meet making it bitter or not as sweet.


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## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

*Amen!!!*



jigmaster said:


> If you are talking fresh water stripers I would clean freshwater fish asap specks etc..... They will not produce the same effect. Like an oily saltwater fish.
> 
> I blackened a two day old Red! Man it was good!!! Seems the magic window for cleaning Flounder is 36-48 hrs from the water.
> 
> Stunned and placed on Ice imed of coarse!!! unless they die from the Gigg first. Just don't let them flop around like I used to. Toooo much lactic acid build up in the meet making it bitter or not as sweet.


http://youtu.be/J0rOoAkpFw4


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## Flounder Hounder (Nov 9, 2008)

How do you "stun" them to keep them from flopping in the cooler?


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## jigmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

*Get*



Flounder Hounder said:


> How do you "stun" them to keep them from flopping in the cooler?


You one of them stun gun's from the Flea market when he is flopping give the verbal command stop or i'll Taze you! Do it NOW!
Now lie on the deck of my boat and Keep your Fins where I can see them, advise you can chill in solitary until I get your partners in crime.
When you wake up the next day @ first appearance you can then decide his fate Broiled, Fried or Baked- let your wife be the Judge

Hell really.... they sell actual fish bats but I have been using my fire extinguisher. 

Just enough to deliver a stunning blow but not kill.

I have a leather/lead sap but haven't tried it.

I was going to try a sock filled with Quarters but I ended up using the change for Gas.


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## DMC (Nov 28, 2010)

*floundering*



bamafan611 said:


> I've eaten FRESH seafood for over 40 years and never put the thought into my fish that you guys do. I make sure they're iced and processed timely and if they're not dinner they are frozen in water till they become dinner. All I got to say about that.
> bamafan611


 

Hey I sent you a pm so if you don't answer them let me know.


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## Flounder Hounder (Nov 9, 2008)

Jigmaster,

Thanks I've always just let them flop. If bottom is firm enough I try to give an extra push to break the neck. Not so easy in the mud! Like the stun gun idea and sure haven't had enough quarters to do any damage. Got a short 2x2 though.


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## Fish-n-Fur (Apr 2, 2009)

Great tip, thanks. I too put fish on ice and clean the next day, d/t being to tired to mess with them the same day/night. I'm well rested the next day and clean/filet the fish that afternoon/evening, then either cook that night or place in a bowl covered w/ plastic wrap and cook the next day. They do taste better. I've also read that rinsing them off in salt water (rather than fresh) helps keep their natural taste better that using fresh water.


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