# Ethical Question



## Tippin Slow (Nov 21, 2007)

I have this friend you see. He told me he caught a OSBullRed on a plug with big trebles. He said the fish really swallowed the lure and the trebles were dug in pretty deep. He wrestled with getting the trebles dislodged, he said they were practically nailed in.He said the fish was bleeding pretty good during this procedure. Once free from the lure he tried revive the fish for release andit never showed any signs of life. What is the most ethical thing to do.

1. Toss the fish and watch it gobelly up?

2. Keep the fish and eat it?

I know neither answer is ideal, but whatis the most reasonable thing to do?


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## Stressless (Oct 2, 2007)

FIRST - It is illegal to target OS redfish with treble hooks. (Ethics) So start there, GoTo



SECOND - Don't use treble hooks for you own sake in case the fish is very alive and green (Smart)



THIRD - Legal and Ethics are NOT the same. Don't come on here after making a bad call, smacking your lips and assuaging your guilt by "consuming" the sorry fish. (Legal)



:doh

Stressless


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## FenderBender (Oct 2, 2007)

The ethical thing would be to keep the fish and eat it, I hate to see good meat wasted... but try explaining your "ethical" excuse to an FWC officer... :banghead:banghead sucks but you've got to let them float unless you want the ticket.


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## SCUBA Junkie (Oct 2, 2007)

The first rule of legal defense is; "If the facts are against you; argue the law and if the law is against you; argue the facts". That said; if you keep it, the law is against you and you risk a citation,and I doubt FWC is going to be swayed by an argument of the facts. Best bet; return the soul to the depths from which it came and cast your line for another.


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## FenderBender (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Stressless (1/7/2008)*FIRST - It is illegal to target OS redfish with treble hooks. (Ethics) So start there, GoTo
> 
> SECOND - Don't use treble hooks for you own sake in case the fish is very alive and green (Smart)
> 
> ...


I am sure the plug he is referring to is a Stretch 25 or 30... great plugs for catching grouper in the bay but unfortunately big bulls like'em too... I too personally do not like the big trebles on an otherwise great plug. My question is: Has anyone here sucessfully replaced the trebles with j-hooks on the Stretch? If you did, did it affect the way the lure ran?


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## Midnight Rider (Sep 30, 2007)

What does OS stand for???????????????:doh


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## FenderBender (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Midnight Rider (1/7/2008)*What does OS stand for???????????????:doh


Oversized. Out of slot, greater than 27" length.


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## Midnight Rider (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

So, when I say I'm trolling stretch's up and down the beach between say, November and February...I'm doing something illegal?


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## Coryphaena (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Wharf Rat (1/7/2008)*So, when I say I'm trolling stretch's up and down the beach between say, November and February...I'm doing something illegal?


http://myfwc.com/marine/Docs/Jan2008FlRecreationalSaltwaterRegsChart.pdf

Wayyyyyyy down at the bottom of the regs, the question of treble hooks is answered in small print.... they are not allowed for certain species when used with live or dead natural baits...... Stretches, plugs, etc aren't "natural" so unless you've tacked a cig or a shrimp on the hook, no worries!

As for ethics, trebles can be very hard on fish and if you're targeting fish intended for release, consider the least amount of damage to the fish in order to help them survive.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

*Ethics is not following the law. A good system of law does incorporate many ethical standards, but law can deviate from what is ethical. Keeping that in mind..the released fish that will die won't go wasted, and you won't get a citation either.*


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## deadly dick (Oct 31, 2007)

OS reds are illegal to keep, so do not keep them, the ethical thing to do is employee better releasing tactics if at all possible and do not put yourself in a situation where the red is dead. Catch it, take a picture and move on. If the hook will not come out, then leave it in, I've caught plenty of fish with old hooks in them, trust me they are a strong animal, I've seen and caught fish with half there body missing and still getting around ok. You figure A large red like that is also a very old fish. A breeder perhaps. Let it live and make more reds!


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## Wharf Rat (Sep 27, 2007)

> *deadly dick (1/8/2008)*OS reds are illegal to keep...




Not to start a pissing match, but that depends on what state you are in.


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## User1265 (Oct 15, 2007)

First let me say welcome to the forum Tippin Slow!!

Sometimes conclusions are jumped to and judgement is passed way too fast on here just like any where in life. Please don't let that run you off. This forum is full of very passionate people that love to fish and firmly believe in the conservation of our great sport. 

I am with Ron (Tuna Man) on this one. A dead fish never goes to waste. There are plenty of scavengers in and around our waters that will be fed if the fish dies. It is unfortunate and should be avoided whenever possible but things happen sometimes. Return the fish to the water and hope for the best. If I were your "friend" I would have cut the hook off and removed as much of it as I could and returned the fish to the water.


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## gator7_5 (Oct 4, 2007)

throw it back dead. You dont keep undersized snapper just because a porpoise will eat it. Crabs and little fish will munch on that thing for days. I't won't go to waste, and there are plenty of them.


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## John B. (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Tippin Slow (1/7/2008)*I have this friend you see. He told me he caught a OSBullRed on a plug with big trebles....


so YOU caught a redfish oke ... just kidding... the best thing would have been to leave it.... there are waaayyyy more bull reds than people realize.... sharks gotta eat too...


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## AUradar (Oct 1, 2007)

> *gator7_5 (1/8/2008)*throw it back dead. You dont keep undersized snapper just because a porpoise will eat it. Crabs and little fish will munch on that thing for days. I't won't go to waste, and there are plenty of them.


:withstupid

Circle of life, a dead fish will not goto waste in the ocean. Not worth breaking the law.


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## fishn4real (Sep 28, 2007)

> *FenderBender (1/7/2008)*The ethical thing would be to keep the fish and eat it, I hate to see good meat wasted... but try explaining your "ethical" excuse to an FWC officer... :banghead:banghead sucks but you've got to let them float unless you want the ticket.


Breaking the law is "Never" the ethical thing to do.


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## Tuna Man (Oct 2, 2007)

> *fishn4real (1/8/2008)*
> 
> 
> > *FenderBender (1/7/2008)*The ethical thing would be to keep the fish and eat it, I hate to see good meat wasted... but try explaining your "ethical" excuse to an FWC officer... :banghead:banghead sucks but you've got to let them float unless you want the ticket.
> ...


<SPAN id=_ctl1_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl11_lblFullMessage>*Ethics is not following the law. A good system of law does incorporate many ethical standards, but law can deviate from what is ethical*

*Doing what is ETHICAL, and NOT breaking the law, can be and at times are two different things. Just because there is a law for/against something doesn't mean it's ETHICAL.*

*With that said, I stand behind the fact that a dead released fish won't go to waste.*


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## Tippin Slow (Nov 21, 2007)

Stressless,



Grouper was the targeted fish using a Stretch.


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## nb&twil (Oct 2, 2007)

> *Stressless (1/7/2008)*FIRST - It is illegal to target OS redfish with treble hooks.


actually, according to FWC regs, you can't use a a treble when targeting certain species (reds, specs, snook,pompanoand a few more) *only* when using natural live or dead bait. 



> *Stressless (1/7/2008)*
> Don't come on here after making a bad call, smacking your lips and assuaging your guilt by "consuming" the sorry fish. (Legal)


i read the original post to say that a friend of his did this. im not trying to stick my nose where it may not belong, but i have no reason not to trust this guy. if we cant take him at his word for one part of his post, why do on reading the rest for fear that none of it may be true....

like i said, im not trying to stir junk up. i just wanted to state a fact on the law, and defend the original writer.


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## First Catch (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Tuna Man (1/8/2008)*
> 
> 
> > *fishn4real (1/8/2008)*
> ...




People who make the laws are just as fallible as you and I, even though they do a good deed by regulating, and sometimes the law is not always ethical. In this case, the fish would not go to waste but be scavenged on by other sea critters.


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## Mr. Mike (Oct 4, 2007)

I always net OS red fish because of the damage lifting them can do to the internal organs. A treble hook+25lb red+dip net = big trouble. I solved the problem by pinching the barbs shut on all of the barbs but one. 

Haven't lost any fish that I know of and I hope they are in good shape when I release them.


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## Clay-Doh (Oct 2, 2007)

Well, I'm probably gonna get blasted for this...but........jeez I should really go open a beer and just quit typing....

You should see when were shark fishing with a 20/0 circle hook and a whole mullet, and a 42" Red decides to swallow it whole. It looks like Charles Manson was on the boat by the time we get that out.

Throw the fish back if you do not want to risk the fine. That is the law.

However, on an "ethical" side.....remember laws are meant to be enforced not only on good people, but bad people too. Therefore, regardless of how bad the fish is damaged, the law does not make any provisions for at least using it for food. If the entire world were honest, then the laws could be changed...

"it is illegal to keep an OS redfish, unless said fish is mortally wounded beyond revival, then said fish may be kept, but will count againts your daily limit."

But, having dishonest people those laws are meant for also, they cant pass that kinda law...or too many people would ram a fat hook down a fishs throat and yank half his guts out so they could keep him. Soooo..they have regulations that does not allow loopholes to prevent this.

Now as far as ethical...and this is where I'm gonna piss people off, the fishing regulations are soley meant to protect the fish populations, and prevent overharvesting and waste (like the law againts finning sharks????? kinda see the corrolation??).

Can you imagine a native american throwing back into the water, regardless of species, a large fish that he inadavertantly killed? Because of a law that was actually meant to protect that fish? Ethically, it was killed as a result of human intervention, and should be consumed by a human.

Now I am not incouraging lawbreaking, but I am saying, if I have a grill on my boat, and I am out on the water and kill a illegal fish inadvertantly, I feel God would rather me have him in my belly than the crabs.

Ethically, I have a smalllist of deservingpeople I would like to hold hostage in my shed for about amonth and head out there with a bottle of whisky for about an hour a day with some hand tools and torture them like in the movie Hostel. But unfortuately the LAW says that torture combined with murder can net you 2 natural life sentances.

Oops...did I just type that outloud???:doh:letsdrink I better shut up now.


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## User1265 (Oct 15, 2007)

HAHA!! Clay, dude you are a trip. I always enjoy your posts. 

I don't think you said anything that would warant a "blasting" I don't think either decision is unethical in my opinion. I believe you should not waste and eating an OS fish because it was killed unintentionally is not ethically or morally wrong. I would pick the lesser of two evils and put the fish back in the water because I know it would not be wasted and I won't get a fine. But that is me and I don't look down on somebody that would keep it and eat it. Hell you can keepone OS Red just a few miles west of us in AL anyway. 

I don't think keeping stupid people in your shed and torturing them is unethical either. Well, as long as you let me borrow your shed for the same reason.


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## nb&twil (Oct 2, 2007)

clay, you make the forum a better place!! its always good to read your posts. i hope we fish together some day!


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## Clay-Doh (Oct 2, 2007)

Cheers to fishin together soon nb&t!!!:toast

I'm headin over to the Wednesday nite hangout with Litecatch and the gang tommorow evening, which is now switched to the Islan COve MArina....you outta come by for a beer!!


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## nb&twil (Oct 2, 2007)

what happened to sams???


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## Clay-Doh (Oct 2, 2007)

Well...I just found out myself....but ahh.....just come on tommorow!


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

I target bull reds all the time with treble hooks on Stretch 25 and 30's using 20# or above Cobia gear. IfI use much smaller line I'll lose a lot of Stretch lurestrolling and on strikes.... 99% of the fish are released and swim away. 

I have targeted bull reds with a single J hook, a small 1/4 ouncecarolina rig, and chunk bait on 6# test equipmentjust outside the pass. It's very sporting but the reds are nearly "dead" tiredif you get them to the boat. It takes a LOT of effort to revive those fish. It's fun... a good test of your light tackle skill, but TOUGH on the fish! The return rate is A LOT less.

I'm looking for a good compromise on lighter tackle.

Jim

Fire away... or offer suggestions, I'm thick skinned.


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## CurtyV22 (Sep 30, 2007)

The best thing to do is either bend the barbs to the shank with a pair of pliers or to go as far as cutting 1-2 of the hooks off leaving half of each neck to ensure the bait works properly but leaving only one hook per treble to penetrate the fish. This works on top water lures as well as sub-surface. Just ask fenderbender about the bull red that broke of 11lb powerpro at my poorly tied leader to line knot, the one barbless hook on a top water stayed in the fish for the 15 mins i fought monster.:banghead



And then ask him about the one he landed!:toast



CurtyV


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## Clay-Doh (Oct 2, 2007)

Curty...I didnt know you could catch fish!!!!oke

Just kiddin man!

And speakin of ethical....I think someone needs to look at the pic in FenderBenders signature!!!

DUDE LOOKS LIKE AN IRAQUI TERRORIST HOLDIN THAT POOR BEAVER HOSTAGE WITH HIS S&W .40!!!! NOW IS THAT FREAKIN ETHICAL!!!!!!!!:toast:toast


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## CurtyV22 (Sep 30, 2007)

Haha I know I havent seen his skinny ass to give him hell for it!



And If you ever wanna know hot to catch some of them fish you shoot on a fly just lemme know, Ill learn you something:moon



CurtyV


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## beerfish (Nov 9, 2007)

All I know is that we all better pay close attention to the laws that are made and start getting involved and keep watching out for each other or It won't be long before us regular guys won't

be able to fish at all. Some crazy environmentalist might read this thread and start a movement to stop fishing for Reds altogether because one OS might accidentally get injured by a treble hook.


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## FenderBender (Oct 2, 2007)

Ha ha guys ya'll crack me up... Iraqui Cheesin Beaver Terrorist!!! I'm liking it  and I can attest to the fact that CurtyV is a great sportsman... I've never in my life met someone who cares so much for and has so much respect for fish. He could definitly learn most of us on here a thing or two about catching reds and trout, especially on artificial and topwater! And your right Curty, my bull kicked ass even if he was caught on a freelined live shrimp.:blush: not all of us have those TopDog Jr. skills!!!


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## CurtyV22 (Sep 30, 2007)

Hahah well shit at least your fish ain't swimmin around w/ a plug in his mouth:sick....o well its bound to happen when ure fightin bulls in a rippin ass current (strongest Ive ever seen) rustable hooks allow me to sleep at night. And I know how destructive beavers can be to culverts and roads and people!! So Ill forgive you :grouphug:letsdrink





CurtyV


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## FelixH (Sep 28, 2007)

> *Clay-Doh (1/8/2008)*
> 
> DUDE LOOKS LIKE AN IRAQUI TERRORIST HOLDIN THAT POOR BEAVER HOSTAGE WITH HIS S&W .40!!!! NOW IS THAT FREAKIN ETHICAL!!!!!!!!:toast:toast


Nothin' wrong with a good ol' fashioned beaver hunt...


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## gameaholic (Oct 1, 2007)

So Clay.....:shedevil..what kind of grill do you keep on your boat LOL.


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