# Amendment 40 via a CFH Operator



## LopeAlong

Guys Ive enjoyed discussing this with everyone over the last few months but I wanted to share with you the truths and mistruths being construed about 40

First and foremost this does not take away from a single day of your fishing. It doesn't affect your state seasons and your state seasons are the reason we will have a zero day season next year. With or without 40 its going to be ZERO. 

We will get a 34+/- day season next year. This is true. It will be a derby season next year for the CFH. If you want to participate in this and not your 52 plus day state season then buy a permit and c'mon out here. There are plenty for sale that aren't being used.

Your 9 day season will be reduced to ZERO next year. If you don't like this and you want a longer federal season then lobby your state directors to go compliant with federal regulations. But as long as Florida boasts a 52 days season, Texas and Louisiana boast a year round season and now Alabama and Mississippi both showing their willingness to set their own season as well its going to be ZERO

The evil Commercial Guys Lawsuit was not the only reason we had a 9 day season. Guidion v. Pritzer resulted in a 20% buffer taking away a 8 days from our season. Bottom line is we were overfishing our TAC. They stopped it. Want more TAC? talk to the scientist. 

The Alabama reportings will NOT be accepted as a proven science for at least 2 more years. Its science. Its not something they just wake up and invent

My name is Bobby Kelly and I'll be at this meeting all day. Feel free to come up and talk

Miss Brianna
Liquid Therapy 
Gulfshoresfishingcharters.com


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## Gator McKlusky

LopeAlong said:


> Guys Ive enjoyed discussing this with everyone over the last few months but I wanted to share with you the truths and mistruths being construed about 40
> 
> First and foremost this does not take away from a single day of your fishing. It doesn't affect your state seasons and your state seasons are the reason we will have a zero day season next year. With or without 40 its going to be ZERO.
> 
> We will get a 34+/- day season next year. This is true. It will be a derby season next year for the CFH. If you want to participate in this and not your 52 plus day state season then buy a permit and c'mon out here. There are plenty for sale that aren't being used.
> 
> Your 9 day season will be reduced to ZERO next year. If you don't like this and you want a longer federal season then lobby your state directors to go compliant with federal regulations. But as long as Florida boasts a 52 days season, Texas and Louisiana boast a year round season and now Alabama and Mississippi both showing their willingness to set their own season as well its going to be ZERO
> 
> The evil Commercial Guys Lawsuit was not the only reason we had a 9 day season. Guidion v. Pritzer resulted in a 20% buffer taking away a 8 days from our season. Bottom line is we were overfishing our TAC. They stopped it. Want more TAC? talk to the scientist.
> 
> The Alabama reportings will NOT be accepted as a proven science for at least 2 more years. Its science. Its not something they just wake up and invent
> 
> My name is Bobby Kelly and I'll be at this meeting all day. Feel free to come up and talk
> 
> Miss Brianna
> Liquid Therapy
> Gulfshoresfishingcharters.com


 
If you want to particpate in the Florida 52 plus day state season buy a florida fishing license hop on a private boat and come fish. It is open to everyone. Also, since you are not supporting amendment 40 for the money as your ran "240 trips'last year (according to another one of your posts) , but are supporting it so your customrs have the right to fish for snapper, just drop your support for amendment 40 and help out your customers and tell them to hop on a Florida State permitted boat and enjoy the Florida 52 plus day state season.


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## tbaxl

LopeAlong said:


> Guys Ive enjoyed discussing this with everyone over the last few months but I wanted to share with you the truths and mistruths being construed about 40
> 
> First and foremost this does not take away from a single day of your fishing. It doesn't affect your state seasons and your state seasons are the reason we will have a zero day season next year. With or without 40 its going to be ZERO.
> 
> We will get a 34+/- day season next year. This is true. It will be a derby season next year for the CFH. If you want to participate in this and not your 52 plus day state season then buy a permit and c'mon out here. There are plenty for sale that aren't being used.
> 
> Your 9 day season will be reduced to ZERO next year. If you don't like this and you want a longer federal season then lobby your state directors to go compliant with federal regulations. But as long as Florida boasts a 52 days season, Texas and Louisiana boast a year round season and now Alabama and Mississippi both showing their willingness to set their own season as well its going to be ZERO
> 
> The evil Commercial Guys Lawsuit was not the only reason we had a 9 day season. Guidion v. Pritzer resulted in a 20% buffer taking away a 8 days from our season. Bottom line is we were overfishing our TAC. They stopped it. Want more TAC? talk to the scientist.
> 
> The Alabama reportings will NOT be accepted as a proven science for at least 2 more years. Its science. Its not something they just wake up and invent
> 
> My name is Bobby Kelly and I'll be at this meeting all day. Feel free to come up and talk
> 
> Miss Brianna
> Liquid Therapy
> Gulfshoresfishingcharters.com



Well shoot why didn't you just say that earlier, make stotal sense now, count me in. NOT. Call it what you will but Amd 40 just opens the door for more and more restrictions. I am in complete favor of we are all in this together, we can catch fish together or we can all watch ARS over populate and destroy all other reef fish. Point is the reasoning/science is wrong and being manipulate as is the CFH fleet. No matter what happens someone is going to be unhappy and I sure hope it is the commercial fishing fleet. I have nothing against the CFH but from the rec point of view you guys chose the wrong side.


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## LopeAlong

Tbaxl do you own a federal permit?

No? Then just let me worry about any future restrictions or regulations in my industry


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## LopeAlong

Gator, my clients prefer a/c, stand up bathrooms and lots of boat under them when they go out into the big water.


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## JoeZ

So instead of blaming decades of bad science and poor management of a public resources by the Gulf Council, NMFS and NOAA - and overly restrictive language in Magnussen Stevens - you're just going to blame the states and ultimately the recreational anglers whose interests they're looking out for?

Instead of squabbling over crumbs, why not push to get the problem solved?


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## Tom Hilton

*"First and foremost this does not take away from a single day of your fishing."*

Bobby Kelly - you are a bald-faced liar.

Just look at the numbers - private recs have been landing 67 to 77% of the Gulf recreational red snapper the last few years. That means the for-hire boats have been landing 23-33% of the fish.

If AM 40 is implemented, it will be using data from years ago to apportion the fish - I think the latest % split was 56% PR and 44% For-hire.

Where are those extra fish coming from for the for-hire? Stolen from the private recs, and that means LESS fishing days for the private recs, contrary to your diatribe, and evidenced by the projected 34 days for you and 1 day for us if AM 40 is implemented.

AM 40 also sets the stage for recreational IFQs, which YOU would own and further take days away for generations of fishermen to come.


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## Burnt Drag

The red snapper fishery, the Gulf of Mexico, and all the fish it holds belongs to the people. No entity has the right to "capture" a specific portion of any of it and call it their own. Amendment 40 does that. Case Closed.


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## TeaSea

Burnt Drag said:


> The red snapper fishery, the Gulf of Mexico, and all the fish it holds belongs to the people. No entity has the right to "capture" a specific portion of any of it and call it their own. Amendment 40 does that. Case Closed.


I know 'fairness' or 'common sense' don't apply here because if they did they would calculate how many Snapper could be caught for a given year and then open up applications for ANYONE to apply for tags. So if they say 2 million fish can be caught and 250,000 people apply each applicant would get 8 tags and could catch the 8 fish out of their boat or a charter boat or a SUP if that's their thing. Make it equal to every fisherman/woman. 
Remember 'Animal Farm' -- "all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others"? what BS


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## Tom Hilton

Nothing fair about fish tags - tags are NOT the answer.


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## markw4321

TeaSea said:


> I know 'fairness' or 'common sense' don't apply here because if they did they would calculate how many Snapper could be caught for a given year and then open up applications for ANYONE to apply for tags. So if they say 2 million fish can be caught and 250,000 people apply each applicant would get 8 tags and could catch the 8 fish out of their boat or a charter boat or a SUP if that's their thing. Make it equal to every fisherman/woman.
> Remember 'Animal Farm' -- "all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others"? what BS


 
well lets do some math. there are 3 million saltwater anglers in florida alone. that doesnt count for the other gulf states....

6 million recreational pounds of fish that weigh 7 pounds on average each. but for simplicity we will use a 6 pound average. so that would mean at most 1 million tags for all the fisherman in texas, alabama, mississipppi, florida, and louisiana, each fisherman might get one or two tags.


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## 192

States should claim territorial waters out to 30 fathoms, snapper should be regionalized in Florida and the Feds should piss off, just like supporters of 40 should.


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## LopeAlong

Heck Tom Hilton why don't you just take this year and next years percentage for gifting the CFH fish. You know, the years where the federal permit holders had their access denied to harvesting the fish in state waters because of 30b. 

It doesn't matter if 40 gives us 60% or 5%. Federal season next year is zero. Say it with me
ZERO. 

And call me a liar face to face you sackless prick.


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## LopeAlong

markw4321 said:


> well lets do some math. there are 3 million saltwater anglers in florida alone. that doesnt count for the other gulf states....
> 
> 6 million recreational pounds of fish that weigh 7 pounds on average each. but for simplicity we will use a 6 pound average. so that would mean at most 1 million tags for all the fisherman in texas, alabama, mississipppi, florida, and louisiana, each fisherman might get one or two tags.


How many of those fish for the red snapper?


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## markw4321

LopeAlong said:


> How many of those fish for the red snapper?


the question is how many will try and get a tag whether they really want to use it or not. 

better yet if the national marine fisheries service had done their freaking job years ago we would know "How many of those fish for the red snapper?" and we would not be in the mess we are in now with sector separation.


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## Tom Hilton

Bobby Kelly,
Again, you put forth rubbish as the truth and your only response is to threaten physical violence (again).

If you don't want to be called a liar, don't lie amigo.


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## LopeAlong

markw4321 said:


> the question is how many will try and get a tag whether they really want to use it or not.
> 
> better yet if the national marine fisheries service had done their freaking job years ago we would know "How many of those fish for the red snapper?" and we would not be in the mess we are in now with sector separation.


If you want tags or don't want tags then you'll need to get up here and campaign. All of your 3k comments were summed up in less than 2 minutes. Hours of online campaigning surmised in 2 minutes. They didn't mention counting of for/against, just a summary. Carry on keyboard warriors. 

Hilton I'm not threating physical violence. That would be illegal. And as you've been very quick to point out in your sackless ways that you'll consult legal counsel. Pity. 

Btw...what's your count on the vote for the council?


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## sniperpeeps

LopeAlong said:


> Gator, my clients prefer a/c, stand up bathrooms and lots of boat under them when they go out into the big water.



Mine don't.


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## feelin' wright

LopeAlong said:


> Heck Tom Hilton why don't you just take this year and next years percentage for gifting the CFH fish. You know, the years where the federal permit holders had their access denied to harvesting the fish in state waters because of 30b.
> 
> It doesn't matter if 40 gives us 60% or 5%. Federal season next year is zero. Say it with me
> ZERO.
> 
> And call me a liar face to face you sackless prick.


Recreational anglers had nothing to do with 30b. Your bitch is with NMFS. Instead of fighting the good fight you decided to try and take from others for pure profit. Can you explain why your customers deserve the right to harvest snapper while my family from out of town does not have that right from my boat. 

I am just fine with a zero federal season next year if it causes some massive changes in the federal management (or rather give it to the states). Matter of fact if they are that endangered then they should shut down the state season as well. Fact is they are not overfished nor have we actually met our limit in the short time frame they say. They pick a date, shut it down and make the math work.


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## sniperpeeps

The only people this amendment does anything for is the federally permitted CFH boats, which as has been stated before is less than 1000 boats actually fishing. So with that in mind, it hurts every non-federal CFH boat, every private rec boat, and kayakers, and anyone else who may find a way to fish for snapper NOT on a federally permitted boat. And the whole "I want my customers to have the chance to fish for snapper" argument is old. Honestly, if I was a federal permit holder, which I am not by choice, I would try to get 20b (I think that's the one that doesn't allow fed boats to fish state seasons?) repealed rather than alienate my neighbors and friends by being greedy. Why not work with the rec guys rather than segregate yourselves into a smaller group? Ultimately, it is the recreational side that will end up changing things. Yes, the CFA and others are organized and have lobbying power now, but within the next couple of years all these boat manufacturers, congressman, senators, and other with money and pull are going to say enough is enough and I bet a dime on a dollar that it's you guys who will end up with the short straw then. The rec anglers have the states on our side already, just imagine if the fed CFH were on the same side and not fighting against us. It would make the fight that much stronger. IMO, you guys chose the wrong side of the fight. It may help you temporarily, but ultimately I feel you will regret it. Just my .2


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## tbaxl

LopeAlong said:


> Tbaxl do you own a federal permit?
> 
> No? Then just let me worry about any future restrictions or regulations in my industry


Hate to disappoint you, but I am not worried about you, just myself and my family and our ability to catch the people's snapper. This passes and trust us the camels nose is under the tent for all of us. The way I see it is guys like you hate the fact that other people have boats and can catch fish themselves instead of paying you to take them out on your boat with a toilet and a/c. What is the word I am looking for, oh well someone else will help me out.


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## tbaxl

LopeAlong said:


> Heck Tom Hilton why don't you just take this year and next years percentage for gifting the CFH fish. You know, the years where the federal permit holders had their access denied to harvesting the fish in state waters because of 30b.
> 
> It doesn't matter if 40 gives us 60% or 5%. Federal season next year is zero. Say it with me
> ZERO.
> 
> And call me a liar face to face you sackless prick.


As you said earlier, keyboard cowboy. Remember you booked 240 or so trips this year without ARS, you'll be fine with zero days as will the rest of us. I do feel bad for the CFH crowd who think of more than themselves and today, maybe we rec guys can book some trips with them next year to fill the gaps, I know I will at least once.


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## Sea Monkey

Wirelessly posted



JoeZ said:


> So instead of blaming decades of bad science and poor management of a public resources by the Gulf Council, NMFS and NOAA - and overly restrictive language in Magnussen Stevens - you're just going to blame the states and ultimately the recreational anglers whose interests they're looking out for?
> 
> Instead of squabbling over crumbs, why not push to get the problem solved?


The OLE Real Truth!!!
This and only this. The CFH guys need to fight the real issue.
Joe you took the words out of my mouth.

GET'EM OFF THE BOTTOM"


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## The LaJess II

Bobby Kelly can you repeat for all on here what you meant in your statement a little while ago to the council that if they voted in favor of am 40 you could then tell the Federal Judge look hear we got 75% now. What exactly was your meaning of saying that to the council? And please elaborate on that statement. I’m pretty sure I know what you meant but please share with the rest of the forum members.


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## 2RC's II

LopeAlong said:


> Heck Tom Hilton why don't you just take this year and next years percentage for gifting the CFH fish. You know, the years where the federal permit holders had their access denied to harvesting the fish in state waters because of 30b.
> 
> It doesn't matter if 40 gives us 60% or 5%. Federal season next year is zero. Say it with me
> ZERO.
> 
> And call me a liar face to face you sackless prick.


 Well actually I wondered if you were an AH because your momma was one and you just are one because of that or you practiced to be one. My guess is it's hereditary. IJS!


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## 2RC's II

But that's just one mans opinion. I don't give a flip about RS but a bunch of my friends do.


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## JoeyWelch

LopeAlong said:


> Heck Tom Hilton why don't you just take this year and next years percentage for gifting the CFH fish. You know, the years where the federal permit holders had their access denied to harvesting the fish in state waters because of 30b.
> 
> It doesn't matter if 40 gives us 60% or 5%. Federal season next year is zero. Say it with me
> ZERO.
> 
> And call me a liar face to face you sackless prick.



*Sounds like someone develops vaginits when things don't go their way.








*


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## The LaJess II

Bobby Kelly if amendment 40 is such a grand plan then why on earth are you charter guys telling them you want the sunsetter removed. If I knew my plan was bullet proof it would not matter if a sunsetter was added. Explain that.


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## 2RC's II

LopeAlong said:


> Heck Tom Hilton why don't you just take this year and next years percentage for gifting the CFH fish. You know, the years where the federal permit holders had their access denied to harvesting the fish in state waters because of 30b.
> 
> It doesn't matter if 40 gives us 60% or 5%. Federal season next year is zero. Say it with me
> ZERO.
> 
> And call me a liar face to face you sackless prick.


 You gotta love this call me to my face BS. I think ole Tom has done this numerous times. Well maybe not to your face but he is most likely a little older than you. Anyway grow up you POS! Again I don't give a flip about RS but you need an attitude adjustment calling out Hilton. Peckerhead! Well most likely Cabbage head. RTR


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## LopeAlong

The LaJess II said:


> Bobby Kelly if amendment 40 is such a grand plan then why on earth are you charter guys telling them you want the sunsetter removed. If I knew my plan was bullet proof it would not matter if a sunsetter was added. Explain that.


Because I don't wanna spend another $5,000 of my own money fighting for 40 in 3 year. I want it to have the same 5 year review the other programs have. I've spent $5,000 of my own money on this trail for the last 15 months now. That's why. 

Next...

Ps. Where's Tom Hilton? He didn't even make a comment


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## LopeAlong

2RC's II said:


> You gotta love this call me to my face BS. I think ole Tom has done this numerous times. Well maybe not to your face but he is most likely a little older than you. Anyway grow up you POS! Again I don't give a flip about RS but you need an attitude adjustment calling out Hilton. Peckerhead! Well most likely Cabbage head. RTR


No he hasn't. He's called a room sonavabitches but never me face to face. He even left today before public comment.


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## Tom Hilton

You tried to assault me in Orange Beach before I even said a word Bobby Kelly - a state trooper had to restrain you in your seat. If you are a liar, I will tell it to your face, or put it in writing and have it notarized if you like - to claim you aren't taking away our fishing days and fish with AM 40 is a blatant lie.

I came to Mobile to do what I needed to do - making another comment at public comments wasn't going to change the minds of the people who have already made up their minds - I had more pressing business in Texas that I had to attend to.


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## Gator McKlusky

Listening in to webinar the alabama state representaive Anson just announced he would support sector separation amendment 40 if there is a three year sunset amendment included (sunset meaning that council will have to take action to renewin within three years).


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## Gator McKlusky

just voted 7 no votes and 10 yes votes. Amendment 40 has passed.


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## Bean Counter

They passed it. Let the lawsuits begin.


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## LopeAlong

10-7


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## JoeZ

It passed with a three-year sunset clause.


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## Tom Hilton

Sad day for Gulf recreational fishermen - now and all future generations.


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## The LaJess II

It passed the council but still has to be approved by Secretary of Commerce. If Secretary has issue with it going against the MSA it could be thrown out is my understanding.


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## MrFish49

So what are the charters to avoid in this then?


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## southbound

Alabama sold out to the the sunset clause. The American Sport Fishing assoc. also sold out to the sunset clause. I will let Chris Blankenship know what I think about him.


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## Tom Hilton

I hope Alabama doesn't backslide on the sunset provision like they just did on their Alabama reefing zone biomass numbers.


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## LopeAlong

Actually passed by 1 more than I thought. Kevin flopped on us last minute.


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## LopeAlong

The LaJess II said:


> It passed the council but still has to be approved by Secretary of Commerce. If Secretary has issue with it going against the MSA it could be thrown out is my understanding.


Nope that's why the added the provision about the codified text and bring able to change the language to suit legal requirements.


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## feelin' wright

Any of them in OB Alabama. RFA already stated they will be suing due to legality issues in the MSA that prevent discrimination when setting regulations. Either way there would not have been a federal season nor will their be one in the near future. Only solution now is to have state waters pushed out to 21 fathoms and continue to go non compliant, if the NMFS states we went over who gives a shit since there will not be a federal season. This will no longer affect the CFH guys so they should not have much to bitch about.


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## The LaJess II

LopeAlong said:


> Nope that's why the added the provision about the codified text and bring able to change the language to suit legal requirements.


 Regardless the Secretary can still throw it out.


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## Burnt Drag

Now we will get to see the ugly side of this sham. I can't wait to hear all the squealing when one charter operation is gifted more days or fish or whatever than the other guys.


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## markw4321

here is who they are :

http://www.gulfcouncil.org/about/fishery_council_members.php


here is how they voted 
Corky Perret (MS) – y
Roy Williams (FL) – y
Johnny Sanchez (FL)– y
Harlan Pearce (LA) – y
Pam Dana (FL) – y
Camp Matens (LA) – n
Leean Bosarge (MS) – y
Dale Walker (AL) – y
Roy Crabtree (NMFS) – y
Dale Diaz (MS) – n
Doug Boyd - (TX) – n
Greg Stunz (TX) – n
Johnny Greene (AL) – y
Robin Riechers (TX) – n
Martha Bademan (FL) – n
Myron Fischer (LA) – n
Kevin Anson (AL) – y


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## tbaxl

MrFish49 said:


> So what are the charters to avoid in this then?


Well Burnt Drag has been against from the beginning as well as Sniperpeeps and a couple others. Those have have been against need a sticky at the top, those who are for it can make money off the tourist. When ever you see a CFH boat fishing, pull up next and drop a line or just chum them off the spot.


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## tbaxl

LopeAlong said:


> Actually passed by 1 more than I thought. Kevin flopped on us last minute.


Good luck Lope, hope this one does not bite you in the rear.


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## The LaJess II

FRA says they are moving forward with litigation and it's not over until we say it's over.


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## HappyHourHero

LopeAlong really vibes me out for some reason.


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## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> Guys Ive enjoyed discussing this with everyone over the last few months but I wanted to share with you the truths and mistruths being construed about 40
> 
> First and foremost this does not take away from a single day of your fishing. It doesn't affect your state seasons and your state seasons are the reason we will have a zero day season next year. With or without 40 its going to be ZERO.
> 
> We will get a 34+/- day season next year. This is true. It will be a derby season next year for the CFH. If you want to participate in this and not your 52 plus day state season then buy a permit and c'mon out here. There are plenty for sale that aren't being used.
> 
> Your 9 day season will be reduced to ZERO next year. If you don't like this and you want a longer federal season then lobby your state directors to go compliant with federal regulations. But as long as Florida boasts a 52 days season, Texas and Louisiana boast a year round season and now Alabama and Mississippi both showing their willingness to set their own season as well its going to be ZERO
> 
> The evil Commercial Guys Lawsuit was not the only reason we had a 9 day season. Guidion v. Pritzer resulted in a 20% buffer taking away a 8 days from our season. Bottom line is we were overfishing our TAC. They stopped it. Want more TAC? talk to the scientist.
> 
> The Alabama reportings will NOT be accepted as a proven science for at least 2 more years. Its science. Its not something they just wake up and invent
> 
> My name is Bobby Kelly and I'll be at this meeting all day. Feel free to come up and talk
> 
> Miss Brianna
> Liquid Therapy
> Gulfshoresfishingcharters.com


Go back and hang with the EDF you were hanging with at the meeting yesterday. You can also go and shove your sector seperation up your ass you sorry bitch.


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## 192

Corruption....


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## scott44

grouper22 said:


> Corruption....


Yep


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## scott44

HappyHourHero said:


> LopeAlong really vibes me out for some reason.


He pegs my creepomiter too....


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## Tom Hilton

Now all of the Gulf states need to open up their state waters to 365 days starting January 1st - there will be *NO FEDERAL SEASON AT ALL*. I hope the charter guys who pushed for this nonsense enjoy themselves - I feel for the CFH guys who are a victim in this mess though.

Also LOTS of legal issues that the separatists didn't think about that will be coming out in the lawsuits coming down the pike...


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## old school

*40*

So now it is the rec guys aginst the charter guys. This is BS and I am ready to make every charter wish they had not done ths. By the way all you SS charter guys reading this can kiss my ass!


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly

This is such a sham. Adam (Sniperpeeps) and I were just talking about how the Destin CFH fleet was out fishing every single day this season,as we're CFH boats all over the Gulf Coast. Where is the devastating financial loss that they were all screaming about because of a 9 day season? It didn't happen. Small boat state water captains like Adam and me, were just as busy this year as we wanted to be. We did not have one trip out of the move 400 plus trips we ran yell us that they came to us to fish because we could catch ARS, and the federally permitted CFH fleet couldn't. This is all bullshit and the federally permitted CFH guys that support this, are not in it for fishermen, only their wallets...


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## Water Spout II

glad the charter guys who contribute like 1/10th to the economy that rec guys do feel they are so much more entitled to a public fishery then we are. Screw all of them. I could care less if "it is your profession."


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## southbound

A quote from a Ft. Morgan Captain who I use to respect.during the public comment period. He said "A man who is strong helps himself, a man who is stronger helps others". And then went on to say that the rec guys had state waters to fish in and that sector separation needed to pass. I hope you read this R.E. As you blow past me wave while I am trying to find snapper in 40 feet of water 3 miles out. I understand your plight but evidently you do not understand mine.


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## spike

Join the Fishing Rights Alliance !!!!! Help support the law suit.


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## LopeAlong

flounderslayerman said:


> Go back and hang with the EDF fucktards you were hanging with at the meeting yesterday. You can also go and shove your sector seperation up your ass you sorry bitch.


Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder. 

Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper. 

We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents. 

You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access.


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## 192

Call it what you want. I will do everything I can to disuade vistors from supporting those resource whoring individuals that support this under the guise of "conservation".


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## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder.
> 
> Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper.
> 
> We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents.
> 
> You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access.


How's does it affect me ? Well let's see I like to catch snapper to but don't want to be stuck in state waters all the time. You're nothing but agreedy thief who's only worried about yourself and no one else. Same to all the CFH guys who are for this bs.


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## 49913

Captain Mickey O'Reilly said:


> This is such a sham. Adam (Sniperpeeps) and I were just talking about how the Destin CFH fleet was out fishing every single day this season,as we're CFH boats all over the Gulf Coast. Where is the devastating financial loss that they were all screaming about because of a 9 day season? It didn't happen. Small boat state water captains like Adam and me, were just as busy this year as we wanted to be. We did not have one trip out of the move 400 plus trips we ran yell us that they came to us to fish because we could catch ARS, and the federally permitted CFH fleet couldn't. This is all bullshit and the federally permitted CFH guys that support this, are not in it for fishermen, only their wallets...


 
We're all guilty as hell. We all stand around and argue about silly things, religion, politics; we allow elected people to pit us all against each other, and scream at each other, while they rob the bank. And we all want to think that our system still works, and that if enough people show up and voice their concerns at public meetings, that it will make a difference. It won't. You are exactly right, this thing isn't about anything but money. But it didn't happen in a vacuum. If the CFH had a plan and money to spend, somebody had to be willing to take it. Call me cynical, but I don't believe anything a government official tells me, at least not until I know where his money is coming from. This thing was predictable from the start, and all the nastiness here has been a waste of time. The only thing that counts anymore is having some money to grease the skids, and knowing which skids are for sale.


----------



## markw4321

LopeAlong said:


> Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder.
> 
> Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper.
> 
> We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents.
> 
> You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access.


Bobby, 


Due to your and others support of Amendment 40 charter boat customers who are RECREATIONAL FISHERMAN will now enjoy special privileges to fish for and harvest red snapper in federal waters, when all other private recreational fisherman fishing from their own boats cannot, even though they are also RECREATIONAL FISHERMAN. 

Your actions effectively ended a way of life that all gulf recreational fisherman running their own boats and my family have enjoyed for decades. For me and my family that date goes back 3 generations of fishing on gulf waters back to 1956. 

I hope that you live out the rest of your life in self-reflective abject shame for what you have supported in bringing this intiative forward and seeing it through to passing.


----------



## markw4321




----------



## LopeAlong

flounderslayerman said:


> How's does it affect me ? Well let's see I like to catch snapper to but don't want to be stuck in state waters all the time. You're nothing but agreedy thief who's only worried about yourself and no one else. Same to all the CFH guys who are for this bs.


40 didn't stick you in state waters. Never will. The 5.39 million pounds is eaten up by 5 states of noncompliance and the buffer. I'm no mathologist or anything fancy but if 5 states ate up the TAC at 5.39mil lbs I'm sure it'll eat up your 3million pounds. 

Man this is hard to say but I agree with Hilton. 5 states, 365 of red snapper season.


----------



## LopeAlong

But Elliot please tell me how wrong it is to watch one group of people catch fish and your not allowed. Please elaborate on that injustice


----------



## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> But Elliot please tell me how wrong it is to watch one group of people catch fish and you can't. Please elaborate on that injustice


No one group should have special privilege over another that's how its an injustice. You have no more right then me to catch rs but the feds seem to think so and so do you and that is just wrong.


----------



## ssrs69camaro

I think the CFH and Commercial boats should now be only allowed to catch rs on natural bottom.Since artifical reefs,rigs,tanks,etc. don't count in the bio mass,all federal licensed boats should be fined and their license revoked if caught fishing at those areas.Also the FRA should add a clause in their lawsuit, the Feds have to buy our boats,tackle,etc. since we no longer have our God given rights to fish for OUR natural resource.Time for the OUTLAWS to take over.


----------



## scott44

What's the plan now? Looks to me like it's over except the cussing and a few tears.


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## southbound

LopeAlong 
Senior Member
Snapper

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 473 










Quote:
Originally Posted by *flounderslayerman*  
_Go back and hang with the EDF fucktards you were hanging with at the meeting yesterday. You can also go and shove your sector seperation up your ass you sorry bitch._

Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder. 

Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper. 

We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents. 

You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access. 




Talking about being used as a tool. I hope you have plenty of Vaseline???


----------



## LopeAlong

flounderslayerman said:


> No one group should have special privilege over another that's how its an injustice. You have no more right then me to catch rs but the feds seem to think so and so do you and that is just wrong.


Are you reading the words you just wrote? The states decided to open seasons to which I couldn't take part in. Sucks having to take a spoonful of your medicine
doesnt it


----------



## lastcast

LopeAlong said:


> Are you reading the words you just wrote? The states decided to open seasons to which I couldn't take part in. Sucks having to take a spoonful of your medicine
> doesnt it


You can take part in. Come fish with us!


----------



## Burnt Drag

LopeAlong said:


> Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder.
> 
> Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper.
> 
> We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents.
> 
> You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access.


Bobby, isn't this the same group who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars attempting to un-seat Steve Southard, a dedicated advocate for 
the fisherman?


----------



## Mark Collins

Burnt Drag said:


> The red snapper fishery, the Gulf of Mexico, and all the fish it holds belongs to the people. No entity has the right to "capture" a specific portion of any of it and call it their own. Amendment 40 does that. Case Closed.


Now Thats The Way to Tell It Like It Is
My hats off to you sir


----------



## The LaJess II

The outcome would have been the same but Pam Dana and John Greene should not have been allowed to vote on this issue due to being charter boat owners. That was brought up in the meeting but apparently it wasn't a issue to the council.


----------



## Mark Collins

LopeAlong said:


> Are you reading the words you just wrote? The states decided to open seasons to which I couldn't take part in. Sucks having to take a spoonful of your medicine
> doesnt it


Dont hate the state for what the Feds made you do to keep your permits


----------



## The LaJess II

Before I forget. Bobby have you made the appointment with the Federal Judge so you can say now look here we have 75%?


----------



## Burnt Drag

I simply call it the way I see it..... thanks for the comment, Capt.


----------



## tbaxl

LopeAlong said:


> Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder.
> 
> Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper.
> 
> We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents.
> 
> You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access.


Hey Lope wait till your new buddies see the amount to soot your boats put out, your time will come. I will say congratulations to you and your brethren, I don't agree with you and will never book a trip with any of you, but it all comes down to feeding your family and that I respect.


----------



## LopeAlong

The LaJess II said:


> Before I forget. Bobby have you made the appointment with the Federal Judge so you can say now look here we have 75%?


Awww, you listen! The appointment hasn't been made yet but I'm sure CCA, FRA, and RFA all will be setting that appointment sooner rather than later.


----------



## Matt Mcleod

We won a major victory today in the fight against sector separation! The 3 year sunset provision will be the death of this effort. Several large charter operators drummed up support for this plan based on two ideas. 1. This will benefit ALL permitted charter boats. 2. It will not negatively effect the recreational sector. The reason they were furious about the sunset provision is that they know in 3 years time the cat will be out of the bag! Many small to medium size charter operators will not see the benefits the large operations will and the recreational sector will suffer. 

This will NOT have the charter support needed to pass in 3 years. 

It's also probable there will not be the liberal government support at that point with the possibility of a republican controlled House, Senate, and White House. Remember many of these NOAA folks are presidential appointees. 

We got lucky!!


----------



## The LaJess II

LopeAlong said:


> Awww, you listen! The appointment hasn't been made yet but I'm sure CCA, FRA, and RFA all will be setting that appointment sooner rather than later.


 Awww, sure did. And yep FRA announced on the news that they would be there. 

You guys all talked about feeding your family. Did you take into account about the families you now are taking away from? Bait & Tackle stores, marina's, boat companies, sporting good stores. They all have employees that depend on all the recreational fishermen not just a handful of you. No you didn't. It's all about entitlement.


----------



## Contender

Looks to me like another welfare program, and entitlement to a few CFH guys. It's certainly not about the ARS or the resource. If was about the resource there would be some conversation regarding shrimper by-catch (a major impact on RS) or some reduction in the commercial take. 

I believe / think it was a lot more about the Fed/State feud and CFH guys trying to squeeze more trips. It is ironic that the NMFS is in the Dept of Commerce whose mission is to support and encourage commerce though the type commerce they mostly support is the direct kind -- commercial fishing, fish houses and CFH. Unless the charter is changed to limit commercial interest from voting on regs then little will change unless it is through the courts. 

Glad RFA and others are headed in that direction.


----------



## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> Are you reading the words you just wrote? The states decided to open seasons to which I couldn't take part in. Sucks having to take a spoonful of your medicine
> doesnt it


The states did nothing but try and look out for us. At least someone is looking to help and not look at how they can fatten their own pockets like you by basically stealing a resource that belongs to everyone.


----------



## Seaquility

LopeAlong said:


> Not sure how this affects you Elliot? It doesn't affect anyone here unless they're a federal permit holder.
> 
> Yep I've been hanging out with EDF, PEW, Oceania, Ocean Conservency, and all the evil Enviro's. They're great people that all care about one thing. Conservation of the Red Snapper.
> 
> We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents.
> 
> You guys are in the drivers seat now for your fishery. You no longer need to combat CFH's and hopefully can come together to figure out a plan for yourselves to increase your access.


I just returned from out of town and am just catching up on the news of the past day or two. I don't know you, so it is a stretch to make assumptions about your character from reading some message board/forum, but this statement about the EDF, PEW, etc. is a bit telling. You are a guy who is looking out for his livelihood and family. I get it, and while I don't agree with you, it is certainly your right to fight for what you think is right. But, Sir, if you think that the enviro crowd has any interest in you or anyone else fishing for ARS or any other fish, I believe you are being deceived.


----------



## LopeAlong

Matt Mcleod said:


> We won a major victory today in the fight against sector separation! The 3 year sunset provision will be the death of this effort. Several large charter operators drummed up support for this plan based on two ideas. 1. This will benefit ALL permitted charter boats. 2. It will not negatively effect the recreational sector. The reason they were furious about the sunset provision is that they know in 3 years time the cat will be out of the bag! Many small to medium size charter operators will not see the benefits the large operations will and the recreational sector will suffer.
> 
> This will NOT have the charter support needed to pass in 3 years.
> 
> It's also probable there will not be the liberal government support at that point with the possibility of a republican controlled House, Senate, and White House. Remember many of these NOAA folks are presidential appointees.
> 
> We got lucky!!


The 3 year sunset provision was put in place to get us to state management which is years away from being ready. I wouldn't be so sure that we'll just roll over and play dead at the end of 2018. 

So I've stolen these fish? That's not even remotely close to the truth and you know it. Your just recycling what Hilton has said. This does not affect the federal season in anyway. Didn't really think you could get smaller than a ZERO day season next year. The way I see it the states are stealing fish from me. I can't go harvest them. There's nothing fair and equitable about a TAC being caught in state waters that are off limits to me. 

I've told all of you before this isn't going to make me a dime more money. It's going to let more people catch and keep a fish. Plain and simple.


----------



## Tom Hilton

407d.

Let all 5 Gulf states open their seasons as Bobby Kelly has suggested - it will close the federal waters to EVERYONE, including the separatists.


----------



## sniperpeeps

So if the states are already over fishing the TAC to the point of a 0 day federal season, where is the TAC coming from for the CFH fleet? I mean, it's already being overfished so are they going to add to the overfishing by allowing the CFH fleet to fish just because of 40b? Te numbers don't add up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Matt Mcleod

LopeAlong said:


> Matt Mcleod said:
> 
> 
> 
> We won a major victory today in the fight against sector separation! The 3 year sunset provision will be the death of this effort. Several large charter operators drummed up support for this plan based on two ideas. 1. This will benefit ALL permitted charter boats. 2. It will not negatively effect the recreational sector. The reason they were furious about the sunset provision is that they know in 3 years time the cat will be out of the bag! Many small to medium size charter operators will not see the benefits the large operations will and the recreational sector will suffer.
> 
> This will NOT have the charter support needed to pass in 3 years.
> 
> It's also probable there will not be the liberal government support at that point with the possibility of a republican controlled House, Senate, and White House. Remember many of these NOAA folks are presidential appointees.
> 
> We got lucky!!
> 
> 
> 
> The 3 year sunset provision was put in place to get us to state management which is years away from being ready. I wouldn't be so sure that we'll just roll over and play dead at the end of 2018.
Click to expand...

You can try to sell that bullcrap somewhere else. The sunset provision was put in place cause there's a hell of a lot of opposition to this ridiculousness. 

You can roll over and play dead stand up and raise hell or do whatever you please. This dies once and for all in 3 years and you know it. 

I have a reef fish permit also.


----------



## Water Spout II

LopeAlong said:


> The 3 year sunset provision was put in place to get us to state management which is years away from being ready. I wouldn't be so sure that we'll just roll over and play dead at the end of 2018.
> 
> So I've stolen these fish? That's not even remotely close to the truth and you know it. Your just recycling what Hilton has said. This does not affect the federal season in anyway. Didn't really think you could get smaller than a ZERO day season next year. The way I see it the states are stealing fish from me. I can't go harvest them. There's nothing fair and equitable about a TAC being caught in state waters that are off limits to me.
> 
> I've told all of you before this isn't going to make me a dime more money. It's going to let more people catch and keep a fish. Plain and simple.


that is a load of crap and you know it. 

Yes, you are taking fish away from the rec fisherman because part of our TAC is now given to you for you specifically to catch. 

How is this not going to make you a dime more money? You are expected to now have a 30-45 day snapper season to take charters versus a 9 day season. 

If this didn't make you more money, why do you support it?


----------



## tbaxl

I guess what really gets me is the fact that we have these private deployed reefs and no chance to fish them. But you can bet the CFH guys will be all over em cleaning as many close in as possible. So again I say if you see the Intimidator or Miss Briana close in, go pull up next to them and catch and release, or chum them to the surface and fly fish. In other words fishing disobedience.


----------



## captaindye251

*


The LaJess II said:



The outcome would have been the same but Pam Dana and John Greene should not have been allowed to vote on this issue due to being charter boat owners. That was brought up in the meeting but apparently it wasn't a issue to the council.

Click to expand...

*No conflict of interest there huh? Figures...


----------



## LopeAlong

Tom Hilton said:


> 407d.
> 
> Let all 5 Gulf states open their seasons as Bobby Kelly has suggested - it will close the federal waters to EVERYONE, including the separatists.


No it won't. The headboats rationed their fish all the way through September. Last I checked that would have been way after one sector reached it's quota. 

Tom what happened? You said you had the votes. Where did you miscount


----------



## JCTide

LopeAlong said:


> The 3 year sunset provision was put in place to get us to state management which is years away from being ready. I wouldn't be so sure that we'll just roll over and play dead at the end of 2018.
> 
> So I've stolen these fish? That's not even remotely close to the truth and you know it. Your just recycling what Hilton has said. This does not affect the federal season in anyway. Didn't really think you could get smaller than a ZERO day season next year. The way I see it the states are stealing fish from me. I can't go harvest them. There's nothing fair and equitable about a TAC being caught in state waters that are off limits to me.
> 
> I've told all of you before this isn't going to make me a dime more money. It's going to let more people catch and keep a fish. Plain and simple.[/quote
> 
> Whatever...


----------



## LopeAlong

Tom Hilton said:


> 407d.
> 
> Let all 5 Gulf states open their seasons as Bobby Kelly has suggested - it will close the federal waters to EVERYONE, including the separatists.


No it won't. The headboats rationed their fish all the way through September. Last I checked that would have been way after one sector reached it's quota. 

Tom what happened? You said you had the votes. Where did you miscount

But before we open up the gulf for a 365 free for all maybe we should look up the secretary of commences powers of preemption. (I think that's how you spell that)


----------



## Vail1919

If we go by your reasoning Tom, that the CFH is stealing from the Rec side because y'all/we have, " for the last few years" caught 66-77% of tr TAC; then what the split 10 years ago? Or 20 years ago? Exactly!! Case and Point! 

Note 2
If you want to call it stealing, then we/y'all the Rec side stole it first, just slowly over the years. How? More recreational boats. The CFH industry has historically caught a more equal % of the quota. All the CFH industry is trying to do with AM 40 is get on a fair playing field.

Note 3
The simple truth is: we are all getting screwed by the government. Aren't we use to it? It does not/will not change overnight. Best resolution, quit bitching and blaming! Spend that effort writing a letter to your congressman. The squeaky wheel gets oiled! Our wheel hasn't squeaked loud enough yet. At tr end of the day we are all on the same team. 

Note 4
The reason I refer to y'all/we when speaking is because I recreationally fished for 12 years before jumping in the CFH game. Have been then about 10 years, with a 3 year hiatus. So I see both sides. I have recently left the CFH business or will this year, but I can still see both sides. So to think I'm one sided one way or the other would be foolish.


----------



## Vail1919

*Duplicate, sorry*

If we go by your reasoning Tom, that the CFH is stealing from the Rec side because y'all/we have, " for the last few years" caught 66-77% of tr TAC; then what the split 10 years ago? Or 20 years ago? Exactly!! Case and Point! 

Note 2
If you want to call it stealing, then we/y'all the Rec side stole it first, just slowly over the years. How? More recreational boats. The CFH industry has historically caught a more equal % of the quota. All the CFH industry is trying to do with AM 40 is get on a fair playing field.

Note 3
The simple truth is: we are all getting screwed by the government. Aren't we use to it? It does not/will not change overnight. Best resolution, quit bitching and blaming! Spend that effort writing a letter to your congressman. The squeaky wheel gets oiled! Our wheel hasn't squeaked loud enough yet. At tr end of the day we are all on the same team. 

Note 4
The reason I refer to y'all/we when speaking is because I recreationally fished for 12 years before jumping in the CFH game. Have been then about 10 years, with a 3 year hiatus. So I see both sides. I have recently left the CFH business or will this year, but I can still see both sides. So to think I'm one sided one way or the other would be foolish.


----------



## Tom Hilton

It's called America. If the demographics change due to supply/demand, then that is the American way. Confiscating our Public Trust Resource for the exclusive use of a few corporations is socialism, where the government picks the winners and the losers. THAT'S exactly what happened today.

Enjoy your moment boys, because it ain't gonna last.


----------



## Vail1919

So now I'm confused. It's not stealing or it is? If the CFH sector takes them it's stealing and if the Rec sector takes them it's their right? Sounds hypocritical to me. The fact is: we only fished 9 days this season for RS. FOR ALL THOSE WHO KEEP SAYING THE SAME THINGS QUIT WHINING AND TRY TO COMPREHEND A FEW FACTS: FEDERALLY PERMITTED BOATS can NOT fish in STATE waters for RED SNAPPER! From what I've read and seen on both sides Amend 40 may help CFH in the short term, maybe long term. It also may help Rec sector due to the amount of reporting that will come along with it, therefore we all will win. It also may hurt CFH industry especially if they bring back the larger TAC in years to come. It also may hurt Rec side if the "scientists" choose to claim overfishing per state waters. THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS: we don't know what is to happen yet. 

But to sit back and bitch and moan about businesses making smart business decisions for themselves and their families is crazy. BTW: these are small businesses not corporations!! So state the facts truthfully. Even the bigger business charter owners only have 2-3 boats. May be listed as an LLC for tax reasons but ok. 

Couple Suggestions: 1)state truth on here since your deceiving words are being read by some that do not know the truth. 2) be proactive in protecting your resource, spend time writing congressman rather than whining or misconstruing words that are written on here. 3) LEARN HOW TO FISH!!!! The Red Snapper is of mediocre table fare at best, so spend some time learning how and where to catch other fish. BTW, there alot to catch, because we spent 91 days catching fish other than RS, and came home every time with plenty. Lets be honest, catching Red Snapper is like catching bait, very easy to do, minor skill is involved. 

I took 2 hours and read through every comment and it truly sounds like teenage girls arguing over who gets the hot guy for prom. Reevaluate your position and read and listen and study facts as I have. I'm a recreational fisherman again so I have the same dog in this fight as all of you, but I know both sides and to work my ass off everyday teaching women and children how to catch a 12 inch Vermillion Snapper for 91 days while all the FL anglers just 5 miles away were bringing home 20lb snapper for 52 Days or whatever sucks. So we or I at least know both sides. 

DATA/Scientists are our enemy not each other.


----------



## LES KNIGHTEN

Burnt Drag said:


> Bobby, isn't this the same group who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars attempting to un-seat Steve Southard, a dedicated advocate for
> the fisherman?


 LopeAlong, I'm going have a little fun and briefly respond to your statement which is as follows  "We have expected litigation and welcome it. We have the precedents".
 In regards to "welcoming litigation", more likely than not there will be unexpected litigation. 
In respect to "We have the precedents." To my knowledge each time there has been litigation Federal Court has up held Statutory Law, being MSA, as precedents. In my opinion, other precedents that have been set by, including but not limited to, the majority of the Gulf Council in the decision making process involves: bias and prejudice; conflict of interests; disregard of pertinent parts of MSA; unfairness; lawfulness; unconstitutional legislation; violation of their own rules; intent to mislead or misrepresentation, including but not limited to, the use of the word "shall" and total disregard of statutory mandated law, mandating  "Reliable Data" pursuant to the MSA.
LopeAlong, there are other legal issues other than the ones listed in the above paragraph that may be litigated, to my knowledge none have been litigated. Are you sure you are looking forward in getting involved in possible litigating this matter?
LopeAlong, please explain and post a list of the precedents that you and the EDF, ect. have set.
Thanking you in advance for you response to this post


----------



## H2OMARK

So now we need a list of the permitted boats. Word of mouth travels a long way when coming to recommendations as well as negative publicity on on boards such as these. I've heard of several boats already that will be receiving some bad reviews.


----------



## southbound

So what is the next step for the CFH/Enviro zealots? Do you guys meet is some dark smoky back room with your new environmental pals and Roy Crabtree to see who gets how many pounds of fish??? Is that how this works??? I would take a long shower after that meeting.


----------



## hsiF deR

Vail1919 said:


> So now I'm confused. It's not stealing or it is? If the CFH sector takes them it's stealing and if the Rec sector takes them it's their right? Sounds hypocritical to me.


Why should anyone get special privilege? Put your critical thinking cap and really THINK about this for just a second.


----------



## markw4321

H2OMARK said:


> So now we need a list of the permitted boats. Word of mouth travels a long way when coming to recommendations as well as negative publicity on on boards such as these. I've heard of several boats already that will be receiving some bad reviews.


Let's not forget to recommend and support bait and tackle shops and boats that actually stood tall and went on record supporting recreational fisherman. Hotspots, burntdrags boat and outcast come to my mind specifically. I am sure there are more.


----------



## markw4321

H2OMARK said:


> So now we need a list of the permitted boats. Word of mouth travels a long way when coming to recommendations as well as negative publicity on on boards such as these. I've heard of several boats already that will be receiving some bad reviews.


Let's not forget to recommend and support bait and tackle shops and boats that actually stood talk and went on record supporting recreational fisherman. Hotspots, burntdrags charter aquaventure. and outcast come to my mind specifically. I am sure there are more.


----------



## Tom Hilton

The red snapper are a Public Trust Resource. That means they belong to ALL of us - recreational fishermen who fish on private vessels or for-hire vessels. These fish should have free and open access to ALL, but Sector Segregation provides EXCLUSIVE access to certain recreational fishermen while PROHIBITING access to those same fish for everyone else.

If the allocation was split based on what the for-hire boats actually caught, that would be one thing, but it wasn't. It was based on flawed data from years ago that really has bearing on today's fishery, giving an inordinate amount of the recreational quota to the for-hire sector. Where did these extra fish come from? Stolen from the private recs.

Get it? Got it? Good.


----------



## amarcafina

JCTide said:


> LopeAlong said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 3 year sunset provision was put in place to get us to state management which is years away from being ready. I wouldn't be so sure that we'll just roll over and play dead at the end of 2018.
> 
> So I've stolen these fish? That's not even remotely close to the truth and you know it. Your just recycling what Hilton has said. This does not affect the federal season in anyway. Didn't really think you could get smaller than a ZERO day season next year. The way I see it the states are stealing fish from me. I can't go harvest them. There's nothing fair and equitable about a TAC being caught in state waters that are off limits to me.
> 
> I've told all of you before this isn't going to make me a dime more money. It's going to let more people catch and keep a fish. Plain and simple.[/quote
> 
> Whatever...
> 
> 
> 
> Where in the hell do you get off stating "* The way I see it the states are stealing fish from Me " Did you grow these fish Ass H ..??? did you Own the water to catch them in ?? *Hell NO .. How about Farming your own fish then you can make that kind of STATEMENT
Click to expand...


----------



## JerseyDevil13

I just heard about the vote this morning and caught up on the forum, and it's unreal how similar this is to what happened with summer flounder up in New Jersey. That was also based off the commercial vs recreational side and size limits on fish you could keep and bag limits as well as season lenght. The end result was that many of the recreational anglers just decided that they weren't going to pay any attention to the season, limits or anything else and start keeping whatever flounder they caught whenever they caught them. They got tired of buying bait, tackle, gas, ice, beer, food, renting boats to fish in, etc and not being able to take any of the fish home that they were cacthing and traditionally could have kept in the past. They also got tired of going into the fish markets and seeing locally caught flounder for sale that measured the 14 inch commercial size limit, when the recreational limit was 20 inches. The reasoning went that there aren't that many enforcement officials out there and its relatively easy to get away with it, and they were right. Some estimates were that there are as many as 3 times the number of flounder being kept that are "illegal" than were legal according to the regs. I'm in maritime law enforcement myself and I can assure you, it's tough to catch a guy with a few fish hidden away, there are always bigger crimes to go after. Plus, its tough to look a guy in the eye and tell him he's wrong for keeping 2 flounder that were out of season or were too small when he's rented a house at the shore like he does every year and dumped thousands of dollars into the local economy to get them. 

So my point is this, I'm a recreational angler myself, but I fish for snapper in LA because that's where my friend and his boat are, and I'm not going to pick a side on this thread because I've enforced the law on both commercial and recreational folks. That being said, to the recreational anglers out there. If you want snappers to eat, do what you think you should. Civil disobedience has been out there for a heck of a lot longer than recreational or commercial fishing rights. Amercians are a remarkably resilient and stubborn bunch, it's why we're still here. I'm not saying that you should go out and catch and keep fish out of season, but I understand it if it hypothetically happens. The odds of you getting caught are slim, just be prepared, if you hypothetically put yourself in that position and get caught, to pay the price. Know the prize and know the consequences and make your own individual decision from there.

Under a Black Flag we shall sail.....


----------



## LopeAlong

Tom Hilton said:


> The red snapper are a Public Trust Resource. That means they belong to ALL of us - recreational fishermen who fish on private vessels or for-hire vessels. These fish should have free and open access to ALL, but Sector Segregation provides EXCLUSIVE access to certain recreational fishermen while PROHIBITING access to those same fish for everyone else.
> 
> If the allocation was split based on what the for-hire boats actually caught, that would be one thing, but it wasn't. It was based on flawed data from years ago that really has bearing on today's fishery, giving an inordinate amount of the recreational quota to the for-hire sector. Where did these extra fish come from? Stolen from the private recs.
> 
> Get it? Got it? Good.


Again your joking right? The states have reduced the federal access time and time again. Why do you keep ignoring that fact!!!! So tell me about how unfair it is to not be able to catch a fish when you can. If they're all recreational anglers then give the CFH's the same access as everyone else


----------



## Gator McKlusky

LopeAlong said:


> Again your joking right? The states have reduced the federal access time and time again. Why do you keep ignoring that fact!!!! So tell me about how unfair it is to not be able to catch a fish when you can. If they're all recreational anglers then give the CFH's the same access as everyone else


 
Charter Boat recreational anglers have open access to Florida State waters when the snapper season is open on Florida state permitted charter baots.


----------



## Matt Mcleod

Lopealong, holy crap this is not a hard concept but I suppose you don't want any facts to get in the way of the narrative you want everyone to believe. 

Let's try this again. The states have done absolutely NOTHING to exclude us permitted boats from fishing for red snapper in state waters! The federal government has!!!! The state of Florida would be happy, thrilled, elated and generally happy as hell for you to charter fish in state waters! 

I really don't understand how completely retarded you have to be to watch the federal government create a law specifically to keep you from fishing in state waters and then turn around and blame the states for it. 

For the life of me I can't get my mind around that.


----------



## LopeAlong

amarcafina said:


> JCTide said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where in the hell do you get off stating "* The way I see it the states are stealing fish from Me " Did you grow these fish Ass H ..??? did you Own the water to catch them in ?? *Hell NO .. How about Farming your own fish then you can make that kind of STATEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> Do I need to spell this out in crayon for you? I will if you want me to. State caught fish are subtracted from the entire quota. My customers are only allowed to fish federal waters. They are not allowed to fish in state waters after the federal has closed. Therefor the rest of the 43 days those fish are coming out of a number that I can't have access to. That's stealing.
> 
> 
> 
> Talk to me when you spend $15,000 of your own money every year to farm these fish
Click to expand...


----------



## markw4321

LopeAlong said:


> amarcafina said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do I need to spell this out in crayon for you? I will if you want me to. State caught fish are subtracted from the entire quota. My customers are only allowed to fish federal waters. They are not allowed to fish in state waters after the federal has closed. Therefor the rest of the 43 days those fish are coming out of a number that I can't have access to. That's stealing.
> 
> 
> 
> Talk to me when you spend $15,000 of your own money every year to farm these fish
> 
> 
> 
> You gents will be enjoying a bunch of chicken coops I personally deployed in the west laars area . that i wont have access to this year.
Click to expand...


----------



## LopeAlong

Matt Mcleod said:


> Let's try this again. The states have done absolutely NOTHING to exclude us permitted boats from fishing for red snapper in state waters! The federal government has!!!! The state of Florida would be happy, thrilled, elated and generally happy as hell for you to charter fish in state waters!
> 
> I really don't understand how completely retarded you have to be to watch the federal government create a law specifically to keep you from fishing in state waters and then turn around and blame the states for it.
> 
> For the life of me I can't get my mind around that.


 The feds created 30b when the states first started the noncompliance issue back in 2007. It was a tool to reduce the amount of fish caught by CFH operators much like removing captain and crew. The Gulf Council voted to resend 30b last year but the secretary of commerce did not uphold that idea.

Yes, Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama have all reduced the number of Federal fishing day, you cant argue that.

I sincerely thank you for my warm welcome. Ive been fishing in Florida waters for a very long time and renew my licenses every year in Aug.



Gator McKlusky said:


> Charter Boat recreational anglers have open access to Florida State waters when the snapper season is open on Florida state permitted charter baots.


 
Wrong! Both my boats are permitted to fish in florida waters. So why cant I catch them there? Oh yeah its that pesky Federal Permit holder thing that gets in the way


----------



## 192

Whose choice was it to purchase a Federal Permit? Who made the decision to establish the demarkation between State and Federal waters as it pertains to permit use? If you had not purchased a Federal Permit and fished in State waters, would your position remain the same?


----------



## Matt Mcleod

Ok this is pointless. Your goal is charter IFQ'S and you'll lie cheat and steal till you get them. Good luck.


----------



## Wharf Rat

Could someone please remind me what charter boat this azzhat LopeAlong runs or is affiliated with?


----------



## flounderslayerman

So it's the states fault that they see the positive economic impact that the fisherman represent to the economy and the feds don't. The states did the RIGHT thing by telling the feds to piss off when it came to their water's. It serves you right not being able to fish state waters. Since you have a fed permit stay your ass out there and out of state waters since we can't fish there. Keep drinking the fed kool-aid and it'll come back to haunt you. Karma can be a nasty bitch sometimes and I hope you get yours.


----------



## flounderslayerman

Wharf Rat said:


> Could someone please remind me what charter boat this azzhat LopeAlong runs or is affiliated with?


He owns and runs the Miss Brianna out of OB.


----------



## WW2

Sounds to me like these guys should not be able to stop and catch bait in state waters.


----------



## LopeAlong

grouper22 said:


> Whose choice was it to purchase a Federal Permit? Who made the decision to establish the demarkation between State and Federal waters as it pertains to permit use? If you had not purchased a Federal Permit and fished in State waters, would your position remain the same?


The federal governments choice. I fish all over the eastern gulf from south of destin to the west end of Dauphin island. All for something besides a red snapper

And the Liquid Therapy as well


----------



## tbaxl

Vail1919 said:


> So now I'm confused. It's not stealing or it is? If the CFH sector takes them it's stealing and if the Rec sector takes them it's their right? Sounds hypocritical to me. The fact is: we only fished 9 days this season for RS. FOR ALL THOSE WHO KEEP SAYING THE SAME THINGS QUIT WHINING AND TRY TO COMPREHEND A FEW FACTS: FEDERALLY PERMITTED BOATS can NOT fish in STATE waters for RED SNAPPER! From what I've read and seen on both sides Amend 40 may help CFH in the short term, maybe long term. It also may help Rec sector due to the amount of reporting that will come along with it, therefore we all will win. It also may hurt CFH industry especially if they bring back the larger TAC in years to come. It also may hurt Rec side if the "scientists" choose to claim overfishing per state waters. THE SIMPLE TRUTH IS: we don't know what is to happen yet.
> 
> But to sit back and bitch and moan about businesses making smart business decisions for themselves and their families is crazy. BTW: these are small businesses not corporations!! So state the facts truthfully. Even the bigger business charter owners only have 2-3 boats. May be listed as an LLC for tax reasons but ok.
> 
> Couple Suggestions: 1)state truth on here since your deceiving words are being read by some that do not know the truth. 2) be proactive in protecting your resource, spend time writing congressman rather than whining or misconstruing words that are written on here. 3) LEARN HOW TO FISH!!!! The Red Snapper is of mediocre table fare at best, so spend some time learning how and where to catch other fish. BTW, there alot to catch, because we spent 91 days catching fish other than RS, and came home every time with plenty. Lets be honest, catching Red Snapper is like catching bait, very easy to do, minor skill is involved.
> 
> I took 2 hours and read through every comment and it truly sounds like teenage girls arguing over who gets the hot guy for prom. Reevaluate your position and read and listen and study facts as I have. I'm a recreational fisherman again so I have the same dog in this fight as all of you, but I know both sides and to work my ass off everyday teaching women and children how to catch a 12 inch Vermillion Snapper for 91 days while all the FL anglers just 5 miles away were bringing home 20lb snapper for 52 Days or whatever sucks. So we or I at least know both sides.
> 
> DATA/Scientists are our enemy not each other.



Rec angler here, you are correct, ARS are a no brainier to catch thus most of the CFH fleet dearly loves to fish for them as it's easy to look like you know what you are doing. As far as Florida is concerned you CFH guys need to stop crying about them being non compliant as they have 9 miles to play with so great, I wish Bama had the same mileage. As for the CFH being conservation minded I not the ones I saw at work this summer. A friend put some private spots out about 15 years ago and we have always seen one or two charters there the last couple of years so the were found, no big deal. This year however after a couple ARS season we caught vermillion there, next trip out a charter was there and left as he saw us approaching, less vermillion, my buddy was out a few weeks later and another charter was leaving, he caught one or two my last trip, lots of snapper but no vermillion. My point is some of the guys exhaust a spot and move on to clean the next one like a virus, there fore my opinion is many of these guys arne't as good a steward as they would lead you to believe and they need ARS to be successful.


----------



## southbound

This is what Chris Blankenship had to say to a Rec Fisherman's e-mail from another site.

Chris Blankenship's response to me:

Mark,

Amendment 40 (Sector Separation) was approved by the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council on October 23, 2014. In conversations with members and judging from procedural votes it was clear that the votes on this issue were 8 for passage and 8 against with NOAA Fisheries Regional Administrator Roy Crabtree being the deciding vote. All five State Fishery representatives were united in opposition to Amendment 40. Feeling that the amendment would pass, the goal of the states was to implement a sunset provision to give us time to work out regional management. Crabtree indicated that he was voting for passage but that if one state would change their vote the he would break from the block of Council members that were voting together railroading implementation of Sector Separation to vote for the sunset provision. In order to secure the sunset provision we reluctantly agreed to support Amendment 40 resulting in a 10-7 vote with the three year sunset provision included. The options for the states were to either watch this amendment pass with no sunset and have to live with the separated sector forever, like we are doing now with the commercial fishery, or work out a compromise to place a sunset provision to give us the opportunity to implement regional management for all recreational sectors in the future. The State of Alabama feels that the best option to repair this broken federal management system is for the states to have regional control of the fishery in waters adjacent to their state, both in state and federal waters, for both charter and private recreational fishermen.

Like all the issues concerning red snapper and the federal government, there are no easy solutions. The State of Alabama, through the Marine Resources Division will continue to work diligently to fix this broken system. The Red Snapper Reporting System worked very well last year. We are in deep negotiations with NOAA Fisheries to use this data to improve and calibrate their data collection system. Alabama spearheaded an effort at this meeting to have the Science and Statistical Committee provide quota recommendations using a less conservative analysis of spawning potential ratio since this fishery is rebuilding faster than they projected. This will allow us to catch more pounds now, while still meeting the goals to rebuild by 2032. We continue with our fishery independent research work in our artificial reef zones that we feel will be instrumental in the new stock assessment. Now that Amendment 40 has passed, Amendment 28 concerning reallocation of portions of the quota from the commercial sector to the recreational sector is back on the table for discussion and action. All of these items will increase the amount of pounds available for the private recreational fishermen and hopefully get us a longer season while we work to make real changes through regional management and through changes to the Magnusson-Stevens Act in Congress in 2015.

Chris Blankenship, Director
Alabama Marine Resources Division
Dauphin Island Office 251-861-2882
Gulf Shores Office 251-968-7576
[email protected]

I appreciate at least his explanation. I'm hoping he stays on a course of fighting for us. This can't continue


----------



## scott44

southbound said:


> This is what Chris Blankenship had to say to a Rec Fisherman's e-mail from another site.
> 
> Chris Blankenship's response to me:
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Amendment 40 (Sector Separation) was approved by the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council on October 23, 2014. In conversations with members and judging from procedural votes it was clear that the votes on this issue were 8 for passage and 8 against with NOAA Fisheries Regional Administrator Roy Crabtree being the deciding vote. All five State Fishery representatives were united in opposition to Amendment 40. Feeling that the amendment would pass, the goal of the states was to implement a sunset provision to give us time to work out regional management. Crabtree indicated that he was voting for passage but that if one state would change their vote the he would break from the block of Council members that were voting together railroading implementation of Sector Separation to vote for the sunset provision. In order to secure the sunset provision we reluctantly agreed to support Amendment 40 resulting in a 10-7 vote with the three year sunset provision included. The options for the states were to either watch this amendment pass with no sunset and have to live with the separated sector forever, like we are doing now with the commercial fishery, or work out a compromise to place a sunset provision to give us the opportunity to implement regional management for all recreational sectors in the future. The State of Alabama feels that the best option to repair this broken federal management system is for the states to have regional control of the fishery in waters adjacent to their state, both in state and federal waters, for both charter and private recreational fishermen.
> 
> Like all the issues concerning red snapper and the federal government, there are no easy solutions. The State of Alabama, through the Marine Resources Division will continue to work diligently to fix this broken system. The Red Snapper Reporting System worked very well last year. We are in deep negotiations with NOAA Fisheries to use this data to improve and calibrate their data collection system. Alabama spearheaded an effort at this meeting to have the Science and Statistical Committee provide quota recommendations using a less conservative analysis of spawning potential ratio since this fishery is rebuilding faster than they projected. This will allow us to catch more pounds now, while still meeting the goals to rebuild by 2032. We continue with our fishery independent research work in our artificial reef zones that we feel will be instrumental in the new stock assessment. Now that Amendment 40 has passed, Amendment 28 concerning reallocation of portions of the quota from the commercial sector to the recreational sector is back on the table for discussion and action. All of these items will increase the amount of pounds available for the private recreational fishermen and hopefully get us a longer season while we work to make real changes through regional management and through changes to the Magnusson-Stevens Act in Congress in 2015.
> 
> Chris Blankenship, Director
> Alabama Marine Resources Division
> Dauphin Island Office 251-861-2882
> Gulf Shores Office 251-968-7576
> [email protected]
> 
> I appreciate at least his explanation. I'm hoping he stays on a course of fighting for us. This can't continue


Typical politician talk..."I voted for it to try and kill it." The next step is,"Sorry,I tried.It's not my fault just because I voted for it".


----------



## Skeeterdone

I know I am only one person but I continue to buy my license's every year. I feel I should pay my part in supporting what I myself take from our resources. After this Amendment passed I will no longer pay and will take the handout that Florida offers for the disabled people. And as far as charter boats go screw them. If I am am going out fishing anyone that was thinking of chartering, my boat will have an open seat or two!! I know it wont effect them much but I will do my part to screw them..


----------



## Skeeterdone

WW2 said:


> Sounds to me like these guys should not be able to stop and catch bait in state waters.


Sounds to me we should start blowing donuts around them while trying to get bait..


----------



## Kim

I could be wrong but.... all the spewing of hate and fish rage does nothing to resolve the situation except make us look kind of ignorant. Might be a good idea to stick with the facts and have a reasonable discussion. None of us have to agree with the opinions and beliefs of others and we can express that. A reasonable discourse will produce better results than a vulgar hateful rant or personal attack.


----------



## Chris V

Kim said:


> I could be wrong but.... all the spewing of hate and fish rage does nothing to resolve the situation except make us look kind of ignorant. Might be a good idea to stick with the facts and have a reasonable discussion. None of us have to agree with the opinions and beliefs of others and we can express that. A reasonable discourse will produce better results than a vulgar hateful rant or personal attack.



Now I have something to post on this topic.

^^^ I AGREE


----------



## tbaxl

Kim you are correct, but that is not nearly as much fun.


----------



## flounderslayerman

It's more fun to vent some anger at the guy who started this thread throwing the amendment 40 crap in our face boasting about it.


----------



## LopeAlong

flounderslayerman said:


> It's more fun to vent some anger at the guy who started this thread throwing the amendment 40 crap in our face boasting about it.


Who's boasting? Quote me one time where I boasted.


----------



## LopeAlong

Skeeterdone said:


> Sounds to me we should start blowing donuts around them while trying to get bait..


That's a great idea. And when one of my customers falls down and hurts themselves I'll know exactly who to send their lawyer after


----------



## flounderslayerman

You starting this thread throwing it in everbodys face knowing the reaction you'd get.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Chris V said:


> Now I have something to post on this topic.
> 
> ^^^ I AGREE


Would like to hear your personal position.


----------



## ssrs69camaro

Not boasting????


LopeAlong said:


> Are you reading the words you just wrote? The states decided to open seasons to which I couldn't take part in. Sucks having to take a spoonful of your medicine
> doesnt it





LopeAlong said:


> No it won't. The headboats rationed their fish all the way through September. Last I checked that would have been way after one sector reached it's quota.
> 
> Tom what happened? You said you had the votes. Where did you miscount





LopeAlong said:


> Who's boasting? Quote me one time where I boasted.


----------



## flounderslayerman

Gator McKlusky said:


> Would like to hear your personal position.


Him working at a tackle store that sells a lot of gear to the CFH guys should keep him silent. Not trying to offend you Chris. Just my opinion why and I don't blame you for it.


----------



## Skeeterdone

Small man syndrome?? Limpalong.. I don't even know you and I think you are a Richard!!


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Well given the Alabama dnr's vote yesterdsy, and the silence of the Alabama's governor's office I guess the sun does rise and set on Alabama's charter fleet.


----------



## LopeAlong

Don't know why. These towns weren't founded on 15 story condos and $10k a week beach house rentals. 50% of the revenue of the state of Alabama comes from south of interstate 10 due tourism.


----------



## Chris V

Gator McKlusky said:


> Would like to hear your personal position.


I've debated posting, but I've refrained for the sole reasoning that it can be taken out of context. I don't want anyone to think I lean one way or another. 

I just typed a novel and deleted the whole damn thing just to prevent this


----------



## LopeAlong

Chris V said:


> I've debated posting, but I've refrained for the sole reasoning that it can be taken out of context. I don't want anyone to think I lean one way or another.
> 
> I just typed a novel and deleted the whole damn thing just to prevent this


Smart man Chris.

I know I have the right to remain silent I just don't have the ability


----------



## Telum Pisces

I have not set foot in the gulf in 1.5 years. I have not been out in a boat to catch fish or dove in order to spearfish either. I've just about given up on the sport. That's what the enviros want anyway. It's just not worth my time anymore when 1-2 species are in season for any given trip. The fish are there. I dive, I see them!!!! But the cost of getting out there to catch my few fish just is not worth it. And we have not bought any seafood hardly either. Almost taken it out of our family meal plans other than what I can get from friends etc... 

I am almost done supporting this industry with my money!!!!! And I will never suggest anyone step foot on another charter in this program at all!!! It simply sickens me that I as a recreational angler can go and catch a fish if I pay a taxi driver yet, I can't catch it on my own boat. Still a recreational angler no matter how you stir it.


----------



## Chris V

There's more than 1-2 species. There is always more than 1-2 and its always worth the trip. It's a matter of trying different things. I just have to keep educating my customers how to catch species they've been missing out on.


----------



## Chris V

I was not in support of amendment 40. I was in support of a better system altogether but it did not exist. 

What would've happened next season if amendment 40 didn't pass? Tom Hilton, Capt Kelly, whoever wants to answer this because I don't know the answer. No utopian ideas either, let's here some shit that could've been probable.

Don't take this out of context either, I'm asking seriously.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Chris V said:


> There's more than 1-2 species. There is always more than 1-2 and its always worth the trip. It's a matter of trying different things. I just have to keep educating my customers how to catch species they've been missing out on.


That's very optimistic and I like it. But have a sick feeling watching the cfa machine and edf work because snapper won't be enough.

Bobby 

What are you coming after next for a percentage cut. AJ, Gag, mingo, or trigger? Save the pelagics for last I assume?


----------



## hsiF deR

Chris V said:


> I was not in support of amendment 40. I was in support of a better system altogether but it did not exist.
> 
> What would've happened next season if amendment 40 didn't pass? Tom Hilton, Capt Kelly, whoever wants to answer this because I don't know the answer. No utopian ideas either, let's here some shit that could've been probable.
> 
> Don't take this out of context either, I'm asking seriously.


What's wrong with leaving it alone? 
What was wrong with demanding actual data to base regulations off of?
What's wrong with allowing all anglers to fish based of their recreational license?
...any of these probable?


----------



## Chris V

Alabama demanded actual data from its licensed anglers and will use its data for regional management should it see light.

I said probable. The Feds "leaving it alone" is NOT probable. We would have another week or less season. Look over the last several years. It's been less and less and less and....

Like I said, not in support of sector separation, but leave it alone is not the way of an enviro-friendly fisheries management system and they haven't mandated that us recreational fisherman record/report out catches. Frankly I don't think they care what the actual numbers are.


----------



## SaltAddict

When our (recreational) access to Red Snapper is restricted, causing us to target these "other" species...
What happens to the stock of these "other" species?

I'm just a simple spear fisherman, but I see what's down there. This whole thing is (in my humble opinion) idiotic. Red Snapper are the most prolific species on 95% of the marks I dive. Except of course during the very short "derby" season one is allowed to keep them. During the season it is a ghost town down there. I presume the fish fear for their lives from all the lead dropped on them.


----------



## Chris V

Those species get caught up in the same game. I don't know what else to say about it. I've always tried to target different fish and not focus hard on getting a "limit" of any particular one. A mixed box of rational take is better IMO than a limit of one or two species. I think less pressure all around is better than hammering one fish like red snapper and therefore creating a spotlight on the species for NMFS.


----------



## SaltAddict

Chris, I agree 100%. It just aggravates me to no end when I have to push a Red snapper (or 5) out of my way so I can get a shot on a black snapper. 
I also agree 1000% with your statement "frankly I don't think they care what the actual numbers are."


----------



## Burnt Drag

SaltAddict said:


> Chris, I agree 100%. It just aggravates me to no end when I have to push a Red snapper (or 5) out of my way so I can get a shot on a black snapper.
> I also agree 1000% with your statement "frankly I don't think they care what the actual numbers are."


We'll all come to discover what the real motive was in S.S. and you and Chris are most astute to asert that "They don't care what the actual numbers are..." 
Because... the numbers kept getting in the way of the agenda. :whistling:


----------



## guam_bomb80

I haven't posted in over a year, but have kept current with the fishing issues in Florida since I've been gone. It sickens me that recreational anglers and charter boat captains (40 supporters) can't get on the same page. I don't see a plus here for anyone. If it keeps up, nobody will win the fight and everyone's right (privilege) will be taken away. When it comes down to it, everyone on the water, charter guest or private boat is a recreational angler. Stop bitching among yourselves. If it bothers you that much stop fishing. For the rest of you, put a smile on your face and enjoy the time on the water with your friends and family catching any fish while you still can. Be sure to call your congressman no matter what way you lean. Without your input, your elected officials will go with the deeper pockets. Just my 2 cents from Colorado Springs......


----------



## amarcafina

LopeAlong said:


> Again your joking right? The states have reduced the federal access time and time again. Why do you keep ignoring that fact!!!! So tell me about how unfair it is to not be able to catch a fish when you can. If they're all recreational anglers then give the CFH's the same access as everyone else


Well then , Maybe if We could Run 2 -3 Trip *each day of Federal Snapper Season like you Charter Boys Can Do then it would FAIR !!!! That's why our combined Quota is reach so EARLY !!!

:whistling: *


----------



## Tom Hilton

Chris V said:


> I was not in support of amendment 40. I was in support of a better system altogether but it did not exist.
> 
> What would've happened next season if amendment 40 didn't pass? Tom Hilton, Capt Kelly, whoever wants to answer this because I don't know the answer. No utopian ideas either, let's here some shit that could've been probable.
> 
> Don't take this out of context either, I'm asking seriously.


Chris - I think the question you are asking is not what would have happened next season without AM 40, but what would happen if a better system was put into place. It's obvious what would have happened next year - basically no snapper season at all.

The current system has been corrupted by big $$ from The Environmental Defense Fund, as well as their undue influence on the Gulf Council/NMFS. That needs to change, and I believe it will by actions currently underway behind the scenes.

A prime example was the Sector Separation Workshop held 4 years ago - it was billed as a Gulf Council function but was in reality designed, orchestrated, and controlled by EDF's Whitney Tomes. The OIG did an investigation into how one stakeholder (EDF) was given unfair treatment and advantage over other stakeholders and although they didn't find any laws that were broken, there were several serious ethical violations that occurred. Steve Bortone resigned rather than comply with the requirements stemming from the results of that investigation. Although the investigation showed that EDF exerted way too much undue influence on our fisheries managers, NOTHING has changed. That needs to change, and I believe it will.

The way that the Gulf Council members are appointed needs to be changed, for one thing - the way it is set up now, Roy Crabtree, as the designated rep for the Secretary of Commerce, makes the decision. If you don't tow the company line while serving on Council, you are replaced with someone who will. The votes are stacked here, as they are on the various APs, to ensure the outcome before the vote is even taken. That needs to change.

Conduct Rules for Members of Regional Fishery Management Councils - 3 
*FINANCIAL CONFLICTS OF INTERESTS *​
*Basic Rule. *Generally, you are barred from participating personally and substantially in any matter as a Council member that will have a direct and predictable effect on your financial interests, or on the financial interests of your spouse, minor children, or general partners; or on an organization in which you serve as an officer, director, trustee, general partner, or employee; or on a person or entity with which you have an arrangement regarding future employment or are negotiating for future employment. 

NMFS legal has tweaked this very simple concept of conflict of interest so that it skirts the intention of the rule. The Gulf Council members who own charter operations (Johnny Greene and Pam Dana) are sure to benefit financially personally from the implementation of AM 40, and should have been required to recuse themselves from voting. I don't believe this would hold up in court as it clearly violates what is a commonly held standard regulating the way voting is done by officials in power.

The way that the NMFS gathers its data has been designed to produce predetermined results, such as Sector Separation and ultimately recreational IFQs. Now that they have their foot in the door with Sector Separation, look for the upcoming cries to prevent a "derby fishery" in the for-hire sector. Safety at sea, dangerous derby conditions, and other excuses will be forthcoming to try to justify the implementation of IFQs for the for-hire sector. If IFQs are approved, that will also not be enough, and they will cite the need for inter-sector trading with the commercial fat cats. Don't believe me? Wait and see - it's surely coming.

Your Alabama DNR is on the right track by wresting control of the data away from the feds' by implementing their own data collection programs. Their mandatory red snapper reporting system (modeled after my OFS Permit Plan BTW) is a giant step in the right direction. They used more modern methods of collecting the effort/landings data which showed that the NMFS' method of data collection (which was never designed for the purpose it is now serving) overestimated Alabama recreational effort/landings by a factor of 2.5. Alabama DNR also is doing their own assessment (or "estimation" as Sean Powers described it) of the red snapper swimming in the AL reefing areas. Initial results showed that there may be 20 TIMES the number of red snapper in the reefing zones than NMFS acknowledged to be in the ENTIRE Gulf. However, at the presentation given Tuesday morning, Mr. Powers stated that the reefing zones held about 30-45% of the eastern Gulf's population of red snapper. Wow. That's a HUGE reversal from what their preliminary results showed - about a 99% reduction in fish numbers in the AL reefing areas from the preliminary results. Apparently their data results were affected by some unknown factor. What could that be? Good question, and one that you boys from Alabama should be asking Mr. Blankenship, Mr. Anson, and Mr. Powers themselves to explain the discrepancy.

As you know, all 3 AL reps on the GC voted for AM 40 - Mr. Anson did so reluctantly stating the case for his position by tying it to a sunset provision that would evolve into a regional management scenario where ALL Gulf fishermen are given the same opportunities to access our fish. I can only hope that Mr. Anson and other members of the Council will hold true to this concept and not kowtow to the pressure when it comes up in 3 years. 

The basis of AM is to establish different allocations for the for-hire and private rec fishermen. The problem is that they don't have the necessary, accurate data from which to make these allocation decisions and is one of my major complaints about it. Their preferred alternative is to give the for-hire sector something like 40-44% of the rec fish, when the latest data shows that they have been landing 25-33% of the fish. Where are these extra fish coming from? Your recreational customers who shop at Sam's and all of the rest of the private recs in the Gulf - I believe it is felony theft, especially if these fish are converted into private commodities via Catch Shares. If they want to split the rec sector, then at least do it based on viable numbers. They did this up in the NE with an EDF front group The Cape Cod Hook and Line Commercial Fisherman's Association, giving them an inordinate amount of the quota that they didn't deserve, as payment for their services rendered in pushing for Catch Shares for the Environmental Defense Fund. John Pappalardo was the head of the "Hookers" as they called them and was also serving on the NEFMC and he voted on this allocation decision - ANOTHER direct conflict of interest. Now it seems that history is repeating itself here in the Gulf.

The bottom line is this; the system needs to be overhauled on many of its key foundations. The key is the control of the data, and the NMFS has clearly failed miserably in improving its data collection systems by January 1 2009 as mandated by Congress. I believe that if accurate, viable data was provided in a clear, transparent process, that none of these shenanigans would be going on. The data would most likely show, as Dr. Shipp has stated repeatedly, that we ALL should be fishing 6 to 8 months without even putting a dent in the red snapper population. The NMFS obviously doesn't want that to happen, so it is up to the states to make it happen - probably by litigation.

Say Hi to Mike for me Chris.
Thanks,
Tom Hilton


----------



## Chris V

Thanks for the reply Tom. 

I did mean it the way I asked and the answer is obvious that we would have had zero days or close to it. Regional management is the solution, not sector separation, but I'm afraid its just not going to happen soon enough.


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## LopeAlong

Chris V said:


> I was not in support of amendment 40. I was in support of a better system altogether but it did not exist.
> 
> What would've happened next season if amendment 40 didn't pass? Tom Hilton, Capt Kelly, whoever wants to answer this because I don't know the answer. No utopian ideas either, let's here some shit that could've been probable.
> 
> Don't take this out of context either, I'm asking seriously.


Chris, NMFS says the states are catching up the entire TAC in state waters. That means their catching the 5.39mil pounds in state waters. Status quo means the 2015 season would have been smaller than the 2014 season. Now that we're split I'm pretty sure that the states are gonna still catch the 5mil pounds which will be more than the 3 mil the recs got allotted. Now the CFH community will be able to go fish.


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## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> Chris, NMFS says the states are catching up the entire TAC in state waters. That means their catching the 5.39mil pounds in state waters. Status quo means the 2015 season would have been smaller than the 2014 season. Now that we're split I'm pretty sure that the states are gonna still catch the 5mil pounds which will be more than the 3 mil the recs got allotted. Now the CFH community will be able to go fish.


You're even stupider then you sound if you actually believe the numbers the feds feed you.


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## Kim

Lopealong, your last post was interesting and correct me if I'm not understanding it correctly. With the separation, the recreational anglers are going to over fish the TAC by as much as 2 million pounds but the CFH sector will still be able to catch their IFQ's/quota or what ever it being called.

So the recreational guys will reduce the sustainability level of the stocks and it will be ok for the CFH guys to come in and get their "share" further reducing the levels of stock, further inhibiting the species level of sustainability. Does that mean that the CFH sector is willing to further endanger the recovery of the species even though it was supposed to help sustainability with accountability of fish caught?

Talk about confusing, no wonder this whole situation is in the condition it's in. To this date I have yet to see where one of the CFH guys will step up to the plate and just say "It's all about the money and I want to make as much as I possibly can from a public resource."


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## tbaxl

LopeAlong said:


> Chris, NMFS says the states are catching up the entire TAC in state waters. That means their catching the 5.39mil pounds in state waters. Status quo means the 2015 season would have been smaller than the 2014 season. Now that we're split I'm pretty sure that the states are gonna still catch the 5mil pounds which will be more than the 3 mil the recs got allotted. Now the CFH community will be able to go fish.


Lope, 
Question where is the proof you cite for states catching over the allotment. Answer, there is none, it is a wild guess and you know it and do not sit there and tell us TX and LA are doing all the damage, they have no better ARS waters than Alabama. We/state proved that the NMFS are way off. We can all whine and complain about the situation but truth is you guys bolted from your friends and your friends have always been there for the CFH when things are slow, our feelings are hurt no more no less, but you guys have made a deal with the devil and the devil is in the details. But again you know darn well there are a few private spots within three of the Bama coast but the fish are by and large juveniles and small and the same can be said for the other states as well. 
I am done with the subject, from here on I am letting my wallet handle all ARS matters and the legal issues which will follow. And if there are no legal issues to follow, CCA and RFA can expect to never see another check from me.


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## SnapperSlapper

I don't have a solution, but I'm waving the white flag. I'm selling my boat and my gear. And I'm done with Orange Beach. I'm not going to spend a dime where I'm not wanted. The charter boats and tourists from Arkansas, Tennessee, etc. can have it.


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## LopeAlong

What's scary to think the ARS is a payback fish now and when the private recs grossly overfish their TAC what the secretary of commerce is gonna be forced into doing. Similar along the same lines as states setting their own drinking age but only receive funding for dot if it's 21.


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## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> What's scary to think the ARS is a payback fish now and when the private recs grossly overfish their TAC what the secretary of commerce is gonna be forced into doing. Similar along the same lines as states setting their own drinking age but only receive funding for dot if it's 21.


The thing is there's no proof it's ever been over fished to begin with. Nothing close to accurate anyway. AL already proved the numbers were grossly over inflated.


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## AndyS

SnapperSlapper said:


> I don't have a solution, but I'm waving the white flag. I'm selling my boat and my gear. And I'm done with Orange Beach. I'm not going to spend a dime where I'm not wanted. The charter boats and tourists from Arkansas, Tennessee, etc. can have it.


I might just start following charter boats around in Fed waters ... anchoring up & shark fishing!


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## Chris V

SnapperSlapper said:


> I don't have a solution, but I'm waving the white flag. I'm selling my boat and my gear. And I'm done with Orange Beach. I'm not going to spend a dime where I'm not wanted. The charter boats and tourists from Arkansas, Tennessee, etc. can have it.


 How did you come to the conclusion Orange Beach doesn't want you? Because a few OB charter boat operators were in support of this along with many others from other states and home ports? You can't recreationally fish out of Orange Beach because of this?


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## SnapperSlapper

The state voted for it, regardless of their rationale. Orange Beach voted for it by omission. There was to my knowledge not a single entity from the orange beach community other than a few lone recreational anglers that spoke out or fought against a40. The old saying "if you aren't for us you are against us" seems appropriate. 

Frankly I'm just sick of this mess. I'm out.


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## scott44

tbaxl said:


> Lope,
> Question where is the proof you cite for states catching over the allotment. Answer, there is none, it is a wild guess and you know it and do not sit there and tell us TX and LA are doing all the damage, they have no better ARS waters than Alabama. We/state proved that the NMFS are way off. We can all whine and complain about the situation but truth is you guys bolted from your friends and your friends have always been there for the CFH when things are slow, our feelings are hurt no more no less, but you guys have made a deal with the devil and the devil is in the details. But again you know darn well there are a few private spots within three of the Bama coast but the fish are by and large juveniles and small and the same can be said for the other states as well.
> I am done with the subject, from here on I am letting my wallet handle all ARS matters and the legal issues which will follow. And if there are no legal issues to follow, CCA and RFA can expect to never see another check from me.


Who do ya send money to exactly and all I'm doing is $50? I don't snapper fish but I love to bitch and cant till I pay for it.Wrong is wrong though.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Chris V said:


> How did you come to the conclusion Orange Beach doesn't want you? Because a few OB charter boat operators were in support of this along with many others from other states and home ports? You can't recreationally fish out of Orange Beach because of this?


The sob mayor of Orange beach spoke before the council on Wednesday. Stating that he was a recreational fisherman and that was for fun. But that the charter fleet needed it for their families.
What about the families of the bait and tackle stores and marine engine shops, and trailer builders in Alabama?

....if I had a boat in dry storage at Zekes I would move it...don't know what those people are thinking. Most are probably from out of town and don't even know what's happened to them.


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## scott44

Gator McKlusky said:


> The sob mayor of Orange beach spoke before the council on Wednesday. Stating that he was a recreational fisherman and that was for fun. But that the charter fleet needed it for their families.
> What about the families of the bait and tackle stores and marine engine shops, and trailer builders in Alabama?
> 
> ....if I had a boat in dry storage at Zekes I would move it...don't know what those people are thinking. Most are probably from out of town and don't even know what's happened to them.


I don't recall adopting their family...they need a job IMO


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## Gator McKlusky

LopeAlong said:


> What's scary to think the ARS is a payback fish now and when the private recs grossly overfish their TAC what the secretary of commerce is gonna be forced into doing. Similar along the same lines as states setting their own drinking age but only receive funding for dot if it's 21.


Yea I figured you all would head their next. Shut down state water fishing for snapper because the sec of commerce just has to do it...lmao


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## Chris V

SnapperSlapper said:


> Orange Beach voted for it by omission. There was to my knowledge not a single entity from the orange beach community other than a few lone recreational anglers that spoke out or fought against a40.


More than a few but not a ton. How many recreational anglers from other states have attended meetings? Its been a scant few all around regardless of what state they originate. You better believe the CFH and commercial guys are there every meeting though. 

Don't let me be taken in the wrong way. Trust me, I'm aggravated beyond belief. My job relies solely on a healthy recreational fishery and the private boat owner makes up most of my business. But to say Orange Beach voted for this in any way is incorrect. The mayor may have said what he said, but the town DOES NOT WANT THIS!


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## Chris V

Come spend a few days in our tackle shop over the next week and see how locals are red-faced angry. I've had to deal with so much bitching in here its not even funny.


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## SnapperSlapper

I stand by what I said before and my feelings haven't changed. You say Orange Beach doesn't like a40. But the vast majority of people that represented "orange beach" at the meetings sure where in favor of it. Frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. The most effective way to express feelings in almost any situation is with a wallet. The marinas, boat and motor manufacturers, retail establishments, restaurants, etc. have not provided a bit of meaningful support for the private recreational fisherman in this mess. So I'm done supporting them. I'm definitely no high roller, and many will laugh at such a small amount of money making any kind of impact. But I'm gonna to take the $12k or so I spend each year on saltwater fishing and put it somewhere else.


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## scott44

Chris V said:


> Come spend a few days in our tackle shop over the next week and see how locals are red-faced angry. I've had to deal with so much bitching in here its not even funny.


Thats just the initial shock,it wont be long no one will say a word..or buy much.


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## Chris V

I look at it like this though and not for sake of argument as much as comparison:

This passed by council members from all gulf states including a 3-4 vote in favor by FL council members. The local businesses of those towns obviously didn't do enough to support the rec guys either. This ball was rolling one way or another in some from or another. The difference was we had a mayor who was dumb enough to think he could speak for all of us and spoke a very short-sighted comment. Just unfortunate. 

The only OB representatives that spoke in favor were CFH operators and our Mayor who I now question as to motive for such.

Not arguing, just saying. The small businesses of OB including ours will feel a sting from this for sure and our voice didn't matter


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## Chris V

scott44 said:


> Thats just the initial shock,it wont be long no one will say a word..or buy much.


 Luckily there are plenty who fish for other things. Why the smily face at such a comment?


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## Skeeterdone

SnapperSlapper said:


> I stand by what I said before and my feelings haven't changed. You say Orange Beach doesn't like a40. But the vast majority of people that represented "orange beach" at the meetings sure where in favor of it. Frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. The most effective way to express feelings in almost any situation is with a wallet. The marinas, boat and motor manufacturers, retail establishments, restaurants, etc. have not provided a bit of meaningful support for the private recreational fisherman in this mess. So I'm done supporting them. I'm definitely no high roller, and many will laugh at such a small amount of money making any kind of impact. But I'm gonna to take the $12k or so I spend each year on saltwater fishing and put it somewhere else.


I'm with ya!! Screw the locals that support it! Hope the tourist support their business on the off season!


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## scott44

SnapperSlapper said:


> I stand by what I said before and my feelings haven't changed. You say Orange Beach doesn't like a40. But the vast majority of people that represented "orange beach" at the meetings sure where in favor of it. Frankly I'm tired of arguing over it. The most effective way to express feelings in almost any situation is with a wallet. The marinas, boat and motor manufacturers, retail establishments, restaurants, etc. have not provided a bit of meaningful support for the private recreational fisherman in this mess. So I'm done supporting them. I'm definitely no high roller, and many will laugh at such a small amount of money making any kind of impact. But I'm gonna to take the $12k or so I spend each year on saltwater fishing and put it somewhere else.


Truth^..gotta make their fat asses hungry before they get it.


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## Tom Hilton

Chris V said:


> More than a few but not a ton. How many recreational anglers from other states have attended meetings? Its been a scant few all around regardless of what state they originate. You better believe the CFH and commercial guys are there every meeting though.
> 
> Don't let me be taken in the wrong way. Trust me, I'm aggravated beyond belief. My job relies solely on a healthy recreational fishery and the private boat owner makes up most of my business. But to say Orange Beach voted for this in any way is incorrect. The mayor may have said what he said, but the town DOES NOT WANT THIS!


Chris
Y'all need to show up in force at the OB City Council meetings and voice your displeasure at the Mayor speaking for the council and city in favor of a action that will negatively impact your citizens and community as a whole.


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## Chris V

Tom Hilton said:


> Chris
> Y'all need to show up in force at the OB City Council meetings and voice your displeasure at the Mayor speaking for the council and city in favor of a action that will negatively impact your citizens and community as a whole.


You better believe I will. I don't give a shit where I am or what I'm doing. He is going to know how pissed off I am. Regardless of my stance on any of this, he had absolutely no GD business speaking his opinion on something like this. He is a direct representation of our town and he blew it big time if you ask me. Having an opinion is one thing, but saying something as biased as this without any fear or thought of what image it could bring to our town is reckless. What an asshole. Either he was pushed into such a comment or he is really that ignorant as to how the F-ing clock works

Scott44. Still curious as to why the smily face attached to a comment of poor business for my store.


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## scott44

Chris V said:


> Luckily there are plenty who fish for other things. Why the smily face at such a comment?


Why wouldnt ya smile? Money is the only thing they understand.Seems to me tackle stores are trying to play both sides so get a buck.


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## flounderslayerman

If I was a tackle store owner I would to tell the CFH guys they aren't welcome in my store. Yes it would cause a small loss of income but it's about standing up for what's right. I doubt the store owners have the balls to do something like standing up for private rec. Even though they're the bigger part of their income.


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## Candy

Don't remember hearing anyone from tackle shops speaking on behalf of their customers last Thursday at the GC meeting. Didn't see any dive shop owners there either. Not one boat manufacturer or retailer there to stand up for their customers either. Most shocking was how few private rec guys showed up! Mobile is right down the road! 

Did hear Kennith Haddad, who now represents the American Sportfish Assoc, say he could support SS as long as it was passed with a sunset clause! My jaw almost broke when it hit the floor!


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## Chris V

I'll tell you why I wouldn't smile. Because I have catered to private boaters in our area for half of my life. Because I have taught countless people how to make more of their day offshore year after year of going through these ridiculous seasons. Because I have answered questions, given numbers to, lended tackle to and gone out of my way to help members of this forum for a long time. Because I've gone the extra step to help new boaters and fishermen get ahead of the curve unlike many other shops. Because our shop isn't "they" and there are still people here who depend on good business to pay their bills.

Slower business a byproduct of this bullshit? Most likely. For those like us who aren't in favor but who's emails and comments were ignored, there's not a damn thing to smile about.

I respect anyone's opinions, but smiling about slower business for someone like me who has helped an untold number of anglers?


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## scott44

Chris V said:


> I'll tell you why I wouldn't smile. Because I have catered to private boaters in our area for half of my life. Because I have taught countless people how to make more of their day offshore year after year of going through these ridiculous seasons. Because I have answered questions, given numbers to, lended tackle to and gone out of my way to help members of this forum for a long time. Because I've gone the extra step to help new boaters and fishermen get ahead of the curve unlike many other shops. Because our shop isn't "they" and there are still people here who depend on good business to pay their bills.
> 
> Slower business a byproduct of this bullshit? Most likely. For those like us who aren't in favor but who's emails and comments were ignored, there's not a damn thing to smile about.
> 
> I respect anyone's opinions, but smiling about slower business for someone like me who has helped an untold number of anglers?


 That was my bad Chris V.It just pisses me off to see money get involved in anything but yet it's involved in everything.I don't wish ya any bad but money is the whole deal.


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## sail7seas

Hey Chris, not surprising at all that the mayor would voice his opinion that is not representative of Orange Beach. Look at the school system he pushed that he said the people of Orange Beach were for. He has no business commenting on the sector separation crap.


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## Chris V

There's a lot of emotion involved here for those of us who build our life around the gulf. I've let it get to me and I'm just going back to reading for a bit.

Scott44, I appreciate your reply


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## markw4321

Candy said:


> Don't remember hearing anyone from tackle shops speaking on behalf of their customers last Thursday at the GC meeting. Didn't see any dive shop owners there either. Not one boat manufacturer or retailer there to stand up for their customers either. Most shocking was how few private rec guys showed up! Mobile is right down the road!
> 
> Did hear Kennith Haddad, who now represents the American Sportfish Assoc, say he could support SS as long as it was passed with a sunset clause! My jaw almost broke when it hit the floor!


Yes. The asa reps comments about supporting 40 with a sunset came in response to a question,from Roy after his comment period where he the asa rep stated he did.not support it. The asa rep seemed to be caught off guard with Roy's question to him asking him if he could support a40 with a sunset? Then the asa rep stumbled a bit and answered that he could support a40 with a sunset. I have been wondering since then if the asa rep regretted his answer,because.you could almost sense when Roy got the answer out of him that Roy was thinking "yes" I just got the check in the box I needed to be able to tell my noaa leadership and anyone in congress that a40 was supported by the asa..... I remember thinking at that moment dude shut your.mouth you can't be speaking for the people.


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## Candy

It will be interesting to see if Kenneth Haddad keeps his job at ASA. You know their advocacy group is called "Keep America Fishing". I've sent them plenty of money over the years but somehow, I doubt I'll answer the call the next time.

They should send out a MASS e-mail to everyone who has ever given them a dime telling them that Kenneth Haddad has been fired for betraying the fishing public.

IF he keeps his job after that performance, ASA doesn't deserve any support from the fishing public and they certainly will never get another dime from me.


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## markw4321

Anyone got an email address for asa that they actually read email at?


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## Candy

Don't know if they read their mail or not but, here is the Address: 
http://keepamericafishing.org/contact-us/#.VExeE_nF-fs 

Here is the message I sent them: 

I attended the Gulf Council Public Comment session on Amendment 40, Sector Separation and was stunned to here your ASA representative, Kenneth Haddad, say that he could support sector separation if they had a sunshine clause. Sector Separation has privitzed 75% of the Federal waters of the Gulf of Mexico Red Snapper fishery. Thanks for Keeping America Fishing...as long as they go on a charter boat! 

Does Kenneth still work for ASA? If so, you'll never get another dime from me.


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## SnapperSlapper

Bobby, I have a solution for your problem with fishing Florida state waters with a fed permit on your big boats. Buy this, don't put a federal permit on it, and run four person 4-6 hour charters in Florida state waters. Put an inflatable life raft on top of the hard top and you will be good. It has a toilet, fresh water, and a sink on it. Buy this and then you can fish both federal waters and state waters. I can't fish federal waters, and both my truck loads of chicken coops are there and I don't have spots in a Florida waters. And since the mayor of Orange Beach said he wanted you guys to fish and not us, you may as well have all the boats here.

http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f50/2004-robalo-225-w-2005-yamaha-f225-441545/


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## markw4321

Thanks


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## markw4321

SnapperSlapper said:


> Bobby, I have a solution for your problem with fishing Florida state waters with a fed permit on your big boats. Buy this, don't put a federal permit on it, and run four person 4-6 hour charters in Florida state waters. Put an inflatable life raft on top of the hard top and you will be good. It has a toilet, fresh water, and a sink on it. Buy this and then you can fish both federal waters and state waters. I can't fish federal waters, and both my truck loads of chicken coops are there and I don't have spots in a Florida waters. And since the mayor of Orange Beach said he wanted you guys to fish and not us, you may as well have all the boats here.
> 
> http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f50/2004-robalo-225-w-2005-yamaha-f225-441545/


Send a copy to the ob mayor's office maybe he will buy it.


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## SnapperSlapper

Do you guys remember the Orange Beach Red Snapper World Championship? It was organized by the Orange Beach charter fleet. Tony Kennon was the president/coordinator for a year or two I remember. But he isn't biased and in the pocket of the Orange Beach charter fleet. Just a coincidence.


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## The LaJess II

Candy & Mark 
I'm pretty sure there was a rep for Keep America Fishing first day of testimony. I may be mistaken. I will check to see.

Mark, I was with you on what you said about he needs to just be quite and not say another word. 

I might be wrong on this but I don't think so. But the reason am 40 got pushed was to get it implemented before reauthorization of MSA. If I remember correctly doesn't the reauthorization disallow sector separation? They wanted this before Nov election.

Hopefully litigation will bring a injunction until a judge can rule.


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## Candy

La Jess, yes, his name was Kenneth Haddad. He started talking as if their position was against SS but ended with - he could live with sector separation as long as it was passed with a sunset clause.

It's much harder to end a program after it's been in effect for 3 years.


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## The LaJess II

Candy wow, I did not put two and two together until now. I missed that Kenneth was speaking for ASA and Keep America Fishing. Thanks Candy.


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## amarcafina

LopeAlong said:


> Chris, NMFS says the states are catching up the entire TAC in state waters. That means their catching the 5.39mil pounds in state waters. Status quo means the 2015 season would have been smaller than the 2014 season. Now that we're split I'm pretty sure that the states are gonna still catch the 5mil pounds which will be more than the 3 mil the recs got allotted. Now the CFH community will be able to go fish.


Another Mistake your making by Quoting NMFS .. Because they have NO Idea what the Catch is on the Private sector.. They have Never had a reporting system in place that would give them any Clue as what has been caught .. That's the problem with All of this .. They have been Assuming all these years and we all know what that means . "


----------



## Burnt Drag

Candy said:


> La Jess, yes, his name was Kenneth Haddad. He started talking as if their position was against SS but ended with - he could live with sector separation as long as it was passed with a sunset clause.
> 
> It's much harder to end a program after it's been in effect for 3 years.


I think you nailed that. Reagan or some other wise man said, "There's nothing quite as permanant as a temporary tax."


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## captaindye251

Twas Milton Friedman I do believe


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## Realtor

SSSSooooo,

Who can fish for Red Snapper when and where???


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## Tom Hilton

The private recs spend probably $10 at tackle stores such as Sam's for every $1 a charter guy spends - this decision by the Gulf Council is going to hit coastal businesses that depend on red snapper very hard - even harder after they expand it to all other offshore species.

Now that they have sector separation in place, start to look for the complaints from the charter guys how they are fishing a dangerous derby fishery, with safety at sea a major concern. Also, the threat of state water fishing catching ALL of the rec quota will continue to be a major propaganda cry - ALL complaints designed to justify implementation of Catch Shares/IFQs, then inter-sector trading with the commercial sector.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

amarcafina said:


> Another Mistake your making by Quoting NMFS .. Because they have NO Idea what the Catch is on the Private sector.. They have Never had a reporting system in place that would give them any Clue as what has been caught .. That's the problem with All of this .. They have been Assuming all these years and we all know what that means . "


He ain't stupid it's just propaganda. He knows that nmfs numbers are bogus and agenda driven. If there is a take away it s that cfa members, Roy crabtree, edf and the commercials are deliberating on the best method to shut down non-compliant state seasons. 
Have already seen propaganda from the cfa leadership about state non-compliance comments like state non-compliance threatens the red snapper stock, state non-compliance breeds lawlessness and illegal activity when fisherman fish in closed federal waters during a state water season. Their challenge will either be in the form of a lawsuit against the states or in the form of a ruling or challenge from the Secretary of commerce. 

Either way a little in the way of a 30 some odd day federal snapper season will not be enough in the end and they will want it all.


----------



## Gator McKlusky

Realtor said:


> SSSSooooo,
> 
> Who can fish for Red Snapper when and where???


If your boat is a federally permitted charter boat with a gulf reef fish permit your season is forecasted to start 1st of June 2015 and run for around 30 contiguous days next year. If you are like the rest of us expect a 2 day season in federal waters. In florida state waters we don't know yet.


----------



## Burnt Drag

Gator McKlusky said:


> If your boat is a federally permitted charter boat with a gulf reef fish permit your season is forecasted to start 1st of June 2015 and run for around 30 contiguous days next year. If you are like the rest of us expect a 2 day season in federal waters. In florida state waters we don't know yet.


And Gator, that is EXACTLY why I said it from the beginning, this is and has been a 








S.S. was sold on the pretext that it would give CFH operators options on when and when not to fish for ARS. We were told we would be able to choose which days we'd fish. We were not going to be forced to fish on days of hazardous sea conditions. If it's 30 contiguous days, then the whole thing was a sham. Of course, I knew that all along. :whistling:


----------



## spike

Well, since overwhelming public support against separation did not work. And the lack of support by many of those in the fishing industry and the outright aggression by others (Gulf Breeze Bait & Tackle, Zeke's). I think it's time to start shutting down some businesses.

If you do business at Gulf Breeze or Zeke's you supported separation with your hard earned dollars. Until we close some businesses and make it very public in the media as to why these places closed our elected officials will continue to give us lip service.

After these 2 businesses its time to go after the one's that try to hide in the shadows. You are either for us or against us (J&M Tackle where are you?). I am demanding the places that I shop to take a stand. And, If you work at one of these places of business tell the CFH what happened to you and see what kind of sympathy you get. 

Gulf Breeze Tackle and Zeke's...SHUT THEM DOWN


----------



## southbound

I hate to say this but all of us bitching on a internet forum will not change a thing. It is a good way to keep informed but the only thing that is going to work is a lawsuit. The vote was influenced by people with a direct economic interest in the outcome. That alone should hold up in court but if not than the overall impact one the economy should suffice. This is a clear case of the guberment overstepping its authority. NFA and CCA need to combine resources and get after NMFS. Just let me know where the check needs to go.


----------



## Candy

Below is the letter I sent thanking the FWC for standing up for recreational fishermen, I hope you will thank them too. Here is the address: [email protected] 


From: Candy Hansard [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 8:54 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: Thank You FWC Commissioners!

Dear Commissioners, 

I would like to express my appreciation for your letter to the Gulf Council opposing Sector Separation. Although the vote favored the charter fishermen over the millions of Florida’s private recreational fishermen, it was nice to see that our State Fish and Wildlife agency appreciated the importance of preserving access to the stakeholders who pay the lion’s share of fishery management expenses both in our state and federal waters.

Considering the fact that approximately 75% of the Federal Red Snapper Fishery in the Gulf of Mexico will now be privatized, it is my hope that our State will protect the private recreational fisherman by going non-compliant with Federal Red Snapper fishing regulations offering fishing opportunities to the millions of people who live and pay taxes in our state.

It is also my hope that our State will discontinue funding reef building in Federal Waters that our State does not control. 

Again, I thank you all for standing up for the citizens and taxpayers in our State.

Sincerely,

Candy Hansard


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## Tom Hilton

Candy - you may also consider getting a letter writing campaign to the FL governor's office - the state of Florida sent a letter to the Gulf Council denouncing passage of AM 40, yet 3 out of 4 FL Gulf Council reps voted FOR AM 40. 

Dysfunctional government at its finest.


----------



## Candy

I have been thinking about that. I fully expected to see a press release from the Gov. Office by now removing his appointee for voting in her own best interest at the expense of MILLIONS of fishermen who live and vote in this state. 

Pam Dana was appointed by Gov. Scott. Either she thumbed her nose at him or he didn't really care. In any case, the voters who fish off their own boats should be livid if Gov. Scott lets that slide. He needs the Republican Stronghold in the Panhandle to win the election and his appointee just kicked all but a handful of the voters off the water. So far, he's done nothing about it.

His office needs to hear from more than just one disgruntled voter. I guarantee he will be hearing from me. I fish and I vote.


----------



## tbaxl

Candy said:


> I have been thinking about that. I fully expected to see a press release from the Gov. Office by now removing his appointee for voting in her own best interest at the expense of MILLIONS of fishermen who live and vote in this state.
> 
> Pam Dana was appointed by Gov. Scott. Either she thumbed her nose at him or he didn't really care. In any case, the voters who fish off their own boats should be livid if Gov. Scott lets that slide. He needs the Republican Stronghold in the Panhandle to win the election and his appointee just kicked all but a handful of the voters off the water. So far, he's done nothing about it.
> 
> His office needs to hear from more than just one disgruntled voter. I guarantee he will be hearing from me. I fish and I vote.



The election is still a week + away, not sure I will vote for the incumbent gov or not, neither one excites me so I may use my vote to make a personal point.


----------



## SaltAddict

Spike- exactly how did gbbt show aggression?


----------



## Candy

Office of Governor Rick Scott
State of Florida
The Capitol
400 S. Monroe St.
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001

(850) 717-9337

E-mail the Governor here: http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-scott/email-the-governor

Not sure he reads his e-mail so you might just want to call his office with your thoughts.


----------



## Burnt Drag

spike said:


> Well, since overwhelming public support against separation did not work. And the lack of support by many of those in the fishing industry and the outright aggression by others (Gulf Breeze Bait & Tackle, Zeke's). I think it's time to start shutting down some businesses.
> 
> If you do business at Gulf Breeze or Zeke's you supported separation with your hard earned dollars. Until we close some businesses and make it very public in the media as to why these places closed our elected officials will continue to give us lip service.
> 
> After these 2 businesses its time to go after the one's that try to hide in the shadows. You are either for us or against us (J&M Tackle where are you?). I am demanding the places that I shop to take a stand. And, If you work at one of these places of business tell the CFH what happened to you and see what kind of sympathy you get.
> 
> Gulf Breeze Tackle and Zeke's...SHUT THEM DOWN


Spike, with all due respect, GBB&T's owner, Captain Victor Wright came on here and denied that he supported S.S. He knew what support for the measure would do to his business just as Tommy at Outcast did.* And even though he operates a cfh boat, Vitamin Sea, he's one of us... a recreational fisherman who happens to have a charter boat. 
I've never known Victor to spew lies. Give it a rest.

* Tommy and I both attended 2 NMFS meetings in opposition to Am. 40. Tommy was an articulate speaker against the measure and I doubt he'd have supported it even if he had the biggest CFH boat in Pensacola.


----------



## spike

SaltAddict and Burnt Drag, read the article. I stand by my statement:

http://www.thedestinlog.com/news/ch...urism-and-us-from-a-bad-fwc-decision-1.388321


----------



## scott44

spike said:


> Well, since overwhelming public support against separation did not work. And the lack of support by many of those in the fishing industry and the outright aggression by others (Gulf Breeze Bait & Tackle, Zeke's). I think it's time to start shutting down some businesses.
> 
> If you do business at Gulf Breeze or Zeke's you supported separation with your hard earned dollars. Until we close some businesses and make it very public in the media as to why these places closed our elected officials will continue to give us lip service.
> 
> After these 2 businesses its time to go after the one's that try to hide in the shadows. You are either for us or against us (J&M Tackle where are you?). I am demanding the places that I shop to take a stand. And, If you work at one of these places of business tell the CFH what happened to you and see what kind of sympathy you get.
> 
> Gulf Breeze Tackle and Zeke's...SHUT THEM DOWN


I agree....


----------



## RedLeg

So what can we recreational guys do to make a difference? Do we have to wait the 3 years? Will we have any chance to fish ARS in fed waters? What if we all just fished them anyways with an internally managed 2 per day limit for a predetermined time period? Obviously, some of us would get caught, but after a while you would think the Feds would get the point that this resource should be shared amongst all properly licensed anglers. Why is this so hard to convey to the bureaucrats?


----------



## SnapperSlapper

It's over. We've lost the right to bottomfish. The charter guys that "won" this battle will soon find they are the enemy of their environmentalist buddies. Now they will go after offshore fish. We are screwed. As long as the federal government has power over it, we lose.


----------



## RedLeg

Well, if the federal government is involved in it than that is the truth...of course, we can vote for people who may be open to cutting big govt and getting rid of wasteful bureuacratic systems.


----------



## outcast

*Sector Segregation*

I want to clear the air and make sure you all know that Outcast is 100% against this amendment in all aspects both before its passage and now. I have spoken out publicly against it in meetings and via many e-mails. Now having said that I will continue fighting this behind the scenes. I ate dinner with the treasurer for the ASA last Monday ahead of the meeting. I was told that they were against it and had big money set aside to legally fight it if it passed. Having said that I will also say I don know what happened with their rep saying what he said. I promise I will make calls in the AM and report back. I have been in direct contact with the powers at be from the state and I am working on some plans to present to the FWC council at their November meeting. I explaned my absence from the Mobile meeting on a previous post. I had to be at a marine supply trade show last week. We are going into that business and I could not get out of it. Yes these regulations are hurting all of the businesses like mine and I hope you all understand that Outcast is fighting for our rights and I am sure that the other businesses think the same way I do or at least I hope they do. 
I will keep you informed as I get more info.


----------



## markw4321

RedLeg said:


> So what can we recreational guys do to make a difference? Do we have to wait the 3 years? Will we have any chance to fish ARS in fed waters? What if we all just fished them anyways with an internally managed 2 per day limit for a predetermined time period? Obviously, some of us would get caught, but after a while you would think the Feds would get the point that this resource should be shared amongst all properly licensed anglers. Why is this so hard to convey to the bureaucrats?


There are several areas that have to be focused on to reverse this all are equaly important.
- who gets appointed to the voting membership of the gulf council (recommended by the governor's of gulf states) and approved by nmfs/noaa. Have to have the governor's ear on this to make sure his picks are good and to ensure that state equivalent fwc's vote accordingly.
- members of the federal congress house and Senate have to understand what magnuson Stevens has done to the people.
- finally the fight needs a marketing "brand" a "face" of the people. You had charter boat captains wives testifying before the council on this issue. If I had to pick a face it would be recreational fishing marine industry businesss owners who depend on recreational fisherman for their livelihoods. Everybody from boat builders to Tony the blue boat bait man.


----------



## markw4321

outcast said:


> I want to clear the air and make sure you all know that Outcast is 100% against this amendment in all aspects both before its passage and now. I have spoken out publicly against it in meetings and via many e-mails. Now having said that I will continue fighting this behind the scenes. I ate dinner with the treasurer for the ASA last Monday ahead of the meeting. I was told that they were against it and had big money set aside to legally fight it if it passed. Having said that I will also say I don know what happened with their rep saying what he said. I promise I will make calls in the AM and report back. I have been in direct contact with the powers at be from the state and I am working on some plans to present to the FWC council at their November meeting. I explaned my absence from the Mobile meeting on a previous post. I had to be at a marine supply trade show last week. We are going into that business and I could not get out of it. Yes these regulations are hurting all of the businesses like mine and I hope you all understand that Outcast is fighting for our rights and I am sure that the other businesses think the same way I do or at least I hope they do.
> I will keep you informed as I get more info.


Thanks Tommy you the man!


----------



## flounderslayerman

Thank you Tommy for your stance against sector seperation !


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## LopeAlong

How do you guys not realize what this is all about on your end. I'd guess that after a big membership drive for RFA and they stood you up in Biloxi and now you ASA rep being a turncoat who do you send your money to?

SnapperSlapper pm and I'll help you out in FL waters


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## KingCrab

Red Snapper is a couple of things, A Sea food commercial industry, A recreational fishing & a pay a Guide industry, ok 3 things. Which I have no problem with either way. It's a red pin Fish to me. It's become a commercial Government issue now with rules & restrictions. Why, ? They are obviously worth money to someone. If they were not in Sea food markets, Worth nothing. So, How to deal with it. When dollar signs swim around then the Gov gets involved. Not to help , But to make their money. Well, We did this. How do we fix this? There's no shortage of them. But a shortage of how to make money off them. We need to get to the money making part of this to solve the "Our" problems of this. Not worth nothing? No problem. How many on this site buy's Snapper commercially? None. Why are we the problem? A million reasons obviously, Dollars wise. :thumbdown: I can't remember selling a RS for anything. They were like Mullet Which is now a Restricted species for what? Money. State of Fla money. There's the problem. ,, Wait till our next Crap fish is worth money.:001_huh:


----------



## jjam

spike said:


> SaltAddict and Burnt Drag, read the article. I stand by my statement:
> 
> http://www.thedestinlog.com/news/ch...urism-and-us-from-a-bad-fwc-decision-1.388321


It's a publish article so, it must be true uh?

Prove me wrong for taking Victor's response as TRUTH!

Victor's response to the letter you stand behind:

" Gulf Breeze Bait and Tackle does NOT support Amendment 40a , did NOT sign any letter and should NOT be on this list."



Jimmy


----------



## Tom Hilton

I know that Outcast and J&M Tackle are certainly opposed to Sector Separation as they have taken the time to attend the meetings and other things important to the fight.


----------



## The LaJess II

Bobby, what is fixing to happen to you and yours is to start to a disassemble.

Below is the number to Gov. office FRA provided. Call and let Gov. Scott know how you feel. Let him know in a phone call that you demand a public comment as to how he is going to address our fisheries and you want a statement made publicity . Let him know we no longer want his appointee representing us. 

*Call 850-488-7146 at announcement push 1 then ask for Kelly Pathioli.*


----------



## Redtracker

The LaJess II said:


> Bobby, what is fixing to happen to you and yours is to start to a disassemble.
> 
> Below is tprotectber to Gov. office FRA provided. Call and let Gov. Scott know how you feel. Let him know in a phone call that you demand a public comment as to how he is going to address our fisheries and you want a statement made publicity . Let him know we no longer want his appointee representing us.
> 
> *Call 850-488-7146 at announcement push 1 then ask for Kelly Pathioli.*


I will call this morning and demand that he removes Pam Dana and makes a public statement on what he is going to do to protect my FISHING RIGHT or my Republican Vote will be changed.


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## Redtracker

*Pam Dana*

http://www.850businessmagazine.com/...nce-are-the-secret-to-Pamela-Danas-successes/ 

A link to who Pam Dana is .


----------



## AndyS

RedLeg said:


> So what can we recreational guys do to make a difference? Do we have to wait the 3 years? Will we have any chance to fish ARS in fed waters? What if we all just fished them anyways with an internally managed 2 per day limit for a predetermined time period? Obviously, some of us would get caught, but after a while you would think the Feds would get the point that this resource should be shared amongst all properly licensed anglers. Why is this so hard to convey to the bureaucrats?


That would work a lot better Gulf State Governors directed State FWC Officers to enforce State fishing regulations only, regardless of whether one has been in Federal waters.

Somehow I don't think that's gonna happen.


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## ssrs69camaro

This equates to the Wolves voting to have complete access to the Henhouse. 
Lopealong,do you and all the other CFH really have enough spots to fish for quality snapper within the 9 mile zone for 52 days if you were allowed to? How many of the pesky "Monkey Boats" would be all on top of yall? I am guilty of being short sighted I guess, because all of the reefs I have deployed LEGALLY over the years have been 30+ miles out.I never thought I would need any within sight of land to be legal


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## Kim

It is what it is and it will remain that way until it is revoked, amended or changed through the same process that got it to where it's at. Accusations, recriminations, rants, raves and pouting wont do anything unless you're the type of person that feels better after venting.

The best thing we can do right now is to send emails, write letters, make phone calls an pay personal visits to our elected officials and find out where they stand on the issue. Then we tell them they either got our vote in the next election or not based on where they stand on what we want them to do for us on particular issues.

Politics is all about two things, campaign contributions and votes. Any group of people that can organize becoming a large group that would contribute and vote as a block become more effective in achieving their goals than they would as individuals. Then we just can hope that those we decide to back actually are proactive on what they promised for the support given.


----------



## captwesrozier

Just called Rick Scott's office. Told the nice lady that if Rick did not come out immediately and fire all those who voted yes for A 40 and tell us what he plans to do to make sure the Great Citizens of Florida's fishing rights to the red snapper in both state and federal waters are protected that we will mobilize and vote against him on the Nov 4th election.

Gov. Scott the clock is ticking!

Capt Wes


----------



## Tom Hilton

Here is a quote from Dr. Bob Shipp; "In Magnuson (proposals) right now, there is strong language to allow Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana to have nine miles (of state waters) like Florida and Texas have. If you did that, with what we have off Alabama and what you have off Louisiana, the entire quota would be caught in state waters. *So what do you do then? You've got this huge resource beyond nine miles that you can't touch.* Those are the kinds of things that will cause people to wake up and take a look at some common sense. I think that the nine-mile extension is probably going to fly."

Dr. Shipp is basically saying that is the quota is all caught in state waters, it doesn't matter if you have sector separation or not, the charter boats will not be able to fish their quota in federal waters just like we are being prohibited from fishing in federal waters.

If that was done, then perhaps people will wake up and some common sense inserted into the process. Lopealong thinks they are immune since they are separated - they are not.


----------



## Kim

I also called 1 (850) 488-7146 and left a message on the first call and I talked to a nice lady on the second call. I explained to her the reason I was calling was about my feelings on Amendment 40 and how I thought that the governors appointees had failed to vote in the best interests of the majority of the Florida population.

I also suggested to her that if the governor could find time in his busy schedule that he might want to visit some of the fishing forums throughout the state just to get an idea of what the everyday people had to say about Amendment 40 and it's repercussions. PFF was one site specifically mentioned and I did leave y phone number and email address for reciprocal contact in the event that the governor makes a statement concerning this issue.

On a side note I have always wondered if it's a psychological ploy that virtually every staffer you talk to on the phone has a keyboard loud enough so that you can hear them make notes as you talk. It would be ironic if they just hit random keys while conversing with us just to make us feel better.


----------



## southbound

Straight from the Gulf Council Rules of Conduct Guidelines.

Scope of Disqualification-Voting or participitating in Deliberations. You cannot vote on a council decisioin that would have an expected and substantially disproportionate benefit to a harvesting, processing, lobbying advocacy, or marketing interest you have reported. 

Now how did Pam Dana and John Green pass that test?


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## markw4321

I called and they took my comments on the appointees as well.


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## jdgator

Take red snapper out of Magnuson-Stevens, turn it over to the states, and be done with it. It would be a win-win for private and charter anglers.


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## markw4321

southbound said:


> Straight from the Gulf Council Rules of Conduct Guidelines.
> 
> Scope of Disqualification-Voting or participitating in Deliberations. You cannot vote on a council decisioin that would have an expected and substantially disproportionate benefit to a harvesting, processing, lobbying advocacy, or marketing interest you have reported.
> 
> Now how did Pam Dana and John Green pass that test?


I have seen the exemption before but cant find it right now. There is an exemption in the rules that allows people like "Pam Dana" and "John Green" to vote on an issue as long as it is not on an issue that would allow them as individuals to accrue or recieve greater than 10% of the total value of the resource. 

The gulf council lawyer was right there the whole time during these precedings and heard these type questions. The Gulf Council lawyer approved the vote of Pam Dana and John Green. 

10% of the charter for hire snapper industry would be a large amount of money.

doesnt seem right but it is an exemption in the rules.


----------



## captaindye251

Kim said:


> On a side note I have always wondered if it's a psychological ploy that virtually every staffer you talk to on the phone has a keyboard loud enough so that you can hear them make notes as you talk. It would be ironic if they just hit random keys while conversing with us just to make us feel better.


You may be on to something here... and with the way gov't "cares" about it's people you're probably right too lol


----------



## The LaJess II

Congressional Sector Separation Poll has been setup. I posted a thread on it in General Discussion. Please go to the poll and let them know if you are for it or against it.
Thanks


----------



## captaindye251

Bad link


----------



## The LaJess II

I'll try to fix it.


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## The LaJess II

See if it is working now. Please let me know. Thanks


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## captaindye251

It's good now


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## captaindye251

Thus far, 66% say screw this noise


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## Candy

The Congressional Sportsmens Caucus wants your opinion on this ONE question poll. The poll question is on the right side fo the page and below are the answers you have to chose from. I am from a Gulf Coast State and do not support Sector Separation so I chose the second answer. 

Please go to the link below and take the poll. Whatever your thoughts, this is your chance to tell Congress what you think of Sector Separation. 

The Gulf Council has voted *but Congress may be interested in reviewing the Magnuson Stevens Act.* Sector Separation may get some Congressional scrutiny depending on the response to this one question poll. 

Go here to take the poll: http://www.sportsmenslink.org/caucuses/congressional


----------



## ironman

Looks like the overall numbers are 78% against and 19% for sector seperation.


----------



## Lyin Too

Everybody knew this prior to the vote. The NMFS also knew this because of the overwhelming majority of negative responses on line. They got letters from the gulf states asking them to vote it down yet they approved it anyway. Theres got to be some big kickbacks and payoffs here. Why else would 3 of 4 Florida reps vote for it when the Governor clearly stated he was against it. And why would Alabama or Mississippi vote for it when the same thing happened there? Payoffs, thats why. And if the charter fleet is already making so much money they dont need snapper, why are they for it? I predict heads will roll over this, hope they got big ass checks.


----------



## scott44

Lyin Too said:


> Everybody knew this prior to the vote. The NMFS also knew this because of the overwhelming majority of negative responses on line. They got letters from the gulf states asking them to vote it down yet they approved it anyway. Theres got to be some big kickbacks and payoffs here. Why else would 3 of 4 Florida reps vote for it when the Governor clearly stated he was against it. And why would Alabama or Mississippi vote for it when the same thing happened there? Payoffs, thats why. And if the charter fleet is already making so much money they dont need snapper, why are they for it? I predict heads will roll over this, hope they got big ass checks.


I don't trust these Governors at all.Yea,they speak against it but never say what they actually did to try and stop it.Makes me think they just let it happen and covered their ass by saying"I'm against it"


----------



## tbaxl

Lyin Too said:


> Everybody knew this prior to the vote. The NMFS also knew this because of the overwhelming majority of negative responses on line. They got letters from the gulf states asking them to vote it down yet they approved it anyway. Theres got to be some big kickbacks and payoffs here. Why else would 3 of 4 Florida reps vote for it when the Governor clearly stated he was against it. And why would Alabama or Mississippi vote for it when the same thing happened there? Payoffs, thats why. And if the charter fleet is already making so much money they dont need snapper, why are they for it? I predict heads will roll over this, hope they got big ass checks.


Heads did not roll at the IRS or the VA or Justice Dept. and in the grand scheme of things those are way more important, about the best we can hope for is the legal system.


----------



## jjam

Latest results, tks for the link.

I live in a Gulf state and support this proposal (7.59%)
I live in a Gulf state and do not support this proposal (72.77%)
I do not live in a Gulf state, but support this proposal (4.02%)
I do not live in a Gulf state and do not support this proposal (10.71%)
I am unfamiliar with this issue, or have no opinion of the proposal (4.91%)
- See more at: http://www.sportsmenslink.org/caucuses/congressional?poll=voted/#sthash.lpsD76Cm.dpuf


Jimmy


----------



## scott44

I voted but somehow I just don't think they care what most folks think.I would love to be wrong.


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## ssrs69camaro

Thanks for the link,maybe we could write a letter to all the members of the CSF.

73.62 against 7.65 for


----------



## Redtracker

I did my poll against. ..


----------



## 2RC's II

Ok again I wasted my time and voted. Let me say I called emailed and jumped up and down with all my state reps. and what happened? Nothing. You know why? We vote the same SOB's in every time. Well you do I don't! I never vote for an incumbent. Never! Until something changes.


----------



## Candy

Everybody, call your fishing buddies and tell them to take the poll. It ain't over till it's over and the Dept. of Commerce has to sign off on it.

Congressmen who are interested in the public having access need to hear from YOU! This poll is a very easy way to be heard. 

Please take 2 minutes and take the one question poll!

http://www.sportsmenslink.org/caucuses/congressional


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## Burnt Drag

Redtracker said:


> http://www.850businessmagazine.com/...nce-are-the-secret-to-Pamela-Danas-successes/
> 
> A link to who Pam Dana is .


What a fluff piece. Let's do one on Bobby Kelly now... LOL!:whistling:


----------



## The LaJess II

I'm still waiting to see if he made the appointment with the Federal Judge. To brag on they got their 75% as he said in testimony at the Council meeting. Some how when he spoke those words it was like he knew it was already a done deal before the vote even took place. Imagine that.


----------



## The LaJess II

Burnt Drag said:


> What a fluff piece. Let's do one on Bobby Kelly now... LOL!:whistling:


 Check your PM got a fishing trip question for you.


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## spike

*Ding Dong Bobby*



Burnt Drag said:


> What a fluff piece. Let's do one on Bobby Kelly now... LOL!:whistling:


That would be funny...:yes:


----------



## Lyin Too

I wrote letters to my congressmen, senators, governor and head of the Alabama Wildlife dept, I wrote Pam Dana and told them all I was against this. I got responses from Richard Shelby, Pam Dana and N. Gunter Guy through a letter forwarded to him from Gerald Allen (Al senator) and all said they were against reallocation of the fishery and/or this amendment 40. However, King Roy was for it. As many of us have said on this forum to each other many times over, our voice always falls on deaf ears. I'm going to do what the hell I want when it comes to fishing. Catch me if you can.


----------



## Burnt Drag

Lyin Too said:


> I wrote letters to my congressmen, senators, governor and head of the Alabama Wildlife dept, I wrote Pam Dana and told them all I was against this. I got responses from Richard Shelby, Pam Dana and N. Gunter Guy through a letter forwarded to him from Gerald Allen (Al senator) and all said they were against reallocation of the fishery and/or this amendment 40. However, King Roy was for it. As many of us have said on this forum to each other many times over, our voice always falls on deaf ears. I'm going to do what the hell I want when it comes to fishing. Catch me if you can.


LT, let me tell ya, bro... it ain't worth it. All it takes is being boarded by FWC with their fish dog. I got fined over 300.00 for two lobsters that I simply cleaned in the cove while drinking beer and shooting the bull. On my way back to RodnReel, I got boarded and issued a ticket. I fought it in court and got the book thrown at me. If I were going to gamble on it, I wouldn't be bringing fish into P'cola Pass or any pass for that matter. I think you know what I mean .


----------



## Candy

Keep sharing the poll with your friends! Here are the results as of 6:32 pm 10/28/14

I live in a Gulf state and support this proposal (6.84%)
I live in a Gulf state and do not support this proposal (80.93%)
I do not live in a Gulf state, but support this proposal (1.60%)
I do not live in a Gulf state and do not support this proposal (8.88%)
I am unfamiliar with this issue, or have no opinion of the proposal (1.75%)
- See more at: http://www.sportsmenslink.org/caucuses/congressional#sthash.f61gFrMo.dpuf


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## Tom Hilton

*"Council members shall not vote on a Council decision which would have a significant and predictable effect on such financial interest. 

A Council decision shall be considered to have a significant and predictable effect on a financial interest if there is a close causal link between the Council decision and an expected and substantially disproportionate benefit to the financial interest of the affected individual relative to the financial interests of other participants in the same gear type or sector of the fishery” 

When it comes to "expected and substantially disproportionate benefit" 50 CFR 600.235(c). Paragraph (c)(3) states: 
(3) “Expected and substantially disproportionate benefit” means a quantifiable positive or negative impact with regard to a matter likely to affect a fishery or sector of the fishery in which the affected individual has a significant interest, as indicated by:

(i) A greater than 10-percent interest in the total harvest of the fishery or sector of the fishery in question;

(ii) A greater than 10-percent interest in the marketing or processing of the total harvest of the fishery or sector of the fishery in question; or

(iii) Full or partial ownership of more than 10 percent of the vessels using the same gear type within the fishery or sector of the fishery in question." *

Does any one of you know one single person or entity that meets the above criteria - specifically, one that has; (i) greater than 10% interest in the total harvest of the fishery or sector of the fishery in question, (ii) a greater than 10-percent interest in the marketing or processing of the total harvest of the fishery or sector of the fishery in question; or (iii) Full or partial ownership of more than 10 percent of the vessels using the same gear type within the fishery or sector of the fishery in question"?

I would like to see one person or entity that can meet that standard. The standard has been set so high that *ABSOLUTELY NOBODY* can possibly meet that standard - the net result being a wide open scenario where any Gulf Council member can do whatever they want and not even have the slightest worry about violating the very basic tenets of Conflict of Interest Standards.

Anyone? Please post up if you know of any person or entity that could possibly meet such standards.

Looks to me that the very basic tenets of conflict of interest standards have been stripped bare here at the Gulf Council level to allow activities that would be considered conflict of interest in virtually any other arena.

Tom Hilton


----------



## Bean Counter

If this standard was used across other lines of businesses there would never be anyone anywhere that would have a conflict of interest. How many people in the world own more than 10% of any business sector?


----------



## southbound

Bingo. I know of no Government board, council ect. that uses a 10% rule in their rules of conduct guidelines. That could be millions of dollars by itself. A good attorney will rip the Gulf Council a new one on that statute alone.


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## Candy

If the States wanted to, they could withdraw their representatives and form a coalition of Gulf States and REALLY get to work fixing fishery problems instead of creating problems to manage as the GC has done so well.

If all 5 of the Gulf States withdrew at the same time, that would remove any credibility the Gulf Council has because then it would just be the federal bully without it's band of Gulf State representatives giving the "appearance" of representing the interests of the States.

Our Governor and FFWCC wrote letters opposing sector separation and still 3 of Florida's 4 voting members voted FOR sector separation! What a sham. Florida only had one GC voting member, Martha Bademan from the FWC who stood up to the pressure and voted in the best interest of the State of FL. Good for you Martha! 

If the GC or NMFS for that matter, was good at managing the fishery, everyone would have more fishing access, not less fishing access. 

It's time to climb out of the box and start all over. This system is BROKEN!


----------



## LopeAlong

Burnt Drag said:


> What a fluff piece. Let's do one on Bobby Kelly now... LOL!:whistling:


How would that article start? With a criminal record search or would it start with I stole your sons 5yr girlfriend and made her my wife and the first words you had for her when you saw her years later where "How did you marry a charterboat captain?"


----------



## 2RC's II

LopeAlong said:


> How would that article start? With a criminal record search or would it start with I stole your sons 5yr girlfriend and made her my wife?


I'm just wondering do you practice being an asshole or does it just come naturally?


----------



## 2RC's II

That was a question moderator's not an attack. According to my wife it comes naturally as far as me!


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## ssrs69camaro

Lopealong,I had a question for you on post 236.I would be interestd in your answer.Thanks


----------



## LopeAlong

ssrs69camaro said:


> This equates to the Wolves voting to have complete access to the Henhouse.
> Lopealong,do you and all the other CFH really have enough spots to fish for quality snapper within the 9 mile zone for 52 days if you were allowed to? How many of the pesky "Monkey Boats" would be all on top of yall? I am guilty of being short sighted I guess, because all of the reefs I have deployed LEGALLY over the years have been 30+ miles out.I never thought I would need any within sight of land to be legal


I can't answer for all of my colleuges but I do yes, for both of my boats. I have over 125 good spots in what we call the box in Florida waters. I have also always built spots shallow west of little lagoon to the Plantation. They are well within the 9 mile mark of Alabama waters. Even if you take out the FL side I can survive and even thrive in AL waters. 

All of this is a mute point because all I need is the ability to keep a ARS. I don't even have to catch a limit, just a few fish a trip will make customers happy.


----------



## flounderslayerman

LopeAlong said:


> I can't answer for all of my colleuges but I do yes, for both of my boats. I have over 125 good spots in what we call the box in Florida waters. I have also always built spots shallow west of little lagoon to the Plantation. They are well within the 9 mile mark of Alabama waters. Even if you take out the FL side I can survive and even thrive in AL waters.
> 
> All of this is a mute point because all I need is the ability to keep a ARS. I don't even have to catch a limit, just a few fish a trip will make customers happy.


. The feds don't recognize AL 9 miles. So no AL snappers for you.


----------



## LopeAlong

flounderslayerman said:


> . The feds don't recognize AL 9 miles. So no AL snappers for you.


You check to see how many federal tickets were written inside that 3-9 mile mark this year? Bet it ain't very many. Only ones the AL boys wrote were way beyond that zone. I feel pretty good about my chances if it comes to that. But rest assured I'll come get the FL fish first.


----------



## frydaddy

Hey lope

must have a pretty deep throat there, you swallow or do you come up for a breath and spit?


----------



## CharlieT

I was wondering how much ya'll think the CFH will be charging for a "snapper premium" trip. My bet is they will charge a per fish premium up to the trip limit.


----------



## H2OMARK

LopeAlong said:


> All of this is a mute point because all I need is the ability to keep a ARS. I don't even have to catch a limit, just a few fish a trip will make customers happy.


That's what you're hoping for. I don't have a crystal ball but we'll see how that plays out after the recreational fisherman get the word out about who to fish with OR NOT. I know several CFH fellas that spoke out against SS and that is who I will recommend to anyone that cares to ask.



LopeAlong said:


> You check to see how many federal tickets were written inside that 3-9 mile mark this year? Bet it ain't very many. Only ones the AL boys wrote were way beyond that zone. I feel pretty good about my chances if it comes to that. But rest assured I'll come get the FL fish first.


Since FWC seemed to be against SS (at least from a public perception) and the trend is that the Feds seem to be catching a ride with many of FWC boats, that ticket writing scenario could very easily change in 2015.


----------



## Harbison

*Amendment 40*

Amendment 40
We all knew how Crabtree would vote. But to see Pam Dana, recreational fisherman representative on the Gulf Council, vote YES was a shocker. 
The motion to approve Amendment 40 passed as follows:


Mr. Perret Yes
Mr. Williams Yes
Mr. Sanchez Yes
Dr. Dana Yes
Mr. Matens No
Ms. Bosarge Yes
Mr. Walker Yes
Dr. Crabtree Yes
Mr. Diaz No
Mr. Boyd No
Dr. Stunz No
Mr. Greene Yes
Mr. Riechers No
Ms. Bademan No
Mr. Anson Yes
Is there anything that can be done?
Yes, we can reform the federal fisheries law (Magnuson Stevens Act). RFA has been trying to reform this bad law since it was reenacted with all of the environmental extremism back in 2006/2007. RFA has maintained a very clear, straightforward and unwavering message for the past 7 years - the lack of flexibility in Magnuson, with arbitrary rebuilding deadlines, and rigid ACL/AM requirements based on "fatally flawed" data, will ultimately deny anglers access to healthy, sustainable fisheries. Congress must fix the law, and the 'sector separation' and recreational catch share argument will ultimately be rendered moot. Thank Environmental Defense Fund and the Pew Environment Group for helping pit fisherman against fisherman while turning the environmental movement into a complete sham run by corporate interests. RFA

Directly from the desk of Mr. Nick Wiley, FWC director:
"FWC did not support this Amendment"


----------



## Burnt Drag

LopeAlong said:


> How would that article start? With a criminal record search or would it start with I stole your sons 5yr girlfriend and made her my wife and the first words you had for her when you saw her years later where "How did you marry a charterboat captain?"


Criminal record search? You or me? Noone with a USCG license, a TWIC card, a Conceal Carry Permit, and security clearance for international sub-contract work for US Army Corps of engineers has a criminal record. Yes, I've been arrested for DUI and a few other minors, but no convictions. As for you stealing my son's GF, did you really want to go there? My wife and I had a nice conversation with H that evening and I was disappointed that you were not there... I mean I was then.


----------



## LopeAlong

H2OMARK said:


> That's what you're hoping for. I don't have a crystal ball but we'll see how that plays out after the recreational fisherman get the word out about who to fish with OR NOT. I know several CFH fellas that spoke out against SS and that is who I will recommend to anyone that cares to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> Since FWC seemed to be against SS (at least from a public perception) and the trend is that the Feds seem to be catching a ride with many of FWC boats, that ticket writing scenario could very easily change in 2015.



Oh no, not the I'm not gonna take my trip or two with you routine. 98% of my clientele doesn't know a single person down here and the 2% that do are friends of mine that only care about being put on the fish. 

I've already spoken with a few of the higher ups in Leo for Al and they assure me that it will be a complete shyt show if FWC starts policing AL territorial waters. As of the 10 times my 2 boats were checked and boarded this year not a single one was west of a 87'31.125 otherwise known as the state line. But again it's not going to come to that. I'll either have 34 days 2 fish days or 53days at 1 fish.


----------



## LopeAlong

Harbison said:


> Amendment 40
> We all knew how Crabtree would vote. But to see Pam Dana, recreational fisherman representative on the Gulf Council, vote YES was a shocker.
> The motion to approve Amendment 40 passed as follows:
> 
> 
> Mr. Perret Yes
> Mr. Williams Yes
> Mr. Sanchez Yes
> Dr. Dana Yes
> Mr. Matens No
> Ms. Bosarge Yes
> Mr. Walker Yes
> Dr. Crabtree Yes
> Mr. Diaz No
> Mr. Boyd No
> Dr. Stunz No
> Mr. Greene Yes
> Mr. Riechers No
> Ms. Bademan No
> Mr. Anson Yes
> Is there anything that can be done?
> Yes, we can reform the federal fisheries law (Magnuson Stevens Act). RFA has been trying to reform this bad law since it was reenacted with all of the environmental extremism back in 2006/2007. RFA has maintained a very clear, straightforward and unwavering message for the past 7 years - the lack of flexibility in Magnuson, with arbitrary rebuilding deadlines, and rigid ACL/AM requirements based on "fatally flawed" data, will ultimately deny anglers access to healthy, sustainable fisheries. Congress must fix the law, and the 'sector separation' and recreational catch share argument will ultimately be rendered moot. Thank Environmental Defense Fund and the Pew Environment Group for helping pit fisherman against fisherman while turning the environmental movement into a complete sham run by corporate interests. RFA
> 
> Directly from the desk of Mr. Nick Wiley, FWC director:
> "FWC did not support this Amendment"


Hey Harbison! So glad you could make it back to a friendly conversation. I'm surprised you haven't taken the chance to promote joining RFA after this thing passed. You should use lines like RFA memberships are joining the lawsuit or RFA memberships will stop 40 or whatever it takes to sell one right? I forget what wS the reasoning behind standing all of these fine folks up at Biloxi?


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## Harbison

The stronger the RFA...the stronger we are!


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## Kim

The problem with PFF is that it is just about impossible to have threads and post that require thought and discussion with out it starting to read like excerpts from the Jerry Springer Show. It's okay to disagree, it's your right to express your opinions but it really helps if it's pertinent to the topic and it's just plain tacky to resort to insinuation, name calling, mudslinging because it really puts the forum and lack of moderation in a bad light. Every keystroke becomes a permanent record on the internet so it may be a good idea when having a moment of idiocy not to put it out there for the world to see online.


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## Mac1528

^^^amen!^^^


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## Candy

FRA did have a rep. In Biloxi. He did speak. How do I know? Well, I was there.


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## LES KNIGHTEN

Does anyone know, what can we legally do other than post?

In my opinion, RFA can't lobby with any success. RFA does provides a lot of useful information. RFA does little or very little litigation with any success.

In my opinion, CCA is too timid in their litigation. I would not want CCA to file any legal briefs in my behalf unless I approved them.

The issues we have with NOAA Fisheries, and the Gulf Counsel et al. is our fault, each and every one of us including myself. We have numerous legal remedies but we can't see the trees for the forest.


----------



## 2RC's II

LES KNIGHTEN said:


> Does anyone know, what can we legally do other than post?
> 
> In my opinion, RFA can't lobby with any success. RFA does provides a lot of useful information. RFA does little or very little litigation with any success.
> 
> In my opinion, CCA is too timid in their litigation. I would not want CCA to file any legal briefs in my behalf unless I approved them.
> 
> The issues we have with NOAA Fisheries, and the Gulf Counsel et al. is our fault, each and every one of us including myself. We have numerous legal remedies but we can't see the trees for the forest.


 I'm thinking this is the group to support. "FRA Fishing Rights Alliance" backed with money which is important, has legal team working on this as we sit here doing nothing, will not be compromised by the CFH lobby. Check it out. Small but gaining ground. [email protected]


----------



## Contender

Certainly FRA and CCA were not as effective as those working for the CFH, seems like the commercial gang, at least publicly, stayed out of the action though their reps to the council certainly supported 40. These groups have the wherewithal to sue and lobby though both cost money.

I have recently joined CCA and FRA, for those groups to be able to say they have large membership is likely helpful. The recent poll for the Sportsman Caucus should be helpful. Letters to Congressional Delegations are always read, and usually generate action. 40 has to be signed by the Secretary of Commerce, who may listen to the Congressional Members and will certainly pay attention if a number of letters from citizens are received.

Lastly, each Governor appoints members of the council, many are either CFH Captains/owners, and seafood processors. The recreational sector is poorly represented here in several states. Monitoring terms and writing letters near the end of council might help. Persistence will pay off.


----------



## Harbison

"The issues we have with NOAA Fisheries, and the Gulf Counsel et al. is our fault, each and every one of us including myself. We have numerous legal remedies but we can't see the trees for the forest"
Very well said. In addition, many of us are so busy arguing among ourselves that we cannot even come close to presenting a united front, a force that could actually control rather than be controlled. 
I do belong to the RFA. They have the numbers, funding, and ability to fight where it counts, or should count...the halls of congress. I do not belong to the FRA. The FRA is way to small, run by one man, and under-funded to accomplish anything. Problem is NOAA is stronger than congress. And we, through apathy; through 'not being able to, "see the trees for the forest" have allowed it to happen. We are our own worst enemy.


----------



## 2RC's II

I don't follow.... you state you do belong and you state you do not belong. I'm assuming that was a typing error? If so please advise as to which you do and don't belong to.


----------



## Mac1528

FRA Fishing Rights Alliance

RFA Recreational Fishing Alliance

I think the above is correct.


----------



## 2RC's II

Mac1528 said:


> FRA Fishing Rights Alliance
> 
> RFA Recreational Fishing Alliance
> 
> I think the above is correct.


 Gotcha thanks. Reading Comp. problem. I've seen so many groups described on this topic they are all running together. FRA could have picked a better name "FRA" is the Federal Railroad Administration!


----------



## Harbison

The RFA & the FRA are completely different. The RFA, which I have been a member of for years, is based in NJ. Their following is in the many thousands. They work the halls of congress. The RFA is not big on so called 'meetings.' The public 'meetings' set up by NOAA & the Gulf Council, are nothing more than public relation shams. Biloxi was a sham. They are set up, run by, and completely controlled by EDF's NOAA. Sorry to say it but public input means nothing. Crabtree does not even know, or care, that we exist. 
The FRA is based in central Florida. It has a very small membership with very limited funding. It is run by one man alone, Dennis O'Hern. I do not belong to the FRA. 
The member of the Gulf Council are appointed by the Department of Commerce; not the governors. When a position comes open the governors present a list to the Department to be considered. As an example...Mr Bo Gorham was Governor Scott's number one choice for the recreational representative on the Gulf Council. His choice was ignored. Dr. Pam Dana was appointed. Yes! The same Pam Dana who just voted YES on the dreaded Amendment 40.


----------



## LopeAlong

SnapperSlapper said:


> The state voted for it, regardless of their rationale. Orange Beach voted for it by omission. There was to my knowledge not a single entity from the orange beach community other than a few lone recreational anglers that spoke out or fought against a40. The old saying "if you aren't for us you are against us" seems appropriate.
> 
> Frankly I'm just sick of this mess. I'm out.


Actually the cities of Orange Beach and Gulf Shores both signed resolutions in support of it as well as our great mayor got up and spoke in favor of it. 

However both of our tackle shops have smartly decided to stay neutral on this issue as they should. I'm sure Chris has to carefully think about his post in the topic as well


----------



## LopeAlong

Candy said:


> FRA did have a rep. In Biloxi. He did speak. How do I know? Well, I was there.


No he did not!


----------



## LES KNIGHTEN

Post Number 11, by Les Knighten , November 2, 2014


I am or was a member of RFA (Recreational Fishing Alliance). I saw the light and dropped out of CCA years ago. 


Through out this post, I may site NOAA Fisheries, which includes their servants, agents or employees, the Gulf Council (GC) Members and each and every one of them. All of which are servants agents or employee of the Secretary Of Commerce. 

I do most of my research, legal in nature (federal case law) myself. Sometimes, I get on the forum, in my opinion Captain Tom Hilton is the best we have on the forums in providing information and various violations of rules, policies and procedures to us and the G.C.. There are other individuals that post very informative information on the forums that I highly respect as well. I also respect the ones of us that know we are being shafted (to say the least) and don't mind manning up and posting it. The sad thing about their (our) effort is that nobody listens, other than a very few of us. 


"Team Crabtree" does what they want regardless of MSA, or any other statutory law, rules, policies and procedures. They are knowingly violating the Constitution and Statutory Law (civil and criminal in nature) with impunity on tax payers dime. 


In all due respect, I am aware of a something you may have not realized or may not know, it may provide some information of what's going on . After all, I'm not to smart, it took me about 10 years as a "Pro Se" litigant, when I was informed by an administrative law judge about the real legal system. Which he summed up in five words. 


In due course, I came to realize that there is an illegal excepted legal practice used at will by some lawyers, some state and some federal officials who knowingly violate, including but not limited to, the Constitution, Statutory Law and their own rules of procedure. The legal term the law judge stated to me years earlier was "_LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES." _The legal profession will never admit it, but it's real and far-reaching and the lawyers are getting rich. Facts are facts and they speak for it's self.The burden and expense in our system of justice is put on the party opposite to file an appeal to correct any injustice. In most situations the cost of litigation for an appeal is not an option we can afford, therefore we are forced to except it, whether it's law full or not. In my opinion that's where we stand as the result of the unlawfulness and the unconstitutional actions or omissions of NOAA Fisheries, the higher ups and let's not forget "Team Crabtree". It sounds hopeless but we all have a legal remedy. It wont be easy, but if a few of us would break out of the "system" take it legally to a higher level where we will be in a different forum pursuant to FRCP. I have personal knowledge it would make a big difference. We have the right to propound discovery under oath in a court of law. 

Most individuals are not informed of our legal system of justice (justice is fairness) if you don't agree with decision you have a right to appeal, but you don't have the right to be heard on the merits not even in lower court and not in the Supreme Court. I have been there and done that.


In respect to Amendment 40, when "Team Crabtree' finish playing with us, 40 will proceed to the higher ups where we again will have a limited time to respond. If 40 passes at the "higher up administrative level", what's next, if my memory serves me correctly the "administrative system of justice" LOL, allows us 30 days to file a specific action in federal court to correct an unlawful action that should have never happened in the first place and at our expense. This is a prime example of _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES'._


I very seldom post anything, but a while back, I made my point on facebook with Gandygirl in respect to the national standards "best scientific data available" vs Statutory Law mandated in MSA "reliable data". I supported my position with federal court case law, she could not cite one District Court or Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court decision where a national standard trumped statutory law.There again _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES". _ 


Since mine and Gandygirl friendly exchange their is another case. In my opinion, the national standards issue is best explained in the Court's Opinion in the case filed in the DC Court that involved the Commercial Sector and NOAA Fisheries et al. At this time I don't have the record before me. Regardless, in the opinion of the District Court Judge, If I recall correctly, she noted something to the effect that the national standards are not law, but she stated some individuals considered them law. 


One of the legal issues we face is that the Secretary Of Commerce by and through NOAA Fisheries considers the national standards as being law without citing any US federal court decisions in support of their position. I haven't been able to pin them down but in a federal complaint if the issue is raised they will have to cite a legal authority or loose that issue. I believe they take the position that the national standards have been (correlated?) thus are law and therefore trumps the Statutory Law mandated in MSA. That legal theory is totally unfounded it no more that an excuse. On the flip side if NOAA Fisheries takes the position that the national standards are considered law by correlation or what ever excuse they use. Within the national standards it clearly state something to the effect that they shall not or can not have the force of law. If this issue is litigated, depending on how it's briefed. In my opinion, legally, either way NOAA should loose, as a matter of law. Just another example of _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES". _ 


The forum members that have elected to read this post this far. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you. it' to long.


I would like to respectfully request to you to simply take a few minutes of you time and think of few issues that I'm submitting regarding, including but not limited to, Amendment 40. If you feel they are worthy of consideration, I don't have any problem in them being submitted to the G.C. or who ever. Some of issue are as follows: 1(. First and foremost, what is the compelling federal interest in the passing of Amendment 40 2(. Are there any voting members of the GC ineligible or may be ineligible to cast a vote, including Crabtree. 3(. Please explain how there is a shortage of red snapper when the record reflect that red snapper season has been fished during spawning season, if my memory is correct since (1990). 4( By "definition" is red snapper or other species considered to be "overfished" when they are caught during their respective spawning season. 5(. Who and when have we been informed that red snapper and other species are "overfished" 6(. Is there a red snapper shortage in the Gulf? 7( When did or did Crabtree testify, in letter form, before Congress that there were more red snapper in the gulf now than there has been in decades, if my memory serves me correctly it was in 2013. 


Individuals like Capt. Tom Hilton that has made valid presentations, in person and\or in letter form, to the Gulf Council (that was rejected) could easily created some council member some real legal problems and they don't it yet. 


The majority of the G.C. enjoys the system of _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES" _and my hats off to them,for keeping us on defense for all these years. However, we can have some fun (legal in nature) and put the members of the council that voted for Amendment 40 on defense, with very little effort and a cost of about twenty dollars. 


If any of you don't believe _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES"_ watch the actions or omissions of our President he very good at it.


Thanks for you time, Les


----------



## ssrs69camaro

Les,although I don't understand legal mumbo jumbo,I do have $20.00 for the cause.Where else could I have this much fun for $20?? lol Thank you for the post,something has to be done for our legal access to OUR natural resources.


----------



## Getsome

LES KNIGHTEN said:


> I am or was a member of RFA (Recreational Fishing Alliance). I saw the light and dropped out of CCA years ago.
> 
> 
> Through out this post, I may site NOAA Fisheries, which includes their servants, agents or employees, the Gulf Council (GC) Members and each and every one of them. All of which are servants agents or employee of the Secretary Of Commerce.
> 
> I do most of my research, legal in nature (federal case law) myself. Sometimes, I get on the forum, in my opinion Captain Tom Hilton is the best we have on the forums in providing information and various violations of rules, policies and procedures to us and the G.C.. There are other individuals that post very informative information on the forums that I highly respect as well. I also respect the ones of us that know we are being shafted (to say the least) and don't mind manning up and posting it. The sad thing about their (our) effort is that nobody listens, other than a very few of us.
> 
> 
> "Team Crabtree" does what they want regardless of MSA, or any other statutory law, rules, policies and procedures. They are knowingly violating the Constitution and Statutory Law (civil and criminal in nature) with impunity on tax payers dime.
> 
> 
> In all due respect, I am aware of a something you may have not realized or may not know, it may provide some information of what's going on . After all, I'm not to smart, it took me about 10 years as a "Pro Se" litigant, when I was informed by an administrative law judge about the real legal system. Which he summed up in five words.
> 
> 
> In due course, I came to realize that there is an illegal excepted legal practice used at will by some lawyers, some state and some federal officials who knowingly violate, including but not limited to, the Constitution, Statutory Law and their own rules of procedure. The legal term the law judge stated to me years earlier was "_LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES." _The legal profession will never admit it, but it's real and far-reaching and the lawyers are getting rich. Facts are facts and they speak for it's self.The burden and expense in our system of justice is put on the party opposite to file an appeal to correct any injustice. In most situations the cost of litigation for an appeal is not an option we can afford, therefore we are forced to except it, whether it's law full or not. In my opinion that's where we stand as the result of the unlawfulness and the unconstitutional actions or omissions of NOAA Fisheries, the higher ups and let's not forget "Team Crabtree". It sounds hopeless but we all have a legal remedy. It wont be easy, but if a few of us would break out of the "system" take it legally to a higher level where we will be in a different forum pursuant to FRCP. I have personal knowledge it would make a big difference. We have the right to propound discovery under oath in a court of law.
> 
> Most individuals are not informed of our legal system of justice (justice is fairness) if you don't agree with decision you have a right to appeal, but you don't have the right to be heard on the merits not even in lower court and not in the Supreme Court. I have been there and done that.
> 
> 
> In respect to Amendment 40, when "Team Crabtree' finish playing with us, 40 will proceed to the higher ups where we again will have a limited time to respond. If 40 passes at the "higher up administrative level", what's next, if my memory serves me correctly the "administrative system of justice" LOL, allows us 30 days to file a specific action in federal court to correct an unlawful action that should have never happened in the first place and at our expense. This is a prime example of _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES'._
> 
> 
> I very seldom post anything, but a while back, I made my point on facebook with Gandygirl in respect to the national standards "best scientific data available" vs Statutory Law mandated in MSA "reliable data". I supported my position with federal court case law, she could not cite one District Court or Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court decision where a national standard trumped statutory law.There again _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES". _
> 
> 
> Since mine and Gandygirl friendly exchange their is another case. In my opinion, the national standards issue is best explained in the Court's Opinion in the case filed in the DC Court that involved the Commercial Sector and NOAA Fisheries et al. At this time I don't have the record before me. Regardless, in the opinion of the District Court Judge, If I recall correctly, she noted something to the effect that the national standards are not law, but she stated some individuals considered them law.
> 
> 
> One of the legal issues we face is that the Secretary Of Commerce by and through NOAA Fisheries considers the national standards as being law without citing any US federal court decisions in support of their position. I haven't been able to pin them down but in a federal complaint if the issue is raised they will have to cite a legal authority or loose that issue. I believe they take the position that the national standards have been (correlated?) thus are law and therefore trumps the Statutory Law mandated in MSA. That legal theory is totally unfounded it no more that an excuse. On the flip side if NOAA Fisheries takes the position that the national standards are considered law by correlation or what ever excuse they use. Within the national standards it clearly state something to the effect that they shall not or can not have the force of law. If this issue is litigated, depending on how it's briefed. In my opinion, legally, either way NOAA should loose, as a matter of law. Just another example of _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES". _
> 
> 
> The forum members that have elected to read this post this far. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you. it' to long.
> 
> 
> I would like to respectfully request to you to simply take a few minutes of you time and think of few issues that I'm submitting regarding, including but not limited to, Amendment 40. If you feel they are worthy of consideration, I don't have any problem in them being submitted to the G.C. or who ever. Some of issue are as follows: 1(. First and foremost, what is the compelling federal interest in the passing of Amendment 40 2(. Are there any voting members of the GC ineligible or may be ineligible to cast a vote, including Crabtree. 3(. Please explain how there is a shortage of red snapper when the record reflect that red snapper season has been fished during spawning season, if my memory is correct since (1990). 4( By "definition" is red snapper or other species considered to be "overfished" when they are caught during their respective spawning season. 5(. Who and when have we been informed that red snapper and other species are "overfished" 6(. Is there a red snapper shortage in the Gulf? 7( When did or did Crabtree testify, in letter form, before Congress that there were more red snapper in the gulf now than there has been in decades, if my memory serves me correctly it was in 2013.
> 
> 
> Individuals like Capt. Tom Hilton that has made valid presentations, in person and\or in letter form, to the Gulf Council (that was rejected) could easily created some council member some real legal problems and they don't it yet.
> 
> 
> The majority of the G.C. enjoys the system of _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES" _and my hats off to them,for keeping us on defense for all these years. However, we can have some fun (legal in nature) and put the members of the council that voted for Amendment 40 on defense, with very little effort and a cost of about twenty dollars.
> 
> 
> If any of you don't believe _"LAW IS WHAT LAW DOES"_ watch the actions or omissions of our President he very good at it.
> 
> 
> Thanks for you time, Les


Les, thank you for the post. Very enlightening and good information. I typically don't donate to most organizations because in the end, most of them will serve their own interests over mine. This is a movement I could get behind.


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## Bean Counter

Is an organization or individual going to file suit? If so where do I send the money?


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## tbaxl

Bean Counter said:


> Is an organization or individual going to file suit? If so where do I send the money?


Put me down for $40.00 if it helps get the ball rolling. Who get the money Les?


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## LES KNIGHTEN

Bean Counter said:


> Is an organization or individual going to file suit? If so where do I send the money?



More likely than not, I will filed the lead complain as a "Pro Se" litigant. I'm hopeful that others will file suits as well. I have been waiting for the mid term elections to see who wins the Senate. 


Thank you for your support and interest, Les


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## 2RC's II

LES KNIGHTEN said:


> More likely than not, I will filed the lead complain as a "Pro Se" litigant. I'm hopeful that others will file suits as well. I have been waiting for the mid term elections to see who wins the Senate.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your support and interest, Les


 Heck put me down for $100 which amounts to about 20 gallons of fuel which I will not need since we can't fish.


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## LES KNIGHTEN

tbaxl said:


> Put me down for $40.00 if it helps get the ball rolling. Who get the money Les?



Lk post 12, Nov. 2, 2014



Thank you for you interest in my post. 


To answer your question regarding expenses at this point and time it's on me and shouldn't cost anyone any money. 


Because of the numerous member of, including but not limited to, the Gulf Council. I will always need some help implementing this matter. I have previously used this same method against a high ranking attorney in some litigation I was involved in before, it worked to my satisfaction. This time, I don't know, but it good for starters. 


If a group of individuals are willing to "legally" take "Team Crabtree" on, I am very willing and will do my best. I would enjoy taking on this issue with other individuals who share the same values and interest. 


If we give it our best shot, it would be very beneficial in this matter if we some how remain cool headed, fair minded, honest, professional, and trust worthy with each other.


At this point and time, this is my project, there are two other requirements, that I personally demand, with one exception. 


"Team Crabtree" if any of you are out there, please take notice. I can accept being fairly defeated, but don't cheat me to defeat me. Trust me, I have been known to take issue with it, in the proper federal forum and I wont have any problem naming each and every one of you as defendants.


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## LES KNIGHTEN

Getsome said:


> Les, thank you for the post. Very enlightening and good information. I typically don't donate to most organizations because in the end, most of them will serve their own interests over mine. This is a movement I could get behind.



Thank you for your time and interest, Les


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## 2RC's II

I was as serious as I could possibly be!


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