# Fisheries Issues for the Recreational Angler!!



## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

Recreational Anglers Wake Up!



I don?t write this post to do anything other than inform the largest group {The Recreational Fisherman} in this situation that has the loudest voice and could also have the best argument to be heard and their will respected by the powers that be but evidently won?t get off their duffs and be heard. The recreational angler in the past has sat idle while the charter industry begged you to help them in this fight yes fight because that?s what it is and has been to the point they have decided to try to obtain some stability so as to be able to stay afloat amidst high fuel costs, reduced seasons and bag limits. I have watched this scenario for 13 years now and the charter industry now has decided to take care of their own. These plans that are being worked on are much farther along towards reality than most of you realize. When you can go to a public forum with NMFS people present and witness this being talked about out in the open and NMFS officials telling charter boat operators that they would welcome a plan that could consist of the for hire boats being moved into their own category away from the recreational and dragging part of the TAC with them I can only hope some of you realize how late in the ballgame it really is! I hold no grudge against the charter boat operators and owners because they are trying to survive economically. They have no vendetta against the recreational angler and I know many of them personally from Panama City Florida to Dauphin Island Alabama.



There are plans being made that will have a direct impact on your ability to snapper fish in the northern gulf and if the recreational users don?t get informed and personally involved you are the user group that will take the hit! No other user group has even a fraction of the positive impact to our fisheries and coastal economies that the recreational angler does yet I have watched and listened to them gripe, moan and complain until it has sickened myself and others but this time after its over they?ll be nothing left to wish for.



First before we point fingers at other user groups lets realize that through bad data on fish stocks the National Marine Fisheries intends to squeeze the users so hard that most will give up and just fade into the sunset. This is not an opinion it is a fact. NMFS has never seen a reduction in TAC, size limitation or a shorter season or closure alternative they didn?t like. No one can convince me that one of their strategies in the past has not been to keep the commercial and recreational at odds with each other so to diffuse any real chance of a cohesive effort to hold their feet to the fire and demand correct data and to do their job which is to manage our fishery on snapper and other species in the northern gulf. The snapper fishery is rebounding and seems now that that rebound is coming so fast it could spell trouble for other species. I have fished the northern gulf since 1970 and have never seen the quality and quantity on public and private reefs that I?ve witnessed this past two years. 



If you choose to get involved look at the argument for different sectors in the gulf as snapper are more abundant in some areas than in others which could allow for different bag limits in different sectors.

Beware of the NMFS including places that have never had a viable snapper population but include that areas data so as to build their so called ?over fishing argument?.

Push the NMFS to realize that when we throw these 15 inch snappers back we are wasting our resource. It isn?t rocket science to figure this out and maybe we should just keep the first ones we catch which might allow for a larger per angler bag limit due to anglers not killing many to keep a few.



Definitely beware of MPA?s {Marine Protected Areas} because the NMFS get?s to figure out where those will be and what if they close waters close in and they break you from fishing because to comply you have to travel large distances just to be able to wet your line.



Tell the NMFS no to reducing reef permit areas and push them to enlarge them. The panhandle of Florida needs more and larger reef areas. There are people trying to get them to enlarge existing zones take the time to join their effort.



Look into the dreaded fishermen lottery that is already being discussed as a management tool to control {reduce} the effort of the recreational angler. This would devastate recreational anglers, as you would purchase a chance to get to fish. What happens the years you don?t get to participate- are you just going to sit and look at your boat in that expensive stall or high-n-dry all season. This one can evaporate your right to fish real quick!



Are you aware that currently in my area that recreational anglers put out almost all the private reefs which greatly help build this fishery. Make sure the NMFS hears that on a regular basis. Charter operators are in such a financial pinch that their reef building effort is down badly.



Make the NMFS aware that you don?t agree with the aquaculture proposal, they tabled that proposition for now but believe me they will bring it back up. I think they were just testing the water to see how hot it was on that one. We can?t allow our natural bait supply to be plundered to feed their caged fish so the meat will be shipped to unknown countries. The danger of that and the danger of those fish escaping and breeding with our wild fish could be catastrophic. I myself question whether NMFS even has the legal right to allow and control aquaculture in the gulf. Their answer was that it was a ?fishing effort?. In other words here we go again government people setting up a way that private enterprise can come in and use resources that are public and possibly destroy something that the public should have the rights to for someone?s own personal gain. That one even smells bad!



The northern Gulf Of Mexico is a unique place that all of us love and enjoy. I truly feel that as a whole all the users from commercial to for hire to recreational fishermen and women respect this vital resource much more than NMFS realizes but if you want to continue to experience it YOU HAVE TO GET INVOLVED, no longer can you sit on the sidelines and expect to retain your privileges. The recreational angler makes up the biggest sector of users by far yet are headed for the smallest right to use please do your part to see that doesn?t happen.

Captain Mike Lilly 

:hoppingmad :hoppingmad :hoppingmad


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## cobe killer (Apr 13, 2008)

capt. mike thank you for that very informative post. ipray that the rec. fishermen will heed your warnings. capt. paul redman has been trying for years to do the same thing and knows your frustration in this matter. we are trying but we need more fishermen to get involved *right now. *every post topic on this forum shoud be about fishermen telling what they are doing to help this effort, or one day soon it will be called *pensacola's good old days fishing forum because there will be no new roports to post just read the achives.*


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

Thank you mike for your input.

The sector separation you mention was the least of the s.o.s.(save our selves) proposal.I didn't read anything about V.M.S.or e-logs we of s.o.s.volentiered for at our cost.The core of the plan is to get better data for all fishermen rec.sector or for-hire sector.We all can agree we need better data now we are all over the barrel. I admit to the request for separation of sectors in some views nmfs.already separates us in conversation and confusion on how to collect BETTER DATA.Why is better data needed? To prove what? That there are more Red Snapper in the Gulf of Mexico than ever in history dew to artificial reefs and oil rigs (quarts crystal sand does not grow Red Snapper structure is imperative to the growth of all reef fish no coral reefs here in Alabama). That for more than fifty years have been adding to an almost nonexistent Red Snapper population in the northern Gulf of Mexico. Yes "almost" nonexistent (sunk boat or some rocks 30 miles off shore is all there was if you could dead reckon your way, they didn't have g.p.s.) I am speaking as 6th+ generation fisherman and the way my history was told to me Gulf wide travel was done from Alabama to catch & salt Red Snapper for sale in Mobile markets.There was NO VIABLE STOCK IN THE NORTHERN GULF this is the DATA I was raised on. Little word data? but it makes for big shot gun of which NMFS. Can use with bird shot or a slug. I recommend to the pure recreation fisherman to get involved but do so with all the data WE can get. Volunteer for a duck stamp type of program so we can give nmfs.all the data we can because this is our history in the making and it is time to turn the tide of the nmfs.poor data excuse get rid of this bird shoot approach and break out the slugs on this devastating 64 day season.Yes it is sad recreational fishermen only have so few days to catch snapper try making a living in that time frame then loose some of that to weather with no make up days. All of these things in the s.o.s plan were derived by National Marine Fisheries not s.o.s just look at the AD HOC Recreational Red Snapper committee agenda. We just took that agenda picked at it and served it up willingly. Our biggest agenda is real time accurate data nmfs. will accept so we can get viability our business. I believe Fun fishing, for food and or trophy fishing should always be available to the public ,for-hire,commercial fishermen alike. Always remember the bigger they are the more eggs spawned. (Catch it on camera after the fight) and release the big ones and EAT the SMALLER they taste allot better.



Capt. Eugene Coley.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

If enacted the SOS plan willfurther limit the ability of private boat owners to recreationally fish for andharvest red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico. The SOS plan sounds innocent enough "get better data". 

Even the name of the red snapper SOS plan "Save OUR Selves" impliesits intent.With the"OUR" of the plan relating to the fact that SOS is for the "good"of the few charter boat operators who support the planversus very "bad" for the many other recreational anglers. 

Bottom lineno matter how you work the math under the SOS plan, recreational anglers will suffer further red snapper bag reductions and shorter seasons if therecreational red snapper sector is divided between charter boat operators and oher recreational fisherman. 

I personally believe that ultimatlely thegoal behind the SOS plan is that the main charter boat operators supporting the plan also own a commercial red snapper IFQ .These charter boat operators,once SOS is enactedwill then push tomove their commercial IFQ shares into their charter businessand expect anglersto pay foreachred snapper caught in addition to the cost of thecharter. 

Finally, What will be the next move for SoS group surely you all will move for grouper, Amberjack and all other TAC managed fishto be split out from the recreational sector forcharter boat operator individual TAC.

Why would charter boat operatorsstop at red snapper when the plan is to SAVE OUR SELVES?

TheSOS plan sounds good"get better data".

YOU CAN DRESS UPA PIG BUT IN THE END YOU HAVE A PIG WITH CLOTHES ON.

People don't be fooled SOS is not a good plan for anyone but a few charter baot anglers.

Mark W.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Capt Coley - <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I agree that NMFS needs more data and I am not one to stifle any debate on how to get there. The SOS plan should be viewed and compared to competing ideas.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">There seem to be two estimates in question- <o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">1.How many fish areout there and what is their size distribution?(the total species population).<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">2.How many of themand of what size should it be legal tocatch.(TAC). <o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I'm assuming number 2 is derived from some science and math being applied to number 1. The SOS plan only attacks better accounting for number 2. We need to have better confidence in the first number along with better accountability in the second.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Regarding the suppositions and comments in your post:<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">


> The sector separation you mention was the least of the s.o.s.(save our selves) proposal.


<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I disagree that the sector separationis a small component of the plan.In the prologue to the plan summary it was pretty clear about the importance of the split to the plan. The split was listed as the first step of the proposed implementation plan also.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Excerpt from the plan:<o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 6pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Courier New'">This is no solution at all and the reason is simple: <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">We are professional fishers who operate for-profit businesses. [/B]Both the National Research Council and the National Marine Fisheries Service agree on this point.<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> [/B]Sure,<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> [/B]we may all fall under the recreational sector allocation umbrella for fisheries management purposes, but we approach fishing from an entirely different perspective. <SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Our opinion is simply that we can no longer afford to be attached to a recreational sector of unknown quantities, effort, landings and unregulated growth.<SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Courier New'"> <SPAN style="COLOR: #1f5080"><o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 6pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Courier New'">1. <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Secure our allocation. [/B]We would begin by obtaining a ?control date? from the NMFS which would freeze the current percentages of recreational sector allocation between the private recreational anglers and the For-Hire Sector based upon landings history. We don?t want anything more than our fair share: only that what we have historically caught.<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> [/B]Then we would obtain an agreement from NMFS that the percentages will remain fixed for a minimum of two years to provide enough time to get the proper monitoring tools in place by NMFS and the industry.<o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Courier New'"><o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">


> I didn't read anything about V.M.S.or e-logs we of s.o.s.volentiered for at our cost.


<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">It was prominently displayed in the plan as two of the top three points in a five point plan.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Excerpt from the plan:<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">2. <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Put monitoring tools in place.[/B] The next step is to decide what monitoring tools we want. For starters, we think just two: VMS and electronic logbooks. These tools will provide us the opportunity of real-time catch reporting and will determine, at a high level of accuracy, who is fishing and what they are catching.<o></o><P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 6pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">3. <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Professionalize the industry: [/B]Monitoring tools such as VMS and electronic log books will give scientists and managers better data for management decisions and will give the industry accountability, so that when fish stocks rebound, the information can be trusted and catch levels can be increased. Increasing the fishermen?s role in data collection and management of the fishery will instill a positive stake in data collection and foster a proactive attitude and participation to further enhance fisheries management.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I favor a plan that <o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A) Does not splitthe TAC % among for hire and not for hire within the recreational sector and does not decrease the overall TAC % going to the recreational sector (which provides theeconomy the highest pound for pound economic benefit).<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B)Improves data quality for number 2 and may be extended to impove data quality of number 1.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">C) Provides public visibility to the collected data while protecting any proprietary or individual's data.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">D) Provides a free or low cost means of allowing data input from the entire recreational sector thus providing better data for the entire sector.<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">E) Provides continuous improvement through mandated periodic scientific and management review<o></o><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">F) Provides at least partial self funding via nominal additional licensing fee for reef fish or species specific stamp(s)<o></o>


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm glad to see both sides are being represented in this debate.

I'm also glad to see the return of one of the first things we at the Reef Fish Restoration Association thought of once upon a time.

The Snapper Stamp.

Regionally, we are the only area that really goes after snapper. Sure, they're caught elsewhere but it's not such an integral part of the fishing community as it is here.

I, for one, would gladly add and extra $5, $10 or $20 to my yearly fee if you called it a snapper stamp and all funding went to help improve flawed data.

This would tell us who truly is targeting these fish, who is catching what and the FWC and NMFS would be able to be track catches and results.

It's this or we're looking at a "sportfish" status within the next five years.


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

The snapper stamp has been talked about for a few years but her's my two cents on it for what its worth- NMFS would LOVE to get the recreational angler to submit to that, plus a fishermens lottery and to bow down and let them pick where {marine protected areas} and when you can fish {closed seasons}- who and who doesn't have a right to fish {lottery} boy you folks at RFA can rest assured Crabtree will be all ears on those proposals! I am not trying to pick an argument with the RFA but that is playing into just about all thats on Crabtree's Christmas wishlist! 

Remember we are talking about a species that is so prevalent in the northern gulf that you can't catch the other species they are so thick!! We need as recreational fishermen and women need to unite and raise h"?:> at every appointed and elected official we can find. We need to find out who appointed Crabtree and his bunch of so called scientists and make them accountable!!!!

If this fishery was truly in trouble off the alabama,northwest florida, mississippi and louisiana coasts I would agree to all the above but its not and the NMFS is the only entity that says it is and I' am sick and tired of building this resource for them to screw it up. I care about this fishery ask anyone that knows me personally and they will tell you that myself, Eugene Coley and David Walter have put more structure on the bottom of the gulf than anyone in the last few years,

. Call the Alabama Marine Resources Division that permits reefs off the alabama coast and the panhandle and ask them whose signatures are most prevalent and it will be these three. 

The worst case scenario right now is for us to become divided, anyway my two cents is more than used up.

Captain Mike Lilly:usaflag


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## Death From Above (Sep 28, 2007)

Maybe our new president elect Barack Hussein Hussein Obama can help ensure equal opportunity to catch red snapper for all. I will write him a letter and suggest that others follow my lead.

Obama, Obama..........

he's not white he's black ..............

he's gonna help get our red snapper back!!


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Hi Eugene,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">It is admirable that you are willing to, at great expense; sacrifice your right, as an American, to privacy, in order to provide "data" to the NMFS.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">If you sincerely believe that this is going to make a difference, why don't you go ahead and begin that portion of the SOS plan today, on a volunteer basis. It is unnecessary to divide the Recreational Sector in order to accomplish that "noble" goal. It would be fascinating to see how many of the Charters would actually participate in a voluntary monitoring program out of sheer concern for data collection.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Somehow, this plan looks more like a bartering attempt between the Charter Operators and the NMFS. You give us year round fishing and get those pesky monkey boats off the water and we'll give you data. Yes, it is that transparent. Anyone with one eye open can see what is going on here.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">It is indisputable that the Commercial and Charter Industries put the most pressure on our fishery. Even your own statistics prove that point.Considering this, there was a critical element completely missing from your SOS plan.How many of the Commercial or Charter Captains would be removed from the fishery if the NMFS implemented an automatic life time ban on all commercial and Charter operators that get caught cheating? Now, that would give our fishery a real chance to survive. The little slaps on the hand you've been getting have done nothing to deter many in your combined industries from breaking fishery management rules in order to increase your personal incomes. Profit is a great motivator to cheat, therefore; all for-profit fishermen should be held to the highest standards.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">No matter how you sugar coat the SOS plan, the way you have written it, the Private Recreational Fisherman would be forced off the water. That will never be acceptable to me or any private recreational fishermen.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I appreciate that you depend on the water to make your living but a lot of people that support recreational fishermen depend on our sport to make their living. This plan would have a devastating effect on fishing & tackle retailers, recreational boating industry, marinas, dry storage, towing insurance, etc... What about the effect this plan would have on the survivability of their businesses?<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">The fact that the allocations need to be adjusted is obvious. As you know, a very small group of fishermen currently enjoy 51% of the entire Red Snapper allocation. That needs to change. That inequity is denying every Charter Operator and Recreational Fisherman their fair and equitable treatment in the allocation process.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">There are no sacred cows in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">America</st1lace></st1:country-region>. We need to join forces and demand that the NMFS treat ALL fishermen fairly. The resource does NOT belong to a few, it belongs to ALL of us and we should share it equally.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">You speak of your heritage and the water as if only the "old timers" deservean exclusive right to enjoy and profit off the richness of the marine environment. Does that mean that my grandkids shouldn't have a right to become a Charter Operator or Commercial Fisherman or even the right to just fish recreationally because you want to claim the resource exclusivelyfor you and yours? I know many Americans have the entitlement mentality but I personally don't feel like the rest of us owe you or any other "old timer" anything.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">There are many industries that are suffering from economic hardships these days. The fact that the Charter Industry is suffering right along with the rest of the economy is no reason to propose a plan that will force the multitudes to forfeit their access to the Gulf so that a few of you can prosper.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">The tall and short of this entire conversation is this: Either you are Recreational or you are Commercial. If you want to be considered Commercial, start begging for scraps from the "old timers" that were "Commercial" first.Let's see how you wouldlike thatschemeif _YOU_ are the onegetting scraps of theallocation pie. <o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">Candy Hansard<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">For those of you who would like more background on this issue, go to the forum thread titled "Plan to take 1/2 our TAC!" There, you can read the entire SOS Plan that is being proposed by Eugene and several very wealthy Charter Operators.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">Recreational Fishermen and Women and Spear Fishers,Wake up and defend your rights before they are gone.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">If you would like to join aRecreational Fishermens Movement for Fairness in Fishing, contact me at [email protected] <o></o>


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## roofordie (Sep 24, 2008)

> *markw4321 (11/28/2008)*If enacted the SOS plan willfurther limit the ability of private boat owners to recreationally fish for andharvest red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico. The SOS plan sounds innocent enough "get better data".
> 
> Even the name of the red snapper SOS plan "Save OUR Selves" impliesits intent.With the"OUR" of the plan relating to the fact that SOS is for the "good"of the few charter boat operators who support the planversus very "bad" for the many other recreational anglers.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the summarizing capt. Mikes post for me. Me not read so good


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## roofordie (Sep 24, 2008)

YEAH, what Candy said!!!!!!!!!! :clap:clap:clap


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

candy



There is to much hotheaded jump to conclusions, reading between lines,you don't know me at all.Please!read this again.



That there are more Red Snapper in the Gulf of Mexico than ever in history due to artificial reefs and oil rigs (quarts crystal sand does not grow Red Snapper structure is imperative to the growth of all reef fish no coral reefs here in Alabama). That for more than fifty years have been adding to an almost nonexistent Red Snapper population in the northern Gulf of Mexico. Yes "almost" nonexistent (sunk boat or some rocks 30 miles off shore is all there was if you could dead reckon your way, they didn't have g.p.s.) I am speaking as 6th+ generation fisherman and the way my history was told to me Gulf wide travel was done from Alabama to catch & salt Red Snapper for sale in Mobile markets.There was NO VIABLE STOCK IN THE NORTHERN GULF this is the DATA I was raised on.

Those were my words. 



This is your words!!!!!!

You speak of your heritage and the water as if only the "old timers" deserve an exclusive right to enjoy and profit off the richness of the marine environment.





If you can take ANYTHING FROM MY Heritage commit that I deserve anything more than you or any other "monkey" as you said! You are sooooo! wrong about me and our sos plan.It would seem focus is lost on the problem "total number of fish in the Gulf" NMFS has the mag stev act to follow it is a LAW I do follow the law of the land as my GOD said I must. Take these words to heart next YOU sling some mud .Stay on the words not the spaces.



My participation in the sos plan is motivated fiance or lak there of if it hurts your feelings I AM sorry but me taking people recreation fishing DOES NOT mean i belong to the rec. sector.I work for hire so please show me were any other business for hire is not a commercial business. How would you make living leaving 301 days unused and if you lost a day or more(of the 64) you can't make it up. Yes I know there are other fish in the sea come fish al.and show me how justify molesting the red snapper (snapper become bycatch ) Remember it is a predator world in the sea were the weak and injured will die I can't justify this for rec or hire. So I do any other work legally possible and it can be tuff finding work.



So again I say to the pure rec. fisherman gather your millions read the mag.stev.act get your hammer and lets get constructive and show up at the nmfs. meetings and take the fight to them.



My faith is in god no matter the outcome of this there are better things ahead.



capt. Eugene Coley.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

needtofish



I know vms & elog were in the sos proposal. i was referring to the letter at the top of this discussion.



capt. e coley


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification Capt Coley.

I still do not see how the SOS plan addresses the poor information used to estimate the entire Red Snapper population.

Asyou mentioned- the reason the seasons are shortened and bag limites lowered is because the NMFS is underestimateing the total number of Red Snapper.

Just reporting that you caught a lot ofRed Snapper is not going to convince NMFS that there are more fish. It's going to convince them that you are in a race to catch the last one left and make them shorten the season and reduce bag limits furhter.

In addition to adequately accounting for what the recreational sector catches, the NMFS needs to do a better job at accurately estimating how many fish are out there to be caught.

If somebody could produce an explanation of how the SOS plan is going to help with more accurately estimating the total red snapper population It wouold be most informative. I don't get that from anyhthing I've read.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

need2fish



Little do most people realize catch data is one of the ways nmfs. count the fish.Another one of the ways they ride to natural bottom no particular spot "just natural bottom" no matter what the fish finder say's is down there they try catch a fish.So it is my belief all artificial reefs/oil rigs were most of us on the alabama coast and west are not counted. Imagine how that and this effects the numbers when Alabama's catch history is so high (approx.40%total rec. tac.)these numbers are on record accurately but they only credit us with(approx.18% of the total stock) Sounds like the poor data we all refer to.Think about this every rec. fisherman buying a state permit for saltwater adds to the data by averages weather or not they actually catch them or not.That is why all the data we can get is necessary .To touch on a remark by Candy if just buying vms. was enough I would have it already.. It is not accountable to nmfs. unless they approve it.



It has to be approved method's by the law (nmfs.) 



thank you need2fish for listening with a open mind.I need to fish also.



Capt. E. Coley


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## wirebiter (Jun 4, 2008)

Capt Coley,

From what I have seen of your proposal it has some good pointsfor instancemaking people acctually for count their catch. There are a couple of problems I have with it though. Thebiggest problem I have, besides loosing thesupport in fighting the commercial sector for our right to fish, is that you want to control the charter market. You want to use data that you have collected ahead of time, sounds like you have planned well for this actually,to say hey this is what I have caught in the past and I "deserve" this much in the future. This is CRAP! What about the guys who don't have that data, or the ones who are trying to get into the charter business. By your proposal the only way that they could grow their businessis by breaking their "alloted" quota for their vessel. Which I am sure you would have stern punishments in the SOS plan. Another problem is the fact that recreational fisherman have to work away from fishing. For me and many others fishing is recreation, not business.We can notpersonally go to south Florida or other places to lobby forour fishing rights, as much aswe may want to.Recreational fishermandon't have the time or the lobbyist to protectour fishing rights from greedy charter boat captains, as well as the commercial captains. Don't get me wrong, not all of the charters captainsare greedy, there are some good ones out there that are fighting you for good reason. Theylove fishing and are trying to do good by the sport, not their bank accounts.Bottom line is your plan aims at weakening all but the strongest charters while setting up to muscle out the so called"monkey boats" that I and so many others enjoy taking out when we can.You fish for a living I understand that, but you don't deserve special treatment because of it. A business has a certain amount of risk, live with it.Why not try something that helps all fisherman, and not just yourself. If you truly love to fish as you have said, you and the rest of the SOS would come up with something that helped thesport instead of helping the divide and conquer situation that the commercial sector is quietly salivating over.

wirebiter


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

wirebiter



I don't know how all crap you refer applies to me read every word i have posted here sound's like your still between the lines with Candy. as far as control of the market you really don't have a clue.try to control a boat bank on zero i am not some big head boat i have large vessel built comfort in 1982 it was not certified passenger's until 1999 write when most crap started my average trip is less than 1500.00 per day sound good multiply by 64 days at best 96,000.00 per yr. for the best the real numbers are more like 1,350.00 and 50 days for red snapper my specialty without them it is bad the last total is 67,500 i get 10% of that you might ask why do it at all I love to teach people to fish and see them next year doing what i thought them. So please DON'T SAY I am trying to take from you I didn't say I deserve anything in my reference to Alabama's catch history I said look this DATA it is on file with nmfs.I don't like it ether because it is flawed against all of us rec. and for-hire pay attention Please. And as for affording lobbyist I CAN'T AFFORD MYSELF. but get to the meetings i can and make the best of it I can.



I GOD WE TRUST....



Capt. Coley


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

Wirebiter

I would like to respond to your last post on this issue. I have heard many posts where the recreational fisherman or woman want to criticize people who have gotten deeply involved in this issue. As I said in an earlier post they all want it their way but the extent of their involvement is to complain and gripe and moan about what others are doing. I personally know Capt. Eugene Coley and Candy Hansrd. Capt. Eugene trying to muscle anyone out or from getting into the charter business is a joke! He runs 1 boat and believe me no-one is making even sustainable money in the charter business right now! He is smart enough to realize the fox is in control of the henhouse (NMFS). Therefore he is trying along with some others that I know and respect-to find a way to combat the bad DATA.( Which is the core of this problem. NMFS has to use what DATA that is RECOGNIZED as being ACCEPTED!!!!!) I also know that Candy Hansrd is a fisherwomen who loves the gulf and its habitat. She has worked long and hard to help artificial reef building in her area of the panhandle and held state and federal employees feet to the fire for OUR fishery. She developed The Emerald Coast Reef Association and its members are involved putting out structures and writing letters and making phone calls to the right people trying to make a difference. I must say to all the recreational people watching these two fine individuals have a difference of opinion if you want to be involved DO SOMETHING instead of complain!

I wish the recreational anglers could see that if any user group is behind in this its them. I am a Capt. for hire but I run recreational anglers boats and fish only my structures in the gulf. I don't need to even fish the public stuff because I spend thousands of dollars every year of my own money helping to create this habitat and fishery. You recreational people don't realize it but Capt. Coley and I have deployed as many as 300 reefs for fishermen in a single winter and 90% of them for recreational anglers! I am also a reef builder and I build reefs for some recreational anglers but if you add them up their contribution (reefs built) per thousands or millions of users is still very low compared to how many take from this resource daily. Now remember when you step up to ridicule anyone that is just trying to make some kind of headway in a bad situation get informed THEN GET INVOLVED!

Thanks

Capt. MIke Lilly


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

CAPT Coley

At least in an around about way you commit to the fact thatthe SAVE OUR SELVES planthrows the recreational fisherman under the bus so charter fisherman can attempt to make a living. I hope you guys enjoy it if and when you get it. The fracturethe SoS plan will create in the fishing community will cause pain and be a source of conflict among fisherman for generations to come and will cause a further decline in an already wrecked economy along the Gulf Coast. I pray toGod that you charter folks don't get you way, but with NMFS at the helm my hopes are not high. NMFS would love to further divide and concur the recreational fishing community.

Manyrec fisherman here have also placedreefs last year at theirown expense and currently support National and local conservation and recreational fishing organizationswithmembership fees.Rec fisherman have been involvedwriting multiple letters,telling their storiesduring the public comment time held at NMFSmeetingsfor years withno effect. Maybe one day and organization will pull all rec fisherman togetherraise big money, file the right lawsuit, get to the right senatorthat will make a difference.I can onlypray that day is sooner than later..

Mark W


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

thank you Captain Mike 



that is all i won't knowledgeable debate Candy I will call tomorrow if you like. I am knot out to get anyone but status quo by nmfs. has got to go.



check out joez has some good stuff on their web site http://www.reeffishra.com/ check it everybody


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## wirebiter (Jun 4, 2008)

I don't see how you can say that you aren't out to control the market and muscle people out with the help of the NMFS. Look at your name for crying out loud, SOS, which means Save Our SELVES. If you truly cared for the "situation" then you would have named it "Save Our Sport". But since you are trying to save your skin then to hell with everyone else. As for the not saying that you deserve a certain number then no the SOS plan doesnt say that exactly, but does say our fair share based on historical landings. Here is what it does say:



1. Secure our allocation. We would begin by obtaining a ?control date? from the NMFS which would freeze the current percentages of recreational sector allocation between the private recreational anglers and the For-Hire Sector based upon landings history. We don?t want anything more than our fair share: only that what we have historically caught.



I know more about what I am saying than you would want people to think. Because of the wording of your plan one has to read between the lines to see what you are doing. It is crap and you and you partners know it and are hoping that the recreational fisherman will stand by idle while you rape us. I like many others in the sport do what I can to fix the problems, but not at the expense of everyone else. I work to build fish habitats, follow the rules, and try to help fix the politics that are involved. I don't just gripe and complain I do my part. Maybe you guys should try other things or even better work with other people and groups to help everyone, not just you and your buddies.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

Learn for your self how nmfs. works then try that argument you like so much control the market when have you heard the nmfs. help anyone but themselves.



S.O.S. save our selves yes sir.



So I say to you again gather your millions learn the process AND GO S.Y.S. Save Your Sport.We are not waiting for you to quit fighting with everybody ours is in play bring the millions it wont do anything but help yours and our cause. 

Being mad at me for being honest i do not deny sector separation.As for conspiring with nmfs. If picking up every paper on that little table at the back of the meeting room/hall is conspiracy yes I am.Get them read them compile your own plan keep your ears open mouth shut at the meetings you will learn so much on the American way of due process.Dont get mad at me get mad at the process use it to the best of your ability.I droped out high school @ age 15 3/4 I seem to have learned enough to be here teaching you about due process.You sound educated try these things I have hinted to you. 



as for HELL no thanks. GOD is captain I'm just the Mate



Capt.Eugene Coley


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Capt Coley - thanks for trying to explain how the catch history is used as input to the total species population estimation but I am not following the explanation at all. 

From your repone I understand that somebody rides out to hard bottom and tries to catch fish and if they don't catch any they say thereare no fish on that spot. I also understand that NMFS doesn't use data from artificial reefs as input to their estimation process. I just don't see how the SOS plan willchange the NMFS estimation process for total species count - all it does is split up the TAC. The only way I can see the SOS planincreasing the overall species estimation is if the total speciespopulation estimatewas derived from TAC. 

Seems to me one of the biggest problems with NMFS is transparency of the TAC calculation process and viability to the public of the data. I've been all over the NMFS website and can't find any kind of information that would provide a description of the process and define the inputs and outputs of it. That's probably why most recreational fishermen throw up their hands and say forget it- nobody can explain in plain English what the process is and how the inputs are gathered and where they are gathered from. It is certainly frustrating. I don't see anything in the SOS plan that addresses that transparency problem or that would ultimately lead to use of generally agreed upon and accurate estimation processes and inputs. To me what it says is - 

1. Take 61% of the current Recreational Sector TAC

2. Take 2 years of data from charter operators recording their catch with the fishing season each year staying open until the total charter operator catch reaches the 61% recreational TAC limit.

3. Grant future year individual allocations (in perpetuity?) to charter operators based on tier individual pro rata share of the the total operator's catch over the 2 year data gathering period.

How is that going to increase the overall TAC? Sounds to me like it's just going to regulate what's there a little better and only for the charter portion of the recreational sector.


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

Need2fish

Remember this-if we can get recreational fishermen and women in the loop to provide Data then we can INCLUDE the massive amounts of fish that inhabit these artificial structures in the gulf. The charter boats Fish these structures so it will make a huge difference in showing fish stocks. We have to find a way to include this habitat because this is where most of the fishery lives! Hope this helps.

Capt. Mike Lilly


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Capt Mike - 

That only helps if you outline exactly how including this improved catchdata is going to translate into a higher estimation of total species population. I can't see where just having better accountability for the recreational sector via better data is not going to change the estimate of the total species population. 

Maybe I'm just dense - I'm an engineer not a mathmatician so bear with my simple example.

Example 

NMFS says there are 1 million Red Snapper total in the upper Gulf.

Of that they say that total allowable catch is 10% of the total population - that's a TAC of 100,000 fish.

Per the SOS plan:

Commercial can catch 51% or 51,000 fish

Charter for hire can catch 61% of the Recreational Sector49% allowance or 28.890 fish (.61 * 49,000)

Recreational not for hire can catch .39% of the Recreational Sector49% allowance or 19.110 fish (.39 * 49,000)

Sothe plan may improve the the accuracy of the data through real time collection. All I see thatdoing is telling you with more accuracyWHEN you reach the 49,000 fish limit. Unless you think that the speed at which the 49.000 fish are caught (e.g. 2 months vs. 4 months) will cause NMFS to revise their original estmate of 1 million fish - I don't see any benefit to the recreational fisherman. 

I feel this entire thread just bolsters my argument that there is no visibility of the process or understandingas to how the fish population is determined and how the TAC is determined. Maybe someone can produce a coherent explanation of the process. So far all I've heard is we want better data. That's like saying I'm for solving world hunger. What's the process? Is there anyone else here that feels the way I do or am I truly that dense?


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

Need2fish

You just made my argument!!! If WE can prove that there is 100 million snapper in the northern gulf and the catch is 10% per year then our TAC goes to 10 million pounds instead of what ever the current TAC is. But to prove this we must go by their guidelines as to how DATA is collected. Now here comes your key point to remember- this is how the SOS plan was adopted! They took all the tools (VMS, electronic logbooks etc) and just handed back to the AD-HOC committee and said we will do all this- at that point it was a public record that this was a formal proposal that they HAD to deal with. People that go to these meetings and raise h#@* must realize that they pay no attention to them and I have watched the NMFS and our Gulf Council members playing games on their laptops while these people commercial, charter and recreational bellow out their problems. After they get through complaining they go right back to their agenda. Well we now realize that we must change their agenda to include our needs if we can prove to them how massive the fish stocks are in the northern gulf!! I hope this helps you as that is about as simple as I can put it!!

Capt. Mike Lilly


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## wirebiter (Jun 4, 2008)

If you really want the support of everyone maybe a rewrite or rethinking of your plan would help. I agree with some ideas of your plan, but not the methods. If you were to incorporate the rec fisherman instead of throw them aside, it might get support. There are ideas that would work I am sure for more than just the charters, while still helping the charters. It looks to me, and many others obviously, that you have gone about this for you and your buddies only to hell with everyone else. There are many groups that want what you want, but are trying to help the situation as a whole, not just a small group. One idea is to make a program that has fish numbers, and sizes caught submitted by both charters and rec fisherman. This could be done by having a pool of volunteers that has a lottery every year. The selected people could be given an reward of some type like possibly an additional catch. The leg work would be done by willing participants and give more accurate data to the health of our local fisheries. No it is not perfect, but an idea that could be looked at instead of dividing the TAC and freezing catch numbers based on historical landings. Something like this could work if parties sat down and talked and figured a way to make it work or maybe better ways to reach the same goal. It may not help today, but data for the next year could be compiled for use later.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Well - I'm guessing that you think the NMFS interpretation of reporting that you caught ten times the TAC would be that there are ten times more snapper out there and thus the total population estimate should be revised by a factor of 10. 

I don't believe that would be the NMFSinterpretation and I also don't think the season would be allowed to continue when data is being received in real time daily. 

I think the NMFS interpretation (rightly or not) would be that you are raping what little snapper are left and thus they would close the season.

I don't think just because you caught more than the TAC by an outrageous amount implies that the TAC would be raised. My understanding is the typical response to "overfishing" based on the TAC is shortened seasons and lowered bag limits.

Just my opinion.


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## cobe killer (Apr 13, 2008)

catching an allocated number of fish in a specific amount of time isn't in any way, shape or form going to help determine how many fish are in the water. there is no way to control every aspect of conditions and feeding habits of fish. you catch more if you go more during that allotted time frame and if you send more fishermen out each time you go. that doesn't mean that there are more fish. every season is different in several different ways, weather, econcmy or like this year, both( thats why nmfs catch numbers are totally unbeleivable).

we need to take all this frustration toward each other and force the nmfs to find out what is really out there in the gulf. there is no need for all of this between the rec. and charter fishermen. without the rec. fishermen there is no charter business and without the charterboats MOST rec. fishermen wouldn't know what a redsnapper was. if we are not going to work together then we might as well seperate, because the nmfs has already accomplished what they have set out to do.

many battles against govt. agencies have been won when the people of this nation joined together to accomplish a common goal, but never has one been won when the people were divided. thanks


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

hey guys



sounds like good progress today!


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

I don't know whether my post has done good or bad but it sure has people thinking. Now if we could all get on the same page and quit picking at each other and attack the real problem as in The NMFS and their bad data we might get somewhere!:usaflag


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## frydaddy (Oct 1, 2007)

Cap Coley and Mike,

What kind of drugs are you guys on? And you other guys responding positively to what they are saying, are your REALLY reading what they are saying? They admit to being the guys that helped write this proposal that is nothing but an attack on the recreational fisherman and in the same breath ask us once again to help them fight the fight? Read the post, according to them it's almost reality. Then they ask us to fighting and to come together? Some of you are really biting on this. No wonder they think they can do what they want!

I will acknowledge at this point that I have been informed by some of the for hire boats that they and a number of them are against this proposal. Really glad to hear this. Don't have time to write to everyone, busy researching.

WAKE UP GUYS!


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

As for me i am on a random drug test had a test less 3 months ago I am clear in my head are you. sos is in play like it or not just trying to help the rec.understand nmfs way of working and the reasons sos is being pushed forward. As for Capt.Mike he wouldn't do drugs with your nose!


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *capt mike (12/1/2008)*
> 
> I don't know whether my post has done good or bad but it sure has people thinking. Now if we could all get on the same page and quit picking at each other and attack the real problem as in The NMFS and their bad data we might get somewhere!:usaflag


Wow, this is a perfect example of "keep an eye on my left hand so you can't see that my right had is f*&^%^& you"

In the same breathe you call the NMFS data"false" and then youuse this "false" data as a toolto steal TAC from rec fishermen. Interesting.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

hey matt 



Capt. Coley here dang man Capt.Mike started this discussion to alert the rec. He is a friend of mine yes and the rec. Your headed for the m word again.



go with god brother you will be a much Less angry man!



Capt. eugene coley


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## Voodoo Lounge (Sep 28, 2007)

Hey Capt. Coley, It's still early in this fight so I'm going use some respect. I noticed you just showed up,are you for or against the SOS plan. 

BTW god won't help me!!


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

You will never convince me and a lot of others that the sos plan is a good thing for rec fishermen. If disagreeing with you makes me a moron than I guess I am. And I guess you can make me out to be some raging lunitic if you think that helps your cause, whatever works out best for you, after all that's what the sos plan is all about.


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

Frydaddy

Sir I am not on any kind of controlled substance. Let me ask you this- If I was an author of the SOS plan do you really think that I would submit a post like the one titled Recreational Fishermen Wake Up! I don't think so. I did this to alert recreational fishermen to realize that all these things will be on the agenda of our enemy the NMFS. I didn't do it to have people fight like little children and run their mouths and threaten people especially when they are ignorant to how ALL of us got in the shape we are in! I did it to open reasonable dialog to EDUCATE the recreational side to try to come up with something positive and useful to help ALL anglers retain some fishing rights. Someone in this mess has to get certified or recognized to bring DATA to the NMFS in a way they will include it in their fish stocks in the future or NONE of us will be fishing for snapper!!! All this talk about the recreational angler giving them Data is a pipe dream, they don't put ANY worth in private citizens supplying Data now or probably ever.



You sound like the same old recreational people I spoke of in my post that I have listened to for 13 years that want to complain and raise cane but won't get involved and get the information and study it as boring as it is to know the difference between TAC,stock assessment, Murph's Data and many other relevant things that make up the rules by which the NMFS governs us. Have you ever taken the time to even meet Roy Crabtree at a fisheries meeting. I kinda guess not! He is doing his job like you probably do yours and if we can get anyone into that bubble of Data collection besides the so called government scientists they are using we better do it! 

I am a recreational angler just like you sir I have no Federal Reef permits to harvest reef fish in the Gulf Of Mexico nor a business with a charter boat with my name hooked to it I buy a fishing license in Florida and Alabama every year. I am a Coast Guard certified Captain because I want to be, I also build reefs out in the gulf because I want to. I love to fish just like you do and I add much to this fishery every year as far as habitat.

My recommendation to the recreational fishermen and women who love this sport is to let ANYONE who can get in that DATA collection bubble for that 24 months or whatever it winds up being and then and pay attention to this- LET THE NMFS KNOW THAT IF THERE ARE ONLY SOME 900 OR SO CHARTER BOATS IN THE GULF THAT WE THE RECREATIONAL ANGLER ARE IN THE MILLIONS SO THEY {Charters} ONLY DESERVE A VERY SMALL SLICE OF THE PIE! The recreational angler should get the majority of the remaining 49%, it should not be cut in half because we are the biggest user group there is!!!! The charter people are just trying to survive and if the NMFS told them that they each get 5000 Lbs. each per year per boat and I'm just pulling that figure out of thin air at least they would know that they could market their trips to customers and get to fish and maybe survive!!!

I can assure you that if we as anglers can get real DATA introduced the NMFS will loosen up and acknowledge this because the government if they help a 

fisheries "so called recovery" all the NMFS guys will want that feather in their cap!

I can only hope that some of this makes sense to you and others reading these posts.

Capt. Mike Lilly:usaflag


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

Hey Capt. Tony 



As to this forum yes I am new. Been around 41 Years jan. though capt. mike is a rec.fisherman and friend of he started this discussion I joined the forum to make the commit about S.O.S having v.m.s./e-logs for the for-hire and wow what a ride.

I'm for it !


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

Matt you have the right to your opinion I am not trying to change your mind on the sos. You get the m word because you are jumping to conclusions & dog cusing me if you read all of my post you would see I am only trying to let you know it is not business as usual NMfs are on the move with these types of plans like it or not they are slow 5 years while more restrictions go in to play.So the sos people are trying speed it up.if I have an alterer motive at all it is total fish caught in the eez.by all recs. too you need snapper tags/stamps by the best means possiable.





I am really just trying to help all concerned understand these numbers that nmfs are using and how they use them! get a calculator add this up your self 2.7 million people x 2 fish x 4 pounds avg. 4 is the new avg. size fish says *nmfs.*

*this is simple math yes but it's real type of formula that is used by nmfs.with same drastic answer gulf council figures in that stuff they call data. *







As y'all have said you have the largest body of *anglers 2.7 million* in *Florida alone* if each of you go catch* 2 red snapper 5,400,000.fish* multiplied by the* 4 pounds* the nmfs says is the average size you get *21,600,000.* 21.6 million pounds. I believe that the tac is only 6.something million pounds. 

That is over fishing and why for hire wants separation. And you need a stamp type monitor in your sector to prove you don't catch any more or any less "not a average" 



Remember this tac is measured by pounds not numbers of fish this the real battle!!!!!!!!!!

Capt.Eugene Coley


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## Candy (Jan 6, 2008)

Capt. Coley... I have never met him. His posts confused me with conflicting messagesfor a little while and I even began to wonder if he was the same Eugene Coleywhose name was attached as a sponsor of the SOS plan. Well, since I don't know him, I can only judge him by his words on this forum and the fact that <U>he has</U> chosen to align himself with a group that is attempting to push the private recreational fisherman off the water.I do respect Capt. Coleyfor *one* *thing* and that is having the courage to have a dialog with all of us.

As far as Capt. Mike, He is very knowledgable about fishery issues and if you read his posts, <U>he is trying to wake up the Recreational fishermen</U> so thatthey willbecome part of the solution. Mike, is one of the good guys.

Not all of the Charter Operators support the SOS plan so it is not fair to hold it against the entire industry.

The SOS plan is being presented this Thursday! For those of you that still haven't written a letter, If you think everyone else willsend a letter so you don't need to....well, you'd better get a keg because you will be needing that beer to cry into.:reallycrying We all need to be involved!

If you want to review the SOS plan, I posted it on the PFF thread titled "Plan to take 1/2 our TAC!"


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## Matt Mcleod (Oct 3, 2007)

> *capt.eugene coley (12/2/2008)*Matt you have the right to your opinion I am not trying to change your mind on the sos. You get the m word because you are jumping to conclusions & dog cusing me if you read all of my post you would see I am only trying to let you know it is not business as usual NMfs are on the move with these types of plans like it or not they are slow 5 years while more restrictions go in to play.So the sos people are trying speed it up.if I have an alterer motive at all it is total fish caught in the eez.by all recs. too you need snapper tags/stamps by the best means possiable.
> 
> 
> I am really just trying to help all concerned understand these numbers that nmfs are using and how they use them! get a calculator add this up your self 2.7 million people x 2 fish x 4 pounds avg. 4 is the new avg. size fish says *nmfs.*
> ...


THAT IS MY POINT!!!! The for hire sector knows damn good and well those numbers are a load of crap yetyou find a false number that helps you and you jump ship, throw rec anglers under the bus and say thats how the nmfs works and you should learn how to play the game like us. 

The problem is the false data and the nmfs! Why would we be willing to negotiate with them in a system that will never work!! They don't know how many red snapper are in the gulf and they don't know how many are caught every year, it's as simple as that. So why the hell would we negotiate TAC numbers with changes to bag limits and seasons when the information we used as a basis for this issue was false. When the nmfs cuts a month off the season they are estimating that will cut a X amount of pounds off the TAC. When they cut the bag limit they estimate another amount that will be cut from the TAC. Well guess what, since the stock numbers and catch numbers were wrong to begin with, then the catch numbers and stock numbers are still wrong after the regulation changes. 

WE CANNOT LET THIS TURN INTO A NEGOTIATION FOR TAC ALLOWANCES! 

I keep hearing that we need more data and thatthe sos planwill help with that. The nmfs doesn't think they need more data, for Gods sake they knocked the season down to nothing and the bag limit in half with the data they have now. They eitherknow it's not right but they don't care, or they think it's right and they don't care what you think.


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## capt mike (Oct 3, 2007)

Matt



We can sit back and say that the Data the NMFS is using is bad till the cows come home but if we don't find a way to show them how much the fishery is recovering nothing will change ever they will continue to cut as the amount of anglers increases due to population and we in the end will lose our rights to fish. I didn't have anything to do with the SOS plan at all.I am not for a snapper stamp or a lottery system to exercise our right to fish but we are heading in that direction. What Capt. Coley is talking about when he says 5 years is how slow these governmental agencies work to change their practices- The SOS plan just tries to speed up their recognition that snapper populations have exploded in the northern gulf. I don't think the plan is perfect no- not by a long shot but I do understand why they had to act somehow. If passed for a trial period we at least can break that barrier of being able to show them they are wrong. I have been sitting within 8 feet of Roy Crabtree when he was asked "why do you continue with Data you suspect is inaccurate" and his answer is "its all I've got". We have to change that somehow!!

The scenario of the millions of recreational anglers/ vs. pounds caught is one that will be hard to overcome because using their flawed Data we are the ones that are doing the overfishing. We have to make them realize that every guy or gal that buys a fishing licence is not always fishing for red snapper- did you know thats how they look at it thats wrong and we all know it- if you buy a license whether you bottom fish or not you are counted! Thats why when we beat our lungs about the masses of recreational anglers that could bite us in the rear later on. These are troubling times yes so people ned to get informed and get INVOLVED!!!!

I wish you well sir and please know I'm on your side.

Capt. Mike Lilly


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

hey candy



Sorry I'm so confusing to everyone I fell there has to be change for this reason I depend on red snapper for my business I'm sorry you perceive this has wanting you off the water it is not by design I need more flexible regulation 64 day season does not work for me so yes I support the sos plan for the simple reason it was derived directly from the agenda of nmfs/gulf council meetings. has i have said I'm open for all debate just not dog cuss-ion people.The use of any numbers are not to convince you I'm write .They to show you how it works "nmfs"O I'll leave with this to think on nmfs says Florida's 2.7million rec anglers catch 21.6 million with a 6.3 million total tac the numbers are against us all .



*I don't make these claims the law did I just want all to understand them and use them to the best of there ability. no matter were you stand on the sos plan * 



thank you 

Capt.Eugene Coley


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

<SPAN class=posttext><SPAN class=posttext><SPAN class=posttext>CAPT Mike / CAPT Coley

<SPAN class=posttext>Seems like you guys believe and want us to believe that Dr. Roy Crabtree and NMFS are reasonable decision makers.I think you guys have <SPAN class=posttext>1.either drunk the NMFS Koolaide or 2. Are trying to make the SOS plan look better so you can feel good about it.

<SPAN class=posttext>For instance last snapper season when the States of FL and TX did not shorten the snapper seasonto match the red snapper season in federal waters -What did RoyCrabtree do - he further shortened the federal water red snapper season as a punishment to recreational fisherman and the States so everyone would know who was in charge. I knowyou guys probably believe that the reason Crabtree further shortened the season was to prevent further "overfishing". 

<SPAN class=posttext>I don't buy it. The States of FL and TX responded to the requests of their citizenery (Rec fisherman) and elected to go with the longer snapper season in State waters. The further shortening of the federal red snapper season by Dr. Crabtree was punishment to rec fisherman and the States who had the audacity to go against NMFS and do what was in their power to exercise their right for rec fisherman to enjoyfishing for and harvestingred snapper in their State waters.

<SPAN class=posttext>Another point for your consideration. Dr Crabtree i<SPAN class=posttext>s not in favor of regional management of the gulffishery - therefore no matter the fact that you could get to the point that red snapper were so thick you were walking across the water on themoffthe coast of pensacola NMFS will not allow for increasedbag limitsfor the northern gulf of mexico red snapper fishery off AL and NW FL.In Dr. Crabtree's planningthegulf fishery for red snapper will be managed the same from Brownsville, TX to Key West, FL and all points in between for evermore despite the fact that South Florida's red snapper population historically has never been as great as the Northern gulf red snapper fishery.

<SPAN class=posttext>So CAPT Mike what are you for? Do you really believe that Dr. Crabtree will save us all ifwe eachwrite a few letters and let the SoS plan go through to further document the red snapper catch. 

<SPAN class=posttext>come on CAPT Mike if you sat 8 feet from him you know better......

<SPAN class=posttext>

<SPAN class=posttext>Ifpeople really want to inform themselves about Dr. Crabtree and NMFS management a good link with excerptedtext from the FS conservation web forum on the grouper fishery management is provided below.

<SPAN class=posttext>Mark W

<SPAN class=posttext><SPAN class=posttext>http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=799811

<SPAN class=posttext>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<SPAN class=posttext> Last week was a busy week for us on the Grouper Ban front. On Wen 15 Oct there was a meeting held at the Islamorada Fishing Club between Dr Roy Crabtree and a panel of concerned anglers/businessmen that have been active in fighting the ban.
Capt Bill Kelly was the Moderator for the meeting. Bill also sits on the SAFMC AP council for Snapper/Grouper. 

I don't have my notes with me, but along with Bill were (and forgive me if I miss someone): 
Capt Rob Harris (me) of KW....Chairman, Key West Fishing Tournament, Owner Conchy Joe's Marine and Tackle, BOD TDC Fishing Umbrella, Charter Capt and Rec Fishing Advocate.
Capt Bill Wickers of KW...Longtime Charter Capt and Commercial fisherman as well a former Council member (AP various segments).
Capt Rich Houde of KW...Chairman Key West Charter Boat Association, Charterboat Capt, Board of Directors for Key West Fishing Tournament.
Capt Jim Sharpe of Summerland...Chairman TDC Fishing Umbrella, Charter Boat Capt.
Capt Mike Wienhoffer of KW...BOD TDC Fishing Umbrella, Charter Boat Capt
Capt Brad Simmons of KW...BOD FKNMS AP, Charter Boat Capt
Capt Bouncer Smith of Miami....Charter Boat Capt
Capt Scott Zimmerman of Marathon....Executive Director Florida Keys Commercial Fisherman?s Association 
Capt Hank Brown of Islamorada...Industry Rep
Capt Joe Petruccio of Islamorada...Charter Boat Capt
Capt George (?) of Marathon....Charter Boat Capt
Capt Jeff Shelar of Marathon....Charter Boat Capt 

And of course; Dr Roy Crabtree of NOAA/NMFS/Gulf and SAFMC 

We all had areas within our specialties that we spoke on. 

I made arguments regarding the lack of scientific evidence that Reds and Blacks should be included. I included excerpts of reports that the scientists themselves had called for better data because the data they are forced to use is incomplete and can even be construed as "wrong". Roy refused to say that the data was wrong, but conceded that it could be "in error". He actually used lots of different ways to make excuses for the data being used, but wouldn't use the word "wrong". 

It was brought up that there needs to be Regional Management of the Fishery. Roy stated that he was/is against treating areas as "special" since it reeks of "favoritism". Bill Wickers argued all the data used for the commercial/recreational limits always has South Florida and Florida in general as always being hit with more stringent regulations while the areas North of Florida (Ga/SC/NC) have smaller size limits (when they have size limits) and larger bag limits. No comment from Roy on that issue except to say that he would look into it. 

It was brought up that the lack of response from the public was due to the fact when we initially heard about a closure, it was only going to be Gags. Roy disputed that stating that NMFS and Council had ALWAYS been talking about all grouper. Joe and Jeff spoke up about the Key Largo meeting where they were told by Greg Waugh of SAFMC that it was only going to be Gags. I also showed Roy the Aug 2007 letter from Greg Waugh which ONLY Gags were included. Roy said he's sorry we weren't aware, but there was nothing he could do about it since there was ample (in his opinion) time for comment. 

Several members spoke on the Economic Impact to the community. Roy said the EIS has already been done and looked at by the Council. Even though everything has change in the economic climate, they can't allow that to be a factor in the management process. The amount of businesses that will be affected nor the lack of fishing pressure over the last year will impact NMFSs decision. 

When asked how we could get this put back on the table with the council, Roy stated that we would have to get a Council member to ask to look at it again, and if needed, another vote would be taken. When asked directly by Rich if he, Crabtree, would bring it back to the table, Roy said No. He has no intention of changing his vote and is content with it as it stands. 

I brought up the timeline for action as mandated by Magnuson/Stevens Act. As put forth by the SAFMC, action must be taken/in place by the end of the fishing year 2010. There is a SEDAR scheduled for mid-09 to be completed by early 2010. I wanted to know if the closure could be set for just Gags in 09 and delay the rest till after the SEDAR. Roy said that it must be in place by NMFS standard of beginning of 2010. 

Roy stated the closure to all Grouper is set to protect the spawning fish. But the council picked only the spawn for the southern fish. He acknowledged that the Northern range fish do spawn later in the year, but those were the dates the SAFMC came up with. Of course it is Roy, there are more votes from the Northern range on the Council. The ban just happens to end when their season opens. 

In Summary of that meeting:
Roy won't change his stance. He doesn't want regional management. He said that we can always talk to the Secretary of Commerce to try and get it over-ridden. 

If it wasn't for meeting all the other folks there, I'd ask for that 120 minutes of my life back. 

Rob


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## atlantacapt (Oct 2, 2007)

This line makes no sense:


"As y'all have said you have the largest body of *anglers 2.7 million* in *Florida alone* if each of you go catch* 2 red snapper 5,400,000.fish* multiplied by the* 4 pounds* the nmfs says is the average size you get *21,600,000.* 21.6 million pounds. I believe that the tac is only 6.something million pounds." 

First, and most importantly...How can anyone say what the total catch, or average size of fish are for that matter, when there is absolutely no monitoring. I ran probably 20 bottom trips last year. Each day, with the exception of one, we had a limit of snappers and some groupers. We got boarded by the FWC ONCE. They did not check weights, etc. Thus, there was no reporting. The other 19 or so trips there was absolutely no reporting going on, as no one had a clue as to what was caught. Thus the data used by NFMS and thus by the SOS plan are <U>inccurate</U> at best, and potentially fraudulent atworst (twisted by various lobbyist groups to help their interests).

Secondly,not every port in FL catches Red Snapper as a staple fish. It is mainly found in the upper Gulf and a few in the middle grounds, some in the Atlantic, etc. The weighting I would guess would be that 75% of the catch comes from Pensacola, Destin, Panama City, Apalachicola, etc., whichcomprises probably 20% of FL recreational anglers.This eliminates the math above making sense.

I am not going to get into a yelling match on this issue and so this is my only post. However, the FACT that the data IS flawed is the key behind why the SOS plan does not work. Nobody truly knows the real catch data and how it is divided between commercial/recreational and then by recreational/for-hire.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

atlantacapt.



the rest of the sos plan after sector sep. does address those very thing you mentioned we need better data (V.M.S.& E-LOGS.)WITH SNAPPER STAMPS.addressing the rec.sector.

Capt. Eugene Coley.


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## atlantacapt (Oct 2, 2007)

Perfect. Your statementabove makes complete sense and proves part one of your plan null and void. Until the data can be collected to a 95% certainty level and then audited and also have a5-10 year time horizon to validate, then part 2 (the allocation part of SOS) can't happen.

You have now answered your own questions to this matter and now we should be on the same side of the debate. Enough said...

Thank you!!


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

atlantacapt



you missed this part of the plan it will be real time data and only subject to one or two years for review before action.

The e-logs will cover bycatch as well on the for-hire boats.Thus providing a real look at the way bycatch kills fish and nobody likes throwing fish back because of an inch or two.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

> *capt.eugene coley (12/2/2008)*atlantacapt
> 
> you missed this part of the plan it will be real time data and only subject to one or two years for review before action.
> The e-logs will cover bycatch as well on the for-hire boats.Thus providing a real look at the way bycatch kills fish and nobody likes throwing fish back because of an inch or two.


If they are collecting the same data now from commecial fishermen using the same system why would a marginal amount of more bycatch data change anything. Certainly many years of data with 100% reporting on a sector that is supposedly accounting for 51% of the TAC would be enough.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

sorry but it is not according nmfs/gulf council 



They say the rec.you and I are still overfishing and the numbers are against use all.



commercial has the monitors in play and nmfs/gulf council are happy with them.



Sorry just a messenger 



Capt. Eugene Coley


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## bonita dan (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi,dumbass here. Seems to me that the folks supporting the SOSA(thats Save Our Sorry Asses)plan are "For Hire" Captains who also double as Commercial Fisherman which to me seems as though they get the best of both worlds. 51% TAC for there Commercial permits and 49% TAC for there Reef Permits. Say it isn't so! Not tryin to blast anyone but all this mombo jombo with figures and don't run we are your friends seems like some kind of a nightmareish tax audit with the Rec. guys as well as a bunch of "For Hire" Capt's takin a beating in the long run. I don't like politics,bunch of backstabbing BS is what its all about and this smells like it to me. :hoppingmad


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

Sir 





Did you like only 64 days to catch red snapper I did not!


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## bonita dan (Oct 3, 2007)

Personally I could give a rats ass if snapper season was limited too 20min. a year. I'm not a snapper fisherman but do realize that if the species goes uncontrolled for much longer that there will be nothing left in the gulf except Red Snapper. The economy here in the Panhandle is dependant on the fishery and instead of trying to help the whole picture,some are only looking at it for personal gain. I have no dog in this fight but the fishery does need to be looked at,at a local level not by Politicians in Washington,the folks over on theEast coast or by people trying to save their own asses.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

I appreciate your stance. I wish it could be solved locally too but the feds. are the law that governs this.



Has covering my back side I don't have commercial permit.



If I or anybody else was inadvertently messing up your way of making a living you would do what ever it takes.



by the way nobody can keep anybody off the water.


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## Capt.Eugene (Nov 28, 2008)

In 1 1/2 days this post will be a month old as with my membership here didn't want Y'all to for get my start here.


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## backdown2 (Dec 23, 2008)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=smalltxt vAlign=top><SPAN id=_ctl1_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl9_lblFullMessage><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Ms Hansard ,I have really tried to be courteous and forth rite in explaining all the tenets and motivations on why the Charter for hire industry has presented the NMFS our SOS plan. We took great pains and thoughtfulness to address every possible need for all fishers of red snapper into account. We have a need to protect the 60+ years of being the only true public access to sport fishing in the Gulf of Mexico for recreational fishermen but at the same time made sure that our plan would be fair , truthful, open and a positive benefit to this extremely valuable resource and to the other 2 user groups involved with this fishery. But you for some reason that escapes me have decided to continue on the same path of baseless rhetoric that has gotten us in this mess in the first place. Now in this letter below you make some claims that you espouse as fact when in reality they have been conjured up in your own mind.I believe it is official nowthat you live in a world of make believe, For reasons I know not, you just do not get it. I have taken great pains to explain to you and the others out there that bought into your propaganda the facts about the reality of the present red snapper dilemma that not only us but you faceas well. And against my knowing that this letter may go right over your head as well, I will once again try to give you ALL that facts concerning our plan and how it will effect the private rec sector. I will answer your rhetoric in the letter below.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Hi Eugene,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">It is admirable that you are willing to, at great expense; sacrifice your right, as an American, to privacy, in order to provide "data" to the NMFS. Ms Hansard privacy is a right but fishing or any other access to the natural resources of this country is a PRIVALGE and you and your followers need to grasp this fact before you go to any NMFS meeting.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">If you sincerely believe that this is going to make a difference, why don't you go ahead and begin that portion of the SOS plan today, on a volunteer basis. We have a pilot electronic log book program with VMS going to begin this 1 June opening. We have enough funding for 20-30 boats to use this new technology to work out the process and assilmationof data collection, transfer and storage for information sentat sea to land based facilities for this 2009 season It is unnecessary to divide the Recreational Sector in order to accomplish that "noble" goal. It would be fascinating to see how many of the Charters would actually participate in a voluntary monitoring program out of sheer concern for data collection.We have hundreds of volunteers for this for the curiosity on how the technology works has drawn interest but the funding for the pilot program only provides for about 25 vessels. The NMFS is looking at getting additional funds in Feb to fund aparallelproject at the same time which will include more boats.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Somehow, this plan looks more like a bartering attempt between the Charter Operators and the NMFS. You give us year round fishing and get those pesky monkey boats off the water and we'll give you data. Yes, it is that transparent. Anyone with one eye open can see what is going on here.Pure propaganda Candy and it is getting old. Back up your statement with some kind of facts. The SOS plan is a forward thinking, positive, conservation based plan to enhance the red snapper fishery for years to come. It will benefit the Charter industry and it WILL benefit all recreational fishermen including you. What it will not do any time soon is give usyear round fishing or anything close to it. And we have not made such a claim. It will however speed up the chances of making a true change in this fishery.With this plan you will catch more snapper when the total TAC is increased through better science and accountability. Your stance and that of others of taking the status quo position of bitching and fighting the NMFS has gotten us nowhere the last 10 years and it will not get you anywhere in the next 10 years . your failure to understand the tenets of the Magnison Stevens Act reauthorization of 2006 will prevent you from having any success when dealing with the NMFS. So you need to do your homework before you fire off these unsubstantiated claimsof knowledge of our intent or the intent of the NMFS.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">It is indisputable that the Commercial and Charter Industries put the most pressure on our fishery. Even your own statistics prove that point.What is indisputable is the fact that the commercial industry is the most regulated and most accountable sector in the Gulf of Mexico. Every single boat that fishesmakes notice to the NMFS when they leave togo fishing ,what they are fishing for , what they are using to catch the fish, give enforcement a 3 hour lead time before they hit the dock so the marine enforcement can monitor the off loading of their catch andevery fish and species caught is weight and identified with all catch records going to the NMFS . What is indisputable is the fact that long before the development of fiberglass boats and reliable outboard motors,30 years before the loran c and then the GPS The Charter for Hire sector has been fishing and landing fish for recreational anglersin the designated recreational sector. Virtually THE only access any recreational fishermen had to catch reef fish of any kindwere aboard the Party boats and few charter boats in our areas.What is undisputable that these 2 sectors are the only ones to make a red snapper plan for themselves that will protect the survival of red snapper stocks for generations to come and at the same time will ensure themselves a future in this fishery as well. NO SNAPPER ,NO SNAPPER FISHING BUSINESS.One plan ( the commercial IFQ)is in effect and it is working very well.Last year over 100,000 lbs of the red snapper IFQ was left in the gulf alive. As of tonight DEC 23 there still is 89,600 lbs of snapper that have not been harvested that could be. Under the plan dead discards went from 1 dead discard snapperto 1 kept snapper to 1 dead discard to6 kept snapper.The other plan the SOS plan will through real time data collection will prevent us from over harvesting our TAC if our plan goes through. That way we do not get penalized by you over harvesting red snapper and the ACL's take away the over harvest the following year.( which has happened every year since the mid 1990's)In 2006 the over harvest of snapper by the rec sector including charter boats was 660,620 lbs according to the MRFSS data .Under the new ACL rule if that happens thisyear the 2010 season would be reduced that amount resulting in 1/2 the season we have now. Does that appeal to you followers? It does not to me .Considering this, there was a critical element completely missing from your SOS plan.How many of the Commercial or Charter Captains would be removed from the fishery if the NMFS implemented an automatic life time ban on all commercial and Charter operators that get caught cheating?I'll go for that as long as you put that on your shoe and wear it. Now, that would give our fishery a real chance to survive. The little slaps on the hand you've been getting have done nothing to deter many in your combined industries from breaking fishery management rules in order to increase your personal incomes. Profit is a great motivator to cheat, therefore; all for-profit fishermen should be held to the highest standards.Ms Hansard I caution you not to throw stones in a glass house. According to FWC violations written in 2008 for fishing violations by salt water private boat anglers and commercialentities the score is 90filed violations for private boat saltwater anglers, 1/3 of those were divers and spear fishersvs26 violation by commercial or charter boats.That is only for the panhandle toTampa. The commercial and charter owners have far too much to lose if caught violating the rules now days .Those that do should pay for their violation and they do.The Commercial and Charter boats dock and unload at the same place day after day and we receive a lot of the enforcement effort because we are easy to enforce. Unlike the hundreds of boat ramps and private boat docks for the private angler. And now Federal violations result in sever fines and the losing of permits for months costing thousandsof dollers.The only wrist slapping is taking place on the private rec boatman who does not lose much other than the embarrassment of having his name in the paper.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">No matter how you sugar coat the SOS plan, the way you have written it, the Private Recreational Fisherman would be forced off the water.Another false claim that you can not back up with facts.Once again I will support this plan with facts and not with suppositions such as yours.The only data that the NMFS has used to manage red snapper has been MRFSS.In all the latest decisions that they have made in settinga seasons, making decisions on size of fish to harvest and baglimits to prevent over fishing and in managing us theCharterforHire fisherman by not allowing us to keep Capt and crew limits on our boats has been this data. We agree it is not what we believe in to be accurate but because we have no accountability of what we truly catchIT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO MAKE MANAGMENT DECISIONS.This data shows that the Charter for Hire sector has caught approximate 61% of the recreational TAC the last 11 years ( you can go back further and it still stayed within a few % points).They use this time period because this is when they separated us as a different sector by MAKING US A LIMITED ENTRY SECTOR.By putting a moratorium on new permits being issued.So now in the last 11 years they have managed us different than you (limited entry for us ,none for private rec. no capt or crew limit ,none for private rec . And starting this year we must follow the restrictive federal guide lines even if the states don't follow the federal season, the private rec can do as he pleases. So now even though we have been fishing in the recreational sector for over 60+ years we have been separated from the other recreational fishermen by being limited more than the private guy.This is why if we are to be managed as a separate sector than we want to operate as one, with our own plan to benefit our industry and the red snapper resource that we depend on with out being penalized with the upcoming Acl's by the lack of accountability andunfettered access by the privaterecreational boatmen.Also do not forget that even though they treat us different because we are a profit for hire industry we are the platform for over 2 million members of the us public to have access tosport fishing in the gulf.This is why we are not taking anything from recreational fishermen ,in fact we are trying to preserve this access of these millions of anglers for generations to come.This fact is why we operate in the recreational sector not the commercial .This is why weare asking for onlyour historical portion of the recreational TAC and not from the commercial. Fact, this portion of the TACis where we have and are fishing for over the last60+ years. Fact, this amount of fish we have,by NMFS data have been harvesting has been constant through the years percentage wise no matter what the length of season or bag limits have been.How could this be? Ms.Hansard made the case for me when she stated "It is indisputable that the Commercial and Charter Industries put the most pressure on our fishery. Even your own statistics prove that point"You are correct but that is because we fish more than you do. We have always fished more than the private recreational fisherman and that is why we have such a important reason to protect this fishery, more so than you .That is why the commercial industry came up with their IFQ plan. The derby fishery was dangerous for fishermen and it waskilling millions of pounds of snapper to keep a few million and they came up with a plan to stop that to protect the resource that they relied on to make a living.That is why we are in the process to do the same . Without a increase in TAC for all sectors our ability to make a living is greatly reduced.WE are extremely oriented to protect the red snapper stock to get it to a not over fish designation. We feel we are close to that but need to provide better data and science for the managers to do a better job that will benefit YOU! How?Back to your claim that the private recreational fisherman is getting forced out by our plan. I will for the 10th time go over the reality of the percentages.This is fact based on the last 10 years. from 1996- 2006 the percentages of harvest from charter for hire and private recreational has stayed constant within a few % points. During this time we went from a 7 fish per person and 180 day season all the way down to the 64 days at 2 per person. This is because we fish more than the private recreational angler on a daily basis. Always have, always will.The access to the fish has not changed with the change in season or bag limit.Our plan will not change thiscatcheffort one bit. The last ten years will protect your access to red snapper at the same level that you have always had. In fact as the TAC is increased you will have more fish to catch and even if our business improve with more trips and larger charters you will not lose any of your historical catch history just because of our success in business.so this plan works both ways. And I will tell you not on fact but just my observation that we in the Charter forHire sector probablyhave caught far more of the Recreational tac than what we have been credited with. I say this knowing that total accountability in our sector may cost me some fish. But I know with higher TAC's and Stock assessments in the future that it will all work out.That will never be acceptable to me or any private recreational fishermen.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I appreciate that you depend on the water to make your living but a lot of people that support recreational fishermen depend on our sport to make their living. This plan would have a devastating effect on fishing & tackle retailers, recreational boating industry, marinas, dry storage, towing insurance, etc... What about the effect this plan would have on the survivability of their businesses? We do business with most all the same people you do , and we are taking recreational fishermen as well who spend thousands of dollars patronizing the whole area.We operate in the recreational business.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">The fact that the allocations need to be adjusted is obvious. As you know, a very small group of fishermen currently enjoy 51% of the entire Red Snapper allocation.They have historical and economic reasons and justificationjust as important as yours to harvest red snapper . They provide red snap to eat by the U.S. public who can not afford to come here and buy a boat or charter one. They also have a totally controlled ,accountable segment of this fishery .The NMFS is not going to take a fish that is accountable and put in a totally unaccountable ,un fettered access fisherythis is why recreational efforts to re allocate fish has failed. and will continue to fail.If you want access to that fishery at a later date support our plan and come up with a plan for private rec and maybe as we also are accountable the sharing of fish can be discussed. That needs to change. That inequity is denying every Charter Operator and Recreational Fisherman their fair and equitable treatment in the allocation process.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">There are no sacred cows in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">America</st1lace></st1:country-region>. We need to join forces and demand that the NMFS treat ALL fishermen fairly. The resource does NOT belong to a few, it belongs to ALL of us and we should share it equally.Once again you need to do homework concerning issues such as what does the National Research center have to say, Read the Magnison Stevens reauthorization act. NMFS marine fisheries plan. And begin to see the right to fish is really the privilege to fish and if you want that privilege you must pay the price buy doing things that will benefit the resource within the mandates of federal law.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">You speak of your heritage and the water as if only the "old timers" deservean exclusive right to enjoy and profit off the richness of the marine environment. Does that mean that my grand kids shouldn't have a right to become a Charter Operator or Commercial Fisherman We live in a capitalists society and anyone who wishes to purchase a Charter permit and boat or Commercial boat can do so .You must however put upthe money.Yoou must as in any business environment consider the cost and viability of you endeavor and then make a business decisionon whether to assume the risk. Our plan will help ensure that there will be charter boat businesses to buy for the next generation of fishermen.or even the right to just fish recreationally because you want to claim the resource exclusivelyfor you and yours? You will have your exclusive protection of your historical fishing efforts protected as well. I know many Americans have the entitlement mentality but I personally don't feel like the rest of us owe you or any other "old timer" anything.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">There are many industries that are suffering from economic hardships these days. The fact that the Charter Industry is suffering right along with the rest of the economy is no reason to propose a plan that will force the multitudes to forfeit their access to the Gulf so that a few of you can prosper.<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">The tall and short of this entire conversation is this: Either you are Recreational or you are Commercial.We are the recreational sector that you haveenjoyed being a part of. We where here first in this sector, for over 60+ years.. We are still here in this sector harvesting more fish than you have . We also wish to see that you continue to harvest red snapper at the same level and landings that you always have the last 10 years and beyond. We also hope by helping the red snapper stocks through our plan that you and we the Charter for Hire industry that gives access to all recreational anglers will enjoy this resource for generations to come.We also encourage the private recreational boatmen TO COME UP A PLAN FOR THERE SECTOR SIMULAR TO OURS SO YOU WON'T BE PENALIZED UNDER THENEW ACL'S AND POSSIBLY HAVE NO SEASON AT ALL IN A FEW YEARS . ( THE SOTH ATLANTIC MAY CLOSE ITS REDS SNAPPER ANSND GROUPER SEASON THIS YEAR). We as of now are actually coming up with some ideas for a private rec plan so we can get total accountability for all and speed up the process of getting snapper out from under the over fished designation.We understand that some parts of our plan can notwork for the private boat operator. If you want to be considered Commercial, start begging for scraps from the "old timers" that were "Commercial" first.Let's see how you wouldlike thatschemeif _YOU_ are the onegetting scraps of theallocation pie. <o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">Candy Hansard<o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">For those of you who would like more background on this issue, go to the forum thread titled "Plan to take 1/2 our TAC!" There, you can read the entire SOS Plan that is being proposed by Eugene and several very wealthy Charter Operators.What a bunch of crap! you and your Govt. employed husband make a hell of a lot more than I most charter guys. Theydrive around in 10 yr old pick ups and work 2 & 3 jobs .A few guys who have been doing this for 30+ years have a little to show for their efforts but it pales in the average income of the private recreational fisherman.And the work load these men go through with so little to show for it is tantamount . This is more a life style than a career.So much so that I steered all 3 of my sons to different careers. My 28 year old son made more money managing the long horn steak house than I did thisyear.All we are trying to do is protect the heritage of our industry and do it in a manner that will not effect you as a fisherman what so ever. What a baseless cheap shot you just made.If you never fished or dove another day in your life your world continues undisturbed. For us it would be devastating ,the issues of bankruptcies ,job retraining ( a little late for 50-60 yr old guys that have done nothing but fish)and the effects on families and our comunities. Candy you haveno idea of the world that you do not live in. By the way I can be reached at [email protected] We operate in public and in truth. Capt Gary Jarvis<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><o></o><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">Recreational Fishermen and Women and Spear Fishers,Wake up and defend your rights before they are gone.<P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><P class=MsoPlainText style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes"><SPAN style="mso-no-proof: yes">If you would like to join aRecreational Fishermen's Movement for Fairness in Fishing, contact me at [email protected] <o></o> 

<SPAN id=_ctl1_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl9_lblPostSignature>Candy Hansard
Emerald Coast Reef Association
Reef Deployment Director
Director of Marketing
Forum Administrator
[email protected]
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<DIV class=aol_ad_footer id=19ecfee4f21a6a3b3d3f28b744fd12d0><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, </DIV>


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Gary,

I hate to even write a response to your post, because since even you can't believe that any private boat owning red snapper fisherman will buy into your spin on the SOS plan, you must be trolling for ideas for your next set of Environmental Defense Fund co-drafted talking points to counter arguments against your SoS plan. 

However, because I care about my right and the rights of other private boat owning red snapper fisherman I feel I must reply just in case the uninformed fail to realize what the SOS plan would actually do to them in the long run....

Gary you like to put the 'spin: on the SOS plan and sell it as a forward thinking red snapper conservation plan, Simply put the SOS plan is a business model specifically designed to ensure that you keep your business going and growing and that is what I personally have a problem with . The SOS plan will benefit you and other charter for hire red snapper boats at the expense of private boat owning Gulf recreational red snapper anglers like me. See comments below on your statements



> *backdown2 (12/24/2008)*
> 
> 'We have a need to protect the 60+ years of being the only true public access to sport fishing in the Gulf of Mexico'
> 
> ...


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

Let me explain a few things about the so called effort by the charterboat owners supporting the "sos" plan. First, the sos plan was developed by a hand full of charterboat owners, the key players have both commercial and for-hire permits and red snapper commercial IFQ shares. Second, there are just a few of the 1300 federally permitted for-hire charterboat owners who support this plan. They are mostly located in the panhandle area with a few from AL and LA. They DO NOT speak for the majority of the charter boat owners as most of us do not feel there is a need to separate the recreational sector into two parts, for-hire and pri/rec. 

Third and most important. There have been several of us working for some time on a proposal that will provide a very easy and inexpensive way to account for all recreational anglers who wish to catch a red snapper, the number who actually do catch a red snapper, the number of red snapper actually landed, and the number of red snapper discarded. The proposal will do this for red snapper immediately and then expand over time to cover the other reef fish we catch. This proposal will be made available to the public soon so you can see it and hopefull support it.

Red snapper is caught from Naples, FL thru Brownsville, Tx and everyone should be able to harvest their bag limit. Recreational anglers are the customers who pay the charterboat ownerso they have a platform from which to fish for red snapper and other species. If it wasn't for the recreational angler who pays us, we would nothave any part of any quota. There is no reason to separate, there is no valid reason to impose a VMS on the charter sector as a VMS will onlyserve to track you every where you go and we do not support paying for the VMS or the monthly fee, they do not tell you when we fish or what we catch. An electronic logbook, which many of us have suggested and pushed many years before the sos group began to get involved, will provide all the information that the NMFS will ever need for their data purposes. 

Do not be fooled with all the talk about the charter sector supporting the sos plan and all the bells and whistles it brings.In Destin, where the primary sosers are located, the Destin Charter Boat Assn has not voted to support the plan as the majority of the charterboat owners there still question the plan. 

Stayed tuned, as the proposal many of us have been working on will provide all the data necessary for the NMFS and will keep the recreational sector together. There is no reasonto separate. We are much stronger as one sector than we are divided.

Bob Zales, II


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanks for adding some additional charter for hire perspective on this Bob.


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## spearfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

3 words...Red Snapper stamp. IMO that would fix everything. Only those who wish to fish ARS would buy one. You could then limit the data collection to those who possess the stamp and not every fishermen that has a salt water fishing liscence. You could require catch data, release data, etc., etc.


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

And what jobs would those be? you mean the job as president of PCBA, president of NACO, executive director of CCGF, owner of 2 charter boats? and what have you heard I am paid for all these jobs? lay it out there, the amount and what your source of info is so I can directly respond to the source and I will tell you. You mention BS, I will put up both boats against any of the BS you will provide. What have you got to back up your BS???


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

waiting, you don't have the source at your finger tips????????? come on with it!!!!!


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

</DIV>Just as I thought and just like the rest of the people like you, you love spreading the bs and trashing people with BS but you can't back it up with facts. That is the difference between people like you and people like me, we don't play with bs we play with facts. Facts can be backed up, bs just stepped on and smashed. So much you your credibility. see ya!!! </DIV>


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## spearfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

I must have missed something...???


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## still flippen (Oct 6, 2007)

O.k. I will admit I do not fully understand this whole argument. But after reading most of the post on this subject it hits me. Seems like the jest of the problem in "poor data" I am assuming is comming from "catches" from rec. and comercial that NMFS complies. IF total population of the ARS is main goal why are weonly using "catches" for data. Seem to me a new team of "real marine scientest" (and suba divers)should be collecting there data in systimatic schedule of DIVES with VISUAL COUNTS on the same wreck and art. reefs. i.e. dive and record the number from a mix of bottom spots natural bottom, art. wreck and reef the edge/ledges on a schedule 3-4 times per year. Spring, summer, late summer, fall and winter. This way we get a real time count of exsisting snapper and also get a better understand of migration patterns due to season, spawning and water temp. Sure we could just count caught snapper,but do we really see the big picture. Not mention are we really understanding and learning as we go. 

There has got to be a better system than just counting/looking at numbers of dead fish in coolers. SEEING is believing.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

I think I missed something too? Bob II - were your replying to a post that got deleted or something?


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Howdy,

There needs to be 2 assessments; 1) for the amount of fishermen going after snapper, as nobody really know how many there are. The national saltwater registry will be done across the Gulf by each state I believe effective Jan 1 2010. 2) an assessment of how many snapper there are in the Gulf - there should be an insistence to count the snapper around the artificial reefs, oil platforms, and on the mud flats offshore of the 50 fathom curve. Once the scientists understand how many fishermen are going after how many snapper, then they can make informed decisions. Personally, I think the snapper biomass is much larger than what they are saying based on past assessments, but am unsure as to the number of recreational fishermen targeting snapper.

One example of the cafetria-style management that NMFS has employed is the punitive decision to shorten the 2008 season from 122 days to 65 days citing Texas' and Florida's refusal to adopt federal regs in their state waters. The data CLEARLY does not support that conclusion, and therefore they should reinstate the 122 day season for 2009, in my opinion.

What I would personally like to see happen in 2009 in this; 

1) Reinstate the June 1 to Sept 30 season based on their "Not So-Final Rule" issued January 29, 2008; http://www.dmr.state.ms.us/Fisheries...egulations.pdf That would be a good start until the data can be compiled relative to the fish/fishermen numbers, and would loosen the grip from the throat of the recreational fishery somewhat.

2) Issue a federal Snapper stamp just like they issue a federal duck stamp - the saltwater registry is too broad in my opinion, and the snapper stamp could complement it, providing even more data that is currently missing. The duck stamp program is a very successful model to emulate, as it brought the duck populations back up by using the monies collected to purchase habitat. We wouldn't necessarily need to buy habitat for the snapper, (although it wouldn't be a bad idea...artificial reefs







), but use the money to gather data to determine EXACTLY how many fishermen target snapper. The feds could then send questionaires at the end of the season AND ask when you re-up for your fishing license, how many snapper did you catch in 2009, just like they do for the ducks. This could be a very effective, low-cost, achievable program that could be enacted very quickly for the private recs. The electronic logbooks could be the answer for the for-hire boats, as the cost of a snapper stamp for each paying customer who only fishes once a year may not make sense. The combination of the snapper stamp and electronic logbooks would supply ALL of the data needed, period.

3) Allow the states to manage their own state waters as they see fit - the power grab by NMFS to overstate their authority violates the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, and as importantly, is not needed nor wanted.

4) Do NOT divide the recreational TAC as wanted by the proponents of the "SOS" (Save Our Selves) plan. This is just another power grab that accomplishes nothing relative to helping the fish - it's about helping themselves as the name indicates. Since charterboat captains and crew cannot keep snapper, they have a ZERO percentage of TAC - 100% of the TAC belongs to the recreational fishermen and thus no reason for dividing the TAC.

All the best,
Tom


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

> *need2fish (12/26/2008)*I think I missed something too? Bob II - were your replying to a post that got deleted or something?


Our good ole buddy capt. eugene deleted his posts saying that bob was full of BS among other things that were said.


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

I just got back on the forum and yes the good ole capt eugene did remove his post to which I responded. His post, for those who did not see stated that my two boats were rundown and that I received paychecks from other jobs and insuated that I had other income other than charter fishing and had alternative reasons for being involved in fishery management. As you can see, he could not respond with facts which should show everyone he is full of the bs he spreads. If he is spreading bs then you should also relate that to anything else he is saying about the sos plan and what it will do. Clearly he is someone who knows little about the facts. Should he show back up on this forum I will challange him or any of his followers to show me info about the bs of my other jobs and paychecks. My time is and has been voluntary for the associations I am President of. Sometimes, expenses are paid for my travel but most of the time is my nickel and always has been.

Tom Hilton has some good points as well as some others I have read here. Once our proposal is public we will post it and hopefully gain support for it. No plan is perfect and any plan will require some sacrifice by anglers. Fishing is not nor will it ever be unlimited and I believe all anglers understand this and are willing to do their part to ensure healthy stocks and resources. They just want accurate and timely data to base the regs on. Once we have such a system, we will all be better off.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

<P align=left>*The following below my comment canbe found on page 159- 160 in the Magnuson-Stevens Act at website **[url]http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/sf/pdfs/MSA_amended_20070112_FINAL.pdf*[/url]<P align=left>*If you guys & gals get a chance should go into the website and do some reading. My opinion to a more cost effective way of reporting accurate data and being fair to everyone is going to be to implement a stamp let it be up to the individual angler as to if they want their share of Snapper. Example: If Mom & Pop bait and tackle around the corner can sell licenses & stamps then allow Charter Boat Captains to sell the stamps individually to anglers onboard under the vessel name without having to collect each anglers life history and to not make it time consuming. Result would be a more accurate account on how many Snappers taken. Once the year is up and the data collected there needs to be actual field study done and not behind a desk either but in the actual Gulf Of Mexico for each sector and be videoed reports as to how many Snapper are brought up from the bottom in a so many mile radius of each drop. *<P align=left>*A question I have is exactly how is it known how many Snappers actually exist in the Gulf to meet a harvest quota? Have not found a exact answer.*<P align=left><P align=left>SEC. 407 GULF OF MEXICO RED SNAPPER RESEARCH 16 U.S.C. 1883<P align=left>(a) INDEPENDENT PEER REVIEW.?<P align=left>109-479<P align=left>(1) Within 30 days of the date of enactment of the Sustainable Fisheries Act, the<P align=left>Secretary shall initiate an independent peer review to evaluate?<P align=left>(A) the accuracy and adequacy of fishery statistics used by the Secretary for the red<P align=left>snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico to account for all commercial, recreational, and<P align=left>charter fishing harvests and fishing effort on the stock;<P align=left>(B) the appropriateness of the scientific methods, information, and models used by the<P align=left>Secretary to assess the status and trends of the Gulf of Mexico red snapper stock and as<P align=left>the basis for the fishery management plan for the Gulf of Mexico red snapper fishery;<P align=left>(C) the appropriateness and adequacy of the management measures in the fishery<P align=left>management plan for red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico for conserving and managing the<P align=left>red snapper fishery under this Act; and<P align=left>(D) the costs and benefits of all reasonable alternatives to a limited access privilege<P align=left>program for the red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico.<P align=left>(2) The Secretary shall ensure that commercial, recreational, and charter fishermen in the<P align=left>red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico are provided an opportunity to?<P align=left>(A) participate in the peer review under this subsection; and<P align=left>(B) provide information to the Secretary concerning the review of fishery statistics<P align=left>under this subsection without being subject to penalty under this Act or other applicable<P align=left>law for any past violation of a requirement to report such information to the Secretary.<P align=left>(3) The Secretary shall submit a detailed written report on the findings of the peer review<P align=left>conducted under this subsection to the Gulf Council no later than one year after the date of<P align=left>enactment of the Sustainable Fisheries Act.<P align=left>16 U.S.C. 1883<P align=left>MSA § 407<P align=left>160<P align=left>(b) PROHIBITION.?In addition to the restrictions under section 303(d)(1)(A), the Gulf<P align=left>Council may not, prior to October 1, 2002, undertake or continue the preparation of any fishery<P align=left>management plan, plan amendment or regulation under this Act for the Gulf of Mexico<P align=left>commercial red snapper fishery that creates an individual fishing quota program or that<P align=left>authorizes the consolidation of licenses, permits, or endorsements that result in different trip<P align=left>limits for vessels in the same class.<P align=left>(c) REFERENDUM.?<P align=left>109-479<P align=left>(1) On or after October 1, 2002, the Gulf Council may prepare and submit a fishery<P align=left>management plan, plan amendment, or regulation for the Gulf of Mexico commercial red<P align=left>snapper fishery that creates a limited access privilege program or that authorizes the<P align=left>consolidation of licenses, permits, or endorsements that result in different trip limits for<P align=left>vessels in the same class, only if the preparation of such plan, amendment, or regulation is<P align=left>approved in a referendum conducted under paragraph (2) and only if the submission to the<P align=left>Secretary of such plan, amendment, or regulation is approved in a subsequent referendum<P align=left>conducted under paragraph (2).<P align=left>(2) The Secretary, at the request of the Gulf Council, shall conduct referendums under<P align=left>this subsection. Only a person who held an annual vessel permit with a red snapper<P align=left>endorsement for such permit on September 1, 1996 (or any person to whom such permit with<P align=left>such endorsement was transferred after such date) and vessel captains who harvested red<P align=left>snapper in a commercial fishery using such endorsement in each red snapper fishing season<P align=left>occurring between January 1, 1993, and such date may vote in a referendum under this<P align=left>subsection. The referendum shall be decided by a majority of the votes cast. The Secretary<P align=left>shall develop a formula to weigh votes based on the proportional harvest under each such<P align=left>permit and endorsement and by each such captain in the fishery between January 1, 1993,<P align=left>and September 1, 1996. Prior to each referendum, the Secretary, in consultation with the<P align=left>Council, shall?<P align=left>(A) identify and notify all such persons holding permits with red snapper<P align=left>endorsements and all such vessel captains; and<P align=left>(B) make available to all such persons and vessel captains information about the<P align=left>schedule, procedures, and eligibility requirements for the referendum and the proposed<P align=left>individual fishing quota program.<P align=left>(d) CATCH LIMITS.?Any fishery management plan, plan amendment, or regulation<P align=left>submitted by the Gulf Council for the red snapper fishery after the date of enactment of the<P align=left>Sustainable Fisheries Act shall contain conservation and management measures that--<P align=left>(1) establish separate quotas for recreational fishing (which, for the purposes of this<P align=left>subsection shall include charter fishing) and commercial fishing that, when reached, result in<P align=left>a prohibition on the retention of fish caught during recreational fishing and commercial<P align=left>fishing, respectively, for the remainder of the fishing year; and<P align=left>(2) ensure that such quotas reflect allocations among such sectors and do not reflect any<P align=left>harvests in excess of such allocations.

</DIV>


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

the NMFS conducts a series of studies and historical info to determine the status of fish species stocks. Here is simple explanation to a complicated system.

They conduct larval and trawl studies which they have done for years where they try to do them in the same locations and same periods of time over the years. They collect larvae and the numbers indicate the size of that year's number of fish as a large number indicates a large year class and a low number a low year class. The trawl studies collect age 0 and age 1 red snapper which helps to verify the size of the year class and how many larvae survived till the next year. They also do video and cage sampling in areas. They use the catch data from both com and rec and they measure and weigh some numbers of those fish and also take the otoliths (ear bones) which they use to age the fish. All of this data is collected from various areas across the gulf. They do stock assessments which are now done through SEDAR (southeast data assessment and review) where they have at least 3 meetings of scientists, state and federal officials, and stakeholders involved in the fishery. The first meeting is about the data where they go over tons of data, keep some, kick some out. They then do an assessment meeting where the info produced by the science center based on the data and run thru computer models is discussed and picked apart and stuff added or taken away. The third and generally last meeting is a review of the first two meeting and the assessment to determine if all the work was done appropriately. The review meeting is run by a panel of independent scientific experts in assessments but not from the area where the species is being discussed. Some times there is a fourth meeting when the 3rd meeting finds something that needs further discussion. After all this, the assessment is run before the scientific and statistical committee which is a committee formed by the council of scientific experts from various universities and state and fed science centers. They review the assessment and then make recommendations to the council about the assessment and recommend acceptable biological catch levels which the council then uses to set the total allowable catch.

Every one of these steps from the sedar to the council action is open to the public so they can attend. The process is wide open. As others andI have stated many times, data is the key, especially when it comes to the rec data. If the nmfs shows a lot of fishing effort then the catch is always high. Effort is directly relevent to catch. This is why we need a real number of anglers catching red snapper because if the number is known we will have a better idea of the amount of effort. If the number of red snapper in known then we have the best data. There is a way to do this.

Hopes this helps, as I said it is a simple explanation but isvery complicated.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Here's a site where you can look at some summarized data that was gathered - you can poke around and also look to seethe methodologies and equations used in their analyses.

<U>http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recreational/queries/index.html</U>


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes I know as I have used this site for years now. I am very familiar with the nmfs and how they work as I have been involved in this management game for over 20 years. It is complicated and takes a lot of time to try to understand as I know few people who do and I am certainly one who does not fully understand it but probably do as well as any layman. The site you provided can be accessed by anyone to view the data collected and see how that compares to what they actually see.


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## need2fish (Oct 2, 2007)

Bob - The link I posted is the one you sent me via email.

For anyone looking at the data it is not the raw (individual survey or observation) data but is a view on a data warehouse where. I assume that the aggregated warehouse data was created via various loads and aggregations from the raw data that was collected. The information looks to have been aggregated and loaded by time series and other various attributes (species, etc). There is a make your own query section but you have to log in to access it. Looking at the methodology used and various input tools, I doubt all the raw inputs (individual survey or observation data) are within one system but instead gathered by various databases and other means, scrubbed (put through some form of validation process) and then loaded into the warehouse for further analysis. 

Mark Griffith


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

you are correct. The raw data is evaluated in two month waves during what they call a wave meeting. These meetings are attended by fed and state personnel where they go over the raw numbers. The numbers included the individual dockside intercepts, the random digit dialing contacts, etc. If a number appears to be questionable, they go back and relook at the number and correct them if a mistake was made. The issues we have had are the random dialing and dockside interviews as they are statistically corrected for an assumed angler universe.


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

for those who would like to see more about stock assessments and the research provided go to this SEDAR site. http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/. You can access all the documents used for all SEDARs. The last red snapper assessment is SEDAR 7.

Bob


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## Drew Mixon (Oct 4, 2007)

tough crowd. whos keeping score, btw?

as and average joe angler, to the average joe anglers out there...

i support a federal red snapper stamp. it'll help count how many anglers are actually targeting snapper. the cost of the stamp will fund the research needed to make accurate counts. if you trout fish, wont cost you a thing. if you snapper fish, you ought to be please for the extra couple of bucks to help create REAL data to help the resource, and your own fishing.

i support to continue regulating for-hire recreational fishing in conjunction with private recreational fishing. it just makes sense. why in the world would you regulate it any other way? that sure aint broke, please dont try to 'fix' it.

thusly, i DO NOT support the SOS plan--in any way, shape or form. it is a dilution of support to selfserve very few. i have seen not one iota of data that would make me think otherwise.

i support our local watchdog groups--the ECRA, the RFRA, the PRFA. without a collective local voice, we are just keystrokes on the web. if you are not supporting these groups, you are doing yourself a disservice.

i support our local marine officials. without their local direction and voice, our local leaders have no idea what we want or need. do you really want Grover telling tallahassee what we need for our marine resources? yikes.

i greatly support the CCA. without an organized, responsible, educated and EXPERIENCED voices, we have no state or federal voice at all.

and lastly, i am a proponent of gamefish status for red snapper. from panama city to pensacola to gulf port to grand isle, if you want to eat a redfish from the gulf coast,you have to catch it yourself--either by yourself, or hired. gamefish status basically saved the redfish. while the snapper does not necessarily need the numbers 'saved', the regulation of the snapper does. if you want to eat a red snapper, you should catch it yourself--on your private boat or on a hired craft. reckon this, along with the snapper stamp, and there should be good data to base sound decisions on. too long has a TINY sector controlled a resource so great, for virtually no gain to the communities that built the resource--built with history, with actually dollars spent to build marinas, to build the reefs the fish depend on, and blood sweat and tears we go through every year to have to actually fight for our privilidge to take the resource we have so carefully cultivated. make the snapper a gamefish, and 75% of the arguements go away. get good data on who is fishing for snapper and wisely establish limts based on that data and virtually every arguement disappears. i expect the snapper limit would go to 5per person in a heart beat, if not more.

cheers.

drew


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