# NOAA does it again!



## cobia02 (Aug 5, 2010)

Well here we go...Sector Allocation has started. A recent obscure article in last week's local FL Today, which is verified by NOAA, states that 17 select charter boats from FL and two other gulf states have received "experimental" permits allowing year round Red Snapper and Gag Grouper harvest for this "year" and if successful the following "year". I think the Destin Princess, Destiny and Sweet Jody got the permits in Destin. Not sure how they were selected but the owner/s are obviously connected in politics in some way. So the corruption continues unabated by the people!


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

is there a link?


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## Scardog7 (Oct 11, 2011)

This has been discussed repeatedly. Why there is not more of a collective outrage is disconcerting. I suppose it will require legal action to halt . . . or, this will be the new status. Apparently, NOAA fels the best way to regulate fishing is to not allow it . . . except through select charter captains.

http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/sustainab...documents/pdfs/headboat_collaborative_efp.pdf


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## cheesegrits (Sep 18, 2013)

Discussed just a couple of weeks ago. Tourists rule while the rest of us drool.

http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f21/snapper-season-opens-next-week-267609/


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Grab a "Mullet Wrapper" adgazine and find the joint advertisments of "Reel Surprise", "Gulf Winds II", and "Zeke's Lady".... They're advertising 8 hour walk-ons for $125.00. But, they had to jump through some hoops for this and I'm sure there are vast limitations. I think they were allocated either 40 2fish days, or 80 one fish days. They also have a seperate reporting system. 
My problem with all of this is that Mr. Crabtree was in agreement on this. Now, some of us Charter boats ARE more equal than others, and very much more equal than us peons with saltwater fishing licenses. Yes, I'm a charter boat owner and operator, but I've NEVER been for sector seperation for one reason. (well maybe 2) First, it simply can't be done fairly. Period. 2nd: I have many friends with whom I fish, drink beer with, and I don't want something they cant have and vice versa. I'll hold my tounge as to what I think of those that do want this.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Burnt Drag said:


> I'll hold my tounge as to what I think of those that do want this.


I won't. They a bunch of crooked cocksuckers...


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## Emerald Ghost (Mar 11, 2008)

Dang, somebody just woke Wade up !


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## Captain Mickey O'Reilly (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks Wade, my thoughts exactly! They will not stop until our Gulf fishery is destroyed. It won't stop with Snapper and Grouper either...


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## Scardog7 (Oct 11, 2011)

Here is what must be the lead douche bag. . .

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/12/bp_begins_advertising_campaign.html

Destin douche .. . 

http://www.co.okaloosa.fl.us/bcc_kelly_windes.html


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## PlaneToSea (Jul 27, 2012)

I saw this in the Destin log - I assume it's the program you guys are talking about?

http://www.thedestinlog.com/outdoor...s-flight-in-destin-on-new-year-s-day-1.257309


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## johnboatjosh (May 19, 2008)

PlaneToSea said:


> I saw this in the Destin log - I assume it's the program you guys are talking about?
> 
> http://www.thedestinlog.com/outdoor...s-flight-in-destin-on-new-year-s-day-1.257309


Yes, that's it. And it's the most disgusting thing I've seen, ever.


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## capthoop (Oct 28, 2007)

You can find the list of the CHOSEN boats on THT. Maybe somebody can paste it here. Only Texas, Alabama, and Florida boats are in it. Mississippi and Louisiana were not included in this political, paid, Buy out NMFS program. It's all about the money!!!!


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## SHO-NUFF (May 30, 2011)

Burnt Drag said:


> Grab a "Mullet Wrapper" adgazine and find the joint advertisments of "Reel Surprise", "Gulf Winds II", and "Zeke's Lady".... They're advertising 8 hour walk-ons for $125.00. But, they had to jump through some hoops for this and I'm sure there are vast limitations. I think they were allocated either 40 2fish days, or 80 one fish days. They also have a seperate reporting system.
> My problem with all of this is that Mr. Crabtree was in agreement on this. Now, some of us Charter boats ARE more equal than others, and very much more equal than us peons with saltwater fishing licenses. Yes, I'm a charter boat owner and operator, but I've NEVER been for sector seperation for one reason. (well maybe 2) First, it simply can't be done fairly. Period. 2nd: I have many friends with whom I fish, drink beer with, and I don't want something they cant have and vice versa. I'll hold my tounge as to what I think of those that do want this.


 I applaud you Mr. Jim Stone. You being a Charter boat owner/operator and supporting what is right and fair for all of us. Money usually wins over Morals and glad to see decent folks like you still trying to make an honest living in an honest way. It will pay off for you in the long run. 
If my boat sank, I would not let one of these ass wipe Captains pull me on the deck that have sold out and supported this sector crap. Again, its morals or money.


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

I'll try.


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## LITECATCH (Oct 2, 2007)

Maybe this will work.


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## HappyHourHero (Jan 31, 2012)

So the outrage is that they are letting select charter boats fish year round while the rest of us get a short season in the summer and maybe again in the fall?


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## amarcafina (Aug 24, 2008)

Be prepared to run your boat at least 25 mile out to find a Red snapper on June 1st.. They are going to clean out all of the close reefs by opening day for us !!!!


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

Okay how does this work and not effect the upcoming season which is supposed to be around 40 days? If I understood the program correctly it was supposed to be a total of 286,000 lbs. Some how NMFS concluded that it needed to be counted in total fish ,not lbs.(which in my opinion is a good thing) So they came up with 55,000 fish total, which works out to be about a five lb. average(which seems strange). If the fish average more than 5 lbs, won't that number be more than 286,000lbs, which would reduce the days/TAC for the rest of us? Am I missing something??


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## PoolBoy074 (May 2, 2012)

amarcafina said:


> Be prepared to run your boat at least 25 mile out to find a Red snapper on June 1st.. They are going to clean out all of the close reefs by opening day for us !!!!


They will prolly close our season :thumbup: because these nuthugger sale outs ended catching the entire Quota..... Hope these 17 gang boats love the taste of crab trees dick......


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

PoolBoy074 said:


> They will prolly close our season :thumbup: because these nuthugger sale outs ended catching the entire Quota..... Hope these 17 gang boats love the taste of crab trees dick......


 "It will not mess up the 40 day season for the other fisherman, not at all," Cox said. "It won’t take any fish away from them. Basically what we are doing is taking the amount of fish we'd normally catch anyway and spreading it out over a longer period of time.”

"That's something we're trying to keep close to the vest," Cox said. "But as we catch these fish, they are minus out of our account. So mine is minus 62 after today," he said Wednesday afternoon standing on the boat.

I wonder how many fish this boat/Capt. has in their account? I honestly don't know what to believe or trust anymore.... There is so much fog surrounding all this, what the truth?


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

They said it was based on historical catch. Whatever the case it will be at least several thousand fish per boat plus not counting the gag quota they get.


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## PoolBoy074 (May 2, 2012)

DI 310 said:


> Okay how does this work and not effect the upcoming season which is supposed to be around 40 days? If I understood the program correctly it was supposed to be a total of 286,000 lbs. Some how NMFS concluded that it needed to be counted in total fish ,not lbs.(which in my opinion is a good thing) So they came up with 55,000 fish total, which works out to be about a five lb. average(which seems strange). If the fish average more than 5 lbs, won't that number be more than 286,000lbs, which would reduce the days/TAC for the rest of us? Am I missing something??


5 lb average..... :whistling: u might get that average surfishing...... That is where they are gonna reduce the tac/days


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

The concept of allocating quota to a group of boats, such as this Headboat Cooperative, has been done before up in the NE when the NMFS approved Amendment 16 regarding sectors - here is a court briefing of what happened when they tried to fight it; http://www.nero.noaa.gov/sfd/Amend16Docs/Reply%20to%20NB%20reply.as%20filed.3.2.11.pdf

My point here is that the Gulf recreational red snapper fishery stakeholders include the recreational fishermen who fish aboard the for-hire vessels as well as private vessels. If and when it comes time to move forward with this Headboat (and upcoming charterboat) cooperatives, they will simply implement it without any referendum at all, and the fishermen will be shut out of the process. I believe this circumvents Congressional will; *"Except as provided in clause (iii) for the Gulf of Mexico commercial red snapper fishery, the New England and Gulf Councils may not submit, and the Secretary may not approve or implement, a fishery management plan or amendment**that creates an individual fishing quota program, including a Secretarial plan, unless such a system, as ultimately developed, has been approved by...... a majority of those voting in the referendum among eligible permit holders with respect to the Gulf Council.**"*

The current EFP is clearly an IFQ, but since it is the cooperative divvies the quota (not the government) to each boat, it circumvents the Congressional mandate for a referendum. Even if they decide to do a referendum, *the fishermen actually catching the fish will be excluded*, and only federally-permitted captains will have a vote. *Since when does owning a federal charter permit entitle one to exclusive access to a Public Trust Resource? *

Here are some numbers to ponder; Alabama/Florida overall red snapper landings are *+_80%* of the total Gulf landings, yet Texas headboats, (comprising about 1/4 of the Gulf headboats), account for *58%* of the total Gulf headboat landings? Doesn't make sense, but since they use the privacy excuse, we cannot see the actual numbers as they relate to each vessel, and they don't want to talk about it.

Also, they were slip-sliding around the idea that their office is responsible for using viable data - 39,000 pounds for the entire Texas CFH fleet equates to only 16 out of 200+ CFH vessels went fishing in 2012? No, entirely bogus, but Crabtree said they HAD to use those numbers. * No they don't.*

According to their numbers for 2012, headboats account for about *14%* of the total Gulf red snapper landings. *However, Texas headboats supposedly account for about 69% of total Texas landings?* Why such a huge discrepancy? They don't want to talk about it.

The 17 headboats comprise about 23% of the total Gulf headboats and when you multiply that by the Gulf wide headboat landings average of 14%, you come out with what should have been 3.2% of the total Gulf red snapper quota - not 5.4%. 5.4% - 3.2% = 2.2% difference. 2.2% / 3.2% = 69% increase given to the 17 boats over the Gulf-wide average.

*It is clear that this headboat EFP has been given unrealistic numbers of fish based on 60% to 70% over Gulf headboat average in addition to the ability to fish from January 1st onward and outside of the regular red snapper seasons that rest of us are forced to fish. This creates a distinct and onerous disadvantage to the boats not participating, with serious financial and business ramifications in the 2 year time frame for those non-participating vessels - a classic Mafia-style strong-arm coercion tactic designed to force their will.*

This headboat EFP is the foot-in-the-door for recreational IFQs - look for a plethora of similar EFPs coming out next month for the charter boats in Alabama and Texas. As usual, the private recs have nothing on the table for consideration because we have no *REAL* representation at the Gulf Council and certainly none at the NMFS either.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## cobia02 (Aug 5, 2010)

*Legal?*

Thanks Capt Hilton for the breakdown of the break down! The system is broke, is going to become more broke, and will stay broke until the cancer of corruption is found and removed. Hopefully law suits will be forthcoming to flesh out if this is even legal. If I had the resources I certainly would want to see the paperwork trail that led to this. It's not even close to the "fairness" that has been part of the mantra of Crabtree and his minions in the past. Unfortunately, the politically connected will hide it well and it will be another uphill battle for the "people". 

I wonder where RFA is? Thought they would have raised the alarm.


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## capthoop (Oct 28, 2007)

Does RFA even exist any more?


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

RFA sent out a press release in December. RFA has done a lot along with several other organizations to try to put a stop to a lot of this crap that is going on. Read the press release below and at the bottom of the page there is a link to the proposed amendment to the Magnuson-Stevens Act. The amendment addresses the catch share/pilot program starting on page 12 I believe along with a lot more changes.



Recreational Fishing Alliance 
Contact: Jim Hutchinson, Jr. / 888-564-6732 For Immediate Release 
December 19, 2013 


CONGRESS UNVEILS PROPOSAL TO REAUTHORIZE MAGNUSON
RFA To Sift Through Details As Saltwater Anglers Look Towards 2014

The Recreational Fishing Alliance (RFA) says saltwater anglers may notice a big fancy gift sitting under the Christmas tree this holiday season, as House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Doc Hastings (R-WA) just unveiled a draft proposal to reauthorize the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act.

So while congressional elves were busily working in Santa's shop in recent weeks, RFA is now actively going through the wrapping with members of the recreational fishing industry to determine if celebrations are really in order for the New Year. 

The draft proposal is titled Strengthening Fishing Communities and Increasing Flexibility in Fisheries Management Act and would renew and amend the Magnuson-Stevens Act - last authorized by Congress in 2006 through fiscal year 2013 - which governs the recreational and commercial harvest of fisheries in Federal waters. 

"This proposal would give regional fishery managers increased flexibility to deal with the complexity of fishery issues and provide economic stability and certainty to fishermen and fishery dependent communities," said Chairman Hastings, adding "It also would improve data collection and increase transparency so that management decisions are based on sound science and all who are impacted by this law can have an active role in the process."

"The Magnuson-Stevens Act has enabled the U.S. to have the best managed fisheries in the world and has been instrumental in providing a framework for allowing regions to address their own unique challenges," Chairman Hastings said, while adding "Yet, as the Committee has heard at multiple oversight hearings, many fishermen and coastal communities that depend on healthy fisheries are currently facing challenges - including sudden severe cuts to quotas, rising costs, and restrictive fishing seasons. 

"I believe there are updates to the law that should be considered that will address these concerns and ensure there is a proper balance between the biological needs of fish and the economic needs of fishermen," said Chairman Hastings.

RFA executive director Jim Donofrio said the key themes of the draft proposal look good and certainly fall into line with the organization's ongoing efforts to reform the law on behalf of recreational anglers. "It's good to see some additional management flexibility when rebuilding depleted fisheries and setting annual catch levels, but we want to make sure that the language written into this draft will not upset the balance of commerce and conservation," Donofrio said. 

"RFA has been fairly vocal about the need to amend the federal fisheries law to better represent the interests and needs of the recreational fishing community, but we certainly don't want to do that at the expense of healthy fisheries either," said Donofrio. 

To read the press release from Chairman Hastings:
http://naturalresources.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=364840

To review the new draft proposal:
http://naturalresources.house.gov/uploadedfiles/magnusonstevensactdiscussiondraft-113.pdf


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

I would like to add that Tom Hilton is working very hard for all of us anglers also. Thank you Tom for all you are doing to help keep us recreational anglers out there fishing.


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## Scardog7 (Oct 11, 2011)

The obese guy from Orange Beach, AL, Randy Boggs, is the lead culprit.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

It is important to note that the recreational fishermen in the Gulf are stakeholders in the fishery - *ALL* recreational fishermen, and that includes those fishermen fishing aboard headboats, charter boats, and private vessels. 

They should *ALL* have a say (vote) in what type of plan is implemented for the Gulf recreational fisheries, but I *HIGHLY* doubt that will ever happen. The "eligible" voters will be reduced to those who stand to profit from recreational IFQs / Catch Shares / Sector Separation, and everyone else ineligible to vote.

If the fisheries were managed properly, there would be *PLENTY* of fish to go around for both commercial and recreational fishermen. But alas, our fisheries are far from being managed properly.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

the numbers are wrong with the head boat pilot program 
1. the poundage is 286457 and the number of fish they are given is 55,527 that adds up to 5.1 pound average Noaa said that the average pound of a red snapper in florid and mississippi is 7.49LB and in louisiana and texas is 8.20LB so how did they come to that number!!!!
2. as of january 8th the number of fish being reported as caught is 365 when on the fist day. the Destin log said that 2 boats the Destiny caught 65 fish and the Sweet jody caught 62 fish for a total of 127 fish that does not include the other 15 boats so you are telling me that since january 1st they have only caught 238 fish between 17 boats? 
the only way we will be able to stop this is to go to the boats and count the fish then compare it to the fish counts reported by the SERO catch shares program!!!!


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Not that I am defending this program, but due to the number of anglers on headboats, they are forced to use methods of fishing (double drop rig with 16 oz bank weight) that usually results in smaller fish. The iSnapper report actually shows a smaller fish average than 5 pounds in the Texas headboat(s) that were participating.

The problem with this Headboat EFP is that they are inflating the numbers of fish based on poundage that is 60-70% higher than the Gulf-wide headboat average. Plus, they are stacking the deck by giving these vessels unfair advantage over their competition FOR TWO YEARS with the ability to fish beginning January 1st onward while the rest of us are prohibited from fishing except within their very narrow time frame of a "season".

I'm not sure how the other headboats are going to be able to survive these next 2 years - could be part of the plan, since Catch Shares are designed to reduce the fleet, and have done so everywhere they have been implemented.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

Tom, you make a valid point here. In the breif "season" in October, many boats that otherwise would have had opportunity to fish, were stymied by the 5+ foot seas. Of that little fall season, my 42' boat made 6 trips. During that time period, guess how many times I was checked by FWC's research folks..... a quick glance at the top of your bait bucket should reveal the number.

ADDED: My point is this, these "chosen" clowns get 40 days of RS fishing whenever the hell they want. We peons are confined to the days they say we can fish. This results in the very thing the Feds were trying to prevent on the commercial side: Derby fishing.
Commercial fishermen died b/c they only had limited days to fish, and some were taking deadly chances by fishing in heavy weather resulting in loss of life.


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

tom i'm not buying that an average is based on all boats together not just the head boats or the boats that are really good at there job i also fish 2 hook rigs and do real well with them i tend to catch the same size fish on the 2 hooks as i do the single hook rigs it usually is more of where i am fishing. If i fish on spots with small fish then we catch small fish if i fish on my better spots we catch bigger fish maybe they are catching small fish because there spots are getting over fished!!!! due to to many people fishing on the spot head boats tend to fish spots dry there are way to many fish being removed from one spot and not enough time to let the fish get bigger i have fished spots for years and will catch great fish but if a head boat fishes that spot i may as well cross it off the list because it will be fished out sometimes for years!!!!! not all people on a head boat fish with 2 hook rigs if you are going to use that logic then everyone on a head boat must be forced to fish 2 hook rigs only or they will screw up the average i know for a fact that not all head boats fish 2 hook rigs the longer trip boats tend to use single hook rigs. 

2nd they are being aloud to fish the entire 40 day season we can not due to weather or we just don't book trips or in my case i fish the bay for trout and redfish or other spices they are aloud to fish when they want so as to pick and choose the best days and there for get the entire 40 day season meaning they are really screwing up the average number of fish being caught because in a normal 40 day season they would only be able to fish maybe 30 days and in some seasons 20 days so they would not be catching the entire poundage now they get the entire poundage!!!

3rd also as you said they can fish when other can't so why would any one get on my boat if they can keep red snapper on there boat at a crucial time of year like winter or spring or fall when there are not a lot of people down here this is a hard time of year to get customers on the boat and they will suck up every bit of business at a crucial time of year that is not fair this must be stopped and stopped now!!!!! 
the next question what can we do together to stop this short of sinking the boats participating in this evil program can we sue? and who can we sue?


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

my point being on averages is if you suck at your job or you over fish your spots them you should not be rewarded by lowering the size of the fish there for giving you more fish to catch it is there choice to fish the way they do it is an average not this boat does good so they can catch less and this boat suck so they get more!!!!!


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## SHO-NUFF (May 30, 2011)

A friend just text me and said She is fishing on the "Destiny" Sunday. 3 marine biologists will be aboard doing testing. Limits will be 2 Snapper, 5 Grouper and 10 Trigger. $65 bucks for a 6 hour trip. That is one hell of a cheap trip.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

You're saying that that's the bag allowed for each angler?


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## SHO-NUFF (May 30, 2011)

Kim said:


> You're saying that that's the bag allowed for each angler?


Yes, that is what she told me.


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## Downtime2 (Sep 27, 2007)

https://www.facebook.com/GulfCouncil

Take a few minutes and at least visit the page and leave a comment or 3...


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

that is not the bag limits it is 2 red snapper and i think but am not sure but i think they charge more to keep snapper that boat might not charge more. 2 gag grouper 4 red grouper or 5 total grouper of both species. 2 trigger fish, 10 b liners, 20 white snapper per person.


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## SHO-NUFF (May 30, 2011)

madfish said:


> that is not the bag limits it is 2 red snapper and i think but am not sure but i think they charge more to keep snapper that boat might not charge more. 2 gag grouper 4 red grouper or 5 total grouper of both species. 2 trigger fish, 10 b liners, 20 white snapper per person.


 Agree, it could be wrong, just quoting what she told me. I will get a report from her Sunday afternoon and see what she came home with from the "research" trip and update the post.

If all is true, its a F'ed up deal. Go on a specially selected party boat and catch Red Snapper and Grouper, but me and the rest of us as boat owners are not allowed to do so. 

NOAA = CockSuckers:thumbdown::thumbdown::


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## madfish (Jan 9, 2014)

SHO-NUFF said:


> Agree, it could be wrong, just quoting what she told me. I will get a report from her Sunday afternoon and see what she came home with from the "research" trip and update the post.
> 
> If all is true, its a F'ed up deal. Go on a specially selected party boat and catch Red Snapper and Grouper, but me and the rest of us as boat owners are not allowed to do so.
> 
> NOAA = CockSuckers:thumbdown::thumbdown::


I couldn't agree with you more it is not fair that only a few boats can go fishing and keep red snapper but the rest can't especially the private sector the real money is in the private sector that is where the money get spread around!!!! I will do everything I can to fight against the tyranny from our government I am a charter fisherman also my run madfish charter in Panama City Florida and I do not agree with anything that the federal government does they're trying to steal our fish from us there trying to ruin our resource this is straight up BULLSHIT they are not there fish to sell their everyone's fish!!!! please do not fish on the head boats or boats that support this you are supporting Catch share if you do!!!!


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