# Wake up! Don't be taken in!



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

The post by our resident Sector Separation supporter and charter captain "Fairwater Fishing (Tom) here on the PFF regarding the weather this weekend (at this link http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f21/weekend-122339/ )may seem like a "friendly" warning not to go fishing in the Gulf this weekend and when you to do go to be careful.

Could it be that perhaps he has another intent? 

Note his use of the word DERBY in his post later on on the same thread> and then read below article promoting "catch share" implementation based on safety.
Which will mean a fish tag lottery for you and I for snapper following the point that Toma and other charter captain's like him take their cut of the recreational reef fish poundage. 

---
Now my advice is don't go fishing until the weather calms down, but once it does start demanding that fishery regulators do their damn job and add back fishing days to the gulf snapper season for this long stint of bad weather. 

Our country sent and returned a man to the moon in the late 1960"s, you would think our federal fishery regulators would have a computer model available to them that could add back days to the snapper fishing season based on bad weather days in 2012 if they wanted to..... 




-------------------------------------- 

*Dangerous fishing derby a backdrop for latest South Atlantic Council meeting*

By Eileen Dougherty | Bio | Published: December 15, 2010 
_Progress made toward catch shares, which will end derbies and provide year-round fishing_
The latest South Atlantic Fishery Management Council (SAFMC) meeting resulted in several positive outcomes for fisheries and fishermen, notably the unanimous votes to add details to the snapper grouper and golden crab catch share programs and seek public input on them in early 2011.
*Dangerous derby a reminder of need for catch shares*
At the same time the Council met, a dangerous year-end black sea bass fishing derby kept many fishermen away from the meeting and served as a reminder of why improving management is urgently needed.
The black sea bass fishery was opened for a short end-of-year season Dec. 1-15. With vermillion snapper off limits, fishermen rushed to catch black sea bass, even in bad weather, to catch as many black sea bass as possible before the season closes. As these fish glut the market, prices stand to drop significantly.
Dangerous fishing derbies like this one are becoming more prevalent as fishing seasons are drastically shortened throughout the region.
Fishermen and communities are struggling as fishermen and fish dealers go out of business. Catch shares are a proven solution to rebuild prosperous fisheries and communities. Catch shares also eliminate destructive derby conditions.
The SAFMC should move aggressively to gather fishermen input on catch share design and feedback on the pending catch share amendments.
*Catch shares improve the safety of fishing*


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

Link not working, interested to read it


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*<B><H2 class="title icon">EDF Progress Report - circa 2010 *_

Via Mark W.
*
Environmental Defense Fund Progress Report

Catch shares are the default tool for managing fisheries in the Gulf of Mexico region*


Over the past year, EDF has helped propel the commercial grouper/tilefish IFQ plan toward implementation, advanced the goal of catch share management for king mackerel and all remaining Gulf reef fish species, helped create essential management building blocks for catch shares in the for-hire sport fishing sector, and continued to support the nation's first industry alliance dedicated to promoting catch shares.

With the vital help of our industry partnerships, we recently ushered the grouper/tilefish IFQ plan to final passage by the Gulf Council in January (13-4 vote in favor). The Secretary of Commerce approved the plan in August and it is set to begin on January 1, 2010. However, higher than expected interactions with threatened sea turtles added a wrinkle to the program. In May, NMFS implemented an emergency closure of the longline reef fishery (of which the grouper/tilefish fishery is a part) to help resolve the problem. To keep fishermen on the water, we targeted converting 50 percent of the fleet, or approximately 50 vessels, to vertical, or ‘bandit’ gear, which has been proven to cause far fewer turtle interactions. EDF immediately launched a grant program for conversion of longline vessels to the vertical gear. To date, applications have been approved to convert 50 vessels, and 45 have converted. Offering the industry an option for staying in business has gone a long way to solidify relationships and trust with both fishermen and regulators.
Our work to promote catch share management for all Gulf reef fish continues to bear fruit. In June, at our urging, the Gulf Council established a new advisory panel to explore a catch share plan for all remaining reef fish, including three subgroups: commercial, recreational for-hire and private anglers. EDF and key allies have secured voting positions on the panel. We expect that the commercial sub-group will easily move forward with a plan to add all remaining reef fish (19 more species in total, including amberjack and gray triggerfish) into the existing IFQ program. The for-hire and private angler sub-groups will explore catch share and accountability measures for reef fish, including red snapper and grouper. The recreational discussions will undoubtedly be long, heated and challenging. Part of their charge is to discuss intersector trading. 
The work we are doing with a core group of for-hire recreational fishermen, whose movement we helped develop and continue to support, called SOS (Save Our Sector), will be important to continue to move catch shares forward in the for-hire sector of the recreational red snapper fishery. SOS now has over 200 supporters across all five Gulf states. This membership, which includes boat owners and crew members, reflects a significant portion of the 1,100 licenses in the for-hire fleet. The group’s work was a key factor in the Gulf Council’s October decision to consider separation of the recreational sector into for-hire and private angler sectors in the generic Annual Catch Limit/Accountability Measures amendment, which will be subject to public hearings in either December or January and likely voted on next summer. The amendment will form the foundation for a for-hire IFQ and harvest tags for private anglers. 
To demonstrate that vessel monitoring systems and electronic logbooks can work in for-hire recreational fisheries and provide the accountability necessary for catch shares, EDF is conducting a two-year pilot project with SOS. Internal discussions with NMFS officials indicate strong agency support for the SOS management plan, which includes use of electronic logbooks, and is resulting in meetings and dialogue among the group, NMFS officials and key members of Congress. While working with key for-hire leadership to develop an IFQ concept design for-hire catch share, we funded and worked with SOS leadership to launch an SOS web site to serve as a consistent source of information for interested parties. 
After almost three years, the red snapper IFQ program continues to meet high expectations. In NMFS’s recent “2008 Gulf of Mexico Red Snapper IFQ Annual Report” the agency states, “… overall, [there are] numerous improvements over the historical derby-style fishing conditions…” Overfishing is being reversed because fishermen are complying with the catch limit, the ratio of discards to landings has dropped by 68 percent, and illegal fishing is declining. The economic signs are also positive. NMFS documents dockside prices at 17 percent higher than pre-IFQ, while fishermen report an increase of 30 percent or more (some data collection problems are not yet fixed). Quota share prices rose by 37 percent from 2007 to 2008, reflecting the scarcity of red snapper and fishermen’s optimism for the future. The number of shareholders has declined by about 15 percent and a few vessels have exited the fishery, indicating that excess capacity is beginning to fall. There continues to be broad support for the program which is contributing to the expansion of catch shares to other Gulf and South Atlantic, fisheries. 
Of course, on-going improvements are needed; high priorities include additional at-sea monitoring, better economic data, and enhanced systems to detect and deter cheating. Fishermen, with new conservation incentives under IFQs, are working to combat one of the remaining discarding problems by seeking to accumulate a “snapper bycatch pool.” The pool would consist of a small reserve of quota that fishermen may access if they happen to catch red snapper beyond their quota, for example, while fishing for other reef fish. This will help take away the misguided justification (e.g., that a fisherman cannot find snapper shares) that a few fishermen still make for discarding snapper. The biggest threat to the continued success of the red snapper IFQ (and other Gulf IFQs) is the inability of regulators thus far to address overfishing by the recreational sector. This problem slows down stock rebuilding and could potentially diminish the positive conservation incentives instilled by catch shares.

Our partner, University of British Columbia, has developed recommendations and is continuing to work with NMFS to better track reductions in red snapper bycatch under IFQ management, information that is critical for measuring success. They are also participating in a red snapper stock assessment update to ensure future annual catch limits are based on the best science. As we expected, NMFS’s recent report (see above) shows a significant improvement over the first year report, but we are working for a much more rigorous and comprehensive report in 2010. These reports are important because they will be used in NMFS’s and the Council’s planned five-year review in 2012. Another project partner, Texas Tech, has started its on-the-water research that will help identify habitat for red snapper spawners so that it can be protected to complement IFQs and speed recovery of the badly overfished stock.
EDF continues to encourage and support fishermen who provide the leadership to advance catch shares. The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders' Alliance, which we helped create, continues to expand its membership of commercial and for-hire fishermen. Its executive director and members are serving on federal advisory panels, have met with members of Congress, and are engaged in helping guide other EDF Oceans regions through challenges. The Alliance is working with Chicago’s Shedd Aquarium “Rite Bite” program and others to move red snapper off of environmentalists’ “fish to avoid” lists by featuring red snapper in eco-friendly restaurants. The program has also received funding and approval to initiate a pre-certification process for Marine Stewardship Council certification. 
Finally, EDF has successfully urged the Gulf Council to establish an advisory panel to explore catch share management for the king mackerel fishery. King mackerel is jointly managed by the Gulf, South Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic Councils. If completed, this will be the first-ever catch share for a coastal pelagic species
</B>​_​
</H2>


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

sniperpeeps said:


> Link not working, interested to read it


 Which link? If you are describing the link to the original thread and cannot get to it. Just look under the general discussion section for the thread "this weekend".


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> The post by our resident Sector Separation supporter and charter captain "Fairwater Fishing (Tom) here on the PFF regarding the weather this weekend (at this link http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f21/weekend-122339/ )may seem like a "friendly" warning not to go fishing in the Gulf this weekend and when you to do go to be careful.
> 
> Could it be that perhaps he has another intent?
> 
> ...


Theway I read (skimmed) these 2 posts, he was simply making discussion and in his way, letting people know to be careful. Did I miss a hidden message?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

No Jim you aren't missing anything.


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## Realtor (Oct 1, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> No Jim you aren't missing anything.


Okay Mark, I read this three times now, I must be stupid and missing something. what are you seeing that I’m not? I only see he used the term "Derby" and you seem not to like that term/word since it’s in another article. 

Your remark above leads me to think I am missing the point. What’s the riddle?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Jim

There is really no riddle and as my original post stated you really should decide for yourself if Tom's (fairwaterfishing) original post concerning the rough weather this weekend was made with a real concern for smaller boat owning recreational fisherman or there was a hidden agenda behind it or was it some of both.

I will state the following:
- across the country where catch share systems have been instituted the terms "derby fishing" "shortened season" have been terms used in talking points by catch share supporters to encourage already sympathetic fishery regulators to institute catch shares. Basically what supporters are saying is that a short fishing season like we have for gulf snapper is a derby " a race for fish" which causes people to take their boats out in unsafe weather conditions like those in the gulf "this weekend" . The term derby was used up in Alaska when catch shares were instituted with safety of the fisherman used as a
Concern. Large swells, cold water,
fisherman racing to commercially catch crab and putting their lives on the line in unsafe weather.

Could it be that our gulf fishery regulators have been influenced by environmental group lobbyists to keep shortening the red Snapper season in the gulf so that the term
"derby" in the context of the Alaska fishing scenario
could be applied in the gulf fishery. I would not put it past them.
what fishery regulators should be doing is coming up with a method of counting fish and counting private fisherman in the gulf instead of forcing catch share systems.

- what will catch shares mean for private boat anglers like me
and the rest of the private boat owning fisherman along the gulf.'Well the current concept calls for charter boats and head boats that are federally permitted to take "their share"' of the reef fish like red snapper from the allocation of the fish currently shared by private anglers and the federally permitted charter boats.
What constitutes "their share" is the sticking point for
me. 

On other forums catch share supporters have stated that their share should be 85 percent of the red snapper allowable catch for recreational fisherman.
Leaving 15 percent of the red snapper to be allocated among private boat owning anglers between Texas and Florida annually in the form of fish tags.
- the best case I have seen is a 50/50 split.
- given that the gulf council advisory panel that will be making the decision now has a majority membership put in place quitely over the past two
Years that are at minimum sympathetic if not outright supporters of charter boat catch shares I am not hopeful that private boat owning anglers
Will get any support for receiving a fair shake when and if this plan is approved.
I envision 3 million private anglers between texas and florida
Entering a lottery system for about 300.000 red snapper tags if this sector separation plan which is on a very fast track for approval is instituted.

Finally, Jim I have met you once and shaken your hand you may not remember. But in any case I know you are a smart man. If you want to learn more Google search the words "catch shares" derby and "sector separation"'.

If you decide to do that google search Jim after reading through the links google spits out, maybe you can repost here and tell me don't worry "Mark" tHe government is going to look out for private fisherman.

Hey I understand most members on the pff just want to catch a few fish to eat when they go out fishing and have a good time with family and friends. I understand that most people don't like or don't want to get involved in
fish politics i don't like them either. I grew up in a blue collar
Fishing family in warrington. The us navy gave me every opportunity I have benefited from including education.

I am only here posting about the sector
Separation plan that is on the fast track for approval because I don't want my fellow pff members to wake up one day to find out that tourists on a charter boat out of orange beach have the ability to catch and keep
A red snapper and our grouper, triggerfish etc when a citizen of the state of Alabama or Florida
Fishing right next to them has no right to catch and eat the same fish.


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

markw4321 said:


> Which link? If you are describing the link to the original thread and cannot get to it. Just look under the general discussion section for the thread "this weekend".


I found it thanks


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Actually I was being sincere, Ive just seen way to much of this stuff this year and someone is going to get hurt over a stupid fish.









45 mins after this pic was taken the winds picked up and it started to white cap, our trip was about over so we kept an eye on them as we trolled in. They got there buts kicked for 8 miles but at least they had a couple coffee cans for bilge pumps!


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## sureicanfish (Sep 30, 2007)

^^^ who cares what anyone gets out in the water in, EVERYONE has access to coast guard regs and proper safety equipment. if they CHOOSE to go out in a small boat, then they CHOSE. Im guessing, by your tone and apparent feelings toward civilian anglers, you gave this guy the bare minimum of respect, and i bet he was probly there first and you put your more deserving boat right where you felt like. (otherwise im sure you would have made special mention....)


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## Deeplines (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm not much for this sector thing but I'm with Fairwaterfishing on this one. Just cause the season end is close don't be stupid this weekend. Hell, God knows I might try it if I were home LOL!!!


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm scratching my head reading this thread.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

sure said:


> ^^^ who cares what anyone gets out in the water in, EVERYONE has access to coast guard regs and proper safety equipment. if they CHOOSE to go out in a small boat, then they CHOSE. Im guessing, by your tone and apparent feelings toward civilian anglers, you gave this guy the bare minimum of respect, and i bet he was probly there first and you put your more deserving boat right where you felt like. (otherwise im sure you would have made special mention....)


Na we were at the trolling alley 8 miles south of Orange Beach, we fish next to small boats all the time no big deal, sometimes I go out and shoot the crap with guys fishing next to me. Whats funny about the picture painted on here about me, its so not true, i'm really a nice guy and have helped out several small boats in my 20 year or so tenure on the gulf. If any of y'all ever need any help I stand by on 72. If any of y'all ever need any advice just PM me and I will tell you what I know. Just because I want a better management plan for my business does not make me a monster that everyone on here thinks I am. We are tired of this derby fishery and you should be too. There has to be a better way than whats going on right now. So far the Sector Separation is the only real plan thats being talked about that actually might go somewhere and help us all out. Guys here are the facts of the situation if we dont stop overfishing our TAC (total allowable catch) were not going to have a snapper season and thats the truth!


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Na we were at the trolling alley 8 miles south of Orange Beach, we fish next to small boats all the time no big deal, sometimes I go out and shoot the crap with guys fishing next to me. Whats funny about the picture painted on here about me, its so not true, i'm really a nice guy and have helped out several small boats in my 20 year or so tenure on the gulf. If any of y'all ever need any help I stand by on 72. If any of y'all ever need any advice just PM me and I will tell you what I know. Just because I want a better management plan for my business does not make me a monster that everyone on here thinks I am. We are tired of this derby fishery and you should be too. There has to be a better way than whats going on right now. So far the Sector Separation is the only real plan thats being talked about that actually might go somewhere and help us all out. Guys here are the facts of the situation if we dont stop overfishing our TAC (total allowable catch) were not going to have a snapper season and thats the truth!


Tom,
To be clear I don't think you are a "bad guy" I just think that you and the rest of the captains that pushed through and got the environmental defense fund sector separation scheme into scoping along with potential reallocation of fish are about to jump through a hoop that our federal fishery managers have set up for you. In other words you all would not be allowed to succeed in what you are doing unless dr. Roy Crabtree himself agreed to it. I have heard dr. Crabtree speak in favor of sector separation face to face myself. 

My only question is how will sector separation be better for me the boat owning bottom fisherman that fishes out of Pensacola and every trip is dedicated to bottom fishing? Can you tell me how many fishing opportunities for red snapper I will have under sector separation? What percentage of the recreational allowable catch does the head boat and charter group plan to receive?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

_My only question is how will sector separation be better for me the boat owning bottom fisherman that fishes out of Pensacola and every trip is dedicated to bottom fishing?_ Well I don't know, but unless you buy yourself a 50 foot boat when the weather is rough you can not go out and are missing days of red snapper fishing that you can not get back right? What I mean is under our current management plan a small boat owner should be way more pissed off that I am, up to June 24th I had only missed 5 days due to weather, I have seen very few small boats out there so I know that you guys are missing way more of this than I am. IMO there should be a plan out there for all the true recreational guys so that they don't lose Red Snapper days due to weather. 
IMO the cca, and rfa should be coming up with a plan that will get this for you. Are they really doing this? If they are please enlighten me to what this plan is. 
_What percentage of the recreational allowable catch does the head boat and charter group plan to receive?_ Only the percentage of fish that we have historically caught not one fish more. I don't believe that this will end up being a 20 year history because it would sway heavily to our side. Last year we only caught 31% but this year we will catch probably over 60%. I would say that it needs to be an honest average of the last 5 years but thats not really my call but I would say that would be fair. If this was divided truly fair it would not cost you a single day of fishing due to sector separation, but let me tell you what will cost you fishing days. Thats over fishing your TAC, we have been doing ever since they have given us a TAC, and with the repayment clause it continues to cost us days. If we (CFH) were separated and the charter guys have verifiable means of accountability, thru VMS and electronic reporting, we will not overfish and will start to gain days instead of losing days. The CCA and RFA needs to come up with a plan of accountability that the council will listen to.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

So you really can't tell me what percentage private boat owner's will receive? That does not sound like the plan is guaranteed to "be better" for me personally as a private boat owner then does it?

How about these questions how will the allocation be provided to private boat owners ? I have heard fish tags is that true?


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

Aren't they asking for 50%? I did, however, hear one of sector proponents on the council reference a number closer to 30%. What is it, Tom?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Well Mark since this is in just the baby steps stages there are no guarantees that this is going to be better for anyone, that is why the pilot programs are starting to try to find out what might work. You and I should agree that there has to be something done to try to make it better. Just for you to know in this latest gulf council meeting the CCA shot down the idea of tags. Mark you probably are the most educated person on this forum about this issue, and really the only guy on here I can hold a decent conservation without personal bashing. ( I appreciate this). The way I am thinking though is that educated thinking person like yourself should be thinking of a way for the private boat owner fishermans season to better itself, instead of picking apart a plan that a bunch of educated thinking Charter For Hire guys have come up with. I say that with full respect for you and everyone else on here. Right now there is so much energy spent trying to tear apart an idea, when there needs to be more ideas put on the table. Ideas that the gulf council will listen too. CCA and RFA should be leading the way to help you guys out. The whole SOS plan was put together by just a few people. A plan to help the true recreational fisherman could be put together right on this forum, with just a few of you coming up with the ideas, then tell CCA and RFA your either with us or your against us. If you need ideas to start or ideas on what will work and what will not work just e-mail your council members and ask questions about your ideas, or call Roy, he does return all calls by the way and ask him.


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Boom. No longer scratching my head.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom
I have personally worked to improve a draft plan that has been submitted to the council anually for the past 3 years then updated an resubmitted again in an attempt to get the council to move on it. 

My thoughts are that they "the council" many who are sector separation supporters don't want to move on it because they really don't want to know the real numbers that are fishing from private boats in the gulf and catching red snapper, triggers etc. if they did find out the real numbers they would probably be forced to relook at whatever allocation percentages they were considering based off the historical headboard/charter boat landings they are looking at.

In fact that is the problem I have with the sector separation to begin with, is the gulf council does not know what the level of effort of the private recreational fleet and the inshore guides is in terms of reef fish catch, but they are moving ahead quickly to implement a plan that will give them a "fair share" allocation?

Seems like the plan that is moving forward will ensure a fair share to the head boats and the rest of us will have to be content with feeding off the crumbs that fall off the table.


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

During the last council meeting, one of the members (commercial fishing representative) stated that sector separation is not even on the table. Yet, people in the know, like Tom, seem to have a different perspective.

Anyone care to elaborate?


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Who is "Tom" and is he really "in the know"?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Bill Braskey said:


> During the last council meeting, one of the members (commercial fishing representative) stated that sector separation is not even on the table. Yet, people in the know, like Tom, seem to have a different perspective.
> 
> Anyone care to elaborate?



Sector Separation is just an idea that has been talked about over the past few years. Its an Idea for a plan. If Amendment 39 is passed in August, it will be looked into even more as a viable plan, its several years from being anything.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Bill for a perspective on "how it went" for private anglers recommend reading through the thread at the following link. It will take a while but it should provide insight on what happened.

http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?59122-Gulf-Council-Meeting-in-Tampa


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Tom
> I have personally worked to improve a draft plan that has been submitted to the council anually for the past 3 years then updated an resubmitted again in an attempt to get the council to move on it.
> 
> My thoughts are that they "the council" many who are sector separation supporters don't want to move on it because they really don't want to know the real numbers that are fishing from private boats in the gulf and catching red snapper, triggers etc. if they did find out the real numbers they would probably be forced to relook at whatever allocation percentages they were considering based off the historical headboard/charter boat landings they are looking at.
> ...


The head boats do fish a lot of people each year. They are trying there best to be there separate sector also. See they want to be able to manage there business different than the regular charterboats, because they are different than the regular charterboats. 

There is talk about taking some allocation from the commercial side. See the commercial side does not really need a whole bunch more fish, it would just flood the market and drive prices down. So they will be fishing more just to make the same money. They really have the whole process in there pocket right now. They are the only group that does not over fish there TAC and they even leave 5% of there TAC swimming in the gulf each year.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> The head boats do fish a lot of people each year. They are trying there best to be there separate sector also. See they want to be able to manage there business different than the regular charterboats, because they are different than the regular charterboats.
> 
> There is talk about taking some allocation from the commercial side. See the commercial side does not really need a whole bunch more fish, it would just flood the market and drive prices down. So they will be fishing more just to make the same money. They really have the whole process in there pocket right now. They are the only group that does not over fish there TAC and they even leave 5% of there TAC swimming in the gulf each year.


I don't disagree that the commercial guys are tightly controlled. I don't disagree that sector separation could provide some head boat/charter boat captains a better business model and allow them to fish any day they choose as long as they don't go over their individual poundage. Though I think those for hire
Operators that are part time, small and on a shoe string budget could get eliminated. I foresee in the future at some point a time that federally permitted charter captains with a poundage quota out of sector separation being able to purchase commercial ifq snapper and grouper poundage and fish it as their charter poundage. 

That may be good for you and your dedicated
charter boat customers. What I don't like is that I may be fishing a spot next to a federally pemitted charter boat at some point In the future and the paying charter boat customer from tupelo Mississippi that would not know what a red snapper was if it bit his big toe off
could have the right to catch and keep a reef fish that I could not keep in my own boat. Don't get me wrong the guy from tupelo has a right to catch and eat a snapper I just don't think he should have more of a right to do so.


I also forsee a time in the future no matter what allocation private anglers get out of the percentage cut that the same lobbyist EDF, that are pushing this
Plan and the well funded commercial and for hire captains with a large business
Model will band together to take more and more of the allocation that is provided to private boaters.
They will say things like: we are professional captains. Private boat owners are unsafe. Private boat owners burn a lot of gas we are. More efficient and safer than private boaters. Private boat owners hurt the environment there are two many of them.
Private boat owners kill a lot of fish through discards. And for all of the reasons just stated the snapper/reef fish allocation for private anglers should be reduced and or eliminated and given to the commercial and charter fleet operators
With a reef fish allocation. As soon a a the sector is seperated and you guys get your allocation I expect the argument to take allocation from private anglers to start in full swing. I mean after all it's just business and "fish politics" right? so anything goes...


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Tom
> I have personally worked to improve a draft plan that has been submitted to the council anually for the past 3 years then updated an resubmitted again in an attempt to get the council to move on it.
> 
> My thoughts are that they "the council" many who are sector separation supporters don't want to move on it because they really don't want to know the real numbers that are fishing from private boats in the gulf and catching red snapper, triggers etc. if they did find out the real numbers they would probably be forced to relook at whatever allocation percentages they were considering based off the historical headboard/charter boat landings they are looking at.
> ...



Mark done a little research on this and the majority of Gulf Council members are true recreational and CCA members. There are just a couple that are commercial and 2 that are for hire. So I don't understand why they are not acting on your plan.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

*What I don't like is that I may be fishing a spot next to a federally pemitted charter boat at some point In the future and the paying charter boat customer from tupelo Mississippi that would not know what a red snapper was if it bit his big toe off
could have the right to catch and keep a reef fish that I could not keep in my own boat. Don't get me wrong the guy from tupelo has a right to catch and eat a snapper I just don't think he should have more of a right to do so.* This is the reason you need to go to your CCA and RFA officials and demand a accountable plan, and will increase recreational access and stay within the rebuilding plan guidelines. At the last meeting the True recreational guys a bunch of CCA higher ups were challenged to come up with this plan. Probably cost the tax payers 20 grand to get these guys together. They totally threw out the idea of tags and had no recommendation to the council. The report was an embarrassment to all the recreational guys on the council. There recommendations was basically to go down kicking and screaming. This is the association that yall give your money to for representation. Its time to do this yourselves and quit depending on CCA and RFA to do it for you. Start your own group, name yourselves, come up with a plan and start getting support.


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> *What I don't like is that I may be fishing a spot next to a federally pemitted charter boat at some point In the future and the paying charter boat customer from tupelo Mississippi that would not know what a red snapper was if it bit his big toe off
> could have the right to catch and keep a reef fish that I could not keep in my own boat. Don't get me wrong the guy from tupelo has a right to catch and eat a snapper I just don't think he should have more of a right to do so.* This is the reason you need to go to your CCA and RFA officials and demand a accountable plan, and will increase recreational access and stay within the rebuilding plan guidelines. At the last meeting the True recreational guys a bunch of CCA higher ups were challenged to come up with this plan. Probably cost the tax payers 20 grand to get these guys together. They totally threw out the idea of tags and had no recommendation to the council. The report was an embarrassment to all the recreational guys on the council. There recommendations was basically to go down kicking and screaming. This is the association that yall give your money to for representation. Its time to do this yourselves and quit depending on CCA and RFA to do it for you. Start your own group, name yourselves, come up with a plan and start getting support.


A bad plan is still a bad plan. Implementation should only ensue when a good plan is reached, not the best worst plan.


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

markw4321 said:


> Bill for a perspective on "how it went" for private anglers recommend reading through the thread at the following link. It will take a while but it should provide insight on what happened.
> 
> http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?59122-Gulf-Council-Meeting-in-Tampa


Thanks. I will read.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Mark done a little research on this and the majority of Gulf Council members are true recreational and CCA members. There are just a couple that are commercial and 2 that are for hire. So I don't understand why they are not acting on your plan.


Tom 
I am talking about voting council members. Let's put it this way, bob gill a gulf council member was hand picked by NOAA to assist in implementing catch shares in fisheries across the country and dr Crabtree of course the southeast region director is a catch share advocate.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Who are the voting members? Lets get a list and check out there affiliation.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Statements of Financial Interest 
Voting Members Council Committee Roster - 2010
Representative​
Appointed​Sector​​Phone/Fax​​

Florida​​
Edward W. Sapp
5505 NW 91 Blvd. Gainesville, FL 32653
2008
Recreational
352-377-2715



Robert Gill, Vice Chair
7330 W. Golf Club Street Crystal River, FL 34429
2006
Commercial
352-795-1916
352-795-4355


Julie Morris 
New College 
Assistant Vice-President Academic Affairs
5800 Bay Shore Road
Sarasota, Florida 34243
2001
Other
941-487-4527
941-487-4201


Alabama​​
Robert Shipp, Chair
Dept. of Marine Sciences
University of South Alabama
Life Sciences Bldg., Rm 25
309 University Blvd.
Mobile, AL 36688 

1991-2000 2005
Recreational
251-454-7481
251-460-7357


John R. Greene, Jr. 
Intimidator Sportfishing, Inc. 
25833 Tealwood Drive 
Daphne, AL 36526 
2009
Recreational
251-747-2872



Mississippi​​
Kay Williams 
9905 Wire Road 
Vancleave, MS 39565 

1997-2006 2007
Commercial
228-826-2160
228-826-3135


Thomas McIlwain 
Gulf Coast Research Lab 
703 East Beach Drive Ocean Springs, MS 39564
2006
Other
228-818-8866
228-818-8848


Louisiana​​
Harlon Pearce 
606 Short Street 
Kenner, LA 70062 
2006
Commercial
504-467-3809
504-466-1503


Damon McKnight 
Super Strike Charters, LLC 
401 Legendre Drive Slidell, LA 70460 
2009
Recreational
985-960-1900



Texas​​
Michael Ray
Texas Department of Wildlife and Fisheries 
4200 Smith School Road Austin, TX 78744 
2007
Other
512-389-4649
512-389-8177

Joseph Hendrix, Jr.
Sea Fish Mariculture
P.O. Box 19497
Houston, Texas 77224
2002
Commercial
281-597-1620
281-870-8041



State and Federal Voting Representatives

Florida

William Teehan, Section Leader, Marine Fisheries.
(designee for Nick Wiley)
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission Division of Marine Fisheries
Farris Bryant Building
620 South Meridian Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32399
850-487-0554
850-487-4847

Alabama

R. Vernon Minton, Director or
Kevin Anson (designee)
Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources
Marine Resources Division
P.O. Drawer 458
Gulf Shores, Alabama 36535
251-968-7576
251-968-7307
Mississippi
Corky Perret
(designee for William Walker)
Department of Marine Resources
1141 Bayview Avenue, Suite 101
Biloxi, Mississippi 39530
228-523-4082
228-374-5220

Louisiana

Myron Fischer
(designee for Randy Pausina)
Louisiana Department of Wildlife & Fisheries 147 West 107th Street
Cut-Off, LA 70345
985-787-2163 or 985-258-6006

Texas
Robin Riechers
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, Texas 78744
512-389-4645
512-389-8177

NMFS
Dr. Roy Crabtree, Regional Administrator
Phil Steele (designee)
National Marine Fisheries Service
263 13th Avenue South
St. Petersburg, Florida 33701 
727-824-5301
727-824-5320


--------------------

Tom

voting member list is above. keep in mind where it says "recreational" that can be a charter boat captain for hire member currently.

You can understand hopefully given the current sector separation plan on the table that i as a private boat owner might not feel that I am being "fairly represented" by a charter for hire captain voting on the council as a recreational fisherman.


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## marcuswon (Apr 5, 2010)

i don't know all the finer details.but for a cfh,head boat to have more rights to fish than me as a privet boat owner and weekend fisherman is wrong in any way you want to look at it.i am a business man to. i don't think it would be right for me to force someone to pay me for my service that they could do their self.but if we gonna make it this way lets get a regulation that makes it illegal for you to work on your own boat or car and have to bring it to my shop or another licensed shop.it is greed that is pushing this.for me to own a boat and have to pay someone to take me fishing in the same place that i could take my self is nothing but a legal way to rob me. i under stand some of the things that the cfh people are saying.but it's still not right to rob from Peter to pay Paul.
i guess i need to find out how to become a licensed cfh boat so i can get my fair share of fishing rights... started go on cfh boats when i started salt water fishing but as much i was doing it it was cheaper to buy my own boat.now i will be forced to go back to paying to fish if i want to catch and keep fish..
the thing i don't understand is that the recreational fisher-person probably out number the cfh and head boats 10 to one.so in the end the more of us that quit fishing the more money everyone loses.cause i think we spend way more than the cfh and head boats do for fuel,tackle and anything related.cause most of the cfh and head boat don't buy new boats or gear like the recreational fisherman dose.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

I think there is only two federally permitted charter boaters though. If there recreational state license guide boaters then really there just like you. Have no dog in the fight.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

True but you also have to look at who is pulling the strings and how much money is being spent.*Total project expenses: $1,664,147 *

*Project Report:*
Safeguarding Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish through Market-based Management *Purpose*
- Explores and develops market-based solutions.

Many stocks in the Gulf of Mexico's reef fish fishery (including red snapper, grouper, amberjack, grey triggerfish, yellowtail and vermilion snapper) are in trouble, with some classified as overfished. EDF and Gulf fishermen helped design and implement a new market-based management program of catch shares, called individual fishing quotas (IFQs), which was implemented for commercial red snapper in January 2007. EDF is working to bring IFQs to the full Gulf reef fish complex. 
EDF continues to encourage and support fishermen who provide the leadership to advance catch shares.* A year ago, we helped to create a Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholder's Alliance*, which seeks to protect and expand Gulf reef fish catch shares and has tremendous potential as a model. With a grant from the Walker Foundation, EDF is helping support the Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholders' Alliance, which is working to expand catch shares to all commercial reef fisheries and to engage the seafood industry in demanding high quality, sustainably caught fish managed under catch shares. *Alliance membership is expanding to include for-hire recreational fishermen and provides a forum for discussions of future intersector trading of fish quota between commercial and recreational fisheries. *

The Alliance has three key priorities for its first year: 1) initiate and participate in a federal management process to extend IFQ management to all Gulf of Mexico commercial reef fisheries by 2012; 2) maintain and increase conservation and economic benefits of IFQs preventing threats, including those from sportsmen urging managers to reduce commercial quotas to increase angling; and 3) explore options for eco-friendly designation of its members’ high quality fish. 

The Alliance has now launched a website (http://shareholdersalliance.org/) providing information to fishermen and other industry and regulatory stakeholders. To secure and advance catch shares management for the Gulf of Mexico reef fish complex, Environmental Defense Fund (EDF) helped long-time fishing allies in the Gulf of Mexico form the nation’s first industry association dedicated to promoting market-based fishery management approaches. Founding members of the Alliance were instrumental in establishing the region’s first catch share program in 2007, an IFQ for the commercial red snapper fishery. Scientists recently concluded that the red snapper population, though not recovered, is showing signs of a comeback after decades of decline. As a result, fishermen are being rewarded for their conservation success with a 40 percent increase in their catch in 2010. At the same time, IFQs have helped fishermen improve and stabilize dockside prices, reduce the costs to harvest fish, and provide higher quality fish to consumers. These improvements have led to an impressive growth in value of $60 million since the implementation of IFQs. While there is still a lot of work ahead to fully rebuild the red snapper stock, this is tremendous progress for fisheries management, fishermen, local communities and the marine environment. 

*In 2009, EDF and the Shareholders’ Alliance built on the success of the red snapper IFQ, playing a leading role on the advisory panel established by the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council to explore extending the IFQ program to additional Gulf reef fish species. As of January 2010, 18 species were added to the IFQ, and EDF and the Alliance are now working with the Gulf Council to incorporate the remaining commercial reef fish into the program. *

*In addition, the Alliance and its partners are studying the thorny problem of bycatch in the reef fish fisheries, and it is working with EDF and the Gulf Council to explore ways to expand catch shares management to include recreational fishermen*. Through a partnership with several environmental organizations and public aquariums, the Alliance is also seeking new avenues for marketing high value, wild caught fish from the Gulf’s sustainably managed catch share fisheries. 

Extending the IFQ to other reef fish stocks 

Building on the success of the commercial red snapper IFQ program, the Alliance played an important role in expanding it to include 18 additional reef fish (groupers and tilefishes) to further reduce ecological damages and improve the economic performance of the Gulf of Mexico’s reef fish industry. Following an overwhelming approval of the catch share program by fishermen, the Gulf Council approved it with a strong *13-4 vote, and implementation began on January 1, 2010. EDF and Alliance members who served on the federal fishery advisory bodies helped design the new program, and fishermen are enthusiastic about the smooth transition. *

*Now the Alliance is focused on extending the IFQ to the remainder of commercial Gulf reef fish (vermilion snapper, amberjack, king mackerel, and others). The group helped convince the Gulf Council to establish a new advisory panel to explore this option, and won six seats. *Some of the key challenges ahead will include establishing science-based catch limits and setting allocations between the commercial and recreational sectors. 

The Gulf’s successful experience with catch shares is also helping spur adoption of catch shares in other U.S. fisheries. Alliance members have been invited to share their experiences with regulators, elected officials, fishermen, environmentalists and others at more than 10 events with fishermen from the west coast to the east coast. 

. *With EDF, the Alliance is working to promote these new strategies through Council processes, bringing in leaders from the for-hire sector to help design and advocate for new management approaches*. 

With the help of the Alliance, EDF is also seeking to block the success of, and find common ground with, sport anglers (the Coastal Conservation Association) who have filed a lawsuit to halt the new IFQ program on the grounds that it violates several provisions of the Magnuson Act. Management solutions may be somewhat different for anglers. Together we are working with private anglers and angling groups to develop new management ideas that will increase accountability while allowing these fishermen greater access to fishing throughout the year. 

Final Financial Report 

Personnel (includes benefits) $569,297 
Consultants 562,167 
Travel 76,691 
Regional Meetings 26,947 
Grants & Passthroughs 161,475 
Printing/Supplies/Media 96,781 
EDF Indirect Costs @ 16% 170,789 

Total project expenses: $1,664,147


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom you are on a winning team with millions behind it to push their plan through. Just make sure you stay close to leadership so when the allocations get meted out you get what is due.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

marcuswon said:


> i don't know all the finer details.but for a cfh,head boat to have more rights to fish than me as a privet boat owner and weekend fisherman is wrong in any way you want to look at it.i am a business man to. i don't think it would be right for me to force someone to pay me for my service that they could do their self.but if we gonna make it this way lets get a regulation that makes it illegal for you to work on your own boat or car and have to bring it to my shop or another licensed shop.it is greed that is pushing this.for me to own a boat and have to pay someone to take me fishing in the same place that i could take my self is nothing but a legal way to rob me. i under stand some of the things that the cfh people are saying.but it's still not right to rob from Peter to pay Paul.
> i guess i need to find out how to become a licensed cfh boat so i can get my fair share of fishing rights... started go on cfh boats when i started salt water fishing but as much i was doing it it was cheaper to buy my own boat.now i will be forced to go back to paying to fish if i want to catch and keep fish..
> the thing i don't understand is that the recreational fisher-person probably out number the cfh and head boats 10 to one.so in the end the more of us that quit fishing the more money everyone loses.cause i think we spend way more than the cfh and head boats do for fuel,tackle and anything related.cause most of the cfh and head boat don't buy new boats or gear like the recreational fisherman dose.


Marcus good points!


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## sureicanfish (Sep 30, 2007)

marcuswon said:


> ....it is *greed* that is pushing this....i guess i need to find out how to become a licensed cfh boat so i can get my fair share of fishing rights...


perfectly stated! there really is no other argument


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Ok Mark, that was a good and mature discussion, and Im sure we both have taken points made into consideration. I made several points about CCA and RFA and you have not defended anything that I said about those associations, It seems to me you kinda walked around those commits I made. Are these associations looking after you or are they looking after there agenda? What do you think about the CCA?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

sure said:


> perfectly stated! there really is no other argument



Its not that hard, want me to find you a boat? I know of several for sale, pretty decent prices, how big of one do you want? What color? Multi-or 6 pack?


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## marcuswon (Apr 5, 2010)

i don't think anyone is really looking out for me but me.most of the association are all about the money.they can say what ever. i do agree that we need to have real anglers for anglers not people like politicians.i know you have a business to run but don't think some of the stuff you are for is right.i am not saying bad things about you and will not.you have your thoughts and i have mine.you have helped me in the past on getting a charter when you where full and think of you as a friend since i have known you for some years now.but i just don't think for any reason that my rights or your should betaken away.we are equal by all men,god and the Constitution.me having to go back to paying you to have the right to fish freely is wrong.again it is greed.


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## marcuswon (Apr 5, 2010)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Its not that hard, want me to find you a boat? I know of several for sale, pretty decent prices, how big of one do you want? What color? Multi-or 6 pack?


 OK but as you are pointing out in this statement is you have all of this time and money into your boat and gear.now lets turn it around.what about the ones of us that also have all this time and money in our boat and gear?don't want a dollar for dollar story.it dose but dose not matter on the amount of money just the principle.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Marcus, no disrespect but you really need to get educated on the whole ball game going on here and not just what you read on a fishing forum. If the true recreational people don't come together and get organized & learn about whats really going on its not going to be good. You are very right about. " *i do agree that we need to have real anglers for anglers not people like politicians"* Just make sure before you support an association you know where they and you stand. Find out what there plan of action is. Ask questions and question everything they stand for. Right now there is a lot of stuff going on in this fishery, its public knowledge, yall get some of it. If you truly know me you will know that greed is not even in my vocabulary. If you dont just ask some people that do know me.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom

with repsect to the cca and rfa. I am currently unafilliated with either. 

I do appreciate cca rejecting fish tags because i don't see how they could legally not open a lottery for fish tags nationwide. Everytime the noaa lawyers talk they always remind people that the fish we are discussing "belong" not just to gulf coast fisherman but to the people of america. Therfore, would seem to me a man living in indiana would have the same right to apply to get a red snapper tag as a man living along the gulf coast with a boat rigged for bottom fishing.

I would like to remind the noaa lawyer(s) that the foundation and reason for the regional councils, such as the gulf council , was in the beginning to serve the various user groups, fisherman- commercial and recreational alike that lived and fished in that region so that there needs could be served through the regional council process. It was only when lobby and environmental groups out of D.C. started showing up and lobbying the council process that we got to where we are to day in my mind.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Statements of Financial Interest
> Voting Members Council Committee Roster - 2010
> Representative​
> Appointed​Sector​​
> ...


"*My thoughts are that they "the council" many who are sector separation supporters don't want to move on it" *

Mark I only know a few of these people personally, which ones are the sector separation supporters or who do you think EDF has in there pocket? I know you believe Roy is, so do I, we have had discussions over dinner a few times but he never just came out and said it. I have just had my feelings about it. 
I just have to believe with such a diverse bunch of voters it has to be pretty fair.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Remember there are only 2 federally permit holders CFH on the council. No commercial fisherman that has a boat, one that has a fish house.


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## marcuswon (Apr 5, 2010)

i guess the term for you should not be greed.but for you to support something that takes rights away from someone Else and make you have more is not right.i know it is your lively hood.


> you really need to get educated on the whole ball game going on here and not just what you read on a fishing forum.


well i have been reading what i see here and have googled it and read what i have found there.but some of it is over my head.needs to be in lay-mens terms.but don't like the parts i do understand.from what i under stand it just needs to be 50/50 and we all have to report what we catch.it might not be a perfect system but would be more fair than giving more to a cfh or head boat just because it is there business.its just like the tagging system they did a few year ago here.nothing will be a 100%.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

*Tom,*


As far as plans go> when I first heard about sector separation and fish tags, I made a suggestion to a group of charter for hire sector separator supporters that maybe the total recreational snapper poundage should be divided by the average weight of fish and that number of fish tags issued for sale to the general public for use as individual fisherman asthey pleased.

In other words no allocation of recreational pounds to the charter for hire sector, but if the people who had a tag in their hand got together and wanted to hire a charter boat they could do that. Or if a person who got a tag owned a boat he or she could use it on their own boat. 

For some reason those charter for hire sector separator supporters did not like that plan. Would you go for the above plan? I mean the above plan does serve to put the Tags in the hands of "the people"....

As for other plans I could support right now below is the latest version of the plan i could support. I would add that before any allocations are made I would like the below plan to run 2-3 years. 


*The OFS Permit Plan - A Viable Option *
The OFS (Offshore Fish Species) Permit would be an annual boat permit patterned after the existing HMS (Highly Migratory Species) Permit, would cost $20/year for the boat permit, would not restrict the access into the fishery, and cannot be traded, leased, or sold. It would negate any need for sector separation / catch shares, and would regulate every recreational fishermen the same, whether they are fishing from a private rec vessel, cfh vessel, or headboat. 

It would use the use of modern technology that every fisherman has in his pocket right now - an ordinary cell phone. No need to purchase expensive iPads or related data plans. It would require a 1 minute hail-out whenever you clear the jetties to go offshore - I have setup a sample Automated Voice Response System for you to try out @ *(866) 579-2293 *. It's a demo, so it only has 3 ports as options, but it could be setup to identify your port by inputting the first 4 letters of your ports like you do on automated answering services when calling someone.

The captain of the boat would be responsible to hail out and input the information, and would be given a confirmation number for his trip. This is key to enforcement - if a LEO checks you while offshore or at the dock cleaning fish, you would need to show him your confirmation number. If you didn't hail out, you will be fined. If you are an egregious violator, you could lose your OFS Permit.

The database derived from this system would go to a web portal where it would be made available to anyone who is interested in this near real-time data on offshore angler participation. It would show how many vessels, whether they are private rec, cfh, or headboat, how many anglers are on those vessels, what port they are fishing out of that day, whether they plan to fish state/federal, or both waters, and whether they plan to target pelagics only, reef fish only, or both.

Imagine being able to determine exactly how many total anglers went fishing out of Freeport, Texas today, whether they were on a private vessel, cfh, or headboat, etc. Or, how many fishermen ventured offshore in the ENTIRE Gulf today. How many were pursuing pelagics only (lots of marlin/wahoo fishermen aren't fishing for snapper). How many were fishing Texas State Waters only today, etc. etc. You could query the database any way you want.

The system would be relatively inexpensive to implement (starts at $89/month (total), but would have to be increased due to the volume of calls), but could easily be paid for by the $20 fee. It could handle any number of calls - let's say 1,500 people call in at once - no problem. If we could get all 5 Gulf States fisheries management programs to enact a coordinated OFS Permit system, it could blow the doors off of the smoke and mirrors that the feds are currently using to justify the removal of our fishery access.

Landings data could be extrapolated from this hail-out system without the need to hail-in. If however, captains already have an iPad, they could opt to use the iSnapper program as part of the OFS Permit program, inputting even more data, such as landings/discards data if desired.

This could aid in developing a regional management system.

I know that some people will not like the idea of requiring us to hail-out every time we venture offshore, but the concept revolves around engaging the fishermen in the data collection process, giving them an open, transparent venue to see actual offshore participation almost real-time. This could lead to 6 month (or longer) red snapper seasons. It also provides a viable alternative to the sector separation/catch shares/ifq mess that we are staring down right now - if we don't work to provide an alternative solution, they will force their enviro-scripted/funded plan upon all of us.

The current claims by the NMFS that we are taking 6 trips this year for every 1 trip we took in the 1995-2006 years simply doesn't pass the smell test - this is an inexpensive, simple, easy way to provide the badly-needed accurate data to counter the voodoo numbers game that the feds are currently using.

Call the 1-866 number - let me know what you think.

Capt. Thomas J. Hilton ​


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> "I just have to believe with such a diverse bunch of voters it has to be pretty fair.


Why is there even a vote? The feds are saying the snapper are being over fished. If they are so confident in their science they why are they being commercially fished still? 

Seems to me they have everyone arguing about a problem that should not be a problem to begin with. Stop the commercial fishing and you stop the over fishing. If Clyde in Michigan wants to eat red snapper he can drive down here and catch it himself.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Have you ever sat through a whole gulf council meeting Jon? Ever been to one? The commercial side is the side that does not over fish there TAC. The recreational side is the side that goes over every year. Your commit is the kind of commit that has been holding us all back for years, its a pipe dream, its something that is unattainable in this world we live in. There are real issues that the recreational side could have some impact on if they could just come together and have some realistic goals and have a plan of action that would really work.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Remember there are only 2 federally permit holders CFH on the council. No commercial fisherman that has a boat, one that has a fish house.


The fish house owner is Bob Gill and he was on the front end of catch shares as a task force member -see below. The commercial reps will vote for sector separation as it would benefit them in that the future is to be able to trade poundage turning commercial poundage to charter for hire poundage for increased $$$$ per pound. The academics (the "other" reps) will likely suport it. What academic wouldn't. I think the votes are there for you guys if that is a concern for you.


Summary of Catch Shares Briefing for Environmental Organizations
July 23, 2009 (2-3:30pm)

Monica Medina, Task Force Chairperson, thanked participants for attending and providing their input on catch shares. She reminded the participants that NOAA is developing a policy, not a regulation, and that catch shares will not be considered a “one-size-fits-all” solution for every fishery. NOAA thinks catch share programs are good tools worth consideration and any impediments to their consideration need to be remedied.

Ms. Medina summarized the work of the Catch Shares Task Force to date. She described the process by which participants were selected, and that the group is not a federal advisory committee – participants are providing their individual thoughts. The current briefings are a way for NOAA to gather information from interested parties as it moves forward. The policy, once issued, will be a draft/interim policy that will go into effect immediately, but will be open for public comment for a minimum of 90 days.

Ms. Medina then opened the meeting to questions:
-There was a question about how the catch shares policy will interface with the Limited Access Privilege Program (LAPP) guidance for the Magnuson-Stevens Act (MSA). NOAA responded that the catch shares policy is focused at high level principles whereas the LAPP guidance is focused at a more technical level. They will both come out in the fall and will reinforce each other. Participants recommended that NOAA have very clear guidance for the councils on how to implement these programs and comply with the law.

-Several participants stated that the policy should have the councils focus on establishing performance and economic/environmental goals, and then look to all Fishery Management Plan choices that may achieve those goals. This includes the ability to satisfy the now required annual catch limits and accountability measures. To measure performance, every fishery should also have a scientifically-set Total Allowable Catch (TAC) and plans should ensure that TACs are being met.

-Fisheries such as recreational and for-hire boats have potential to make catch share programs complex. One participant suggested that NOAA should consider the for-hire fishery as a distinct group.

-A question arose about the cost estimates for potential catch share programs. Ms. Medina informed the group NOAA is working on securing more resources for catch share programs, and that successful programs will help to make the case for additional funding in the future. One participant cautioned NOAA not to shunt too many resources away from other high priority NMFS programs and statutory deadlines.

-Participants encouraged the consideration of cost recovery and resource rent both for the purpose of collecting financial resources for the programs, and because there needs to be a compelling argument why a public trust resource would be privatized.

-Some participants each pointed out that they are convinced that catch shares are not appropriate, at least in the short term, for international HMS fisheries.

-Several participants recommended that to make catch share programs effective, they need to: directly address concerns about consolidation; require sound science, good monitoring and enforcement; involve flexible options for councils to consider; and consider adaptive management strategies.

-Some groups are concerned about making catch shares a “de facto” tool, and requiring councils to defend cases where they are not using them; they worry that these requirements will encourage councils to implement catch share programs too quickly or otherwise invest time in activities that will interfere with meeting other MSA requirements. Ms. Medina stated that it is a challenge between not moving too fast and yet encouraging councils to get started as soon as possible.

-Participants pointed out that catch shares may not be ideal for some fisheries such as those with “…bad observer coverage, dirty gear types, known bycatch/discard issues or discard issues that cut across fisheries, councils and states.” NOAA is trying to develop criteria that councils can use to evaluate the potential of fisheries for catch share consideration.

-Some groups voiced the need to consider socioeconomic effects, and that the policy should support sustainable livelihoods and communities (MSA National Standard 8).

-After implementation, performance reviews are an essential part of catch share designs. Several participants strongly recommended that the agency require mandatory reviews to measure the success of catch share programs. This review process can also be a time to examine how capital is being made available and the effects of the program on the community.

-There were multiple comments that councils are currently overburdened and need assistance from the agency to move catch share consideration forward. Councils want more information about catch share and LAPP programs, and would benefit from cross-council information-sharing to learn from each region’s experiences in catch share programs.

-Ms. Medina stated that NOAA’s initial target was 90 days to review and comment on the draft/interim policy. The participants were thanked for their time and input and told that a similar briefing would probably be organized once the agency has a draft policy on paper. The briefing ended at 3:40pm.

*NOAA Representatives*
Monica Medina NOAA Special Advisor to the Under Secretary
Jim Balsiger NMFS Acting AA
Mark Holliday NMFS Policy Office
Jessica Dutton NMFS Policy Office
Rachel O'Malley NMFS Sustainable Fisheries
Sasha Prybowoski NOAA Communications

*In the Room*
Amanda Leland EDF
Diane Regas EDF
Michael Hirshfield Oceana
Carmen Revenga TNC
Dawn Martin SeaWeb
Anthony Chatwin National Fish and Wildlife Foundation
Vishwanie Maharaj WWF
Philip Chou Pew Environment Group
Gerald Leape Pew Environment Group
Kathryn Semmens Pew Environment Group
Lee Crockett Pew Environment Group
Scott Burns Walton Family Funds
Mike Dunmyer Ocean Champions
Patrick Collins Ocean Champions
John Hocevar Greenpeace
Ken Stump Marine Fish Conservation Network
Ellen Bolen Ocean Conservancy
Amy Kenney Fisheries Leadership and Sustainability Forum
Marianne Cufone Food and Water Watch
Bill Chandler Marine Conservation Biology Institute

*On the Phone*
Ben Bowman Food & Water Watch
Roberta Elias WWF
Bill Fox World Wildlife Fund
*Bob Gill Catch Shares Task Force *
Barry Gold Gordon & Betty Moore Foundation
*Eric Olson Catch Shares Task Force *
Laura Pagano Natural Resources Defense Council
*John Pappalardo NOAA *
Astrid Scholz Ecotrust
Matthew Wright Compass


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

*As far as plans go> when I first heard about sector separation and fish tags, I made a suggestion to a group of charter for hire sector separator supporters that maybe the total recreational snapper poundage should be divided by the average weight of fish and that number of fish tags issued for sale to the general public for use as individual fisherman asthey pleased.

In other words no allocation of recreational pounds to the charter for hire sector, but if the people who had a tag in their hand got together and wanted to hire a charter boat they could do that. Or if a person who got a tag owned a boat he or she could use it on their own boat. 

For some reason those charter for hire sector separator supporters did not like that plan. Would you go for the above plan? I mean the above plan does serve to put the Tags in the hands of "the people"....

As for other plans I could support right now below is the latest version of the plan i could support. I would add that before any allocations are made I would like the below plan to run 2-3 years. *

Mark its a great plan, most of us would be all for it. Guess what CCA shot it down, they are so strong on the council that there is no way. CCA is the reason that Sector Separation will take so long, also CCA will be the reason we will all go down kicking and screaming till there is no federal season left.


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## marcuswon (Apr 5, 2010)

The recreational side is the side that goes over every year........ how do we know this.are we guessing?at this point i don't know of any way they know how much the recreational fisherman catch?do you have to report everything you catch?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Which plan is a great plan?


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Have you ever sat through a whole gulf council meeting Jon? Ever been to one? The commercial side is the side that does not over fish there TAC. The recreational side is the side that goes over every year. Your commit is the kind of commit that has been holding us all back for years, its a pipe dream, its something that is unattainable in this world we live in. There are real issues that the recreational side could have some impact on if they could just come together and have some realistic goals and have a plan of action that would really work.


They shouldn't over fish their TAC Tom when they get 51% of it with how many true commercial boats fishing the entire gulf now? So 51% of the TAC goes to how many boats? Its not many, maybe you have the exact number. 

The point I am making is that the feds are so backasswards that they say snapper are being over fished, would it not make sense to you to shut down the commercial guys 1st? 

Just because you and some others have come up with a plan that benefits you does not make it a "plan". If so, here is my plan, shut down all commercial fishing and leave it to rec fishing only for every species. There I have a plan, its just as stupid as SOS....

Im going to bed, its been a long weekend fishing and I still haven't recovered. I'll check back tomorrow with you...:thumbsup:


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Man look at all of those environmental groups up there, ever felt overwhelmed? I know we have the sector separation group trying to secure the for hire side. Who is there thats going to come in with the right tools to save the recreational side? In politics which I really hate with a passion but its life as we know it, its in everything from fish politics to the church you attend, you must have representation that can work the politics in your favor.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I am out for tonite. t I would advise you to be careful Tom. Up in the northeast when the same type thing occurred and catch shares were instituted, the leaders of a group like the gulf share holders alliance and the new name for the SOS group I can't think of it now ended up with the lions share of the split out in pounds. A lot of operators were left out.


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## whome (Oct 2, 2007)

markw4321 said:


> I would advise you to be careful Tom. Up in the northeast when the same type thing occurred and catch shares were instituted, the leaders of a group like the gulf share holders alliance and the new name for the SOS group I can't think of it now ended up with the lions share of the split out in pounds. A lot of operators were left out.


Exactly my point from a few days ago...It looks good to a lot of those guys right now, but the back door meetings that no one knows about are occuring and a majority of the CFH guys will be out of business within a few years...


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

marcuswon said:


> The recreational side is the side that goes over every year........ how do we know this.are we guessing?at this point i don't know of any way they know how much the recreational fisherman catch?do you have to report everything you catch?


Exactly! Thats is what the charterboats are tired of. We are asking for VMS reporting, Electronic reporting, We want to prove that were not out there right now fishing, we want to prove that there are not 1100 permit holders catching snapper, We want all of our fish counted for real, just as the commercial side is so there is no mis-information. Unfortunately for this to happen we will have to separate from the rest and buy expensive equipment for this to happen.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Which plan is a great plan?[/QUOTE
> 
> I think some sort of tag system would work, it sure worked for the ducks. As long as CCA is there, its a no go.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> I am out for tonite. t I would advise you to be careful Tom. Up in the northeast when the same type thing occurred and catch shares were instituted, the leaders of a group like the gulf share holders alliance and the new name for the SOS group I can't think of it now ended up with the lions share of the split out in pounds. A lot of operators were left out.[/QUOTE
> 
> Were about all out of days as it is, there is nothing left to lose!
> 
> Night all, good discussion!


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

Capt. Jon Pinney said:


> Exactly my point from a few days ago...It looks good to a lot of those guys right now, but the back door meetings that no one knows about are occuring and a majority of the CFH guys will be out of business within a few years...


Simply by listening in on a couple of meetings, it's rather obvious that much of the discussion led by the pro-SS crowd is planned and rehearsed beforehand. It's disgusting.

City councils are bound by the Sunshine Law, and it seems to be prudent to apply it here as well.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I personally don't like the idea of tags because i don't believe you could restrict them in terms of who could apply to use them. The NOAA lawyer(s) always pipe up and say as a remnder that the gulf fish belong to the "american people" not just the fisherman along the gulf coast when they are talking to a private recreational fisherman. What that means to me is that just because you and i have purchased a boat and live in a gulf state and consistently each year access the gulf fishery to fish for grouper and snapper NOAA doesn't think we are special under any circumstance. 


What I think it is absurd is that at the same time that NOAA lawyers talk about "the gulf fish belong to the "american people"" when talking to a private recreational fisherman. The same lawyer(s) don't seem to have a thing to say, when you consider the fact that there is currently an elite group of gulf commercial fisherman that have been granted the rights to fish for thousands of pounds of snapper and grouper under their name and federal permit (read $$$$ here) by our federal government each year, and when you consider that same scenario is what sector separation is about for the for hire industry.


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## my3nme (Oct 9, 2007)

*Here you go....*

http://www.thehulltruth.com/gulf-coast/435620-ofs-permit-plan-viable-option.html

It isn't difficult to come up with a plan. A plan that satisfies all is the problem. Add to the fact that groups get lobbyist involved and you create a cluster. I suggest all, weaqther you are a for hire or rec guy, once you think you have the fisheries on your side you are screwed. Peace


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## GandyGirl (Aug 10, 2010)

Guys, you're looking at an old list of Council members here is a link to an updated version: http://www.gulfcouncil.org/about/fishery_council_members.php
Also, if you would like to see the breakdown analysis of different sector separation scenarios based on different years you should email me and I'll send you the scoping document (that will now be combined with allocation). [email protected]


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## SaltAddict (Jan 6, 2010)

Any conversation where I bring up the poor data collection (recreational) I get nothing but song and dance. I can speculate all day long about why I don't get an honest answer, but at the end of the day, I honestly don't know. What I am absolutley certain of, the current method(s) of data collection are (________________________________) <--insert my previous sentence in the blank.


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## captwesrozier (Sep 28, 2007)

if LA. goes to 6 months state water open to snapper fishing this will force TX back to at least 6 months. FL and AL will be forced to go with opening state waters and the federal government will close federal snapper fishing.

then those captains such as Fairwaterfishing will be out of business or loose there permits.

problem solved.

as for all of Fairwaterfishing anglers we nearshore captains will be glad to take on those extra anglers and make sure they get their 2 snappers per day!


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## aroundthehorn (Aug 29, 2010)

Wow, this thread has been remarkably civil. Kudos to all.


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## Kim (Aug 5, 2008)

It's something that affects us all and one that has no readily apparent answer that will work for everyone concerned. Sooner or later something will have to be decided one way or the other. However, as the SOS guy pointed pout, if we don't have some type of organized group to represent recreational anglers with a credible purpose, plan and means of implementation we may be left by the wayside wondering what happened.


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> I think some sort of tag system would work, it sure worked for the ducks. As long as CCA is there, its a no go.


I bet it's a lot easier to count ducks, isn't it?

And I just joined CCA. For that motivation, I thank guys like you!


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

captwesrozier said:


> if LA. goes to 6 months state water open to snapper fishing this will force TX back to at least 6 months. FL and AL will be forced to go with opening state waters and the federal government will close federal snapper fishing.
> 
> then those captains such as Fairwaterfishing will be out of business or loose there permits.
> 
> ...


Capt. if you think i'm going anywhere your dreaming. I could just as easily put both of my permits on my bream boats and be right there with you with 20 head. You will find that plenty of big charterboats and head boats will do the same thing, and fish when its rough. Your 9 mile border will be a desert in about 7 days. This is the reason were fighting so hard for this not to happen. You will find that state non-complaince will be the worst thing ever for now state licensed fishermen, if the feds shut the offshore down.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Kim said:


> It's something that affects us all and one that has no readily apparent answer that will work for everyone concerned. Sooner or later something will have to be decided one way or the other. However, as the SOS guy pointed pout, if we don't have some type of organized group to represent recreational anglers with a credible purpose, plan and means of implementation we may be left by the wayside wondering what happened.



Great comment and so true!


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## sniperpeeps (Mar 5, 2011)

No matter what is decided, I just want some honest to goodness science to decide the fate of the snapper fishery. If it is over fished or if we have a booming population, real scientific research should be able to determine that. The bottom line is they have us bickering between each other about a fish that there is no solid scientific evidence that it is over fished. Let's see some real data, obtained by a method that doesn't leave 99% of it to guess work and hypothesis. Then, if they are really and truly overfished, then let's figure out what to do about it. Look at the redfish population and its comeback.....why could that not be so with the over fished red snapper? We as fisherman don't need to bicker between each other no matter what our background. We need to get the politicians who we vote for on our agenda or out of office. Just my .02 cents as someone who hopes to have a future in this industry.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Hey guys I’ve said it before the only way we are going to have a say in this fight is to get behind and support these people who are in Washington fighting for your rights to stay on the water. There are a lot of you like me that can not make these meetings and need and want your voice heard. Just like the NRA meetings we all can not make those meetings so we are members and pay our dues to pay for our voice to be heard in Washington. One of the strongest groups out there right now is the Recreational Fishing Alliance. I encourage all of you guys to join and join right now if you have not done so. Just like the NRA the more members you have the stronger your voice is going to be heard by having the funding to put the people in our organization in Washington. 

I have not yet seen any other organizations other than the RFA that has a strong voice in Washington and is making head way with all these issues we are facing. Please guys do your homework and see for yourself what RFA is doing. We all have to ban to together and now is getting to be to late. Get behind them and let’s ban together now. If you don’t even join please go to the website and sign up for news bulletins so you can see what is going on and be able to respond when they need you to contact your legislators. 

Thanks
Debbie

Below is example of what RFA has accomplished recently. Please check on links and read what has happened and what is coming up this fall. 

http://www.joinrfa.org/Press/SenSchumer_060412.pdf This is taking place this fall. Very important.

http://www.joinrfa.org/Press/SoutherlandGrimm_050912.pdf Amendment passed

http://www.joinrfa.org/Press.asp?Archive=Press2010 Website showing what is being pushed in Washington.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Just asking what is RFAs plan to give you more access to the fishery? What is there plan for accountability measures? What is your associations plan?


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwater that's why I asked you to please do your homework and read what FRA is doing. Have you gone in to website and read any of RFA's reasons behind what they are doing. You need to read first hand info and not my interpretation of FRA.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just asking what is RFAs plan to give you more access to the fishery? What is there plan for accountability measures? What is your associations plan?


And no not to give me more access to keep my access rights to my fair share. That being said don't think accountability will be neccessary. And there for that is the plan. And to fix the Magnuson-Stevens Act to have correct data where we can all work together without sector seperation.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Its called statics quo management. This has been proven not to work over the last 15 years. Lets all go down kicking and screaming plan! Its not for me, and should not be for you.


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## Bill Braskey (Apr 7, 2010)

Here is a good opinion (not mine) regarding Sector Separation (excuse the formatting):

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*There has been a lot of noise lately coming from a small group of for hire 
business about sector separation. Firstly I would like to say is this; “We 
are not separate sectors. Everyone who fishes on a for hire vessel is a 
recreational angler, just as they are on my vessel. The only difference is 
that the anglers on the for hire vessel paid for the opportunity to fish, 
while those on my vessel are there by my invitation. The reality is; that 
for hire guides and captain provide the conduit to allow recreational 
anglers an opportunity to fish. Would we consider a fishing pier that 
charges a fee as a for hire vessel?
I must ask: Why would one recreational angler, just by virtue that he paid 
someone else for the opportunity to fish, be granted special Status? 
Did I not pay for my access to the opportunity to fish? Do I not purchase 
licenses and permits? Did I not have to purchase my boat, the fuel, the 
bait and supplies?
The point being made is whether they are paying someone else or paying it 
for themselves there is NO DIFFERNCE between an angler on a for hire vessel 
and one on a private vessel. In this country we do not create special 
classes of citizens and single them out for special treatment based on who 
they paid for their access. The captain and crews of a for hire vessel are 
not the recreational anglers, it is the clients they carry who are the 
anglers. Those clients deserve no more right to a portion of the 
recreational allocation of recreationally caught fish than any other 
recreational angler.
Remember this is not about the captain or crew, they are not the anglers, 
they are just the mode of transportation for the anglers. One could think 
of it as this; a charter boat is but a taxi and a head boat is just a bus 
and the riders in these taxis and buses are going fishing. These riders 
deserve no more special treatment than the guy who has to ride the bus to 
go down to the local seawall to fish, would this grant the bus driver 
special access privileges? Recreational anglers catch fish for the pure enjoyment of catching fish and 
having fresh seafood on their table. It is not about profit, it is not 
about commoditizing the resource, it is about fair and equitable access to 
the fishery and THE OPPORTUNITY TO FISH
The only reason a very few in the for hire sector want to separate is so 
that they can claim for their own private use and profit a share of the 
recreational fishing quota for various species. This is reminiscent of the 
Charter Boat Permit moratorium, where a few charter operators pushed for 
this to eliminate competition and prevent new entries into the fishery. 
The result was that a permit that cost them $22 dollars was suddenly worth 
thousands of dollars. If sector separation is allowed to go through 
(against the wishes of the majority of recreational anglers) then those 
that NMFS picks as the winners will suddenly realize a windfall. Once 
again the value of their permits will go up exponentially with the amount 
of quota NMFS assigns. So let’s be honest here! The majority of anglers DO 
NOT WANT THIS, not the for hire nor the private.
This is being pushed by a vocal minority of anglers in the Gulf of Mexico 
to try and squash competition and new entrants, and lock up a portion of 
the fishery for their own personal gain. They are doing it with support 
from various NGOs like the EDF; whose stated purpose is to implement Catch 
Shares and IFQ in the Gulf of Mexico as the management tool of choice. 
Well we have to ask; why is EDF being granted such wide spread access to 
make such important decisions regarding the lives of anglers in the Gulf of 
Mexico? Also how is it that NMFS allows a NON-Profit to have such 
influence over the rule making process; a situation that is clearly in 
violation of their non-profit status and FEDERAL LAW! 
There will be no management advantage gained by sector separation. It will 
not increase the biomass of the species, it will not reduce pressure, it 
will not increase habitat and it will not result in a single byte of 
increased data.
As you contemplate the scoping of such a project please ask at every step; 
“What is gained by dividing the recreational community?” The majority of 
the recreational fishing community is opposed to this, the majority of the 
for hire captains and guides are against this; Let’s do the right thing 
and find real management solutions for our recreational fisheries TOGETHER 
not SEPARATE. Remember IT IS ALL ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY TO FISH.*


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