# Thank you Obama...



## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

I just heard fantastic news. According to WEAR Obama is going to vacation in Florida next month for the weekend. If we are lucky he will come to Pensacola beach. That way the whole beach can be closed down so no businesses can make any money. It would also be great to have 98 closed and no boating in Santa Rosa Sound for that weekend. Cool. But I bet the country will get some great photos.


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

Wait... FOX News was up in arms because he went elsewhere for vacation this month.

The fact that Obama shows the gulf is open for vacations is a BAD thing?

Yeah, traffic will be TERRIBLE for a few days. 

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Jim


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

yes, I think it is bad. Whoever gets him is gonna lose all their income for the weekend, except the hotel who gets to host him and his posse. Imagine if he stays at the Hilton. They will shut everything down from Pickens to Portifino. Honestly, how many people are going to say, "gee, our president went to Florida so I should too." The money would do much more if it went to help the waitresses, cooks, clerks, etc.


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## SHunter (Jun 19, 2009)

Some on the forum were complaining that he was vacationing in Maine instead of here and it was also on WEAR. Can't have it both ways.


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

and Jim, don't forget we need to go fishin soon.


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

SHunter said:


> Some on the forum were complaining that he was vacationing in Maine instead of here and it was also on WEAR. Can't have it both ways.


I didn't see that. I'd rather he stay in Maine.


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## Bullshark (Mar 19, 2009)

Yep. Don't fight it. I have noticed the church aspect has been turned up a notch with Glenn Beck. I am a firm believer it's all the same. They make things that should not matter a matter and both parties tend to follow the same path. Divert the attention away from what they are trying to do. I do think Obama is a pon. Out of nowhere and inacts the largest amount of restrictions/government controle of private business in American history. He will be voted out but he has done his job for both parties which are the same. Remember Bush pushing for the bail out the last month in office. It's funny how there is alway 1 republican voyer to switch sides with his or her vote to get law through.


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## SHunter (Jun 19, 2009)

Someone questioned why he wasn't coming here. I can't remember which thread. Sue Straughn said something about it on channel 3.


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## SHunter (Jun 19, 2009)

I have to agree with you Bullshark. I don't see much difference.


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the publicity, I just think it is a stupid thing to do to an economy that is struggling to stay alive. One bad weekend is enough to crush way too many businesses. Factor in hurricanes, poor weather, etc... Bad news.


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## SHunter (Jun 19, 2009)

It may be a crapshoot Spooney, it could go either way. After the criticism I was kind of surprised that he would come to the Gulf Coast. If they choose P'cola I will avoid the area.


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## jspooney (Oct 2, 2007)

I live in GB so I can't avoid it. We'll have to wait and see what happens.


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

Bullshark said:


> Yep. Don't fight it. I have noticed the church aspect has been turned up a notch with Glenn Beck. I am a firm believer it's all the same. They make things that should not matter a matter and both parties tend to follow the same path. Divert the attention away from what they are trying to do. I do think Obama is a pon. Out of nowhere and inacts the largest amount of restrictions/government controle of private business in American history. He will be voted out but he has done his job for both parties which are the same. Remember Bush pushing for the bail out the last month in office. It's funny how there is alway 1 republican voyer to switch sides with his or her vote to get law through.


I believe Glenn Beck is playing fast and loose with his religious rhethoric. Apparantly he is "hearing from God"... 

He wanted to do better than the "Million Man March" though is realizing that might not happen thanks to the economy, and organizing, and such.

Here's the plan.

Restoring Honor - 8.28.10

He's being more careful now though to predict the outcome...

Jim


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## Marine Scout (Nov 18, 2007)

jim t said:


> Wait... FOX News was up in arms because he went elsewhere for vacation this month.
> 
> The fact that Obama shows the gulf is open for vacations is a BAD thing?
> 
> ...


Some people are bitching for the fun of it !! +100


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## Bullshark (Mar 19, 2009)

jim t said:


> I believe Glenn Beck is playing fast and loose with his religious rhethoric. Apparantly he is "hearing from God"...
> 
> He wanted to do better than the "Million Man March" though is realizing that might not happen thanks to the economy, and organizing, and such.
> 
> ...


They bitch about how the Dems are trying to get their hands in the $ and private industry then it seems like they are trying for the same idea with our soul and morallity. "Help us restore the values that founded this great nation." When I see this and hear him bring up religion ever 5 minutes on his program it is a red flag for me. And to make it an official trainwreck they bring in Palin. Palin is the reason I have come to the they are working together conclusion. They have all the cards in their favor for the next election and that is the face they choose? I really liked the Bama guy until the hearings for the last justice. I would rather listen to Randy Shannon recite Shakespeare than watch her dig the holes she does. I just wish they would give me my fishing back so I have less time on my hands to listen to the back and forth.


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## Hydro Therapy 2 (Sep 11, 2008)

He's coming down for a weekend get away.


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## wirebiter (Jun 4, 2008)

I just wish I had half the vacation time that SOB has. Is there a month since he has been in office that he hasn't been on vacation?


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## Seegul51 (Oct 1, 2007)

Based on what I saw when I was in Hawaii, and he was there also, that part of the Gulf will be shutdown too. There will be a lot of gun boats in the area on the ICW and the Gulf. Maybe they will put him at the portafino with all the liberal lawyers.


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## Emerald Ghost (Mar 11, 2008)

Bullshark said:


> They bitch about how the Dems are trying to get their hands in the $ and private industry then it seems like they are trying for the same idea with our soul and morallity. "Help us restore the values that founded this great nation." When I see this and hear him bring up religion ever 5 minutes on his program it is a red flag for me. And to make it an official trainwreck they bring in Palin. Palin is the reason I have come to the they are working together conclusion. They have all the cards in their favor for the next election and that is the face they choose? I really liked the Bama guy until the hearings for the last justice. I would rather listen to Randy Shannon recite Shakespeare than watch her dig the holes she does. I just wish they would give me my fishing back so I have less time on my hands to listen to the back and forth.


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Hey Jim and Bullshark,
I looked at the Beck page for the gathering you referred to, and I listen to him on TV. I regularly see Beck referring back to our Founding Fathers and their belief in God, as a guide in their shaping of this once great nation. 
Is there something wrong with that ? 
Did you know that Tea Party numbers in just one year now represent 
1 in every 5 Americans, 20% and growing. 
I am for firing EVERY member of Congress and starting over. And before you judge me as a quack, just look at our financial situation and the direction that this country is headed. If you guys have a better idea for addressing our problems, I'm all ears.


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## Bullshark (Mar 19, 2009)

I feel the belief in God and the values those men had due to being a Christian is what gave this country it's base. But religion is personal and has no place other than a personal place with the person in government. Otherwise it is used to create fear or it leaves groups of people out. As far as Beck he is using fear. I heard him say this administrations use of God to further it's agenda is evil and he quoted some verse. Then he starts this to further his. It's madning to me. The tea party people need to watch out who they attach themself to. P.S. we vote the same way. Regardless of how pissy I sound it's by far the lesser of 2 evils to me.


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## Buckyt (Oct 1, 2007)

I don't trust any of the SOB's from either side.
They are all in it for themselves and their personal interest. I wish we had someone I could vote for, not against!


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## Emerald Ghost (Mar 11, 2008)

Bullshark said:


> I feel the belief in God and the values those men had due to being a Christian is what gave this country it's base. But religion is personal and has no place other than a personal place with the person in government. Otherwise it is used to create fear or it leaves groups of people out. As far as Beck he is using fear. I heard him say this administrations use of God to further it's agenda is evil and he quoted some verse. Then he starts this to further his. It's madning to me. The tea party people need to watch out who they attach themself to. P.S. we vote the same way. Regardless of how pissy I sound it's by far the lesser of 2 evils to me.


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Yeah,...... well you still haven't posted any pictures from the party.
give em up !


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## cyd (Mar 24, 2008)

*Political Parties.*

There are only two difference in the republican and democratic parties. Both are going to take your money and redistribute the wealth. The democrats are going to tax the working man and give it to the poor and the republicans are going to give tax breaks to the rich. The second difference is when the democrats see the working man down and out they offer him a hand to help him up. When the republicans see the working man down and out they say "kick him and make him want to get up". In either case, whichever party is in power is going to bend the working man over and make him squeal like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance".


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## SHunter (Jun 19, 2009)

Interesting perspective on the parties Cyd.


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## Bullshark (Mar 19, 2009)

Emerald Ghost said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah,...... well you still haven't posted any pictures from the party.
> give em up !


It's next week and I got out of going. There is only so much I can take. My wife has a few aunts I can not stand and she hit me with the whole they are staying in the next hotel room over deal last minute and I had to put the breaks on that situation. So no pics from me.


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## Diesel (Jan 9, 2008)

cyd said:


> There are only two difference in the republican and democratic parties. Both are going to take your money and redistribute the wealth. The democrats are going to tax the working man and give it to the poor and the republicans are going to give tax breaks to the rich. The second difference is when the democrats see the working man down and out they offer him a hand to help him up. When the republicans see the working man down and out they say "kick him and make him want to get up". In either case, whichever party is in power is going to bend the working man over and make him squeal like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance".


They will destroy the working (Middle) class, and I don't know what you mean by defining (Republicans) as giving tax breaks to the "rich." The Republicans generally give tax breaks across the board as those who don't make much don't pay much federal tax anyway, FICA generally eats them up especially self-employed. Tax breaks help build an economy, through reinvestment of the money into new business and expansion of existing ones, that's a fact. Which I'm pretty sure our economy is in need of right now, I mean heck the whole 2 trillion dollar stimulus provided a whopping .000002% increase in jobs so let's just stick with that instead of proven methods that have worked in the past. I'm well aware Bush started the first stimulus package, and I was pissed about that too. Oh and your right about the Dems taxing the working man, one of the cute ways they are going to fund our new "Medical Makeover" is by taxing you on the amount your employer contributes to your health plan. So much for not raising taxes on those making under $250K. This is just the beginning just wait until the VAT tax shows up. 

Oh, one other thing to the guy talking about Glenn Beck ( Bullshark I believe), the Constitution mentions nothing about the separation of church and state ( it was an idea espoused by Jefferson), It states the government shall not establish a state sponsored religion. Anyways, since Glenn Beck is not the government he can bring it up as much as he wants, and I'm sure he will understand if you feel the need to change the channel. I feel he can get a little out of hand with it myself, but he has convictions and opinions and is provided the stage with which to voice them. Honestly, I don't see why you are not on his side anyway, since he is ranting about the administration's potential involvement in a faith based movement. So wouldn't you technically be in agreement with him?


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

cyd said:


> There are only two difference in the republican and democratic parties. Both are going to take your money and redistribute the wealth. The democrats are going to tax the working man and give it to the poor and the republicans are going to give tax breaks to the rich. The second difference is when the democrats see the working man down and out they offer him a hand to help him up. When the republicans see the working man down and out they say "kick him and make him want to get up". In either case, whichever party is in power is going to bend the working man over and make him squeal like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance".


How exactly does a tax break to "the rich" take money from the working man?

You stated that "...when the democrats see the working man down and out they offer him a hand to help him up..." . Then why, after 40 years of welfare programs, do we still have poverty?


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## wahoo33 (Aug 22, 2008)

40 years of welfare pretty much says it ain't working! More like just enabling for a lot of recipients. There has been poverty since BC and always will be. Not saying we shouldn't help our brother out......but taxing me and giving it to lazy as> sorry folks don't cut it!!


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## Burnt Drag (Jun 3, 2008)

wahoo33 said:


> 40 years of welfare pretty much says it ain't working! More like just enabling for a lot of recipients. There has been poverty since BC and always will be. Not saying we shouldn't help our brother out......but taxing me and giving it to lazy as> sorry folks don't cut it!!


I agree 100%. As for other observations, Republicans and Democrats are so much alike now that I no longer count myself as a Republican. Although GWB was an idiot, he did'nt do crazy things like telling Israel that they could no longer land their aircraft in Turkey for re-fueling and so many other pro-islamic agenda driven policies. Never before has a "leader" been so openly anti-American. We as a nation were hood-winked into this notion of "hope and change" that few votors had any idea of the "real" agenda. This whole adminstration has been an abomination to the ideals of the founding fathers. There was not a lot wrong with our nation. But now, the left seems ready, willing, and able to reward the shiftless souls of our country and even make them proud of being government dependants. It is going to take a concerted effort on the part of good citizens to take back the nation and expell these derelict and destructive "ideals" once and for all. Like the Pledge says, Liberty and Justice for ALL. Paying people other people's money to sit on the porch is not JUSTICE.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

Welfare goes back waaaay further than 40 years. Welfare needs to stop and in a big way. We should do everything we can to help someone that CANNOT help themselves, having 8 kids does not mean you CANNOT help yourself. My grandparents had that many kids and they both worked. Kids are not a handicap. Remove tax breaks from corporations and then at the same time remove the taxes from everyone. Stop giving out loans to kids to go to college. If you want to go to college get a job and go. Getting a degree is not an investment. It's a gamble. A degree does not ensure an awesome wage. There are thousands of things that the government hands out money for that the states should be taking care of. National Parks comes to mind. The list goes on and on.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

WW2 said:


> Welfare goes back waaaay further than 40 years. Welfare needs to stop and in a big way. We should do everything we can to help someone that CANNOT help themselves, having 8 kids does not mean you CANNOT help yourself. My grandparents had that many kids and they both worked. Kids are not a handicap. Remove tax breaks from corporations and then at the same time remove the taxes from everyone. Stop giving out loans to kids to go to college. If you want to go to college get a job and go. Getting a degree is not an investment. It's a gamble. A degree does not ensure an awesome wage. There are thousands of things that the government hands out money for that the states should be taking care of. National Parks comes to mind. The list goes on and on.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

P.S. In actuality, it goes back to FDR, our "great" progressive president, but I did not want to delve into ancient history.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> Welfare goes back waaaay further than 40 years. Welfare needs to stop and in a big way. We should do everything we can to help someone that CANNOT help themselves, having 8 kids does not mean you CANNOT help yourself. My grandparents had that many kids and they both worked. Kids are not a handicap. Remove tax breaks from corporations and then at the same time remove the taxes from everyone. Stop giving out loans to kids to go to college. If you want to go to college get a job and go. Getting a degree is not an investment. It's a gamble. A degree does not ensure an awesome wage. There are thousands of things that the government hands out money for that the states should be taking care of. National Parks comes to mind. The list goes on and on.


What is the problem with gov't based student loans? You borrow money to go and you repay them with interest, seems like a win/win. The only way out of them is through death - you cant BK on student loans. Grants are a different story, if you work your tail off and get grade based grants then you deserve them. But i agree essentially, college is a privledge not a right. 

Leaving National Parks up to the states is ludicrous. These are America's treasures. If the NP's were left up to the states many of the California parks would have already been sold off by Swarz to save the financial clusterfck. How parks spend their money is a different story. Im tired of seeing concrete pathways, handrails, concessions, etc in our national parks. In my opinion if you cant enjoy these places as they are then dont go. Maintenance is by far the biggest budget crunch of the NPS.

But these are really irrelevant in the bigger picture. These "welfare" programs that you are referring to are a drop in the bucket compared to the untold spent on corporate tax breaks and defense spending/foregin aid.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

wirebiter said:


> I just wish I had half the vacation time that SOB has. Is there a month since he has been in office that he hasn't been on vacation?


dont we all. still a drop in the bucket compared to Bush II, Clinton, Bush I.


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## parrothead (Oct 1, 2007)

Just like Jim Rome says,,,,,," I take so much vacation because i get so much vacation" Always thought that statement was funny. Just my .02 worth

Scott


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## Sushi maker (Jun 3, 2010)

One more nail in the coffin. What good is going to come of this? Look honey daddy pluged the hole ya right! Does anyone think that some family is going to say oh lets go to the same place as Onoma. Everywhere he goes will have to be a ghost town cause hes soooo loved by all. I say let him go home for his aaaahh 3rd or 4th vacation this year. Hmmm well where is Obamas true north AKA home


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## Nitzey (Oct 9, 2007)

I think I will send him an email and invite him to go fishing with me. Fishing is good actually.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> What is the problem with gov't based student loans? You borrow money to go and you repay them with interest, seems like a win/win. The only way out of them is through death - you cant BK on student loans. Grants are a different story, if you work your tail off and get grade based grants then you deserve them. But i agree essentially, college is a privledge not a right.
> 
> Leaving National Parks up to the states is ludicrous. These are America's treasures. If the NP's were left up to the states many of the California parks would have already been sold off by Swarz to save the financial clusterfck. How parks spend their money is a different story. Im tired of seeing concrete pathways, handrails, concessions, etc in our national parks. In my opinion if you cant enjoy these places as they are then dont go. Maintenance is by far the biggest budget crunch of the NPS.
> 
> But these are really irrelevant in the bigger picture. These "welfare" programs that you are referring to are a drop in the bucket compared to the untold spent on corporate tax breaks and defense spending/foregin aid.



These are just a few examples.

If you want a student loan you could go to, oh I don't know...a bank? Or you could say work a job and go to school at the same time. Or you could join the military and serve your country and then take classes. If the government gave that interest back to be from the tax money I sent in then it would be Win/Win. Instead it is lose/win/win. I lose and the government and the student both win.

Just because you get good grades in school does not mean you should get my tax money in the form of a grant. If you get bad grades but are bad ass at fixing cars do you deserve a grant to become a mechanic? If you get good grades then you should have no problem getting a job to earn the money to go to school. 

Maybe California doesn't need as many parks as it has and parks are what you have when you can afford them. You can have a national park without dumping a crap ton of money on them for facilities. I am pretty sure the grand canyon will be just as grand without air conditioned buildings all around it.

Your argument against corporate tax cuts don't make sense. You argue that if you get good grades through hard work you deserve a grant but then turn around and say that a company does not deserve to keep the money it has earned through good business practices. So, you deserve tax money for learning but do not deserve to keep the money you have earned from hard work?

I would rather a company pay NO taxes. The company should bear ALL expenses of doing business. If they cannot then they should go by the wayside. 


Now, I would argue that companies should be forced to pay a fair wage and that the lowest paid employees salary should be based on a percentage of the highest paid employee. I do not think that a CEO should be able to reap millions upon millions of dollars in salary and benefits because they managed to screw all of the employees keeping them in business. So, say at least 10% of the CEO salary is the starting salary of the lowest employee. This would include bonuses. The nonsense going on in corporations nowadays is disgusting and there should be a correction of some sort. Now, I have not worked through the numbers specifically and just tossed the 10% out there, but the theory is valid.


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## neuby (May 8, 2009)

arthurpete said:


> These "welfare" programs that you are referring to are a drop in the bucket compared to the untold spent on corporate tax breaks and defense spending/foregin aid.


How do you spend money on a corporate 'tax break'? Defense spending was the only large monetary responsbility the founding fathers intended.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

neuby said:


> How do you spend money on a corporate 'tax break'? Defense spending was the only large monetary responsbility the founding fathers intended.


 
your right, you cant spend money on tax breaks, i didnt phrase that right. But essentially you know what i mean. It is money taken out of the fed budget. Look im all for fair corporate taxes but certain tax breaks are ludicrous.

I dont think the founding fathers intended for the US to be the worlds police force or to start wars in countries thousands of miles away based upon scant intelligence.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> your right, you cant spend money on tax breaks, i didnt phrase that right. But essentially you know what i mean. It is money taken out of the fed budget. Look im all for fair corporate taxes but certain tax breaks are ludicrous.
> 
> I dont think the founding fathers intended for the US to be the worlds police force or to start wars in countries thousands of miles away based upon scant intelligence.



See my post about Ron Paul and the questions you will never hear asked about the Iraq war....


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> These are just a few examples.
> 
> If you want a student loan you could go to, oh I don't know...a bank? Or you could say work a job and go to school at the same time. Or you could join the military and serve your country and then take classes. If the government gave that interest back to be from the tax money I sent in then it would be Win/Win. Instead it is lose/win/win. I lose and the government and the student both win.
> 
> ...


had to split this up


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> Maybe California doesn't need as many parks as it has and parks are what you have when you can afford them. You can have a national park without dumping a crap ton of money on them for facilities. I am pretty sure the grand canyon will be just as grand without air conditioned buildings all around it.
> 
> *I dont see where we disagree on this, except the whole afford thing. National Parks were set up for the greater good. But given that you are concerned with a few cents out of you paycheck going to well disciplined highschoolers to attain higher education then the idea of "the greater good" is probably lost on you.*
> 
> ...


point me in the direction of your Paul quote, same thread?


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

If their work ethic is so great then they should have no problem getting a job. If their work ethic is so great they should be able to get a job AND go to school. It will just take a little longer. Who said it should be cheap or easy to get a degree? Who said it should be fast?
Why should I have to put money into the system so that money is there to loan them? I am pretty sure I have a savings account that does the same thing. Fact is this, the government should not be in the business of giving loans to people for education. If I got to keep more of my tax money then I could afford to put more into my account for MY child to go to school. 

Just like in buying a house, if you can't afford it don't buy it. If you can't afford to go to college then get a job and work until you can afford it. 

The GI bill also pays for more than just tuition and he would likely chew through that much faster than 3 years. Also, you can join the military and take those classes while you are in. They make LOTS of exceptions so that you can accomplish it at the same time. 


I know a lot of people with their college degrees that have never actually had a job where the degree was of use. There are lots of people with degrees that are bitching and crying because they can't find that nice cush job everyone told them they should get once they graduate. 

The military gives the ASVAB that is used to judge mechanical aptitude and obviously you have not looked into the cost of going to school to become a mechanic.

I also know a lot of mechanics and laborers that work circles around guys with an education. Work ethic does not only belong to those that get good grades. I also know a lot of college kids that learn as many little tricks as they can so that they can skip classes, not write their own papers so on and so forth. Hell, ever heard of cramming for an exam? That is the essence of bad work ethic and it is a college staple. The work ethic argument is absolute nonsense.

IMO if you get good grades and you have a good work ethic you should not need help to get your education.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

arthurpete said:


> ... It is money taken out of the fed budget. Look im all for fair corporate taxes but certain tax breaks are ludicrous....


You sound as if this money is owed to the government. The government uses every cent it receives in taxes and more. Not only does government grow annually but it also wastes untold billions of dollars in pork barrel projects. Take a look at the budget and most bills passed by Congress and you'll see what I mean. Why do you think the economy is in the tank? If you ran your finances like the government does, you would be bankrupt.

Businesses use profits to expand, i.e. new construction and jobs. Tax increases not only stiffle new growth and jobs, they are also passed directly on to us as increases in the cost of services/products. Also, why do you think states with high corporate taxes are losing jobs? Why are corporations moving overseas? 

The U.S. combined corporate tax (39.27%) is only behind Japan's (39.54%) among countries that are members of the *O*rganisation for *E*conomic *C*o-operation and *D*evelopment, an organization of thirty (30) countries that accept the principles of representative democracy and free-market economy in corporate taxes. It is worthy to note that 24 U.S. states have combined corporate taxe higher than Japan's (December 27, 2008 figures). See link below:

US Corporate Tax Rates vs. All OECD Countries | ChrisBanescu.com 

Finally, exactly which tax breaks do you consider "ludicrous"?


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> point me in the direction of your Paul quote, same thread?



http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f62/ron-paul-71893/


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> point me in the direction of your Paul quote, same thread?



And a note on the socialism for pay scale....

A company is a team effort and the guy leading the team certainly deserves more than the guy sweeping the floor. I just think that companies owe more to those that are helping them achieve their goals. I am not limiting the CEO's pay, I am just demanding that he take those helping him get where he is with him. It does not keep a company from firing those that perform poorly. Socialism would be forcing them to keep everyone they hire and pay them all the same. Keep in mind that most successful companies already have a scale like this in place. It's just that there is a disconnect at the very top where the sky is the limit.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> If their work ethic is so great then they should have no problem getting a job. If their work ethic is so great they should be able to get a job AND go to school. It will just take a little longer. Who said it should be cheap or easy to get a degree? Who said it should be fast?
> Why should I have to put money into the system so that money is there to loan them? I am pretty sure I have a savings account that does the same thing. Fact is this, the government should not be in the business of giving loans to people for education. If I got to keep more of my tax money then I could afford to put more into my account for MY child to go to school.
> 
> Just like in buying a house, if you can't afford it don't buy it. If you can't afford to go to college then get a job and work until you can afford it.
> ...


Your support for your argument here is mostly based on the exceptions rather than the rule. There are exceptions to everything. I know people in the mechanical field that work circles around people i know with degrees as well. That doesn’t mean that it is status quo. 

Overall you seem pretty detached from the realities of today as a young adult. Putting yourself (ie without mommy and daddy) through college and supporting yourself at the same time directly out of high school is damn near impossible. This ideology that as long as you have a good work ethic you can do it is pretty irrational. Yes it can be done but you need a lot of help along the way. 

Times have changed. I don’t want to assume your age here but college is expensive these days. I went to South Alabama 10 years ago. Tuition was $120/hr, a BS required 138 hrs = 16,500k plus dorm and books = 4k/yr = 16k. Grand total over 32k for a 4 yr degree from a state college. That was 10 years ago, its now 162$/hr. 

Bottom-line, without loans it would be impossible to save 8k a year, work full time and support myself with a job directly out of high school. I know some kids have parents or friends of the family that set them up with great jobs right out of high school but that’s once again the exception. 

Also 95% of people i associated with in college did their work and if they needed help they sought out classmates, tutors, or teachers. Your assumption that a lot of college kids seek out tricks to get by in college is another leap of faith to support your claim. College weeds these people out for the most part. are there those that skate through college without putting in the work? yeah probably but the number is minimal and certainly not enough to repudiate those that end up with a degree didn’t do so through hard work and perseverance. 

I understand you may have a gripe with how your tax dollars are spent but trust me there are more important things to harp on than helping kids through college. Im sorry you cant see the benefit in higher education for those other than the wealthy or elite.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> And a note on the socialism for pay scale....
> 
> A company is a team effort and the guy leading the team certainly deserves more than the guy sweeping the floor. I just think that companies owe more to those that are helping them achieve their goals. I am not limiting the CEO's pay, I am just demanding that he take those helping him get where he is with him. It does not keep a company from firing those that perform poorly. Socialism would be forcing them to keep everyone they hire and pay them all the same. Keep in mind that most successful companies already have a scale like this in place. It's just that there is a disconnect at the very top where the sky is the limit.


thats why i said bordeline. but essentially i agree with you here. your stance here is that those helping them achieve their goals should get thier fare share - i agree. I would take it a step further and say its only fair that if a corporation is going to exploit america's resources (human or natural) and infrastructure for profit that they should have to give something back in the form of taxes. in essence i wholeheartedly agree in corporate taxes.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

Orion45 said:


> You sound as if this money is owed to the government. The government uses every cent it receives in taxes and more. Not only does government grow annually but it also wastes untold billions of dollars in pork barrel projects. Take a look at the budget and most bills passed by Congress and you'll see what I mean. Why do you think the economy is in the tank? If you ran your finances like the government does, you would be bankrupt.
> 
> *You are assuming that Im not in agreement with you in that their is ample room for the government to retract and a reduction in spending. *
> 
> ...


Here are a few from the Citizens for Tax Justice………………….. CTJ - Citizens For Tax Justice

*Microsoft* enjoyed more than $12 billion in total tax breaks over the past five years. In fact, Microsoft actually paid no tax at all in 1999, despite $12.3 billion in reported U.S. profits. Microsoft’s tax rate for the past two years was only 1.8 percent on $21.9 billion in pretax U.S. profits.

*General Electric*, America’s most profitable corporation, reported $50.8 billion in U.S. profits over the past five years, but paid only 11.5 percent of that in federal income taxes. That low tax rate reflected almost $12 billion in corporate tax welfare for GE.

*Ford* enjoyed $9.1 billion in corporate tax welfare over the past five years. It reported $18.6 billion in U.S. profits over the past two years, but paid a tax rate of only 5.7 percent.

*Worldcom* paid no taxes at all in two of the last three years, despite reported U.S. profits of $15.2 billion. Worldcom’s total tax rate over the three years was only 1.6%. Corporate tax welfare slashed Worldcom’s tax bill by $5.3 billion over the past five years.

*IBM* reported $5.7 billion in U.S. profits in 2000, but paid only 3.4 percent of that in federal income taxes. In 1997, IBM reported $3.1 billion in U.S. profits, and instead of paying taxes, got an outright tax rebate. Over the past five years, IBM enjoyed a total of $4.7 billion in corporate tax welfare.

*General Motors* paid no taxes at all in three of the last five years, despite $12.5 billion in reported U.S. profits. GM’s tax rate for the past three years was _negative_ 1.3 percent. Its corporate tax welfare totaled $3.6 billion over the past five years.
*Enron* paid no income taxes at all in four of the past five years, despite $1.8 billion in reported U.S. profits. Enron’s total taxes over the five years were a negative $381 million. Its corporate tax welfare totaled $1.0 billion.

*El Paso Energy* reported $1.6 billion in U.S. profits over the past five years, but paid less than nothing in federal income taxes, getting tax _rebates_ of $254 million. El Paso’s tax rate over the five years was _negative_ 15.5 percent. Its corporate welfare totaled $827 million.

*Colgate-Palmolive* paid no taxes at all in three of the past five years, despite $1.6 billion in reported U.S. profits. Colgate’s total tax rate over the five years was _negative_ 1.3 percent, due to $595 million in corporate tax welfare.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> Your support for your argument here is mostly based on the exceptions rather than the rule. There are exceptions to everything. I know people in the mechanical field that work circles around people i know with degrees as well. That doesn’t mean that it is status quo.
> 
> Overall you seem pretty detached from the realities of today as a young adult. Putting yourself (ie without mommy and daddy) through college and supporting yourself at the same time directly out of high school is damn near impossible. This ideology that as long as you have a good work ethic you can do it is pretty irrational. Yes it can be done but you need a lot of help along the way.
> 
> ...


Your math assumes that a person is trying to go to school at the same rate of speed as someone with a school loan. A student doesn't need to take a full schedule of classes to get a degree. They can take fewer classes/year and make it more affordable. You can also go to much cheaper schools for the first 2 years. Parlay that education into a better job, then with the extra money advance your education, meanwhile gaining valuable work experience.

Or an even better idea is for the college to loan them the money or postpone the payments for the student. Many companies are extending credit to their customers. Colleges should be able to do the same. It is a business. 

I can see the benefit in higher education and it is not for the wealthy and elite. But, it is not necessary to have it RIGHT NOW. So, it is not impossible to save up and work for it.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> Here are a few from the Citizens for Tax Justice………………….. CTJ - Citizens For Tax Justice
> 
> *Microsoft* enjoyed more than $12 billion in total tax breaks over the past five years. In fact, Microsoft actually paid no tax at all in 1999, despite $12.3 billion in reported U.S. profits. Microsoft’s tax rate for the past two years was only 1.8 percent on $21.9 billion in pretax U.S. profits.
> 
> ...



If you stop taking taxes you can remove tax breaks. Taxes and Tax breaks have become political tools. In the end the government ends up bailing out companies. I think you are misunderstanding my position about not paying corporate taxes. Don't take anything from them and don't give anything to them. If they fail then it is because they are poorly run or the industry can no longer support them. By letting them escape taxes and so on you are removing that excuse/crutch and they will either fail or succeed based on their own merit/skill. That is the way it should be. 

Now, that is not to say that companies should escape any and all costs associated with their industry. I have said it before in reference to regulations. I am all about removing the restrictions on industries until such times as they show they are incapable of being responsible stewards. If a company is found to have abused something then they should in turn be 100% responsible for correcting it. If they cannot afford it then they go by the wayside and so on.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> Your math assumes that a person is trying to go to school at the same rate of speed as someone with a school loan. A student doesn't need to take a full schedule of classes to get a degree. They can take fewer classes/year and make it more affordable. You can also go to much cheaper schools for the first 2 years. Parlay that education into a better job, then with the extra money advance your education, meanwhile gaining valuable work experience.
> 
> *very hard to parlay 2 years of basic classes into a better job unless it is a specific 2 year program. I agree though, you dont have to get a college degree in the standard 4 years. This works well for people who are trying to go back to school or who have a family and must work full time. It doesnt translate too well for the highschool grad who is looking at 10-15 years to work and save for a college education. *
> 
> ...


like as in right now in this economy or like RIGHT NOW dammit!


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

WW2 said:


> If you stop taking taxes you can remove tax breaks. Taxes and Tax breaks have become political tools. In the end the government ends up bailing out companies. I think you are misunderstanding my position about not paying corporate taxes. Don't take anything from them and don't give anything to them. If they fail then it is because they are poorly run or the industry can no longer support them. By letting them escape taxes and so on you are removing that excuse/crutch and they will either fail or succeed based on their own merit/skill. That is the way it should be.
> 
> Now, that is not to say that companies should escape any and all costs associated with their industry. I have said it before in reference to regulations. I am all about removing the restrictions on industries until such times as they show they are incapable of being responsible stewards. If a company is found to have abused something then they should in turn be 100% responsible for correcting it. If they cannot afford it then they go by the wayside and so on.


that was a reply to Orion. I didnt assume anything on your part. 

I believe i understand your position on corp taxes, i just disagree with it. 

Essentially if a corporation is going to exploit america's resources (human or natural) and infrastructure for profit that they should have to give something back in the form of taxes. in essence i wholeheartedly agree in corporate taxes. 

And I certaintly disagree with removing regualtions and restrictions. Capitalism while in its essence is the best system to date it however can be a breeding ground for corruption and glutony. Take for example BP and the MMS. MMS slaps on the wrist were not enough of a detterent for BP to shapen up. They racked up 700+ violations while the other big 4 oil companies together racked up less than a dozen in that same time frame.


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

As in RIGHT NOW dammit! lol

I am not saying it is easy but it can certainly be done. This again I think attributes to the I need it now, and I deserve it mentalities.

The argument for student loans can be made for just about every aspect of life.

I am also not for state colleges. This again is an area that the government should not be involved in.


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## Diesel (Jan 9, 2008)

Corporations don't pay taxes, period, everything is passed on to the consumer.


And as for capitalism being a breeding ground for greed and gluttony, you are now getting into the concept of the human condition, and as far as that goes sloth has a much higher cost. Capitalism has created the most wealth for the most people than any other system. You seriously think the Soviet Union did not have, your haves and have nots?


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## snakeawave (Oct 1, 2007)

WW2 said:


> As in RIGHT NOW dammit! lol
> 
> I am not saying it is easy but it can certainly be done. This again I think attributes to the I need it now, and I deserve it mentalities.
> 
> ...


 
My wife and I both finished college without any assistance working two jobs and taking just one or two classes to start. It wasn't easy but we did it. Anyone can, you just have to want to succeed and not be lazy ,Just crying for a handout will never get you anywhere because everytime you go through something tough you will expect that bailout again and again. College is expensive and we now have two children I have set up college funds for both of them, but they have to earn that money. Knowing I did it on my own helps me appreciate it more.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

*Arthurpete*,

Allow me to backpedal on this issue a bit.

First of all, it seems we are both in agreement that government needs to be severely scaled back. If, as you say, "...*w*_*e are under some of the lowest federal taxes as a % since Truman"* is correct, then the reason we're not in* "a period of unsurpassed growth...*_*" *must be directly attributed to the excessive overspending by the federal government*.*

The WSJ article you have quoted, is indeed an eye-opener and a powerful indictment of the present tax code. For example, part of the article states that *"...tax experts for decades have bemoaned the tax code's bias toward debt over equity: Interest on most corporate debt is tax deductible, while dividend payments are not.*

*The disparity between debt and equity financing encourages corporations to finance themselves more heavily through borrowing. This leverage in turn increases the financial fragility of the economy, an effect we are seeing quite dramatically today," Jason Furman, now deputy director of Mr. Obama's National Economic Council, told a congressional panel last year.*

*But ending the bias toward debt would have winners and losers, and would set off a major battle in Congress, said Kenneth Kies, a former Republican congressional tax staffer and now a tax lobbyist at the Federal Policy Group.*

*The biggest losers would be large corporate borrowers with financial arms. **General Electric** Co., **Citigroup** Inc. and **Bank of America** Corp. are among the top U.S. issuers over the past decade, according to Thomson Reuters. The companies declined to comment.*

*The burden would also fall on some of the largest nonfinancial debt issuers, such as **Verizon Communications** Inc., **Wal-Mart Stores **Inc. and **International Business Machines **Corp.*

*Silicon Valley high-tech companies -- typically not highly indebted -- would be among the winners."*

This clearly demonstrates the need to level the playing field among corporations. You cited that *"Microsoft enjoyed more than $12 billion in total tax breaks over the past five years. In fact, Microsoft actually paid no tax at all in 1999, despite $12.3 billion in reported U.S. profits. Microsoft’s tax rate for the past two years was only 1.8 percent on $21.9 billion in pretax U.S. profits." *This because Microsoft was able to deduct taxable employee income from its own taxable corporate income by using the "stock option income tax benefit" to the tune of a $3.1 billion dollars tax free cash in 1999. Yes, although excessive, this is still a legal tax break under the preent tax code. 

It appears that the quickest way out of this quagmire is fairly simple, by means of a revision of the tax code and reduction in the size of the federal government. Without getting into the fair-tax debate, a simple recipe of 1) reducing corporate/individual tax rates, 2) elimininating tax loopholes, and 3) reducing the size of government would bring us back "on course" towards recovery. Then issues such as, minimum wage, labor unions, congressional term limits, etc. could be addressesd. :whistling:


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

I invite all of you to review the progression of this thread. It started as a post concerning Obama vacationing in Florida. Speaking of "derailing a thread"....


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

arthurpete said:


> that was a reply to Orion. I didnt assume anything on your part.
> 
> I believe i understand your position on corp taxes, i just disagree with it.
> 
> ...


Right, well, some would argue(me at least) that the bloated government are the reason that the punishments are only slaps on the wrist. See, if I am writing that law then I am going to let you operate freely. When you start to cause issues and not clean them up and again be a good steward for the environment, the community and for those that work for you, then I am going to come down on you like a hammer.


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## loub1 (Jan 8, 2009)

Sushi maker said:


> One more nail in the coffin. What good is going to come of this? Look honey daddy pluged the hole ya right! Does anyone think that some family is going to say oh lets go to the same place as Onoma. Everywhere he goes will have to be a ghost town cause hes soooo loved by all. I say let him go home for his aaaahh 3rd or 4th vacation this year. Hmmm well where is Obamas true north AKA home


I too think that we all need to Hmmmmmm, because this aka home is still being persued in court, but you will not hear a darn thing from the dems or repbs about the approx $950,000.00 tax payers $ being used to fight the suite to force the mr Sadam Hussen Obama provide his birth certificate and the source for his college finances (by who or from where). I don't and cannot call him president of our USA until this matter is closed. Not one of our elected will go up against the Chicago style obama regm.


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## jim t (Sep 30, 2007)

loub1,

How do you explain that the State of Hawaii is satisfied and normally provides a "Certification of Birth"?

How do you explain that the RNC is not doubting his birth certificate?

How do you reconcile the 2 birth announcements in both local Honolulu newspapers?

Were Mom and Dad, or the NWO planning this since his birth? 

Birthers are ignoring facts because they have not seen the original "Birth Certificate".

I was born in Glen Falls, NY in 1957. I assume I cannot get the original. I assume it was transfered to microfiche YEARS ago. Then a few years ago it was put on disc.

If I asked for it today, I'd get a "certification of birth" with a state stamp on it.

Heck, McCain ADMITS he was not born in the US. He was born on a military installation in Panama. "or was he?" Let's say there was a complication and they took him off base to a bigger, more capable hospital... Hmmmm

See my point? Hawaii is okay with it, the RNC is okay by it, 2 local newspapers reported the birth...

Jim


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## K-Bill (May 14, 2009)

i'm surprised you dignified that jim t. this was a non-issue even when it was an issue.


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## neuby (May 8, 2009)

arthurpete said:


> that was a reply to Orion. I didnt assume anything on your part.
> 
> I believe i understand your position on corp taxes, i just disagree with it.
> 
> Essentially if a corporation is going to exploit america's resources (human or natural) and infrastructure for profit that they should have to give something back in the form of taxes. in essence i wholeheartedly agree in corporate taxes.


Corporate Tax Breaks Get Scrutiny - WSJ.com









I think this graph sums it up- we are going about the wrong way folks. Look at Germany, arguably one of the most successful economy the past 15 years and now the largest in Europe has the lowest corporate tax rate. They continue to keep corprate tax rates down (below 30% compared to US avg 39.3%) keeping German goods less expensive to export and making it favorable for German companies to stay in Germany and do business. This keeps jobs in Germany, keeps unemployment down, and ultimately increases GDP and overall tax receipts. 

And as far as the 'exploiting resources argument", Japan and Germany have virtually no resources of their own- they import raw materials and export finished products and services, and still somehow make money. What raw materials does Microsoft exploit?


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

snakeawave said:


> My wife and I both finished college without any assistance working two jobs and taking just one or two classes to start. It wasn't easy but we did it. Anyone can, you just have to want to succeed and not be lazy ,Just crying for a handout will never get you anywhere because everytime you go through something tough you will expect that bailout again and again. College is expensive and we now have two children I have set up college funds for both of them, but they have to earn that money. Knowing I did it on my own helps me appreciate it more.


Thats impressive, it was hard no doubt. Id be curious to hear more of the circumstances. 

Another curiousity, are you insinuating that college loans or any loans for that matter are a reflection of laziness and lack of drive?


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

Diesel said:


> Corporations don't pay taxes, period, everything is passed on to the consumer.
> 
> 
> And as for capitalism being a breeding ground for greed and gluttony, you are now getting into the concept of the human condition, and as far as that goes sloth has a much higher cost. Capitalism has created the most wealth for the most people than any other system. *You seriously think the Soviet Union did not have, your haves and have nots*?


Did i say that?

I believe i said that capitalism while its the best system to date has its own set of issues.


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## arthurpete (Oct 10, 2007)

Orion45 said:


> *Arthurpete*,
> 
> Allow me to backpedal on this issue a bit.
> 
> ...


I agree with the 2 and 3 but any reduction in overall taxes corporate or individual right now would be disasterous towards recovery, it would bankrupt the gov. Besides we are in a period of very low individual tax rates, that is relative to decades past.


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## Orion45 (Jun 26, 2008)

arthurpete said:


> I agree with the 2 and 3 but any reduction in overall taxes corporate or individual right now would be disasterous towards recovery, it would bankrupt the gov. Besides we are in a period of very low individual tax rates, that is relatively to decades past.


Reducing corporate taxes, eliminating tax loopholes, and keeping the Bush tax cuts would not be disastrous. Of course, this would also require reducing the size of government....highly unlikely with the current politicians in power.


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## TURTLE (May 22, 2008)

jim t said:


> loub1,
> 
> How do you explain that the State of Hawaii is satisfied and normally provides a "Certification of Birth"?
> 
> ...


*I have to say something about the birth certificate thing.My Mother went to renew her drivers license and was required to provide her birth certificate.All she had was a certified copy of it and they would not accept it and did not give her her license.They explained to my parents that it was a federal law and she would not be able to get it in any state. My Father then replied by saying " So if Obama was to present to you his certified copy of his birth certificate he could not get his license? " And they told him " Not in Florida" I know it matters not to him anymore , but what will he do if he ever goes to renew his license and only has the birth cert that has been provided to the people of the US ?*


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## WW2 (Sep 28, 2007)

TURTLE said:


> *I have to say something about the birth certificate thing.My Mother went to renew her drivers license and was required to provide her birth certificate.All she had was a certified copy of it and they would not accept it and did not give her her license.They explained to my parents that it was a federal law and she would not be able to get it in any state. My Father then replied by saying " So if Obama was to present to you his certified copy of his birth certificate he could not get his license? " And they told him " Not in Florida" I know it matters not to him anymore , but what will he do if he ever goes to renew his license and only has the birth cert that has been provided to the people of the US ?*


They lied to her then....

Florida Drivers License Identification Requirements

Says right in there in black and white that a certified copy of the birth certificate is all that is needed.


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## K-Bill (May 14, 2009)

duya-dubya is right. the guy told your folks wrong. not for a duplicate, but if your license is expired and you go to renew it, it's a pain now. but certified copies are good. it's unrealistic to expect that every person have the original. stuff happens.


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