# Snapper season shortened



## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

<P class=BodyCenterBold>FWC acts to rebuild Gulf red snapper stocks<P class=Body>June 18, 2009
Contact: Lee Schlesinger, 850-487-0554<P class=Body>The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) on Thursday voted to adjust the recreational harvest season for red snapper in Gulf of Mexico state waters to account for over-harvests in 2008. The Commission took this action after receiving support from several fishing groups and conservation organizations at its public hearing in Crystal River. <P class=Body>The National Marine Fisheries Service has estimated that recreational fishers in the Gulf exceeded last year's annual red snapper catch limit by about 1.2 million pounds. A federal law requires that harvest levels must be reduced in the year following a previous year's overharvest. <P class=Body>Consequently, the NMFS shortened the recreational red snapper harvest season in Gulf federal waters (beyond nine nautical miles from shore) from June 1 through Sept. 30 to *June 1 through Aug. 14*. The FWC has now approved the same season change for state waters. <P class=Body>"Shortening the fishing season will reduce the harvest of Gulf red snapper in the short term and help rebuild the fishery's population so that anglers can enjoy better red snapper fishing in the future," said FWC Chairman Rodney Barreto.


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

Thats GREAT!!!!!

But we can blow up snapper at oil rigs. Where is the dynamite??????:takephoto


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## reelnutz (Feb 16, 2008)

Thats just great my boat is in the shop (powerhead!) Ill be lucky to even get out at this rate.With my luck they will make it even shorter next week !!:hoppingmad:banghead


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## floater1 (Oct 31, 2007)

wtf snapper season shortened they must not fish in the same gulf i do, them aggrevating sons of a bitches are everywhere and eat everything in sight. i can see it coming that you will only be able to fish every other tuesday or some bullshit like that


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## reelhappy (Oct 31, 2007)

well football season is just 2 months away. and if she is playing for the raiders i am switching teams!!!!!!!!!


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

I think it will be every other tuesday, and only every other leap year, and only under a lunar eclipse. Unless of course you are a commercial fishermen, then you can go today, tomorrow, and all the days after that....


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## feelin' wright (Oct 7, 2007)

I think everyone seen this coming. Just wait, it will not be long and they will have a complete moratorium on all reef species in the gulf. This is basicly people control in the name of conservation.


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## Semi-Retired (May 9, 2009)

Anyone know who the "special fishing groups and conservation organizations" are that came to the conclusion recreational fishermen are the problem? How does this effect the charter and commercial fishing?


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## angus_cow_doctor (Apr 13, 2009)

commercial guys get 12 months to catch their quota.

All I know to say is that I may be having grilled snapper on board my vessel in the near future....


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## Semi-Retired (May 9, 2009)

Just how could the "recreational" fisherman be the problem with overfishing in 2008 when the gas prices were so high????

I only got out a couple times a month and when I did, I didn't see that many boats out there. It's going to get harder to justify purchasing a saltwater fishing license just so you can go out and feed flipper.:banghead


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## RMS (Dec 9, 2008)

Eventually, the americans nationwide that fish, along with the recreational fishing tackleand boating industries need to form a national NRA-like organization to fight the B.S. The problem is thata huge portionof the millions of fishing enthusiasts live and fish freshwater which is almost completely state regulated, and accordingly, common sense regulation mostly still prevails. So for the most part, the freshwater masses don't see the problems that we see and wouldn't be as motivated to fight the B.S.


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## Quicdraw (Oct 3, 2007)

the first problem was we let them split us up, if all the comercial, charter,and recreational were still one force, that would be ONE loud voice insted we are 3 voices that are quietedeasier. thats just my thoughts


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## reelhappy (Oct 31, 2007)

a lot of us saw this coming a long time ago! they have a plan ( the gov. ) and the last three years they slowly got what they wanted. to comply with the mag. stevens act. now we will have to wait untill they feel that the fishery has recovered before they will open it back up. so in the mean time. you can still catch some of the other fishies out there! they taste just as good when you put them into the grease! i always try to put as many different fish as i can in my box before going back to the dock. red snapper is good but it is not the only fishy in the sea! 

scot


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## spearfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

Well gentlemen...:banghead is all I have to say. We all saw this one coming. It's time we started telling out elected officials what we think of bullshit like this with our votes. If there is one thing that I have learned its that elected officials don't know jack about marine resources, but they do know that they don't want to be on the unemployment line. I say from County, to State, to Federal we start picking candidates that will support our marine resources by making sound decisions. We let them know in no uncertain terms that from this moment forward we will not stand for this, and we will vote anyone out of office that doesn't adopt a marine resources improvement platform:

1. Protect our right to fish for species that are in abundance.

2. Perform a true assessment of fish stocks so that we know which species are truly in danger. Not this horseshit that NMFS calls a stock assessment.

3. Protect everyone's access to the water, not just the huge commercial guys that can buy votes.

4. Protect and streamline our ability to drop reefs. Where there is no structure there will be no fish. Just common sense.

5. Protect our ability to deploy private artificial reefs from a private vesel. They cost the people nothing, and benefit everyone by growing the fishery, and if you happen to find one then you havea nice spot to fish without any taxpayer dollars being spent.

6. Tell agencies like the Army Corp, Beaches and Costal, National Marine Fisheries, FWC, and any other local/state/federal agency that we are tired of them using our tax dollars to prevent us from doing 1-5. 

This is the platform of the next person I will vote for and I plan on letting them know that. Until we unite and vote together we will continue to be divided and conquered. Its time for a revolution.


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## Pinksnappertrapper (Dec 7, 2007)

:withstupid

THIS IS BULLSHIT. CATCH ME IF YOU CAN...F*CK IT..


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## 285exp (Oct 17, 2007)

Sorry, but seeing as how Florida refused to adhere to the Fed guidelines in their state waters last year and ran the season from April 21-Oct 31, it's hard to sympathize. All you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines this year. Last year's chickens have come home to roost.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

> *285exp (6/19/2009)*Sorry, but seeing as how Florida refused to adhere to the Fed guidelines in their state waters last year and ran the season from April 21-Oct 31, it's hard to sympathize. All you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines this year. Last year's chickens have come home to roost.


That would be an acceptable response and I could live with that if they showed me there was a problem with the fishery.

I don't know how the rec sector was 1.whatever million pounds over when the bag was cut in half and federal waters were off limits for most of the season.

Did the fish just magically double in size? Did we all run 10 extra trips with gas at $4 and change? I don't think so.

There are moves in the works by several national organizations to sue the NMFS over theses thigns. The lawsuit calls for a moritorium on season closures and a repeal of the latest bag cuts until they can develop new, scientific methods for data collection. Should be interesting to follow.

That, coupled with the bills running through Congress right now to ease the blind mandates of Magnuson-Stevens should reshape the entire process top to bottom. Unfortunately, Joe Public and a pile of charter boat operators will suffer in the meantime.

Me, I'm going AJ fishing, screw snapper.


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## saltfisher1 (Oct 8, 2007)

It seems that the commercial guy gets the break and the recreational guy gets the shaft again.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

> *saltfisher1 (6/19/2009)*It seems that the commercial guy gets the break and the recreational guy gets the shaft again.


Well, they do have all the money and lobbyists and because there's only a few dozen of them and a few million of us, they can get their message out much more clearly.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

> *285exp (6/19/2009)*Sorry, but seeing as how Florida refused to adhere to the Fed guidelines in their state waters last year and ran the season from April 21-Oct 31, it's hard to sympathize. All you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines this year. Last year's chickens have come home to roost.


Totally clueless and inane comment above. Attitudes like that make positive changes impossible withinthis country.

Mark W


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## 285exp (Oct 17, 2007)

> *markw4321 (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *285exp (6/19/2009)*Sorry, but seeing as how Florida refused to adhere to the Fed guidelines in their state waters last year and ran the season from April 21-Oct 31, it's hard to sympathize. All you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines this year. Last year's chickens have come home to roost.
> ...




Two separate issues. If you want to make a positive change, you actually try to change the regulations that you find unfair, not just ignore them. Once again, all you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines in your state waters this year.


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## fred (Dec 28, 2008)

> *feelin' wright (6/18/2009)* This is basicly people control in the name of conservation.


Dingdingdingding!

Keeeeeerect! Give that man a prize.


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## JoeZ (Sep 30, 2007)

> *285exp (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *markw4321 (6/19/2009)*
> ...




Huh?


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

> *285exp (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *markw4321 (6/19/2009)*
> ...


\

Have been doing allI can to change regulations including contributiong money to recreational fishing rights organizations. If you are not already, recommend you get informed and do so as wellso that your children and grand children have the right tocatch and keep fish offshore.Once recreational bottom fishing is closed the well funded enviromental groups that don't want to see a hookin a fishes mouthand that are lobbying with $$$$$ behind the scenes will turn their attention more to pelagics. 

When they close down the pelagic fisherymaybe then you will startscreaming like a stuck pig and you to will begin toappreciate the fact thatstate agencies are bending toNMFS rulingsbased onpolitics and federal to state funding support and notonsound science thatactually indicates red snapper are truly overfished and in trouble.

Mark W


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## Telum Pisces (Sep 27, 2007)

> *JoeZ (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *285exp (6/19/2009)*
> ...


Huh? Again. That makes no since what so ever. So I guess as a state we are just supposed to roll over and allow the feds to impose their crazy regs on us. :banghead


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

> *RMS (6/18/2009)*Eventually, the americans nationwide that fish, along with the recreational fishing tackleand boating industries need to form a national NRA-like organization to fight the B.S. The problem is thata huge portionof the millions of fishing enthusiasts live and fish freshwater which is almost completely state regulated, and accordingly, common sense regulation mostly still prevails. So for the most part, the freshwater masses don't see the problems that we see and wouldn't be as motivated to fight the B.S.


There are 2 organizations out there now fighting this really hard. Fishing Rights Alliance and Recreational Fishing Alliance. The FRA has filed a lawsuit and RFA has got bills before Congress as you can see below.

That's why we all need to be members of these organizations. Your yearly dues helps pay for this battle and it's not expensive they are 35.00 a year.<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">The Fishing Rights Alliance (?FRA?), a non-profit fishing conservation organization, filed a lawsuit on May 18, 2009 against the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) to enjoin Amendment 30B to the Reef Fish Management. The suit alleges that the NMFS has violated the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Reauthorization Act of 2006 in managing the grouper fishery in federal waters by failing to meet Congressional mandates to replace and upgrade the Marine Recreational Fishing Statistical Survey (?MRFSS?) program which was not designed to provide real-time data to determine whether a quota is reached. In 2006, Congress found that MRFSS was flawed and required Defendant to take very specific actions to correct it by January 1, 2009. <P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><DIV id=rootDiv align=center><TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff; MARGIN: 0px" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle><TABLE style="WIDTH: 600px" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=600><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width=600 align=left><TABLE hideFocus id=content_LETTER.BLOCK1 tabIndex=0 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=2 align=middle></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #003366; PADDING-LEFT: 1px; PADDING-RIGHT: 1px; PADDING-TOP: 1px" bgColor=#003366 vAlign=top align=left><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #003366" bgColor=#003366 vAlign=top width="100%" align=left><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-SIZE: 18pt" vAlign=top align=left>Recreational Fishing Alliance </TD><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #ffffff; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" align=right>*Press Release* </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #0066cc" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#0066cc><TBODY><TR><TD height=6 vAlign=top align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor=#ffffff vAlign=top width="100%" align=left><TABLE hideFocus style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 6px" id=content_LETTER.BLOCK4 tabIndex=0 border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-FAMILY: Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #003366; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" vAlign=top align=left>For Immediate Release June 11, 2009</DIV>Contact: Jim Hutchinson, Jr 888 564-6732</DIV></DIV><P align=center>*LEADING U.S. SENATOR TO INTRODUCE CRITICAL FISHERIES LEGISLATION -
Schumer says "We can rebuild stocks & allow fishing industry to survive."*
</DIV>Washington - U.S. Senator Charles E. Schumer (D-NY) announced today that he will introduce legislation in the Senate, authored in the House by Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. (D-NJ), that will bring much-needed science-based modernization and flexibility to the outdated federal rules currently stifling America's once thriving fishing industry. 

"We need better science and more flexibility in our fishing management regulations. We can rebuild fishing stocks and allow for a more nuanced approach to regulations that is not overly onerous on our fishing communities," said Schumer. "Keeping our fishing stocks healthy is absolutely critical, but -- because it is based on outdated science -- the current system not only falls short of achieving this goal, but it's taking Long Island fishing community down with it," Schumer said.

The Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act (MSA) as presently written requires most fisheries designated by the Department of Commerce's National Marine Fisheries Service as "overfished" be completely rebuilt within 10 years, a timeline Schumer argues is arbitrary, often too broad, not based on available science, and lacking reasonable exceptions. The 10-year deadline has produced stringent quotas imprecisely limiting Long Island fishermen's catch, and the lack of management flexibility in the current regime prevents regulators from pursuing a more balanced approach based on the most up-to-date science. 

Both the House and Senate bills have been crafted to allow fish stocks to rebuild while also taking consideration of the economic consequences to fishermen and fishing communities. In the case of summer flounder or fluke, the latest assessment data released shows that the stock is not overfished and that overfishing is not occurring. Regardless of the continued growth of the stock, which fisheries experts say is at its highest level ever in the past 40 years, rigid mandates written into MSA require that New York anglers continue to fish on tighter restrictions. "Our legislation provides some much needed balance and flexibility within the existing system to both preserve our fishing stocks and allow fisheries to thrive and grow," Schumer added. 

"Senator Schumer clearly recognizes the flaws in the current legislation and understands that the fishing communities on Long Island are under unnecessary stress from the current law," said Jim Donofrio, Executive Director of the Recreational Fishing Alliance (RFA). "We applaud the Senator for standing up for anglers, identifying the problem, and addressing conservation needs and socioeconomic requirements in this one critical piece of fisheries legislation."

Schumer cited New York's decline in summer flounder quotas as an example of how onerous regulations hit home for anglers on Long Island. Comparing 2006 to 2009, New York suffered a 13% decline in recreational fluke quota, shrinking from 935,943 pounds in 2006 to 821,019 pounds in 2009. Along the Mid-Atlantic Coast, the numbers are similar, yet under requirements within MSA - reauthorized by Congress in 2006 -- the regional fishery management councils have very limited exceptions to rebuild stocks to precise targets within 10 years.

Because the arbitrary deadline often requires stocks to be rebuilt to unprecedented levels and must be met without regard to the impact it will have on fishing communities and related industries, Sen. Schumer said the Flexibility in Rebuilding American Fisheries Act of 2009 offers a way to ease pressure on fishermen and their communities as fisheries continue to rebuild.

"Fluke are now estimated to be 75% rebuilt and are on a strong trend toward total rebuilt status, yet because of the way the law is currently written, regulators continue to mindlessly reduce quotas every year in an effort to meet this arbitrary deadline, with no concern about how our industry is literally being strangled out of existence," said Capt. Dennis Kanyuk, President of United Boatmen of New York. "This approach has devastated our industry, with revenue losses exceeding 60% industry wide over the last five years and greater losses expected this year. We all hope that Congress acts swiftly to pass this bill, while there is still an industry left to save." 

"The RFA is hoping these bills are a wake-up call for other members of Congress to jump into the fray and get Magnuson fixed once and for all, and base these management decisions on science," said Donofrio. "The arbitrary and unnecessary deadlines are based on emotional policy decisions, not science." Donofrio explained that the limited flexibility language written into the legislation will help put fisheries management decisions back on track with scientific commitments at the federal level. 

"RFA agrees with the Obama administration and (NOAA) Secretary Lubchenco that fisheries must be managed under science," said Donofrio, while adding "all non-scientific rebuilding provisions must be removed from Magnuson, and environmental stewards like Rep. Pallone and Sen. Schumer truly understand that." 

Schumer stressed that the legislation would increase flexibility of quotas and allow science to determine regulations. "It has become clear that the current law can sometimes impose unduly strict timelines for rebuilding depleted fisheries and this legislation provides a measure of flexibility in the rebuilding periods in order to keep fishing communities economically viable, without compromising the ultimate rebuilding goal," Schumer said.</DIV><DIV align=center>
######
The Recreational Fishing Alliance is a national, grassroots political action organization representing recreational fishermen and the recreational fishing industry on marine fisheries issues. The RFA Mission is to safeguard the rights of saltwater anglers, protect marine, boat and tackle industry jobs, and ensure the long-term sustainability of our Nation's saltwater fisheries. For more information, call 888-JOIN-RFA or visit www.joinrfa.org. </DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor=#ffffff vAlign=top width="100%" align=left></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" bgColor=#ffffff vAlign=top width="100%" align=left><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%" align=left></TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%" align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #003366; PADDING-LEFT: 1px; PADDING-RIGHT: 1px; PADDING-TOP: 1px" bgColor=#003366 height=4 align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top width="100%" colSpan=3 align=left></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV><DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" align=center></DIV><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1>







<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700"><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px" class=CM1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: black; FONT-WEIGHT: 700">


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## ScullsMcNasty (Oct 4, 2007)

> *285exp (6/19/2009)*Sorry, but seeing as how Florida refused to adhere to the Fed guidelines in their state waters last year and ran the season from April 21-Oct 31, it's hard to sympathize. All you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines this year. Last year's chickens have come home to roost.


this is the PENSACOLA fishing forum!! last time i checked pensacola was in FL so why dont you go back to your Fed guidelines following state and leave us poor outlaws alone...


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

> *285exp (6/19/2009)*Sorry, but seeing as how Florida refused to adhere to the Fed guidelines in their state waters last year and ran the season from April 21-Oct 31, it's hard to sympathize. All you're having to do is follow the Fed guidelines this year. Last year's chickens have come home to roost.


Why should Florida ever adhere to the Feds. Do you like the Feds in your state affairs? I sure don't and I wish our legislators had the back bone like the state of TX and tell them to butt out. TX is doing just fine without the Feds running their state waters and I'm sure Florida would to. As far as the chickens coming home to roost just ain't so just yet. We will see what comes out of the lawsuits and bills as to what if any changes are going to made. IT AIN'T OVER UNTIL THE FAT LADY SINGS.


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## eodryan (Mar 4, 2009)

Does anyone know a shortcut to a letter that we can email to our congress dudes?


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## rauber (Oct 10, 2007)

sorry guys, i dont get the whole snapper thing. for me personly its a fsih i dont want to catch anyway because it tastes too fishy to me. i still understand that there is the risk of overpopulation and pushing away other species. sorry i dont want to cause trouble here, but for me its not a fish worth fishing for. i would trade one rock salmon over 10 snappers. just my opinion.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

> *rauber (6/19/2009)*sorry guys, i dont get the whole snapper thing. for me personly its a fsih i dont want to catch anyway because it tastes too fishy to me. i still understand that there is the risk of overpopulation and pushing away other species. sorry i dont want to cause trouble here, but for me its not a fish worth fishing for. i would trade one rock salmon over 10 snappers. just my opinion.


Rauber

The issue goes way beyondwether or not you like to eatsnapper. 

WhatIdon't get is why you feel the need to comment at all?But since you chimed in,"how do you feel about the Federal Government's management of grouper via the NMFS?" 

But maybe you don't like to eat grouper either?

How aboutrecreational fishing rights in general? Am assuming you do still fish and keep them to eat?

Mark W


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## rauber (Oct 10, 2007)

> *markw4321 (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *rauber (6/19/2009)*sorry guys, i dont get the whole snapper thing. for me personly its a fsih i dont want to catch anyway because it tastes too fishy to me. i still understand that there is the risk of overpopulation and pushing away other species. sorry i dont want to cause trouble here, but for me its not a fish worth fishing for. i would trade one rock salmon over 10 snappers. just my opinion.
> ...




this is my last post on this before it gets out of hand. just get over it that you are not allowed to catch the fish you are used to catch 5 or 10 or 25 years ago. its not about filling the cooler its about the fun. and its still fun as long you are allowed to go fishing and catch fish and are allowed to keep fish. if one species is closed fish for another and be happy. thats how i see it. as long you can catch 10 mingos or 10 dolphins or as many triggers you want, whats the problem? i know red snapper is a traditional pensacola fish and everybody claims to be allowed to catch them. the commercial like the recreational guys. maybe the commercial guys have better connections with the government or whatever, i dont care, but they make a living out of it. most of us(speaking as a recreational fisherman) do it as a hobby. i started to see as like sportfishing. if i get a snapper it was fun catching it ok, if i have to release it, maybe flipper gets a free meal, maybe it survives, maybe it dies and is crab food, whatever i dont care. 

if you want a change use your democratic rights and go on the streets. nobody cares about letters and shit. catch your fu...g snapper limit drive to talahassee or whatever and dump the snappers in front of the office. do something that gets public attention!!!!! or are people to afraid to go on the streets? is this to left wing? i dont know but like i said its up to you


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## Death From Above (Sep 28, 2007)

> *rauber (6/19/2009)*sorry guys, i dont get the whole snapper thing. for me personly its a fsih i dont want to catch anyway because it tastes too fishy to me. i still understand that there is the risk of overpopulation and pushing away other species. sorry i dont want to cause trouble here, but for me its not a fish worth fishing for. i would trade one rock salmon over 10 snappers. just my opinion.


:withstupidWTF is a "rock salmon" and how can any "salmon"taste less fishy than a red snapper? Salmon is about as "fishy" tasting as you can get! Have you ever even eaten gulf red snapper? Where are you from, Oregon?


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## Jhoe (May 4, 2009)

Time to bring a grill on the boat i guess.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

> *eodryan (6/19/2009)*Does anyone know a shortcut to a letter that we can email to our congress dudes?


Below is a letter that RFA is asking to be sent to the President. There is a fax number or use the mailing address on the header of the letter.<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"> June 19, 2009<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">President Barack Hussein Obama<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">The White House<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW</st1:address></st1:Street><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><st1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Washington</st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">, <st1:State w:st="on">DC</st1:State> <st1ostalCode w:st="on">20500</st1ostalCode></st1lace><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Fax: 202 456-3348<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Dear Mr. President,<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">The Recreational Fishing Alliance (RFA)<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">1 <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">represents the interests of saltwater anglers and related businesses from coast to coast. Our view on saltwater fishing, which according to the U.S.Department of Commerce is <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">America</st1lace></st1:country-region>?s number one pastime, is based on a tradition as old as the foundation of our great nation.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Traditional recreational fishing access has always been and must always be open and free to all anglers. A recent proposal by a Texas-based conservation group was entered on the record at the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council for future discussion. The document suggests that recreational fishing should be considered under ?_<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri-Italic; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri-Italic">a catch shares program_<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">,? which your administration strongly favors in the management of the commercial fishing sector.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Although we have seen no formal position from your administration regarding recreational catch shares, we are concerned that the environmental groups are seeking to kill our open access tradition with little thought to impact such actions will have on coastal communities and individual freedoms. RFA has no formal position on the commercial sector?s catch share proposal, as of yet. Their sector?s leadership will ultimately decide what direction their industry needs to go. The RFA will, however,<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Continue to monitor that process as allocation issues emerge.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">As far as the recreational fishing community is concerned, the majority of saltwater anglers and the businesses that depend on and cater to those recreational anglers need to enjoy an open access system that is managed under fishing seasons, size limits and bag limits. This system needs some improvement, but the management process can be made to work well and remains the cornerstone of <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">America</st1:country-region></st1lace>?s recreational fishery and the real ?free market approach? to managing our nation?s fisheries.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Mr. President, there is no place for ?catch shares? or ?individual fishing quotas? (IFQ) within the recreational fishing sector. An IFQ or catch share fishery for recreational fishing would collapse<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Our coastal businesses, from the marinas, tackle shops, boat dealers, and for-hire industry, on along to the restaurants, hotels, gas stations and grocery stores which rely on a vibrant tourism boost from recreational fishing activity. Such impacts will not be exclusive to the seaside regions, as the trickle-up effect to wholesalers and manufacturers would also be immediately felt in the heartland.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">NOAA?s own estimates report that over 13 million recreational anglers spent $5.8 billion on fishing trips and $25.6 billion on durable fishing-related equipment in 2006, contributing more than $82 billion in sales to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">U.S.</st1lace></st1:country-region> economy. The power of the recreational fishing industry supports over 500,000 jobs, and generates over $38 billion in value-added impacts each year. This new scheme for the privatization of our nation?s marine resources would be devastating to our overall economy, and flies in the face of the public trust doctrine which protects the interest and rights of the public to free access of marine and riparian places for fishing and navigation.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Mr. President, the current federal fisheries law (Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act) has provisions in it which are not based on sound science and are actually arbitrary in nature. These troubling provisions in the current law are causing severe access problems for recreational anglers in many instances along our coasts. Red snapper, a primary fishery from North Carolina through Florida and all along the Gulf of Mexico, is about to be shut down because of flawed science. Catch shares are not the answer. These problems in Magnuson need to be addressed immediately by Congress through a legislative and science based solution.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Rep. Frank Pallone (D-NJ) as well as New York Senator Charles Schumer have introduced legislation which would help open the door for Magnuson reform, but they are meeting strong resistance from environmental groups claiming to want fisheries managed under sound science, where in actuality these groups are supporting a ?fatally flawed? (according to the National Research Council) process. The spin from these groups is that their bills will allow for over fishing to occur. However, the word ?over fishing? is an ambiguous term; we actually have healthy rebuilding occurring on stocks like red<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Snapper and summer flounder, yet it?s still framed as ?over fishing? because of the current statutory definition. Ironically, over fishing can even occur with no fishing at all.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Conservation, access, and harvest can all be synonymous; but time frames must be adjusted when rebuilding progress is being made in order to let fishing communities and their related businesses survive. Our Board would be happy to sit down and discuss our communities? specific needs, in hopes that we can maintain traditional recreational fishing access that would be consistent with the public trust doctrine and also allow fishing and fisheries rebuilding to occur simultaneously.<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri">Sincerely,<o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: Calibri"><o></o><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><o></o>


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

> *rauber (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *markw4321 (6/19/2009)*
> ...


Rauber

Am well aware thatfishing is not about "filling the box". 

This issue we are dealing with here gets to a question on whether or not recreationalfishermanwill be able to fish at all in the future.

I implore you to read below textconcerning potential NMFS actions over on the east coast of Florida and up the Atlantic seaboard. Notethe part where it states:

"the Council is developing a number of alternatives targeting areas where catches of red snapper are highest and closing these areas to all snapper and grouper fishing. The size and configurations of the areas in the alternatives vary but primarily include waters off the coasts of South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida extending as far south as the Cape Canaveral area."

Read between the lines and you can see wherein the futurerecreationalfisherman may not be able to go fishing and catch fish because of concerns about red snapper by catch mortality.This includescatching "10 mingos or 10 dolphins or as many triggers you want" as you put it.

And before you go there i realize we are on the Gulf Coast. if NMFS institutes these type fishing closures on the East coast they will be here before to long. 

if you think these red snapper issues won't impact you i consider you sadly misinformed.Why don't you get informed and jointhe fight for recreational fishing rights before we are not allowed to fish anymore at all?

Mark W

<TABLE class=tborder id=post2371434 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_2371434 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d8d8d8 1px solid"><DIV id=post_message_2371434>*Council Continues to Review Alternatives to End Overfishing *

<DIV align=center><DIV align=center>*Closure of large areas to all snapper and grouper fishing may be necessary to end overfishing of red snapper*</DIV></DIV>

The South Atlantic Fishery Management Council continued to review management options for 10 species currently undergoing overfishing, including red snapper, during its meeting last week in Stuart, Florida. The alternatives include various options for closures of federal waters extending from portions of South Carolina through north/central Florida to all snapper and grouper fishing in order to end overfishing for red snapper. The 2008 stock assessment for red snapper in the South Atlantic region shows the stock to be overfished and undergoing overfishing at eight times the sustainable level. In March, the Council requested an interim rule to close the red snapper fishery for both commercial and recreational fishermen in order to help meet the mandates of the Magnuson-Stevens Act to end overfishing within one year. The controversial request for a closure is currently being reviewed by NOAA Fisheries Service (NMFS).
However, a closure of the red snapper fishery will not be sufficient to end overfishing. The total mortality (landings and dead discards) must be reduced by 87% according to the 2008 stock assessment conducted through the Southeast Data, Assessment, and Review (SEDAR) program. Even with a closure, red snapper will still experience excessive bycatch mortality (dead discards) as fishermen pursue other species of snapper and grouper. The bulk of red snapper catches are from the recreational fishery, where an estimated 40% of the released fish die. The estimated release mortality for the commercial fishery is higher (90%) due to the deeper waters fished and different handling practices. As a result, the Council is developing a number of alternatives targeting areas where catches of red snapper are highest and closing these areas to all snapper and grouper fishing. The size and configurations of the areas in the alternatives vary but primarily include waters off the coasts of South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida extending as far south as the Cape Canaveral area.
Approximately 85 people attended the public comment session held by the Council last week, most to express their concern about the negative economic and social impacts of such closures. Charter captains, headboat operators, tackle manufacturers, fish house operators, and both recreational and commercial fishermen provided emotionally charged comments and questioned the need for such closures. Many comments centered around the 2008 SEDAR stock assessment, questioning data used in the assessment and the reductions necessary to end overfishing. 
The Magnuson-Stevens Act also requires long-term management measures for rebuilding the red snapper stock and the establishment of Annual Catch Limits for species undergoing overfishing by 2010. Annual Catch Limits must be implemented for all other species under the Council?s jurisdiction by 2011. Last year, the Council began development of Amendment 17 to the Snapper Grouper Fishery Management Plan to meet the 2010 deadline. 
After reviewing the management alternatives included in the draft amendment, the Council decided last week to divide the amendment into two parts; Amendment 17A will address management measures for red snapper and Amendment 17B will address measures to end overfishing for the remaining species undergoing overfishing: speckled hind, warsaw grouper, golden tilefish, snowy grouper, black grouper, black sea bass, gag, red grouper, and vermilion snapper. Public hearings for both Amendment 17A and Amendment 17B will be scheduled later this year.

*Interim Rule Update* ? Dr. Roy Crabtree, Regional Administrator with NMFS Southeast Regional Office provided the Council with an update on the Council?s request to implement an interim rule to help address overfishing by closing the red snapper fishery for up to one year. According to Dr. Crabtree, NMFS will hold a 30-day comment period on the interim rule. The comment period will likely begin in early July. A review of the comments will require an additional 30 days, and if a Final Rule is published to approve the closure, regulations would go into effect 30 days after publication. If implemented, a closure would likely go into place sometime in October. Note that all comments should be addressed to NMFS regarding the decision. Meanwhile, the red snapper fishery remains open with a current recreational bag limit of 2 fish per person/day included in a 10 snapper aggregate bag limit, and a 20? Total Length size limit for both commercial and recreational fishermen.

The next meeting of the Council is scheduled for September 14 - 18, 2009 in Charleston, SC. For additional information regarding Council meetings, including briefing book materials and summary motions, visit www.safmc.net or contact the Council office. </DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #d8d8d8 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d8d8d8 1px solid">







</TD><TD class=alt1 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d8d8d8 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #d8d8d8 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #d8d8d8 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d8d8d8 1px solid" align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## reelhappy (Oct 31, 2007)

> *Death From Above (6/19/2009)*
> 
> 
> > *rauber (6/19/2009)*sorry guys, i dont get the whole snapper thing. for me personly its a fsih i dont want to catch anyway because it tastes too fishy to me. i still understand that there is the risk of overpopulation and pushing away other species. sorry i dont want to cause trouble here, but for me its not a fish worth fishing for. i would trade one rock salmon over 10 snappers. just my opinion.
> ...


rock salmon is what the destin boys call almaco's. is a member of the amberjack family. i think they are the best tasting of all the jacks! i love them and would trade snapper for them too!


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## bob II (Dec 26, 2008)

concerned aboput red snapper?????Our gag grouper will be totally closed for 2010 so if you wan them go get them now. Once gag is closed and the the over run of red snapper for 2009 because the fish are 2 to 4 times larger than ever before, also look for extended closures of other reef fish because of the possibility of catching a gag or red snapper out of season. Enjoy the reef fish fishing this year because it could very well be the last year for a while.

How do we fix, get the masses to stand up and say they have had enough of the madness and mismanagement of our resources and emand flexibility of the overfishing requirements. Without the overfishing requirements being relaxed there is no flexibility and therefore no fishing.


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## Jhoe (May 4, 2009)

Fax has been sent. thanks for posting that letter and information man.


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

> *Jhoe (6/19/2009)*Fax has been sent. thanks for posting that letter and information man.


You are welcome. Everyone please fax or mail the letter that I posted here. This is just not about Red Snapper it's about your right to fish period. The bills are in Washington now and a lot of attention needs to be brought to this isssue. Print it and have your friends sign and send. The more that fax machine goes off the more attention we are drawing to ourselves.


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## spearfisher (Oct 3, 2007)

What we need to do is find a list of Candidates at the federal, state, and local level that we can elect. We need to put all elected officials on notice that we intend to vote for someone that is williing to protect fishing rights, and we will actively campaign against anyone that refuses to do so. Its time to activate the PFF Political Action Committee!


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## The LaJess II (Oct 3, 2007)

Spearfish you are right. For now on I'm going to want to know where they stand on the fishery issues along with other issues. 

It's very important that everyonecontact Senator Nelson and tell him as a Floridian Recreational Angler we want him to support bill S 1255 Please fax and I was told to fax or mail letters that a lot of emails get deleted.

Washington, D.C. Office
United States Senate
716 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: 202-224-5274
Fax: 202-228-2183


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## Lyin Too (Aug 31, 2009)

How bout this one, sound familiar?


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## Chet88 (Feb 20, 2008)

Old thread? No wait a minute sounds the same.


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