# gulf council preferred 47.1% 52.9% private



## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

During their meeting on Friday in key west the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council Council chose preferred alternatives for amendment 40. Action 1, alternative 2 would establish a red snapper for-hire component. Action 2, alternative 4 would allocate the red snapper quota based on average landings from 1996 - 2012 resulting in 47.1% for the for-hire component and 52.9% for the private angling component.

I guess that means around 2 million pounds of snapper given to approximately 1200 active federal permit holders and 2 million pounds or around 300k fish for the coastal fishing populations of TX, LA, MS, AL, and FL. Meanwhile they say they are working on a lawsuit to stop the steps from going non -compliant and I'm sure they are planning on coming after trigger, mingo, grouper, aj, and everything else that swims next.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

https://m.facebook.com/GulfCouncil/...45699.204366496267372/693566407347376/?type=1

Here is the Convo on it if your up facebook.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

This is designed to provide a ZERO ay season next year for the private recs while giving the for-hire sector an undeserved 47% of our fish. Kinda like they gave the headboat EFP about double what they should have gotten and are still able to fish for snapper today while we are stuck at the docks.

Roy claims that about 1/2 the fish are caught in state waters, so those will be taken off the top. Then you have a 20% buffer, which will probably be applied to the private recs but not the for-hire vessels' 47%. 
So, 100% - 50% - 47% - 20% = NFFU (NO FISH FOR US).

That's the Plan; the fishery is closed to EVERYONE except enviro-funded commercial and charter captains, effectively shutting out the majority SHAREHOLDERS in the Gulf.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Just remember all you guys supported state seasons now all the states are non-complaint and you all can fish in state waters, some states year round. This in itself will kill any chance of a federal season next year. Every recreatioal angler that fishes on my federally permitted boat will be unable to access this fishery.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Whatever. 

Any kind of Plan that automatically shuts out the majority of stakeholders from the gitgo is doomed to fail. 

State fisheries managers have already proven to be more ompetent in managing our fisheries than the fed's have ever dreamed of doing.


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## Outside9 (Apr 30, 2008)

Going to get mighty congested in the local freshwater fishing spots when those big offshore boats start launching at the Blackwater, Yellow River other other freshwater ramps north of Hwy 90.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just remember all you guys supported state seasons now all the states are non-complaint and you all can fish in state waters, some states year round. This in itself will kill any chance of a federal season next year. Every recreatioal angler that fishes on my federally permitted boat will be unable to access this fishery.


Just remember that the state actions to open up the their waters for fishing was in response to the federal actions to close the fishery after the judges ruling on the "commercial" lawsuit which you guys supported.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just remember all you guys supported state seasons now all the states are non-complaint and you all can fish in state waters, some states year round. This in itself will kill any chance of a federal season next year. Every recreatioal angler that fishes on my federally permitted boat will be unable to access this fishery.


Also you should just remember that the state actions to open up their waters for fishing, followed federal regulators going forward with a head boat pilot program which you guys supported, where recreational fisherman on certain federally permitted head boats are currently accessing the fishery and catching and keeping red snapper in federal waters when private boat owners cannot.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just remember all you guys supported state seasons now all the states are non-complaint and you all can fish in state waters, some states year round. This in itself will kill any chance of a federal season next year. Every recreatioal angler that fishes on my federally permitted boat will be unable to access this fishery.


Finally you should just remember that the reason recreational fisherman on your federally permitted charter boat cannot access the state water fishery is due to a federal rule upheld and left in place recently by the federal agency that you guys support daily verbally and in written form, even though that same agency's actions and policies manufactured this current "crisis" state we are in.


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## SnapperSlapper (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm guessing when it is all said and done the power and will of several hundred thousand recreational fishermen will over come the power and will of a few snapper bus drivers out of Zeke's. I look forward to the federal lawsuit (by the federal judge that is in collusion with EDF) suing Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida. This should be fun. And I'm sure when congress finally looks into it there will be some lost email. Ard, you may want to go ahead and look back at all your emails now before it ever gets to that.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

SnapperSlapper said:


> I'm guessing when it is all said and done the power and will of several hundred thousand recreational fishermen will over come the power and will of a few snapper bus drivers out of Zeke's. I look forward to the federal lawsuit (by the federal judge that is in collusion with EDF) suing Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida. This should be fun. And I'm sure when congress finally looks into it there will be some lost email. Ard, you may want to go ahead and look back at all your emails now before it ever gets to that.


That is the crazy side side of this, a few hundred federal permit owners doing national marine fisheries service bidding. Tail wagging the dog for sure.


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## Mark Collins (Dec 27, 2012)

And The Lawyer's Get Richer !!!!!


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## 49913 (Apr 18, 2014)

markw4321 said:


> That is the crazy side side of this, a few hundred federal permit owners doing national marine fisheries service bidding. Tail wagging the dog for sure.


 Honestly not trying to come off as a smart-ass, but sometimes, it's impossible. Conservative or Liberal Government, has been for sale for a long time, and now that the Supremes have decided that corporations are people too, there's NOTHING that can't be bought including the Gulf of Mexico. This is just how things get done now.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Right now, we, the private recs are their enemy. Wait until this for-hire IFQ comes into play, and watch how they are going to turn on each other. Ard and his charterboat brethren in Alabama will not be wanting to give up their historical slice of the pie to the Texas guys. Jennings has already come out and admitted it - there WILL be a substantial reduction of the charter fleet if a for-hire IFQ comes to pass.

They say they are "one big happy family" - it's about to get real dysfunctional.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Just remember all you guys supported state seasons now all the states are non-complaint and you all can fish in state waters, some states year round. This in itself will kill any chance of a federal season next year. Every recreatioal angler that fishes on my federally permitted boat will be unable to access this fishery.


Just like your state of Alabama just went non-compliant?

If they are going to wield state water snapper as a weapon against the states, then it is time, as Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama have already done, is to extend their fisheries jurisdiction out to whatever point necessary to support and maintain a healthy private rec fishery. 

I would like to see all of the Gulf states extend their fisheries jurisdictions out to 100 miles, and institute a 6 month red snapper season. Let's see the feds' enforce that action without the help of the state game wardens.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

is there going to be a vote of the federal charter permit holders on this gulf council preferred action or is NMFS just going to make it so?


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

That's where the tricky part comes in - NOW you will see the prerequisites of WHO will be ELIGIBLE to vote; income requirements, those who have "substantially fished the fishery", etc. Just like they did in the commercial IFQs, they cut out a large % of the permit holders.

Personally, I believe that ALL recreational fishermen are stakeholders and should have a vote, but that's the LAST thing they want.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom Hilton said:


> That's where the tricky part comes in - NOW you will see the prerequisites of WHO will be ELIGIBLE to vote; income requirements, those who have "substantially fished the fishery", etc. Just like they did in the commercial IFQs, they cut out a large % of the permit holders.
> 
> Personally, I believe that ALL recreational fishermen are stakeholders and should have a vote, but that's the LAST thing they want.


 
since they went back in history when there were 1600 permit holders to the period from 1996-2012 to develop the percentages, seems like they should allow max participation in the vote, but they wont.


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## Blake R. (Mar 17, 2009)

I say we just secede.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mark Collins (Dec 27, 2012)

Tom Hilton said:


> Just like your state of Alabama just went non-compliant?
> 
> If they are going to wield state water snapper as a weapon against the states, then it is time, as Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama have already done, is to extend their fisheries jurisdiction out to whatever point necessary to support and maintain a healthy private rec fishery.
> 
> _*I would like to see all of the Gulf states extend their fisheries jurisdictions out to 100 miles, and institute a 6 month red snapper season. Let's see the feds' enforce that action without the help of the state game wardens*_.


Florida goes noncompliant but FWC boats are transporting federal officers, writing tickets.
Whats wrong with this picture !


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## Mark Collins (Dec 27, 2012)

I,m with BlakeR


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

You quote a few hundred thousand private rec fisherman but in the last 4 meetings I've been to I've seen, get ready for it, ....ZERO rec snapper fisherman to stand up and give any testimony. You quote a few hundred permit holders but the fact is it's probably more like 3 DOZEN permit holders are running this show.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

LopeAlong said:


> You quote a few hundred thousand private rec fisherman but in the last 4 meetings I've been to I've seen, get ready for it, ....ZERO rec snapper fisherman to stand up and give any testimony. You quote a few hundred permit holders but the fact is it's probably more like 3 DOZEN permit holders are running this show.


I think the term for the general apathy is called feeling "disenfranchised".


as in
past tense: disenfranchised; past participle: disenfranchised
deprive (someone) of the right to vote.
"the law disenfranchised some 3,000 voters on the basis of a residence qualification"
deprived of power; marginalized.
"a hard core of kids who are disenfranchised and don't feel connected to the school"
deprive (someone) of a right or privilege.
"a measure that would disenfranchise people from access to legal advice"


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> I think the term for the general apathy is called feeling "disenfranchised".
> 
> 
> as in
> ...


Yeah there Disenfranchised now so no one shows up, way different than 10 or 15 years ago when no one showed up. At least you came up with a condition that everyone has.


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## johnboatjosh (May 19, 2008)

I see you post this same fact over and over on every thread about this subject. It doesn't matter if a single rec angler EVER shows up for one of these dog and pony shows. What is happening is no more right because of it. Is that really how fisheries science works? "Oh well, they didn't show up for the meeting. They'll have to deal with whatever we decide." That's how you decide what kind of meal to prepare for the office Christmas party; but definitely not how you set fish regulations. 



LopeAlong said:


> You quote a few hundred thousand private rec fisherman but in the last 4 meetings I've been to I've seen, get ready for it, ....ZERO rec snapper fisherman to stand up and give any testimony. You quote a few hundred permit holders but the fact is it's probably more like 3 DOZEN permit holders are running this show.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

johnboatjosh said:


> I see you post this same fact over and over on every thread about this subject. It doesn't matter if a single rec angler EVER shows up for one of these dog and pony shows. What is happening is no more right because of it. Is that really how fisheries science works? "Oh well, they didn't show up for the meeting. They'll have to deal with whatever we decide." That's how you decide what kind of meal to prepare for the office Christmas party; but definitely not how you set fish regulations.



Well at least you will be getting what you asked for.


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## johnboatjosh (May 19, 2008)

That's definitely one way to look at it. Sad thing is; in the end I'm afraid you guys are going to wind up with a lot more (or less-depending on how you view it) than you asked for. 



Fairwaterfishing said:


> Well at least you will be getting what you asked for.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Well at least you will be getting what you asked for.


Your a smart dude you have to know the council is a charade with respect to recreational fishing representation. The only reason your enjoying yourself now is cause the goals of the fishery managers are in line with your goals.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

97% of us asked to get rid of Sector Separation - that is a matter of Public Record.

What they do? Tabled it.

Don't give us this BS that it REALLY matters who shows up at these meetings Ard - the decisions have already been made. These Gulf Council meetings are just a dog and pony show to cover their ass, and it is people like you who wll get what YOU have asked for. That will really be amusing when it happens.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Your a smart dude you have to know the council is a charade with respect to recreational fishing representation. The only reason your enjoying yourself now is cause the goals of the fishery managers are in line with your goals.


Do you really think Im enjoying myself not being able to keep a red snapper when pretty much every state licensed boat can? Talking with long time customers trying to explain the situation pretty much daily, If you don't think for one minute that I will fight for there right to keep the same fish that you can keep right now you all have another thing coming. The discrimination lawsuit will be a slam dunk, and will seal the deal for the non-boat owning American fisherman. In actuality y'all begging for the states to go non-complaint was the help we needed. Thank You!


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Tom Hilton said:


> 97% of us asked to get rid of Sector Separation - that is a matter of Public Record.
> 
> What they do? Tabled it.
> 
> Don't give us this BS that it REALLY matters who shows up at these meetings Ard - the decisions have already been made. These Gulf Council meetings are just a dog and pony show to cover their ass, and it is people like you who wll get what YOU have asked for. That will really be amusing when it happens.


I sure hope so Hilton, thanks for the support.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Do you really think Im enjoying myself not being able to keep a red snapper when pretty much every state licensed boat can? Talking with long time customers trying to explain the situation pretty much daily, If you don't think for one minute that I will fight for there right to keep the same fish that you can keep right now you all have another thing coming. The discrimination lawsuit will be a slam dunk, and will seal the deal for the non-boat owning American fisherman. In actuality y'all begging for the states to go non-complaint was the help we needed. Thank You!


My comment about you enjoying yourself was strictly regarding the council movement to separate the sector. I should have made that clear.


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## jgraham154 (Jul 15, 2008)

Your welcome, and I will fish from alabama, to every state that alabama waters touches and will be able to keep red snapper when I can. All the While you troll for Spanish and tell tourist that a porgy is a white snapper sir!


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

I will say that I think,you have it wrong and that the feds discriminated with the head boat pilot and the shortened seasons forcing the state's hand.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Do you really think Im enjoying myself not being able to keep a red snapper when pretty much every state licensed boat can? Talking with long time customers trying to explain the situation pretty much daily, If you don't think for one minute that I will fight for there right to keep the same fish that you can keep right now you all have another thing coming. The discrimination lawsuit will be a slam dunk, and will seal the deal for the non-boat owning American fisherman. In actuality y'all begging for the states to go non-complaint was the help we needed. Thank You!


I guess you are suing Roy for implementing 30B? The states have nothing to do with your nonability to fish state waters son.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> My comment about you enjoying yourself was strictly regarding the council movement to separate the sector. I should have made that clear.


The Councils movement? Hmmmm.... seems like we have been pushing and working on sector separation for over 5 years now. 5 years to gain industry support. The sign up sheets delivered to the council from every port pretty much shows the support from working federal permit holders. 5 years ago we had 120 days of snapper season and It was brought to our attention that in exactly 5 years our access would be ZERO. Well its here. Most Captains refused to believe that it would ever happen. The history of the failed 30 year old fishery management plan was not too hard to see coming. Guess what if something is not done and soon we will be just like the Atlantic coast and they will shut down all bottom fishing, due to payback provisions and by catch. I guess you guys refuse to see that one coming too. Did y'all even know that payback provisions was in Amendment 28 reallocation? That would have been the nail in the coffin for all recreational fishermen.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Tom Hilton said:


> I guess you are suing Roy for implementing 30B? The states have nothing to do with your nonability to fish state waters son.


Since your so smart look up my past public testimony on 30b. I think I talked about 30b over 5 times the past few years. Look it up and see what I said.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

jgraham154 said:


> Your welcome, and I will fish from alabama, to every state that alabama waters touches and will be able to keep red snapper when I can. All the While you troll for Spanish and tell tourist that a porgy is a white snapper sir!


Good deal! Have fun. If you need some numbers just PM me, ole Snapper Slapper has some hot ones on the 58 and 31 line.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> I will say that I think,you have it wrong and that the feds discriminated with the head boat pilot and the shortened seasons forcing the state's hand.


The States especially Florida was non-complaint WAY before any pilot program was formed. Try again.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Oh Lord Larry Huntley is about to post about the non accountability of recreational fisherman. I can feel it. I'm out I can't take this sizzle right now.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

markw4321 said:


> Oh Lord Larry Huntley is about to post about the non accountability of recreational fisherman. I can feel it. I'm out I can't take this sizzle right now.


Y'all have a good night, I have doubles again in the morning, gots to get some shut eye..


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## SnapperSlapper (Feb 13, 2009)

Hey Ard, fish the shit out of that number. Hell post it on up. But as of now that is a commercial spot. So fish it soon. Hate to ruin a good close in spot like that on commercial fishing, but if it is gonna be ruined so be it. A commercial boat will be there very soon and will try to catch every fish on the spot. And hey, we might even ride around awhile and look for some other stuff in the neighborhood. Really turn it into burned ground. So if you want to fish it, do it soon.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

SnapperSlapper said:


> Hey Ard, fish the shit out of that number. Hell post it on up. But as of now that is a commercial spot. So fish it soon. Hate to ruin a good close in spot like that on commercial fishing, but if it is gonna be ruined so be it. A commercial boat will be there very soon and will try to catch every fish on the spot. And hey, we might even ride around awhile and look for some other stuff in the neighborhood. Really turn it into burned ground. So if you want to fish it, do it soon.


Been fishing it for a couple of years, no big deal at all. I have plenty.


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## SnapperSlapper (Feb 13, 2009)

10/4 good buddy. Have a nice trip driving the family from Tennessee around in the morning. Hope you bring in a killer sack of fish.


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## Slamdancer (Aug 6, 2008)

The government needs to transition Snapper to a sport fish and eliminate the monopolies they have granted to the current commercial & charter reef fish permit holders. Open up the charter permits to all licensed captains, promote free enterprise and competition. Recreational sport fishing offers the states a much better return on the limited resource than does commercial fishing. See you in the pass.


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## jdgator (Apr 16, 2014)

Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions is in favor of shutting down the Marine Fisheries Commission. Florida Senator Bill Nelson is in favor of shutting down the commission as well. Florida Senator Marco Rubio is beginning to listen. Some of us have been quietly assembling an impressive list of senators and representatives from both sides of the isle, from every state from Florida to Texas, who in favor in of ending the commission. The only congressional roadblock is Mississippi Senator Thad Cochran, who likely won't be around much longer.

Some of us no longer interested in working with organizations developed to support the commercial harvest of a species. We are going to level up and force a national conversation about commercial exploitation of game fish to the detriment of the average angler. We'll have the finances to out-lobby and out-communicate the opposition.

It is a chess game. Just because the good guys aren't telegraphing their moves doesn't mean that they aren't preparing for play and win.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Are you talking about the Gulf/Atlantic Marine Fisheries Commissions or the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS)?


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## jdgator (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm talking about overhauling the Magnuson–Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act. 

By the way, I'm in Atlanta today for business. It just so happens that there is a senate republican primary race. The favored candidate, Jack Kingston, is a friend of recreational anglers. As a congressman he co-sponsored the following bill (supported by the recreational fishing alliance):

H.R.3307 - To direct the Secretary of Commerce to conduct a study of the population of the South Atlantic red snapper fishery, and to limit the authority of the Secretary to promulgate any interim rule that prohibits fishing in the South Atlantic red snapper fishery.

I had a quick conversation with a Kingston aide yesterday. It appears that Mr. Kingston wants to see his beloved Georgia coastal communities valued for their recreational opportunities. He'll cooperate.

I only add this as illustration of the fact that we are beginning to stack the deck in favor of sportsman.


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## LopeAlong (May 23, 2011)

I think everyone in this thread should go out and buy Fairwater and I case of beer for helping get amendment 28 tabled. If it had gone through the way they have the payback provisions there will never again be a red snapper season under status quo management.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

LopeAlong said:


> I think everyone in this thread should go out and buy Fairwater and I case of beer for helping get amendment 28 tabled. If it had gone through the way they have the payback provisions there will never again be a red snapper season under status quo management.


Before anyone buys anyone anything, why don't you guys detail how your supposed "solution" is any better for the private recs than Amendment 28? EXACTLY why is your plan any better than what the private recs have now?

Looks like there will probably be no red snapper season next year due to Ard & Co's lawsuit against the states, so spare us the self gratulatory BS.


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## billin (Oct 14, 2007)

*wow someone with common sense......I was wondering if any of you had any.*









The government needs to transition Snapper to a sport fish and eliminate the monopolies they have granted to the current commercial & charter reef fish permit holders. Open up the charter permits to all licensed captains, promote free enterprise and competition. Recreational sport fishing offers the states a much better return on the limited resource than does commercial fishing. See you in the pass. 

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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Tom Hilton said:


> Before anyone buys anyone anything, why don't you guys detail how your supposed "solution" is any better for the private recs than Amendment 28? EXACTLY why is your plan any better than what the private recs have now?
> 
> Looks like there will probably be no red snapper season next year due to Ard & Co's lawsuit against the states, so spare us the self gratulatory BS.


Pretty simple really. Amendment 28 is no solution! More fish may give a few more days but they will be sucked up instantly and in a year we will be at the same place we are at now. Even if the recreational sector had ALL the quota we would just have maybe a month under the current fish management plan. Amendment 28 does not have any real accountability measures other than buffers and payback provisions. Pay back provisions is what totally shut down the Atlantic coast to all bottom fishing, don't believe any of us want that. What we all need is a new fish management plan! Once we get our new fish management plans then Amendment 28 can be fully supported and will complement the new plans.

I believe that they should go back and push amendment 39 regional management and give the fish to the states, and let the states deal with the pure recreational side. That amendment is finished and ready to go, all they have to hash out is the allocation to the states, if not for the State of Texas lying on there numbers for ever, this would already be done. For this to work the States will have to work on some real accountability issues but hey thats for them to work on, but hey with RFA and CCA on your side how can you lose. Right? 

Amendment 40 Sector Separation as you know will be a lot like the commercial FMP, every fish will be accounted for with electronic monitoring and data. This will end overfishing on this side of the sector. Each boat will have an IFQ and when its caught up its caught up and your done catching that fish. Hilton the allocation will probably be based off of the permits, and the numbers of anglers on the permits, not what they have caught in the past, so NO your Texas charter boats will not get screwed.

For Regional Management or Sector Separation to really work 407d must be removed or changed in the M/S act so each state can truly act independent from each other, so when one state reaches there quota, just that state can be shut down and the other states can continue to fish. Same for the CFH, so they can use there quota even after the recreational side has caught all of there quota.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

How do we know what percentage of the recreational tac breakout is accurate. How do we know if the true private boater effort were to be known that a fair and accurate breakout is not 80 percent charter 20 percent private or 80 percent private 20 percent charter?


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## DI 310 (Jun 17, 2012)

http://www.courierjournal.net/online_only/article_9c560d4a-02f0-11e4-9a96-0019bb2963f4.html


Check these numbers out about how many snapper were landed in Alabama during the federal season-Now how will these 
compare with MRIP when those numbers come out ??


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> Amendment 40 Sector Separation as you know will be a lot like the commercial FMP, every fish will be accounted for with electronic monitoring and data. This will end overfishing on this side of the sector. Each boat will have an IFQ and when its caught up its caught up and your done catching that fish. Hilton the allocation will probably be based off of the permits, and the numbers of anglers on the permits, not what they have caught in the past, so NO your Texas charter boats will not get screwed.


So, if Amendment 40 Sector Separation is such a great deal, then why not start talking specifics instead of feel-good enviro-scripted propaganda, that makes plenty of claims without any substantive info to support such claims?

Give us a hypothetical scenario of what would happen with Texas charterboats since YOU claim they will not get screwed - show us why they will not get screwed. What are the numbers? Are you Alabama boys going to want to give up a portion of your slice of the pie since Texas has been apparently under-reporting and therefore reality dictates that Texas boats should receive more fish than the historical figures indicate? Show us the data that your EDF benefactors MUST have locked away somewhere because I don't see it.

Additionally, since you guys are slicing off a sizable portion of OUR recreational quota, then give us a hypothetical scenario of how Sector Separation will affect everyone else outside of your profit grab? 

You mention electronic tags for the private recs - if electronic tags are such a GREAT solution, then why don't YOU want to use them Ard? 

How will the number of tags be determined when you nor Roy nor anyone else can give us any idea of how many recreational fishermen go fishing for red snapper or how many times they go?

Waiting for the excuse of WHY you can't provide such data to support your claims Ard....

According to the DNR, the entire state of Alabama landed about 300,000 pounds of red snapper this year, and you guys want the Gulf Council to give your Alabama Charterboat EFP 366,000 pounds each of the next 2 years. Does this sound right to ANYONE here?

You guys want the Gulf Council to gift you 47% of OUR fish, citing figures that were based on about 1,600 vessels fishing - now there are about 1,200 vessels fishing for red snapper in the Gulf for-hire industry - looks to me you are laying claim to about 1/3 more fish than you deserve. *The number that the Gulf Council should be looking at, especially if you look at the most recent years, should be closer to about 30% - not 47%.*


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

*Give us a hypothetical scenario of what would happen with Texas charterboats since YOU claim they will not get screwed - show us why they will not get screwed. What are the numbers? Are you Alabama boys going to want to give up a portion of your slice of the pie since Texas has been apparently under-reporting and therefore reality dictates that Texas boats should receive more fish than the historical figures indicate? Show us the data that your EDF benefactors MUST have locked away somewhere because I don't see it.*

All Federal CFH permits have a number of anglers the permit is good for. 6 packs are good for 6 people. Over flow or multi-passengers like mine has different numbers, most based off of COI, so like mine its for 22 anglers. The allocation could be based off of these numbers and it will be fair for every Charter Boat no matter what state or how much they have fished in the past. So no Texas Charter boat will be left out or shorted.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

*You mention electronic tags for the private recs - if electronic tags are such a GREAT solution, then why don't YOU want to use them Ard? *

We will be using Electronic Tags working off our individual Quota of fish.


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

*Additionally, since you guys are slicing off a sizable portion of OUR recreational quota, then give us a hypothetical scenario of how Sector Separation will affect everyone else outside of your profit grab? *

First it will still all be Recreational Quota, I personally can not keep fish nor can I sell fish. Our side will be set aside for the rest of the American public that do not own boats. I guess the rest is up to y'all to decide, but I would like to see Amendment 39 get pasted and allot it to the states to use as they will.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

Fairwaterfishing said:


> *Give us a hypothetical scenario of what would happen with Texas charterboats since YOU claim they will not get screwed - show us why they will not get screwed. What are the numbers? Are you Alabama boys going to want to give up a portion of your slice of the pie since Texas has been apparently under-reporting and therefore reality dictates that Texas boats should receive more fish than the historical figures indicate? Show us the data that your EDF benefactors MUST have locked away somewhere because I don't see it.*
> 
> All Federal CFH permits have a number of anglers the permit is good for. 6 packs are good for 6 people. Over flow or multi-passengers like mine has different numbers, most based off of COI, so like mine its for 22 anglers. The allocation could be based off of these numbers and it will be fair for every Charter Boat no matter what state or how much they have fished in the past. So no Texas Charter boat will be left out or shorted.


OK, nice vague answer.

Base your numbers on a 5.5 million pound rec TAC.

Best case scenario for you; 47% of 5.5 million pounds = 2,585,000 pounds converted to tags based on an average of 8 pounds each = 323,125 fish.

Headboats get What? About 1/3 of the for-hire allocation? That's 106,631 fish. The Headboat EFP got over 55,000 fish for 17 boats out 75 headboats that fish for red snapper - that leaves about 51,000 fish to be divvied up between the other 58 boats - doesn't add up, does it?

Charterboats get what? About 2/3s? That's 216,500 fish. 216,500 / 1100 charterboats = about 196 fish per boat. 196 divided by 10 fish per boat (5 limits of snapper) = 19.6 trips.

Meanwhile, the private recs get left twisting in the wind.

GREAT plan.


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## markw4321 (Oct 4, 2007)

Tom Hilton said:


> OK, nice vague answer.
> 
> Base your numbers on a 5.5 million pound rec TAC.
> 
> ...


That math appears to check out....doesn't seem like a panacea to me in terms of fishing days and serving "customers". Maybe it's about "owning fish" @"after all.

The head boats in the exemption plan got more that the should have. I mean after all they wanted the pilot to be a predetermined success so they could ram through sector separation. After all that's how,it works when your setting your own table....


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

Just how many trips did we get this year?


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## Fairwaterfishing (Mar 17, 2009)

It's going to zero Hilton and fast, then they will shut down the gulf to all bottom fishing, due to payback provisions. Same as the Atlantic side


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## Chet88 (Feb 20, 2008)

You can kiss the Federal Snapper season goodbye for years to come. With Alabama going non compliant and extending its waters to 9 miles its over.


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## jgraham154 (Jul 15, 2008)

I hope they shut it down too.


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## Tom Hilton (Oct 4, 2007)

All I am asking for is a projected outcome of what would happen if and when Sector Separation is implemented and specifically how it would affect the private recs, but again, nothing.

Looks to me we are facing a total shutdown for the majority of red snapper fishermen in the Gulf whether we stay at status quo or go to Sector Separation because it's really not about managing the fish now is it? *It's about converting our PUBLIC TRUST RESOURCE into private commodities.*

Let's see what has transpired this far;
286,457 pounds have already been sliced off and gifted to the Headboat EFP (17 headboats). *That's 16,850 pounds per boat.*
366,000 pounds is what they are looking to give to the Alabama Charterboat Cooperative (90 boats). *That's 4,067 pounds per boat.*

There are about 1,200 for-hire boats in the Gulf that fish for red snapper. 47% of 5.5 million pounds = 2,585,000 pounds / 1200 boats = *2,154 pounds per boat.* The numbers do not add up in any way, form, or fashion.

*Looks like these EFPs are designed to make this For-hire IFQ concept look a LOT better than it REALLY is. These EFPs are hardly a fair representation of what would ACTUALLY happen with for-hire IFQs.*

Some of the leaders of The Charter Fisherman's Association have already admitted that the result of their plan will be a *REDUCTION* of the charter fleet, eliminating their competitors, and giving themselves a *LARGER* piece of the pie. Start to look for qualifiers to participate in the for-hire IFQ program - income requirements, those who have "substantially fished", etc. etc. These so-called leaders of the charter industry are leading their brethren like sheep to the slaughter, feeding them misinformation in order to gain their support for a plan that will actually end up forcing them out of the fishery.

Ard has already admitted that they have already filed *ANOTHER* lawsuit, which I am fairly sure that will mean even further restrictions on the Gulf recreational red snapper fishermen. What we have here is the enviro $$ dictating our fisheries policy via lawsuits to FORCE their profit-grab agenda, and to hell with everyone else.

This is no solution to our fisheries problems - this is Armageddon for our children's fisheries future. It's time to hold all of these scam artists accountable and kick them out of our fisheries management.


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